From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 00:22:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430205944.00d8d7d8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > At 11:41 AM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >I doubt anyone would get too soggy and hard to light. Who _does_ own the > >MITS copyrights and patents now? (Though I think all of the patents have > >expired, copyrights now extend unto at _least_ the third generation.) > > Well... First MITS was acquired by Pertec, who proceeded to run the whole > computer line straight into the ground. > > Later, Pertec was bought by Triumph-Adler in Germany. > > I've wanted to run a few similar questions by them, but have found no easy > means of communication so far... Try e-mail. I'm sure you may get lucky and find them in a search engine. Or try posting on some german newsgroups. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 00:38:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just checked out Scott Walde's web page. I looked at basement.jpg and here are my observations: Starting from the very back, that is either a Commodore 128, Amiga 500 or some newer Atari. The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. Oh, and an oscilliscope (my guess is Tektronix). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 1 01:24:00 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:11 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970430205944.00d8d7d8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430232400.0070f1f0@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:22 PM 4/30/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >> Later, Pertec was bought by Triumph-Adler in Germany. >> >> I've wanted to run a few similar questions by them, but have found no easy >> means of communication so far... > >Try e-mail. I'm sure you may get lucky and find them in a search >engine. Or try posting on some german newsgroups. Oh, I had no trouble finding them... Now, getting a response out of them is a whole 'nother matter... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 1 01:30:26 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:12 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430233026.007107a8@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:38 PM 4/30/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I just checked out Scott Walde's web page. I looked at basement.jpg and >here are my observations: > >Starting from the very back, that is either a Commodore 128, Amiga 500 or >some newer Atari. Atari ST1024? >The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, >Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business >Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then >below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. You forgot the two dual Commodore PET disk drive units, and the four TRS-80 single mini-disk units holding up the scope... >Oh, and an oscilliscope (my guess is Tektronix). Heathkit? (or an older single channel Tek) ...and the PCjr has the later model keyboard... No chicklets??? ...and one on its side near the left lower third of the pic that I can't ID... (bad angle) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 00:22:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430205944.00d8d7d8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > At 11:41 AM 4/30/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >I doubt anyone would get too soggy and hard to light. Who _does_ own the > >MITS copyrights and patents now? (Though I think all of the patents have > >expired, copyrights now extend unto at _least_ the third generation.) > > Well... First MITS was acquired by Pertec, who proceeded to run the whole > computer line straight into the ground. > > Later, Pertec was bought by Triumph-Adler in Germany. > > I've wanted to run a few similar questions by them, but have found no easy > means of communication so far... Try e-mail. I'm sure you may get lucky and find them in a search engine. Or try posting on some german newsgroups. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 00:38:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:19 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just checked out Scott Walde's web page. I looked at basement.jpg and here are my observations: Starting from the very back, that is either a Commodore 128, Amiga 500 or some newer Atari. The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. Oh, and an oscilliscope (my guess is Tektronix). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 1 01:24:00 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970430205944.00d8d7d8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430232400.0070f1f0@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:22 PM 4/30/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >> Later, Pertec was bought by Triumph-Adler in Germany. >> >> I've wanted to run a few similar questions by them, but have found no easy >> means of communication so far... > >Try e-mail. I'm sure you may get lucky and find them in a search >engine. Or try posting on some german newsgroups. Oh, I had no trouble finding them... Now, getting a response out of them is a whole 'nother matter... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 1 01:30:26 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970430233026.007107a8@agora.rdrop.com> At 10:38 PM 4/30/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I just checked out Scott Walde's web page. I looked at basement.jpg and >here are my observations: > >Starting from the very back, that is either a Commodore 128, Amiga 500 or >some newer Atari. Atari ST1024? >The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, >Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business >Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then >below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. You forgot the two dual Commodore PET disk drive units, and the four TRS-80 single mini-disk units holding up the scope... >Oh, and an oscilliscope (my guess is Tektronix). Heathkit? (or an older single channel Tek) ...and the PCjr has the later model keyboard... No chicklets??? ...and one on its side near the left lower third of the pic that I can't ID... (bad angle) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu May 1 02:33:14 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supply Message-ID: <3368473A.78E8@oboe.calpoly.edu> Was someone looking for an Atari power supply? I have one for the 400/800. Output 9V AC, 31 VA. I don't have any Atari computers left so whoever wants it it's $7 including postage. Greg From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 08:36:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3368473A.78E8@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Greg Mast wrote: > Was someone looking for an Atari power supply? I have one for the > 400/800. Output 9V AC, 31 VA. > > I don't have any Atari computers left so whoever wants it it's $7 > including postage. $7 + postage? Take it to auction web. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 08:35:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430233026.007107a8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, > >Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business > >Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then > >below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. > > You forgot the two dual Commodore PET disk drive units, and the four TRS-80 > single mini-disk units holding up the scope... I conveniently ignored those. I knew they were probably PET drives but never seen them before and didn't know for sure. > ...and one on its side near the left lower third of the pic that I can't > ID... (bad angle) Me niether. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at mail.northernway.net Thu May 1 08:59:35 1997 From: zmerch at mail.northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 1 May 1997, Greg Mast wrote: > > > Was someone looking for an Atari power supply? I have one for the > > 400/800. Output 9V AC, 31 VA. > > > > I don't have any Atari computers left so whoever wants it it's $7 > > including postage. > > $7 + postage? Take it to auction web. Sam, He states $7.00 *including* postage... and with the weight of the thing, it would prolly cost $1 to pack and $4 to ship, leaving not much of a profit, if that's what you seem so upset about with your terse statement. Please fully read the posts before replying like this... remember we're all family here! ;-) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From scott at saskatoon.com Thu May 1 09:07:19 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) Message-ID: <199705011404.IAA03042@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > Atari ST1024? Getting warmer... > >The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, > >Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business > >Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then > >below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. You'll have to be more careful with the Commodore machines. (You should be able to be more accurate, even without seeing the nameplate.) > You forgot the two dual Commodore PET disk drive units, and the four TRS-80 > single mini-disk units holding up the scope... It's pretty hard to tell the models of drives, they're a 2040 and a 8250. > >Oh, and an oscilliscope (my guess is Tektronix). > > Heathkit? (or an older single channel Tek) There's nothing really classic about the scope. It's a two channel 20Mhz Iwatsu. (No, I've never heard of them before either.) > ...and the PCjr has the later model keyboard... No chicklets??? No, and the monitor doesn't vertical lock. You have to keep playing with the hold knob :-( > ...and one on its side near the left lower third of the pic that I can't > ID... (bad angle) I've never really considered that one a part of my collection, although I think it now officially qualifies for this list. (i.e. 10 years old.) BIG HINT... it's the first 386 built by the company that, at the time was one of the biggest clone manufacturers around. There are plenty other (non-clone) machines by the same company in this picture. There are four machines barely exposed in the lower right corner, that I don't expect anyone to ID. There are, however, two very distinct original boxes. One under the atari, and one under the middle commodore machine. There's also all the stuff sitting on top of the commodore machines. Super bonus marks to anyone who can ID the thing on top of the scope. (No, it's not really computer related.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From gram at cnct.com Thu May 1 09:54:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) In-Reply-To: <199705011404.IAA03042@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > of the commodore machines. Super bonus marks to anyone who can ID > the thing on top of the scope. (No, it's not really computer related.) Looks like some kind of a slide viewer from here, but it's small enough that pixilation interferes with identification. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 12:39:15 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Computers in shot (RE: yo) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B6BFC3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Starting from the very back, that is either a Commodore 128, Amiga 500 > or > some newer Atari. > Atari ST, you can tell by the monitor. The Amiga 500 is in the box. > The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+ > Or II > Apple //e > Very probable given the monitor > Commodore Pet > CBM 2001 specifically > Commodore CBM Professional Business Computer > Either a CBM 2001 full size keyboard or a 4000 series. > Commodore PET 2001 > Probably an 8000 series > Macintosh (128? 512?) > Impossible to tell the difference visually without looking at the back Plus, the two TRS-80 model I's with expansion interfaces on top of the first two PETs, and some kind of probable microprocessor trainer to the left of the Altair. Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 12:49:57 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B6BFD8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Scott Walde[SMTP:scott@saskatoon.com] > | > Atari ST1024? | Getting warmer... Hmm, must be a 520. | BIG HINT... it's the first 386 built by the company | that, at the time was one of the biggest clone manufacturers around. | There are plenty other (non-clone) machines by the same company in | this picture. Aha - Tandy 4000, right? | There are four machines barely exposed in the lower right corner, | that I don't expect anyone to ID. I'm going out on a limb here... under the PCjr, an IBM PC? And under the Model III... would you have another Model III? Probably not... is it a Model IV? There's another Atari ST box, and something on its side by the Model III that could be a CoCo 1. | There are, however, two very | distinct original boxes. One under the atari, and one under the | middle commodore machine. Under the Atari, an Amiga 500. The box under the PET is an AST PC clone box... Premium 286? From zmerch at mail.northernway.net Thu May 1 12:58:05 1997 From: zmerch at mail.northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Contest In-Reply-To: <199705010359.VAA09570@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I can fill in some of the missing pieces: From scott at saskatoon.com Thu May 1 13:02:08 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B6BFD8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > | distinct original boxes. One under the atari, and one under >the > | middle commodore machine. > >The box under the PET is an AST PC clone box... Premium 286? Actually, there is a small red and black box in the AST box. That's the one I'm talking about. ttfn srw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 1 15:54:10 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! Message-ID: Hi all. After getting your numerous recommendations on the last version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base RAM, Primary OS, and Class. I carry it with me when I go hunting - hopefully it will be useful to you too. As always - I'd love to hear from you with additions or corrections. This list is currently quite weak when it comes to pre-'78 machines, minis and bigger computers. I'm sure that just the DEC section should be three times as long. My resources only go so far ;). --- The Big List of Classic Computers Last Rev: 4/30/97 This list is compiled from various sources: fliers, magazines, ads, manuals, and price books. The information is as acurate as the original sources. I have removed PCs and clones from this list - they were taking up too much space. I may put together a separate PC list in the future. This list does not include game consoles, calculators, or word processors. If you have anything to add or revise, contact Bill Whitson (e-mail bill@booster.u.washington.edu). MODEL is the manufacturers model number. CPU indicates the type of CPU. RAM is the amount of RAM installed in a base unit. OS is the primary operating system or OS delivered with the unit. ADOS 3.X = Apple II DOS v3.x AMIGAOS = Amiga Operating System AMOS = Alpha-Microsystems Operating System ATRDOS = Atari Built-In OS CBMOS = Commodore Built-In OS CP/M = CP/M-80, CP/M-86, CP/M-68K, MP/M, etc... CROMIX = Cromemco CROMIX FLEX = FLEX GS/OS = Apple IIgs Operating System LOS = LISA Office System MACOS = MacOS OS/9 = OS/9 PRODOS16 = Apple 16bit ProDOS PRODOS8 = Apple 8bit ProDOS SOS = Apple III DOS TDOS = TurboDOS TOS = Atari ST Operating System UNIX = Any true UNIX variant TYPE is the class of computer MAIN = Computers physically larger than 2m x 2m x 2m MINI = Computers physically larger than 1m x 1m x 1m or which are composed of separate subsystems. MICRO = Single unit machines smaller than 1m x 1m x 1m PORT. = Portable (Lugabble, Laptop, Notebook, Handheld) units. YEAR is when the computer was first produced. ================================================================== MANUFACTURER MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR ================================================================== Acorn------------------------------------------------------------- Atom 6502 4K ?? MICRO 80 Bus. Comp. Model 100 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 110 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 200 6502 w/32016 512K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 210 6502 w/32016 4MB ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 300 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 310 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model PA 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Terminal 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 Electron 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 Master 65C02 128K ?? MICRO 86 Model A 6502 16K ?? MICRO 81 Model B 6502 32K ?? MICRO 82 Model B+ 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 Proton 6502 16K ?? MICRO 81 System 1 6502 1K ?? MICRO 79 System 2 6502 32k ?? MICRO 80 Automated Computer Systems---------------------------------------- 4040 MC 4040 64K CP/M MICRO 78 8080 MC 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 8080 MCS 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 8080 MPU 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 8080/Z80 8008 w/Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Z80 MCS Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 81 Z80 MCS Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Action Computer Enterprise, Inc.---------------------------------- Discovery 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Discovery 1600 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Actrix Computers-------------------------------------------------- DSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 SSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Adra Systems------------------------------------------------------ Model 1000 68020 2.5MB ?? MICRO 86 Model 3000 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 Advanced Digital Corporation-------------------------------------- Super System II ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 SuperStar ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 Alcyon------------------------------------------------------------ APS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 APS/RMS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 APX 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 Alpha Info Systems------------------------------------------------ Model 100 8085 1MB ?? ?? 77 Model 100T 8085 1MB ?? ?? 79 Alpha MicroSystems------------------------------------------------ AM-680C 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 AM-680M 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 AM-1000 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 82 AM-1000E 68000 256K AMOS MICRO 83 AM-1000X 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 ALSPA Computer---------------------------------------------------- ACI-1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 ACI-2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Zero Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Altos Computer Systems-------------------------------------------- 3068 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 3068 EP 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 580-2 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 580-20 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 680-40 68000 ?? ?? MICRO 85 8000-10 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 8000-12 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 8000-14 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 Advanced Micro Devices-------------------------------------------- Model 96/4116 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 80 Ampere, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ WS1A 68000 64K ?? MICRO 85 WS1B 68000 256K ?? MICRO 85 Amstrad----------------------------------------------------------- CPC464 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 84 CPC664 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 85 CPC6128 Z80A 128K AMSDOS MICRO 85 PCW8256 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 85 PCW8512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 86 PCW9512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 87 APF Electronics--------------------------------------------------- IM1 6800 8K ?? MICRO 80 Apollo Computer--------------------------------------------------- 400/420 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Domain ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Apple Computer, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Apple II 6502 16K ADOS 3.X MICRO 77 Apple II+ 6502 48K ADOS 3.X MICRO 81 Apple IIc 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 85 Apple IIc+ 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 86 Apple IIe 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 82 Apple IIgs (ROM 01) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 86 Apple IIgs (ROM 02) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 87 Apple IIgs (ROM 03) 65C816 1.25MB GS/OS MICRO 88 Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 Apple III+ 6502 256K SOS MICRO 84 Lisa 1 68000 1MB LOS MICRO 83 Lisa 2 68000 512K LOS MICRO 84 Macintosh 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO 84 Macintosh 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 Macintosh Plus 68010 1MB MACOS MICRO 86 Macintosh Plus Enh. 68010 512K MACOS MICRO 86 Macintosh XL 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 Applied Digital Data Systems-------------------------------------- Multivision 1 8085 64k CP/M MICRO 80 Multivision 2 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Multivision 3 8085 192K CP/M MICRO 81 Applied Electronics----------------------------------------------- Model 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Applied Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- ASC 68000 68000 64K ?? MICRO 83 ASC Portable 8088 w/8085 32K ?? PORT. 83 AT&T-------------------------------------------------------------- 3704-040 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 3704-045 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 3704-065 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 3B2/300 WE32000 1MB UNIX MINI 86 3B2/400 WE32100 2MB UNIX MINI 86 7300A1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO 86 7300A2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 7300B1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO 86 7300D1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO 86 7300E2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 Atari------------------------------------------------------------- 1040ST 68010 512K TOS MICRO 85 1200XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 82 130XE 6502C 128K ATRDOS MICRO 85 400 6502 16K ATRDOS MICRO 79 520ST 68000 512K TOS MICRO 85 600XL 6502C 16K ATRDOS MICRO 83 65XE 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 85 800 6502 48K ATRDOS MICRO 79 800XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 83 Mega 2 68000 2MB ?? MICRO 87 Mega 4 68000 4MB ?? MICRO 87 XE Game System 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 87 Auragen Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- System 4000 68010 ?? ?? ?? 84 Barreto Associates------------------------------------------------ MicroMaster Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Barrington International------------------------------------------ Elite Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Barrister Info Systems-------------------------------------------- Law Office Manager Z80 ?? ?? ?? 75 Basis------------------------------------------------------------- Model 108 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 80 BBN Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ C60 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 80 C70 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 81 Beehive Corp.----------------------------------------------------- The Topper Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Bell Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- Model 4 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 Bell and Howell--------------------------------------------------- Model 78400 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 78401 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 78402 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 3016D 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 3032D 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 Model 3048D 6502 48K ?? MICRO 83 Berkel Systems---------------------------------------------------- Model 4410 6502 16K ?? MICRO 74 Billings Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- System 500 II Z80 56K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000B Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000 II Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000 X Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000 XII Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 BC-12FD Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 79 BlackHawk Computers----------------------------------------------- BlackHawk 3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 BlackHawk 4 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 BMC, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- BMC-800 Model 20C Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 BMC-800 Model 20G Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Bondwell Computers------------------------------------------------ BW2 Z80C 64K CP/M MICRO 85 BW12 Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 85 BW14 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 BW16 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 BOS Systems------------------------------------------------------- BOS-M Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 81 Cyte 86 Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 82 BTI Computer Systems---------------------------------------------- BTI 4800 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? ?? 84 BTI 5000 Mark II Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 BTI 5000/ES Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 BTI 6000 Z80 W/8088 128K ?? ?? 84 BTI 8000 BTI8000 24MB ?? ?? 85 Burroughs Corp.--------------------------------------------------- B1800 Z80 w/80186 64K ?? MICRO 83 B1910 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 83 B1913 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 83 OW400 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 CADO Systems------------------------------------------------------ CAT III 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 System 20/20 8085 48K ?? MICRO 78 System 20/28 8085 96K ?? MICRO 83 CCG--------------------------------------------------------------- Micro 11 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 Ultra 11/730 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra 11/750 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra PDP 11/44 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra PDP 11/73 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra PDP 11/23 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 California Computer Systems--------------------------------------- Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Model 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 200 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 System 300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 System 400 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 System 410 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 System 420 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Callan Data Systems----------------------------------------------- CD 100 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 81 CD 100M 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 UniStar 100 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 UniStar 200 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 UniStar 300 NS16032 512K UNIX ?? 84 Canaan Computer Corp.--------------------------------------------- 5410Z ?? ?? ?? ?? 85 5412-P1 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 5412-P2 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Canon, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- TX-10/15 6809 16K ?? MICRO 80 Casio, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- FX-9000 6809 4K ?? MICRO 83 Computer Consoles, Inc.------------------------------------------- Power 5/20 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Control Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ Cyber 18 6809 16K ?? MICRO 76 Model 110 6809 64K ?? MICRO 83 Computer Enhancement Corp.---------------------------------------- CE Micro 1 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Centurion Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ Model 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 5200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Model 5300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Model 6100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 6200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 6300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 6400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 6500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 7100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 9200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Micro Plus ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Century Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- System 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 System 400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 System 700 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 System 900 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 Vanguard 8000 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Vanguard 8200 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Vanguard 8500 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 X1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 X2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 Challenge Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- CS1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Charles River Data Systems---------------------------------------- Universe 32/115T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 Universe 32/137T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 Universe 32/35 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 Universe 65/115T 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 Universe 68/05 68000 256K ?? ?? 82 Universe 68/137T 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Universe 68/67 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 Universe 68/35 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Universe 2402 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 Universe 2403 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Charter Information Corp.----------------------------------------- System 4 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 CIE Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- 680/20 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 680/30-10 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 680/35 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 680/40 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 680/50 68020 1MB ?? ?? 87 680/100 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 680/150 68020 8MB ?? ?? 87 680/200 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 CMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- SuperSystem 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 SuperSystem 2 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Codex Corporation------------------------------------------------- Model 268/21 68000 ?? ?? MICRO 83 Model 268/24 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 Model 268/44 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 Colby Computer---------------------------------------------------- MacColby 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO 84 MacColby 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 Coleco Industries, Inc.------------------------------------------- ADAM Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 Colonial Data Services-------------------------------------------- SB80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Columbia Data Products-------------------------------------------- Commander 500 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander 964 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander F64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander FX Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander M64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Comark Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Disktor M1 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Disktor M3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 Disktor Q ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 MB 85/285 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 79 Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 16 6510 16K ?? MICRO 84 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 CBM 3008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 4004 6502 4K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 4008 6502 8K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 4016 6502 16K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 4032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 8008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 8096 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8296 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM SP9000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? Executive 64 6510 64K CBMOS PORT. 83 PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 Plus 4 6510 64K ?? MICRO 84 SuperPET 6502 w/6809 96K ?? MICRO 81 VIC-20 6502 5K ?? MICRO 81 Compal Computer Systems------------------------------------------- 8200+ Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Electric Briefcase Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 EZ Type Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 83 CompTech---------------------------------------------------------- EVE II 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 CompuCorp--------------------------------------------------------- Model 745 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 799 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 Compupro Systems-------------------------------------------------- MP-10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO 83 System 816/10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/A 8085 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 82 System 816/B 8085 w/8088 256K CP/M MICRO 82 System 816/C 8085 w/8088 512K CP/M MICRO 82 System 816/E 68000 256K CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/G ?? 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/GG Z80 w/68000 512K CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/Z Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 84 The Computerist--------------------------------------------------- Focus 6809 30K FLEX MICRO 82 Covergent Technologies-------------------------------------------- MiniFrame 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 MiniFrame Plus 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 MightyFrame 68020 1MB ?? MICRO 86 Cortex Systems---------------------------------------------------- Microdent 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Microdent 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Cromemco, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- C10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 CS-1 Z80 w/68000 256K CROMIX MICRO 82 CS100 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 85 CS110 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 86 CS115 68020 2MB UNIX MICRO 87 CS120 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 CS200 68010 1MB ?? MINI 86 CS220 68020 2MB ?? MINI 86 CS300 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 CS400 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 CS420 68020 4MB ?? MINI 86 D System 1 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 82 D System 100 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 D System 3 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 83 D System 300 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 Z System 0 Z80 1MB ?? MICRO 82 Z System 1 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 82 Z System 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Z System 3 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 CYB Systems------------------------------------------------------- MultiBox I 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 MultiBox II 68000 768K UNIX ?? 82 Cyberchron-------------------------------------------------------- C21 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 C41 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 C45 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 CDS-201 68000 64K ?? ?? 79 CDS-231 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 Data General Corp------------------------------------------------- CB/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CEO ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 CS/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 CS/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 CS/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 CS/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 CS/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 CS/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Eclipse C/150 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Eclipse C/350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Eclipse MV/4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Eclipse S/120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Eclipse S/130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Eclipse S/140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Eclipse S/250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Eclipse S/280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Enterprise 1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Enterprise 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 MPT/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 MPT/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Nova 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Nova 4 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datamac Computer Systems------------------------------------------ Series 1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Datapoint Corp.--------------------------------------------------- Model 1560 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Model 8600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 8800 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 81 Series 1800 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Series 4000 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Series 6600 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 Datavue Corp.----------------------------------------------------- 80/100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 80/200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 80/300 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 80/400 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 83 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 DEC--------------------------------------------------------------- Correspondent ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 150 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 208 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Datasystem 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 315 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 320 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 336 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 356 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 512 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 DECMate II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Micro/PDP-11 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 MicroVAX I ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 PDP-11/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 PDP-11/24 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 PDP-11/34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 PDP-11/44 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 PDP-11/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 Professional 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Professional 325 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Professional 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Professional 380 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Rainbow 100 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Rainbow 100+ Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Robin ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 VAX-11/730 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 VAX-11/750 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Deltadata Systems Corp.------------------------------------------- D8000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Micro Manager Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Delta Products Inc.----------------------------------------------- Delta One Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Delta Two Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Delta Four Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 83 DP/Net ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 DP/125 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 83 Digicomp Research------------------------------------------------- System 100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Digidyne---------------------------------------------------------- 5832 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 5864 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 Series 200 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Digital Microsystems---------------------------------------------- DMS-3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 DMS-4 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 80 DMS-15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 DMS-86 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 DMS-1280 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 DMS-5080 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 DMS-5086 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Digital Technology------------------------------------------------ Model 580 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Digitex----------------------------------------------------------- Model 7100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 7200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 7300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 7500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Dimension Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ 1000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 1020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 2010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 3010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 3020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 Direct, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 1025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 1031 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Display Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ Insight Z80 64K ?? ?? 74 DMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- Commfile Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 78 Docutel----------------------------------------------------------- BCS 2025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 BCS 2030 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 DC-M18 68000 100K MS-DOS MICRO 84 M10 8085 8K ?? PORT. 84 M20 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 P6060 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 77 S6000 Z8000 64K ?? MICRO 81 DTC--------------------------------------------------------------- 710 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 A22 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 83 B23 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 82 Micro 210A 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Micro 210B 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Data Technology Industries---------------------------------------- Associate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 79 Dual Systems Control Corp.---------------------------------------- 83/20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 83/80 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 83/500 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 Durango Systems Inc.---------------------------------------------- 800 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 79 800XR 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 900 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 910 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Dynabyte Business Computers--------------------------------------- 6600 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 6900 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Monarch 6000 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Eagle Computer Inc.----------------------------------------------- Eagle IIE Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Eagle III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Eagle IV Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 ECS Microsystems-------------------------------------------------- ECS 4500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 ECS 4650 Z80 80K CP/M MICRO 82 EEC Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- Micropower/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Micropower/W ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Elan Computers---------------------------------------------------- Enterprise 64 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Enterprise 128 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 84 Epic Computers---------------------------------------------------- Episode 2296 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Epson, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- Geneva PX-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 HX-20 Z80 16K ?? PORT. 83 QX-10 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 QX-16 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 84 Esprit Computer Products------------------------------------------ Model S1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model S1016 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model S1500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model S1516 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model S1800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Model 900 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 ETR, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- Star System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Eve Computers----------------------------------------------------- Eve II PC 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 Eve Portable 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X PORT. 84 Evolution Computer Systems---------------------------------------- Model 140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 160 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 240 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 260 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Exo Systems------------------------------------------------------- System 5 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 8 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 58 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Exxon Office Systems---------------------------------------------- 510 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 520 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 530 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 8400 Series Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Facit, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- Model 6500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 FI Electronics---------------------------------------------------- Series 7240 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 81 Financial Business Computers-------------------------------------- FBC Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Findex------------------------------------------------------------ Model 0X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 0X2 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 9X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 Formation, Inc.--------------------------------------------------- F/4000-101 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 F/4000-201 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 F/4000-301 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 Fortune Systems Corp.--------------------------------------------- 32:16 PS-10 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 32:16 PS-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 32:16 68000 128K UNIX ?? 81 32:16 XP-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 32:16 XP-30 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 Fortune Formula 68020 ?? UNIX ?? 86 SX45 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 SX45T 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 SX70 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 XP45 68000 512K ?? ?? 85 Forward Technology------------------------------------------------ Grpahics Workstation 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 Four-Phase Systems------------------------------------------------ IV/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 IV/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 IV/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 IV/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/65 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/90 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/95 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Franklin Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- Ace 10 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 Ace 1100 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 Ace 1000 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 Ace 1200 6502 w/Z80 128K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 Ace 500 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 Fujitsu, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- Micro 16S Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 83 Garrett Computing Systems----------------------------------------- GSC/440 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 GEAC Computers---------------------------------------------------- System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 General Automation------------------------------------------------ Model 930 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 Model 940 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 Model 950 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 Zebra 700 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 84 Zebra 750 68000 128K XENIX MICRO 84 Zebra 1000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 1500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 2000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 2500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 3000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 3500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 5500 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 General Robotics-------------------------------------------------- BA500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 BA800L ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 Scorpio 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 Super Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 Super Pegasus 68000 64K ?? ?? 77 Super Tristar 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 Hagen Systems----------------------------------------------------- Mark Ten ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Harris Corp.------------------------------------------------------ H60 68000 768K ?? ?? 84 H600 68000 1.5MB ?? ?? 83 H700 68000 384K ?? ?? 82 Model 1640 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 1650 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Heurikon Corp.---------------------------------------------------- HK68 68000 128K UNIX ?? 84 Minibox 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 MLZ Z80 16K ?? ?? 83 Modular Box 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 Hon Computing Systems--------------------------------------------- Hon IV ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Hon V ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Honeywell Bull, Inc.---------------------------------------------- DPS 6/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 DPS 6/45 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Level 6-23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Level 6-33 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 Level 6-37 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Level 6-43 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Level 6-47 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Level 6-53 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Level 6-57 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 System XPS-100-10 68010 512K ?? ?? 86 System XPS-100-20 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 System XPS-100-40 68020 4MB ?? ?? 86 HP---------------------------------------------------------------- HP 1000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 HP 300 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 HP 3000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 HP 85A ?? 16K ?? MICRO 82 HP 85B ?? ?? ?? MICRO 86 HP 86B Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 HP 87XM ?? 128K ?? MICRO 82 HP 9825B ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 HP 9845B ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 HP 9915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Series 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Series 200 68000 512K CP/M MICRO 82 Integrated Business Computers------------------------------------- C-1064R Z80B 64K ?? ?? 84 Cadet Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 Ensign 68010 1MB ?? ?? 84 Ensign 386:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 Ensign 682:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 Ensign Oasis 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Middi-Cadet Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 Middi-Cadet High Perf. Z80H 512K ?? MICRO 84 Multi-Star I Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 Multi-Star II Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 Super Cadet Z80H 320K ?? MICRO 84 System 68 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 IBM--------------------------------------------------------------- 6/430 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 5110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 5120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 8130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 8140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 System 34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 System 36 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 System 38 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 ICL, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- DRS20 8085 w/8088 150K ?? MICRO 82 Immediate Business Systems---------------------------------------- FS 2000 8085 w/8088 32K ?? ?? 83 IMPC-------------------------------------------------------------- Access Matrix Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Impelco----------------------------------------------------------- IMP 800C Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 IMP 816C Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 84 IMS International------------------------------------------------- 5000IS Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 82 5000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 8000S Z80 w/8088 128K TDOS MICRO 81 8000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 Information Devices----------------------------------------------- Micro Plus Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Infotecs, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- Control Center 2 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Innotronics------------------------------------------------------- Model 6100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Intecolor Corporation--------------------------------------------- 3651 8080 32K ?? MICRO 80 8052 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 8352 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 Intelligent Systems----------------------------------------------- Intecolor 8050 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 Intecolor 8064 8080 8K ?? MICRO 79 Intelligent Graphics 8080 64K ?? MICRO 82 Interphase Corp.-------------------------------------------------- Baseboard SBC 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 Intersil Systems, Inc.-------------------------------------------- 1SB-80/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 1SB-809/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 Intertec Data Systems--------------------------------------------- Compustar VPU 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Compustar VPU 20 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Compustar VPU 30 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Compustar VPU 40 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Headstart VPU 128 Z80 w/8086 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Headstart VPU 512 Z80 w/8086 512K CP/M MICRO 84 Headstart VPU 1000 Z80 w/8086 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 Super Brain II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Ithaca Intersystems----------------------------------------------- Encore 580 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Encore 880 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Encore 58000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 83 Ithaca 525 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Jacquard, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- J100 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 75 J200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 J300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 J425 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 77 J500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 J6000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 87 Jade Computer Products-------------------------------------------- System III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Jonos International----------------------------------------------- C2000 Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 C2100 Z80A w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 85 C2150 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 C2550 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 C2600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Escort C2100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Escort C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Kaypro Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Kaypro 2x300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 Kaypro 4 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 Kaypro 10 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 Kaypro II Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 82 Kaypro II Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 Kaypro IV Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 Robie 300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 Kontron Electronics----------------------------------------------- PSI 80 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 Kowin Computer Corp.---------------------------------------------- Kowin II 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 Kowin II Plus 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 Kowin III 68020 3MB ?? ?? 87 Lanier Business Products------------------------------------------ Computereze Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Shared System II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 LMC--------------------------------------------------------------- System I NS16032 512K ?? ?? 84 System II NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 System III NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 LNW Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- LNW 80-I Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 81 LNW 80-II Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 81 Lobo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------ Max-80 Z80B 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Logical Business Machines----------------------------------------- Adam ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 David ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Goliath ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Tina ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 MAI--------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Four Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 System 110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 System 310 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 510 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 System 710 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System S/10 Z80 128K ?? ?? 82 System S/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Martec International---------------------------------------------- IBEX 2000 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 77 IBEX 7000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 Matrox Electronic Systems----------------------------------------- MACS-10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Multitech Electronics, Inc.--------------------------------------- MIC-501 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 MIC-504 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Memotech Corp.---------------------------------------------------- MTX 512 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Microcomputer Technology------------------------------------------ MOD III Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 80 Personal Executive Z80 1MB CP/M MICRO 82 Microcraft Corp.-------------------------------------------------- Dimension 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Microdata Corp.--------------------------------------------------- 7608 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 7905 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 7907 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 7915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 7917 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Reality 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Reality 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Reality 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Reality 7000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Reality 8000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Sovereign 7920 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Sovereign 7930 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Sovereign 7940 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Micro-Expander, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Expander Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Micromation, Inc.------------------------------------------------- M/System Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Mariner 9000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 Microsystems International---------------------------------------- Multinet Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Milwaukee Computers----------------------------------------------- MC-100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 Mini-Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- Micos 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Micos 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Micos 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Mohawk Data Sciences Corp.---------------------------------------- Model 21/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 21/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Model 21/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Model 21/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Model 21/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 21/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Momentum Computer Systems----------------------------------------- Model 32 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 Monroe Systems---------------------------------------------------- EC 8800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Microdecision 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 OC 8810 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 OC 8820 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 OC 8828 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 81 Morrow Designs, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Decision 1 D120 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Decision 1 D200 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Decision 1 D210 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Decision 1 D220 Z80 512K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 3P Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 5 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Microdecision MD 11 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 16 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 34 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Tricep 68000 256K UNIX MICRO 84 Mostek Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Matrix-80 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Motorola---------------------------------------------------------- Exormacs 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 Exorset 110 6809 56K ?? MICRO 83 M-6809 6809 64K ?? MICRO 78 VME/10 68000 384K UNIX MICRO 83 MSI Data---------------------------------------------------------- MSI/88S 68000 56K ?? MICRO 82 Musys Corp.------------------------------------------------------- NetWork 8816 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 83 NetWork 8820 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 84 Nabu Manufacturing------------------------------------------------ Personal Computer Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 NBI, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- System 1 68000 ?? UNIX ?? 84 Technical Workstation 68000 1MB UNIX ?? 84 NCR Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- Decision Mate V Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 I-9010 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 I-9020 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 I-9040 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 PC-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 PC-8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 82 NEC--------------------------------------------------------------- PC6000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 PC6001A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 86 PC8201A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 PC8401A Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 PC8800 Z80 w/80086 64K ?? MICRO 83 PC8801A Z80 w/8086 64K ?? MICRO 86 Astra 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Astra 205 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Astra 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Astra 230 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Astra 250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Astra 270 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Astra 330 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Astra 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Astra 370 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Nelma Data Corp.-------------------------------------------------- Persona Z80 ?? ?? MICRO 82 Persona II Z80 w/8088 192K ?? MICRO 83 New England Digital----------------------------------------------- A-40 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 A-60 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 78 Nixdorf Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- Model 80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 Model 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 Model 8810 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 8845 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 8870/M15 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 8870/1 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Model 8870/3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 8890/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 8890/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 8890/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 NNC Electronics--------------------------------------------------- System 80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 System 80W Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 NorthStar Computers----------------------------------------------- Advantage 8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Advantage Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Horizon 8/16 Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Horizon Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 77 Northern Telecom Terminal Sys.------------------------------------ 405 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 445 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 503 8085 256K ?? MICRO 81 M4120 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 M4121 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 M4122 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 Ohio Scientific--------------------------------------------------- MasterKey 220 6502 48K OS-65 MICRO 83 MasterKey 230 6502 52K OS-65 MICRO 82 MasterKey 250 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 MasterKey 330 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 MasterKey 350 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 MasterKey 2301 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 OSI-710 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 OSI-720 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 WorkSystem 200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 WorkSystem 300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 Olympia USA, Inc.------------------------------------------------- OPC 6502 52K ?? MICRO 82 Omni-Source------------------------------------------------------- OS-26 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 OS-48 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 OS-526 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 OS-548 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 OS-826 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 OS-848 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 Ontel Corp.------------------------------------------------------- 1505 Z80 w/6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 1507 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 Amigo Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 Onyx Systems Inc.------------------------------------------------- 6810 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 84 C8001 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 C8002 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 C8002A ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Sundance 16 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Sundance ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Sundance II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 System 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Osborne Computer-------------------------------------------------- Osborne 1 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 81 Osborne Executive Z80 128K CP/M PORT. 83 Vixen Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 OSM Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ Zeus 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Zeus 2-16 Z80 w/8088 320K ?? MICRO 83 Zeus 3 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 Zeus 3X ?? ?? ?? MICRO 85 Zeus 4 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 Zeus 16 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 Otrona Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Attache Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Panasonic--------------------------------------------------------- Link HHC 6502 4K ?? MICRO 83 RL-H 6502 8K ?? MICRO 81 PCE Systems------------------------------------------------------- Voyager I ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 Voyager II ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 Pegasus Data Systems---------------------------------------------- Peanut Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Pegasus Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Personal Microcomputers, Inc.------------------------------------- PMC Micromate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 PMC 80 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 80 PMC 81 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 81 PMC 101 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Pertec Computer Corp---------------------------------------------- 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 3200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 XL50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Phoenix Digital Corp.--------------------------------------------- CPW 09 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 Optoview 100 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 Plessy Peripheral Systems----------------------------------------- System-24 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 System-44 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 Plexus Computers, Inc.-------------------------------------------- P/25 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 P/35 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 Point Four Data--------------------------------------------------- Mark 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Mark 5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Mark 8 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Polo Microsystems, Inc.------------------------------------------- Polo System I Z80 w/80188 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Polymorphic Systems----------------------------------------------- Model 813 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 77 Model 8810 Z80 w/80186 256K ?? MICRO 83 Pragmatic Design-------------------------------------------------- Inspector 200 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 81 Product Associates------------------------------------------------ Z Disk I Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Z Disk II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Z Disk III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Q1 Corporation---------------------------------------------------- Microlite II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Quasar Data Products---------------------------------------------- QDP-100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 QDP-200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 QDP-300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Quasar Company---------------------------------------------------- HHC 6502 2K ?? ?? 83 Quasitronics------------------------------------------------------ Q-5048 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 82 Quay-------------------------------------------------------------- 90 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 900 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 910M ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 82 Rabbit Computer, Inc.--------------------------------------------- Wrap Bit II Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 Rair Microcomputer Corp.------------------------------------------ Black Box 3/30 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Black Box 3/50 8085 256K ?? MICRO 82 Business Computer 8085 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 82 Sage Computer Technology------------------------------------------ Sage II 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 Sage IV 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 Sanyo Business Systems Corp.-------------------------------------- MBC-1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 MBC-1100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 MBC-1150 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 MBC-1160 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 MBC-1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 MBC-1250 Z80 (x2) 64K CP/M MICRO 85 MBC-2000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 MBC-3000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 MBC-4050 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 85 PHC-20 8085 4K ?? ?? 83 Scenic Computer Systems------------------------------------------- Scenic 8085 70K ?? MICRO 81 Scientific Data Systems------------------------------------------- 420 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 Seattle Computer Products----------------------------------------- Gazelle I 8086 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Seequa Computer--------------------------------------------------- Chameleon Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 PC Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 84 XT Z80 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 84 Sharp Electronics------------------------------------------------- PC-1211 6809 2K ?? ?? 81 PC-1250A 6809 ?? ?? ?? 84 PC-1260 6809 4K ?? ?? 84 PC-1261 6809 10K ?? ?? 84 PC-1350 6809 5K ?? ?? 84 PC-1500A 6809 8K ?? ?? 83 System 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Sierra Computer Systems------------------------------------------- CX Workstation 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 Sierra National--------------------------------------------------- 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 4000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 SKS Computers----------------------------------------------------- SKS 1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Solo Systems------------------------------------------------------ 1116 Solostation 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Sony Video Communications----------------------------------------- SMC-70 Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 82 Sord Computers, Inc.---------------------------------------------- IS-11 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 M 23 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 M 68 Z80 w/68000 256K ?? MICRO 83 M 68MX 68000 512K ?? MICRO 87 Southern Computer Systems----------------------------------------- Series 8000 8088 w/8085 128K ?? MICRO 83 Sperry Corporation------------------------------------------------ BC/7-600 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 83 Mapper 5 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Star Technologies, Inc.------------------------------------------- M1 68000 512K ?? ?? 82 Ministar 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 81 Ministar 1200 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 Nanostar 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 Stride Micro------------------------------------------------------ 420 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 440 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 460 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 Sumicom, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- 830 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 83 Systems Group----------------------------------------------------- 2900 Z80 128K ?? ?? 81 ExpressLine 68000 768K ?? ?? 83 Syzygy------------------------------------------------------------ Syzygy Computer System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Tandy Corporation------------------------------------------------- 4D Micro Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 102 80C85 32K ?? PORT. 86 200 80C85 24K ?? PORT. 85 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 Color Computer 2 6809E 64K ?? MICRO 84 Color Computer 3 6809E 128K ?? MICRO 86 PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 TRS-80 Model 4P Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 TRS-80 Model 12 Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 TRS-80 Model 16B 68000 w/Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 TRS-80 Model 100 Z80 24K ?? MICRO 83 TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 TRS-80 Model II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 TRS-80 Model III Z80 64K ?? MICRO 80 TRS-80 PC-1 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 TRS-80 PC-2 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 82 Tano Corporation-------------------------------------------------- AVT-2 6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 Tarbell Electronics----------------------------------------------- Empire Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Rebel Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Televideo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- TPC I Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 TS 800 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 86 TS 802 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 82 TS 803 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 TS 804 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 TS 806 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 81 TS 816 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 82 3R Computer Products---------------------------------------------- Avatar TC10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Avatar TC3278 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Texas Instruments------------------------------------------------- 99/2 TMS9900 4K ?? MICRO 83 99/4A TMS9900 16K ?? MICRO 83 200 TMS9900 64K ?? ?? 83 300 TMS9900 128K ?? ?? 83 990 TMS9900 2MB ?? ?? 81 CC 40 TMS9900 6K ?? ?? 83 Timex Computer---------------------------------------------------- TS 1000 Z80 1K ?? MICRO 83 TS 2000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 Torch Computers--------------------------------------------------- Model CF110 Z80 w/6502 96K ?? MICRO 82 Toshiba, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- EW100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 81 T100 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 T200 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 T250 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Vector Graphic, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Vector 4 Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 Vector 5005E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Vector 5010E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Vector 5032E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Vector SX-2000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 Vector SX-3000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 Vector SX-5000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 Video Technology Computers, Inc.---------------------------------- Laser 50 Z80 2K ?? PORT. 84 Laser 128 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 Laser 128EX 65C02 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 Laser 200 6502 4K ?? ?? 83 Laser 3000 6502 64K ?? ?? 83 Wicat Systems, Inc.----------------------------------------------- System 150 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 155 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 160 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 300 68000 2MB ?? ?? 83 System 2200 68000 1MB ?? ?? 83 Xerox Corporation------------------------------------------------- System 744-I Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 System 744-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 16/8 Z80 w/8086 192K ?? MICRO 83 820-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Zeda Computers---------------------------------------------------- 520 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 580A Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 Zilog, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- System 8000/11 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 8000/12 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 System 8000/21 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 8000/22 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 System 8000/32 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 ================================================================== From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu May 1 16:16:37 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at May 1, 97 01:54:10 pm Message-ID: <199705012116.PAA26388@calico.litterbox.com> Um... if there was ever a ROM02 apple2 GS I've not heard of it. And GSOS will work on anything above a ROM0 GS. There were 3 versions of GS that I know about. ROM 0 - the Woz signature edition. Only runs prodos 16 and prodos 8 and dos3.3 ROM 1 - The most common - Will run all of the above + GSOS. ROM 3 - Somewhat more rare. Runs GSOS. Will NOT run dos 3.3 and possibly prodos 16. More ram on the motherboard (1 mb) (previous models had the same motherboard and 256k on it) Will run appletalk through the serial or printer port without taking up 2 slots. ROM 4 - The next generation. Never made it past prototype. VERY rare. Also, if y'all find an apple2 ethernet board, I would love to get my hands on one. They only were made for the GS and again they never came out of pre-production. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 1 16:28:24 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <199705012116.PAA26388@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Jim wrote: Boy - you strike like lightning when I make a stupid comment! ;) I've obviously gotta stop talking Apple around here :))) > Um... if there was ever a ROM02 apple2 GS I've not heard of it. And GSOS > will work on anything above a ROM0 GS. There were 3 versions of GS that > I know about. My attempt is to use the OS that came with the system and I'm not totally clear on when ProDOS 16 turned into GS/OS. Any ideas? And of course - the ROM thing was just a silly mistake - thanks for pointing it out. > ROM 4 - The next generation. Never made it past prototype. VERY rare. My question is - was there more than one prototype made? I've only heard of one. If there were more it might be worth listing it. > Also, if y'all find an apple2 ethernet board, I would love to get my hands > on one. They only were made for the GS and again they never came out of > pre-production. Last I heard there were only a few of these and that they were in the hands of Apple or ex- personnel. I wonder if it would be possible to reproduce it with a schematic... Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 1 17:32:24 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at May 1, 97 01:54:10 pm Message-ID: <9705012132.AA12001@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 531 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970501/adc0357d/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu May 1 16:39:39 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at May 1, 97 02:28:24 pm Message-ID: <199705012139.PAA26505@calico.litterbox.com> Um... in that case, the rom0 and rom1 shipped originally with prodos 16. GSOS shipped with the later rom01s, I think - I have an early one and a late one. The early one came with prodos 16, the late one shipped with gsos 5. They both are (or will soon) run gsos 6.0.1, the final version. And I only know about GSs. :) Which is ironic, since in those days I was a rabid c=64 user. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From MPritchard at ensemble.net Thu May 1 18:03:19 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199705012301.QAA13346@mx3.u.washington.edu> > >Yeah, but then people realized a lot of computer geeks make a lot of > >money, and they stopped laughing at them. > > We do? Why wasn't I told???? > > > -Matt Pritchard > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 17:58:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E2C3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Great list! Some additions & changes: - Add: Advanced Micro Devices AM-2900, AMD 2901, 1978 - Add: Apple I, 1976 - Add: Apple/Tempest TPI 863T milspec Macintosh, 68000, 1986 - Add: Apple/Honeywell "Black Apple" custom manufactured Apple II+ - Add: Atari 1040STE - 1989 (improved 1040ST) - Change: Atari Mega machines were the Mega ST (with 1, 2 or 4MB, 1987) and the Mega STE (improved, 1991). I've never heard of a "Mega 1" or "Mega 2" - Add: Atari ATW800 Transputer Workstation, 1988 - Add: AT&T 3B1, 68010, 2MB, 1985 - Add: Commodore KIM-1 singleboard, 6502, 1K, 1976 - Add: Commodore Amiga 2000/3000/4000 (Too new?) - Change: Commodore Executive 64 official designation was SX-64 - Change: Cromemco Z's were Z2, Z3, with & without a D for Disk drive, as in Z2D--don't think there was a Z1. The "System" line was separate. I think the only one was the System 3, aka "CS-3" (I've got one), Z80A, ~1978. - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General portable - Add: Data Science XOR, Z80A, 64K, 1981 - Add: E&L MMD-1 Singleboard, 8080, 1977 - Add: Exidy Sorcerer, Z80, 1978 - Add: Heathkit H8, 8080, 1977 - Add: Heathkit H11, LSI-11, 1977 - Add: IBM 5100, no microprocessor, 1975 - Add: IMSAI 8080, 8080, 1977 - Add: Intecolor CompuColor II, 8080A, ~1979 - Add: Integrated Computer Systems (ICS) Suitcase Trainer, NEC 8255, 1978 - Add: Intel Intellec-8, 8008, 1973 - Add: Intersil Intercept Jr. singleboard, IM6100, 1976 - Change: Intertec Superbrain II was actually 2xZ80. There's also a Superbrain II Jr, don't know what the difference is - Add: Ithaca InterSystems DPS-1, Z80, ~1978 - Change: "Kaypro Corp" should be Non-Linear Systems - Add: Mattel Aquarius, Z80A, 4K, 1983 - Add: Micro Design Z80 Starter Kit singleboard, Z80, 1976 - Add: Micro Mint Z8 Basic/Micro, Z8, 1981 - Add: Micro Technology Unlimited (MTU) MTU-130, 6502, 80K, 1981 - Add: MITS Altair 680, 68000, 1976 - Add: MITS Altair 8800, 8080, 1975 - Add: MITS Altair 8800b, 8080, 1976 - Add: NEC PC8001, Z80, 1979 - Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim Shoppa has one) - Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS - Add: Ohio Scientific (tons of other models, I'll have to look in a magazine) - Change: Onyx C8002 was Z8000, 256K, Unix, 1980 - Add: Panasonic JR200U, 6802, 32K - Add: Polymorphic Poly-88, 8080?, 1976 - Add: Processor Technology Sol-20, 8080A, 1976 - Add: RCA COSMAC ELF, RCA1802, 1977 - Add: RCA COSMAC VIP, RCA1802 - Add: Sanyo MBC-550 - Add: Scelbi 8H (kit), 8008, 1973 - Add: Southwest Technical Products (SWTPC) 6800 Computer System, 6800, 1977 - Add: Southwest Technical Products (SWTPC) other lineup (M6809, etc. need to look in a magazine) - Add: Spectravideo 318, Z80, 32K, 1983 - Add: Spectravideo 328, Z80, 64K, 1984 - Add: Sphere Corporation Sphere-1, 6800, 4K, 1975 - Add: Synertek SYM-1 singleboard, 6502, 1978 - Add: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4, Z80 - Change: Tandy "4D Micro" should be TRS-80 Model 4D, Z80 - Add: Tandy TRS-80 Model 1, Z80, 1978 - Change: Tandy TRS-80 Model 1/2/3/4 operating systems should be TRSDOS - Change: Tandy TRS-80 Model 16B operating system should be XENIX/TRSDOS - Change: Tandy TRS-80 Micro Color Computer RAM should be 4K - Add: Timex-Sinclair ZX80, NEC 780-1, 1K, 1980 - Add: Timex-Sinclair ZX81, Z80A, 1K, 1981 - Add: Timex-Sinclair ZX1000 - Add: Titus Mark-8 (plans only), 8008, 1974 - Add: Vector Graphic 1, 1977 - Add: Xerox Alto, 1974 - Add: Xerox Star, 1977 - Change: Zenith Z89 OS was CP/M 2.2 Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson[SMTP:bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 1997 1:54 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: The List! > > Hi all. > > After getting your numerous recommendations on the last > version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It > now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base > RAM, Primary OS, and Class. I carry it with me when I > go hunting - hopefully it will be useful to you too. > > As always - I'd love to hear from you with additions or > corrections. This list is currently quite weak when it > comes to pre-'78 machines, minis and bigger computers. > I'm sure that just the DEC section should be three times > as long. My resources only go so far ;). > > --- > The Big List of Classic Computers > Last Rev: 4/30/97 > > This list is compiled from various sources: fliers, magazines, > ads, manuals, and price books. The information is as acurate as > the original sources. > > I have removed PCs and clones from this list - they were taking > up too much space. I may put together a separate PC list in the > future. This list does not include game consoles, calculators, > or word processors. > > If you have anything to add or revise, contact Bill Whitson > (e-mail bill@booster.u.washington.edu). > > MODEL is the manufacturers model number. > CPU indicates the type of CPU. > RAM is the amount of RAM installed in a base unit. > OS is the primary operating system or OS delivered with the unit. > ADOS 3.X = Apple II DOS v3.x > AMIGAOS = Amiga Operating System > AMOS = Alpha-Microsystems Operating System > ATRDOS = Atari Built-In OS > CBMOS = Commodore Built-In OS > CP/M = CP/M-80, CP/M-86, CP/M-68K, MP/M, etc... > CROMIX = Cromemco CROMIX > FLEX = FLEX > GS/OS = Apple IIgs Operating System > LOS = LISA Office System > MACOS = MacOS > OS/9 = OS/9 > PRODOS16 = Apple 16bit ProDOS > PRODOS8 = Apple 8bit ProDOS > SOS = Apple III DOS > TDOS = TurboDOS > TOS = Atari ST Operating System > UNIX = Any true UNIX variant > > TYPE is the class of computer > MAIN = Computers physically larger than 2m x 2m x 2m > MINI = Computers physically larger than 1m x 1m x 1m or which > are composed of separate subsystems. > MICRO = Single unit machines smaller than 1m x 1m x 1m > PORT. = Portable (Lugabble, Laptop, Notebook, Handheld) units. > YEAR is when the computer was first produced. > > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE > YR > ================================================================== > Acorn------------------------------------------------------------- > Atom 6502 4K ?? MICRO 80 > Bus. Comp. Model 100 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 110 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 200 6502 w/32016 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 210 6502 w/32016 4MB ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 300 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 310 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model PA 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Terminal 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Electron 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 > Master 65C02 128K ?? MICRO > 86 > Model A 6502 16K ?? MICRO 81 > Model B 6502 32K ?? MICRO 82 > Model B+ 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Proton 6502 16K ?? MICRO > 81 > System 1 6502 1K ?? MICRO 79 > System 2 6502 32k ?? MICRO 80 > Automated Computer Systems---------------------------------------- > 4040 MC 4040 64K CP/M MICRO 78 > 8080 MC 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 8080 MCS 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 8080 MPU 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 8080/Z80 8008 w/Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Z80 MCS Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > Z80 MCS Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Action Computer Enterprise, Inc.---------------------------------- > Discovery 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Discovery 1600 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Actrix Computers-------------------------------------------------- > DSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > SSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Adra Systems------------------------------------------------------ > Model 1000 68020 2.5MB ?? MICRO 86 > Model 3000 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 > Advanced Digital Corporation-------------------------------------- > Super System II ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 > SuperStar ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 > Alcyon------------------------------------------------------------ > APS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 > APS/RMS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 > APX 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 > Alpha Info Systems------------------------------------------------ > Model 100 8085 1MB ?? ?? > 77 > Model 100T 8085 1MB ?? ?? 79 > Alpha MicroSystems------------------------------------------------ > AM-680C 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 > AM-680M 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 > AM-1000 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 82 > AM-1000E 68000 256K AMOS MICRO 83 > AM-1000X 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 > ALSPA Computer---------------------------------------------------- > ACI-1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > ACI-2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Zero Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Altos Computer Systems-------------------------------------------- > 3068 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 > 3068 EP 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 > 580-2 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO > 83 > 580-20 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO > 83 > 680-40 68000 ?? ?? MICRO > 85 > 8000-10 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 > 8000-12 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 > 8000-14 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 > Advanced Micro Devices-------------------------------------------- > Model 96/4116 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO > 80 > Ampere, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ > WS1A 68000 64K ?? MICRO 85 > WS1B 68000 256K ?? MICRO 85 > Amstrad----------------------------------------------------------- > CPC464 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 84 > CPC664 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 85 > CPC6128 Z80A 128K AMSDOS MICRO 85 > PCW8256 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 85 > PCW8512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 86 > PCW9512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 87 > APF Electronics--------------------------------------------------- > IM1 6800 8K ?? MICRO 80 > Apollo Computer--------------------------------------------------- > 400/420 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Domain ?? ?? ?? ?? > 81 > Apple Computer, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Apple II 6502 16K ADOS 3.X MICRO 77 > Apple II+ 6502 48K ADOS 3.X MICRO 81 > Apple IIc 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 85 > Apple IIc+ 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 86 > Apple IIe 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 82 > Apple IIgs (ROM 01) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 86 > Apple IIgs (ROM 02) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 87 > Apple IIgs (ROM 03) 65C816 1.25MB GS/OS MICRO 88 > Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 > Apple III+ 6502 256K SOS MICRO 84 > Lisa 1 68000 1MB LOS MICRO 83 > Lisa 2 68000 512K LOS MICRO 84 > Macintosh 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO > 84 > Macintosh 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO > 84 > Macintosh Plus 68010 1MB MACOS MICRO > 86 > Macintosh Plus Enh. 68010 512K MACOS MICRO 86 > Macintosh XL 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 > Applied Digital Data Systems-------------------------------------- > Multivision 1 8085 64k CP/M MICRO > 80 > Multivision 2 8085 64K CP/M MICRO > 81 > Multivision 3 8085 192K CP/M MICRO > 81 > Applied Electronics----------------------------------------------- > Model 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Applied Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- > ASC 68000 68000 64K ?? MICRO 83 > ASC Portable 8088 w/8085 32K ?? PORT. 83 > AT&T-------------------------------------------------------------- > 3704-040 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 > 3704-045 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 > 3704-065 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 > 3B2/300 WE32000 1MB UNIX MINI 86 > 3B2/400 WE32100 2MB UNIX MINI > 86 > 7300A1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300A2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300B1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300D1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300E2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO > 86 > Atari------------------------------------------------------------- > 1040ST 68010 512K TOS MICRO 85 > 1200XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 82 > 130XE 6502C 128K ATRDOS MICRO > 85 > 400 6502 16K ATRDOS MICRO 79 > 520ST 68000 512K TOS MICRO 85 > 600XL 6502C 16K ATRDOS MICRO 83 > 65XE 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 85 > 800 6502 48K ATRDOS MICRO 79 > 800XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 83 > Mega 2 68000 2MB ?? MICRO 87 > Mega 4 68000 4MB ?? MICRO 87 > XE Game System 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO > 87 > Auragen Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- > System 4000 68010 ?? ?? ?? 84 > Barreto Associates------------------------------------------------ > MicroMaster Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Barrington International------------------------------------------ > Elite Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Barrister Info Systems-------------------------------------------- > Law Office Manager Z80 ?? ?? ?? 75 > Basis------------------------------------------------------------- > Model 108 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > BBN Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ > C60 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 80 > C70 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 81 > Beehive Corp.----------------------------------------------------- > The Topper Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Bell Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- > Model 4 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 > Bell and Howell--------------------------------------------------- > Model 78400 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 78401 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 78402 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 3016D 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 3032D 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 3048D 6502 48K ?? MICRO 83 > Berkel Systems---------------------------------------------------- > Model 4410 6502 16K ?? MICRO 74 > Billings Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- > System 500 II Z80 56K TDOS MICRO > 82 > System 6000B Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > System 6000 II Z80 64K TDOS MICRO > 82 > System 6000 X Z80 64K TDOS MICRO > 82 > System 6000 XII Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > BC-12FD Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 79 > BlackHawk Computers----------------------------------------------- > BlackHawk 3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 > BlackHawk 4 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 > BMC, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > BMC-800 Model 20C Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > BMC-800 Model 20G Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Bondwell Computers------------------------------------------------ > BW2 Z80C 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > BW12 Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > BW14 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 > BW16 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 > BOS Systems------------------------------------------------------- > BOS-M Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 81 > Cyte 86 Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > BTI Computer Systems---------------------------------------------- > BTI 4800 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? ?? 84 > BTI 5000 Mark II Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 > BTI 5000/ES Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 > BTI 6000 Z80 W/8088 128K ?? ?? 84 > BTI 8000 BTI8000 24MB ?? ?? > 85 > Burroughs Corp.--------------------------------------------------- > B1800 Z80 w/80186 64K ?? MICRO 83 > B1910 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 83 > B1913 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO > 83 > OW400 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > CADO Systems------------------------------------------------------ > CAT III 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > System 20/20 8085 48K ?? MICRO 78 > System 20/28 8085 96K ?? MICRO 83 > CCG--------------------------------------------------------------- > Micro 11 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > Ultra 11/730 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra 11/750 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra PDP 11/44 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra PDP 11/73 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra PDP 11/23 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > California Computer Systems--------------------------------------- > Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Model 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 200 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 400 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 410 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 420 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Callan Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > CD 100 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 81 > CD 100M 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 > UniStar 100 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > UniStar 200 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > UniStar 300 NS16032 512K UNIX ?? 84 > Canaan Computer Corp.--------------------------------------------- > 5410Z ?? ?? ?? ?? 85 > 5412-P1 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > 5412-P2 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Canon, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > TX-10/15 6809 16K ?? MICRO 80 > Casio, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > FX-9000 6809 4K ?? MICRO 83 > Computer Consoles, Inc.------------------------------------------- > Power 5/20 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Control Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ > Cyber 18 6809 16K ?? MICRO 76 > Model 110 6809 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Computer Enhancement Corp.---------------------------------------- > CE Micro 1 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Centurion Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ > Model 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 5200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Model 5300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Model 6100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 6200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 6300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 6400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 6500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 7100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 9200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Micro Plus ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Century Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- > System 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > System 400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > System 700 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > System 900 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > > Vanguard 8000 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Vanguard 8200 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Vanguard 8500 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > X1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > X2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > Challenge Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- > CS1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Charles River Data Systems---------------------------------------- > Universe 32/115T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 > Universe 32/137T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 > Universe 32/35 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 > Universe 65/115T 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 > Universe 68/05 68000 256K ?? ?? 82 > Universe 68/137T 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > Universe 68/67 68000 512K ?? ?? > 83 > Universe 68/35 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > Universe 2402 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 > Universe 2403 68000 512K ?? ?? > 84 > Charter Information Corp.----------------------------------------- > System 4 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 > CIE Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > 680/20 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 > 680/30-10 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 > 680/35 68000 512K ?? ?? > 83 > 680/40 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > 680/50 68020 1MB ?? ?? 87 > 680/100 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > 680/150 68020 8MB ?? ?? 87 > 680/200 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > CMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- > SuperSystem 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > SuperSystem 2 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Codex Corporation------------------------------------------------- > Model 268/21 68000 ?? ?? MICRO 83 > Model 268/24 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 > Model 268/44 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 > Colby Computer---------------------------------------------------- > MacColby 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO 84 > MacColby 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 > Coleco Industries, Inc.------------------------------------------- > ADAM Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > Colonial Data Services-------------------------------------------- > SB80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Columbia Data Products-------------------------------------------- > Commander 500 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 79 > Commander 964 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Commander F64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO > 79 > Commander FX Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 79 > Commander M64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO > 79 > Comark Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Disktor M1 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Disktor M3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Disktor Q ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > MB 85/285 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 79 > Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- > 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 > 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 > 16 6510 16K ?? MICRO 84 > 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 > 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 > Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 > CBM 3008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 3016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 3032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 4004 6502 4K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 4008 6502 8K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 4016 6502 16K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 4032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 8008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 8096 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8296 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM SP9000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > Executive 64 6510 64K CBMOS PORT. 83 > PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > Plus 4 6510 64K ?? MICRO 84 > SuperPET 6502 w/6809 96K ?? MICRO 81 > VIC-20 6502 5K ?? MICRO 81 > Compal Computer Systems------------------------------------------- > 8200+ Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Electric Briefcase Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > EZ Type Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > CompTech---------------------------------------------------------- > EVE II 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 > CompuCorp--------------------------------------------------------- > Model 745 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 799 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 > Compupro Systems-------------------------------------------------- > MP-10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO > 83 > System 816/10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 > System 816/A 8085 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 816/B 8085 w/8088 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 816/C 8085 w/8088 512K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 816/E 68000 256K CP/M MICRO 84 > System 816/G ?? 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 > System 816/GG Z80 w/68000 512K CP/M MICRO > 84 > System 816/Z Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 84 > The Computerist--------------------------------------------------- > Focus 6809 30K FLEX MICRO 82 > Covergent Technologies-------------------------------------------- > MiniFrame 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 > MiniFrame Plus 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 > MightyFrame 68020 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > Cortex Systems---------------------------------------------------- > Microdent 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Microdent 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Cromemco, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- > C10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > CS-1 Z80 w/68000 256K CROMIX MICRO 82 > CS100 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 85 > CS110 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 86 > CS115 68020 2MB UNIX MICRO 87 > CS120 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 > CS200 68010 1MB ?? MINI 86 > CS220 68020 2MB ?? MINI 86 > CS300 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 > CS400 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 > CS420 68020 4MB ?? MINI 86 > D System 1 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 82 > D System 100 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 > D System 3 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 83 > D System 300 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 > Z System 0 Z80 1MB ?? MICRO 82 > Z System 1 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Z System 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Z System 3 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > CYB Systems------------------------------------------------------- > MultiBox I 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 > MultiBox II 68000 768K UNIX ?? 82 > Cyberchron-------------------------------------------------------- > C21 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 > C41 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 > C45 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 > CDS-201 68000 64K ?? ?? 79 > CDS-231 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 > Data General Corp------------------------------------------------- > CB/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CEO ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > CS/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > CS/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > CS/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > CS/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > CS/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > CS/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Eclipse C/150 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Eclipse C/350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Eclipse MV/4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Eclipse S/120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Eclipse S/130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Eclipse S/140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Eclipse S/250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Eclipse S/280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Enterprise 1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Enterprise 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > MPT/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > MPT/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Nova 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Nova 4 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datamac Computer Systems------------------------------------------ > Series 1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Datapoint Corp.--------------------------------------------------- > Model 1560 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Model 8600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 8800 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 81 > Series 1800 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Series 4000 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Series 6600 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 > Datavue Corp.----------------------------------------------------- > 80/100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 80/200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 80/300 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 80/400 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > DEC--------------------------------------------------------------- > Correspondent ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 150 ?? ?? ?? ?? > 83 > Datasystem 208 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Datasystem 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 315 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 320 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 336 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 356 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 512 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > DECMate II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Micro/PDP-11 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > MicroVAX I ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > PDP-11/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > PDP-11/24 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > PDP-11/34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > PDP-11/44 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > PDP-11/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > Professional 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Professional 325 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Professional 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Professional 380 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Rainbow 100 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Rainbow 100+ Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Robin ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > VAX-11/730 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > VAX-11/750 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Deltadata Systems Corp.------------------------------------------- > D8000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Micro Manager Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Delta Products Inc.----------------------------------------------- > Delta One Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Delta Two Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Delta Four Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 83 > DP/Net ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > DP/125 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 83 > Digicomp Research------------------------------------------------- > System 100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Digidyne---------------------------------------------------------- > 5832 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 > 5864 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 > Series 200 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Digital Microsystems---------------------------------------------- > DMS-3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > DMS-4 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 80 > DMS-15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > DMS-86 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > DMS-1280 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > DMS-5080 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > DMS-5086 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Digital Technology------------------------------------------------ > Model 580 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Digitex----------------------------------------------------------- > Model 7100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 7200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 7300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 7500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Dimension Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ > 1000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > 1020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > 2010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > 3010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 > 3020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 > Direct, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ > Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 1025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 1031 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Display Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ > Insight Z80 64K ?? ?? 74 > DMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- > Commfile Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 78 > Docutel----------------------------------------------------------- > BCS 2025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > BCS 2030 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > DC-M18 68000 100K MS-DOS MICRO 84 > M10 8085 8K ?? PORT. 84 > M20 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > P6060 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 77 > S6000 Z8000 64K ?? MICRO 81 > DTC--------------------------------------------------------------- > 710 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > A22 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 83 > B23 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 82 > Micro 210A 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Micro 210B 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Data Technology Industries---------------------------------------- > Associate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 79 > Dual Systems Control Corp.---------------------------------------- > 83/20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 83/80 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 83/500 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 > Durango Systems Inc.---------------------------------------------- > 800 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 800XR 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > 900 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > 910 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Dynabyte Business Computers--------------------------------------- > 6600 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > 6900 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Monarch 6000 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Eagle Computer Inc.----------------------------------------------- > Eagle IIE Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Eagle III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Eagle IV Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > ECS Microsystems-------------------------------------------------- > ECS 4500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > ECS 4650 Z80 80K CP/M MICRO 82 > EEC Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > Micropower/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Micropower/W ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Elan Computers---------------------------------------------------- > Enterprise 64 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Enterprise 128 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Epic Computers---------------------------------------------------- > Episode 2296 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Epson, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > Geneva PX-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > HX-20 Z80 16K ?? PORT. 83 > QX-10 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 > QX-16 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Esprit Computer Products------------------------------------------ > Model S1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model S1016 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model S1500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model S1516 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model S1800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Model 900 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 > ETR, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > Star System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Eve Computers----------------------------------------------------- > Eve II PC 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 > Eve Portable 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X PORT. 84 > Evolution Computer Systems---------------------------------------- > Model 140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 160 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 240 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 260 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Exo Systems------------------------------------------------------- > System 5 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 8 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 58 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Exxon Office Systems---------------------------------------------- > 510 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > 520 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > 530 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 8400 Series Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Facit, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > Model 6500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > FI Electronics---------------------------------------------------- > Series 7240 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 81 > Financial Business Computers-------------------------------------- > FBC Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Findex------------------------------------------------------------ > Model 0X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 0X2 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 9X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 > Formation, Inc.--------------------------------------------------- > F/4000-101 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 > F/4000-201 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 > F/4000-301 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 > Fortune Systems Corp.--------------------------------------------- > 32:16 PS-10 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 32:16 PS-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 32:16 68000 128K UNIX ?? 81 > 32:16 XP-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 32:16 XP-30 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > Fortune Formula 68020 ?? UNIX ?? 86 > SX45 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 > SX45T 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 > SX70 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 > XP45 68000 512K ?? ?? 85 > Forward Technology------------------------------------------------ > Grpahics Workstation 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 > Four-Phase Systems------------------------------------------------ > IV/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > IV/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > IV/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 > IV/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/65 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/90 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/95 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Franklin Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- > Ace 10 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 > Ace 1100 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 > Ace 1000 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 > Ace 1200 6502 w/Z80 128K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 > Ace 500 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 > Fujitsu, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- > Micro 16S Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Garrett Computing Systems----------------------------------------- > GSC/440 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > GEAC Computers---------------------------------------------------- > System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > General Automation------------------------------------------------ > Model 930 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 940 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 950 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Zebra 700 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 84 > Zebra 750 68000 128K XENIX MICRO 84 > Zebra 1000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 1500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 2000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 2500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 3000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 3500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 5500 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 > General Robotics-------------------------------------------------- > BA500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > BA800L ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 > Scorpio 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 > Super Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 > Super Pegasus 68000 64K ?? ?? 77 > Super Tristar 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 > Hagen Systems----------------------------------------------------- > Mark Ten ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Harris Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > H60 68000 768K ?? ?? 84 > H600 68000 1.5MB ?? ?? 83 > H700 68000 384K ?? ?? 82 > Model 1640 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 1650 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Heurikon Corp.---------------------------------------------------- > HK68 68000 128K UNIX ?? 84 > Minibox 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > MLZ Z80 16K ?? ?? 83 > Modular Box 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > Hon Computing Systems--------------------------------------------- > Hon IV ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Hon V ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Honeywell Bull, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > DPS 6/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > DPS 6/45 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Level 6-23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Level 6-33 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > Level 6-37 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Level 6-43 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Level 6-47 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Level 6-53 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Level 6-57 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > System XPS-100-10 68010 512K ?? ?? 86 > System XPS-100-20 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 > System XPS-100-40 68020 4MB ?? ?? 86 > HP---------------------------------------------------------------- > HP 1000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > HP 300 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > HP 3000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > HP 85A ?? 16K ?? MICRO 82 > HP 85B ?? ?? ?? MICRO 86 > HP 86B Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > HP 87XM ?? 128K ?? MICRO 82 > HP 9825B ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > HP 9845B ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > HP 9915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Series 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Series 200 68000 512K CP/M MICRO 82 > Integrated Business Computers------------------------------------- > C-1064R Z80B 64K ?? ?? 84 > Cadet Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Ensign 68010 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Ensign 386:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 > Ensign 682:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 > Ensign Oasis 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Middi-Cadet Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 > Middi-Cadet High Perf. Z80H 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Multi-Star I Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Multi-Star II Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Super Cadet Z80H 320K ?? MICRO 84 > System 68 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > IBM--------------------------------------------------------------- > 6/430 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > 5110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > 5120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 8130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > 8140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > System 34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > System 36 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > System 38 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > ICL, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > DRS20 8085 w/8088 150K ?? MICRO 82 > Immediate Business Systems---------------------------------------- > FS 2000 8085 w/8088 32K ?? ?? 83 > IMPC-------------------------------------------------------------- > Access Matrix Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Impelco----------------------------------------------------------- > IMP 800C Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > IMP 816C Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 84 > IMS International------------------------------------------------- > 5000IS Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 82 > 5000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > 8000S Z80 w/8088 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > 8000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > Information Devices----------------------------------------------- > Micro Plus Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Infotecs, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- > Control Center 2 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Innotronics------------------------------------------------------- > Model 6100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Intecolor Corporation--------------------------------------------- > 3651 8080 32K ?? MICRO 80 > 8052 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 > 8352 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 > Intelligent Systems----------------------------------------------- > Intecolor 8050 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 > Intecolor 8064 8080 8K ?? MICRO 79 > Intelligent Graphics 8080 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Interphase Corp.-------------------------------------------------- > Baseboard SBC 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Intersil Systems, Inc.-------------------------------------------- > 1SB-80/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 1SB-809/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Intertec Data Systems--------------------------------------------- > Compustar VPU 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Compustar VPU 20 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Compustar VPU 30 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Compustar VPU 40 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Headstart VPU 128 Z80 w/8086 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Headstart VPU 512 Z80 w/8086 512K CP/M MICRO 84 > Headstart VPU 1000 Z80 w/8086 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 > Super Brain II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Ithaca Intersystems----------------------------------------------- > Encore 580 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Encore 880 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Encore 58000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 83 > Ithaca 525 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Jacquard, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- > J100 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 75 > J200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > J300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > J425 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 77 > J500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 > J6000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 87 > Jade Computer Products-------------------------------------------- > System III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Jonos International----------------------------------------------- > C2000 Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2100 Z80A w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2150 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2550 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Escort C2100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Escort C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Kaypro Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Kaypro 2x300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 > Kaypro 4 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 > Kaypro 10 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 > Kaypro II Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 82 > Kaypro II Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 > Kaypro IV Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 > Robie 300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 > Kontron Electronics----------------------------------------------- > PSI 80 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 > Kowin Computer Corp.---------------------------------------------- > Kowin II 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 > Kowin II Plus 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 > Kowin III 68020 3MB ?? ?? 87 > Lanier Business Products------------------------------------------ > Computereze Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Shared System II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > LMC--------------------------------------------------------------- > System I NS16032 512K ?? ?? 84 > System II NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 > System III NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 > LNW Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- > LNW 80-I Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 81 > LNW 80-II Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 81 > Lobo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------ > Max-80 Z80B 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Logical Business Machines----------------------------------------- > Adam ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > David ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Goliath ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Tina ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > MAI--------------------------------------------------------------- > Basic Four Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > System 310 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 510 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > System 710 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System S/10 Z80 128K ?? ?? 82 > System S/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Martec International---------------------------------------------- > IBEX 2000 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 77 > IBEX 7000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 > Matrox Electronic Systems----------------------------------------- > MACS-10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Multitech Electronics, Inc.--------------------------------------- > MIC-501 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MIC-504 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Memotech Corp.---------------------------------------------------- > MTX 512 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Microcomputer Technology------------------------------------------ > MOD III Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 80 > Personal Executive Z80 1MB CP/M MICRO 82 > Microcraft Corp.-------------------------------------------------- > Dimension 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > Microdata Corp.--------------------------------------------------- > 7608 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > 7905 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > 7907 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > 7915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > 7917 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Reality 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Reality 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Reality 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Reality 7000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Reality 8000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Sovereign 7920 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Sovereign 7930 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Sovereign 7940 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Micro-Expander, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Expander Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Micromation, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > M/System Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Mariner 9000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 > Microsystems International---------------------------------------- > Multinet Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Milwaukee Computers----------------------------------------------- > MC-100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Mini-Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- > Micos 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Micos 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Micos 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Mohawk Data Sciences Corp.---------------------------------------- > Model 21/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 21/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Model 21/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Model 21/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Model 21/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 21/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Momentum Computer Systems----------------------------------------- > Model 32 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 > Monroe Systems---------------------------------------------------- > EC 8800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Microdecision 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > OC 8810 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > OC 8820 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > OC 8828 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 81 > Morrow Designs, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Decision 1 D120 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Decision 1 D200 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Decision 1 D210 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Decision 1 D220 Z80 512K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 3P Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 5 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Microdecision MD 11 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 16 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 34 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Tricep 68000 256K UNIX MICRO 84 > Mostek Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Matrix-80 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Motorola---------------------------------------------------------- > Exormacs 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 > Exorset 110 6809 56K ?? MICRO 83 > M-6809 6809 64K ?? MICRO 78 > VME/10 68000 384K UNIX MICRO 83 > MSI Data---------------------------------------------------------- > MSI/88S 68000 56K ?? MICRO 82 > Musys Corp.------------------------------------------------------- > NetWork 8816 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 83 > NetWork 8820 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 84 > Nabu Manufacturing------------------------------------------------ > Personal Computer Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > NBI, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > System 1 68000 ?? UNIX ?? 84 > Technical Workstation 68000 1MB UNIX ?? 84 > NCR Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- > Decision Mate V Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 > I-9010 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > I-9020 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > I-9040 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > PC-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > PC-8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 82 > NEC--------------------------------------------------------------- > PC6000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 > PC6001A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 86 > PC8201A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 > PC8401A Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 > PC8800 Z80 w/80086 64K ?? MICRO 83 > PC8801A Z80 w/8086 64K ?? MICRO 86 > Astra 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Astra 205 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Astra 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Astra 230 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Astra 250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Astra 270 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Astra 330 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Astra 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Astra 370 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Nelma Data Corp.-------------------------------------------------- > Persona Z80 ?? ?? MICRO 82 > Persona II Z80 w/8088 192K ?? MICRO 83 > New England Digital----------------------------------------------- > A-40 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 > A-60 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 78 > Nixdorf Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- > Model 80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 > Model 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > Model 8810 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 8845 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 8870/M15 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 8870/1 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Model 8870/3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 8890/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 8890/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 8890/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > NNC Electronics--------------------------------------------------- > System 80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > System 80W Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > NorthStar Computers----------------------------------------------- > Advantage 8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Advantage Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Horizon 8/16 Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Horizon Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 77 > Northern Telecom Terminal Sys.------------------------------------ > 405 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 445 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 503 8085 256K ?? MICRO 81 > M4120 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > M4121 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > M4122 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > Ohio Scientific--------------------------------------------------- > MasterKey 220 6502 48K OS-65 MICRO 83 > MasterKey 230 6502 52K OS-65 MICRO 82 > MasterKey 250 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 330 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > MasterKey 350 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 2301 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > OSI-710 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > OSI-720 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > WorkSystem 200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 > WorkSystem 300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 > Olympia USA, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > OPC 6502 52K ?? MICRO 82 > Omni-Source------------------------------------------------------- > OS-26 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-48 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-526 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-548 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-826 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-848 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > Ontel Corp.------------------------------------------------------- > 1505 Z80 w/6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > 1507 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Amigo Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Onyx Systems Inc.------------------------------------------------- > 6810 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 84 > C8001 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 > C8002 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > C8002A ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Sundance 16 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Sundance ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Sundance II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > System 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Osborne Computer-------------------------------------------------- > Osborne 1 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 81 > Osborne Executive Z80 128K CP/M PORT. 83 > Vixen Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 > OSM Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ > Zeus 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Zeus 2-16 Z80 w/8088 320K ?? MICRO 83 > Zeus 3 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > Zeus 3X ?? ?? ?? MICRO 85 > Zeus 4 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Zeus 16 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > Otrona Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Attache Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Panasonic--------------------------------------------------------- > Link HHC 6502 4K ?? MICRO 83 > RL-H 6502 8K ?? MICRO 81 > PCE Systems------------------------------------------------------- > Voyager I ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 > Voyager II ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 > Pegasus Data Systems---------------------------------------------- > Peanut Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Pegasus Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Personal Microcomputers, Inc.------------------------------------- > PMC Micromate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > PMC 80 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 80 > PMC 81 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 81 > PMC 101 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Pertec Computer Corp---------------------------------------------- > 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > 3200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > XL50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Phoenix Digital Corp.--------------------------------------------- > CPW 09 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 > Optoview 100 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 > Plessy Peripheral Systems----------------------------------------- > System-24 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 > System-44 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 > Plexus Computers, Inc.-------------------------------------------- > P/25 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 > P/35 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 > Point Four Data--------------------------------------------------- > Mark 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Mark 5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Mark 8 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Polo Microsystems, Inc.------------------------------------------- > Polo System I Z80 w/80188 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Polymorphic Systems----------------------------------------------- > Model 813 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 77 > Model 8810 Z80 w/80186 256K ?? MICRO 83 > Pragmatic Design-------------------------------------------------- > Inspector 200 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 81 > Product Associates------------------------------------------------ > Z Disk I Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Z Disk II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Z Disk III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Q1 Corporation---------------------------------------------------- > Microlite II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Quasar Data Products---------------------------------------------- > QDP-100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > QDP-200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > QDP-300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Quasar Company---------------------------------------------------- > HHC 6502 2K ?? ?? 83 > Quasitronics------------------------------------------------------ > Q-5048 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 82 > Quay-------------------------------------------------------------- > 90 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 > 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > 900 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 910M ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 82 > Rabbit Computer, Inc.--------------------------------------------- > Wrap Bit II Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > Rair Microcomputer Corp.------------------------------------------ > Black Box 3/30 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Black Box 3/50 8085 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Business Computer 8085 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Sage Computer Technology------------------------------------------ > Sage II 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 > Sage IV 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 > Sanyo Business Systems Corp.-------------------------------------- > MBC-1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > MBC-1100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1150 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1160 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1250 Z80 (x2) 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-2000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-3000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-4050 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 85 > PHC-20 8085 4K ?? ?? 83 > Scenic Computer Systems------------------------------------------- > Scenic 8085 70K ?? MICRO 81 > Scientific Data Systems------------------------------------------- > 420 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 > Seattle Computer Products----------------------------------------- > Gazelle I 8086 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Seequa Computer--------------------------------------------------- > Chameleon Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 > PC Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 84 > XT Z80 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Sharp Electronics------------------------------------------------- > PC-1211 6809 2K ?? ?? 81 > PC-1250A 6809 ?? ?? ?? 84 > PC-1260 6809 4K ?? ?? 84 > PC-1261 6809 10K ?? ?? 84 > PC-1350 6809 5K ?? ?? 84 > PC-1500A 6809 8K ?? ?? 83 > System 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Sierra Computer Systems------------------------------------------- > CX Workstation 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 > Sierra National--------------------------------------------------- > 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > 4000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- > ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 > SKS Computers----------------------------------------------------- > SKS 1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Solo Systems------------------------------------------------------ > 1116 Solostation 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Sony Video Communications----------------------------------------- > SMC-70 Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Sord Computers, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > IS-11 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 > M 23 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68 Z80 w/68000 256K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68MX 68000 512K ?? MICRO 87 > Southern Computer Systems----------------------------------------- > Series 8000 8088 w/8085 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Sperry Corporation------------------------------------------------ > BC/7-600 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 83 > Mapper 5 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Star Technologies, Inc.------------------------------------------- > M1 68000 512K ?? ?? 82 > Ministar 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 81 > Ministar 1200 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 > Nanostar 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > Stride Micro------------------------------------------------------ > 420 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 > 440 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 > 460 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 > Sumicom, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- > 830 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 83 > Systems Group----------------------------------------------------- > 2900 Z80 128K ?? ?? 81 > ExpressLine 68000 768K ?? ?? 83 > Syzygy------------------------------------------------------------ > Syzygy Computer System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Tandy Corporation------------------------------------------------- > 4D Micro Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 > 102 80C85 32K ?? PORT. 86 > 200 80C85 24K ?? PORT. 85 > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Color Computer 2 6809E 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Color Computer 3 6809E 128K ?? MICRO 86 > PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 > PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 > PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 > TRS-80 Model 4P Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > TRS-80 Model 12 Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 16B 68000 w/Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 100 Z80 24K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 > TRS-80 Model II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 > TRS-80 Model III Z80 64K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-1 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-2 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 82 > Tano Corporation-------------------------------------------------- > AVT-2 6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Tarbell Electronics----------------------------------------------- > Empire Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Rebel Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Televideo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- > TPC I Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 > TS 800 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 86 > TS 802 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 82 > TS 803 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 > TS 804 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 > TS 806 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 81 > TS 816 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 82 > 3R Computer Products---------------------------------------------- > Avatar TC10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Avatar TC3278 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Texas Instruments------------------------------------------------- > 99/2 TMS9900 4K ?? MICRO 83 > 99/4A TMS9900 16K ?? MICRO 83 > 200 TMS9900 64K ?? ?? 83 > 300 TMS9900 128K ?? ?? 83 > 990 TMS9900 2MB ?? ?? 81 > CC 40 TMS9900 6K ?? ?? 83 > Timex Computer---------------------------------------------------- > TS 1000 Z80 1K ?? MICRO 83 > TS 2000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Torch Computers--------------------------------------------------- > Model CF110 Z80 w/6502 96K ?? MICRO 82 > Toshiba, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- > EW100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 81 > T100 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > T200 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > T250 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Vector Graphic, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Vector 4 Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Vector 5005E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Vector 5010E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Vector 5032E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Vector SX-2000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Vector SX-3000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Vector SX-5000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Video Technology Computers, Inc.---------------------------------- > Laser 50 Z80 2K ?? PORT. 84 > Laser 128 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 128EX 65C02 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 200 6502 4K ?? ?? 83 > Laser 3000 6502 64K ?? ?? 83 > Wicat Systems, Inc.----------------------------------------------- > System 150 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 155 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 160 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 300 68000 2MB ?? ?? 83 > System 2200 68000 1MB ?? ?? 83 > Xerox Corporation------------------------------------------------- > System 744-I Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > System 744-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 16/8 Z80 w/8086 192K ?? MICRO 83 > 820-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Zeda Computers---------------------------------------------------- > 520 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 580A Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 > Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 > Zilog, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > System 8000/11 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 8000/12 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 > System 8000/21 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 8000/22 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 > System 8000/32 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 > ================================================================== > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 1 20:02:47 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E2C3@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501180247.007609b0@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:58 PM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >Great list! Some additions & changes: ...and yet some more... >- Add: MITS Altair 680, 68000, 1976 Ummm... no. 6800 mpu (not 68000) >- Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim >Shoppa has one) The NorthStar "Advantage" (I have one too) >- Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS Interesting... Many I worked with ran OASIS. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 1 20:29:14 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E2C3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info. All but the following have been added. > - Add: Apple/Tempest TPI 863T milspec Macintosh, 68000, 1986 Which company actually manufactured it? > - Add: Apple/Honeywell "Black Apple" custom manufactured Apple II+ Same as the Bell&Howell black apple or different? > - Change: Atari Mega machines were the Mega ST (with 1, 2 or 4MB, 1987) > and the Mega STE (improved, 1991). I've never heard of a "Mega 1" or > "Mega 2" This info came from a 1989 Atari price list - as you can imagine I'm now slightly confused... > - Add: Commodore Amiga 2000/3000/4000 (Too new?) Yeah - I pretty much stick with the 10 years or older guideline. > - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General portable Probably going to need a little more data... > - Add: Intecolor CompuColor II, 8080A, ~1979 Are you sure that this is not actually one of the listed model numbers? > - Change: "Kaypro Corp" should be Non-Linear Systems I think you're right (as that's what my Kaypros say) but I've seen it also listed as Kaypro Corp... was there a name change? > - Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim > Shoppa has one) And I'm sure he'll be popping up sooner or later... Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 20:33:06 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:20 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E3A0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | >- Add: MITS Altair 680, 68000, 1976 | Ummm... no. 6800 mpu (not 68000) Typo... thanks | >- Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim | >Shoppa has one) | The NorthStar "Advantage" (I have one too) Yeah, come to think of it, the one Tim has that I was thinking of was actually a similar IMSAI with built-in monitor. The name was something like "DPC-1" | >- Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS | Interesting... Many I worked with ran OASIS. B^} I guess it would have been clearer to say "NorthStar Horizons shipped with NSDOS". I'm sure most of them "primarily ran" CP/M after the owners realized how obscure and limiting NSDOS was ("cd" to Copy Disk? Gee, a DOS user would never type that by accident!) Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 21:16:08 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B9A1EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | > - Add: Apple/Tempest TPI 863T milspec Macintosh, 68000, 1986 | Which company actually manufactured it? Apple shipped the internal components to Tempest, who put it in a milspec housing. | > - Add: Apple/Honeywell "Black Apple" custom manufactured Apple II+ | Same as the Bell&Howell black apple or different? Duh! Of course I meant Bell & Howell. | > - Change: Atari Mega machines were the Mega ST (with 1, 2 or 4MB, 1987) | > and the Mega STE (improved, 1991). I've never heard of a "Mega 1" or | > "Mega 2" | This info came from a 1989 Atari price list - as you can imagine I'm | now slightly confused... Did a quick bit of research - the numbers indicate amount of RAM only. The two Megas are the Mega ST and Mega STe (lower case e). | > - Add: Commodore Amiga 2000/3000/4000 (Too new?) | Yeah - I pretty much stick with the 10 years or older guideline. The A2000 was introduced in March 1987 along with the A500, so I guess they're under the wire :) | > - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General portable | Probably going to need a little more data... The portable was called the Data General 1. The original MicroNOVA was the MN601 (by PDP-8 designer Edson DeCastro, who came to Data General from DEC). Trivia: Did you know that AViiON is NOVA spelled backwards with an "ii" (signifying 2) in the middle, as in NOVA II ? | > - Add: Intecolor CompuColor II, 8080A, ~1979 | Are you sure that this is not actually one of the listed model | numbers? The CompuColor II was only referred to as such in any ads I ever saw. It was a 13" color display system with a hard-sectored 5 1/4" drive to the right of the monitor, and a keyboard with multicolored keys. Trivia: CompuColor CP/M had no FORMAT, you had to buy formatted diskettes from Intecolor. | > - Change: "Kaypro Corp" should be Non-Linear Systems | I think you're right (as that's what my Kaypros say) but I've seen it also | listed as Kaypro Corp... was there a name change? Kaypro was founded in 1952 as Non-Linear Systems, the first manufacturer of digital voltmeters. Somewhere along the line they changed to Kaypro Corporation, but I don't think they did so until their Chapter 11 in ~1990. Certainly at the time of the Kaypro II, they were still known as Non-Linear Systems. Trivia: Arthur C. Clarke wrote 2010 on a Kaypro II. By the way, now that I think about it, the KIM-1 was by MOS Technologies, which hadn't yet changed their name to Commodore. I don't know how you want to handle that. | > - Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim | > Shoppa has one) | And I'm sure he'll be popping up sooner or later... North Star Advantage, as Bill kindly pointed out. There was also a similar IMSAI with built-in monitor, I have a catalog at home with the name. Kai From BigLouS at aol.com Thu May 1 21:40:39 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. Message-ID: <970501223929_52924666@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-30 03:16:50 EDT,idavis@comland.com (Isaac Davis) writes: > there is also a product called ape which is at http://www.nacs.net/~classics which allows you to connect your atari to a pc. They also have schematics . I use ape with my setup and it has worked just fine. I download Atari software to my PC and Ape does the rest. The cable is fairly easy to build if you have some soldering experience. Lou From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 1 23:27:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B9A1EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 1, 97 07:16:08 pm Message-ID: <9705020327.AA11147@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970501/21e89a10/attachment.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Thu May 1 22:47:14 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970501234712.005d1eb0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Tim Shoppa happened to blather: >Well, when it comes down to it, vanilla CP/M never had >FORMAT. Didn't matter a whole lot on vanilla systems, as >8" floppies always come preformatted. Yes, but what about *chocolate* CP/M? Huh? How about that, Mr. Smart-Guy??? Everybody knows that chocolate is better than vanilla!!! ;^> I'm just joking... still working & it's been a long night! Anyone here have any experience with Unix NewsServer Daemons? That be me problem tonite, matey! See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From scott at saskatoon.com Fri May 2 00:17:17 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <199705020514.XAA21484@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > By the way, now that I think about it, the KIM-1 was by MOS > Technologies, which hadn't yet changed their name to Commodore. I don't > know how you want to handle that. If I'm not mistaken, both names are on the board. I have a close-up picture of that somewhere... I'll try to dig it out tommorrow. ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 2 00:59:02 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E3A0@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501225902.006e6768@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:33 PM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote: > | >- Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the >model, Tim > | >Shoppa has one) > > | The NorthStar "Advantage" (I have one too) > >Yeah, come to think of it, the one Tim has that I was thinking of was >actually a similar IMSAI with built-in monitor. The name was something >like "DPC-1" Well... letters and numbers anyway... The IMSAI VDP-80. (sold and serviced those too!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Fri May 2 01:05:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Another problem with the idea is after the first one - what's left? Um, another show! This thing will (hopefully) grow year after year until it becomes just another one of those great shows to go to. I want to give the show some prestige and recognition, but this is something that comes over time, and as long as it's done right. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri May 2 01:26:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970501180247.007609b0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >- Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS > > Interesting... Many I worked with ran OASIS. B^} Speaking of which, I have a California Computer Systems S-100 based mini and had OASIS on 8" floppy but I messed up the system disk somehow (it won't boot anymore). Does anyone have a spare copy lying around on 8" floppy they could spare? Would this CCS system read such floppy? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Fri May 2 07:12:41 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <199705020514.XAA21484@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > By the way, now that I think about it, the KIM-1 was by MOS > > Technologies, which hadn't yet changed their name to Commodore. I don't > > know how you want to handle that. > If I'm not mistaken, both names are on the board. I have a close-up > picture of that somewhere... I'll try to dig it out tommorrow. Mine does anyway. I think it is one of the *newer* ones. (As I remember, my order was held up to get chips that were backordered and lt *newest* chip date is 8009 [I think that means week 9 of 1980 8-)]) By the Xtal in the tinned copper it says commodore C* - MOS where thhe * is the little flag thingy Commodore used. BC From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Fri May 2 06:23:23 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Well, here's my 2 bits on the ??'s in the Tandy Line... > 4D Micro Z80A 64K TRSDOS 6.X MICRO 85 There were really MANY DOS's for the 1/3/4 line, TRSDOS is what shipped with it. Few people use TRSDOS on the 1/3 where NEWDOS/80, LDOS were more popular. TRSDOS 6.X was really a licensed version of LDOS, IIRC. 100 80C85 32K Proprietary ROM Forgot about the 100, the predecessor of the 102. The 100 was thicker, by about 1/4", and had a few ROM bugs that the 102 fixed. Also, the 102 had a System Bus OUT port in a convenient place (where the printer & other I/O ports were) while the 100's system bus was under a case on the bottom of the machine. > 102 80C85 32K Proprietary ROM PORT. 86 There were some rudimentary OS for the 100/102 with the serial-port, tough-as-nails, 3.5" floppy drive. Without the drive, you used a ROM-based menu system. > 200 80C85 24K Proprietary ROM PORT. 85 A souped-up 100/102, in a clamshell. Same rules apply. > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 I'm fairly certain this machine had it's own flavor of TRSDOS but I'm not big on the 2/12/6K line. > Color Computer 2 6809E 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Color Computer 3 6809E 128K ?? MICRO 86 Not much I can do here. There was a Coco 1 which topped out at 32K with the same CPU (I think). There was also a micro- version of the COCO, the MC-10, which was perversely half- compatible with the COCO line. Had a 6809C CPU (I think), upgradable from 4K (stock) to 16K with an add-on plastic block that had a tendency to fall out at inopportune times. > PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 > PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 > PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 There are (as you'd no doubt guessed) a Portable Computer, a PC-2, and a PC-3. I don't think they carried Z80s, but I may be wrong. The PC-3 had a 24-character LCD with a max of 4K of RAM. > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 Oops... you had these. I think the Coco could go to 32K & the MC10 could only go to 16K. I'm fairly certain that the CPU on the MC10 was not a true-blue 6809. > TRS-80 Model 4P Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > TRS-80 Model 12 Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 16B 68000 w/Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 100 Z80 24K ?? MICRO 83 Another oops. I see you have the 100. But you did miss the grand-daddy of them all, the Model I. Z80A microprocessor, 48K Max RAM, Shipped with TRSDOS 2.3 in its heyday, but most people used NEWDOS/80, LDOS, or other 3rd party packages. > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 This was actually the first machine produced with the name TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of the TRS-80 line. > TRS-80 Model II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 > TRS-80 Model III Z80 64K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-1 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-2 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 82 Hope this helps! ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From spc at armigeron.com Fri May 2 10:57:37 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B9A1EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 1, 97 07:16:08 pm Message-ID: <199705021557.LAA14966@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Kai Kaltenbach once stated: > > | > - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General > portable > | Probably going to need a little more data... > > The portable was called the Data General 1. > Ah, I have a Data General 1. Made the cover of Byte in '84 (can't recall which month, but I can find out). Neat machine. 80C88 based and mostly IBM PCompatible and possibly the best keyboard I've ever seen on a portable/laptop period. I have 400+K RAM (can't recall how much offhand), two 3.5" 720K floppies, the external 5.25" floppy drive (thing is large) and printer (neat little thing, connects to one of the serial ports). It also has an LCD screen (non-backlit) that is compatible with CGA (it's actually capable of 640x256 but I don't have the tech specs on the video). The serial ports are not based upon the chips used in PC (8250? I don't have my references handy) but instead use the 8251 (?), which works differently, so I can't really use any MS-DOS comm programs (bummer). It runs MS-DOS 2.11. And I couldn't beat the price (free). I still use it. -spc (I also came with a half-decent tech ref) From gram at cnct.com Fri May 2 11:13:34 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > > I'm fairly certain this machine had it's own flavor of > TRSDOS but I'm not big on the 2/12/6K line. The 16/6000 systems could run a slightly patched Model II TRSDOS, or the TRSDOS-II that had come out as the Mod 2 series hard disk OS, or TRSDOS-16, written by Ryand-McFarland and never had any applications except the MBSI/Realworld bookkeeping system, or Xenix, my personal favorite. > > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 > > Oops... you had these. I think the Coco could go to 32K & > the MC10 could only go to 16K. I'm fairly certain that the > CPU on the MC10 was not a true-blue 6809. The MC-10 contained a MC6803 processor. It would load programs recorded by a Color Computer, but for some reason the BASIC keywords were given different tokens. > > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 > > This was actually the first machine produced with the name > TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of > the TRS-80 line. No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not TRS-80. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Fri May 2 10:36:24 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <199705021722.KAA07554@mars.ark.com> > A ][+ running AppleWorks? You're a sadist. Seems to work reasonably well. Think it's probably the RAM card that saves it. > > What kind of voice recog. card do you have? I have one as well but I > can't recall off-hand who the manufacturer is. I'll check it out and get back to you. -Ron Mitchell From scott at saskatoon.com Fri May 2 13:28:44 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last >TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not >TRS-80. Lies, Lies, it's all lies. The 2000 is in fact labelled TRS-80 Model 2000. I'm looking at a picture right now. The label reads: TANDY (Silver on Black) TRS-80 (Black on Silver) MODEL (The rest is Silver on Black) 2000 HD PERSONAL COMPUTER ttfn srw From zmerch at mail.northernway.net Fri May 2 13:47:03 1997 From: zmerch at mail.northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > Well, here's my 2 bits on the ??'s in the Tandy Line... > > > 102 80C85 32K Proprietary ROM PORT. 86 > > There were some rudimentary OS for the 100/102 with the > serial-port, tough-as-nails, 3.5" floppy drive. Without > the drive, you used a ROM-based menu system. I'm very big on the Tandy equipment in question (have 5 machines now...) and have already sent Bill a listing about several of the machines listed in this e-mail... but I do want to clear up a few misconceptions here. The DOS (not OS) in question above only did rudementary communication with the floppy drive... The floppy had it's own micrprocessor, ram and DOS built-in, and all you had to do is send it commands. That's one reason why it's so easy to interface to any other system (like a PeeCee). You just pipe it commands & data thru the RS-232, it does the rest. It still relied on the ROM-based menu system to work whether or not the drive was plugged in. Even the DVI (Disk-Video Interface, which enabled you to use an 80x25 mono text screen with VT52 (or was it VT-100) emulation and 2 40TkSSDD drives) still relied on the ROM-based software to function. > > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > > I'm fairly certain this machine had it's own flavor of > TRSDOS but I'm not big on the 2/12/6K line. The 6000 could run anything for the II/12 on it's Z80 CPU, but the main OS for this machine was XENIX, which ran on the 68K. > Not much I can do here. There was a Coco 1 which topped out > at 32K with the same CPU (I think). There was also a micro- > version of the COCO, the MC-10, which was perversely half- > compatible with the COCO line. Had a 6809C CPU (I think), > upgradable from 4K (stock) to 16K with an add-on plastic > block that had a tendency to fall out at inopportune times. No, the CoCo1 went to 64K, just like all the others. The *early* revision boards needed a small hardware mod (2 wires, I believe) but the later models (altho advertised at 32K) were in fact completely function 64K upgrades. Also, the MC-10 with the 16K "dongle" totalled 20K. You are correct in the statement that it was a very poor arrangement for upgrading, tho! > > PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 > > PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 > > PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 > > There are (as you'd no doubt guessed) a Portable Computer, > a PC-2, and a PC-3. I don't think they carried Z80s, but > I may be wrong. The PC-3 had a 24-character LCD with a > max of 4K of RAM. Trivia: The PC-2 (which I *think* had a 26-chr screen) could do graphics! I programmed in a craps game that actually showed the dice! Wish I still had 'er! > > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 > > Oops... you had these. I think the Coco could go to 32K & > the MC10 could only go to 16K. I'm fairly certain that the > CPU on the MC10 was not a true-blue 6809. See above, but also, the MC-10 was based on the Motorola 6803, and was *not* ML compatible whatsoever, as the instruction base was more along the lines of the 6800, not the 09. > Hope this helps! Me too! Cheers, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From gram at cnct.com Fri May 2 13:47:49 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > >No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last > >TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not > >TRS-80. > > Lies, Lies, it's all lies. The 2000 is in fact labelled TRS-80 Model > 2000. > > TANDY (Silver on Black) > TRS-80 (Black on Silver) > MODEL (The rest is Silver on Black) > 2000 HD > PERSONAL > COMPUTER OK, you're right, now that I've had time to think. It was the first machine to have the Tandy name instead of the Radio Shack name. Mine was left with my (now ex) wife in California, so I can't see it. And there's been a lot of water under the bridge (and brain cells killed) since I spent that much time with them. My Tandy 2000 (non-HD) spent most of its time as a terminal to my Model 16 or a 3B1 and the rest of its time as a 512k print buffer and serial/parallel converter for the 3B1, the 16, the 4p, the Mod 1 and the Color Computer, since my only printer in those days was an ancient MX-80 with a bootleg Graftrax ROM. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Fri May 2 10:20:38 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: References: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: <199705021920.PAA24968@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> On Fri, 02 May, Ward and/or Lisa wrote: ... many things that I stand corrected on ... > > > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 > > > > This was actually the first machine produced with the name > > TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of > > the TRS-80 line. > > No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last > TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not > TRS-80. Hmmm... I know that the Tandy 2000 was called a Tandy 2000 BUT, I seem to recall seeing the familiar TRS-80-style logo across the top of the keyboard above the function keys and also on the case of the CPU the full-blown Radio Shack TRS-80 Logo. Does anybody out there have a T2K they could look at to verify this? -gk > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > > ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Fri May 2 14:46:39 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <9705021946.AA20448@aztec.asu.edu> Some other comments: The Exormacs from Motorola never, as far as I knew, ever ran Unix. It predated the Unix bit. I don't know that the VME/10 ever ran Unix, either. The preferred OS on those machines was VERSAdos. I like VERSAdos, still use it occasionally. Powerful enough to be quite useful, and clunky enough to be interesting! Apparently, there is enough legacy in VERSAdos that a 3rd party has "inherited" the rights and still sells it as a Real-Time Operating System! The CPU in a CC-40 was not a 9900, but rather a TMS7000. Still an interesting processor from my favorite company, Texas Instruments! There were several makes to the 990 mini line, but I'm not familiar with it. Some used discrete logic, some used the 9900 processor chip for the CPU. The OS of choice was DX-10. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Fri May 2 18:36:03 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Hi all. > > After getting your numerous recommendations on the last > version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It > now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base > RAM, Primary OS, > > > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR > ================================================================== > Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 > Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 To add to his list, fill in blanks: Z-89 CP/M Z-90 CP/M Z-100 192K/768K CP/M & Z-DOS Heath Corporation------------------------------------------------- H-89 Z80 48K CP/M Micro 79 H-90 (?) H-100 8088 w/8085 192K/ CP/M & Z-DOS Micro 81 768K The Heath Corp. computers (Heathkit) actually preceded the Zenith computers, although they are basically the same computer: the Heath version is the kit form, and the Zenith version is the factory assembled form. Heath originally designed them, then Zenith acquired Heath. I think the H/Z-100 was the first they worked together on. The Heath/Zenith H/Z-100 is a dual-operating system computer, running both CP/M and Z-DOS (Zenith DOS), then later Zenith-modified MS-DOS. The CP/M runs on the 8085, and the MS-DOS/Z-DOS boots up on the 8085, then switches to running on the 8088. Other OS available were CCP/M, CP/M-86, MMP/M (very brief), and I think that there was also a version of Xenix available, although I'm not positive about that. Seems to me it was also possible to get the Pick OS, but again, my memory is hazy as to that. At any rate, neither was the main OS if they were available. Once the 41256 RAM chip became available, the H/Z-100 had a maximum of motherboard RAM of 768K (became available from Heath/Zenith in 1985, I think). It's capable of addressing 16 Meg if someone wanted to put it in, although they would have to write their own software to manage it. Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. It was designed to run both 8- and 16-bit software, so people who had a big investment in 8-bit software running under CP/M would be more willing to buy a new computer. That dual OS design sold the military on the computer, and Zenith made a bundle on military contracts for it. Original operating speed was 5 Mhz; Heath/Zenith later upped that to 8 MHz. A common modification allows it to run at either 8 or 10 MHz. Someone has also managed to get it running at 33 MHz. However, it is not PC-compatible due to the S-100 buss design and the video. You can run a great deal of PC software on it, although the code may need patching in order to do so. Hope this adds to your computer list & provides interesting information. Susan From sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net Fri May 2 19:36:59 1997 From: sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! References: Message-ID: <336A88AB.37BF@bellsouth.net> Susan M Johnson wrote: > > On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > Hi all. > > > > After getting your numerous recommendations on the last > > version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It > > now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base > > RAM, Primary OS, > > > > > > ================================================================== > > MANUFACTURER > > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR > > ================================================================== > > Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > > Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 > > Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > > Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 > > To add to his list, fill in blanks: > > Z-89 HDOS/CP/M-80 > Z-90 HDOS/CP/M-80 > Z-100 192K/768K CP/M & Z-DOS > > Heath Corporation------------------------------------------------- -->> H-8 8080 or Z-80 48Kb HDOS/CP/M-80 <<<<<<<<---------- > H-89 Z80 48K HDOS/CP/M-80 Micro 79 > H-90 (?) > H-100 8088 w/8085 192K/ CP/M & Z-DOS Micro 81 > 768K > > The Heath Corp. computers (Heathkit) actually preceded the Zenith > computers, although they are basically the same computer: the Heath > version is the kit form, and the Zenith version is the factory assembled > form. Heath originally designed them, then Zenith acquired Heath. I > think the H/Z-100 was the first they worked together on. > No... Zenith designed 110 and 120 series but Heath designed into kit forms with assembly manuals. Barry Waltman, engineer for Heath Company resigned and fed up with Zenith. He was master designed for H-8 and H-89 series > The Heath/Zenith H/Z-100 is a dual-operating system computer, running > both CP/M and Z-DOS (Zenith DOS), then later Zenith-modified MS-DOS. The > CP/M runs on the 8085, and the MS-DOS/Z-DOS boots up on the 8085, then > switches to running on the 8088. Correct!!! Other OS available were CCP/M, CP/M-86, > MMP/M (very brief), No... there was as follows: CP/M-85, CP/M-86, Concurrent CP/M-86, ZDOS then changed to MS-DOS (with Zenith routines). and I think that there was also a version of Xenix Unforuntately, there was never using Xenix those days!!! > available, although I'm not positive about that. Seems to me it was also > possible to get the Pick OS, but again, my memory is hazy as to that. At > any rate, neither was the main OS if they were available. > > Once the 41256 RAM chip became available, the H/Z-100 had a maximum of > motherboard RAM of 768K (became available from Heath/Zenith in 1985, I > think). It's capable of addressing 16 Meg if someone wanted to put it in, > although they would have to write their own software to manage it. Correct!!! > > Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 > & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not > common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. > During days of H/Z-110 and 120... there are only two floppy disk drives, 5.25" and 8". The 8" system was short lived. There was never using 3.5" but some people successful attempted this way when H/Z-100 were no longer in market. They have to write a special software included BIOS to work with 3.5" drive. SCSI system on H/Z-110 or 120 was very rarely. Those days it was called SASI. There was never using tape drive or CD-ROM drives because H/Z-110 or 120 never use with IDE or EIDE. But it can use with SCSI based interfaced. > It was designed to run both 8- and 16-bit software, so people who had a > big investment in 8-bit software running under CP/M would be more willing > to buy a new computer. That dual OS design sold the military on the > computer, and Zenith made a bundle on military contracts for it. > It was very sad part of H/Z-110 or 120... people use 8-bit software were almost never existence because of 8085. During early days when Zenith developed new 110 or 120. They abandoned idea to use 8086 and Z-80. They decided against it because of cost and difficult to interface. Barry Watzman disagreed and quitted. Zenith people tend to think for themselves and very selfish also greedy. Military gave a big contracted but later they were not happy with Zenith and decided no longer business. > Original operating speed was 5 Mhz; Heath/Zenith later upped that to 8 > MHz. A common modification allows it to run at either 8 or 10 MHz. > Someone has also managed to get it running at 33 MHz. > FCC tracer will love to catch a person who run at 33 MHz. The board was not design to go that higher. Perhaps he must put a lot of leads to block excessive RF and EMI. > However, it is not PC-compatible due to the S-100 buss design and the > video. You can run a great deal of PC software on it, although > the code may need patching in order to do so. > There were two famous hardware-based additional will allow to run PC-compatible software. They were GEMINI and EasyPC. I am using GEMINI but of course I cannot run Windows 95 :-( > Hope this adds to your computer list & provides interesting information. > > Susan From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 2 20:25:35 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Trade Sun for Atari ST? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone in LA "Miscellaneous Lists" wanted to trade a Sun 3 for my Atari ST. I have sent a few emails, but have received no response. If you are still interested, contact me via email. If anyone else (in Northern/Central) California would like to trade old Sun/Unix/interesting machines/equipment/software for an Atari ST, let me know. I would prefer not to ship this stuff since it is pretty heavy and fills several cubic feet. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the list of stuff: 1 Atari 1040STF 3 SH204 Harddisks 1 SF314 Floppy drive 1 SF854 Floppy drive 1 SC1224 Monitor (color) 2 STM1 Mouse 1 Marconi RB2 Trackball 1 Standard Atari joystick There are also a bunch of cables for connecting everything togther, 10 or so magazines, a BASIC manual, 10 or so floppy disks, and what I believe are schematics for the monitor. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat May 3 21:55:15 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 40 References: <199705020702.AAA04016@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <336BFA93.351B@goldrush.com> Lemme see if I can do some work on the Commodore Portion: (I'll leave the updating to one of you folks -please?-) Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 BASIC 2.0 & 7.0 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 BASIC 2.0 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Never heard of it. Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 1.1, 1.2 Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 1.2, 1.3 CBM 3008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? BASIC 2.0 CBM 4004 6502 4K ?? MICRO 79 I strongly doubt this one, a 4004??? CBM 4008 * 6502 8K ?? MICRO 79 BASIC 2.0 or 4.0 CBM 4016 * 6502 16K ?? MICRO 79 BASIC 2.0 or 4.0 CBM 4032 * 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 BASIC 2.0 or 4.0 * Should have designation for small or large screen such as FF for Fat Forty (large screen models were alway BASIC 4.0, small screen could be 2.0 or 4.0) CBM 8008? 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? 8k? I don't think there ever was one... I could be wrong. :/ CBM 8016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 8096 6502 96k ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8296 6502 96k ?? MICRO ?? BASIC 4.0 CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM P-500 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 MICRO 82 Should be CBM P-500 Any 'real' ones have been P-500s. I have one. I never read of a B-128 40 or B-256 40. CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 There is a 700 But not sure if it is a repeat. Executive 64 6510 64K CBMOS PORT. 83 BASIC 2.0 PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 4k,8k BASIC1.0 or 2.0 PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 8,16,32k BASIC 2.0 16 ---- 16K ?? MICRO 84 Plus 4 ---- 64K ?? MICRO 84 8501 BASIC 3.5 CBM SP9000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? SuperPET 6502 & 6809 96K ?? MICRO 81 Same computer^^^^^^^^^^ BASIC 4.0 & MANY Others VIC-20 6502 5K ?? MICRO 81 BASIC 2.0 Additions: Ultimax 6510 4K BASIC 2.0 MICRO 82 Amiga 2000 68000 1,024k ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 86 Amiga 2500 68020 ? ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 8? Amiga 3000 Amiga 600 68000 1,024k ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 8? Amiga 1200 68020 2,048k ADOS 2.0 3.? MICRO Amiga 4000 68030?40? ADOS 2.0 3.? Amiga 4000T 68030?40? ADOS 3.? Commodore PC-10, PC-20, Commodore Colt, etc. IBM clones, (who cares.) Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat May 3 23:37:43 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 40 In-Reply-To: <336BFA93.351B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > Lemme see if I can do some work on the Commodore Portion: > (I'll leave the updating to one of you folks -please?-) > > > Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- > 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 > 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 > BASIC 2.0 & 7.0 > > 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 > BASIC 2.0 > > 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Never heard of it. I think that might be a "65" in which case it would be: 65 65816 ???k CBMOS MICRO 93? For those who don't know what a C=65 is, ut was a prototype 16 bit C=64 with a built in 3.5" drive. Only a few of these baby's around! > CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM P-500 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 MICRO 82 > Should be CBM P-500 Any 'real' ones have been P-500s. I have one. > I never read of a B-128 40 or B-256 40. The B-128 40 was actually called the C128-40 (not to be confused with a regular C128). The line would read: C128-40 6509 (Z80 or 8088 opt.) 128k (expandable to 960k) BASIC 4.0 MICRO 1983 > CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 > There is a 700 But not sure if it is a repeat. The "B" models al;l came out in '83. The B128-80 had the same expansion options as the C128-40 and the B256-80 came standard with a 6509 and a 8088 with room for a 8087 (optional) and a Z-80 (optional). It had 256k ram stock (expandable to 960k). > Amiga 3000 > Amiga 600 68000 1,024k ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 8? > Amiga 1200 68020 2,048k ADOS 2.0 3.? MICRO > Amiga 4000 68030?40? ADOS 2.0 3.? > Amiga 4000T 68030?40? ADOS 3.? Don't forget the A1500's and A2500's! (same as A2000 basically) > Commodore PC-10, PC-20, Commodore Colt, etc. IBM clones, (who cares.) The Commdore FAQ has a whole bunch more in the Canonical List of Commodore Products. Unfortunately, I am too lazy to type ALL the models in so... Les From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 4 00:50:46 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Help ID this card... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970503225046.006e92a4@agora.rdrop.com> Should be a simple one, but lets see... (and 'cause I can't get to that section of my archives!) Card from an Apple II, wondering if it might be the interface for a ProFile HD. Markings on card: Xebec (now you know why I suspect a HD ctrlr) FCC ID CF77KL103916APPLE Assy 103916-04 Rev H-04 S/N 9-0733 What says the council? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Sun May 4 15:53:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Help ID this card... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970503225046.006e92a4@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > Should be a simple one, but lets see... (and 'cause I can't get to that > section of my archives!) > > Card from an Apple II, wondering if it might be the interface for a ProFile > HD. > > Markings on card: > > Xebec (now you know why I suspect a HD ctrlr) > FCC ID CF77KL103916APPLE > Assy 103916-04 > Rev H-04 > S/N 9-0733 Just as I suspected. Its a HD controller card alright, but for the Sider harddrive. As far as I know, it won't work with the Profile. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun May 4 18:03:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: Well, here's this weekend's take: Among several computer's, I also brought in quite a few books. Here are the titles in case anyone's counting: PET Personal Computer Guide (1982) TRS-80 Color Computer and MC-10 Programs (1983) CP/M Handbook with MP/M (1980) How to Get Started with CP/M (1981) Mastering CP/M (1983) Using CP/M (1980) Color Computer Basic09 Programming Language Reference (with software) Osborne CP/M User's Guide [not Osbourne computer] (1981) The Elementary Commodore 64 (1983) Programming Techniques for Level II Basic (1980) Color Computer Playground (1983) Sams ToolKit Series VIC20 Edition (1984) Graphics Guide to the Commodore 64 (1984) TRS-80 Color Computer Programs (1982) I also got these manuals/software: TRS-80 Model II Operations Manual TRS-80 Scripsit Manual TRS-80 Videotex Commodore 64 Bonus Cassette Pack (this is 5 cassettes still in the original shrinkwrap of all things) I'm finding that I am more interested now in the accessories, like cables, manuals, modems, datasettes, etc. than in the computers I find now because I pretty much have all the common systems. What I really need to get a lot of my systems running are power supplies or, in most cases, the original video cable. A lot of these lame-o manufacturers of yester year (namely Commodore) used cables with ridiculous pin-outs for the video. Now onto the hardware...first some accessories: TRS-80 Modem I (very cool) (2) C64 1541 drives VIC 1541 drive Commodore 1531 Datasette And these systems: Commodore Plus4 Commodore 64 (for parts to fix my broken one) Atari 5200 (have 5 of these but none with the funky video/power adapter...this one had one so I bought it). Odyssey 3000 [!] (stand-alone unit with 4 built-in games...Pong-type games...by Magnavox) Laser 50 PC [!] (cool little "portable computer"...has a one-line 20 character LCD display with built-in BASIC...it is about half the width and thickness of a typical laptop...it is not a serious computer, more like a toy; manufactured by Vtech, which is the company that makes all those kids computer toys; circa 1985) Between the Odyssey 3000 and the Laser 50, I can't decide what I should choose as my catch of the weekend. Both are systems I had never even heard of or seen, so its always a nice surprise to pick up something like these out of the blue. Last but not least, I got this luggable that I need some help identifying. It is a portable that looks very much like an Osbourne (which is what I thought it was at first but realized it wasn't). It has a built in 7" screen and two 5.25" floppies. It has one knob on the front for contrast, and next to that is an RJ-14 (6-conductor) jack for the keyboard. There is no identifying mark on it anywhere. The front cover pops off revealing the screen/floppies and contains the keyboard. When it boots up, it just shows a flashing "K" with an underscore beneath it located at the upper left-hand corner of the screen. It doesn't do anything beyond that, which is making the identification process all the more difficult. The back has two DB25's, one male labelled SERIAL and the other female labelled PARALLEL. There are also some peripheral card openings. Cracking it opens reveals that it has what looks to be an XT bus with 4 slots. There are 2 cards and a hard drive inside. One card is labelled "Hyper CLOCK" and is obviously a clock card. The other is a Racal-Vadic modem. Then the 3rd & 4th slots are taken up by a hard-card (hard drive on a card) which plugs into one slot. It is manufactured by Tandon. The only chip of significance inside is a Motorola labelled MC6845P. I'm speculating that this is the CPU. There is a label on the motherboard (which is huge, measuring almost 2 feet square) which says "Corona Data Systems" and then "200290-512" which I am guessing means it has 512K. There are 4 rows of 16 each RAM chips...half are soldered in and half are plugged into sockets. Lastly, a label on the back of the outside say "Model M18P-2" and the keyboard is made by Keytronics. I didn't write it down but I believe I saw a date somewhere of 1981. Any help figuring this behemoth out would be appreciated. After figuring it wasn't an osbourne 1, I was going to pass on it but I offered $5 and for the hell of it and got it. Maybe it'll turn out be something cool. Oh yeah, total bill was $44.00. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun May 4 19:33:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 4, 97 04:03:19 pm Message-ID: <9705042333.AA09025@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1079 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970504/852b89d2/attachment.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun May 4 19:26:51 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199705050026.RAA25833@mx3.u.washington.edu> At 07:38 PM 5/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >> There is a label on the motherboard (which is huge, >> measuring almost 2 feet square) which says "Corona Data Systems" and then >> "200290-512" which I am guessing means it has 512K. > >Corona Data Systems was an early IBM-PC clone manufacturer from >1983 or so. I thought they went out of business when IBM sued >them big time for infringing IBM's BIOS copyright. Sam, Just in case you're interested, I do have the original Corona-specific versions of MS-DOS for their machines, both 1.25 and 2.11. I would think you'd be able to boot it with just about any 5-1/4" boot disk though, as I know of someone that got a new Pentium to boot with the Corona 2.11 disk, so there doesn't seem to be anything odd in the bios calls at boot up. There do appear to be some Corona-specific utilities on them though. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun May 4 18:25:24 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <336D1AE4.51F1@mindspring.com> Sam's share about his weekend take, made me want to crow a little about mine. At a local yard sale I found a Commodore 16 in original box, w/ user's manual AND monitor cable (even the original warranty card was still in there)...for $5.00. But the crown jewel was the Commodore SX64 that the guy had inside, and was willing to sell for $25.00. In perfect shape with a lot of original software (including an early version of GEOS). I have been wanting one of these for a while! I also have begun focusing on the accessories, especially if they are mint or near it. To me a good user's manual, or a batch of original software that is still usable is every bit as desirable as a fine old machine. Kirk dynasoar@mindspring.com From welsh at sleepy.ponyexpress.net Sun May 4 20:25:36 1997 From: welsh at sleepy.ponyexpress.net (welsh@sleepy.ponyexpress.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: recent finds Message-ID: <3.0.16.19960504202216.233f29e6@sleepy.ponyexpress.net> From zmerch at northernway.net Sun May 4 22:42:21 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970504234219.00928860@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Steven J. Feinsmith happened to blather: >Susan M Johnson wrote: >> Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 >> & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not >> common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. > >During days of H/Z-110 and 120... there are only two floppy disk drives, >5.25" and 8". The 8" system was short lived. There was never using >3.5" >but some people successful attempted this way when H/Z-100 were no >longer >in market. They have to write a special software included BIOS to work >with 3.5" drive. SCSI system on H/Z-110 or 120 was very rarely. Those >days it was called SASI. There was never using tape drive or CD-ROM >drives >because H/Z-110 or 120 never use with IDE or EIDE. But it can use with >SCSI based interfaced. I have a few comments on what each of you said: Steven: Notice that Susan wrote "Currently," at the beginning of the sentance. That means that altho the 3.5" disk drives weren't available at the time of the machine's introduction, you can easily get any machine that uses the standard 34-pin floppy interface to use a 3.5" disk drive. I currently use 3.5" drives on both my Atari 800 and my Tandy Color Computer 3, neither of which had 3.5" drives available at the time of their introduction. Provided you were replacing an 80TkDSDD 5.25" (or lesser) drive with an 80TkDSDD 3.5" drive, you would not need a new BIOS, as the drives are electrically equivilant. Steven: Also, SASI and SCSI are *different*, SASI being the precursor of SCSI. Altho they are *somewhat* compatible IIRC, SCSI did have extra features that could not be used with a SASI interface. Susan: You're sentance above is slightly misleading, however, as there were no 96tpi 3.5" drives that I've ever heard of (and I own some *weird* ones!) Everything from the 200K SSSD Tandy Portable Disk Drive 2 (used for Tandy's *early* non-MSDOS laptops) right on up to the 2.88Meg ED drives are 135TPI. Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 5 01:08:42 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: recent finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19960504202216.233f29e6@sleepy.ponyexpress.net> Message-ID: > >From the libary booksale this past week..... > > Books > > SupersPort Port Computer User/Technical Manual (Zenith Data Systems) > > TOTAL COST $1.00 (one buck) > If you don't have a SupersPort, i am willing to give you the cost of the whole bunch of stuff for that manual (I have one, need a manual) Of course, $1 plus shipping! :) Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 5 01:13:14 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970504234219.00928860@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: I think AT&T made some funky 96 tpi drives in the 80's. (Probably to match their 96tpi 720k 5 1/4" drives) My PC6300 has support for them in the bank switches so I suppose *someone* made them *somewhere* Les From ekman at lysator.liu.se Mon May 5 03:47:34 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199705050702.AAA11529@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Please, Sam. Would you stop using the title "yo" for all your messages? It makes life very difficult for those of us who get the digest version and only read some selected messages. Put something nice and descriptive instead. On a similar note, when someone replies to a digest, don't use the name of the digest as the subject. /Fredrik From pcoad at crl.com Mon May 5 04:08:54 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: weekend acquisitions 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hats off to Sam Ismail. I think that he had the best published weekend so far. I hit 3 places this weekend and I picked up: Commodore VIC-20 (original box without packing foam) 1541 floppy disk drive (box, manual, power cord) 1530 datassette unit (box) VIC-20 Paddle (VIC-1312 really two paddles on one plug) Cartridge Software: The Sky is Falling (with box) Seawolf (with box and instructions) Road Race The Count Voodoo Castle Videomania (Creative Software) * 4 cassette tapes of possibly boot-leg VIC software. Superexpander with 3K Ram cartridge ** 8K RAM Cartridge VIC-1541 Single Drive Floppy Disk User's Manual Joystick box (empty :-() PixelPaint (copyright 1987) Inside The Amiga (book, copyright 1986) Floppy disk holder (don't know the manufacture date, but likely not classic) Lime snow cone (thankfully not classic) *** It was a pretty good weekend. The VIC came with the original receipt ($303 for the VIC, Paddles, Joystick, Seawolf, and The sky... carts.), and a user's manual. The manual had barely any technical information in it on the specs for the machine. This is no great surprise since the word "friendly" is plastered every where on the box. From the List, it appears that the VIC-1541 is nearly equal to the VIC-20 in processing power, but has 3K less memory. It also seems very odd that the cassette unit has no power cord or supply. It must have leeched power from the host machine through the data port. (I never had a Commodore machine during their heyday, I had a Sinclair ZX81 and later an Atari 800, so all of this is new to me.) * Anyone know what this is? It came loose in the box with the VIC. ** This does not look any different from the 8K cartridge. I'm not sure what the "Superexpander" part really means. It is not the expander which allows multiple carts to be plugged in at the same time. *** It was hot at the flea market. Total: $12 (including the snow cone). --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at saskatoon.com Mon May 5 08:35:15 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: weekend acquisitions 2 Message-ID: <199705051332.HAA12945@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Superexpander with 3K Ram cartridge ** > > ** This does not look any different from the 8K cartridge. I'm not > sure what the "Superexpander" part really means. It is not the expander > which allows multiple carts to be plugged in at the same time. This is a 3k ram expansion (obviously) plus a ROM with additional BASIC commands to make graphics and sound a bit easier. It also gives the ability to map commands to the function keys. I probably have the manual in a box downstairs. If you really want a photocopy I could get one to you. ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From dastar at crl.com Mon May 5 10:28:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Fredrik Ekman wrote: > Please, Sam. Would you stop using the title "yo" for all your messages? It > makes life very difficult for those of us who get the digest version and > only read some selected messages. Put something nice and descriptive > instead. Heh heh heh. Ok. (sorry) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 5 10:32:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: weekend acquisitions 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Commodore VIC-20 (original box without packing foam) > 1541 floppy disk drive (box, manual, power cord) > 1530 datassette unit (box) > VIC-20 Paddle (VIC-1312 really two paddles on one plug) > Cartridge Software: > The Sky is Falling (with box) > Seawolf (with box and instructions) > Road Race > The Count > Voodoo Castle > Videomania (Creative Software) * > 4 cassette tapes of possibly boot-leg VIC software. > Superexpander with 3K Ram cartridge ** > 8K RAM Cartridge > VIC-1541 Single Drive Floppy Disk User's Manual > Joystick box (empty :-() I could've had two complete VIC systems with games, datasettes and the whole works but the guy selling wanted $25 each system (he was selling them as "video games") so I blew him off. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon May 5 12:37:13 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul, + collection list & wanted list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204BFAFFE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> OK, here's what I came up with this weekend: - Atari 800 in *perfect* condition with AC adapter and RF modulator (the latter two in their original boxes), with a full complement of RAM & ROM cards installed, and the original BASIC cartridge. Got this on my first stop! After that it was all gravy. - Three (3) Mattel Aquarius machines (these are quite rare, at least around here--got 3 in one place!! Weird!) with captive power supplies - Timex-Sinclair ZX1000 with RAM expansion pack - Spectravideo SV-328 in original color display box, with data cassette drive, also in original box (I've never actually seen one of these "in the flesh" before) - TI 99/4A original black/silver version, mint, in original color display box, with PS, RF modulator, manuals, etc. replacing my existing TI 99/4A that was all banged up - TI 99/4A original black/silver version with 2 perfect joysticks, voice synthesizer, PS, RF modulator (didn't need the machine itself, obviously, but the whole box worth was only $6) - TI 99/4A *expansion bay* (another rare piece) with flex cable card, RS232 card, 32K RAM card, and disk controller card, with one 5 1/4" floppy drive. Geez, this sucker weighs as much as an S100 bus machine! - TRS-80 Color Computer 1 in mint condition, replacing my existing CoCo1 that had significant wear - Rare Donkey Kong and Moon Patrol Atarisoft carts for the TI 99/4A - Non computer related: Raiders of the Lost Ark on RCA Selectavision CED Videodisc, mint Nothing like another thrift store weekend in the obscure corners of the Seattle/Tacoma/Everett metroplex! Kai ------- Current collection ------- ("for trade" items are, of course, available for trade!) (Want List follows) Computers Altair 8800 with original Altair boards Altair 8800b with original Altair boards, dual 8" drives Altair 8800b (under restoration) Apple II+ with two floppy drives, monitor arch, MS Softcard Apple Macintosh 128 with manuals, carrying case, System 1 Apple Macintosh 512K in original box (for trade) Apple Macintosh 512K (for trade, needs floppy drive) Apple Macintosh Plus (for trade) Atari 800 Atari 800XL with 1010 tape drive and 1050 floppy drive (for trade) Atari 1200XL (for trade) Coleco ADAM with manuals, printer Coleco ADAM Upgrade for Colecovision ("exp unit 3") Commodore PET 2001, original 'chiclet' keyboard version Commodore PET 2001, full size 'graphics' keyboard (for trade) Commodore VIC-20 (original version) in original box Commodore VIC-20 (later version) in original box (for trade) Commodore 64 in original box with 1541 drive in original box Commodore 64 in original box (for trade) Commodore 64 in original box (for trade) Commodore 128 in original box (for trade) Compaq Compaq Cromemco System 3 (rack mount version) with dual 8" IMSAI 8080 with IMSAI CPU, 64K SRAM, CompuPro dual 8" Ithaca InterSystems DPS-1 Kaypro 10 with internal 10MB HD, CP/M, apps Kaypro II Kaypro II (for trade) Mattel Aquarius Mattel Aquarius (for trade) Mattel Aquarius (for trade) Osborne 1 Spectravideo SV-328 Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 w/floppy drive, printer, manuals, case Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 (for trade) Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 (under restoration, for trade) Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer I with floppy drive Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer I (for trade) Tandy TRS-80 Model I with exp interface, 2 floppy drives Tandy TRS-80 Model III with 2 floppy drives Texas Instruments 99/4A in original box, with expansion bay Texas Instruments 99/4A (for trade) Texas Instruments 99/4A (for trade) Timex Sinclair ZX1000 with 4K RAM Expansion Timex Sinclair ZX1000 (for trade) Game Systems Atari 2600 w/2 joysticks, 2 paddles, original manual Atari 5200 w/2 controllers, PS Atari 5200 w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Atari 5200 w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Atari Super Pong Coleco Telstar Classic in original box Coleco Telstar Colortron in original box Colecovision w/2 controllers, PS Colecovision w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Colecovision w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Fairchild Channel F in original box GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex with Multicart GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex (for trade) Mattel Intellivision with Intellivoice module Mattel Intellivision II with Intellivoice module Mattel Intellivision (for trade) Milton-Bradley Microvision Nintendo NES Magnavox Odyssey2 in original box with Multicart Magnavox Odyssey2 in original box (for trade) Magnavox Odyssey2 in original box (for trade) Radio Shack Color TV Scoreboard in original box ------- Want List ------- Apple I Apple II Apple /// Apple Lisa Commodore Amiga 1000 in original box Compucolor II or 8051 Exidy Sorcerer IBM 5100 Portable KIM-1 Processor Tech SOL RCA COSMAC (ELF/VIP) The following in original boxes only: Atari 7800 Colecovision Emerson Arcadia 2001 Magnavox Odyssey (not Odyssey2) Mattel Intellivision RCA Studio II Sega Master System From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Mon May 5 09:35:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Trade Sun for Atari ST? Message-ID: I do not have anything to trade, but are you willing to sell? Mike ---------- From: Paul E Coad To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Trade Sun for Atari ST? Date: Friday, May 02, 1997 9:25PM Someone in LA "Miscellaneous Lists" wanted to trade a Sun 3 for my Atari ST. I have sent a few emails, but have received no response. If you are still interested, contact me via email. If anyone else (in Northern/Central) California would like to trade old Sun/Unix/interesting machines/equipment/software for an Atari ST, let me know. I would prefer not to ship this stuff since it is pretty heavy and fills several cubic feet. --pec ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Here is the list of stuff: 1 Atari 1040STF 3 SH204 Harddisks 1 SF314 Floppy drive 1 SF854 Floppy drive 1 SC1224 Monitor (color) 2 STM1 Mouse 1 Marconi RB2 Trackball 1 Standard Atari joystick There are also a bunch of cables for connecting everything togther, 10 or so magazines, a BASIC manual, 10 or so floppy disks, and what I believe are schematics for the monitor. From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Mon May 5 17:20:45 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: CGL M5 tape Message-ID: <862867295.0625203.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Hi all... I picked up a CGL M5 and original rubber-keyed 48K Spectrum (complete with V23 modem!) a couple months back for a fiver. The M5 is in very good condition and complete with three cartridges and numerous original manuals all in perfect condition. It also came with a tape which i had a little play with today but i can't get anything but the first program (a screen colour test) to load :-( Looking at the tape it seems like its been through a dodgy tape deck at some stage as the tape itself has a couple of deep grooves in it. So, has anyone got a good tape they could copy for me? For information it's a grey cassette housing with a purple, green and white striped label marked "GAME" at the top and "Baseball, ZAC BANIC" at the bottom on both sides. I'm located in the UK and would happily send you a cheque to cover the cost of a blank tape and postage. TIA...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From josh at netins.net Mon May 5 17:17:05 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted Message-ID: <199705052216.RAA32228@insosf1.netins.net> I am looking for a 3.5 Disk & the odd DIN-5 modem or printer (Imagewriter I) cable for my newly aquired IIC. Would be willing to set up a trade...have an old tandy Portable Disk Drive 2. If anybody has those, or knows a place on the net' that doesn't charge +$50 for an old drive, please let me know! If there is a better place to post this, please let me know! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon May 5 18:34:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted In-Reply-To: <199705052216.RAA32228@insosf1.netins.net> from "Josh M. Nutzman" at May 5, 97 05:17:05 pm Message-ID: <9705052234.AA29344@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970505/e84733fc/attachment.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon May 5 17:49:52 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted In-Reply-To: <199705052216.RAA32228@insosf1.netins.net> from "Josh M. Nutzman" at May 5, 97 05:17:05 pm Message-ID: <199705052249.QAA18936@calico.litterbox.com> I think the DIN-5 cables for your modem and printer are the same ones still used for the Mac. As for the floppy drive, I'd try looking at comp.sys.apple2.marketplace. That failing, let me know and I'll dredge up the Altech address (it's not www.alltech.com) - they sell refurbished a2 equipment -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon May 5 18:15:26 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: The List! (MORE additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C6DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> From josh at netins.net Mon May 5 19:49:28 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted Message-ID: <199705060049.TAA25432@ins1.netins.net> >I think the DIN-5 cables for your modem and printer are the same ones still >used for the Mac. As for the floppy drive, I'd try looking at >comp.sys.apple2.marketplace. > >That failing, let me know and I'll dredge up the Altech address (it's not >www.alltech.com) - they sell refurbished a2 equipment Well, I have a mac and it uses a ? Mini-DIN 8? Thanks for the suggestion of Altech. I'll look them up! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon May 5 18:42:41 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C712@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, Due to the shocking absence of a computer collecting newsgroup (alt.folklore.computers is used a bit, but doesn't really apply), I'm submitting an RFD for rec.collecting.computers.classic. If anyone would like to be listed as a co-proponent, let me know. This may entail some work in assisting/monitoring the RFD process. The RFD will be cross-posted to classiccmp when complete. thanks Kai From danjo at xnet.com Mon May 5 22:20:11 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C712@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > Due to the shocking absence of a computer collecting newsgroup > (alt.folklore.computers is used a bit, but doesn't really apply), I'm > submitting an RFD for rec.collecting.computers.classic. If anyone would > like to be listed as a co-proponent, let me know. This may entail some > work in assisting/monitoring the RFD process. > > The RFD will be cross-posted to classiccmp when complete. > > thanks > > Kai Kai, I don't really mean to slow you down here but aren't there enough newsproups? cpm has one apple has one macintosh has one. I mean that's why I joined the mailing list! I really don't want another newsgroup to get spammed from, the obtuse oldies we can cover here would never warrent a group but certainly could fill an archive or a FAQ in this group. As machines get more rare, their sales value goes up. BUT WE DON'T WANT TO SELL! I am afraid we will be swamped with offers of CASH (such a hard thing to say NO to 8-) by clueless yuppie-puppies who have NO IDEA how to keep the machines running and won't want to so LOOK clueless and will never visit again after getting their prize. Then after the *fad* dies down, they will just chuck them in the trash and they will be gone forever. That and all the Spam that will fly thru just makes me say NO! Leave it in a mailing list. Advertise the list - but please - no more newsgroups. Bill! How many people on the list now? They maybe only represent 10% of the people who love these clunkers but at least we are all family! BC From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 6 00:10:51 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:21 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: from "Brett" at May 5, 97 10:20:11 pm Message-ID: <9705060410.AA27827@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1735 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970505/999947fe/attachment.ksh From idavis at comland.com Mon May 5 23:20:04 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Weekend Finds Message-ID: <199705060441.XAA12523@ds9.comland.com> I went on a little shopping spree this weekend, and actually managed to find some stuff this weekend. It seems every garage sale in the north Austin area is nothing but junk, but I finally managed to find a little place with some of everything. I asked the guy if they had any atari stuff, joysticks or games, and he told me to follow him to the back. He had a box full of joysticks, and other assorted junk. I picked up the box and some other carts for my 2600 for $40. When I got home, I dug every thing out, and this is what I found. 1) Odessey2 with joysticks attached. But no power supply. Anyone know the voltage and polarity for this old thing? Of course no cartridges either, but maybe next time. 2) Mattel Aquarius with box, manual, and cassette cables and software. 3) About 20 atari 2600 carts, most of them were ones I had been looking for like air/sea battle. I don't really want to collect rare carts, just the ones I had when I was a kid. 4) Coleco Gemini Video Game System. It plays atari 2600 cartridges, and it turns on, but the screen stays black. No clue, and I don't really have the electronic equipment or knowledge to fix it. I might let my dad check it out. He's a radar technician with a lot of equipment. Maybe I should get him to teach me. 5) An 8-track tape - Spotlight the greatest hits of Gene Pitney, Del Shannon, and Tommy Roe. I'm debating whether or not to dig out the 8-track player. 6) Assorted pile of power supplies. They look like they are for assorted answering machines. 7) An Atari 1010 cassette recorder. 8) A piece of telephone testing equipment I think. Has a switch (tone, off, pulse), a telephone plug, and two wires with alligator clips. I think it's for tracing telephone wires. 9) A pile of Atari joysticks, a coleco joystick, and a couple of various cartridges for assorted systems, none of which I own. Maybe that's the incentive I need. "I've got a cartridge honey, I could really use this old obsolete computer to make sure it works. You don't want to see this cartridge go to waste do you dear??" All in all it was a decent haul for me. This place is only open for 6 hours on the first saturday of the month, so I was lucky to even get in the place. I saw a ti-99/4a, but already spending $40 was pushing it for me. Maybe next month I will get to the back again and dig for more treasure. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 5 23:52:38 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <9705060410.AA27827@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? Maybe they could have a focus on one specific machine per month (or whatever) with maybe some tech specs, basic "one-liners", and the sort for those of us who don't have manuals/want to "learn" more, etc. Or maybe some "getting started" info. You'd be really surprised how some people take forever figuring out how to do the "simple things." (take for example, the number of posts one sees in comp.sys.cbm about how to get a directory on a C64) Each of us has his/her strongpoints. One person might be an apple person or maybe a commie guy, etc. I mean I have an old TRS-80 Model 1 that I really don't know what to do with! Why? I picked it out of the trash and consequently, have no manuals! Just an idea... and it really wouldn't take that much effort! Les From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Tue May 6 00:15:16 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Weekend Finds Message-ID: <01IIJ2QZ3TRC8Y6VVC@AC.GRIN.EDU> > 1) Odessey2 with joysticks attached. But no power supply. Anyone know the > voltage and polarity for this old thing? Of course no cartridges either, > but maybe next time. There's an Odyssey^2 FAQ at http://www.zoomnet.net/~kcassidy/o2faq.html and a old-videogame-power-supply list at http://www.clark.net/pub/vgr/lists/l_power.html One of these ought to have it. HTH, -- Ben Coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley/classic for my classic game page! From LDICKEY at west.pima.edu Mon May 5 17:35:27 1997 From: LDICKEY at west.pima.edu (Loren Dickey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted In-Reply-To: <199705060049.TAA25432@ins1.netins.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Josh M. Nutzman wrote: > >I think the DIN-5 cables for your modem and printer are the same ones still > >used for the Mac. As for the floppy drive, I'd try looking at > >comp.sys.apple2.marketplace. > > I'm not sure, but a 3.5" floppy may not work on an earlier //c. You may be able to use the Unidisk (400k as oppose to the 800k), but I have heard that many of the 3.5 floppy drives couldn't be used on a //c due to the fact that it doesn't contain the firmware to access these drives. You might want to post a message on comp.sys.apple2 to confirm this, though. Of course, if it's a //c+, then you should be able to use these drives with no problem. > >That failing, let me know and I'll dredge up the Altech address (it's not > >www.alltech.com) - they sell refurbished a2 equipment > Well, I have a mac and it uses a ? Mini-DIN 8? Thanks for the suggestion > of Altech. I'll look them up! > Alltech Electronics Co. has changed its name to Computer Circulation Center. Despite that, it doesn't look like a whole lot has changed. Computer Circulation Center dba: Alltech Electronics Co. 2618 Temple Heights Oceanside, CA 92056 Phone #: 760-724-2404 http://www.allelec.com --- ####### "Hey...how'd I get in here?" | 0 0 | Loren Dickey ( ^ ) ldickey@west.cscwc.pima.edu \ ^ / ldickey@aztec.asu.edu From starling at umr.edu Tue May 6 01:19:36 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: PCB Corrosion? Message-ID: <199705060619.BAA11277@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Last weekend I aquired an Apple Lisa 2/5 (finally!!), however the NiCad batteries that backed up the system clock have corroded and leaked all over the IO board and the backplane/motherboard (system uses a nifty CPU-on-card design like the OLD computers). Does anyone have any magic solutions to removing the green gunk from the printed circuit boards and components? I'm wanting to remove the stuff and preserve the system from further corrosion. (and yes, I am taking out those damn things) The green gunk has messed up one of the card slots so the IO card doesn't go. I plan to clean that out using one of those Nintendo cartridge slot cleaners (little card/pad thingy that you put stuff on and insert into slot). That'll get her running again for a while... but I really need all the gunk off and the corrosion STOPPED. any ideas that help save my Lisa would be greatly appreciated! chris starling From starling at umr.edu Tue May 6 01:43:09 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Battery Leakage... Solution? Message-ID: <199705060643.BAA12365@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Well... after a bit of searching, I've found a solution on www.flippers.com, a pinball homepage. The guy there says to remove all corrosion and then neutralize the alkali with a 50/50 solution of white vinegar and distilled water, scrub with toothbrush, rinse in distilled water, and then dry with a hairbrush. This sound feasible or is it a bad idea? thanks! From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 01:47:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C712@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > Due to the shocking absence of a computer collecting newsgroup > (alt.folklore.computers is used a bit, but doesn't really apply), I'm > submitting an RFD for rec.collecting.computers.classic. If anyone would > like to be listed as a co-proponent, let me know. This may entail some > work in assisting/monitoring the RFD process. > > The RFD will be cross-posted to classiccmp when complete. > Kount me in Kai. I'll do whatever I can to help. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 01:54:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Brett wrote: > That and all the Spam that will fly thru just makes me say NO! > Leave it in a mailing list. Advertise the list - but please - no > more newsgroups. I almost agree with you but I would like to see a newsgroup. It will just allow us to reach a broader group. I think Bill Whitson did a good job of putting this discussion group together, with his simple yet effective qualification process (who are you and why should you be allowed to be in this discussion group). I think thus far we have had some really good discussions on some good stuff. The same can't be said about a newsgroup because off-topic messages and superfluous cross-posting of drivel are inevitable. But... > > Bill! How many people on the list now? They maybe only represent > 10% of the people who love these clunkers but at least we are all > family! Keeping it to ourselves is counter productive. The point is to share the knowledge to get more people interested to preserve more computers. The point is we do this because we have passion for the systems. Every hobby is going to be prostituted some time or another. As long as your passion remains, its all good. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 02:04:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? > Maybe they could have a focus on one specific machine per month (or > whatever) with maybe some tech specs, basic "one-liners", and the sort for > those of us who don't have manuals/want to "learn" more, etc. Or maybe > some "getting started" info. You'd be really surprised how some people > take forever figuring out how to do the "simple things." (take for > example, the number of posts one sees in comp.sys.cbm about how to get a > directory on a C64) Each of us has his/her strongpoints. One person > might be an apple person or maybe a commie guy, etc. I mean I have an old > TRS-80 Model 1 that I really don't know what to do with! Why? I > picked it out of the trash and consequently, have no manuals! Actually, this is a great idea and is something I have been contemplating. I want to start a classic collector journal and have it coincide with the C4 show but I don't think I will have time for it. I'm hoping that maybe by the end of the year I can get something going. But I would need support from others, especially to write articles. Perhaps we can make it a group effort? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 02:01:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Weekend Finds In-Reply-To: <199705060441.XAA12523@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > 1) Odessey2 with joysticks attached. But no power supply. Anyone know the > voltage and polarity for this old thing? Of course no cartridges either, > but maybe next time. I think it uses a standard 9V DC (don't know about polarity, probably standard) but I can't back this up. I have a few but they're all tucked away. Hopefully someone else can jump in here. > 2) Mattel Aquarius with box, manual, and cassette cables and software. Awesome. > 4) Coleco Gemini Video Game System. It plays atari 2600 cartridges, and it > turns on, but the screen stays black. No clue, and I don't really have the > electronic equipment or knowledge to fix it. I might let my dad check it > out. He's a radar technician with a lot of equipment. Maybe I should get > him to teach me. I think the contacts where the carthridge plugs into is probably dirty. I had the same problem with some carts I bought from a swap meet. At first they didn't work and I thought I was screwed, but after inserting them over and over, the build-up of crud (oxidation) on the pins eventually eroded and the carthridge started to work. You probably need to try and clean the carthridge slot somehow. > 5) An 8-track tape - Spotlight the greatest hits of Gene Pitney, Del > Shannon, and Tommy Roe. I'm debating whether or not to dig out the 8-track > player. Random. > 8) A piece of telephone testing equipment I think. Has a switch (tone, off, > pulse), a telephone plug, and two wires with alligator clips. I think it's > for tracing telephone wires. That's a toner. You also need the wand (or in lineman speak, the banana) which is an inductive pickup device with a speaker that you use to pinpoint which pair you are tracing. You put the toner on one end (ie. plug the mod plug into the jack or clip on the alligator clips) and then go to your punchdown blocks and run the wand over the terminals until you find your pair. Very useful. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue May 6 07:30:05 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Australian computers... Message-ID: <199705061230.NAA18918@cream.motiv.co.uk> Hi, In mid June I will be travelling to Australia and while I am there it would be nice to pick up some classic computers. So my question is, are there any home computers that were mainly found in Australia? I know of the System-80, which I know as a Video Genie (a TRS-80 clone), and I think the Microbee also originates from Australia. All information will be gratefully recieved. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ PS. I may be able to squeeze in some small UK items to trade so let me know if you are interested and are in Brisbane or Sydney. From classicjr at juno.com Tue May 6 10:45:05 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 39 References: <199705010702.AAA19470@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970506.074650.8263.0.classicjr@juno.com> Is this list still active? I haven't received any digests for several days. Please continue my subscription. From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 09:02:33 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c Message-ID: <199705061359.HAA11333@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? > > Just an idea... and it really wouldn't take that much effort! I like this idea. Maybe it could be a group collaborative effort. (Another mailling list?) Besides articles relating to collecting, I think it would be really cool to try to obtain the rights to reprint some classic magazine articles that some of us never got to see, or were to shortsighted at the time to keep. (Construction type articles. Maybe some reviews.) (Are we talking about 'ink and paper' here or electronic? I was thinking 'ink and paper', but [html,pdf,whatever] wouldn't be bad either.) > Les ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 6 10:42:55 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? Or better yet, why not just start writing FOR te Computer Journal! > Just an idea... and it really wouldn't take that much effort! Even less if you don't have to do the publishing! (I've been there) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 6 13:09:11 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c In-Reply-To: <199705061359.HAA11333@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > I like this idea. Maybe it could be a group collaborative effort. > (Another mailling list?) Besides articles relating to collecting, I > think it would be really cool to try to obtain the rights to reprint > some classic magazine articles that some of us never got to see, or > were to shortsighted at the time to keep. (Construction type articles. > Maybe some reviews.) We could *summarize* old articles and as long as it's documented there would/should be no problems. I have a stack of old Compute! mags (Mar 84-Jun 86) and another stack of 99'er and HCN from around the same time period. Not to mention the piles of old BASIC books, users manuals, FAQ's, and net mags that I have collected over the years. > > (Are we talking about 'ink and paper' here or electronic? I was > thinking 'ink and paper', but [html,pdf,whatever] wouldn't be bad either.) > Well, HTML (etc.) would definitely be "easier" but printed copies would be "neater" There are drawbacks to both (HTML allows easier/cheaper use of color) but if we start with HTML it really wouldn't be too much trouble to generate printed copies of the mag from it. PLus HTML is "free" wheras printed copies would need a modest fee, means for collecting this, places to print, etc. If someone wants to start a "printed copy" after we get the netside of things going than I'm in, but I think we should start with HTML or whatever. Either way, I'm in! Suggestions? Les From idavis at comland.com Tue May 6 14:32:07 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970506193207.008f9274@mail.comland.com > >generate printed copies of the mag from it. PLus HTML is "free" wheras >printed copies would need a modest fee, means for collecting this, places >to print, etc. I agree with Les, start with an electronic form, then maybe move to print. I am on a limited computer budget to begin with, I would hate to reduce it any further, I might miss that big find I have been looking for. I would like to see some program listings for various machines and various languages included. I learned more from magazine program listings than I did from anywhere else. I still use program listings to divine tips and tricks. Besides, it is interesting to see program listings for other machines, and see if anything applies to a machine I am using. I am sure all of us have some programs for our machines that we could clean up and submit for inclusion, and no worries about copyright violations if we wrote them, not to mention just having some valuable information available for the taking. Plus as we add to our collections, finding program listings will give us a place to start with a new unknown machine. I actually tell people that we used to get programs in magazines, and typed them in sometimes for days at a time, and they laugh and me and think I am pulling their leg. Just be sure and include program listings. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 14:55:46 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > On 29-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >I'll second his nomination, and with great trepidation add Jay Miner to > >the list. :) > > I think Jay Miner is definately worthy of inclusion since he did much of > the design of the Atari 8bit machines, such as the 400/800, and he is > generally considered the father of the Amiga line. Jay is certainly important, but I'd hesitate at saying he was as influential as someone like Gary Kildall, Steve Wozniak, or Chuck Peddle. As much as I love all of the things Jay Miner gave us, there aren't that many people who were actually aware of his machines, let alone the man himself. Perhaps if he had worked somewhere without Stealth Marketing... > > Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to nominate Jack Tremiel? Uh... not me! But what about Sir Clive Sinclair, and that Tandy guy. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 15:03:15 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <970429193201_-467416177@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 KFergason@aol.com wrote: > someone can correct me if necessary, but weren't the first PDP's pretty > "important" in that respect? Suddenly, universities could have their own > systems. or maybe I am dreaming, mixing stories from various books. > > Kelly Actually, the professor for the computer organization & assembly language course I took this semester continually used the PDP-11 as an example. It's interesting that, although we were learning 8086 assembly, the code during the lecture was usually for the PDP-11, and we studied various aspects of the PDP-11's hardware. The professor thought that the PDP-11 was the perfect system to learn this kind of thing on... And before you ask, actually the professor in question is only a young man of 32 years in age. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 15:09:26 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970429205235.007c98d0@postman> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > fyi, on p. 272 of November '79 Byte: a company called AB Computers offered > a device called "BETSI", described as a "PET to S-100 Interface & > Motherboard". cost was $119. While i'm on that page, the PET was $795 for > the entry level system (8K, small keybd, cassette) and on the high end: > $1,295 for 32K system with "business" keyboard. A 2040 dual diskette drive > (343,000 bytes total) would set you back another $1,295. Thanks for the info! I guess it was a fairly common type of device, then. I wonder if there are also IBM-PC to S100 interfaces? (Actually, something like that would be a cool addition to my Amiga 1200. :) ) BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ Even my collection of COMPUTE! and COMPUTE!'s Gazette magazines is borrowed. (I'm hoping the owner forgets about them. ;) ) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From spc at armigeron.com Tue May 6 15:28:50 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at May 6, 97 04:09:26 pm Message-ID: <199705062028.QAA24968@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Doug Spence once stated: > > BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on > Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I > don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then > my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ Maybe. But be wary of getting a complete collection though. While I haven't read a Byte magazine in several years, (since the early 90s), those that I have seen I tend to group into three catagories: 1. Hobby Era (start of publication to late 83/early 84) Many articles about specific machines, hardware and software wise. Most program listings are in assembly or BASIC, although you will find the occasional Lisp, Forth or (Tiny)-C listing. The peak is ~79/80. 2. Journal Era (early 84 to late 87/early 88) More scholarly type articles (more like papers), less hardware and hobbiest oriented articles abound. More theory related articles. The peak is ~85/86. 3. PC Rag Era (early 88 through the 90s) This actually started with the introduction of the IBM PS/2 line in late 87, although the real shift wasn't noticible until sometime in 88. The emphasis shifted more towards product reviews, mostly PCs and PC related hardware/software. I stopped reading Byte in early to mid 90 and haven't really looked at it since, so it might have shifted once again. My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library at the university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read 8-). The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, then 1985 then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. -spc (It started sliding when Robert Tinney stopped doing magazine covers, (~87) then it nose dived once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing hardware articles, (~88 or 89) although there are some that think it started way back in '77 when Pournelle started his column) From gram at cnct.com Tue May 6 15:39:47 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Magazines in microform In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on > Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I > don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then > my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ I do remember ads in the back of Byte, Kilobaud and other magazines saying that those publications were available in Microform. The ads were from, IIRC, a company called University Microfilms in [break to search the web] Ann Arbor, MI -- no web site indicated. The library in Montclair, NJ has a large number of CDs of magazines, but I haven't spent enough time there to investigate whether they might have old computer magazines. The CDs are apparently from that same company. (I live in a different county and out-of-town library cards cost dearly around here for some reason). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 15:40:36 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > ...But the only PET books this library has are things like > > collections of type-in programs for the PET, and books on using the PET in > > an educational environment. Nothing good and technical. > > The technical ones are some of the hardest to locate, some of mine > came from a Commodore Group weeding out their library, I bought them via > mail. The most PET books I've come across are old college and school > textbooks (anyone see "Hands-On BASIC with the Commodore PET?" yuk.) Let's see, I printed out some stuff from the univerity's catalogue... (where'd I put that?) Ah! There was a book entitled "Waterloo 6809 Assembler : tutorial and reference manual", which has on the cover a SuperPet, and listed in the SUBJECT is : Assembler language PET (Computer) --Programming Commodore Superpet computers. That one looks fairly technical, but alas I have no SuperPet. :) The only other mentions of the PET in the printout I've got here, are "Mostly BASIC : applications for your PET" and "Microcomputers in science teaching : especially the PET in physics". Haven't seen "Hand-on BASIC...", thankfully. ;) > Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC > > > (re: VIC-20) I'd put at least 32K in it, with a memory > > protection toggle on the RAM so that it could run images of cartridges > > from disk. > > There is a file I think on funet.fi's FTP that describes and internal > mod that does just that. :) Cool! I'll have to look for that. BTW, a friend of mine in London, Ont., has just reported that he's found a 16K RAM cart for the VIC and he's mailing it to me. Pretty sad when other people are finding more stuff for my collection than I am. :) > > I intend to write the software on my own, but fast serial routines might > > come in handy. I want to at least get 2400bps out of the thing. > > Most of the BASIC boards I have is up to 1200 baud, I know for 2400 you > probably have to tweak the timing registers, cause the computer does not > provide decent numbers. Well, I'll see what I can do. I'm not scared of eventually writing the whole thing in assembly, or even with a monitor (I typed in the monitor that was in the COMPUTE!'s First Book of VIC, and I could use the PET for that purpose as well). > > I don't think that'll be a problem for the VIC-20, as it's faster at I/O than the > > 64. I'll probably have to put in a lot of RAM, though, to act as buffers > > for the slow disk drives. :) > > There have been a bunch of articles for adding 256k to 1 meg internally > to the 64 and bank-switching, not sure if that's possible on the VIC > though, they may be adaptable. I don't think I'll need quite that much. A friend of mine (who has since moved to Toronto and I've lost track of him) expanded his VIC-20 up to 48K by himself. And as an interesting asside, he also interfaced a UART to his VIC so it could go up to 9600bps, and he was working on interfacing a CGA card to the VIC as well, before he was hired by IBM and suddenly didn't have any time for his projects anymore. > > Do you mean the music teacher's programs, or the Cursor tapes? :) > > YES! YES! OK, how do you want 'em? :) BTW, one program from Cursor #2 was damaged and won't load anymore. I've been wanting to fix that for a while, but I loaned my Amiga 1000's sampler to someone a few years back and he loaned it to someone... who moved to Ontario. The damage is just in the header, so it shouldn't be hard to fix once I can get it sampled and stored on disk. > Mine are also from High School and I can say I have programs from 13 to > into the 20s I think. No originals here either *sniff* Say... howsabout sending copies of those to me? :) > > Ouranos! is an awesome game, BTW. I had the PET print up the listing and I > > intended to port it to the Amiga, but I never got around to it. I don't > > think it'd be the same, though, on anything but another PET with glaring > > white screen. > > Weather War II for the Commodore-64 is a re-write of Ouranos! nifty > little character graphic castles, SID sound, sprites were used to add > some foliage (just for looks) I'll have to see if I can hunt that down. > My 'calculator keyboard' PET has 1.0 too. I have the schematics and > diagnostics for it too... Has been modified with a reset switch has > ability to use a skyles add-on keyboard (you have to load and run a > program first), and of course, expandamem. Cool! The lack of a reset switch bugs me sometimes. > > Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of > > course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to > > this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this > > locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than > > 8K. :) > > I think those are only 8kx1. I did look at my expandamem board and the > chips with the plates on them had (c)Mostek written. Actually, I believe the quote you had in your other post said the 4116 was 16k bits... which would make my board 64K, which is too big without some kind of bank switching scheme, isn't it? > Heck I'll toss in some disks full of other goodies too. But don't hold > your breath I tend to froget doing things (like mailing stuff) for a > spell. Cool! Thanks. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From gram at cnct.com Tue May 6 16:01:35 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: The decline and fall of Byte In-Reply-To: <199705062028.QAA24968@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the > cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library at the > university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read 8-). > The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, then 1985 > then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. > > -spc (It started sliding when Robert Tinney stopped doing magazine covers, > (~87) then it nose dived once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing hardware > articles, (~88 or 89) although there are some that think it started > way back in '77 when Pournelle started his column) Well, most of my older Byte magazines were destroyed by water several moves ago, and I wouldn't mind acquiring most of them again. I had mostly given up on Byte in the mid-eighties, but in recent years I've wound up with a subscription (recently finally expired) due to McGraw-Hill ceasing publication of more useful magazines. Ciarcia's articles were always excellent (and I know that most of them were released in book form awhile back), and his current magazine, "Circuit Cellar Ink" is pretty good, especially if you're a serious hardware hacker as I no longer am. Actually, nowadays, Pournelle's column is about the only thing I read in the magazine, and now that it's available on the web (with extra text), I really don't care to subscribe. Opinions vary concerning Jerry Pournelle. I've known him for over twenty years due to our mutual interest in science fiction and membership in the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society (I'm still a member despite living in New Jersey -- Death Shall Not Release You!). Over the years we've had a lot of conversations and arguments, about politics (he's in favor of having a government, I'm opposed), about space development (we're both in favor) and computers (I was a Shacker, and while I was living elsewhere on the continent he had bad experiences with a very early TRS-80 and the company rather hurt themselves by being uncooperative and ignorant of the power of the press -- which is why after I showed him one of the first Model 100s, he went out and got a NEC equivalent). He's a man of strong opinions who's always trying to learn something new and so am I. Really, he should be a member of this mailing list -- he's experienced directly more of the history of computers than most of us who've worked and played with them. That plus having the clout to get information from the movers and shakers. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 6 16:21:03 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> About 9 years ago when I was in our end user support organization, I had occasion to speak to Jerry. He was threatening to give QuickBasic a scathing review because he couldn't get it to compile Mrs. Pournelle's Reading Program (what else?) under Windows 386. He called up our QuickBasic group manager and just about carved him a new orifice. I, as the Windows support lead, was asked to call him on this very urgent, sky-is-falling problem and help him out, since as you may have noticed from years of columns, he never, ever calls support himself. The conversation went something like this: Me: "Hi Mr. Pournelle, this is Kai with Microsoft Product Support..." Jerry: "What the HELL are you DOING calling during my DINNER TIME?!?" Me: "I'm sorry sir, I understood you had a very urgent issue, and I had no way of knowing..." Jerry: "YOU PEOPLE are MORONS! " And things went downhill from there. Later on we finally got to the problem, which as I recall was related to a bizarre SCSI adapter in that silly Cheetah 386 he had, the one into which he would put any piece of hardware any manufacturer ever sent to him for free. Not a great experience. I spoke to him again a few months later on a different issue, and he was no more lucid or logical on that occasion. Kai > ---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 2:01 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: The decline and fall of Byte > > On Tue, 6 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is > the > > cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library > at the > > university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read > 8-). > > The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, > then 1985 > > then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. > > > > -spc (It started sliding when Robert Tinney stopped doing magazine > covers, > > (~87) then it nose dived once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing > hardware > > articles, (~88 or 89) although there are some that think it > started > > way back in '77 when Pournelle started his column) > > Well, most of my older Byte magazines were destroyed by water several > moves ago, and I wouldn't mind acquiring most of them again. I had > mostly > given up on Byte in the mid-eighties, but in recent years I've wound > up > with a subscription (recently finally expired) due to McGraw-Hill > ceasing > publication of more useful magazines. Ciarcia's articles were always > excellent (and I know that most of them were released in book form > awhile > back), and his current magazine, "Circuit Cellar Ink" is pretty good, > especially if you're a serious hardware hacker as I no longer am. > Actually, nowadays, Pournelle's column is about the only thing I read > in > the magazine, and now that it's available on the web (with extra > text), I > really don't care to subscribe. Opinions vary concerning Jerry > Pournelle. > I've known him for over twenty years due to our mutual interest in > science > fiction and membership in the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society (I'm > still a member despite living in New Jersey -- Death Shall Not Release > You!). Over the years we've had a lot of conversations and arguments, > about politics (he's in favor of having a government, I'm opposed), > about > space development (we're both in favor) and computers (I was a > Shacker, > and while I was living elsewhere on the continent he had bad > experiences > with a very early TRS-80 and the company rather hurt themselves by > being > uncooperative and ignorant of the power of the press -- which is why > after > I showed him one of the first Model 100s, he went out and got a NEC > equivalent). He's a man of strong opinions who's always trying to > learn > something new and so am I. Really, he should be a member of this > mailing > list -- he's experienced directly more of the history of computers > than > most of us who've worked and played with them. That plus having the > clout > to get information from the movers and shakers. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 16:31:39 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <9705012132.AA12001@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > If there's room on the list, I'd like to see a couple more > columns added: > > 1. List price at introduction > 2. Some trade rag references from the time of introduction. (Ads > or reviews in _BYTE_, for example.) Unfortunately, I'm running out of column space ;). I may add these in the future but right now I'm really tired of flipping through stacks of magazines. (I'm still staring at the source info. for the potential early PC clone list. Ugh.) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 16:43:04 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bill! How many people on the list now? They maybe only represent > 10% of the people who love these clunkers but at least we are all > family! I think it's still just over 200. Subscribership hasn't increased for a while. I haven't spammed the newsgroups in a while either though. Maybe it's time to fill my inbox with flames again ;). Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 16:52:52 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Keeping it to ourselves is counter productive. The point is to share the > knowledge to get more people interested to preserve more computers. The > point is we do this because we have passion for the systems. Every hobby > is going to be prostituted some time or another. As long as your passion > remains, its all good. Let me clarify, just in case. Anyone with interest can join this list. If you guys wish to spread the word or post about it in appropriate places be my guest. I don't stand one way or the other on the newsgroup idea but I think it's agood idea to take a look at groups like comp.sys.ti where the bulk of the info comes from the mailing list reposts and almost everything else is spam. That is the reason why I decided to go with a mailing list rather than a newsgroup. It seems silly to argue about the group if the process has already been started - if it gets created it will either get used or not. If it passes I'll be one of the people reading it as I'm sure most of you will. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 17:03:16 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c In-Reply-To: <199705061359.HAA11333@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > I like this idea. Maybe it could be a group collaborative effort. > (Another mailling list?) Besides articles relating to collecting, I > think it would be really cool to try to obtain the rights to reprint > some classic magazine articles that some of us never got to see, or > were to shortsighted at the time to keep. (Construction type articles. > Maybe some reviews.) Along the same line but not the same: I've been reasearching the possibility of putting old magazine articles up on the ClassicCmp web site. I'll probably be starting this weekend. I've determined that articles from the following magazines are unlikely to get me in trouble: Softside, Micro, Call APPLE, Creative Computing More may come in the future. The critera for "unlikely to get me in trouble" are 1. Magazine and/or publishing company out of business and unreachable 2. Statements that reproduction is allowed (like Creative Computing!). If you know of other "safe" magazines or are interested in scanning some pages to put up, let me know. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon May 5 07:21:22 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 06-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Jay is certainly important, but I'd hesitate at saying he was as >influential as someone like Gary Kildall, Steve Wozniak, or Chuck Peddle. >As much as I love all of the things Jay Miner gave us, there aren't that >many people who were actually aware of his machines, let alone the man >himself. No, he didn't influence a whole 'generation' of computer hobbyist the way CP/M did and such, but he certainly did some interesting things with the hardware! Unfortunately, another computer great that has since passed away. >> >> Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to nominate Jack Tremiel? >Uh... not me! But what about Sir Clive Sinclair, and that Tandy guy. :) Hmmmmmm...I can't quite think of the name of the head of Tandy that killed off so many of thier good ideas. They had some interesting machines...and sometimes even rather innovative. Too bad they tended to ship with a lot of the interesting stuff crippled. Sir Clive Sinclair on the other hand gave us the Sinclair series, so he couldn't be all bad. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 17:17:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR > ================================================================== > Apple Computer, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Apple II 6502 16K ADOS 3.X MICRO 77 > Apple II+ 6502 48K ADOS 3.X MICRO 81 I *think* (though I'm not sure) that the ][+ is from 1979. Could just be fried braincells on my part. ;) > Apple IIc 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 85 > Apple IIc+ 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 86 > Apple IIe 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 82 > Apple IIgs (ROM 01) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 86 > Apple IIgs (ROM 02) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 87 > Apple IIgs (ROM 03) 65C816 1.25MB GS/OS MICRO 88 > Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 The Apple III is definitely earlier than 1983. I have a booklet entitled "Apple In Depth" from 1981 and it has the Apple III in it. Also, I found a review of the III in the December, 1980 issue of Popular Science (p.113). Actually, the III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? > Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- > 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 I've never heard of the 655. > Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 The Amiga 1000 was available in 1985. > Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 1987. And you're missing the A2000, also from 1987. > PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 I don't know about the various flavours of the PET 2001, but the original model was available in 1977. > Jonos International----------------------------------------------- > C2000 Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2100 Z80A w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2150 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2550 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Escort C2100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Escort C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Jonos also made some portables. Sorry, I don't have the details. You could get them with various processors, though. Almost made-to-order, I think. > Kaypro Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Is it Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems? My II has the NLS logo on it. > Kontron Electronics----------------------------------------------- > PSI 80 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 Humm... a book I got out of the library a couple of years back listed the PS1-80, PS1-98, PS1-908, PS1-980, and PS1-9068. The 9068 was based on the 68000, and came with 256K. It supposedly ran CP/M (I guess it'd be CP/M-68 :) ), KOS, and UNIX. KOS was probably just a variant of UNIX. Release date was listed as 1984. > Ohio Scientific--------------------------------------------------- > MasterKey 220 6502 48K OS-65 MICRO 83 > MasterKey 230 6502 52K OS-65 MICRO 82 > MasterKey 250 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 330 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > MasterKey 350 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 2301 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > OSI-710 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > OSI-720 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > WorkSystem 200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 > WorkSystem 300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 Also the Challenger. > Sanyo Business Systems Corp.-------------------------------------- > MBC-1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > MBC-1100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1150 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1160 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1250 Z80 (x2) 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-2000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-3000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-4050 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 85 > PHC-20 8085 4K ?? ?? 83 PHC-10 ?? 2K ?? Handheld ?? PHC-25 Z80A 16K ?? MICRO ?? I don't know if the above actually made it out the door. They're mentioned in COMPUTE!, March 1983, p.34. > Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- > ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 Also the ZX80, Spectrum, QL, and 2068. > Sord Computers, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > IS-11 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 > M 23 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68 Z80 w/68000 256K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68MX 68000 512K ?? MICRO 87 Also the M343. > Video Technology Computers, Inc.---------------------------------- > Laser 50 Z80 2K ?? PORT. 84 > Laser 128 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 128EX 65C02 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 200 6502 4K ?? ?? 83 > Laser 3000 6502 64K ?? ?? 83 Laser 3000 6502 192K? ?? MICRO ?? Sorry, don't know how to verify the amount of RAM. It might be able to run ProDOS, but I don't have a disk drive to try it out. The ad I have from Computer Direct lists 192K RAM. There are a couple of graphics modes that I can't address with simple PEEK and POKE, so I at least know there's more than 48K. I wish I could find somebody with docs for the thing. > Xerox Corporation------------------------------------------------- > System 744-I Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > System 744-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 16/8 Z80 w/8086 192K ?? MICRO 83 > 820-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Also the plain 820, and the 860. Is the Xerox Star hiding up there under some other name? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Tue May 6 17:18:17 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Magazines in microform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970506181817.00855470@postman> University Microfilm is now "UMI" (www.umi.com). They have tons of serials on Microfilm, e.g. see http://wwwlib.umi.com/sim/menu There's a lot to wade through and it ain't cheap, but they've probably got most popular magazines from the 70's and 80's out there (they have 19,000 periodicals; 7,000 newspapers). Byte and Kilobaud are listed as are many more "oldies" (they have Radio-Electronics going back to 1929!). For some serials they offer individual copy or article copy capability. Their main customers are libraries of course. - glenn At 04:39 PM 5/6/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 6 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > >> BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on >> Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I >> don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then >> my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ > >I do remember ads in the back of Byte, Kilobaud and other magazines saying >that those publications were available in Microform. The ads were from, >IIRC, a company called University Microfilms in [break to search the web] >Ann Arbor, MI -- no web site indicated. The library in Montclair, NJ has >a large number of CDs of magazines, but I haven't spent enough time there >to investigate whether they might have old computer magazines. The CDs >are apparently from that same company. (I live in a different county and >out-of-town library cards cost dearly around here for some reason). >-- >Ward Griffiths >"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within >the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > > > From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue May 6 17:32:00 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 May 1997 18:17:21 EDT." Message-ID: <199705062232.RAA10295@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Doug Spencer asks: >Actually, the III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? I don't remember seeing an Apple III, but there was a glimps of a Cray 1. It wasn't in focus though )-: Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 17:38:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > More may come in the future. The critera for "unlikely to get me in > trouble" are 1. Magazine and/or publishing company out of business and > unreachable 2. Statements that reproduction is allowed (like Creative > Computing!). Computist magazine was very specific to Apple ][s (at least until the last issues where they began contemplating including other computers such as Atari STs and Amigas) but was a great little magazine. It mostly contained recipes for cracking software protection, but almost always had an apple hardware project or other need tidbits. They're gone now. I have about 15 issues, but the total run was maybe 40? That would be a nice magazine to re-produce. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 6 17:48:37 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> In the movie _Sneakers_, Ben Kingsley plays an ex-hacker who is now the financial data processing administrator for the Mob. He has a large complex of systems including a very Cray-like central processor and all sorts of fancy accessories. He's extolling the virtues of mob money to Robert Redford's character, and to illustrate his point he turns on the Cray's terminal... lo and behold, the Cray runs Microsoft Excel! Since we were in a theater about 6 blocks from Microsoft corporate campus, that scene was the biggest laugh of the film. Kai > ---------- > From: Brian L. Stuart[SMTP:stuart@colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 3:32 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: The List! > > Doug Spencer asks: > >Actually, the III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? > > I don't remember seeing an Apple III, but there was a glimps of > a Cray 1. It wasn't in focus though )-: > > Brian L. Stuart > Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN > stuartb@acm.org > http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 6 17:48:57 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DF@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I agree completely Bill. Here are some reasons I can think of off the top of my head for starting the newsgroup: - If we look at The List that has been circulating, only about 1% of those manufacturers have a comp.os.* group associated. - Someone who has a classic computer in their closet doesn't want to join a mailing list just to post a targeted for sale ad. - We don't want posts from commercial vendors of classic systems/software/parts filling up our mailboxes, but I'd like to encourage them to post to the newsgroup. - alt.folklore.computers is for discussions about folklore (did Gary Kildall really refuse to sign that IBM nondisclosure, thus dooming CP/M?) not buy/sell/trade activity. - A mailing list is an inappropriate place to hold an auction - Usenet is automatically archived and searchable via DejaNews Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson[SMTP:bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 2:52 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD > rec.collecting.computers.classic > > > Keeping it to ourselves is counter productive. The point is to > share the > > knowledge to get more people interested to preserve more computers. > The > > point is we do this because we have passion for the systems. Every > hobby > > is going to be prostituted some time or another. As long as your > passion > > remains, its all good. > > Let me clarify, just in case. Anyone with interest can join this > list. > If you guys wish to spread the word or post about it in appropriate > places be my guest. > > I don't stand one way or the other on the newsgroup idea but I think > it's agood idea to take a look at groups like comp.sys.ti where the > bulk of the info comes from the mailing list reposts and almost > everything else is spam. That is the reason why I decided to go with > a > mailing list rather than a newsgroup. It seems silly to argue about > the > group if the process has already been started - if it gets created it > will > either get used or not. If it passes I'll be one of the people > reading > it as I'm sure most of you will. > > Bill > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 6 18:56:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 6, 97 03:48:37 pm Message-ID: <9705062256.AA17039@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970506/9a78eb9b/attachment.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon May 5 08:16:43 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODELCPU RAM OSTYPEYR > ================================================================== > Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- > ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 Actually, I believe the ZX-81 came out in 1981, as shown below. I bought my Timex-Sinclair in late 1982, if I remember correctly. Also, the documentation that was included with the ZX-81 I have has letters from Sinclair Research dated March 10, 1982, as well as a review of the ZX-81 in Englad dated August 1981. Two interesting things about this: 1) the ZX-81 I have was originally delivered in kit form and still has the assembly diagrams and such; 2) The magazine review, taken from "Personal Computer World" and re-published in "Creative Computing", November 1981, states that at the time, the ZX-81 was available in England but not yet in the U.S. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From starling at umr.edu Tue May 6 18:38:54 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705062256.AA17039@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 6, 97 03:56:22 pm Message-ID: <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... chris *ling lisa fanatic From ldickey at west.cscwc.pima.edu Tue May 6 19:03:17 1997 From: ldickey at west.cscwc.pima.edu (ldickey@west.cscwc.pima.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <009B3DC7.DB6B9A00.53@west.cscwc.pima.edu> DATE SENT: 6-MAY-1997 16:59:36 > >I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in >it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the >computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... > I think it may have been an Atari (1200xl?). It's been years since I last saw the movie, so I might be wrong. --- ####### "Hey...how'd I get in here?" | o o | Loren Dickey ( ^ ) ldickey@west.cscwc.pima.edu \ o / ldickey@aztec.asu.edu From visimp at junction.net Tue May 6 20:10:24 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <19970506.171024.61@junction.net> In message <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> you wrote: > About 9 years ago when I was in our end user support organization, I had > occasion to speak to Jerry. He was threatening to give QuickBasic a > scathing review because he couldn't get it to compile Mrs. Pournelle's > Reading Program (what else?) under Windows 386. He called up our > QuickBasic group manager and just about carved him a new orifice. I, as > the Windows support lead, was asked to call him on this very urgent, > sky-is-falling problem and help him out, since as you may have noticed > from years of columns, he never, ever calls support himself. The > conversation went something like this: > > Me: "Hi Mr. Pournelle, this is Kai with Microsoft Product Support..." > Jerry: "What the HELL are you DOING calling during my DINNER TIME?!?" > Me: "I'm sorry sir, I understood you had a very urgent issue, and I had > no way of knowing..." > Jerry: "YOU PEOPLE are MORONS! " > > And things went downhill from there. Later on we finally got to the > problem, which as I recall was related to a bizarre SCSI adapter in that > silly Cheetah 386 he had, the one into which he would put any piece of > hardware any manufacturer ever sent to him for free. > > Not a great experience. I spoke to him again a few months later on a > different issue, and he was no more lucid or logical on that occasion. > > Kai I have read many letters here and I hope this is NOT what we are going to continually hear - Microsoft reps patting themselves on the back because they and the company can NEVER BE WRONG. Let's keep company reps out if they only want to glorify the company (that basically has the computer world in turmoil with poor quality non-innovative software). -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 19:34:41 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) In-Reply-To: <19970506.171024.61@junction.net> Message-ID: Lets please not start a flame thread here. I have contacted the parties involved via private e-mail. I don't believe Kai has said anything unreasonable and I don't want people out gunning for people from the MS domain on this list. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > I have read many letters here and I hope this is NOT what we are going > to continually hear - Microsoft reps patting themselves on the back > because they and the company can NEVER BE WRONG. Let's keep company > reps out if they only want to glorify the company (that basically has > the computer world in turmoil with poor quality non-innovative > software). From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 6 20:44:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) In-Reply-To: <19970506.171024.61@junction.net> from "Lindsay Thachuk" at May 6, 97 05:10:24 pm Message-ID: <9705070044.AA01778@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970506/74360aa7/attachment.ksh From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 20:05:05 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: The List! Message-ID: <199705070102.TAA01292@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 > > The Apple III is definitely earlier than 1983. I have a booklet entitled > "Apple In Depth" from 1981 and it has the Apple III in it. Also, I found > a review of the III in the December, 1980 issue of Popular Science > (p.113). Strictly from my memory but, I'm _positive_ the A/// was released in fall of 1980. It actually beat the IBM PC to market, but had 100% hardware malfunction in the first run, and didn't have the bugs fixed until after the PC was out. (No longer strictly from memory. I just checked it out, It _Was_ Sept. 1980, and the ][+ was June 1979.) Apple has a great 'History' at: http://product.info.apple.com/pr/background/pr.background.timeline.html (Of course, it doesn't really mention any of the major failures.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 20:09:41 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705070106.TAA01656@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > You can't forget about the PDP-8/E with DECTape drives that > appeared in "Three Days of the Condor". And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, though.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 20:22:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > In the movie _Sneakers_, Ben Kingsley plays an ex-hacker who is now the > financial data processing administrator for the Mob. He has a large > complex of systems including a very Cray-like central processor and all > sorts of fancy accessories. He's extolling the virtues of mob money to > Robert Redford's character, and to illustrate his point he turns on the > Cray's terminal... lo and behold, the Cray runs Microsoft Excel! > > Since we were in a theater about 6 blocks from Microsoft corporate > campus, that scene was the biggest laugh of the film. I thought it was simply amazing how that blind guy could figure out what an electronic device did by simply rubbing his fingers over the components. THAT'S INCREDIBLE! But I digress. I thought the most realistic computer scenes in terms of relevance to reality were in War Games. I think the stupidest were in The Net. I have mixed feelings about Disclosure. But of course, I digress. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 20:31:21 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Starling wrote: > I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in > it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the > computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... I think you're right. I wouldn't mind seeing that movie again to find out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 20:59:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705070106.TAA01656@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > You can't forget about the PDP-8/E with DECTape drives that > > appeared in "Three Days of the Condor". > > And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, > though.) Yes there was. I've never seen one elsewhere. Its such a beautiful machine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 6 22:52:17 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970506235215.00a2bae0@mail.northernway.net> Two of my favorites: ISTR (tho I haven't seen it since it came out) that the original Terminator was programmed in: 1: Basic (Applesoft Basic, wasn't it?) 2: 8-bit Assembly (methinks 6800/6809, but it could have been 6502... memory fuzzy) 3: Get this: COBOL!!!!! ;-O There may have been others... but those are three I distinctly remember from the movie. The other one (of course): Scotty talking to a mouse on an original Macintosh (which, of course) had the computational capabilities of a Cray it would seem... And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! Inquiring minds want to know! Prost, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 22:57:56 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:22 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705070355.VAA21562@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Two of my favorites: > > ISTR (tho I haven't seen it since it came out) that the original Terminator > was programmed in: > > 1: Basic (Applesoft Basic, wasn't it?) > 2: 8-bit Assembly (methinks 6800/6809, but it could have been 6502... > memory fuzzy) That reminds me... was it Inner Space where the guys working on the computers were simply going through pages of monitor dumps on Apple ][+ or //es? ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 22:58:36 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705070355.VAA21661@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! Shouldn't that actually be the 65,536 byte question? ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 6 23:01:40 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970506235215.00a2bae0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! > > Inquiring minds want to know! > I think it wasn't so much that he hadn't "seen" a "qwerty" keyboard inasmuch that he wasn't "used" to one. (thus the "How Quaint" comment) Speaking of movie computers. i don't remember the name of it, might have even been some stupid movie on MST3K like "Robot Holocaust" or something but ANYWAYS... one of the scenes was a cheesy underground "lair" (not unlike a "batcave") that had a requisite mad scientist with his super computer which consisted of a giant steel box with a rectangular hole in the top of it from which peeked a VIC-20! Les From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 23:16:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970506235215.00a2bae0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Two of my favorites: > > ISTR (tho I haven't seen it since it came out) that the original Terminator > was programmed in: > > 1: Basic (Applesoft Basic, wasn't it?) > 2: 8-bit Assembly (methinks 6800/6809, but it could have been 6502... > memory fuzzy) > 3: Get this: COBOL!!!!! ;-O I haven't seen it in a while, and the text wasn't all that readable, but I could swear Terminator I had Apple ][ 6502 disassemblies scrolling through his head. > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! This is almost the same as asking why the new alien species which they just came into contact with speaks english. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 23:20:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? Message-ID: One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. I am pretty darn sure this is some PC clone because it had the requisite function keys and 2 5.25" floppy drives. The drives and monitor and CPU were all one unit (the monitor may have been detachable or just sitting on the CPU). It was labelled "Victor" and the "o" was like a multi-band colored sun (or something). Um, don't know what else to say about it. Does anyone know what this is? I was tempted to pick it up but it was priced at (I think) $40 and wasn't even going to bother haggling (this was the same guy trying to sell two VIC-20s at $25 a piece). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 7 01:05:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 6, 97 06:22:37 pm Message-ID: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970506/7dbad31c/attachment.ksh From transit at primenet.com Wed May 7 00:26:44 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Speaking of computers in movies, anyone remember a late-1981(?) flick called "Evilspeak" where the nerdy kid uses his computer to cast Satanic spells (the commercial showed an Apple II with a pentagram on the screen!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net Wed May 7 00:25:47 1997 From: sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? References: Message-ID: <3370125B.7030@bellsouth.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. > I am pretty darn sure this is some PC clone because it had the requisite > function keys and 2 5.25" floppy drives. The drives and monitor and CPU > were all one unit (the monitor may have been detachable or just sitting > on the CPU). It was labelled "Victor" and the "o" was like a multi-band > colored sun (or something). Um, don't know what else to say about it. > Does anyone know what this is? I was tempted to pick it up but it was > priced at (I think) $40 and wasn't even going to bother haggling (this > was the same guy trying to sell two VIC-20s at $25 a piece). > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Hello Sam, You mean "Vector Graphics" contained S-100 cards, if yes you must grab it because they worth more than 40 bucks!!! And it vintage computer of the past. The Vector Graphics are not IBM PC compatible but using CP/M. If it printed "Victor" hmm sounds like piece of junk and worthless!!! Good luck, Steven From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 01:02:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: <3370125B.7030@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Steven J. Feinsmith wrote: > You mean "Vector Graphics" contained S-100 cards, if yes you must grab > it > because they worth more than 40 bucks!!! And it vintage computer of the > past. The Vector Graphics are not IBM PC compatible but using CP/M. If you meant "If you mean" rather than "you mean" then no, I meant "Victor". > If it printed "Victor" hmm sounds like piece of junk and worthless!!! Perhaps. It depends on what you consider worthless. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 01:00:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > Speaking of computers in movies, anyone remember a late-1981(?) flick > called "Evilspeak" where the nerdy kid uses his computer to cast > Satanic spells (the commercial showed an Apple II with a pentagram on > the screen!) Actually, one of the best (in terms of sillyness) was this movie called DemonSeed where this super-computer becomes sentient, kills its creator, then creates a metallic penis (I am NOT making this up) that it uses to impregnant the creator's wife, whom he is holding captive. She has a 30 day (or so) gestation period and gives birth to the computer's child who grows up to around age 8 or so in about 3 days. I forget what happens after that. I think the kid just babbles about some philosophical crap and the movie ends. I recommend it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 00:57:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > A voice-activated IMSAI? The horrible corruption of the term "hacker" > to mean "cracker", all due to the cluelessness of the screenplay > writers? War Games is/was an incredible insult to the true > switch-flipping hacker community. Look at it relative to the other hacker drivel that's made its way to the theaters since War Games. Okay, yeah, aside from the speech-recognition (forgot about that) and a couple other things, there were many instances of realism in the movie, eg. when what's-his-face (Borderick's character) shorts out the microphone on the old payphone to get a dialtone (factual, back then one had to insert a coin which shorted the tip to ground and signalled the CO to provide dialtone). Now switch to something like Sneakers. The most appalling thing about Sneakers was that they supposedly had actual computer security consultants providing the computer tech. So yeah, its real fucken believable that some guy creates a chip that breaks every conceivable encryption scheme...and oh yeah, when it decodes the info, it happens to come out as a hi-res graphic showing detailed plans/schematics/maps/etc on your screen. Sure, ok. Anyway, I don't know why I'm getting so worked up about this. Who cares. Movies with computer plots are invariably lame and an insult to techie intelligence. Probably the most realistic hacking/phreaking scenes overall was in Three Days of the Condor (or was it five days?) Anyway, never saw the whole movie but of the parts I did see I was impressed, especially when Redford was using a butt-set to tap into phone calls and all that stuff. Very real. Of course, I digress (again). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 01:40:28 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 6, 97 11:00:55 pm Message-ID: <199705070640.AAA28131@calico.litterbox.com> The computer's name was Proteus. The book from which Demonseed was made was written by a guy named Dean R. Koonts. I've been looking for a copy ever since my parents got wind of what the book was about and it disappeared one day... It's very much a psychodrama. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From pcoad at crl.com Wed May 7 01:46:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: <336D1AE4.51F1@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 May 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > I also have begun focusing on the accessories, especially if they are > mint or near it. To me a good user's manual, or a batch of original > software that is still usable is every bit as desirable as a fine old > machine. > I'll have to agree on this point. A bare machine is not as good as one which has all (or even some) of the goodies which go along with the machine. This includes manuals, price lists, advertisements, and 3rd party technical books. I've passed up several bare machines (well, C64s and C128s mostly) because they are common (gazillions were sold) and they didn't even come with a power supply or RF modulator. Then again, I wouldn't think twice about snatching up a bare PDP-(1-15), Altair, Sun 1,2,3, or any of a dozen other desirable machines. Of course I am always looking for any of the stuff that goes along with these machines. I'm not trolling here, just stating that the more very common machines are not desirable to me if they are bare. So what's the point? Preserving the machines is good, but it is only part of the picture. What is the good of preserving a machine if all of "culture" that surrounds the machine is lost? Save those manuals, flyers, ads, boxes, packing foam, and twist-ties. Save them even if you don't have a machine to go with them. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe I'll kick myself when bare C64's are selling for $10,000. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed May 7 02:47:06 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <3370337A.412B@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that resembles a real use of a computer. Face it computers on film are boring. That's why every movie computer has animated graphics and makes noises every time you do something. I worked with a guy in 3-D modeling. He learned how to spin a shaded object on the screen. Every time a (computer clueless) manager came by he'd start spinning. They were really impressed! Then after they left, he'd ask me how to make it do something else. What I really enjoy is the blank screen where you type in "find Bob Smith" and it comes back with everything about the guy including pictures, tax returns, blueprints of his house, and always that little piece of information that ties him to the crime. Where can I get one of those? I remember trying out a little accessory for my mac that caused the thing to beep every time you hit a key. just like in the movies! Drove me crazy after about 30 seconds. From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed May 7 03:29:45 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <199705070829.JAA08020@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu>you write: > > I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in > it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the > computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... > Actually the computer used in Weird Science to create Lisa was a Memotech MTX512 plus the FDX unit. I remember this because I had one. Kevan From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed May 7 04:12:14 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Help me identify a component. Message-ID: <199705070912.KAA08805@cream.motiv.co.uk> Ok, I have an old Anita 1000 calculator which I think dates from around 1967. It is all discrete components mounted on a number of seperate boards. One board has a funny spidery type component on it and I don't know what it is. You can see a picture here: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/card.jpg I have a second Anita that has three of these things on it so I really would like to know what they are. Thanks -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 7 10:19:08 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Help me identify a component. In-Reply-To: <199705070912.KAA08805@cream.motiv.co.uk>; from "Kevan Heydon" at May 07, 97 10:12 am Message-ID: <199705070919.13878@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Ok, > > I have an old Anita 1000 calculator which I think dates from around > 1967. It is all discrete components mounted on a number of seperate > boards. One board has a funny spidery type component on it and I don't > know what it is. You can see a picture here: > > http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/card.jpg It's a bit difficult to see, but it looks like a ferrite torroid with windings on it. Such things were used as pulse transformers, oscillator coils, or logic gates. > Kevan -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 06:05:39 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > A voice-activated IMSAI? It's been a while, but IIRC the IMSAI didn't do speech recognition. It did speech synthesis. It was the big blinkenlight-class Pentagon machine that did speech recognition. You're too right about War Games (and other, more recent films) giving hackers a bad name. It seems extremely unlikely to ever see a film about the adventures of a (real) hacker trying to toggle an Intercal compiler into his PDP-8. Somehow, mainstream people won't see the point. :-| --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 05:58:39 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. [...] > I was tempted to pick it up but it was > priced at (I think) $40 and wasn't even going to bother haggling (this > was the same guy trying to sell two VIC-20s at $25 a piece). That was an ACT Victor 9000, aka Sirius 9000 in Europe. It's a brilliant machine (by coincidence I saw a Sirius keyboard for sale last Sunday). 8088-based, but not PC compatible. Will run the usual OSs and the usual software. I can't remember specs of the top of my head. After the Victor/Sirius, ACT went on to design the Apricot series, with which you may be more familiar. If you need the full specs, I'll be happy to have a look for you! A. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Wed May 7 07:47:17 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) Message-ID: <9704078630.AA863015453@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> >I have read many letters here and I hope this is NOT what we are going >to continually hear - Microsoft reps patting themselves on the back >because they and the company can NEVER BE WRONG. Let's keep company >reps out if they only want to glorify the company (that basically has >the computer world in turmoil with poor quality non-innovative >software). I don't work for Microsoft, but I have had a similar run-in with Dr. Pournelle. I am a professional economist (a "Dr." too, as it happens), and in some discussion forum or other on GEnie I once quoted Milton Friedman's well-known (among economists) remark that "we're all Keynesians now." If you know the way that macroeconomic theory has converged over the past few decades, the remark makes perfect sense and doesn't detract from Friedman's status as the leader of the believers in the unfettered market. However, Pournelle was on me like a ton of bricks. He clearly _didn't_ understand what Keynesian theory was all about and thought that it just stood for government policies that he didn't like. He didn't care about references, because he "knew" that Friedman just _couldn't_ have said that, sort of like those guys who didn't bother to look into Galileo's telescope because they _knew_ the sun couldn't have spots. Eventually I just gave up on the conversation, and I suppose Pournelle thinks that he won the argument. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From zmerch at northernway.net Wed May 7 07:22:04 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: References: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507082204.00a5c8b0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >> > Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of >> > course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to >> > this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this >> > locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than >> > 8K. :) >> >> I think those are only 8kx1. I did look at my expandamem board and the >> chips with the plates on them had (c)Mostek written. > >Actually, I believe the quote you had in your other post said the 4116 was >16k bits... which would make my board 64K, which is too big without some >kind of bank switching scheme, isn't it? Ummmm... methinks your math might be a bit off. 16Kbits would be 2K bytes, so you'd have to have 32 chips on the board to get it to 64Kbytes... how many chips are there on the board? Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From tomph at ix6.ix.netcom.com Wed May 7 02:14:51 1997 From: tomph at ix6.ix.netcom.com (Tom Phelan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone / Heath Message-ID: <199705071302.IAA00761@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Hi All, I've been lurking for one day but had to reply to this one so I hope I'm not breaking any rules. > That was an ACT Victor 9000, aka Sirius 9000 in Europe. It's a brilliant > machine (by coincidence I saw a Sirius keyboard for sale last Sunday). > 8088-based, but not PC compatible. Will run the usual OSs and the usual > software. I can't remember specs of the top of my head. After the > Victor/Sirius, ACT went on to design the Apricot series, with which you may > be more familiar. If you need the full specs, I'll be happy to have a look > for you! Right on. The Victor 9000 was quite a system. Monochrome hi res video. Way ahead of its time IMHO. If I remember right, it was an 8086 based PC that was designed by the same fellow who designed the 6502 chip. Unfortunatly, his name escapes me. It was not IBM compatible in any way which is what really killed it. I had a classroom with 12 of those systems in it. Very reliable. Also had a variable speed 5-1/4 drive that stored more data on the outer tracks by slowing the drive down. Had about 5 different speed zones on the disk so it store 600k per disk. Quite a feat when IBM was still at the 360K density. On another note. The reason I'm here is that someone recommended I drop a line to let you all know I have a Heath Z150 PC that I built back in 1984. I also have all the manuals and schematics and two binders of Remark mag. I no longer have room for it and would like to find a good home for it. Aside from shipping charges, it's free for the taking. I'm located on Long Island in New York. Anyone interested. I'd hate to have to deep six it. Let me know Tom From scott at saskatoon.com Wed May 7 08:24:56 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone / Heath Message-ID: <199705071322.HAA15718@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Hi All, > > Right on. The Victor 9000 was quite a system. Monochrome hi res > video. Way ahead of its time IMHO. If I remember right, it was an > 8086 based PC that was designed by the same fellow who designed the > 6502 chip. Unfortunatly, his name escapes me. Chuck Peddle. From gram at cnct.com Wed May 7 08:30:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Maybe I'll kick myself when bare C64's are selling for $10,000. When that happens, it'll only be because the US is doing a Weimar and a loaf of bread will be $20,000. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Wed May 7 08:03:57 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <9704078630.AA863016432@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> On Tue, 6 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! > > Inquiring minds want to know! > Not to mention that he was able to quickly sketch out the formula for "transparent aluminum" using ghod knows what software. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From transit at primenet.com Wed May 7 09:52:53 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Memotech (was: Re: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705070829.JAA08020@cream.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > Actually the computer used in Weird Science to create Lisa was a > Memotech MTX512 plus the FDX unit. I remember this because I had one. Memotech! I remember reading about this computer back in 1984, and was impressed. (Remember the "Noddy" operating system?) Did any of these make it to the US? > > From transit at primenet.com Wed May 7 09:56:38 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember playing around with some Victors at the neighborhood computer store in 1981 or so. . .did they run CP/M? I also remember reading that they had a wierd disk format, and Victor wanted to control all of the software available for the machine. The article said "You couldn't even get a copy of Dbase II unless you got it through Victor". Any truth to that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cbh at tnx.djmarkets.co.uk Wed May 7 10:25:59 1997 From: cbh at tnx.djmarkets.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Hope nobody minds this rather large posting, but I thought it'd provide the relevant info to plug a gap in the list. Please excuse my poor manners for not formally introducing myself - I'm sure someone will be delighted to forcefully point out to me the list's correct etiquette! On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > I'm sure that just the DEC section should be three times > as long. My resources only go so far ;). Okay, just to do a spot of plagiarism :), here's a (reasonably) complete list of DEC's VMS related stuff (about half of the VAXen could also run Ultrix of one sort or another) The Alphas should probably be left off, as they can hardly be classed as `classic', but I've left them there for completeness. This obviously misses out the entire PDP range, which many people claim are much more interesting! :) Chris. "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" - Neil'83 Chris Hedley -- Dow Jones ltd email: cbh@tnx.djmarkets.co.uk Winchmore House, 15 Fetter Lane, 'phone: +44 171 832 9374 London EC4A 1BR, England fax: +44 171 832 9350 -- VMS CPU Model Summary (14th October 1993) ----------------------------------------- The following table summarises the whole publicly known VAX and AXP model range by CPU type, divided into processor families, and then by subtype, giving approximate chronological order. The information given has the top byte of the SID in hex (containing the CPU type), subtype (XCPU or SYSTYPE), processor ID, approximate speed (relative to a VAX-11/780, in VUPS for most machines, and SPECmark89 (S) for later workstations and Alphas), main I/O bus type (U=UNIBUS, M=MASSBUS, C=CI, Q=QBUS, B=BI, D=DSSI, X=XMI, T=Turbochannel, F=Futurebus+, S=SCSI, E=EISA), model names, and nickname. For AXPs, the ID is replaced by the clock speed in MHz. Information is from publicly available sources such as DEC brochures and press releases, together with the description of SYS$GETSYI in the VMS documentation, and from $PRDEF, $VAXDEF, and $ALPHADEF in the system macro library. This is supplemented with information from USENET group comp.os.vms. Current models are marked by a leading `*'. This list is not an official publication of Laser-Scan - ask DEC if you want confirmed figures! In the fast changing world of computer hardware, its probably out of date when written. However, please let me know of any inaccuracies or omissions. --- Paul Hardy (PGH), Chief Programmer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel: (+44) 223 420414; Fax: 420044, Email: paul@lsl.co.uk (via BRITAIN.EU.NET). VAX CPUs -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- SID | X | Id | Speed | Bus | Model Name | Nickname -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- ---- 700 series (1977) +--------+--------------------------------+-------------- 01 | - | 780 | 1.0 | U,M,C | VAX-11/780 | Star 01 | - | 780 | 1.8 | U,M,C | VAX-11/782 | Atlas 01 | - | 780 | 3.5 | U,M,C | VAX-11/784 | VAXimus 01 | - | 780 | 1.5 | U,M,C | VAX-11/785 | Superstar 02 | - | 750 | 0.6 | U,M,C | VAX-11/750 | Comet 03 | - | 730 | 0.3 | U | VAX-11/730, 725 | Nebula, LCN 04 | - | 790 | 4.0 | U,M,C | VAX 8600, | Venus 04 | - | 790 | 7.0 | U,M,C | VAX 8650 | Morningstar ---- 8000 series (1986)+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- 05 | - | 8SS | 0.9-2 | B,C | VAX 8200, 8300, 8250, 8350 | Scorpio 05 | - | 8SS | 0.9-2 | B,C | VAXstation 8000 | Lynx 06 | - | 8NN | 3 | B,C | VAX 8500 | Flounder 06 | - | 8NN | 4/6 | B,C | VAX 8530, 8550 | Skipjack 06 | - | 8NN | 6/12 | B,C | VAX 8700, 8800 | Nautilus ---- MicroVAX I (1984) - Decimal SID = 117440512 ----------------+-------------- 07 | - | UV1 | 0.3 | Q | MicroVAX I, VAXstation I | Seahorse ---- MicroVAX II series (1985) - Decimal SID = 134217728 --------+-------------- 08 | 1 | UV2 | 0.9 | Q | MicroVAX II,VAXstation II | Mayflower 08 | 1 | UV2 | 0.9 | Q | VAXstation II/GPX | Caylith 08 | 4 | 410 | 0.9 | none | MicroVAX 2000 | TeamMate 08 | 4 | 410 | 0.9 | none | VAXstation 2000 | VAXstar ---- CVAX chip series (1987) - Decimal SID = 167772160 ----------+-------------- 0A | 1 | 650 | 2.8 | Q | MicroVAX 3500, 3600 | Mayfair 0A | 1 | 65D | 2.8 | Q | VAXstation 3200, 3500 | Mayfair/GPX 0A | 1 | 640 | 2.4 | Q,D | MicroVAX 3300, 3400 | Mayfair II 0A | 1 | 655 | 3.8 | Q | MicroVAX 3800, 3900 | Mayfair III 0A | 2 | 9CC | 2.8 | X,B,C | VAX 6000 model 210 | Calypso/XCP 0A | 2 | 9CC | 3.8 | X,B,C | VAX 6000 model 310 | Calypso/XCP 0A | 3 | 60 | 3-10 | Q | VAXstation 3520, 3540 | Firefox 0A | 4 | 420 | 2.8 | S | VAXstation 3100 models 30, 40 | PVAX 0A | 4 | 420 | 2.4 | S | MicroVAX 3100 models 10, 20 | Teammate II 0A | 4 | 420 | 3.5 | S | MicroVAX 3100 models 10e, 20e | Teammate II 0A | 4 | 420 | 3.8 | S | VAXstation 3100 models 38, 48 | PVAX rev#7 * 0A | 7 | 510 | 2.4 | D | VAXft model 110 | Cirrus 0A | 7 | 520 | 3.8 | D | VAXft model 310 | Cirrus ---- Rigel chip series (1990) - Decimal SID = 184549376 ---------+-------------- 0B | 1 | 670 | 8.0 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 300 | Pele 0B | 2 | 9RR | 7-36 | X,B,C | VAX 6000 model 410-460 | Calypso/XRP 0B | 4 | 43 | 7.6 | S | VAXstation 3100 model 76 | RigelMAX ---- Aquarius series (1990) - Decimal SID = 234881024 -----------+-------------- 0E | - | 9AR |40-157 | X,B,C | VAX 9000 models 210, 410-440 | Aridus 0E | - | 9AQ |40-157 | X,B | VAX 9000 models 400-800 | Aquarius ---- Polarstar series (1988) - Decimal SID = 285212672 ----------+-------------- 11 | - | 8PS | 6-22 | B,C | VAX 8810 to 8840 | Polarstar ---- Mariah chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 301989888 --------+------------ 12 | 1 | 690 | 16 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 400 | Omega/M 12 | 2 | 1202|13-58 | XBCD | VAX 6000 model 510-560 | Calypso/XMP 12 | 4 | 46 | 12 | T,S | VAXstation 4000 model 60 | PMariah * 12 | 4 | 46 | 12 | S | MicroVAX 3100 model 80 | Waverley/M ---- NVAX chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 318767104 ----------+-------------- * 13 | 1 | 69D | 24 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 500, 500A | Omega/N * 13 | 1 |1303 | 24 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 100, 100A | Cheetah-Q * 13 | 1 | 690 | 32 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 600, 600A | Omega/N+ * 13 | 1 | 690 | 40 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 700A | Legacy 13 | 2 | 1302|32-150 | XBDC | VAX 6000 models 610-660 | Neptune * 13 | 4 |1303 | 24 | S | MicroVAX 3100 model 90 | Cheetah * 13 | 4 | 49 |32.8 S | T,S | VAXstation 4000 model 90 | Cougar * 13 | 7 | ??? | 30 | D | VAXft model 810 | Jetstream ---- SOC chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 335544320 -----------+-------------- 14 | 1 | 660 | 5.0 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 200 | Spitfire 14 | 4 | 440 | 6.2 S | S | VAXstation 4000 VLC (model 30) | PVAX2/VLC * 14 | 4 | 440 | 5.0 | S | MicroVAX 3100 models 30, 40 | Waverley/S 14 | 7 | 550 | 6.0 | D | VAXft model 410, 610 | Cirrus II ---- NVAX+ chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 385875968 ---------+-------------- * 17 | 3 | 1701|35-120 | X,C,D | VAX 7000 models 610-640 | Laser/Neon * 17 | 3 | 1701|35-120 | X,C,D | VAX 10000 models 610-640 | Blazer -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- Alpha AXP CPUs -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- SID | S |Clock| SPECs | Bus | Model Name | Nickname -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- ---- EV4 AXP chip series (1992) - Decimal SID = -2147483648 -----+-------------- * 80 | 2 | 180 | 135 S | F,D,S | DEC 4000 model 610 | Cobra * 80 | 2 | 190 | 150?S | F,D,S | DEC 4000 model 710 | Fang * 80 | 3 | 180 | 150 S | X,C,D | DEC 7000 model 610 | Laser/Ruby * 80 | 3 | 180 | 160 S | X,C,D | DEC 10000 model 610 | Blazer/Ruby * 80 | 4 | 150 | 126 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 500W or S | Flamingo * 80 | 4 | 200 | 180?S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 800W or S | Flamingo II * 80 | 4 | 133 | 111 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 400W or S | Sandpiper * 80 | 4 | 175 | 157 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 600W or S | Sandpiper+ * 80 | 4 | 200 | 161 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 500X | Hot Pink * 80 | 4 | 150 | 85 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 300 | Pelican * 80 | 4 | 100 | 55 S | S | DEC 3000 model 300L | Pelica * 80 | ? | 150 | 100 S | S,E | DEC 2000 model 300, pc AXP/150 | Jensen -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- From dcobley at island.net Wed May 7 10:27:07 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Xerox 860's available Message-ID: <199705071527.IAA30152@norm.island.net> Forwarded from comp.os.cpm:- From: schach@garnet.berkeley.edu (Linda B) Subject: Xerox 860's -- anyone interested Date: 6 May 1997 17 : 59 : 43 GMT Organization: University of California at Berkeley Have several Xerox 860 8080 CP/M computers as well as Diablo 630 printers modified to work specifically with them. They are located in Berkeley, nyone interested in them? Linda B From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed May 7 11:01:45 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Memotech (was: Re: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705071601.RAA18229@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message you writ e: > > On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > > > > Actually the computer used in Weird Science to create Lisa was a > > Memotech MTX512 plus the FDX unit. I remember this because I had one. > > Memotech! I remember reading about this computer back in 1984, and was > impressed. (Remember the "Noddy" operating system?) I was too. At the time we had a Video Genie but I wanted a color machine that was Z80 based. I wanted a real keyboard so that cut out the Spectrum so it was a toss up between the Lynx and the Memotech. Thankfully the Memotech won. I still have this machine, along with another my younger brother bought, and an RS128 that I picked up last year. The Noddy system was designed to allow you to create simple menu based systems. I can't remember if it allowed you to do anything of any real use as I never used it at the time. I either used BASIC plus in the inbuilt assembler/debugger or Pascal on the Highsoft Pascal ROM board I had. > Did any of these make it to the US? One must have to make the Movie. I really don't know why they choose to use this machine when there were so many US machines. I guess it could be because the graphics you see on the screen in the movie are far superior to the capabilities of the machine, and if they had used a popular US machine the audience would have seen right through it. Kevan From spc at armigeron.com Wed May 7 11:25:11 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 6, 97 03:48:37 pm Message-ID: <199705071625.MAA27919@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Kai Kaltenbach once stated: > > In the movie _Sneakers_, Ben Kingsley plays an ex-hacker who is now the > financial data processing administrator for the Mob. He has a large > complex of systems including a very Cray-like central processor and all > sorts of fancy accessories. He's extolling the virtues of mob money to > Robert Redford's character, and to illustrate his point he turns on the > Cray's terminal... lo and behold, the Cray runs Microsoft Excel! I didn't make the connection that it was the Cray's terminal; I thought it was a Window's box. Now, to turn this back to an on-topic thread, the microcomputer used in "War Games" was one of the last IMSAI's if I recall correctly. And does anyone know what computers where used for the graphics in "Tron" and "The Last Starfighter"? -spc (And Lazlo's computer in "Real Genius" looked like a Sun) From sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net Wed May 7 11:29:42 1997 From: sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Help me identify a component. References: <199705070919.13878@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3370ADF6.15C3E54C@bellsouth.net> A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > I have an old Anita 1000 calculator which I think dates from around > > 1967. It is all discrete components mounted on a number of seperate > > boards. One board has a funny spidery type component on it and I don't > > know what it is. You can see a picture here: > > > > http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/card.jpg > > It's a bit difficult to see, but it looks like a ferrite torroid with > windings on it. Such things were used as pulse transformers, oscillator > coils, or logic gates. > > > Kevan The spidery type component showed in your picture was an integrated circuit that mounted into transistor-like physical. I believe the part number is top of the cover that hide by against the board. It could be multitransistor in one physical appearance. In early days of intergrated circuit chips tend mounted on transistor type hardware before they revised into new physical shapes as today. Steven From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 11:48:31 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071625.MAA27919@armigeron.com> from "Captain Napalm" at May 7, 97 12:25:11 pm Message-ID: <199705071648.KAA30560@calico.litterbox.com> I'm pretty sure Tron was done on a Cray of some kind. I don't know what kind of machine Last Starfighter was done on, but I'll find out. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From tomph at ix3.ix.netcom.com Wed May 7 06:29:23 1997 From: tomph at ix3.ix.netcom.com (Tom Phelan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? Message-ID: <199705071716.MAA06349@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> Hi Again, > I remember playing around with some Victors at the neighborhood computer > store in 1981 or so. . .did they run CP/M? The original lot we used ran CPM/86. As the IBM continued to grow in market share a version of MS/DOS modified specifically for the Victor was released. > I also remember reading that they had a wierd disk format, and Victor > wanted to control all of the software available for the machine. The wierd disk format came from the multi speed floppy drive and the zones. 600K on one side of a 5-1/4" disk. Not bad for it's time. > The > article said "You couldn't even get a copy of Dbase II unless you got it > through Victor". Any truth to that? Yep, due mainly to the disk format. Can't remember if there were problems with the video driver portion also. The system had a very high resolution. I once saw video being played on the screen. Looked every bit as good as a black and white TV except it was green and black. In any event, you just couldn't bring programs straight over. As far as applications went, they had Victor versions of Lotus, Supercalc, MultiPlan, Multimate, dBase II, Crosstalk, Wordstar and others. It even had a 3D spreadsheet called Victor Calc. There was talk of Victor releasing a disk drive that would read and write IBM format and an emulation board that would allow it to run IBM software. As I remember it, this board was giving them all kinds of headaches. Never really got it to work bug free or at least free enough so that users wouldn't complain. Shortly after this the company went belly up. Seems that they were will established over seas and had a good share of the market. In an attempt to migrate the system to this side of the pond they overextended themselves in the marketing department and opened up too many sales locations all over the country but the sales didn't materialze. I remember them shutting down location after location. That's about all I can remember. Hope that helps. Tom From davidv at cs.mun.ca Wed May 7 12:19:37 1997 From: davidv at cs.mun.ca (David Vincent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071648.KAA30560@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: I think that the "last starfighter" movie graphics were done on a XMP cray supercomputer. I'd love to have one these machines but the power consumptioon would probably kill me financially. ----------------------------------------------------------------- David Vincent, MUN Student davidv@ganymede.cs.mun.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 7 May 1997, Jim wrote: > I'm pretty sure Tron was done on a Cray of some kind. I don't know what kind > of machine Last Starfighter was done on, but I'll find out. > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@calico.litterbox.com > -- > By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. > Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. > The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! > By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. > > Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ > From ekman at lysator.liu.se Wed May 7 12:39:10 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Australian computers... In-Reply-To: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Kevan wrote: > I think the Microbee also originates from Australia. Correct. The Microbee is Australian. I'd love to have one of these. Is there anyone on this list who has one or used to have one? Or who knows if there are still any user groups or similar in Australia? /Fredrik From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 12:45:41 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: from "David Vincent" at May 7, 97 02:49:37 pm Message-ID: <199705071745.LAA31148@calico.litterbox.com> I asked a friend of mine who worked for the company that did the graphics for Starfighter about the computers used in the process. Her reply was as follows: > They were done on a Ramtek 2020, with the images stored and > manipulated using a VAX mainframe. There were a number of things > that people thought were models which were really images done with > the Ramtek. > As I understand it, the 2020 was capable of doing certain kinds of > transforms on the images, but that sometimes the VAX was used for > other kinds of transforms, and then the images piped back to the > 2020 for final display/debugging before going to film. > How, exactly, the images got from the VAX to film, I don't know, > I'm afraid. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From ekman at lysator.liu.se Wed May 7 12:55:41 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Good choice of subject, Sam! If you had just used "yo" again, I might have missed this one. :-) > One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. If it said "Victor PC" and nothing else it was almost certainly a PC clone. Victor was originally an American company (later moved to Sweden) and started out making their own PCs (ie not IBM clones). Their most successful early model must have been the Victor 9000, one of the biggest wants for my collection. It was one of the first pure 16-bit PCs and featured very nice monochrome graphics. The keyboard layout is similar to a PC and it has 2 5.25" floppy drives, so this might have been what you saw. It could run both CP/M and a ported version of MS-DOS. The 9000 was marketed in Britain with the name Sirius ACT-1 or Apricot 1 or something like that. If I remember correctly the 9000 had a dark case and black keys. Later, Victor started making IBM clones, which they continued doing until AST bought them one or two years ago. Anyway, even if what you saw was a 9000 it was probably not worth $40. /Fredrik From ekman at lysator.liu.se Wed May 7 12:56:04 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Bill, You should write a message to NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU announcing the birth of CLASSICCMP. That way, you will reach most of the people who maintain mailing list databases etc. Bill wrote: > I've been reasearching the possibility of putting old magazine articles > up on the ClassicCmp web site. What about Popular Computing? I have a note that I want to find #38, and I don't even remember why. Anyway, the idea is great! /Fredrik From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 7 19:06:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071745.LAA31148@calico.litterbox.com>; from "Jim" at May 7, 97 11:45 am Message-ID: <199705071806.22170@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I asked a friend of mine who worked for the company that did the graphics > for Starfighter about the computers used in the process. > > Her reply was as follows: > > > They were done on a Ramtek 2020, with the images stored and > > manipulated using a VAX mainframe. There were a number of things > > that people thought were models which were really images done with > > the Ramtek. I'm not familiar with that model of Ramtek, but I can talk about a couple of related things that may be of interest. The first is that Ramtek also made lower-end (and I guess cheaper) units, like the RM-9460. This used a 68000 as the main CPU, along with a couple of Z80's for I/O (serial port handling,etc) and some AMD2900 stuff for panning/zooming/window control. The basic design was roughly what you'd expect. A more interesting machine was the I2S model 70 series. I2S are/were International Imaging Systems, who split off (?) from Stanford Technology Corp. The model 70 was a work of art. The basic idea was a 'byteplane' - a raster-scanned area of memory with one byte per pixel. There were a number of these (6-12 was typical), and the outputs of each one went to 3 look up tables, which defined the RGB values for each of the 256 possible bytes. The outputs of all 'Red' lookup tables were then added together (there was a 14-input full adder board!), and the output of that went to another lookup table, and then to a DAC. Repeat all that for the other 2 colours. So far I've described an interesting graphics display, but there was more. There was a thing called the 'feedback ALU' which used 2 of the byteplanes as a 16 bit accumulator. You defined a region on the screen (using a bitplane - this region did not have to be rectangular, or even contiguous), and then defined a function (one of the standard ones provided by the 74181 ALU chip) to be used inside the region, and a different one outside. The thing then performed the function between the displayed image (I _think_ one colour at a time) and the accumulator, and put the result in the accumulator. Oh, you could shift the byteplanes arround, so that you could combine the values from neighbouring pixels. There was also a programable cursor (trackball or tablet-controlled), a histogram board, and even (on some model 75's) a hardware sequencer board (using a 2910 and some RAM) that would run a sequence of operations again and again. I don't know if one was ever used for the special effects in a film, but I'm almost _sure_ one was used to process the weather satellite pictures for the BBC television broadcasts in the UK. Oh, and if you think minicomputers are complex, try one of these. Some early model 70's used 4K DRAMs for the byteplanes. There were typically 3-6 _thousand_ RAM chips, along with a lot of TTL logic.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 7 13:33:31 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071625.MAA27919@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > ... And does > anyone know what computers where used for the graphics in "Tron" and "The > Last Starfighter"? Have to think about 'Tron', but the Cray Y-MP was credited for the graphics for 'Last Starfighter'. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 7 11:29:25 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: Greg Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] | I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that resembles a real | use of a computer. There was a pretty good, rather realistic scene in _Patriot Games_ where Harrison Ford has logged his nemesis' account and is grabbing files full of evidence, while the other guy frantically tries to delete them. _Ferris Bueller's Day Off_ has Ferris breaking into his school's system remotely and changing his grades in a fairly realistic manner. In _Under Siege 2: Dark Territory_, the hero wires into a broken pay phone with a Newton and sends an emergency fax. I had a Newton at the time, and loved this bit. And _Wargames_ was actually pretty realistic; he had the IMSAI with voice synth (probably a CompuTalker) and a demon dialer program, all of which were acceptable realism for me. Plus, at the time, we all thought Ally Sheedy was pretty cute. Kai From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 11:57:44 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: One of those portable Apple II's was in "The Man Who Fell To Earth", used by the English Language lecturer, not Bowie. Incidentally (and also certainly off-topic), in the same movie a rocket was launched (after a lengthy countdown sequence) by punching the "TALK-TO-STUDIO" button on an SSL mixing console. Strange how other things are sometimes used to simulate computers in movies - like all those huge-with-lots-of-pretty-lights mimic panels in every James Bond movie, even the later ones. They all blew up, of course, with huge showers of sparks. The best was HAL - all those perspex memory banks. -- Martin Evans From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed May 7 14:54:07 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705071952.MAA01174@mx2.u.washington.edu> > -spc (And Lazlo's computer in "Real Genius" looked like a Sun) > > if I recall right, in real genuis, they broke into the "military" > computer using a 1200 baud modem and the follwing sequence: > > ATDT 555-1234 > CONNECT > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAA > ** Incorrect Password ** > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAB > ** Incorrect Password ** > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAC > ** Incorrect Password ** > *DISCONNECT* > > ATDT 555-1234 > CONNECT > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAD > ** Incorrect Password ** > > and so on.... From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 14:42:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | From: Greg > Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] > | I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that > resembles a real > | use of a computer. > > There was a pretty good, rather realistic scene in _Patriot Games_ where > Harrison Ford has logged his nemesis' account and is grabbing files full > of evidence, while the other guy frantically tries to delete them. Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. > _Ferris Bueller's Day Off_ has Ferris breaking into his school's system > remotely and changing his grades in a fairly realistic manner. Hardly. Unless he was using some sort of remote control software (like PCAnywhere) or the principal was running a BBS, I don't know of a program that shows someone editing database fields in realtime. > In _Under Siege 2: Dark Territory_, the hero wires into a broken pay > phone with a Newton and sends an emergency fax. I had a Newton at the > time, and loved this bit. Hardly...er uh, wait a second. I didn't even see this, and it actually is very plausible and in fact real. > And _Wargames_ was actually pretty realistic; he had the IMSAI with > voice synth (probably a CompuTalker) and a demon dialer program, all of > which were acceptable realism for me. Plus, at the time, we all thought > Ally Sheedy was pretty cute. Yeah. Actually I still think she's cute. I wish I had a cute chick interested in me when I was a total teenage computer geek (yeah right). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 15:09:41 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 7, 97 12:42:05 pm Message-ID: <199705072009.OAA32024@calico.litterbox.com> I have to disagree about Ally Sheedy - Time (and perhaps her rumored extensive drug use) haven't been very kind to her. But yeah, in war games/breakfast club/Short Circuit/Saint Elmo's fire... wow. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 7 15:13:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Martin Evans wrote: > One of those portable Apple II's was in "The Man Who Fell To > Earth", used by the English Language lecturer, not Bowie. I find that rather hard to believe, since that movie was released in 1976. The Apple II was still being designed at the time, and IIRC the portable was quite some time later. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From spc at armigeron.com Wed May 7 15:31:15 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071952.MAA01174@mx2.u.washington.edu> from "Matt Pritchard" at May 7, 97 02:54:07 pm Message-ID: <199705072031.QAA28826@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Matt Pritchard once stated: > > > > -spc (And Lazlo's computer in "Real Genius" looked like a Sun) > > > > if I recall right, in real genuis, they broke into the "military" > > computer using a 1200 baud modem and the follwing sequence: > > > > ATDT 555-1234 > > CONNECT > > > > login: SYSTEM > > password: AAAAAD > > ** Incorrect Password ** > > > > and so on.... The scene I was talking about was when Mitch enters the steam tunnels, follows them down to see where Lazlo lives. The computer Lazlo is using reminds me quite a bit of a Sun. -spc ("Kent, this is God ... ") From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 7 16:24:57 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > And _Wargames_ was actually pretty realistic; he had the IMSAI with > voice synth (probably a CompuTalker) and a demon dialer program, all of > which were acceptable realism for me. Reminds me of a Computer Faire that I was exhibiting at not too long after the movie released. Had my IMSAI (amongst others) displayed on the table running Processor Tech 8080 Chess on the display, and a little button on the rear of the table that, when pressed caused the IMSAI to wake up the Votrax (under the table) and ask: "would you like to play a game?" You could identify the paranoid movie goers REAL quickly! (the ones that jumped the highest or ran the fastest!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 7 16:29:07 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 7 May 1997, Martin Evans wrote: > > > One of those portable Apple II's was in "The Man Who Fell To > > Earth", used by the English Language lecturer, not Bowie. > > I find that rather hard to believe, since that movie was released in > 1976. The Apple II was still being designed at the time, and IIRC the > portable was quite some time later. On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make Contact". (or did I muck the title up?) Did I miss the battery pack option somewhere??? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From groberts at mitre.org Wed May 7 19:56:29 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507205629.0082e930@postman> At 09:29 AM 5/7/97 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >_Ferris Bueller's Day Off_ has Ferris breaking into his school's system >remotely and changing his grades ... while that sounds like something Ferris Bueller would do, i think you're thinking of the early part of War Games (before he started WW III) where he logs into the school computer (password: pencil). - glenn From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 7 20:16:47 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C97E34@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> (Patriot Games) | Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off | of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. Windows? (Ferris Bueller) | Hardly. Unless he was using some sort of remote control software (like | PCAnywhere) or the principal was running a BBS, I don't know of a program | that shows someone editing database fields in realtime. Well, the bit about seeing the cursor move was dramatic license, but certainly there are numerous databases that will show dynamic updates in real time. | Actually I still think she's cute. I wish I had a cute chick | interested in me when I was a total teenage computer geek (yeah right). Well... there was the english professor's daughter, Becka... but she wasn't interested in my computer, she liked my... er... poetry. Kai From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed May 7 19:58:49 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:23 2005 Subject: Colmputers in Movies & T.V. References: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33712549.3E64@goldrush.com> Since I am a real fan of computers in movies and books let me try to clarify some of this stuff... Doug Spencer: >Actually, the (Apple) III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? That's the machine in Flynn's place, he was hacking into the Encomm system with it. Later they show Flynn and Laura Sneaking through a data processing center on their way to to a terminal in Laser Bay 2. I don't know minis from mainframes, so I'll leave it at that. From: "Starling" > I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in > it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the > computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... When the computer created girl asked for a name, Gary suggested Lisa, a girl he met in school who he had a crush on. They show what looks like an IBM clone (modular Franklin unit?) at Wyatt's house, (I like that RETURN key with the flashing lights, probably even if you had it and instructed the user to press it they still would press the wrong one.) Also shows a terminal and bank of large reel-to-reel tape units in the 'military center' they hacked into. From: "Scott Walde" > And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, though.) Yes, pretty blue and red switches, lights, with 8 inch drives. From: Sam Ismail > I thought it was simply amazing how that blind guy could figure out what > an electronic device did by simply rubbing his fingers over the > components. THAT'S INCREDIBLE! But I digress. First he ran his fingers over the box and then had the kid power it up and interface it to his braille reader, then he scanned the output through the reader. I thought that movie had good merit behind it's ideas... > I thought the most realistic computer scenes in terms of relevance to > reality were in War Games. I consider parts of it a documentary. Was a great boon for the BBS community. War dialing was well explained (and also given that name) in the film. From: "Mr. Self Destruct" > MST3k... that had a requisite mad scientist with his super > computer which consisted of a giant steel box with a rectangular hole in > the top of it from which peeked a VIC-20! Well at least someone knows a 'Super' Computer when they see one. *grin* From: Sam Ismail > This is almost the same as asking why the new alien species which they > just came into contact with speaks english. Ship's computer translates alien tongues via crew's communicators, Deep Space Nine and Voyager have been clearing that up in recent episodes. Sighting for you classic fans: Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan: In Kirk's place, in front of the window, an original PET computer (BASIC startup screen showing) From: Tim Shoppa >> I thought the most realistic computer scenes in terms of relevance to >> reality were in War Games. > A voice-activated IMSAI? The IMSAI wasn't voice activated, it had a voice sythesiser (must be a standard issue, even the 'crystal palace' had them), which at times failed to narrate all the text being displayed on the screen. > The horrible corruption of the term "hacker" > to mean "cracker", all due to the cluelessness of the screenplay > writers? War Games is/was an incredible insult to the true > switch-flipping hacker community. I don't think the term 'hacker' was used.. They just said 'someone' or 'that kid' broke into the WOPR. No, "Hackers" was the bad press film, yuck! From: "Charles P. Hobbs" > Speaking of computers in movies, anyone remember a late-1981(?) flick > called "Evilspeak" where the nerdy kid uses his computer to cast > Satanic spells (the commercial showed an Apple II with a pentagram on > the screen!) That Apple II was in the movie too. Coopersmith used it to translate the evil texts. From: Sam Ismail > Actually, one of the best (in terms of sillyness) was this movie called > DemonSeed where this super-computer becomes sentient, kills its creator, Nope, Proteus kills a technician who came by to see why the creator's soon to be ex-wife's home automation system was malfunctioning. > [Proteus] then creates a metallic penis (I am NOT making this up) that it uses to > impregnant the creator's wife, whom he is holding captive. Sorry, the egg is removed via robot (the hand on the wheelchair), altered and then replaced. > She has a 30 day (or so) gestation period and gives birth to the computer's child who > grows up to around age 8 or so in about 3 days. I forget what happens > after that. Proteus is shut down and the incubator starts to fail, the creator helps the then 'thing' out of it, (at that point the wife freaks, as she thinks she has been majorly used by Proteous and wants to kill the 'thing'), they discover there is a shell covering the child (who has the likeness of their recently deceased daughter) They wash and carress the child as their own. > I think the kid just babbles about some philosophical crap "I live!" she says in Proteus' voice. (philosophical alright) > and the movie ends. I recommend it. So do I. "Demon Seed" along with "Colossus: the Forbin Project" and "Tron", 3 movies about computers that aren't actaully as bad as they were portrayed. All of them had noble goals in mind but the reluctance of 'change for the betterment of all' and fear of their creators lead to their eventual downfall. If any of you are into reading books or watching movies where computers play a key role (or character) check out the list I'm compiling on my web site (address below.) Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 20:54:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C97E34@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > (Patriot Games) > | Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the > file contents off > | of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. > > Windows? As bad as windows is, it at least does not do that ;) > (Ferris Bueller) > | Hardly. Unless he was using some sort of remote control > software (like > | PCAnywhere) or the principal was running a BBS, I don't know > of a program > | that shows someone editing database fields in realtime. > > Well, the bit about seeing the cursor move was dramatic license, but > certainly there are numerous databases that will show dynamic updates in > real time. Only if specifically programmed that way. Otherwise, if you are on a record (in read only mode) and someone is updating that information, you don't see the actual characters populating the field one by one as they are being typed. Anyway, this has gone from a simple aside to a full-blown, non-classic computer discussion. We should get back to discussing the classic computers we see in movies, rather than argue over whether what they were made to do was feasible or not. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 21:01:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Colmputers in Movies & T.V. In-Reply-To: <33712549.3E64@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > From: Sam Ismail > > I thought it was simply amazing how that blind guy could figure out what > > an electronic device did by simply rubbing his fingers over the > > components. THAT'S INCREDIBLE! But I digress. > > First he ran his fingers over the box and then had the kid power it up > and interface it to his braille reader, then he scanned the output > through the reader. I thought that movie had good merit behind it's > ideas... BAH! What was he reading? The voltage and current levels of each pin-out of each component on the circuit board? TTL levels of certain ICs? What? It was totally ridiculous! (Everyone's a critic.) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 7 20:47:10 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Colmputers in Movies & T.V. Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C97E4E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: Larry Anderson & Diane Hare[SMTP:foxnhare@goldrush.com] | If any of you are into reading books or watching movies where | computers play a key role (or character) check out the list I'm | compiling on my web site (address below.) Try this: http://us.imdb.com/M/search_plots?for=computer Kai From mhop at snip.net Wed May 7 22:37:57 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: movie computers - Outland Message-ID: <19970508040558586.AAA140@computer-name> > I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that resembles a real > use of a computer. Face it computers on film are boring. That's why > every movie computer has animated graphics and makes noises every time > you do something. What about the movie Outland? The Doc used a computer to analyze a dead man's blood for drugs, and the graphics were reasonably occilloscopic-like to seem realistic. Don't forget "Mother" in Alien. No graphics, just reporting the facts. mhop@snip.net From mhop at snip.net Wed May 7 22:55:08 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Wanted: magazine? Message-ID: <19970508040558586.AAB140@computer-name> > What about Popular Computing? I have a note that I want to find #38, and I > don't even remember why. You mean vol 3, number 8? June of 84? (I have been cleaning up my apt and am find lots of old stuff) mhop@snip.net From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 6 23:43:38 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705070106.TAA01656@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970506214338.006dd7ac@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:09 PM 5/6/97 -0600, you wrote: >> You can't forget about the PDP-8/E with DECTape drives that >> appeared in "Three Days of the Condor". > >And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, >though.) Yep... and what always struck me as such a hoot was that he never once turned the disk drives on! (the IMSAI drives having some rather prominent indicators on the panel) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 8 00:36:15 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Help ID this card... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970503225046.006e92a4@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507223615.00ee53e8@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:53 PM 5/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 3 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >> Markings on card: >> >> Xebec (now you know why I suspect a HD ctrlr) >> FCC ID CF77KL103916APPLE >> Assy 103916-04 >> Rev H-04 >> S/N 9-0733 > >Just as I suspected. Its a HD controller card alright, but for the Sider >harddrive. As far as I know, it won't work with the Profile. Hmmm... well, good news, bad news, better than no news! Thanks -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu May 8 01:00:26 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) What is it? How old is it? Les From classicjr at juno.com Thu May 8 10:37:11 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest References: <199704090702.AAA00484@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970508.073842.5303.0.classicjr@juno.com> Bill, it looks like I will have to unsubscribe then re-subscribe again. I have not received any digest since May 1st. Can you please reply with instructions? Thanks! Jeff R. From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 08:02:51 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen > using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD > display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make > Contact". (or did I muck the title up?) Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. And apparently the idea was to use something that didn't look like it would be obsolete the week before the movie opened. The month after -- well, that's another story. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 08:07:27 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: > A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got > a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI > calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and > a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > > What is it? How old is it? I vaguely recall TI doing mag-card programmables, but I've no memory of just when or for how long. That sort of mag-card technology in hand-held programmable calculators I believe first appeared in Hewlett-Packard's HP-65 in 1973. As a starting freshman at Georgia Tech, I left a lot of drool on the display case across the street at the Engineers' Bookstore. But $795.00 was a little beyond my budget at the time, so I made do with my old 10" Pickett. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From groberts at mitre.org Thu May 8 08:09:59 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508090959.00800b40@postman> those are magnetic strips storing programs. you would read the strip in, then insert it in a special holder below the row of function keys on the calculator. you could label the strip so you remember what each function key is programmed for. HP first introduced this with the HP67 (pocket version) and HP97 (desk version) and TI followed suit with their own equivalent. This was probably vintage late 70's or early 80's? - glenn At 02:00 AM 5/8/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: >A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got >a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI >calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and >a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > >What is it? How old is it? > >Les > > > > From zmerch at northernway.net Thu May 8 08:18:28 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508091828.0098b8d0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Mr. Self Destruct said: >Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: >A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got >a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI >calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and >a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > >What is it? How old is it? > >Les Sounds like you might be talking about the TI-59 (? did the TI-58 have this capability also? I've never seen a 58). I used one in high school... really neato once you got used to TI's programming practices. It also had a 32 or 40 column thermal printer that the calculator mounted to, and then the printer served as the base. The mag strip was mainly for data storage or user-created programs, as it also had the capability to use pre-programmed ROM cartridges. They even had a cartridge of games! ISTR a football game that printed out all the team stats on the printer. A very interesting piece of hardware. Hope this helps, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 8 09:39:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508090959.00800b40@postman> from "Glenn Roberts" at May 8, 97 09:09:59 am Message-ID: <9705081339.AA22611@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970508/a8968d10/attachment.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 8 14:51:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <9705081339.AA22611@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at May 8, 97 6:39 am Message-ID: <199705081351.22720@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > those are magnetic strips storing programs. you would read the strip in, > > then insert it in a special holder below the row of function keys on the > > calculator. you could label the strip so you remember what each function > > key is programmed for. HP first introduced this with the HP67 (pocket Actually, the first HP _handheld_ with a card reader was the HP65, which came out a couple of years before the HP67. I have both machines, and they're very nice :-) > > version) and HP97 (desk version) and TI followed suit with their own > > equivalent. This was probably vintage late 70's or early 80's? > > Magnetic-card programming of calculators was certainly around before > then. My HP9100, for example, has a card reader/writer (though I've > never used it - anybody have any cards compatible with this nearly > 3-decade-old classic?) I have a _few_ cards, but they're not up for grabs. I have an HP9100B (a _real_ calculator ;-) that uses them and one day I'll get round to replacing the card reader roller and using said reader again. The machine is perfect apart from that. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 8 10:40:25 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <199705081351.22720@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at May 8, 97 02:51:41 pm Message-ID: <9705081440.AA03411@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970508/5613a6ae/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 8 10:17:02 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 7 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen > > using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD > > display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make > > Contact". (or did I muck the title up?) > > Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high > it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. > And apparently the idea was to use something that didn't look like it > would be obsolete the week before the movie opened. The month after -- > well, that's another story. True enough with regard to movie production budgets (and probably that Apple traded gear for screen time/credits), but it was REAL hard to sell a 'screen' that cost nearly as much as the computer in the 'real world'. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop..com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From HamiJohn at aol.com Thu May 8 10:18:11 1997 From: HamiJohn at aol.com (HamiJohn@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: <970508105332_-97344697@emout12.mail.aol.com> Hi Les, In a message dated 97-05-08 07:54:21 EDT, you write: << Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) What is it? How old is it? >> It was either a SR-52 (1975) or TI-59 (1977). The first had a 100 step memory, the latter a 960 step memory. You could store programs and data on those tiny magnetic strips (guess they were like tiny floppies - except you turned the card around to read the second track)! Really great "micro-micro" computers. A terrific way to learn the thought process of efficient programming (once wrote a Social Security retirement program on the TI-59). What one could do when the bytes were few! John Hamilton hamijohn@aol.com "Life would be much easier if I had the source code ..." From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 8 16:39:01 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <9705081440.AA03411@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at May 8, 97 7:40 am Message-ID: <199705081539.14870@tw300.eng.cam.ac.uk> [HP9100's] > If you ever get a chance, try to determine the specifications for > the "clock track" on the card. My analysis of the circuitry led Uh-Oh... _Another_ project goes on the list.... Which reminds me. Where (in the UK, preferably) can you buy Magnasee, either as a spray-on stuff, or as one of those little bubble magnifiers? I would like to obtain some for various repair/preservation jobs. > me to believe that one of the tracks was pre-formatted at the > factory and used as the clock for reading and writing operations. What do you know about the circuitry. I think you're right, BTW, based on the info in the manual and the appropriate HP journal, but I wondered what else you knew. In fact, I think it's one clock track in each direction. I suspect the HP65/67 cards also have a clock track on them. I'm pretty sure the HP71 ones do. > I'm pretty sure I could make a card formatter if I just had one > working card to study. Should be possible. > Tim. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu May 8 11:03:38 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508091828.0098b8d0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Sounds like you might be talking about the TI-59 (? did the TI-58 have this > capability also? I've never seen a 58). I used one in high school... really > neato once you got used to TI's programming practices. It also had a 32 or > 40 column thermal printer that the calculator mounted to, and then the > printer served as the base. > Now that I think of it, I have the printer lying around here too....somewhere... Les From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 11:08:39 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > On Thu, 8 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > On Wed, 7 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen > > > using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD > > > display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make > > Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high > > it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. > > True enough with regard to movie production budgets (and probably that > Apple traded gear for screen time/credits), but it was REAL hard to sell > a 'screen' that cost nearly as much as the computer in the 'real world'. > B^} Yah. Priced any 21" monitors lately? [I have _got_ to get me one. And a smart video/keyboard/mouse switch to cut down at least a little bit on the amount of desk surface I need. Not that this applies to any of the systems that we care about in this mailing list, except for a switch system to select which of half a dozen or more devices want channel 3 on the TV.] -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 8 12:09:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <199705081539.14870@tw300.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at May 8, 97 04:39:01 pm Message-ID: <9705081609.AA04895@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1623 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970508/f8247683/attachment.ksh From frankhil at mediaport.org Thu May 8 11:27:32 1997 From: frankhil at mediaport.org (Frank Hilbrands) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970508162732.0067ed0c@mediaport.org> can someone please unsubscribe me? I'm on holliday and can't take the daily load of this list. Frank From MPritchard at ensemble.net Thu May 8 11:33:04 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: <199705081631.JAA07260@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: > A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got > a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI > calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and > a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > > What is it? How old is it? > > Probably a TI-59. I recall owning a TI-58c and TI-59 calculator back > in high school. In fact, I think I still have the TI-59, books and > cards for it buried somewhere. If anyone is interested, I don't have > any desire to collect calculators. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu May 8 12:53:19 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <199705081631.JAA07260@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508135319.00a5f340@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Matt Pritchard said: [snipperoni...] >> Probably a TI-59. I recall owning a TI-58c and TI-59 calculator back >> in high school. In fact, I think I still have the TI-59, books and >> cards for it buried somewhere. If anyone is interested, I don't have >> any desire to collect calculators. I'd be very interested... provided you don't want a million dollars for it. Lemme know what you want for it and I'll take it. To figure shipping, my zip is 49788. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Thu May 8 13:15:55 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: The List! & books involving computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970504234219.00928860@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Whilst in a self-induced trance, Steven J. Feinsmith happened to blather: > >Susan M Johnson wrote: > > >> Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 > >> & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not > >> common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. > > > >During days of H/Z-110 and 120... there are only two floppy disk drives, > >5.25" and 8". The 8" system was short lived. There was never using > >3.5 8" system short lived?? Hmm, guess there are numerous H/Z-100 users out there who don't know that :) > >but some people successful attempted this way when H/Z-100 were no > >longer > >in market. They have to write a special software included BIOS to work > >with 3.5" drive. SCSI system on H/Z-110 or 120 was very rarely. Those > >days it was called SASI. There was never using tape drive or CD-ROM > >drives > >because H/Z-110 or 120 never use with IDE or EIDE. But it can use with > >SCSI based interfaced. > > I have a few comments on what each of you said: > > Steven: Notice that Susan wrote "Currently," at the beginning of the > sentance. That means that altho the 3.5" disk drives weren't available at > the time of the machine's introduction, you can easily get any machine that > uses the standard 34-pin floppy interface to use a 3.5" disk drive. I Right, the 3.5" drive support was not part of the original Heath/Zenith design; it was provided later by some members of a user group. You can use either the 34-pin interface or the 50-pin interface to run it. (Z-100 has both interfaces, the 50-pin floppy interface being the one you also use for the 8" drives.) > Steven: Also, SASI and SCSI are *different*, SASI being the precursor of > SCSI. Altho they are *somewhat* compatible IIRC, SCSI did have extra > features that could not be used with a SASI interface. > The SCSI support wasn't part of the original design, either. An add-in board to provide that capability was designed, built, and put into production a few years ago by several members of the user group. I am now using a 170 Meg SCSI drive (not SASI) on my computer as a result. > Susan: You're sentance above is slightly misleading, however, as there were > no 96tpi 3.5" drives that I've ever heard of (and I own some *weird* ones!) > Everything from the 200K SSSD Tandy Portable Disk Drive 2 (used for Tandy's > *early* non-MSDOS laptops) right on up to the 2.88Meg ED drives are 135TPI. > > Hope this helps! > Roger "Merch" Merchber Yup, I screwed up on that. Should have said that it now supports double-density and high-density 3.5" drives. You can either use a regular MS-DOS format (720 K or 1.4 M), or a non-standard format that results in 800 K or 1.8 M disks. I've got a dual-density 3.5" drive that works great at either DD or HD, standard or non-standard formats. It is also possible to use a quad-density drive although I don't personally have one. On another matter, I think someone mentioned something about compiling a list of books/movies that involve computers. _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_ by Robert A. Heinlein involves a sentient computer who helps guide a revolution on the moon against Earth. Unfortunately, while the revolution was successful, the computer was no longer sentient at the end. :( I can't remember if the computer had a name. Susan From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 13:51:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: The List! & books involving computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > On another matter, I think someone mentioned something about compiling a > list of books/movies that involve computers. _The Moon Is A Harsh > Mistress_ by Robert A. Heinlein involves a sentient computer who helps > guide a revolution on the moon against Earth. Unfortunately, while the > revolution was successful, the computer was no longer sentient at the > end. :( I can't remember if the computer had a name. Mycroft Holmes. One of my favorite books, and probably one of the two novels most influential on modern libertarianism, after Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_. For those so inclined, I heartily recommend that you web over to for the current top libertarian SF novel: _Kings of the High Frontier_ by Victor Koman. A damned good book IMAO. End of plug. Besides being a good writer, Vic is an old acquaintence. Other fiction concerning computers: _The Adolescence of P-1_ by Thomas K. Ryan. A sapient program occupies every IBM mainframe connected to teleprocessing. Seventies technology and terminology, written back then by an actual IBM jock. _The Shockwave Rider_ by John Brunner. The country is all wired and privacy is difficult except for one individual who has the "savant" ability (and a stolen identity code) to rewrite his whole record on the fly. This book introduced the world to the terms "worm" and "phage" which have since become stock vocabulary in the computer field. _The Two Faces of Tomorrow_ by James P. Hogan. Before installing artificial intelligence in the world-wide control networks, experiment with it in the "controlled" environment of a space colony. Attack it and see if it will learn to defend itself. All three books are from the late seventies and it shows. No problem, they're still good books just like a TRS-80 Mod One and an Apple II from the same period are still good computers. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Thu May 8 15:29:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <9705081609.AA04895@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Which reminds me. Where (in the UK, preferably) can you buy Magnasee, > > either as a spray-on stuff, or as one of those little bubble magnifiers? I > > would like to obtain some for various repair/preservation jobs. > > I've never seen spray-on Magnasee. I bought a can of the > liquid stuff from DECdirect about half a year ago for US$6.00. > In the US, you can reach DECdirect by calling 1-800-DIGITAL; What's Magnasee? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From josh at netins.net Thu May 8 15:43:35 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: <199705082043.PAA07138@ins1.netins.net> >Magnetic-card programming of calculators was certainly around before >then. My HP9100, for example, has a card reader/writer (though I've >never used it - anybody have any cards compatible with this nearly >3-decade-old classic?) > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) I recently sold my HP9100b. It had several cards with it, and even a program library book! Hang on to your 9100 what ever you do! I got $750 for mine, I'm sure an origional 9100 would go for a few more! It was the first desktop calculator HP made, way back in 1967-69 (somewhere around there) Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From marcw at lightside.com Thu May 8 17:59:12 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? Message-ID: <199705090131.SAA20662@covina.lightside.com> Howdy all, In our newspaper they have a little item called NO KIDDING. In it they list little trivia things. A few days ago there was one on "Now You Know" listing things that are different than history says (one was that Linbergh was actually the 67th person to fly solo across the Atlantic). Each daily listing also shows the reference in case no one believes. Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" The reason for certain names of companies/items. Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. Atari - to look like a Japanese company Does anyone know if these reasons are true? Sounds funny but then we really don't know how/why certain names are chosen. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From dastar at crl.com Thu May 8 22:46:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705090131.SAA20662@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997 marcw@lightside.com wrote: > Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" > The reason for certain names of companies/items. > > Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. > Atari - to look like a Japanese company > > Does anyone know if these reasons are true? Sounds funny but then > we really don't know how/why certain names are chosen. Rumor has it Steve Jobs was eating an Apple when they decided to name their company. I think this rumor was debunked, but the real story eludes me. I believe the one behind Atari...where the hell else would you get a name like that? I think Atari is a cool name though. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri May 9 02:08:23 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <337bcce0.26389265@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >My guess is that someone peeled off the chrome veneer from the plastic >substrate . . . I don't believe there is a "plastic substrate", the metal was probably removed (easily done). _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From starling at umr.edu Fri May 9 03:19:59 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705090131.SAA20662@covina.lightside.com> from "marcw@lightside.com" at May 8, 97 05:59:12 pm Message-ID: <199705090819.DAA27909@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" > The reason for certain names of companies/items. > > Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. Heard two different stories: 1) Jobs & Wozinak sitting around in garage trying to think of a name. They agree to close their eyes and name it the first thing that they see when they open them: Apple. 2) This is the more plausible one that I think is true: Apple is named after Allan Turing. Turing, for those that don't know, was a English computer scientist that helped crack the Nazi Enigma code during WWII. He also did a lot of theoretical work in AI that set the foundation for a lot of other computer scientists (heard of the "Turing Test?"). Turing's other hobby was poisons. He enjoyed studying making and playing with poisons. Well, it also happens that Allan Turing was gay. In 1940s England, this was a federal offense. He was arrested and sentenced to forced to take the estrogen hormone to try to "fix" him. Needless to say this was unbearable and he decided to take his own life. It is said that Turing was obsessed with the story of Snow White and the poison APPLE. So he took his own life by poisoning an apple and eating it. (all this up until this point is true) Then what I've heard is that Jobs wanted to name the company in memory of Turing's apple, which would explain the bite out of the apple. > Atari - to look like a Japanese company Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly really liked Japanese culture and Go. Interestingly enough, I've also read somewhere that Steve Jobs got his job at Atari by waltzing into the CEO's office barefoot and refused to leave until he had a job. Jobs wrote the Breakout cartridge for the Atari 2600. starling From marcw at lightside.com Fri May 9 04:26:00 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? Message-ID: <199705091134.EAA25770@covina.lightside.com> > > Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" > > The reason for certain names of companies/items. > > > > Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. > > apple and eating it. (all this up until this point is true) Then > what I've heard is that Jobs wanted to name the company in memory of > Turing's apple, which would explain the bite out of the apple. > I like that one. Good explanation for the bite. > > > Atari - to look like a Japanese company > > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > really liked Japanese culture and Go. > Pulled out the Japanese dictionary and the definition is close. "a hit" or "on target". For awhile I guess they were. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From william at ans.net Fri May 9 11:44:38 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705090819.DAA27909@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <199705091644.AA16581@interlock.ans.net> > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > really liked Japanese culture and Go. I think this is true, as the founder's second company was also named after a Go term. I forget what it is. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Fri May 9 12:38:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705091644.AA16581@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > > really liked Japanese culture and Go. > > I think this is true, as the founder's second company was also named > after a Go term. I forget what it is. I think the rough translation is "Go out of business (again)". Har har. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri May 9 14:43:53 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers Message-ID: Just a quickie.... Have any of you guys ever made your own computers? This is someting I have been thinking of doing but really don't know where to start. It doesn't have to be fancy (something with a 8088 or Z80 or 6502 would be fine) So does anyone have any "plans" to make one? Thanks Les From mhop at snip.net Fri May 9 14:45:31 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <19970509195435135.AAA133@computer-name> > can someone please unsubscribe me? I'm on holliday and can't take the daily > load of this list. > > Frank I don't think anyone can. I think it has to come from your account. Mail to listserv@u.washington.edu From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 01:36:45 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help Message-ID: I have an Osbourne Executive that is in fairly decent shape and for the most part works fine. There's no burn-in on the CRT and both floppies work great, but there seems to be a problem with the power supply or the video system. The system boots fine, but once it has booted, the image on the screen begins to jump or shimmer, and you can hear the fan on the rear of the machine appear to change speeds, as if there was a power fluctuation. I would really like to find out what's wrong with this machine, and repair it if possible, and am hesitant to run it the way it is. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 01:55:17 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >So what's the point? Preserving the machines is good, but it is only >part of the picture. What is the good of preserving a machine if all >of "culture" that surrounds the machine is lost? Agreed, which is why my more common systems, such as the Atari 800 and Vic-20 are fairly filled out with peripherals and such. Take for example my VIC-20..it has the following: VIC-20 boxed, VIC-1541 floppy, VIC-Modem, VIC-1525 printer, C2N Datasette, manuals for the VIC-Modem anad 1541, as well as 9 cartidges and about 6 original cassette tapes of programs, including one tape still in it's packaging. This to me is quite a well rounded system, much like one would find someone using on a daily basis. Unfortunately, for some of my systems, such as the Aquarius, it's not so easy to find the software and such for it. But I definately pay at least as much attention to searching out the add-ons as I do the systems themselves. In fact, at this point, my attention is likely to turn mostly to the add-ons and such, as I've aquired the more common systems I've sought and likely won't be aquring them as a whole as often. >Save those manuals, flyers, ads, boxes, packing foam, and twist-ties. >Save them even if you don't have a machine to go with them. One thing I always noticed about people into antique and classic cars is that a lot of them also search out the advertisements and such for thier favorite marque. It'd certainly be interesting to do such a thing for the computers as well. Too bad I tossed out all of my older magazines years ago. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 02:02:30 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems Message-ID: A week or so ago, I recall seeing a post concerning questions about Kaypro and thier being called by which name. Unfortunately, I didn't respond to it as I wanted at the time, and procrastinated so long that now I can't find the original post! But to put my 2cents worth in, on my Kaypro 2X, it still states it was manufactured by Kaypro Corporation, of Solana Beach, CA. Since the company had yet to change names when the 2X was manufactured, would that indicate that it fell before the Kaypro II in the production cycle? If I recall, the II was labeled as coming from Non-Linear Systems? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 9 17:53:09 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at May 9, 97 11:55:17 am Message-ID: <9705092153.AA20915@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970509/900ca04a/attachment.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 02:40:11 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Well, as long as we're bragging about out systems, >on my PC I have the following hardware: Actually Tim, I wasn't bragging at all. I was just outlining the system to help illustrate the point being made. Most of my posts to this list tend to be questions since I don't have anywhere near the knowledge that you or Sam or many others seem to, since most of my 8bit experience was with the Timex-Sinclair 1000 and a cassette-based TRS-80 Model III. In fact, it was a full 5 years after getting the T/S-1000 in 1982 before I was able to afford a better system, and it ended up being a Tandy 1000HX in 1987. My interest in these systems is from the standpoint that I'm finally getting the chance to fool with ones I kept reading about, but was never able to buy or use. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From mhop at snip.net Fri May 9 17:41:00 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <19970509224337870.AAA181@computer-name> > I don't think anyone can. I think it has to come from your account. Mail to > listserv@u.washington.edu Oops. It's listproc@u.washington.edu I think that is the first time I ever quoted my own message. :) mhop@snip.net From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 9 17:35:32 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Just a quickie.... > Have any of you guys ever made your own computers? > > This is someting I have been thinking of doing but really don't know where > to start. It doesn't have to be fancy (something with a 8088 or Z80 or > 6502 would be fine) So does anyone have any "plans" to make one? > I've been thinking about this as well. I did a some searching last year and came up with a few kits for sale, and a few sites with build your own computer information. Are you planning on building from scratch, from plans, or kit? The kit toward which I am currently leaning is the Southern Cross 1. It is a Z80 based SBC kit. Further information can be found at: http://kitsrus.com/sx.html#sx2 Another project which looks interesting is the "MC68030 Workstation Project". More information at: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/cyliax/ws030%2ehtml Non-online sources of kits are "Circuit Cellar Ink" and "Nuts and Volts" magazines. Both of these contain ads for kits and trainers. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 9 18:53:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at May 9, 97 12:40:11 pm Message-ID: <9705092253.AA30999@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970509/cfd124e7/attachment.ksh From josh at netins.net Fri May 9 19:14:06 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? Message-ID: <199705100013.TAA07128@ins1.netins.net> I have an origional Apple IIC owners guide, under the "Ask Apple" Section, there is a question that says: "How did Apple get it's name?" The answer: (Taken from the Apple IIC book, Apple Presents the Apple IIC, An Interactive Owner's Guide.) "The name Apple Computer was chosen late one afternoon as Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, Apple's founders faced the deadline for filing a Fictitious Name Statement, part of the business licensing procedures. After volleying names back and forth with Wozniak for hours, Jobs looked at the apple he was eating and decided that, unless he or Woz arrived at something better by five o'clock, they would call the company Apple. Five o'clock came and went; Apple was the new company's name." This could be true, or not. Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From transit at primenet.com Fri May 9 20:17:48 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > > > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > > > really liked Japanese culture and Go. > > > > I think this is true, as the founder's second company was also named > > after a Go term. I forget what it is. > > I think the rough translation is "Go out of business (again)". The second company's name was "Sente", and it made a couple of unnoteworthy video games, if I recall correctly. . . From dastar at crl.com Fri May 9 20:09:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, hellige wrote: > >Save those manuals, flyers, ads, boxes, packing foam, and twist-ties. > >Save them even if you don't have a machine to go with them. > > One thing I always noticed about people into antique and classic cars is > that a lot of them also search out the advertisements and such for thier > favorite marque. It'd certainly be interesting to do such a thing for the > computers as well. Too bad I tossed out all of my older magazines years ago. I'd better go check on my collections of Byte, Nibble and Personal Computing. They've been tucked away in my parents' barn for years now. I wonder if the rats go to them yet? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 20:29:38 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo Message-ID: <199705100129.SAA05893@mx5.u.washington.edu> At 06:57 PM 5/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, the incredible rate of obsolesence in computers lets us own >stuff that only a major company or a small government would've been >able to buy 10 years ago. For example, list price on the hardware >in my Personal vaxCluster would've been over half a million dollars >when new. But I've picked it all up at auctions for a couple hundred >dollars. I remember going into the local Radio Shack and drooling over the different TRS-80 models nearly constantly in the period between 1982 and 1987, seeing as those were the systems which I had easiest access too. I wanted a Model 4P quite badly at the time, but I didn't make enough with my job for them to even think about financing me on it. I entered the military in 1983 so didn't make too much. Also, the Model III was the first micro of any type I got to use, since it was what our computer lab in high school (circa 1981-2) used. >On microcomputer prices, here's some prices from the back of an >August 1982 BYTE that I just happen to have on my desk here: >Morrow designs 5 Mbyte hard disk S-100 subsystem $1975 If I remember correctly, didn't IBM originally charge close to $5000 for it's hard disk system for the original PC-XT's? >Tandon TM100-2 5.25" FH DSDD 360K floppy drive $ 325 The Indus-GT floppy for my Atari 800 was another 5-1/4" drive that was in the $300-400 price range. Nifty drive though, and I think I have close to a dozen different DOS's to boot it from. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat May 10 00:03:03 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 8, 97 01:29:11 pm Message-ID: <9705100403.AA14054@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970509/df56f2f5/attachment.ksh From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Sat May 10 09:58:37 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:24 2005 Subject: WTB: Wordstar 3.31 Message-ID: <199705101458.JAA00457@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I am looking for an original set of Wordstar 3.31 (running under DOS) disks with correctstar and mailmerge. I specifically need the printer support for a HP laserjet printer. Please email me with particulars, including price. Thanks. John Ott jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From gpine at popmail.mcs.net Sat May 10 10:25:18 1997 From: gpine at popmail.mcs.net (Gerald D. Pine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help Message-ID: <199705101525.KAA03189@Mailbox.mcs.com> At 11:36 AM 5/9/97 +0500, you wrote: > I have an Osbourne Executive that is in fairly decent shape and for the >most part works fine. There's no burn-in on the CRT and both floppies work >great, but there seems to be a problem with the power supply or the video >system. > > The system boots fine, but once it has booted, the image on the screen >begins to jump or shimmer, and you can hear the fan on the rear of the machine >appear to change speeds, as if there was a power fluctuation. > > I would really like to find out what's wrong with this machine, and repair >it if possible, and am hesitant to run it the way it is. Any help would be >greatly appreciated. Thanks. > Jeff, I had (and still have to some extent) the same problem on my Executive. I managed to mitigate the problem somewhat by replacing the 12 volt muffin fan with a 117 volt fan in order to reduce the load on the power supply. The shimmering was reduced, but not eliminated. Gerald > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of classic home computers: > > Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore > C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive > Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, > TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and > 2600VCS game consoles. > > > > > From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat May 10 12:13:20 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > I've been thinking about this as well. I did a some searching last year > and came up with a few kits for sale, and a few sites with build your > own computer information. Are you planning on building from scratch, > from plans, or kit? > I wanted to build from scratch (i.e with Radio Shack/Jameco/scraps and pieces, etc.) Nothing big, just something small, with maybe a floppy and a serial port for a terminal. > The kit toward which I am currently leaning is the Southern Cross 1. > It is a Z80 based SBC kit. Further information can be found at: > > http://kitsrus.com/sx.html#sx2 > hmmmm, maybe Ill check that one out! Thanks, Les From danjo at xnet.com Sat May 10 14:39:41 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > I've been thinking about this as well. I did a some searching last year > > and came up with a few kits for sale, and a few sites with build your > > own computer information. Are you planning on building from scratch, > > from plans, or kit? > > > > I wanted to build from scratch (i.e with Radio Shack/Jameco/scraps and > pieces, etc.) > > Nothing big, just something small, with maybe a floppy and a serial port > for a terminal. > > > The kit toward which I am currently leaning is the Southern Cross 1. > > It is a Z80 based SBC kit. Further information can be found at: > > > > http://kitsrus.com/sx.html#sx2 > > hmmmm, maybe Ill check that one out! > > Les Hey, so have I! I want to build a 6502 because 1. I already have a KIM and a SYM board 8-) for debugging. 2. I know the 6502 pretty well. 3. I have a 6502 Assembler wtih macro and structure support. 4. I have a 6502 Run/Single step emulator with programmable hardware emulator. 5. It is an extrememly easy processor to interface with. 3 and 4 ain't fast but they do work 8-) on almost everything. I think 5 is the most important. The same can be said for all the old 8-bitters tho. For what you want, I would suggest a 6502, xtal, a couple of resistors and caps, a 6522, 2-32K Static RAM chips and 1-32k EPROM. Since the 6502 is memory mapped IO, you would lose the memory wherever you put the IO page but with a 74688? you could map any single or multiple 256 byte hunks to IO real easy. My original thought was to use the reset line to switch the ROM in and out of memory space so boot up would be to copy ROM to the lower 32k and then recopy it to the upper 32k after the RAM is switched back in. I think this is pretty standard stuff. I have even thought (a little) about using PICs for IO devices and letting them use IIC (I2C) to talk out one serial port to multiple devices. This would be for the serial devices only, I would probably keep the 6522s for parallel stuff (disk drives). Xebec used to make a Hard Drive controller that would talk to any computer with an 8bit parallel device - don't know IDE drives but I remember reading several companies do that for *newer* computers. The problem being raw speed. BC From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 20:55:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I had (and still have to some extent) the same problem on my Executive. I >managed >to mitigate the problem somewhat by replacing the 12 volt muffin fan with a >117 volt >fan in order to reduce the load on the power supply. The shimmering was >reduced, but >not eliminated. Gerald, Then would you say the power supply is getting weak? It looks like the fan in the back is a standard enough part...in fact, there's room there for a larger one, as the one installed isn't even as large as the grill opening. I'll try that though and see what happens. Thanks for the tip. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 21:01:24 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Just a quickie.... >Have any of you guys ever made your own computers? >This is someting I have been thinking of doing but really don't know where >to start. It doesn't have to be fancy (something with a 8088 or Z80 or >6502 would be fine) So does anyone have any "plans" to make one? There was a book published in the early to mid 80's sometime which went into quite exact detail on designing and building an 8bit microcomputer, using the Z80 I believe. Unfortunately, I don't recall the exact name, and my copy of it was lost years ago. I believe it was something like "Building Your Own Microcomputer" and I thought it was a fascinating book. Anyone else recall this book? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Sat May 10 18:12:48 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705102312.SAA03916@fudge.uchicago.edu> jeffh@eleventh.com says, > But to put my 2cents worth in, on my Kaypro 2X, it still states it was > manufactured by Kaypro Corporation, of Solana Beach, CA. Since the company > had yet to change names when the 2X was manufactured, would that indicate that > it fell before the Kaypro II in the production cycle? If I recall, the II was > labeled as coming from Non-Linear Systems? I think you've got the order backwards -- the company started out as Non-Linear Systems and changed their name to Kaypro once the Kaypros started getting popular. eric From starling at umr.edu Sat May 10 18:23:26 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: WTB: Wordstar 3.31 In-Reply-To: <199705101458.JAA00457@mastif.ee.nd.edu> from "John Ott" at May 10, 97 09:58:37 am Message-ID: <199705102323.SAA24649@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > I am looking for an original set of Wordstar 3.31 (running under DOS) disks > with correctstar and mailmerge. I specifically need the printer support for > a HP laserjet printer. > Hey... Somewhere at home in Texas I have an old Wordstar original package & disks. I'll have to check on it when I go home after school is over to see what version it is. I'm MOSTLY sure that it's a DOS version, but for some reason the version number 2 sticks out in my head. I might be wrong, though.... however I do believe that it's on 5.25" floppies. Mail me back in like 2 weeks and remind me to check on this for you. I tend to forget things easily, so a reminder would make sure I checked on this for you... chris starling From gpine at gri.org Sat May 10 19:57:57 1997 From: gpine at gri.org (Gerald D. PIne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help References: Message-ID: <33751995.49A8@gri.org> hellige wrote: > > On 10-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >I had (and still have to some extent) the same problem on my Executive. I > >managed > >to mitigate the problem somewhat by replacing the 12 volt muffin fan with a > >117 volt > >fan in order to reduce the load on the power supply. The shimmering was > >reduced, but > >not eliminated. > > Gerald, > > Then would you say the power supply is getting weak? It looks like the fan > in the back is a standard enough part...in fact, there's room there for a > larger one, as the one installed isn't even as large as the grill opening. > I'll try that though and see what happens. Thanks for the tip. > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of classic home computers: > > Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore > C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive > Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, > TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and > 2600VCS game consoles. Jeff, I think that the design using a 12V fan was just a bad idea. It put a load on the power supply that need not be there. I think that the problem was inherent in the Executive design. Gerald From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat May 10 21:21:42 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific, anyone? Message-ID: <970510222141_1686622792@emout12.mail.aol.com> I thought i'd post about a machine which certainly qualifies to be classic, an ohio scientific challenger C1P of which i know nothing about. i did get some extensive documentation with it including a presale brochure, some photocopied machine language programs, the original reciept dated 20jun1980 for $425, some info about a d&n micro card which i also got, instructions for eprom burner software, basic ref manual, and some highly technical info and board schematics. i also have several cassette tapes of software including an original adventure 0 copyright 1979 for a 24k apple and asteroids also. i also got several boards that i dont know about included. one seems to be a floppy controller and ram card from d&n micro products, two of them say osi model 502 and 527 and some others i cannot tell what they are. they all have circuit traces some missing some sockets and all are mising components so it seems like its part of a kit. anyone know about this model? it seems to be apple ][ compatible, but i havent bothered turning it on yet. heh, would be neat to find a floppy drive for it... david From starling at umr.edu Sat May 10 21:59:03 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific, anyone? In-Reply-To: <970510222141_1686622792@emout12.mail.aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at May 10, 97 10:21:42 pm Message-ID: <199705110259.VAA17195@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Woo-hoo!! I also have some OSI equipment... LOTS of it, in fact. However, it's all in Texas and I'm in Missouri. But the good part is that I also have a lot of documentation (boxes and boxes of it) and lotsa 8" floppies that presumably go to it. However... I have only tried turning on one of the 3 machines (a C4 I think?) and it's floppy drive was hosed. This is a little desktop unit that has keyboard built in and has WOODEN sides. The other two are rackmount machines that are heavy and ugly. I haven't tried turning them on because they required a dumb terminal to see any output on them. My plan is to graduate from College in a year and then after settled in a job (and home with lotsa storage space), start restoring them. And in the process make a web page consisting of all the documentation I have on the beast. However, I'm afraid that in the mean time I can't directly help you very much. I can say, however, with a good deal of certainty that the OSI C1P is _NOT_ Apple II compatable, although it probably does have a 6502 in it. As far as I know, all OSI equipment ran CP/M or a kind of multi-user CP/M. I have an OSI 8-something or another that was built to be a multiuser system (like 2-8 users) with multiple processors (mixed Z80s and 6502s). Mine only has one 6502 in it. Maybe I'll grab some of the OSI documentation when I go home to Texas at in 2 weeks and start the webpage. However, my summer project is to restore my Apple Lisa & document it. Anyone be able to help me on this? :) I guess if you have any specific questions/needs regarding the OSI stuff, I see what I can do... good luck with it! It's a nifty machine. There are a few other OSI owners on the net I've talked to, including a guy somewhere in {Washington|Oregon|California} that uses his C4P Challenger to control lights & stuff at a planetarium. The C4P was a hacker's dream because it had lotsa serial, parallel, outputs plus a "experimenter's port" which was actually like an external connection to the data bus I believe. It also had sound and color graphics that allegedly rivaled the Apple II in its time (perhaps before its time). Like I said... good luck with it! I'll help out as I can, but all my OSI stuff is in Texas. chris starling From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Sat May 10 22:41:37 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: WTB: Wordstar 3.31 In-Reply-To: <199705101458.JAA00457@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, John Ott wrote: > Hello - > > I am looking for an original set of Wordstar 3.31 (running under DOS) disks > with correctstar and mailmerge. I specifically need the printer support for > a HP laserjet printer. > > Please email me with particulars, including price. > > Thanks. > > John Ott > jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu > I could send you a copy my original disks for WordStar, but I don't have my manuals with me, although in a couple of weeks I would be able to make photocopies of them. Whether it would work on your computer I don't know. My version is for a Zenith Z-100, MS-DOS. I don't have correctstar and mailmerge, though. As for supporting the HP Laserjet, you would have to use the generic printer driver or write your own. WS 3.3 came out way before the HP Laserjet. If you need a CP/M version of WS, I could get a copy of that also, but again it would be a couple of weeks. Either way, no charge other than photocopy costs for the manual and postage. Susan From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Sat May 10 22:57:07 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, hellige wrote: > > There was a book published in the early to mid 80's sometime which went > into quite exact detail on designing and building an 8bit microcomputer, using > the Z80 I believe. Unfortunately, I don't recall the exact name, and my copy > of it was lost years ago. I believe it was something like "Building Your Own > Microcomputer" and I thought it was a fascinating book. Anyone else recall > this book? > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.co Yes, I believe it was published by TAD Books although I don't remeber the exact title, either. It was available at my local library. At the time I read it, I think I estimated it would cost about $1,000 altogether to build the computer. It would probably be a lot cheaper today. Seemed like a very good boook. Susan From pcoad at crl.com Sun May 11 00:11:49 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > Yes, I believe it was published by TAD Books although I don't remeber the > exact title, either. It was available at my local library. At the time I > read it, I think I estimated it would cost about $1,000 altogether to > build the computer. It would probably be a lot cheaper today. Seemed > like a very good boook. > > Susan > TAB books published a few on how to build a microcomputer: "How to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" by Charles K. Adams "How To Design, Build & Program your Own Working Computer System" by Rovert P. Haviland. "How To Design, Build & Program your Own _Advanced_ Working Computer System" by Rovert P. Haviland) "The 8088 Project Book" by Robert Grossblatt. ISBN 0-8306-0271-1 The first one describes how to build an 8K 8080 based machine while the second one describes how to build a computer based on the SC/MP chip. (I have not seen this book, but I have a copy of the follow-on book.) There was also a book written by Steve Ciarcia titled "Build Your Own Z-80 Computer". This one has been recommended highly. The last I heard it was still in print. (ISBN 0-07-010962-1). A quick look through the alt.comp.cardware.howmebuilt FAQ produced a few more: - "Z-80 Microcomputer Design Projects" by William Barden Jr. ISBN 0-672-21682-5, published by Howard W. Sams & Co. Inc - "The Z80 Microcomputer Handbook" William Barden, Jr, The A.C.H.H FAQ can be found at: http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~msokos1/home19.faq The Adams book seems like it was a rush job. There are quite a few error and a few omissions in the book which should have been caught by a proof reader. Tangent: Did TAB books just crank out books during the 80s? I haven't been able to find a complete list of TAB books, but they cover the range from "33 Challenging Computer Games for TRS-80/Apple/Pet" (total crap) to "The Handbook of Microcomputer Interfacing" (very good). --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KFergason at aol.com Sun May 11 01:03:58 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers Message-ID: <970511020357_1222408121@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-11 00:09:18 EDT, you write: << Yes, I believe it was published by TAD Books although I don't remeber the exact title, either. It was available at my local library. At the time I read it, I think I estimated it would cost about $1,000 altogether to build the computer. It would probably be a lot cheaper today. Seemed like a very good boook. >> Z-80 Microcomputer Design Projects, William Barden, Jr. $14.95, Howard Sams. published in 1980. describes a <10 chip single board computer. how much was a Z80 in 1980? KiloBaud Klassroom. by Peter Stark. describes a 6802 single board computer. seems like mostly reprints from the magazine column of the same name. 1982 The 8085 Cookbook. Build your own working computer. Tab books. uses the SC/MP. Build your own advanced computer. Tab books. uses the 9900, i believe. The Bugbooks. I can probably dig out several more which describe a single board system. None get into things such as disk drives, not that I recall anyway. Kelly From BigLouS at aol.com Sun May 11 10:20:34 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Help Identify Machine Message-ID: <970511112033_-331947021@emout12.mail.aol.com> While prowling around a new thrift store today I came across what may be a computer or it may be a word processor. It had a keyboard, monitor and two 5 1/4" floppies housed in one unit with the floppies mounted vertically and to the right of the monitor, which I estimate was about 12"". The front of the unit was marked GBV( hope I remembered that correctly ) System 9. Does anyone know what it is? I checked the copy of THE LIST that I have and didn't find it. Thanks, Lou From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun May 11 14:46:01 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... Message-ID: Wow. I didn't intend to buy any computer equipment this weekend but ended up passing a church swap meet with a big sign that list "compters" on it. Later in the day I spotted a pawn shop that had a sign up that said "Collectable PCs - get them while you still can!" Just how much temptation can one resist? Anyway I'll divide this into two groups - stuff I know things about already and stuff I don't have a clue about. Stuff I know about TI/99 Expansion box with disk/memory/rs232 Atari 520ST Commodore 128 (spare) Commodore Cassette (original) Macintosh (M0001) DEC Rainbow 100 Documentation in box DEC Rainbow OS disks Samda Word Processor for DEC Rainbow 25 RX50 disks labelled MICRO/RSTS - I don't knwo what they are but I'm guessing they're not for the Rainbow. I really needed some RX50 disks though. 34 C64/128 disks with programs 18 Apple II disks with programs FORTRAN on disk for the TI99/4A (the first disks I've ever seen for the TI) EagleWriter II for the Eagle Computer 12 Assorted CP/M disks 17 8" TRS-80 Model II disks Set of OS disks for Heath/Zenith Z-100 VisiCalc and a couple other Atari 800 disks Various old PC disks Some power supplies and RF modulators Hardware Maint manual for Novell Netware/68 (includes info and schematics for almost all early novell hardware!) Stuff I don't know about IBM 6360 dual 8" floppy system (for what?) TRS-80 TRP-100 printer TRS-80 Color Graphics Printer Commodore DPS-1101 Printer Alphacom VP-42 Printer (for VIC-20 only it says) NEC PC8801A (no keybd, disk drives) Excelerator Plus Disk Drive (looks like for commodore serial bus) MicroSci Disk Drive (Disk II clone, right?) Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) TRS-80 RAM module (looks like the T-S RAM module) It was a fun weekend (glad I drive a van!) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From ekman at lysator.liu.se Sun May 11 15:01:41 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705080702.AAA08514@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Captain Napalm wrote thus: > Now, to turn this back to an on-topic thread, the microcomputer used in > "War Games" was one of the last IMSAI's if I recall correctly. And does > anyone know what computers where used for the graphics in "Tron" and "The > Last Starfighter"? Tron was animated by hand. No computers were used, except where you actually see them on the screen. Since I am writing, I thought I might contribute this little piece to the thread: I watched a German soap opera about ten years ago. It was about some hospital and they had a computer, for storing the patient records, I assume. It was a C64, which would not have been impossible at the time, only someone obviously thought it didn't look cool enough just sitting there by itself, so they built it into a wooden panel and added some flashing lights and buttons. /Fredrik From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat May 10 17:03:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: Bill, That's quite a haul you made this weekend. I've never been lucky enough to come across so much at once. Normally it's a couple of items at the most. >Macintosh (M0001) Lucky you! >FORTRAN on disk for the TI99/4A (the first disks I've ever seen for > the TI) I've got a bunch of disks for the TI that I was sent, though they tend to be GROMs saved to disk. >Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) > (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) Normally, the 16k RAM pack says what it is on it, though I guess a RAM module from a third party might not. The T/S-1000 RAM pack was about 3" wide x 3" high x 1-1/2" deep. I've seen third party RAM packs up to 64k, but they tended to be the full width of the computer. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun May 11 16:49:33 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: BYTE (was: Re: PET to S100 bus interface) In-Reply-To: <199705062028.QAA24968@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Doug Spence once stated: > > > > BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on > > Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I > > don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then > > my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ > > Maybe. But be wary of getting a complete collection though. While I > haven't read a Byte magazine in several years, (since the early 90s), those > that I have seen I tend to group into three catagories: > > > 1. Hobby Era (start of publication to late 83/early 84) This would be the era I'd be interested in. Thanks for pointing that out. The one really good one I have is from this era (November, 1982). BTW, for the person that was interested in the Victor 9000, there's a review of that machine in the above-mentioned issue, and an interview with Chuck Peddle. > 2. Journal Era (early 84 to late 87/early 88) This might also be interesting, but not terribly useful for my purposes. I don't think I'd bother with this era. > 3. PC Rag Era (early 88 through the 90s) Yuck. > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the > cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. Who do I have to kill for a copy of that issue? ;) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun May 11 17:11:16 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507082204.00a5c8b0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: How did you know about that? (I had just finished exams and was still groggy. Three exams in three days. :/ ) > >Actually, I believe the quote you had in your other post said the 4116 was > >16k bits... which would make my board 64K, which is too big without some > >kind of bank switching scheme, isn't it? > > Ummmm... methinks your math might be a bit off. 16Kbits would be 2K bytes, > so you'd have to have 32 chips on the board to get it to 64Kbytes... how > many chips are there on the board? Yup, you're absolutely right. (Duh!) There are 16 chips on the board. So that should put my PET 2001 up to 40K (8+32=40, right? ;) ) if I ever get the board working. > Hope this helps, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun May 11 17:21:41 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Jay Miner, Sinclair (was Re: yo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, hellige wrote: [About Jay Miner] > No, he didn't influence a whole 'generation' of computer hobbyist the way > CP/M did and such, but he certainly did some interesting things with the > hardware! Unfortunately, another computer great that has since passed away. Shortly after Commodore 'passed on' IIRC. July 1994? Astronomy magazine prints these calendars on which important discoveries, launches and the like are printed. I wonder if anyone would buy a similar thing with important computer dates on it. > Sir Clive Sinclair on the other hand gave us the Sinclair series, so he > couldn't be all bad. Oddly enough, the only Sinclair machines I've ever seen have been in pieces. The ZX81 was the first computer I wanted to buy, though... because it was the only computer I could AFFORD to buy, and my brother's PET was soooo cool that I needed to have a computer of my own. Never did get that ZX81. Ended up talking my father into an Apple ][+ clone instead. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun May 11 21:21:37 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Stuff I found, BYTE, collecting, TRON info, Ohio Scientific, etc. Message-ID: <33767EB2.2F57@goldrush.com> Serves me right for not keeping on top of the list now I have to scan back a few issues and reply to stuff.. :/ But first off I'll add to the 'what I got' discussion: 2 more Atari 800s (folks must be really unloading them, these were $6.00, nut it was Sat, so 1/2 price) both seem to work, GTIA and 48k, no carts in the cart slots though, and (sigh) no power suppllies to be found either. Another place, nine Atari cartridges (no computers to be seen at the store though), all 25 cents each except for the Star Trek S.O.S. which was 45 cents (Not really enthused about it even on the Atari.) But I did get Star Raiders, (yea!) I played the game only once or twice umpteen years back, and it still holds the appeal. Others are Computer Chess, Atari Basic (Rev A), Missile Command (was really impressed by the translation to 8-bit on this), Super Breakout (now, where are all my paddle controllers...), Pac Man, Space Invaders, and Centipede. Makes time fly faster when you don't have a disk drive running (or disks). Been passing up an Exidy Sorceror (checking the net it seems information on it is pretty hard to come by.) $5.00, seems to have been modified with a different power supply (that sticks out the back and has a rather agressive looking heat sink (no to mention the 2" stilts added to the bottom of it) Just saw five Channel F Games ($2.00 each), bowling, target shoot, some breakout clone, card game, and something else that escapes memory, all in original boxes. If those of you are TRULY interested in paying cost plus shipping for any of this stuff, I'll get them next go-around if they are still here. -- Now back to previous messages: > From: Doug Spence > Subject: Re: PET to S100 bus interface > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: >> fyi, on p. 272 of November '79 Byte: a company called AB Computers offered >> a device called "BETSI", described as a "PET to S-100 Interface & >> Motherboard". cost was $119.... > Thanks for the info! I guess it was a fairly common type of device, then. > I wonder if there are also IBM-PC to S100 interfaces? I think advertising was cheaper then, cause there was alot of goodies that were advertised and I haven't seen all too much of it. ----- From: Captain Napalm Subject: Re: BYTE Magazines > While I haven't read a Byte magazine in several years, (since the early 90s), > those that I have seen I tend to group into three catagories: > 1. Hobby Era (start of publication to late 83/early 84) These are the best ones, back then BYTE called themselves 'The Small Systems Journal' and everything was worth writing about. > 2. Journal Era (early 84 to late 87/early 88) Trying to be a programmer's/EE resource it seemed to me... Kinda forgot the hobbiests. started to cater to the IBM clone market. > 3. PC Rag Era (early 88 through the 90s) Saw one just the other day, they now have under BYTE: "The Global Authority of Computer Technology" They had their heyday as 'fat IBM magazine,' and are now struggling for an identity again. > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the >cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library at the >university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read 8-). >The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, then 1985 >then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. I have a handfull from the 70s, (maybe back to 75 or 76?) a few from the early 80s and avoided it once they dropped 8-bit information. ---- On starting a newsgroup: Sounds great to me, It would be alot easier to reply to the posts I am replying to, we (Diane and I) get alot of mail as it is and I don't really want to un-digest the list. ---- On Sun, 4 May 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > I also have begun focusing on the accessories, especially if they are > mint or near it. To me a good user's manual, or a batch of original > software that is still usable is every bit as desirable as a fine old > machine. Mint? I myself collect to use the machines, I try to keep my books in decent shape but they are not even close to mint condition, nor do I consider the condition of something I buy for my collection, as long as it works, it provides information, or is interesting enough to warrant the cost and space it will take up, I'll buy it. Software and Books are a very important part of my collection, they take the computer beyond 'display peice' to actual usability and for me enjoyability. ----- From: Paul E Coad Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo > So what's the point? Preserving the machines is good, but it is only > part of the picture. What is the good of preserving a machine if all > of "culture" that surrounds the machine is lost? So true, my collection is from late 70s through 80s and I try to get a variety of stuff associated with it, fortunately I have disovered old cataloga, price lists and ads beyond the ones in the magazines, and at times I get lucky to find more in the stuff that I get/buy. (a recent quest has been for a good copy of the Pac Man Fever LP, finally got a scratched one...) I would love to get video recordings of the Commodore VIC-20 and 64 commercials (Eveybody now, "I adore my 64, my Commodore 64!") ----- TRON & Last Starfighter... Imaging systems. Being a TRON & Last Starfighter fan, Lemme check my resources... TRON effects were done by different groups, the most notable being MAGI (Mathimatical Applications Group, Inc.) who had just recently created the ray-tracing technique (called SythaVision at the time) for visualizing objects. The other was Triple III. MAGI (ray-tracing) was responsible for the effects up to the Solar sailer, after that it was Triple I (traditional polygon 3-d) who had most of the work for the sailer, MCP, etc. Alot of the work was done on the MAGI computers (in New York) via a Chomatics 9000 terminal. (Well CineFex didn't shed light on the computers themselves...) Ahh my TRON Collector's Edition Book has computers listed! MAGI used a Perkin Elmer System 3420 Computer which features 2 MB RAM and 2 80 MB hard drives and talks to a Celco CFR 4000 computer which is used to generate the pictures onto a monitor (I am quoting here, sounds strange) Triple I uses a Foonley F-I for handling the frame-by frame calculations and the pictures are generated on a PFR recorder... Last Starfighter: Done by Digital Productions which had use of a Cray 1/S and a Cray X-MP Encoding of the gunstars, wire frame previewing and such were on a VAX 11/782. When final animation was generated the Cray X-MP did the job as the VAX could only generate one frame in 16 hours and the Cray could crank one out in 2.5 minutes. The film contained 36,000 frames of imagery. ------- (RE: Patriot Games Effects) > Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off > of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. If I Delete files from someones shared hard drive on a Mac network they'll see the folders and icons dissapear. ------ > Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high > it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. Alot of companies deal in product placement (Apple especially) where they are more than happy to loan (or even pay to loan) a movie company some equipment for the background and/or prop in a film. The more their computers are seen being somewhere, or even better, being used the better for sales! Ever see the movie Cloak and Dagger? Atari had quite a product placement hand in that one! If only I had known it was so rare, about a year ago I came across a ][c with the LCD at a thrift store... I can't remember the price though, but usually the stuff they sell is reasonable. ------ From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com Subject: Ohio Scientific, anyone? > I thought i'd post about a machine which certainly qualifies to be classic, > an ohio scientific challenger C1P of which i know nothing about. i did get > some extensive documentation with it including a presale brochure, some > photocopied machine language programs, the original reciept dated 20jun1980 > for $425, some info about a d&n micro card which i also got, instructions for > eprom burner software, basic ref manual, and some highly technical info and > board schematics. My brother had an interest in getting a Challenger (no money though), as I remember, there is the Challenger 1P, 2P, 4P, and 8P (8P being big boxes, the rest are within the keyboard enclosure). My brother was interested in the features of the 4P (Of which I can hardly recall, except the graphics set was kinda neat.). ------ Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 01:15:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > 25 RX50 disks labelled MICRO/RSTS - I don't knwo what they are > but I'm guessing they're not for the Rainbow. I really needed > some RX50 disks though. RSTS is a time sharing system that ran on, hmmm, I forget. I think some DEC mini. I've used it in the real world a couple times. > Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) > (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) I was leafing through some copies of Creative Computing I had today and just happened to see an add that was hawking memory modules, printer interfaces and graphics enhancement plug-ins for the TS/1000. That's probably what this is. Is it called the Memo...something? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 01:28:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Stuff I found, BYTE, collecting, TRON info, Ohio Scientific, etc. In-Reply-To: <33767EB2.2F57@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > (RE: Patriot Games Effects) > > Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off > > of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. > > If I Delete files from someones shared hard drive on a Mac network > they'll see the folders and icons dissapear. I was referring to the actual file contents. IE. Harrison was actually viewing the file and then all of a sudden it was replaced with a "FILE DELETED" window. This just doesn't happen. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 01:36:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines Message-ID: Well, I was too busy with other stuff and unfortunately couldn't attend a real good swap meet this weekend, but I did re-discover a cache of magazines in my parents' barn. I found out I had an entire run of Creative Computing, I have almost the complete run of A+ (including the first issue...this is an Apple ][ mag), a (I think) complete run of Incider (another Apple ][ rag), a few issues of byte from 1981 (the SmallTalk issue) and 1984, a couple issues of Family Computing from 1984, an issue of SoftTalk, and some other miscellany. This stuff is as good as gold! Creative Computing is a total blast going through all the ads. The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering today. I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Mon May 12 02:40:12 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > today. I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be > this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers > or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the > thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! > Viva la 70s and 80s! That said, I can think of one or two machines produced during the 90's which may eventually be collectable: the BeBox, original Newton Message Pad, Eo machines, SPARCstation Voyager, and possibly a few pocket/palmtop machines. Being a bit of a Sun-weenie, I might also add Sun 4/110. Most of the above machines had fairly small production runs, and had a certain cool factor to them. Not all machines produced during the 90's have been boring beige boxes. Some innovative and interesting machines have been produced. Add an unupgraded Pilot 1000 to the list. Most people don't want interesting computers, they want machines which help them do something. The difference between the people on this list and nearly everyone else is that we LIKE computers. We think they are more than just a tool needed to accomplish as task or to provide an occasional diversion. We can make computers do things other than run prepackaged software. We know that computers are FUN. We value what is different and unique about the old machines. Compatibility is good for business, but it sure is boring. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gram at cnct.com Mon May 12 07:33:11 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: <9705092253.AA30999@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > On microcomputer prices, here's some prices from the back of an > August 1982 BYTE that I just happen to have on my desk here: > > Compupro M-Drive (S-100) with 256Kbytes of RAM: $2795 > Compupro Disk 1 (S-100) floppy controller: $ 555 > Morrow designs 5 Mbyte hard disk S-100 subsystem $1975 > Box of 10 Dysan DSDD 5.25" floppy diskettes $ 60 > Tandon TM100-2 5.25" FH DSDD 360K floppy drive $ 325 > Shugart SA851 8" DSDD 1.2Mbyte floppy drive $ 555 > Epson MX-80 dot-matrix printer $ 500 Hmm. Looking at those prices, that must have been an ad from a discount house. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From zmerch at northernway.net Mon May 12 07:42:15 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512084215.0095cd80@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: [snip] >I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic >computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I >can't think of anything else right off hand. Speak for yourself, buckshot! ;^> I can think of one *very collectible* system that was produced into the 90's: Try a Tandy Color Computer 3. They were produced into 1991/92, if memory serves. Yes, an 8-bit machine that actually had viability (and profitability) into the 90's! BTW, the CoCo series has the distinction of having the longest production time of any 8-bit system, and I think of any non IBM/Mac system. Anyway, that's just my $0.000002 (and that's all it's worth!) ;-) Thanks, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From gram at cnct.com Mon May 12 08:23:33 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > TAB books published a few on how to build a microcomputer: > "How to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" by Charles K. Adams > The Adams book seems like it was a rush job. There are quite a few > error and a few omissions in the book which should have been caught > by a proof reader. > Did TAB books just crank out books during the 80s? I haven't been able > to find a complete list of TAB books, but they cover the range from "33 > Challenging Computer Games for TRS-80/Apple/Pet" (total crap) to "The > Handbook of Microcomputer Interfacing" (very good). While I never got into the hardware books from TAB, I tried a number of their programming books on BASIC and Pascal. The line was typoed to hell and back -- nothing worked without extensive editing. I've got OCR software that reads handprinted text with more accuracy than TAB ever published. The biggest tragedy is that they got Radio Shack to resell some of their atrocities -- and I'm the guy who did customer support answering questions about why nothing worked. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Mon May 12 08:31:04 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Samda Word Processor for DEC Rainbow Ancestor to Ami Pro. I first used it with Unix, found a DOS copy out by some trash cans in Manhattan a couple of years ago, complete with keyboard overlays and everything. DOS version works fine with Linux DOS emulator. > 17 8" TRS-80 Model II disks Any indication as to what's on them? > TRS-80 TRP-100 printer I can't recall that one clearly, but I think it used thermal paper? > TRS-80 Color Graphics Printer Which one? The little one that used roll paper (CGP-115) or the flatbed CGP-215? > TRS-80 RAM module (looks like the T-S RAM module) That's be for the MC-10 Micro Color Computer. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon May 12 09:44:51 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 11 May 1997 23:15:35 PDT." Message-ID: <199705121444.JAA21975@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Adding to Sam Ismail saying: >On Sun, 11 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > >> 25 RX50 disks labelled MICRO/RSTS - I don't knwo what they are >> but I'm guessing they're not for the Rainbow. I really needed >> some RX50 disks though. > >RSTS is a time sharing system that ran on, hmmm, I forget. I think some >DEC mini. I've used it in the real world a couple times. As far as I know RSTS was never ported to anything except the PDP-11 at least not a port that was marketed. My guess is that these are for one of the DEC PRO machines. These machines had the small LSI-11 implementation. At any rate, you're right, they're not for the Rainbow. If you want to unload them and don't find anyone else who wants them, I might be interested. The only reason I'm not more interetsed is that none of my LSI-11s have floppy drives and I don't really feel like going to the trouble of duplicating a PRO. On the other hand, if I ever come across a PRO, it'd be nice to have an OS for it. If I were you, I'd check the vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11 newsgroups. You can probably find someone there who could make use of it. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon May 12 11:22:06 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: <199705121444.JAA21975@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> from "Brian L. Stuart" at May 12, 97 09:44:51 am Message-ID: <9705121522.AA24020@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1806 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970512/f714707d/attachment.ksh From transit at primenet.com Mon May 12 11:07:48 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > today. The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting programs to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? Probably not. Of course, the computers couldn't read each other's tapes (disks were out of the question for most of us anyway) . . . From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon May 12 17:27:05 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: ; from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 12, 97 9:07 am Message-ID: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting > programs > to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time > in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on > my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? > Probably not. > > Of course, the computers couldn't read each other's tapes (disks were > out of the question for most of us anyway) . . . Does anyone else remember a Dutch thing called 'Basicode-2' ? This was an attempt at making universal basic programs for all the popular home computers of the time (early 1980's). It was in 2 parts : 1) A common cassette format - the basic source would be stored in ASCII, using Kansas City tones at 1200 baud. You would load a translator program into your machine (some machines, like the TRS-80 model 1, needed a little hardware add-on as well), and then load the Basicode program. I designed a piece of hardware to translate Basicode tapes into RS232 data, which meant I could load them into machines without a cassette interface... 2) The machine-specific commands (Clearing the screen might be CLS, HOME, PRINT "", etc) were replaced by basic subroutines. I think GOSUB 100 was clear screen, GOSUB 110 was position cursor at X,Y (basic variables X and Y), etc. Again, you loaded a package of subroutines (which were often included with the tape reading program) before loading the program. I think your program began at line 1000. Of course many things (sound, hi-res graphics, etc) were impossible, but the system did work to some extent. Programs were transmitted on broadcast-band radio (the BBC radio 4 station transmitted them in the middle of the night as something called the 'chip shop takeaway service' (!) - the 'chip shop' was a radio programme that covered home computing at that time). You recorded these programs off-air using a normal tape recorder and played them back into your machine after loading the translator tape. At one time you could buy a cassette with translators for all the common machines on one side, and a set of demonstration programs on the other. I think I still have mine somewhere... > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 11:53:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > > today. > > The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting > programs > to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time > in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on > my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? > Probably not. But wouldn't you agree that all the frustration you went through back then is what enables you to write good code today? The diversity back then was at least conducive to creativity. You were always challenged. If you got bored, there was always some other system out there to conquer. These days its trying to figure out what IRQ and base address you should use, and some of that is handled for you anyway. What fun is that? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 11:46:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512084215.0095cd80@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > >computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > >can't think of anything else right off hand. > > Speak for yourself, buckshot! ;^> > > I can think of one *very collectible* system that was produced into the > 90's: Try a Tandy Color Computer 3. They were produced into 1991/92, if > memory serves. Yes, an 8-bit machine that actually had viability (and > profitability) into the 90's! I'm talking 90s born, bred, and dead. The CoCo3 was born and bred in the 80s. What system conceived in the 90s will likely become a classic? I think Paul was definitely on track about the PalmTops (Newton, Pilot, Psion, etc). Those are really cool machines. I have a Psion 3a that is broken (just needs some repair work and it will be fine) that I was planning on trading in for a 3c. Just now I thought back to when I had my Aquarius with all the goodies and sold that and my Atari 2600 to trade up to my first Apple ][+. I then realized how much I regretted that decision, even to today. Does history repeat itself? Hmmm...guess it depends on how much money I have when it comes time to make a decision on the 3c. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 12 12:06:46 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512084215.0095cd80@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > BTW, the CoCo series has the distinction of having the longest production > time of any 8-bit system, and I think of any non IBM/Mac system. > I thought the C64 had that distinction (along with most units produced for any one type which was estimated to be around 10 million). Of course, if we're talking about the CoCo *series*, well then... BTW, it's not as "new" as it used to be, but I always liked to flip over my 64C when my PeeCee buddies used to say "where you'd get THAT old piece of junk." and show them the little sticker that said (c) Commodore 1992 Les From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 11:57:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Of course many things (sound, hi-res graphics, etc) were impossible, but > the system did work to some extent. Programs were transmitted on > broadcast-band radio (the BBC radio 4 station transmitted them in the > middle of the night as something called the 'chip shop takeaway service' > (!) - the 'chip shop' was a radio programme that covered home computing at > that time). You recorded these programs off-air using a normal tape > recorder and played them back into your machine after loading the > translator tape. I must say quite bluntly, that's fucken cool. That is unadulterated, undisputable, irrepressible coolness to the nth degree. Wide-band, mass software distribution. There's something you won't see today. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 12 12:19:32 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I'm talking 90s born, bred, and dead. The CoCo3 was born and bred in the > 80s. What system conceived in the 90s will likely become a classic? I How about an Amiga 4000? (Desktop model of course) I know they still sorta teknik'ly maybe make these things but mabe in 10 years or so? A little plain looking but just maybe... Les From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 12:27:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: magazine collection and heath-kit 89 Message-ID: When I was at my parents' house, I also went to visit my old-timer neighbor. My parents told me he wanted to talk to me about getting a new computer. He has one of the first 1000 HeathKit H89 systems to come off the assembly line. I remember going to his house back in 1988 a couple times to trade programming tips with him and playing with it. He built it himself. It's in cherry condition, with the original Heathkit covers for both the computer and the heathkit printer. I gave him advice on buying a new system and offered to buy his Heathkit from him, but I don't think he's ready to sell it yet. Before I left I emphasized that when he's ready to part with it to call me. I'm looking through this old issue of Popular Computing (I also found a good run of this magazine). This issue is September 1983. These things are awesome. Let's take a look at this one... The cover story is "Demystifying Computer Languages" and has a column each for APL, BASIC, C, COBOL, FORTH, FORTRAN, LISP, Modula-2, Pascal, PROLOG and Smalltalk. You see, that's another thing that was great about the 80s...not only did you have diversity of systems, but you had a viable diversity of languages. Sure you could argue that today, but let's face it, this is a C dominated world. Hmm, cool, there's a hacking article, "Profile of a Computer Abuser". And some way cool Do-itYourself article on how to build a $4 printer stand. Let's see, there's the standard Elephant Memory Systems disk ad (remember those? Always with a yellow backdrop, a lot of times on the back of the mag). Anyway, here's an ad for a Percom Data disk drive for the T-99/4a for $499. So whoever found that TI-99/4a disk in the thrift shop, keep looking for the Percom Data disk drive. Here's the basic IBM ad with the lame Charlie Chaplan impersonator. Ok cool, a big price page for a company called computer mail order (how generic). Timex Sinclair 1000, $39.95; Commodore 64, $239; Pet 64, $569; Sanyo MBC-555, $795; Eagle IIE-1, $1,369; and on the CMO top 100, we have Choplifter at #1 for the Apple, WordPro64 for the C64 and Donkey Kong for the Atari. Moving on, we have an add for Fontrix (a cool Apple ][ page designing program), an ad for Commodore 64 that compares its under $600 price to the $1395 Apple, the $999 TRS-80 III and the $1355 IBM PC. Wow. A 2-page ad spread for the Apple ///. Dum de dum, hey an ad for the HP-86 personal computer. I don't think I've ever seen one of these...its like an Apple in design, with the keyboard and CPU all one unit. I never knew HP made such a beast. I'll have to find me one of those. (are we bored yet?) Oh, here's a good one: an ad for a C64 that says "More power than Apple ][ at half the price" (what a joke) and for the VIC-20 that says "a real computer at the price of a toy" (they got the toy part right). I betray my thinly veiled Apple ][ bias. Moving on, here's a funky user definable keyboard called the keywiz VIP (and in parenthesis it says Very Intelligent Peripheral) made by a company called Creative Computer Peripherals. I guess you can assign a keyword to each key and it was compatible with the Apple and TRS-80. Then an ad for the TI Compact Computer. It shows a typically preppy 80s type dude sitting at a desk (presumably in a library) with a typically preppy 80s type chick sitting on the other side and the ad copy says "20 pages of notes, a thesis, algebraic forumlas. Can you make a date at eight?" The guy in the ad has one finger on a key on the computer which has a disk drive attached, and one holding a pen as he writes down notes on a yellow legal pad. Brilliant. I'll take two. Ok, here's an add from Wisconsin Discount Sales, showing a Panasonic 32K for $249, an Atari 800XL with, instead of a price, the word "NEW" in a blast bubble. Here's something funny. In caption from the article on Prolog, it says "Japanese researchers have chosen PROLOG as the standard language for their fifth-generation computer project. If the project succeeds, it's very likely that we'll all be programming in PROLOG by 1995!" I guess we all know the outcome of that particular project. Anyway, then there's a review of the Radio Shack PC-4 "programmable calculator" and the Casio FX-700P pocket computer. Hey, a ComputerLand ad. They are now back in business as Vanguard by the way. Blah, blah, blah. More ads. Blah. And that's pretty much it. I hope you enjoyed this tour of the September 1983 issue of Popular Computing. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From spc at armigeron.com Mon May 12 13:26:00 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 11, 97 11:36:15 pm Message-ID: <199705121826.OAA09612@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be > this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers > or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the > thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! Don't be too sure about that. There will be some - The Amigas after Commodore died. The BeBox. Certain workstations. Also, don't forget PDAs, which came unto their own this decade (like the Newton, Zeus, Pilot, etc). -spc (It's just that they'll be lost amid all the PC noise ... ) From william at ans.net Mon May 12 13:55:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <199705121826.OAA09612@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199705121855.AA18946@interlock.ans.net> > I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be > this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers > or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the > thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! I think a collection of Unix workstations would be mighty fine - Suns, SGIs, NeXTs, etc.. I also think a collection of laptops (yes, PC) would also be very nice. In other words, if the items show sparks of creativity and/or clever engineering, a nice collection can be made. People said that transistor radios would never be collectable - now there is a huge following. The same will happen with the equipment from the 1990s. William Donzelli william@ans.net From eifs at thenet.co.uk Mon May 12 09:23:24 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam Ismail writes >I was leafing through some copies of Creative Computing I had today and >just happened to see an add that was hawking memory modules, printer >interfaces and graphics enhancement plug-ins for the TS/1000. That's >probably what this is. Is it called the Memo...something? Was it Memotech? they made all sorts of addons for the ZX81, hi-res graphics cards, serial and parallel ports and RAM expansion up to, as far as I can remember, 1Meg!!! BTW, is anyone interested in swapping any UK Sinclair stuff for a TS1000 or TS2068. I'd love to get either of these! -- Eifs From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun May 11 04:59:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting >programs >to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time >in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on >my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? >Probably not. I had a book about 1986 or so that crossreferenced the Basic commands of the popular home computers of the period, such as the Apple II, Commodore's, and the various TRS-80's. It was pretty interesting. I saw mention of a similar book being worked on now that was even greater in scope than this one. It is called something like 'Basref' or some such. I found a web page for it on the Web. That book certainly made the conversion of programs much easier though, even if you did at times need 4-5 statements on one machine to mimic something done on another. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun May 11 05:34:14 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Was it Memotech? they made all sorts of addons for the ZX81, hi-res >graphics cards, serial and parallel ports and RAM expansion up to, as >far as I can remember, 1Meg!!! BTW, is anyone interested in swapping any >UK Sinclair stuff for a TS1000 or TS2068. I'd love to get either of >these! I have a number of catalogs from Gladstone Electronics which show Memotech products, though none that offer memory expansion that large. They did offer some impressive add-ons for the Timex-Sinclair though! One of the more interesting things they list for Memotech is a real keyboard that plugs into the expansion port, but doesn't inhibit it's use for other addons. Real typewriter keys with atuo-repeat and it was buffered. It lists for $99.95. Your offer for trade for UK stuff makes me wish I had picked up an extra TS1000 a few months ago when I had the chance. I'd love to get my hands on some of the things that are common in the UK but rarely seen over here. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From visimp at junction.net Mon May 12 19:06:43 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <19970512.160643.01@junction.net> In message <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> you wrote: > Does anyone else remember a Dutch thing called 'Basicode-2' ? This was an > attempt at making universal basic programs for all the popular home > computers of the time (early 1980's). It was in 2 parts : Reach down to my right ankle and the old filing cabinet and there is my Basicocde2 cassette and manual. It was designed to oeprate the same program on Apple II and IIe's, BBC Model A and B, Commodore 64, Pet and Vic 20, Sharp MZ80A, Sinclair ZX81, Tandy TRS-80 and Video Genie. The BBC in the UK would broadcast programs over Radio-4 and Basicode would allow everyone to use them. Quite the idea. The cassette I have has the translator programs for all the above computers and several games on the reverse side. Yes, those were the days of creative computing. -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only 200 Mhz StrongARM in ARMstrong From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Mon May 12 20:14:07 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: TO: susan m. johnson Message-ID: <199705130114.UAA00243@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Thanks for the reply on wordstar. What is your email address? You forgot to include your email address in your message. I don't want to waste everyone time on wordstar. John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon May 12 20:21:22 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That's quite a haul you made this weekend. I've never been lucky enough to > come across so much at once. Normally it's a couple of items at the most. Same here - I should decide not to buy any computers more often! > >Macintosh (M0001) > > Lucky you! Not so lucky - doesn't work. Turn it on and it clicks twice and whines like its gonna blow a cap. Next weekend's project I guess... > I've got a bunch of disks for the TI that I was sent, though they tend to > be GROMs saved to disk. I was sure they were out there as the expansion boxes all had disk drives (I think) but I've never even seen an ad for commercially produced disk software for the TI. > >Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) > > (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) > > Normally, the 16k RAM pack says what it is on it, though I guess a RAM > module from a third party might not. The T/S-1000 RAM pack was about 3" wide > x 3" high x 1-1/2" deep. I've seen third party RAM packs up to 64k, but they > tended to be the full width of the computer. The sticker has been ripped off but there is a number imprinted inside that says 1016. I'm guessing that might be the model number for a 16k module for the T/S 1000? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon May 12 21:06:16 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: What a weekend... Message-ID: <01IISO71O4J68Y6IP7@AC.GRIN.EDU> > The sticker has been ripped off but there is a number imprinted inside > that says 1016. I'm guessing that might be the model number for a 16k > module for the T/S 1000? That, at least, I can confirm. Just got one today. -- Ben Coakley CBEL: Xavier coakley@ac.grin.edu It's hard to find the words to say you don't give a damn - Freakwater Classic games and a zine at http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley From BigLouS at aol.com Mon May 12 21:42:33 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers Message-ID: <970512224039_-331784566@emout12.mail.aol.com> Didn't Steve Ciarcia put out a book in the early eighties on building a Z80 based system? I seem to recall using it as a reference when I was soldering together my Xerox 820 motherboard. Unfortunately I purged my Z80 6502 book collection years ago. :-( Lou P.S. It wasn't the MicroMint machine, that was later on. From transit at primenet.com Mon May 12 21:51:26 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:25 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > Of course many things (sound, hi-res graphics, etc) were impossible, but > > the system did work to some extent. Programs were transmitted on > > broadcast-band radio (the BBC radio 4 station transmitted them in the > > middle of the night as something called the 'chip shop takeaway service' > > (!) - the 'chip shop' was a radio programme that covered home computing at > > that time). You recorded these programs off-air using a normal tape > > recorder and played them back into your machine after loading the > > translator tape. > > I must say quite bluntly, that's fucken cool. That is unadulterated, > undisputable, irrepressible coolness to the nth degree. Wide-band, mass > software distribution. There's something you won't see today. I remember Radio Nederlands trying to broadcast computer tapes over shortwave radio back in late 1981. They did programs fro TRS 80's, Commodore Pet's and Atari 400/800. I remember that the experiment was a mixed success, with several TRS-80 users, a few Commodore users, and only one Atari 800 user succesfully recording the program off-air, and loading it into their computer. From transit at primenet.com Mon May 12 22:02:03 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > > > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > > > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > > > today. > > > > The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting > > programs > > to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time > > in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on > > my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? > > Probably not. > > But wouldn't you agree that all the frustration you went through back > then is what enables you to write good code today? Perhaps, although I do very little coding nowadays (oh, a few C programs on Unix, and some Perl/CGI, and I'm learning C on the Mac) > The diversity back > then was at least conducive to creativity. You were always challenged. > If you got bored, there was always some other system out there to conquer. One other thing about the old days that I don't miss so much is the fanatical commitment to one system. Of course, nowadays, you can get just about any of these old systems for around $10, but back in the old days, when these systems (yes, even a VIC) cost $300 and up, the Apple vs TRS80 vs Commodore vs. IBM vs Mac vs Amiga vs Atari discussions approached the intensity of jihads! And of course, some systems were much better provided for than others. If you had an Apple II, a TRS-80, or (later on) a Commodore 64, you were pretty much all taken care of in terms of software. Users of Lesser-known systems like the TRS-80 Color Computer, or the TI-99/4, had to fight to find any decent software outside of what Radio Shack/TI wanted to provide for them. (The CoCo had it a little better, since its architecture was somewha better known) By the late 80's and early 90's, it was pretty much IBM, IBM, IBM and its clones all over the place, with Mac in second place and the Amiga in distant third (This was in the US--I understand that things were quite different in Europe and the rest of the world) > These days its trying to figure out what IRQ and base address you should > use, and some of that is handled for you anyway. What fun is that? There's always assembler language programming (almost a sine qua non for emulator development :-) > From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 12 22:46:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: movie computers Message-ID: I hope this isn't repeating a post as I accidently lost a few of the threads to this subject... ANYWAYS... I just re-watched "Electric Dreams." In it, the computer (Edgar) cmoes to life blah blah blah... Anyone know what kind of computer he/it was? The credits list Kaypro as a contributor... Les From dastar at crl.com Tue May 13 00:44:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: movie computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > I just re-watched "Electric Dreams." > In it, the computer (Edgar) cmoes to life blah blah blah... > Anyone know what kind of computer he/it was? The credits list > Kaypro as a contributor... Isn't that the one with that chick who plays the oboe and the computer starts mimicing her music and she can hear it from through the air conditioning vent or something? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Tue May 13 07:38:59 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > The sticker has been ripped off but there is a number imprinted inside > that says 1016. I'm guessing that might be the model number for a 16k > module for the T/S 1000? Well, to make sure, plug it in and start typing program lines until you get an error message. Then you'll know. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue May 13 07:51:55 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > I remember Radio Nederlands trying to broadcast computer tapes over > shortwave radio back in late 1981. They did programs fro TRS 80's, > Commodore Pet's and Atari 400/800. I remember that the experiment was a > mixed success, with several TRS-80 users, a few Commodore users, and > only one Atari 800 user succesfully recording the program off-air, and > loading it into their computer. Possibly because just about every system except the TRS-80 was extremely picky about cassette signal levels, and most were impatient about getting signal within a narrow time frame after the load instruction was given. Back in the old days, people used to complain about the reliability of the TRS-80 cassette subsystem. That's because it was so much better than the Apple or Pet cassette interface that people waited longer before upgrading to disk, that people had time to build up a string of problems. Apples were generally upgraded to disk almost immediately because the cassette interface was so abominable -- but because it'd been used for such a short period of time, folks forgot how bad it was. Of course, the TRS-80 Color Computer had the best cassette interface in history. And it was faster than a Commodore disk interface. (No, I'm not knocking Apples and Commodores. It's just that I had to listen to the whining about TRS-80 cassette reliability for too many years from folks who weren't _quite_ annoyed enough to upgrade.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue May 13 08:00:01 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > Of course, nowadays, you can get just about any of these old systems for > around $10, but back in the old days, when these systems (yes, even a VIC) > cost $300 and up, the Apple vs TRS80 vs Commodore vs. IBM vs Mac vs Amiga > vs Atari discussions approached the intensity of jihads! Checked into the OS Holy Wars in the comp.os.(crossposted).advocacy newsgroups lately? Makes our old squabbles about mere hardware architecture seem like nothing. And there were never any arguments about TRS-80 vs. Amiga. By the time the Amiga made any impact, the TRS-80 was being pretty well phased out in favor of those damned Tandy 1000 atrocities. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue May 13 11:17:32 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705131615.JAA06350@mx3.u.washington.edu> I know there was mention on this group a few weeks back about disk platters. Here's the situation: You can help preserve a bit of history. There is a project underway in the classic gaming community to release the entire *entire* Mattel Intellivsion library on an Emulator for the PC and Macintosh. This project is being spearheaded by the Blue Sky Rangers - a group of original Mattel Intellivision programmers. In addition to all the games that people know about, the Blus Sky Rangers have some 14" DEC platters taken from 2 VAX systems that were used for development. These files on these platters include source code, screen shots and data from *UNRELEASED* Intellivision games. Some of these probably were announced titles that never shipped, others were never even announced. If anyone has working equipment that can read these platters, and extract the files to some other medium, and is willing to get involved to preserve these games before they are lost forever, please contect me at mpritchard@ensemble.net or matthep@netcom.com I thank everyone in advance, -Matt Pritchard From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue May 13 11:31:29 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 08:22:06 -0800." <9705121522.AA24020@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199705131631.LAA23902@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Tim Shoppa (referring to Micro RSTS): >> As far as I know RSTS was never ported to anything except the PDP-11 >> at least not a port that was marketed. My guess is that these are >> for one of the DEC PRO machines. These machines had the small >> LSI-11 implementation. At any rate, you're right, they're not >> for the Rainbow. > >RSTS was never released for the Pro's. Porting an operating system >to the Pro is made difficult by the fact that it's I/O subsystem >is entirely different than the more traditional PDP-11's. Ahhh. I guessed wrong. I had thought that the strange Pro I/O was what the Micro referred to, but obviously not. >If any of your -11's have a RQDX1/2/3, then all you need to do >is add a floppy to the controller. RX33 floppy drives (TEAC's >with the proper jumper setting) will also read and write RX50's. Unfortunately, I don't have one of those cards. It's nice to know they'll take ordinary drives, though. Brian L. Stuart From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue May 13 11:36:18 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: magazine collection and heath-kit 89 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 10:27:50 PDT." Message-ID: <199705131636.LAA23913@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Sam Ismail: > Dum de dum, hey an ad for the HP-86 >personal computer. I don't think I've ever seen one of these...its like >an Apple in design, with the keyboard and CPU all one unit. I never knew >HP made such a beast. I'll have to find me one of those. They do have a certain cool factor. They made several models that differed mainly in what devices were built-in. I recently got an HP-85 which has the built-in monitor, printer and tape drive. They had BASIC in ROM and had an expansion port that could take an expansion ROM cartridge carrier as well as an RS-232 interface and a GPIB interface. Now if I can just get that 9815 they've got too. Someone else has claimed it, but he's never picked it up. Brian L. Stuart From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue May 13 17:43:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705131615.JAA06350@mx3.u.washington.edu>; from "Matt Pritchard" at May 13, 97 11:17 am Message-ID: <199705131643.26947@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > In addition to all the games that people know about, the Blus Sky > Rangers have some 14" DEC platters taken from 2 VAX systems that were > used for development. These files on these platters include source > code, screen shots and data from *UNRELEASED* Intellivision games. Some > of these probably were announced titles that never shipped, others were > never even announced. 14" platters could be almost anything (off the top of my head, RK04, RK05, RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06, Several CDC drives, etc). And a drive that capable of reading one will not read any of the others (even if they will physically fit into it). If you can find out what they were written on, there's a good chance that somebody will still have at least one working drive... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue May 13 12:15:12 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705131713.KAA13164@mx3.u.washington.edu> > 14" platters could be almost anything (off the top of my head, RK04, > RK05, > RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06, Several CDC > drives, > etc). And a drive that capable of reading one will not read any of the > others (even if they will physically fit into it). > > If you can find out what they were written on, there's a good chance > that > somebody will still have at least one working drive... > > Thanks, Tony! > I'm checking on what type of platters they are right now, and will > post my findings to this list. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 13 15:28:26 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: movie computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Isn't that the one with that chick who plays the oboe and the computer > starts mimicing her music and she can hear it from through the air > conditioning vent or something? > Well, she plays a cello but that's the one. And the chick is Virginia Madsen. Besides mimicing her music the computer falls in love with her (which his owner does too) and eventually "kills it/himself" so that Moles (the owner) can be with the "chick" Les From davidv at cs.mun.ca Tue May 13 17:47:26 1997 From: davidv at cs.mun.ca (David Vincent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: movie computers Message-ID: <199705132247.UAA04167@ganymede.cs.mun.ca> hey, does anyone know the name of the computer/portable in the movie "Single White Female". I know it looks like a "lunchbox" type machine, but that's about it. thanks, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Vincent davidv@ganymede.cs.mun.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue May 13 17:59:27 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu> This news just in: According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were running Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge RL02K-DC. --------------------------- Any help in finding a system that can read it, and someone willing to help out is massively appreciated! -Matt Pritchard > -----Original Message----- > From: A.R. Duell [SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 1997 12:43 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters > > > In addition to all the games that people know about, the Blus Sky > > Rangers have some 14" DEC platters taken from 2 VAX systems that > were > > used for development. These files on these platters include source > > code, screen shots and data from *UNRELEASED* Intellivision games. > Some > > of these probably were announced titles that never shipped, others > were > > never even announced. > > 14" platters could be almost anything (off the top of my head, RK04, > RK05, > RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06, Several CDC > drives, > etc). And a drive that capable of reading one will not read any of the > others (even if they will physically fit into it). > > If you can find out what they were written on, there's a good chance > that > somebody will still have at least one working drive... > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 13 19:24:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu> from "Matt Pritchard" at May 13, 97 05:59:27 pm Message-ID: <9705132324.AA27737@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970513/0e6f2ef0/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Tue May 13 18:50:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > This news just in: > > According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were running > Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge > RL02K-DC. > --------------------------- > > Any help in finding a system that can read it, and someone willing to > help out is massively appreciated! I second that. This is a truly significant undertaking. Well, maybe not earth-shattering but its pretty cool. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 14 09:50:28 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu>; from "Matt Pritchard" at May 13, 97 5:59 pm Message-ID: <199705140850.26791@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > This news just in: > > According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were running > Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge > RL02K-DC. In that case, they're RL02 packs, with a capacity of 10.4 Mbytes. There are plenty of working RL02's about - I have a couple myself on a PDP11, although it's non-trivial to ship the packs to me. I am sure you'll find somebody in the States who can help. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed May 14 11:15:37 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705141613.JAA25938@mx3.u.washington.edu> I just wanted to say this: Already several people have offered to help out by getting the files off the RLO2 disk packs. Right now, Jim Willing seems to be the guy to do it (he also seems to be closest to the disks, which I think are in central CA). I've put him in touch with keith Robinson who is heading up the Intellivsion emulator effort. Let me just say that I am overwhelmed by the favorable response that has come from the people on this list. The sense of community and people that value computer history has left me with a lump in my throat. Thanks to all, -Matt Pritchard > -----Original Message----- > From: A.R. Duell [SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 1997 4:50 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters > > > > > > > This news just in: > > > > According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were > running > > Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge > > RL02K-DC. > > In that case, they're RL02 packs, with a capacity of 10.4 Mbytes. > There > are plenty of working RL02's about - I have a couple myself on a > PDP11, > although it's non-trivial to ship the packs to me. I am sure you'll > find > somebody in the States who can help. > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Wed May 14 20:51:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Odyssey Message-ID: Been pretty slow around here of late. I went to a thrift store and ended up finding a copy of John Scully's _Odyssey_. Although I hate this man and hold him solely responsible for the demise of Apple and especially the Apple ][ (please don't start a holy war over this, its just my stupid opinion) I found the book to contain tons of great history on Apple during the 80s and decided it would make an excellent read and historical reference. Even though it was in crummy condition, it was only $2.95. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue May 13 21:34:11 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705131615.JAA06350@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > You can help preserve a bit of history. [...] I don't have a VAX handy, so I can't help, but would you please notify this list if you succeed in reading the data? Things like this don't happen every day. :-) Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu May 15 01:13:00 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Some stuff I found on the NG today... Message-ID: <337AA96C.3CDE@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello, I saw a post on the misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc newsgroup tonight that had a bunch of vintage computer stuff in it. Including some mac software, lisa books & software, Lisa keyboard, Apple II stuff and some non-Apple stuff too. I didn't want to quote the thing here because it's a long list so go to the newsgroup or Dejanews and search this title: Apple items for sale Posted by: jmorand@tiac.net (Doug M.) By the way I don't even know this guy, I just thought the prices looked reasonable and you folks might need something he has. Greg From gram at cnct.com Thu May 15 11:05:32 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Equipment available Message-ID: Unfortunately, I can't take advantage of this due to being on the wrong edge of the continent. But if anyone else is interested, go for it. The TRS-80 Model II IMAO was always one of the most rugged and reliable systems I ever used. Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:43:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy K. in San Francisco To: gram Subject: Re: Model 2000 Xenix Hi There: I saw the posting that you placed on comp.sys.tandy that proclaimed yourself as a 16/6000 specialist/expert. I still have one that I don't use...it is taking up too much of valuable desk space...any suggestions on how to sell (for very little of course) this computer system. It is 1 MB, 20 MB primary, 12 MB secondary...2 8" double density disk drives... I also have two tandy 12s and 2 Model IIs and a VT-52 in the basement wrapped up in plastic. Software, manual, etc. etc. etc. While I was working for Toni Kelly of Bay Area (now in Dallas), we shipped a model II and it was a nightmare, so I would rather not ship it. Suggestions welcome...the owner of club-100 suggested I could ask $50 for the Model 2s, $75 for the Tandy 12 and maybe $150 for the 16/6000. Yes I know people have gotten them free or from garage sales/thrift stores...I would rather not have to dump these "boat anchors." Thanks, take care, andy k. in San Francisco scooter@california.com From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 15 15:32:29 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Lists Message-ID: Just a quick note - I've uploaded the remainder of the lists I'm working on (PCs and clones, peripherals, and operating systems) to the web site. The PC/clones list is nearly complete and the others are still very much "in progress". I don't know how useful they'll really be right now, but if you're bored you can send me additions and corrections. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 15 15:36:49 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Whoops... Message-ID: BTW - they're at http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/misc.html Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 15 22:18:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Lists In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at May 15, 97 1:32 pm Message-ID: <199705152118.2156@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> I have a few updates/corrections to the Classic Computer List : MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR Under Acorn, Add : System 3 6502 ? Acorn Micro ?? System 4 6502 56K Acorn Micro ?? System 5 6809 56K Flex-09 Micro ?? Archimedes A305 Arm2 512K RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A310 Arm2 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A410 Arm2 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A420 Arm2 2M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A440 Arm2 4M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A3000 Arm2 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A3010 Arm250 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A3020 Arm250 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A4000 Arm250 1M? RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A5000 Arm3 4M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A540 Arm3 4M RiscOS Micro ?? Also note that the Proton was the same machine as the BBC micro Epson : Update HX20 6803 8K Custom Port ?? Add: HH Electronics Tiger Z80/6809 64K+8K CP/M? Micro ?? HP : Add HP71B Saturn 16K Custom Handheld HP75C ?? ?? Custom Handheld HP75D ?? ?? Custom Handheld ICL : Add PERQ 3300 AGW 68020 2M Uniplus+ Micro 85? Intel : Add Intellec MCS8i 8080 8K Monitor Micro 73? Intellec MDS800 8080 64K ISIS Micro ?? Add (or update Three Rivers) : PERQ Systems PERQ 1 Custom 256K? POS Workstn 79 PERQ 1a Custom 1M POS/PNX Workstn 80 PERQ 2T1 Custom 1M POS/PNX Workstn 81? PERQ 2T2 Custom 2M POS/PNX Workstn 83 PERQ 2T4 Custom 4M POS/PNX Workstn 85? Philips : Update P850 Custom 2K None Mini 71 Add: P851 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P852 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P855 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P856 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P857 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P860 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? Plessey : Add Mantra M200 68000 2M Uniplus+ Micro ?? Sharp : Update PC1211 Custom 2K? ?? Handheld ?? PC1350 Custom 8K? ?? Handheld ?? PC1500 LH5801 3K ?? Handheld ?? PC1500A LH5801 8K ?? Handheld ?? Sinclair : Update MK14 SC/MP 256Bytes ?? Micro 76? QL 68008 128K QDOS Micro 84? ZX80 Z80A 1K ?? Micro 80 Torch XXX 68010 1M Uniplus+ Micro ?? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon May 12 09:06:18 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: more aquisitions Message-ID: Well, seems I've been busy as ever picking stuff up. Not only am I currently awaiting the arrival of an Apple II+, including a number of goodies, but last night I went to my two favorite thrift stores and picked up a couple of things. The first is a beige TI-99/4A. I hadn't originally planned on getting another 4A since I have a silver/black one with PEBox sitting here, but at $3, I couldn't pass it up. It's a nice looking machine, and seems to work fine. The only problem is that it is missing the 'apha lock' keycap. Hopefully I'll be able to locate one eventually. I got this at the same store I picked up the other PEBox at a month or so ago. This means I've bought a complete TI-99/4A with PEBox from them, both functional, for a total of $8! The other major thing I picked up was an AST SixPackPlus RAM and I/O board for a PC-XT. I picked this up, populated with 256k, for $10 hoping to be able to use it with the IBM 5155 to increase it's memory, as well as add the I/O ports to it. The 5155 may have all eight expansion slots, but after the built-in video and disk controller use two, that only leaves one left usable due to the length of the others behind the disk drives. After some moving around, I finally got the full length AST board installed and it worked like a champ. Now I have a full 512k plus serial and parallel I/O on the 5155! Does anyone know where I might find the clock utility for the oboard battery-backed clock on this board? That's my haul for the day...the only other things I picked up were cartridges for the C-64: Hes Mon-64 and PitFall. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu May 15 17:35:07 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays Message-ID: Greetings. Recently I picked up a manual for a machine called the "Laser Concept 286/16 Laptop" for the sole reason that it has a couple of good photos of the machine's red gas plasma display. I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) Anyway, I'm wondering why this technology was so little used. What were the major disadvantages? And do these displays still survive today? (Does anyone have one?) I think gas plasma displays look extremely cool, but I've never actually seen one in real life. They could be a real pain in the eyes to use for extended periods? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu May 15 18:07:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays Message-ID: TCPSMTP_GEN.8554.9495@206.156.30.55 At 06:39 PM 5/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in >magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) If I remember correctly, we had a Compaq 'lunchbox' portable machine that had a gas-plasma display on it. It was a '386 machine and the display pivoted outward and could be adjusted for the best viewing angle. I've seen a couple other systems with these displays as well, but don't recall which ones or if I had any problems with them. It seems to me that the gas-plasma was fairly easy on the eyes. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From pcoad at crl.com Thu May 15 18:47:26 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Recently I picked up a manual for a machine called the "Laser Concept > 286/16 Laptop" for the sole reason that it has a couple of good photos of > the machine's red gas plasma display. > > I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in > magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) I can think of two others, the HP Integra and the Toshiba 3100(?). > > Anyway, I'm wondering why this technology was so little used. What were > the major disadvantages? And do these displays still survive today? (Does > anyone have one?) Didn't it require a good deal of power compared to LCD? I'm really just guessing, but I'll bet that as LCD technology advanced, GPDs lost favor, especially once color LCDs of reasonable size dropped in price and increased in size. Both of the machines above I believe could run on batteries for some period of time, but both were also pretty heavy compared to today's laptops. I passed oppertunities to buy both machines in the last few years. I kind of regret passing on the HP. It was a pretty cool machine, it had Unix in ROM! I would snap another one up in a minute today. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Thu May 15 20:36:23 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> > Anyway, I'm wondering why this technology was so little used. What were > the major disadvantages? And do these displays still survive today? (Does > anyone have one?) They are quite expensive to manufacture and suck power like crazy, compared to LCDs. I do not know of any general purpose machines that still use them, but they are quite common in military and industrial equipment. IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. I once saw a few at a hamfest a year or so back, but they still had hefty price tags - $200. I am sure that was a small fraction of their original cost. Incidently, glass plasma displays show that electron tubes can be made _very_ small, using traditional semiconductor etching processes. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu May 15 23:05:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in > magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) Hmmm...I saw a couple GRiD laptops at the last swap meet I went to. Are these considered classic? I wasn't sure, and besides, the lady was asking too much. I think the first Compaq portables used a gas plasma display. Or was it the second generation? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 16 00:23:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515222309.00f1ac2c@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:47 PM 5/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 15 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > >Didn't it require a good deal of power compared to LCD? I'm really just >guessing, but I'll bet that as LCD technology advanced, GPDs lost favor, >especially once color LCDs of reasonable size dropped in price and increased >in size. Both of the machines above I believe could run on batteries >for some period of time, but both were also pretty heavy compared to today's >laptops. Having worked on the Compaq III series which had the plasma displays, I can vouch for the power requirements. Lighting the thing up took a couple of mills at 170V, plus the special circuitry that Compaq had to generate variable (!) intensitys on the display. Somewhat tempermental at times, and not at all practical fot battery operation. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Fri May 16 01:51:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: arcade game advertisements Message-ID: The other day I was looking at an ad on the back of a comic book. It was for a nintendo or sega game or whatnot. I then remembered how when I was a boy how Atari and other such companies used to advertise their games on the backs of comic books. Anyway, my point is that looking at the backs of old 80s comic books is a neat way to look back at the games that were available back then. It gives a nice historical perspective. Speaking of historical perspective (or something) I just got Pitfall for the Atari 2600 today (a game I had way back when I had my first 2600) and I must say even by today's standard it is a bitchen game. As far as creativity and just the sheer fun of playing it, it beats a lot of the dreck out today. I can't wait until my Pitfall II comes in. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 16 03:12:43 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: It's been slow the last few days on the list so it is time to send this. It is another look back at an issue of a magazine. This one is the January 1987 issue of Byte. There is some interesting stuff. Enjoy. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prelude Once again Sam Ismail beat me to the punch. I've been working on this on and off for about a week (mostly during long compiles). Most likely it will be boring to some, but there is some value in looking back occasionally to see how we got to this point. If the group consensus is that this sort of stuff does not belong on the list, this will be the last one. A few more are planned, but they focus more on the happier days of the 70s and early 80s. Introduction While going through some old magazines I came across the January 1987 issue of Byte. It is the oldest copy of Byte that I currently own. Over the years I have pulled this issue out and looked at it several times, not because it was a particularly good or bad issue, but because it was my first. Since this list is about collecting computers over 10 years old and this is a magazine about computers which is over ten years old, it seems to be on topic. This is somewhat biased look back to the state of computing 10 years ago as presented by Byte. As has been noted, the articles in this issue have an academic flavor so it clearly belongs to the second age. The cover of this issue features a butterfly whos body is an IC and whos wings are paper basic listings. The butterfly sits on a leaf with circuit board traces. The focus of the magazine is programmable hardware. On the cover is a block of text: REVIEWS: ------- 9 PC AT Multifunction Cards 12 EGA Cards 3 Modula-2s 12 PC AT Clones. Clearly in 1987 we were in the era of the PC. Looking through the magazine, there are some interesting threads. There are quite a few ads for expert systems/AI programs. There is even an article on the use of intelligent databases which advocates the use of Prolog to implement databases. Many languages are represented in ads and articles including several C products, Modula-2 ads and reviews, as well as ads for Forth, COBOL, Pascal, BASIC, and APL. These are primary ads focused on selling language products. There are also several ads for Unix and machines which ran Unix. It appears that a good machine in 1987 was a 286 with a 9 pin dot matrix printer, 512K of memory, a 20MB hard disk, and a 2400bps modem. A top of the line machine was a 386 with either a 24 pin dot matrix printer or a laser printer, 1MB of memory, a 40MB+ hard disk, and a 9600bps modem. There are many ads for 1200/2400 bps modems and dot matrix printers. The state of the art at the time does appear to be 9600 bps modems and 24 pin printers. One or two ads mention laser printers. It is obvious that 386 has not been on the scene for a long time. Most ads for clone machines feature AT class computers. 386's are priced at a premium. Logicsoft lists only one 386, a Compaq Deskpro with 1MB of memory, 16MHz maximum clock speed, and a 40MB hard disk for $5,349. A monitor is available as an option. Interestingly there is some coverage of the Amiga and Atari ST. There is not anywhere near the coverage of x86 machines. Several ads mention Amigas, STs, and even VAXen. The dog that didn't bark There is only one ad by Microsoft, and it is in the form of a "Languages Newsletter". It features a picture of Bill Gates and pushes their C compiler and QuickBasic. There are no articles about Microsoft products. In 1987 they had not yet achieved a strangle hold on the programming and applications markets. While there was still some diversity it was definitely being elbowed out by the beige boxes. Prices Everything was more expensive then. It is amazing that a box of 360K disks cost between 8 and 12 dollars. There are several ads in the back of the magazine in which DSDD disks could be had for as low as $.25 per disk (in quantities of 500). High end products today still command premium prices. From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 16 03:39:09 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. > They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember > them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without > overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. > I remember seeing these at a site I visited once. They were totally cool. Especially compared to the all metal green screen 3278s I had been using for the previous few years. I also remember 4 non-overlapping virtual 3278s being displayed on the screen. The display was about 4-6 inches deep and around 19 inches diagonally. (The 3278s I was using were about 2 feet deep.) I saw these in use in the early 90s. > I once saw a few at a hamfest a year or so back, but they still had hefty > price tags - $200. I am sure that was a small fraction of their original > cost. I'm sure that there are plenty of shops which would pay $200 each. There was a time in which I would have paid $200 of my own money to be able to use one of these. They beat the hell out of using 2 terminals or Tubes. There is another cool thing. This software allowed use of multiple virtual terminals on a single terminal with hot key switching. We thought this was pretty hot stuff at the time. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___ PR0G 402 /___ From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 16 08:08:22 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: References: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516090822.009a0920@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Paul E Coad said: >On Thu, 15 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > >> IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. >> They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember >> them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without >> overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. >> >I remember seeing these at a site I visited once. They were totally cool. >Especially compared to the all metal green screen 3278s I had been using >for the previous few years. I also remember 4 non-overlapping virtual >3278s being displayed on the screen. The display was about 4-6 inches >deep and around 19 inches diagonally. (The 3278s I was using were about >2 feet deep.) I saw these in use in the early 90s. Ahhhh, yes... those were the good ol' days! I remember *working* on these, and I can tell you that they were --==Sweet!!!==-- Extremely easy on the eyes, with said 4 terminals made it very handy to work on different machines at the same time. Even with 4 windows on the one terminal, ISTR that there were almost no jaggies... I worked for EDS (owned by GM) in 1989-1990 in Auburn Hills, MI, and had a chance to work with IBM/Amdahl mainframes, some of the CAD terminals that engineers designed the cars on, some early SUN hardware (can't remember which machines... they were set inside consoles, so all you had to work with were the keyboards/mice/monitors... I just remember *badly* wanting one) and a bunch of other gnarly hardware! It made me cry when I had to work on our 1-and-only overworked AS/400 that took up to 2 hours to execute one command! One night (when load was lower) I remember entering a [simple] command (WRKACTJOB [work with active jobs], if memory serves), taking orders for the entire control room, driving to Taco Bell (6-7 miles away), getting/paying for the food, went back and distributed everything, and I was still done eating 10 minutes before the command displayed output! Anyone out there have a GPD for sale for $5 that I can interface to my CoCo3? *Pinch* Owww! Damn! I'm at work! Gotta go! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 09:31:57 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: References: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> > This sounds like a lot of content, but there are 86 full page > ads. 43 column adds which comes out to about 14 more pages of ads. Out > of 201 pages in the technical section 100 pages are ads. This is not too > bad, but for a magazine which was at one time highly technical, it is > pretty sad. Tot total number of pages in this issue was 488. How many pages > of technical content does it [BYTE] have now? > > > IMHO, close to zero. From groberts at mitre.org Fri May 16 09:53:42 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> References: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> At 08:31 AM 5/16/97 -0600, Jeff Kaneko wrote: >> How many pages of technical content does it [BYTE] have now? >> >IMHO, close to zero. > i have many of the older Bytes (late 70's). those were high quality content for any microcomputer enthusiast. I threw out most of my issues from the mid to late 80's (after pulling out useful articles including all the Steve Ciarcia columns!). Also have two of the compendiums of early Dr. Dobb's that are chock full of stuff like assembly listings and construction blueprints. trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... - glenn From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Fri May 16 10:32:56 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 May 1997 10:53:42 EDT." <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> Message-ID: <199705161533.KAA29667@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Glenn Roberts wrote: >trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's >Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... Peering through the haze of long lost memories (delay line and core) I see a title something like: Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calesthnics [sp?] and Orthodontia: Running Light without Overbyte To my great regret, though, I don't own any copies from back then. Brian L. Stuart From transit at primenet.com Fri May 16 10:47:12 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: > > > This sounds like a lot of content, but there are 86 full page > > ads. 43 column adds which comes out to about 14 more pages of ads. Out > > of 201 pages in the technical section 100 pages are ads. This is not too > > bad, but for a magazine which was at one time highly technical, it is > > pretty sad. Tot total number of pages in this issue was 488. How many pages > > of technical content does it [BYTE] have now? > > > > > > > IMHO, close to zero. > Last time I read Byte (about a year or so now), it seemed to be not only a shadow of its former self. . .but also a weak version of one of the PC Computing type magazines . . . From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 11:07:57 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> References: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <60EB219529C1@ifrsys.com> > > trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's > Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... > > - glenn > > > I dunno. I think it had something to do with Orthodontia (or something). jeff From groberts at mitre.org Fri May 16 10:56:05 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705161533.KAA29667@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516115605.007d6980@mail90> that didn't take long. congrat's (1/2 point off for misspelling calisthenics). I have vol's 4 & 5 of the compendium which cover 1979 and 1980. 1980 issues were big on Apple II, Northstar, CP/M, UCSD pascal and of course source code for Ron Cain's original "small C" for the 8080. in '79 i see references to the 6800 microprocessor, KIM, COSMAC and other early SBC's, PROM burning, SWTPC, Z80 disassembler, etc. fun stuff. - glenn At 10:32 AM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >Glenn Roberts wrote: >>trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's >>Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... > >Peering through the haze of long lost memories (delay line and core) >I see a title something like: > >Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calesthnics [sp?] and Orthodontia: >Running Light without Overbyte > >To my great regret, though, I don't own any copies from back then. > >Brian L. Stuart > > > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 16 11:13:26 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > i have many of the older Bytes (late 70's). those were high quality > content for any microcomputer enthusiast. I threw out most of my issues > from the mid to late 80's (after pulling out useful articles including all > the Steve Ciarcia columns!). Also have two of the compendiums of early Dr. > Dobb's that are chock full of stuff like assembly listings and construction > blueprints. > > trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's > Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Fri May 16 12:01:14 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> from "Glenn Roberts" at May 16, 97 10:53:42 am Message-ID: <199705161701.NAA22821@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Glenn Roberts once stated: > > trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's > Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calestentics and Orthodontia: Running Light Without Overbyte. -spc (Kant spel werth a darn) From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 13:01:43 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> Message-ID: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> > > If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) > > Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia > > Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > Hrrumph! It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you good, you survived! Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". jeff From gram at cnct.com Fri May 16 12:42:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. > They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember > them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without > overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. IBM 3290 Terminal. Equivalent to four 3270 series terminals. There's one within twenty feet of my desk at Prudential. I wish it could be used as ASCII terminals -- it's look dynomite attached to my sundry Unix and Linux boxen. But it's only good with SNA. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Fri May 16 12:59:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Hrrumph! > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you > good, you survived! > > Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, > pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". Its totally fricken pathetic, isn't it? I remember when whole operating systems resided in less than 64K. Now, you need 64 megs for all the pretty GUI shit and sound clips. Totally pathetic. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 16 14:18:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at May 16, 97 12:01:43 pm Message-ID: <9705161818.AA09703@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 418 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970516/e0fda99f/attachment.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Fri May 16 14:22:48 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705161920.MAA19666@mx3.u.washington.edu> I'll post the results to this news group. I've been out of touch for the last couple days, so I don't know what plans have been made so far. As I said before: the response from this list has been fantastic. Another piece of classic computing history will be rescued from oblivion and made available for users everywhere (via the emulator project). -Matt P > > You can help preserve a bit of history. > [...] > > I don't have a VAX handy, so I can't help, but would you please > notify > this list if you succeed in reading the data? Things like this don't > happen > every day. :-) > > Alexios > > From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 16 14:13:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <9705161818.AA09703@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) > > > > > > Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia > > > > > > Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte > > The very first issue actually reads "Dr. Dobbs Journal of > Tiny Basic Calisthenics and Orthodontia." The first couple > years of issues heavily concentrate on Tiny Basic. After that > they were a heavy promoter of Tiny C. > The original plan for DDJ was it was to run a total of 3 issues to discuss Tiny BASIC. People liked the magazine and so they decided to continue publishing it. Last Thursday I got bound volumes 1-9 (minus 7) of DDJ. It is a lot of fun reading these. Recrecational computing was an adventure back then. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 16 15:08:20 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) > > > > Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia > > > > Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte > > Hrrumph! > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. Perhaps it should not be considered so much "amazing", as quietly reassuring... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 16:58:39 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: References: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <622C2700018C@ifrsys.com> > > Hrrumph! > > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > Perhaps it should not be considered so much "amazing", as quietly > reassuring... > > -jim > --- Good point, Jim. There _are_ pockets of sanity on the modern computer landscape (this mailing list being one). jeff From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 16 18:30:53 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: IBM 6151 Message-ID: <970516193040_-929639513@emout09.mail.aol.com> I dont know if this machine qualifies for discussion, but i know nothing about this model, and perhaps someone does. Its an IBM, and the model number is 6151 and appears to be in a slightly modified IBM AT case. it has an led display and a 5.25 drive and non standard connectors inthe back. i get nothing but a blinking cursor on powerup and some incrementing numbers on the led display. i think it might have sort of unix on it, as a piece of paper has the root passwoid taped to it. anyone know what this is? what is worth $20? david From spc at armigeron.com Fri May 16 22:27:24 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:26 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 16, 97 10:59:36 am Message-ID: <199705170327.XAA24160@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > Hrrumph! > > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > > > Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you > > good, you survived! > > > > Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, > > pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". > > Its totally fricken pathetic, isn't it? I remember when whole operating > systems resided in less than 64K. Now, you need 64 megs for all the > pretty GUI shit and sound clips. Totally pathetic. > But you can do more with more memory, in less time. Now, it's easier to run, for instance, statistical analysis on large amounts of text and use that to generate interresting, if somewhat bizarre, text. Or edit large images, or even do sound manipulation. I remember in 1985 or 86, programming my Coco (with 64K of RAM - upgraded myself from 16K) to do a 6-bit sound sample. I could get a reconizable sample of 30 seconds (each sample took 32k), and only reconizable because I knew what to listen for. A decent sample lasted only 2 or 3 seconds. Still though, that doesn't excuse the bloat of today's operating systems. Just wished that the operating systems could reside in under 64K (actually, the kernel for QNX on a Pentium weighs in under 10K). -spc (Sigh) From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 02:41:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705170327.XAA24160@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > I remember in 1985 or 86, programming my Coco (with 64K of RAM - upgraded > myself from 16K) to do a 6-bit sound sample. I could get a reconizable > sample of 30 seconds (each sample took 32k), and only reconizable because I > knew what to listen for. A decent sample lasted only 2 or 3 seconds. HA! I could do 40 seconds in 48K on my Apple ][+ at 1-bit and it was pretty legible. Didn't need no silly pentium and EDO memory for that. If I sampled it into my 1 meg RAM card on my //e I could get five (count'em FIVE) whole minutes! > > Still though, that doesn't excuse the bloat of today's operating systems. > Just wished that the operating systems could reside in under 64K (actually, > the kernel for QNX on a Pentium weighs in under 10K). I believe it's around 4K. And they have an impressive micro-GUI called Photon which operates in under a meg. It easily compares to Windows. I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. What next? A 500meg operating system? The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us Fri May 16 20:52:22 1997 From: mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us (mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: (from Sam Ismail ) Message-ID: <24705fd4.411b4-mojaveg@mojaveg.ridgecrest.ca.us> Hi Sam, > > Hrrumph! > > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > > > Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you > > good, you survived! > > > > Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, > > pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". > > Its totally fricken pathetic, isn't it? I remember when whole operating > systems resided in less than 64K. Now, you need 64 megs for all the > pretty GUI stuff and sound clips. Totally pathetic. There was a recent posting to a newsgroup wherein the author claimed one couldn't compile a program with a particular compiler in less than 8 Mbytes. The fact that people were doing it with 2 and 4 Mbytes was apparently of no relevance. It brought to mind that I have a Pascal compiler for an older machine that works very well in 24 Kbytes. Something has gotten completely out of whack. From spc at armigeron.com Sat May 17 11:05:13 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 17, 97 00:41:26 am Message-ID: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > > > Still though, that doesn't excuse the bloat of today's operating systems. > > Just wished that the operating systems could reside in under 64K (actually, > > the kernel for QNX on a Pentium weighs in under 10K). > > I believe it's around 4K. And they have an impressive micro-GUI called > Photon which operates in under a meg. It easily compares to Windows. > > I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap > space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. > What next? A 500meg operating system? > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). > The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk > was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything > comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). > I've heard incredible things about the Apple ][ Disk drive. One, that it took only 5 ICs for the hardware, and now only 256 bytes of code to read from it? I'd really like to see both the schematics and the code. That's just incredible. -spc (Also remembers writing code to drive the serial port under the Coco ... ) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat May 17 12:20:58 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> from "Captain Napalm" at May 17, 97 12:05:13 pm Message-ID: <9705171620.AA08251@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1284 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970517/c2b5aa1c/attachment.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Sat May 17 11:47:22 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives Message-ID: <199705171645.JAA13571@mx5.u.washington.edu> Sam, That's not entirely true. ;-) I'm being paid to write optimized assembly code for an upcoming game from (of all people) Microsoft. 12,000 lines of hand tuned assembly, with some truely wonderful gems of small, efficient code in it. I must admit though that we had an editor from one of the gaming magazines come by the other day and mention that the only other gam company still writing serious assembly was NovaLogic... It does seems like a dying art. But I'm off topic. What I wanted to bring up was Creative Computing Magazine , pre 1981. I was only 10 - 14 years old during that time period, but I remember the content as being fantastic. There were fewer rules and a much more hardcore audience then. Does anyone remeber "Computer Myths Explained" and the great line drawings of robots and wierd machines that took on a life of their own. I'd love to get a collection of those drawings... -Matt Pritchard mpritchard@ensemble.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 1997 2:41 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Magazine retrospectives > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk > > was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything > comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). > > Sam > From danjo at xnet.com Sat May 17 15:41:40 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <9705171620.AA08251@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I've heard incredible things about the Apple ][ Disk drive. One, that it > > took only 5 ICs for the hardware, and now only 256 bytes of code to read > > from it? I'd really like to see both the schematics and the code. That's > > just incredible. > > The 256-byte-long bootstrap for the Disk ][ is really quite long, > as the very simple hardware needs extensive help from the software > to read anything from the disk. The very complex hardware/software > interaction is well-documented in Worth's and Lechner's _Beneath > Apple DOS_, still available new from Quality Computers. The > schematics are published in the back of both the Apple DOS 3.2 > and 3.3 manuals, though the schematics themselves don't do you > a lot of good unless you know the programming of the bipolar > PROM's used in the controller's state machine. > > For comparison, my S-100 boxes with WD1771-derived controllers have > bootstraps that are just over a dozen bytes long. I thought the WD-17XX and WD-19XX chips were programed to automatically get the first track/sector on reset. I seem to remember that the other controller chips from that time also did this. I always thought this was the ONLY way to do it 8-) I have often thought that if all the peripherials (did I spell that right?) did the same thing (at reset) and made thier *internal drivers* available at boot up - it would be a much easier world with IO. You would just have to set a switch on the IO card/device to tell it what CPU it is working with and then be done with it. > For many PDP-11 disk devices, the bootstrap is only a couple words. > When you have to toggle the bootstrap in through the front panel every > time you boot, a short bootstrap is extremely desirable. > Of course, in these cases, there is substantially more intelligence > in the device and controller than there is in the Disk ][. Oh I don't know 8-) Some of them seem pretty stupid when I try to talk to them. They don't seem to understand that they have to work the way I WANT them to 8-) > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) BC From william at ans.net Sat May 17 18:40:07 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Help with old SGI In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199705172340.AA23803@interlock.ans.net> I dragged home a big old Motorola based SGI today, and will need a great deal of help repairing it. Do any of you have any information/knowledge of the IRIS series of machines (specifically IRIS 2500T)? I am almost completely stupid when it comes to SGIs, and the Web is not much help (all FAQs deal with the 4D/ machines). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:34:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Help with old SGI In-Reply-To: <199705172340.AA23803@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I dragged home a big old Motorola based SGI today, and will need a great > deal of help repairing it. Do any of you have any information/knowledge You're stoked. I was at an auction a few weeks back and there were four of them, and I was hoping to get one but I had to leave before the auctioneer got to them. I found out later they went for at least a $1000 each anyway, which I definitely would not have paid. Anyway, don't have any help for you. I heard that the graphics for Jurrasic Park were rendered on those though. Anyone care to back this up? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca Sat May 17 23:53:09 1997 From: scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Osborne computer (fwd) Message-ID: I don't think I have to add anything to this email I recieved today... Can anyone out there save it? ttfn srw ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:09:49 +0100 From: Mike O'Neill To: walde@dlcwest.com Subject: Osborne computer Hi and I wonder if you can help. I have and Osborne computer (I'm not sure which one but it is an 80 col display with 2 x 185k drives and EProms fitted to hot it up and allow burning in of favourite software such as Wordstar and dBaseII). I don't want to trash the machine and am trying to find out a contact in UK who might be interested in giving it a home as a piece of computing history. The machine still works and is in good order although I havn'e fired it up for some time. Any help you can give would be appreciated. I can be reached at mikeon@globalnet.co.uk. Hope you can help and thanks in anticipation. Best wishes Mike O'Neill From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:45:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Videotrax > This was an interesting system. It consisted of a board which plugged > into a PC and some software which allowed backups of a system using a > VCR. They claimed to be able to get up to 80MB per tape. They also sold > a VCR which allowed unattended I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:50:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <9705171620.AA08251@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > For comparison, my S-100 boxes with WD1771-derived controllers have > bootstraps that are just over a dozen bytes long. For many > PDP-11 disk devices, the bootstrap is only a couple words. When > you have to toggle the bootstrap in through the front panel every > time you boot, a short bootstrap is extremely desirable. Of > course, in these cases, there is substantially more intelligence > in the device and controller than there is in the Disk ][. Exactly. The Apple ][e bootstrap does a lot of work to read the boot sector off the disk. It creates the 6&2 encoding table, looks for the boot sector and reads it, decodes it and then jumps to it, all in less than 256 bytes. Impressive as all hell. Woz is a god damn GOD. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:53:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705171645.JAA13571@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > Sam, > That's not entirely true. ;-) I'm being paid to write optimized > assembly code for an upcoming game from (of all people) Microsoft. > 12,000 lines of hand tuned assembly, with some truely wonderful gems of > small, efficient code in it. I must admit though that we had an editor Well, then you are the exception and I salute you. I would actually prefer writing machine code programs on my apple ][ these days but there's no money in it. > the only other gam company still writing serious assembly was > NovaLogic... It does seems like a dying art. Only if you let it die. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:47:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap > > space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. > > What next? A 500meg operating system? > > > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x > series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in > 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). Yeah, it was a version less than 1.00. I haven't played with Linux for a while and didn't know that the kernal has fattened up since 1.0. I guess I better stop bragging to people that I can run linux in less than 4 megabytes. > > The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk > > was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything > > comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). > > > I've heard incredible things about the Apple ][ Disk drive. One, that it > took only 5 ICs for the hardware, and now only 256 bytes of code to read > from it? I'd really like to see both the schematics and the code. That's > just incredible. The Apple ][ was an incredible machine. One beautiful hack on top of the next. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Sun May 18 00:05:40 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Help with old SGI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705180505.AA16698@interlock.ans.net> > You're stoked. I was at an auction a few weeks back and there were four > of them, and I was hoping to get one but I had to leave before the > auctioneer got to them. I found out later they went for at least a $1000 > each anyway, which I definitely would not have paid. This one was free. It seems to be about ten years old, and was previously doing ocean wave anaylsis or some such thing at the University of Chicago. The disk (14" Fujitsu Eagle 424) has been parted out, and someone raped some of the chips from the boards. Of course, I do not have IRIX (the operating system) or any documentation. It looks like I have another long term project! > Anyway, don't have any help for you. I heard that the graphics for > Jurrasic Park were rendered on those though. Anyone care to back this up? No doubt the movie was not done on IRISes - way too slow. Most likely the movie people used MIPS based SGIs, with all of those fancy graphics coprocessors. SGI adandonded Motorola 68K processors sometime in the late-1980s, probably for the same reason Sun and HP did. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:55:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Digital RX-02 dual 8" drive unit Message-ID: I picked up a Digital RX-02 dual 8" drive unit today that I have absolutely no use for but figured someone in this discussion group would want. Please contact me personally if you are interested in taking it off my hands (dastar@crl.com). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Sun May 18 02:56:46 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap > > > space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. > > > What next? A 500meg operating system? > > > > > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x > > series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in > > 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). > > Yeah, it was a version less than 1.00. I haven't played with Linux for a > while and didn't know that the kernal has fattened up since 1.0. I guess > I better stop bragging to people that I can run linux in less than 4 > megabytes. I don't know Sam, I ran Linux 1.2.13 in 4 MB for quite some time. It got REAL SLOW when I ran X-Windows but hell, it did run! Now I got 2.0.29 and 8 MB and run Linux in a couple of Virtual Consoles and DOSEmu in another (only when I need too!) and have one machine for a comm server (386DX40 with NO keyboard and NO video card - can NT even do that?!?!?!? I mean I know it won't run on a 386 with 8 MB but without Kb and Video??), my work machine (386DX33), and the *family* machine (486DX66) running WFW 3.11 all connected on the Internet (using IPMASQ) and running Samba to make WFW happy. I am pretty sure I can get 2.0.29 to run in 4 MB and a WHOLE LOTTA SWAP 8-) BC From transit at primenet.com Sun May 18 09:24:50 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > Videotrax > > This was an interesting system. It consisted of a board which plugged > > into a PC and some software which allowed backups of a system using a > > VCR. They claimed to be able to get up to 80MB per tape. They also sold > > a VCR which allowed unattended > > I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think > the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) > let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. I remember a similar system (Corvus Mirror) that we had in our undergraduate computer lab (UCSB, 1984-86 or so). I also remember someone doing a research project on document preservation by storing digitized copies of documents on a videotape with one of these backup devices. In both cases, there were problems with the reliability of the backups (seems that VHS tapes aren't such a great medium for data storage, anyway) From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun May 18 15:09:10 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Videotrax > > I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think > the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) > let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned them. Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move and the it was the easiest place to store it). So, if you live in the greater Seattle area and you see a good amount of the following show up when you're poking around, please let me know (I'm not as much concerned about the equipment as I am about my addressbook, insurance folder, and vehicle registration.). Stolen: IBM 6360 disk drive, Macintosh, Mac 512, Box of CompuPro s-100 boards, Box of misc. manuals, Commodore DPS-1101 printer, TI99/4a expansion box, Turbo C64 disk drive, CBM 8050 dual disk drive, Atari 520ST, 2 commodore vic-1541 disk drives, 1 blue chip disk drive. I'm sure the thieves thought they really scored but I'm guessing it will soon turn up at a thrift store or pawn shop when they can't move it. Some of the equipment may be blood-stained. I have mounted razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they found them when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite gratifying. ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From danjo at xnet.com Sun May 18 15:37:39 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > Videotrax > > I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think > > the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) > > let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. I saw this in an Slpha Micro shop (headquarters?) in Irvine California back in - oh - 83?84?. It was neat *seeing* the data but as I understood it, everything had to be recorded 5+ times for ANY reliable data recovery. > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. I also remember either Byte of Dr. Dobb's doing this for a little while. I might be slipping tho. > Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night > and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move > and the it was the easiest place to store it). So, if you live in the > greater Seattle area and you see a good amount of the following show > up when you're poking around, please let me know (I'm not as much > concerned about the equipment as I am about my addressbook, insurance > folder, and vehicle registration.). Ouch! > Stolen: IBM 6360 disk drive, Macintosh, Mac 512, Box of CompuPro s-100 > boards, Box of misc. manuals, Commodore DPS-1101 printer, TI99/4a > expansion box, Turbo C64 disk drive, CBM 8050 dual disk drive, Atari > 520ST, 2 commodore vic-1541 disk drives, 1 blue chip disk drive. Naw - it will end up in the garbage 8-( > I'm sure the thieves thought they really scored but I'm guessing it > will soon turn up at a thrift store or pawn shop when they can't > move it. Some of the equipment may be blood-stained. I have mounted > razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they found them > when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite > gratifying. Sorry this took so long - I only have two fingers left to type with 8-) Damn - that's MEAN man!!! Probably gratifying - but even worse if someone called the cops on you for dealing drugs and the cops searched the car! You could/would get sued for attempted MURDER (if your cops are like our cops 8-( then beaten to some what of a mush - while trying to *escape* or *resisting* arrest!) Well, that's unless you are well know to your local constablary(sp). Other than that - Cool idea! Do you have a sticker in the window - Protected by Gillette or something 8-) BC From transit at primenet.com Sun May 18 17:21:14 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Bar code readers (was: Re: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. There were at least two of these a. Oscar Databar, late 1993 and b. Cauzin Softstrip, more like 1985-6 From dastar at crl.com Sun May 18 19:18:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Digital RX-02 dual 8" drive unit Message-ID: Hmmm, I don't know if it was caused by last night's drunken stupor, but the e-mail from the person interested in the RX-02 got lost somehow. If you were the person interetsed, could you pleae e-mail me again? Sorry about that. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun May 18 19:15:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: strange storage devices In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970518091327.00ddbccc@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. Yes, I very much remember these and very much remember it always being on my wish list of things to add to my Apple. I never did get one. I posted a WTB ad on an Apple newsgroup a while back for one and some guy responded but he gave me this bullshit "tell me what you're willing to pay" line for it and so I told him $25 and he never replied. Anyway, if anyone's got one and wants it to go to a good home, let me know. > Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night > and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move > and the it was the easiest place to store it). So, if you live in the > greater Seattle area and you see a good amount of the following show > up when you're poking around, please let me know (I'm not as much > concerned about the equipment as I am about my addressbook, insurance > folder, and vehicle registration.). > > Stolen: IBM 6360 disk drive, Macintosh, Mac 512, Box of CompuPro s-100 > boards, Box of misc. manuals, Commodore DPS-1101 printer, TI99/4a > expansion box, Turbo C64 disk drive, CBM 8050 dual disk drive, Atari > 520ST, 2 commodore vic-1541 disk drives, 1 blue chip disk drive. Now this is some seriously fucked up shit. > I'm sure the thieves thought they really scored but I'm guessing it > will soon turn up at a thrift store or pawn shop when they can't > move it. Some of the equipment may be blood-stained. I have mounted > razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they found them > when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite > gratifying. HAHAHHA! That's great. Well, I hope you get your stuff back, but at least you made the assholes suffer. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From BigLouS at aol.com Sun May 18 21:49:35 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives Message-ID: <970518224935_-129887119@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-18 01:02:33 EDT, Sam writes: > Exactly. The Apple ][e bootstrap does a lot of work to read the boot > sector off the disk. It creates the 6&2 encoding table, looks for the > boot sector and reads it, decodes it and then jumps to it, all in less > than 256 bytes. Impressive as all hell. Woz is a god damn GOD. AMEN brother. Jobs who? Lou From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 18 23:34:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518213409.00e37e84@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:09 PM 5/18/97 -0700, you wrote: > >On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the >"scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it >was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in >Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read >and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned >them. It's called a Causin 'Strip Reader'. Cable and software kits were available for both PC compatable and Apple II series computers. I have one in my collection, but with no software at present. (have not got a picture on the web page yet either - foo!) Have been trying to track down the software for either system... >Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night >and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move >and the it was the easiest place to store it). Aw heck! ('course, I do the same...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From gram at cnct.com Mon May 19 08:14:29 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Bloated code? In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x > series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in > 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). The "bloating up" of the Linux 2.0 kernel depends on several factors. One of them is whether you modularize device drivers etc. In the previous kernel releases, all of your device drivers had to be compiled in, whether you used them regularly or not. With 2.0 you can make them a permanent part of the kernel or you can compile them as modules to be loaded on demand. Yes, if you make _everything_ part of the kernel, the thing will be huge. If you're running without networking, SCSI, sound card, multi-serial, CD-ROM -- just ST506 or IDE drives, Linux 2.x can be smaller and faster than 1.x, and can be happy in four meg of RAM. And if you need some of these features only occasionally, such as to load software from CD or ethernet, the driver module can be loaded, used, then dropped. My old 386DX25 has been _much_ happier since I upgraded to 2.0, and yes, I have tested its operation with only four meg (it has eight normally). This machine is _not_ being used for X -- a matter of CPU speed on that part. It's semi-retired to just dial out with a modem, collect Usenet news, and make that news available to the rest of the basement via NFS. It's stable and I do not foresee much more upgrading of that machine -- it's not a classic in any way, shape or form and the job it's doing is essentially a sinecure for long and faithful service. It was the machine I started hacking Linux on about five years ago with a stack of SLS floppies (5.25" 1.2MB) more than six inches high. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Mon May 19 11:36:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: stuff for trade Message-ID: Well, I had a good weekend, acquiring lots of stuff too numerous to list. I got a genuine IBM PC (this time for sure), an Atari 1040ST, a Visual Computer Inc. Commuter "lap-top" (circa 1983 with a small flip-up LCD display, runs DOS), a Tandy TRS-80 Model 2000, TI Silent 700 Portable Data Terminal, Atari 800XL... I also picked up some extras for trading. Currently I have a couple original IBM PCs and PC XTs and a couple TI Silent 700 protable data terminals (with acoustic couplers). One of the IBM PCs is an oddity: it is actually labelled the IBM 3270 Personal Computer and inside it has three cards connected together to form the video card. It has one 9-pin male 'D' connector on the back (like a standard monochrome monitor adaptor). I was told this was for an enhanced graphics monitor. It also had a card in the slot next to the CPU. The card has a CPU on it, and has a ribbon cable going from the card to the socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be. Any ideas what this is? I don't know if I want to trade this just yet. But if anyone is interested in a genuine IBM PC for trade, I can get more. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Mon May 19 17:49:47 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: ADDS Multivision Message-ID: <16A354B7DF6@holly.ninja.ml.org> Hi! I have in my basement a genuine ADDS Multivision machine. It's runs a multitasking version of CP/M, called MUON, and used to run brilliantly until I accidentally ran the SYSGEN utility which, I found out later, overwrote the config information. It now refuses to boot, saying "Stack error" or something equally useful :-( Has anybody heard of this machine before - or, even better, does anybody have boot disks for MUON v2.3 ?? I would phone up ADDS, but they're in America and I don't particularly fancy all the international phone calls from the UK! I don't have their address or fax number or anything - and that's not even mentioning the fact that quite probably, nobody there will know a thing about this machine! :-( If any of you can help in any way, it would be much appreciated!! Thanks, ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From starling at umr.edu Mon May 19 12:22:54 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 19, 97 09:36:00 am Message-ID: <199705191722.MAA25765@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > One of the IBM PCs is an oddity: it is actually labelled the IBM 3270 > Personal Computer and inside it has three cards connected together to form > the video card. It has one 9-pin male 'D' connector on the back (like a > standard monochrome monitor adaptor). I was told this was for an enhanced > graphics monitor. It also had a card in the slot next to the CPU. The > card has a CPU on it, and has a ribbon cable going from the card to the > socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be. Any ideas what this > is? I don't know if I want to trade this just yet. But if anyone is > interested in a genuine IBM PC for trade, I can get more. I've heard about these before. It's no graphics adapter. Boot the sucker up and most likely you won't see DOS. It's an IBM 370 mainframe emulator. Here's what I've heard: There should be a "P" card that should have two Motorola 68000s, both modified in varying ways and produced under license by IBM on it, plus a 8087. It should attach to the M card that has 512K of ram on it. And then there's a PC3277-EM card that is just a 3270 terminal emulator that should attach to the mainframe. I don't know much more about this, since I'm just getting all this information second hand. It's allegedly in a book called _Upgrading and Repairing PCs_, but I don't know the author. It'd be very interesting if this sucker could run VM/SP like a real 370 and stuff. I learned assembly on those damn things... back when my university still had dumb terminals in the computer labs. Heh. chris From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon May 19 13:01:39 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: ADDS Multivision In-Reply-To: <16A354B7DF6@holly.ninja.ml.org> Message-ID: <199705191801.NAA18585@fudge.uchicago.edu> "Jonathan Hunter" said, > I would phone up ADDS, but they're in America and I don't > particularly fancy all the international phone calls from the UK! > I don't have their address or fax number or anything - and that's not > even mentioning the fact that quite probably, nobody there will know > a thing about this machine! :-( According to http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/adds_viewpoint_news.txt ADDS was bought by NCR, merged into AT&T, and then spun off again as SunRiver Data Systems. Here are the addresses and phone numbers from that page: SunRiver Data Systems, Inc. 100 Marcus Blvd. P.O. Box 18001 Hauppauge, NY 11788-3762 voice: +1 516/342-7400 ext 7259 voice: +31-24-352-9001 WATS: 1-800-231-5445 ext 7259 fax: +1 516/342-7378 BBS: +1 407/333-8326 (8 bits, No Parity, 1 Stop bit) Eric From dastar at crl.com Mon May 19 13:17:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: ADDS Multivision In-Reply-To: <16A354B7DF6@holly.ninja.ml.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Jonathan Hunter wrote: > I have in my basement a genuine ADDS Multivision machine. It's runs a > multitasking version of CP/M, called MUON, and used to run > brilliantly until I accidentally ran the SYSGEN utility which, I > found out later, overwrote the config information. It now refuses to > boot, saying "Stack error" or something equally useful :-( > > I would phone up ADDS, but they're in America and I don't > particularly fancy all the international phone calls from the UK! > I don't have their address or fax number or anything - and that's not > even mentioning the fact that quite probably, nobody there will know > a thing about this machine! :-( Not only that, but I don't even think there will be anyone there to answer the phone. Is this company even still around? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marcw at lightside.com Mon May 19 15:15:26 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: stuff for trade Message-ID: <199705192307.QAA14816@covina.lightside.com> > > It's an IBM 370 mainframe emulator. Here's what I've heard: > > There should be a "P" card that should have two Motorola 68000s, both > modified in varying ways and produced under license by IBM on it, plus a > 8087. It should attach to the M card that has 512K of ram on it. And > then there's a PC3277-EM card that is just a 3270 terminal emulator that > should attach to the mainframe. > > I don't know much more about this, since I'm just getting all this > information second hand. It's allegedly in a book called _Upgrading and > Repairing PCs_, but I don't know the author. > I have that book. It's by Scott Mueller and the one I have is 1988. Here's what it says (to add to your info): "...All this hardware is run by a program called the 3270 PC Control Program. This combination can support up to seven concurrent activities: one local PC DOS session, four remote mainfram sessions, and two local electronic notepads. With the assistance of the 3270 PC Control Program, information can be copied between windows, except that a PC DOS window may not receive information. " The cards used are: 3270 System Adapter (communication 'tween the 3270 PC & 3274) Display Adapter (replaces PC's mono/cga card. No graphics unless...) Extended Graphics Adapter - XGA (required to get graphics) Programmed Symbols adapter (provides graphics with 3278/3279 stations) IBM also had an XT 370 that used the PC 370-P, PC 370-M, and PC 3277-EM cards. The P card emulates the 370 instruction set. This card has the Motorola 68K cpu's. It also has the 8087. The M card is the 512K mentioned above. And the 3277 card hooks up to the S/370 mainframe. So I reckon you have the XT 370. The price of the 370 attachments was $3,000 over the price of the XT this stuff had to go into. Jeez! Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From pcoad at crl.com Mon May 19 19:21:13 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: <199705192307.QAA14816@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997 marcw@lightside.com wrote: > IBM also had an XT 370 that used the PC 370-P, PC 370-M, and > PC 3277-EM cards. > The P card emulates the 370 instruction set. This card has the > Motorola 68K cpu's. It also has the 8087. > The M card is the 512K mentioned above. > And the 3277 card hooks up to the S/370 mainframe. > > So I reckon you have the XT 370. > The price of the 370 attachments was $3,000 over the price of the > XT this stuff had to go into. Jeez! > Compared to to a real 370, a console, terminals, DASDs, and what not, this price is not too bad. Add the fact that the XT 370 likely did not require a riser floor, motor-generator, air conditioning, and a square kilofoot of floor space, and it starts to look even better. I wonder why they were not more popular. Run JCL on your desktop machine! This may have a strange appeal to me, but how many people really want to run MVS on a desktop machine? I'd really be interested in knowing what people used these machines for other than super-3278s. Anyone know what happened to OpenMVS? (Feels like Unix, works like MVS) IBM was pushing it in some Unix rags a few years ago. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Mon May 19 20:14:17 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3380fa12.247821@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 19 May 1997 17:21:13 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >Compared to to a real 370, a console, terminals, DASDs, and what not, >this price is not too bad. Add the fact that the XT 370 likely did >not require a riser floor, motor-generator, air conditioning, and a >square kilofoot of floor space, and it starts to look even better. > >I wonder why they were not more popular. Run JCL on your desktop machine! >This may have a strange appeal to me, but how many people really want to >run MVS on a desktop machine? I'd really be interested in knowing what >people used these machines for other than super-3278s. I used an AT-370 about ten years ago, but not long enough to remember anything at all about it. We (fed government) had software that ran on a 360 and I needed to run it in the office. (but never did!) _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From dastar at crl.com Mon May 19 20:49:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: <199705192307.QAA14816@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997 marcw@lightside.com wrote: > I have that book. It's by Scott Mueller and the one I have is 1988. > Here's what it says (to add to your info): > > "...All this hardware is run by a program called the 3270 PC Control > Program. This combination can support up to seven concurrent > activities: one local PC DOS session, four remote mainfram sessions, > and two local electronic notepads. With the assistance of the 3270 > PC Control Program, information can be copied between windows, > except that a PC DOS window may not receive information. " > > The cards used are: > 3270 System Adapter (communication 'tween the 3270 PC & 3274) > Display Adapter (replaces PC's mono/cga card. No graphics unless...) > Extended Graphics Adapter - XGA (required to get graphics) > Programmed Symbols adapter (provides graphics with 3278/3279 stations) > > > IBM also had an XT 370 that used the PC 370-P, PC 370-M, and > PC 3277-EM cards. > The P card emulates the 370 instruction set. This card has the > Motorola 68K cpu's. It also has the 8087. > The M card is the 512K mentioned above. > And the 3277 card hooks up to the S/370 mainframe. > > So I reckon you have the XT 370. > The price of the 370 attachments was $3,000 over the price of the > XT this stuff had to go into. Jeez! Awesome. What a cool find. Speaking of 3270 stuff, does anyone have a use for any 3279 terminals and IBM terminal servers, as well as some IBM printers (can't remember the model number, maybe 3287)? I know a guy who has some that will go to scrap unless someone wants to pay for the shipping. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun May 18 23:27:50 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. Oh yeah... I remeber that. Vaguely. Can't remember its name, though. However, it wasn't an Apple II only thing. I distinctly remember reading that it was available for a number of machines (that impressed me back in that glorious age of complete incompatibility). :-) A couple of mags were publishing strips for that thingy. > Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night > and a large load of classic equipment was stolen Ouch! Nightmare come true... OTOH, I just want to *see* the expression on the face of anyone braking into my place and finding it stacked from floor to ceiling with hardware. Then, of course, I'd love to see their expression when they try to fence the goodies. > I have mounted razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they > found them when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite > gratifying. Excellent! The Bastard Classic Computer Collector From Hell strikes! I think you ought to have mounted razor blades on some of the machines as well. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Mon May 19 22:17:22 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <338214ba.7071813@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 19 May 1997 05:27:50 +0100 (BST), someone said: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. There was a thing called Oscar for the TI-99/4A and other systems. Some magazines printed both human-readable printed listings and Oscar-readable code. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From danjo at xnet.com Mon May 19 23:45:34 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well - DEC STEPS IN! In-Reply-To: <9705092153.AA20915@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Looky what I just found! (I am sure others have seen it too. 8-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: SEE_SIG@NOSPAM.COM (Bruce Lane) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.sys.pdp11 >Subject: My God... DEC actually GIVING this away?!? >Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:15:22 GMT >Message-ID: <33840823.113858369@news.wizards.net> If anyone feels that posting this to three groups constitutes spamming, well, all I can say in my defense is that I felt all the DECfolk who read these groups should know the good news. ;-) Check out this little snippet I got from the mailing list PORT-VAX for NetBSD... -=-=- -=-=- >Return-Path: >From: Gordon Zaft >Subject: hobbyist VMS licenses >To: port-vax@netbsd.org >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:12:52 -0700 (MST) >Sender: port-vax-owner@NetBSD.ORG >Delivered-To: port-vax@NetBSD.ORG This isn't strictly a NetBSD thing but DEC and DECUS have just announced that they are making hobbyist licenses for VAX/VMS available for FREE through DECUS. Check the following URL for more info: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ GZ -- Gordon C. Zaft zaft@artisoft.com Product Configuration Coordinator Opinions are my own. Artisoft, Inc. +1 (520) 670-7050 (FAX) http://www.u.arizona.edu/~zaft -=-=- -=-=- Personally, I think this is TERRIFIC news! Both DEC and DECUS deserve, in my eyes, a big round of applause for this. Anyway... I've already signed up for DECUS and checked out the Web site. Soon as I get my DECUS ID number, I'm ordering both license and media (the media kit on CD-ROM is only $30.00). Banzai! OpenVMS Lives!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK Who has a 11/780 they don't need!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BC From dastar at crl.com Tue May 20 02:38:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4 Message-ID: Anyone ever heard of a Kaypro 4? I know what the Kaypro is, but this specific model? When was it released and what does it run? What type of CPU does it have? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From eifs at thenet.co.uk Tue May 20 03:37:45 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Radionic In-Reply-To: <338214ba.7071813@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Can anyone help me with an old computer I found at a car boot sale recently? (I find it hard to leave them there to their fate). It's called a Radionic R1001. The odd thing about it is it has ten 3.5mm jacks on it, six along the back and four down the side, none of which can be for cassette leads as it has them attatched already. Anyone know anything about it?? Eifion Bedford - Owner of ZX80, ZX81, Spectrums, QLs, Sinclair PC200, SAM Coupe, Z88, CBM64, BBC 'B', Electron, Amiga 4000. Oh yes, and a Pentium PC (sorry). From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue May 20 07:47:11 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4 Message-ID: <9704208641.AA864141503@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> >Anyone ever heard of a Kaypro 4? I know what the Kaypro is, but this >specific model? When was it released and what does it run? What type of >CPU does it have? Gee. One I can answer. I'm not a collector like you folks, but I did use Kaypros and other CP/M machines for about a decade. The Kaypro 4 is your basic Kaypro transportable with a Z80 CPU (probably 4 MHz) and 64K RAM. It has two DSDD floppies which give 390K each in Kaypro's format, which is where the "4" comes from. At some point in 1984 or later, Kaypro switched from using Roman to Arabic numerals. Thus the 4, as opposed to the IV, is a later machine. Some of the later machines had a built in 300 bps modem, but if memory serves those all had "X" suffixes, as in Kaypro 2X (which paradoxically also had DSDD floppies, not the SSDDs of the Kaypro II). --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From kunz at germany.cerf.net Tue May 20 07:43:42 1997 From: kunz at germany.cerf.net (Karlheinz Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Informations about Wang and Nixdorf Message-ID: <199705201243.OAA01349@cgi-sun1.germany.cerf.net.> Hi, I have a few old computers at home up and running, but without documentation. Does someone has information about the following systems or can point me to a source of information (servers, books, software) ? Vendor: System: Operating System: Wang OIS 140/III OIS 9.9 Nixdorf 8870 Niros DEC uVAX II netBSD Epson HX-20 Basic Hitachi 6805 developing system The uVAX is common, but Informations about the Wang and Nixdorf are hard to find. Thanks for any help, -- Karlheinz From gram at cnct.com Tue May 20 09:25:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Excellent! The Bastard Classic Computer Collector From Hell strikes! I > think you ought to have mounted razor blades on some of the machines as > well. Ah. Another fan of Simon Travaglia (an AIX sysadmin like myself). I remember back in '89 when the store for which I was performing tech support received the first thirty or so NCR "Heisenberg" (NCR used to use the names of famous scientists for their development code names) 80386sx low-profile desktop systems to reach the US from the factory in West Germany. It wasn't scheduled to be announced for another couple of months, but we had a _good_ customer that had pull in Dayton. It was obvious that the factory wasn't geared up for production on these beasts as yet -- the edges of the cases weren't milled. When we opened them up to add memory, disk, etc., we found lots of bloodstains and left no few of our own. Well, I'd always heard those Krauts were efficient about keeping things running on schedule. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue May 20 10:08:08 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Anyone know what happened to OpenMVS? (Feels like Unix, works like MVS) > IBM was pushing it in some Unix rags a few years ago. It exists. I haven't used it much, as I babysit RS/6000 systems, not big iron. It does have a _few_ places where an old Unix hack like myself will trip over mainframe conventions that I have little experience with. But it runs here at the Prudential in Roseland NJ. Hell, it even supports Samba -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 20 22:04:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: Mail Basics Message-ID: ClassicCmp Regular Posting Mailing Lists and How to Talk to the List Robot Last Rev: 5/2/97 This message is posted with frequency proportional to subscription rate (or monthly). Point of contact: Bill Whitson (bcw@u.washington.edu) Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. That's the basics. If you need to know more just drop me a line at bcw@u.washington.edu. Some requests may take a couple days as I just don't know that much about the list processor ;). From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 20 22:50:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ Message-ID: ============================================================================ ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.3 Last Update: 5/2/97 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New section 2.8 New section 3.3 New section 4.3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- About ClassicCmp ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collecting ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardware and Media ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 7. Media -------- 7.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 7.4 What disk sizes are there? 7.5 How do I take care of old media? 8. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 8.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 8.3 How about capacitors? 8.4 Anything else? 8.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 9.2 What's the best way to back up my software? ============================================================================ 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? Any computer that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. We all have our opinions about MS and their products but it's best to stick to discussing them in reference to _Classic_ computers. MS bashing is not only off-topic but potentially insulting to those members of the list who work for them. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 230, fluxing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your wife of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, etc. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Hopefully this will prevent frying the rest of the machine with a flaky power supply. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. [][][][][][][][][][] 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. [][][][][][][][][][] 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. To my knowledge it was never used with 3.5 inch disks. 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density High Density High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. 7.4 What disk sizes are there? Physically? There are 8 inch, 5.25 inch, and 3.5 inch as "standard" disks. There are also some unique and/or short-lived sizes such as 3 inch disks used by Amstrad and 2 inch disks which were pioneered for use in laptops and then quickly forgotten. 7.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 8.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 8.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 8.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From george.lin at documentum.com Tue May 20 23:36:02 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520213602.00a75bc0@lion.documentum.com> Hello, I will visit Los Angeles over the Memorial Day weekend. Are there any good thrift shops in the area? Thanks. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, plus/4, Compaq, Eagle II, KayPro II, Nintendo NES, Osborne 1 TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From danjo at xnet.com Wed May 21 00:14:06 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all 8-) I noticed a small problem in the FAQ, Bill. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html should be http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html At least, the first didn't work for me and the second did 8-) BC From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 21 02:49:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970520213602.00a75bc0@lion.documentum.com> from "George Lin" at May 20, 97 09:36:02 pm Message-ID: <9705210649.AA11481@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 711 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970520/a83bd7aa/attachment.ksh From idavis at comland.com Wed May 21 08:54:35 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521135435.008dab40@mail.comland.com > At 11:49 PM 5/20/97 -0800, you Tim wrote: >Also some excellent military electronic surplus. I once found almost all the >components needed to build a Sidewinder missile there. Gyros, >radar domes, infrared sensors, the works. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > A true hacker. Why go waste all that money on a pre-assembled Sidewinder missile when you can just go get all of the parts and put it together yourself. Plus, the pride you will feel when your baby takes off and blows something up. There's nothing like it. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From transit at primenet.com Wed May 21 10:18:53 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:27 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970520213602.00a75bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 1997, George Lin wrote: > Hello, > > I will visit Los Angeles over the Memorial Day weekend. Are there any good > thrift shops in the area? Thanks. More than one could count, almost (although, contents are not guaranteed). I'd find some LA-area phone books (or maybe use www.zip2.com) and search under "Thrift Shops". Remember, LA sprawls, so plan your trip carefully. Let me know if you need any help in regards to freeways, rough areas, etc. (Too bad you won't be hanging around on May 31, or you could try your luck at the TRW swap meet in Redondo Beach--more stuff than you could shake a stick at) From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed May 21 13:08:26 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: FS: Radio Shack 5 MB Ext Hard Drive (Ebay) Message-ID: <33833A1A.6DA6@oboe.calpoly.edu> I have a RS TRS-80 5 Meg external hard drive on the auction at Ebay. It's in good physical condition but I don't know the working condition. Someone pulled one of the interface cables out. There is a picture and a little more info in the listing. Only going for $20 so far. Auction ends Thursday 1:15 PM. http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=inz25894 Thanks, Greg From gram at cnct.com Wed May 21 14:00:34 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: A Tragedy Averted Message-ID: Here in New Jersey, many towns have periodic "cleanout" garbage collections in which the residents are allowed to throw away just about anything their hearts no longer desire. Furniture, appliances, you name it -- they'll pick it up and cart it to a landfill. There are usually lots of pickup trucks and vans roaming the streets the night before, since much can be salvaged -- and there are some severely depressed areas not far away, such as Newark. Last night my fiancee spotted a serviceable couch two blocks from our house and dragged me over to help her lug it home -- we just finished a room in the attic and it needs furnishing. Two houses away from the couch someone had placed a TRS-80 Model II, its disk expansion bay, and a Line Printer VI by the curb. I could not allow this to be buried in Pennsylvania. There were also a couple of Wyse 50 terminals which will work fine on my various *nix boxen. While I was loading these treasures into the car, the perpetrator carried out sundry other (non-computer-related) items to the curb, and I asked him about the system. Seems that while it still works, he's out of space and hadn't used the system since he moved his body shop's bookkeeping systems to newer hardware. He said that he had a bunch of software in the attic, so call him in about a week. Then he brought out and presented me with a Kaypro 10. So it looks like at least part of the weekend is spoken for, while I clean these machines and check their functionality. Eight bits forever! -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 21 20:10:37 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' Message-ID: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Does anyone on this list know anything about a machine I've just rescued? It claims to be a 'Computer Automation' Naked Mini, and mine appears (alas) to be incomplete I have the 4U rack case, the backplane, frontpanel (which seems to use membrane switches and LEDs), CPU board (At least I assume that's what it is - it's got some 74x181 ALU chips on it) and 2 core memory boards. The PSU is missing, but even so I think it was worth saving. I guess I can hack something together. I have no docs on this at all, so any info would be welcome. I don't fancy working it all out my own. Talking of docs, does anyone have a copy of the I/O reference manual (or whatever the title is) for the HP9100 calculator? This manual was written for people who wanted to interface non-HP peripherals to the HP9100 (HP's first ever calculator), and contains hardware info on the connector on the back of that machine - info that's not in the operation/programming manual. I'd be interested in any info on that I/O port - I want to try a few things. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From william at ans.net Wed May 21 15:02:38 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' In-Reply-To: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705212002.AA25030@interlock.ans.net> > It claims to be a 'Computer Automation' Naked Mini, and mine appears > (alas) to be incomplete I think these things were made to be very modular. Judging from some old magazines (Electronics from the 1970s) I foolishly tossed a few years ago, users would specify what they wanted, and CA would piece a system together. I think users could even do the peicing themselves. Thus, as you find parts, you should be able to use them, even if they are for a completely different setup. I have a feeling that CAs were intended mostly for embedded use, rather than standalone systems. Other than that, I know nothing. Every so often I see boards at the fests, but pass them up. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed May 21 15:05:15 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Interesting thread/museum? In-Reply-To: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705212005.AA25321@interlock.ans.net> Check out comp.sys.cdc for a _very_ interesting thread... Also, in several of the postings, there appears to be a computer museum call "Cybertheque". I could not find a web page. Does anyone have more knowledge than I do about this organization? William Donzelli william@ans.net From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Wed May 21 15:16:13 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' In-Reply-To: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <338856d2.7914802@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 21 May 1997 20:10:37 BST, someone said: >Does anyone on this list know anything about a machine I've just rescued? > >It claims to be a 'Computer Automation' Naked Mini, and mine appears >(alas) to be incomplete > >I have the 4U rack case, the backplane, frontpanel (which seems to use >membrane switches and LEDs), CPU board (At least I assume that's what it >is - it's got some 74x181 ALU chips on it) and 2 core memory boards. > >The PSU is missing, but even so I think it was worth saving. I guess I >can hack something together. Computer Automation built a system for our Federal Aviation Administration called ARTS-II (Automated Radar Terminal System #2) What you have may be part of that product line, an off-the-shelf mini named LSI-II. The boards were huge with hundreds of chips and mounted horizontally. The power supply was rated at 70 amps on the +5 line! _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 21 21:27:11 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' In-Reply-To: <338856d2.7914802@smtp.ix.netcom.com>; from "Barry Peterson" at May 21, 97 8:16 pm Message-ID: <199705212027.4118@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Computer Automation built a system for our Federal Aviation > Administration called ARTS-II (Automated Radar Terminal System #2) > What you have may be part of that product line, an off-the-shelf mini > named LSI-II. The boards were huge with hundreds of chips and mounted > horizontally. The power supply was rated at 70 amps on the +5 line! The boards _are_ horizontal, and would contain (I guess, from memory) a couple of hundred chips. That's not what I'd call 'huge' - it's no worse than a PERQ board, or something like that. Even the first AT motherboard (I think) contained over 100 chips and wasn't exactly small. I doubt the PSU for my machine was 70A, though. It fits inside the cabinet, and from what little I saw of it, it seemed to be a linear unit. I'd have estimated about 30-40A on the 5V line. Even if it was 70A, that's not that high - it's only 350W. I've got DEC PSUs of twice that rating in use. I have a machine with _3_ 750W PSUs in it. I suspect I can easily get enough current at 5V for this machine. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From groberts at mitre.org Wed May 21 16:24:09 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970521172409.00842630@mail90> At 03:00 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Ward Griffiths wrote: >Here in New Jersey, many towns have periodic "cleanout" garbage >collections ...Last night ... someone had placed a TRS-80 Model II, its >disk expansion bay, and a Line Printer VI by the curb... >Then he brought out and presented me with a Kaypro 10. congrats! i must say that reading this list is starting to get a bit depressing. one begins to feel that if you're not routinely finding treasures in the trash or S100 systems for $2 you're just not with it. i guess patience will ultimately win out though. keep searching for those treasures! - gfr +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 21 22:28:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at May 20, 97 8:50 pm Message-ID: <199705212128.7773@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > ============================================================================ > ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List > FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.3 > Last Update: 5/2/97 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope it's OK to comment on the FAQ here - there are a few things that IMHO should be expanded... It's probably better to discuss them on the list, though, rather than use private e-mail. > 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! > Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. We all have our opinions > about MS and their products but it's best to stick to discussing them in > reference to _Classic_ computers. MS bashing is not only off-topic but > potentially insulting to those members of the list who work for them. IMHO _no_ advocacy-type posts belong here - not just anti-MS ones. There are certain features of certain computers (yes, even classic ones) that I don't like (as a hardware designer, for example, I don't regard certain parts of the Apple ][ as being particularly elegant). But I don't indend to try to start flame wars here. I'll contribute to threads I am interested in, and ignore the rest. It appears that, fortunately, all other posters operate the same way. > 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? > > Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done > before that power switch gets flipped. > > Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're > looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown > caps and resistors, etc. You can avoid a number of problems just > by taking a peek inside. Also look for dry joints (broken solder connections), IC's with pins bent under, etc. If you like, reseat all internal connectors. You may cure a number of faults by doing that. If anything looks overheated or burnt out, take great care. Some damage may already have been done, but you want to ensure no further problems occur. > If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and > dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. Also, if you have the knowledge, equipment (a _good_ logic analyser, which is not the sort of thing most hobbyists have) and time, it may be worth grabbing waveforms arround irreplaceable custom chips when you first power up the machine This information may be very useful if you even need to recreate them. On the other hand, knowing what to record, and what to relate it to, is often non-obvious. > > Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and > start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been > recommended as a convenient load. These should be available > from any decent Volkswagen shop. Hopefully this will prevent frying > the rest of the machine with a flaky power supply. You may want to > check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where > near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect > a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from The point of the dummy load is to protect the PSU. Some switch-mode PSUs (that's the type used on a large number of computers, including almost all PCs) will fail if turned on with no load, even if working properly. This would probably be mentioned in the tech manual, but you probably don't have that. Related to the last comment: A remarkably large number of machines used 'standard' PSU modules, which were not built by the company that built the rest of the machine. PSU details/schematics may well not be in the service manual, which is a right pain, since PSU problems are probably the most common fault of all. Sometimes the company that built the PSU will supply their own service manual, but often you have to work blind. > [][][][][][][][][][] > > 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? > > Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try > soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes I've found a product called 'Antistatic foam cleaner' produced by Electrolube to be _excellent_ at cleaning computer cases. In the UK, you can get that from Maplin. It's not cheap, but it works. > > Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good > for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a > different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the > connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large > number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from > components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to > promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some > softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Again, Electrolube produce a couple of contact-cleaning sprays. One is 99% propan-2-ol, and is safe on just about anything. The other one _may_ attack some plastics (although not circuit boards AFAIK), but deals with dirtier parts. Again, available from Maplin, expensive, but useful. > > Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice > job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you > put any power to them. I normally pull the keycaps (make a chart showing how to put them back - squared graph paper is handy here), and clean them like I clean the cases. > 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? [...] > specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of > differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 > sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard > sectoring. To my knowledge it was never used with 3.5 inch disks. There couldn't be a hard-sectored 3.5" disk. Unlike the larger sizes, the index sensor in a 3.5" drive doesn't detect a hole in the disk - it detects a magnet or hole in the rotor of the spindle motor (It's shown in the Teac FD235 service manual, for example). The 3.5" disk is aligned on the spindle when the disk is inserted, so that the position of the index pulse relates to the correct position on the disk. Since the sensor only produces one pulse per disk revolution, it's impossible (no matter what you do to the disk) to have a hard-sectored 3.5" floppy in the traditional sense. > 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? > > Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general > the following substitutions may be made: > > Desired Format Substitute > --------------------------------------------------- > Single Density Double Density > Double Density none reliably > Quad Density High Density No! The media _is_ different magnetically. Quad density (80trk 5.25" disks with about 700-800K capacity) drives will not reliably work with high density (1.2Mbyte) media. Please don't do it. [... Irreplaceable components] > Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going > to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible > to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, > etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- > ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. > No, but some minicomputer enthusiasts do repair demountable drives, like RK05's at home... Doing a head swap is fun (for suitable values of 'fun'). > 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? > > This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways > seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- > riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). > >From there you can transfer the data to either a CD-ROM - convenient > but not long term reliable storage or to mylar tape which may be > inconvenient - but the official word on how long it lasts is "Damn near > forever." I do not know what equipment is necessary to read and write > punch tape but I'm sure someone will bring it up. Writing : A good, fast paper tape punch. I recomend a Facit 4070 (easy to maintain, runs for ever, trivial to link to a PC parallel port)), or a Teletype BRPE (a little faster, more work to interface and keep going). Reading : A pair of eyes :-). Oh, you want to do it automatically? In that case, a good _optical_ tape reader. If you can find one (and they sometimes turn up in the UK), get a Trend 700. They are _very_ kind to the tapes, unlike some lesser readers that can mangle sproket holes (or worse data holes) in the event of a tape jam. Of course, those are classic peripherals in their own right, and could probably be discussed here (we can talk about peripherals, and not just CPUs, right?) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed May 21 18:11:07 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: <199705212128.7773@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi all. First - let me just say that I'm the ideal tester of my own FAQ as I'm the one asking most of the "dumb" questions ;) > > 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! > > IMHO _no_ advocacy-type posts belong here - not just anti-MS ones. There > are certain features of certain computers (yes, even classic ones) that I > don't like (as a hardware designer, for example, I don't regard certain > parts of the Apple ][ as being particularly elegant). But I don't indend > to try to start flame wars here. I'll contribute to threads I am > interested in, and ignore the rest. It appears that, fortunately, all > other posters operate the same way. Well, I wasn't singling out MS for exemption - I just thought it was an entertaining heading ;). The example applies to everything. IMO, it's fine to post an opinion that some product was poorly designed or implemented and spawn a discussion about that. It's these design flubs and quirks of the industry that have moved the evolution of computers. It's another thing entirely to say Company X sucks and employs only incompetent morons. No useful discussion can be extracted from such a post. I will generalize the section. You'll have to excuse my paranoia - but I've reached a point where so many groups/lists I used to read have degenerated that I really try to head things off here. I'm the only hair-trigger asshole allowed ;) > > 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? > > Also look for dry joints (broken solder connections), IC's with pins bent > under, etc. If you like, reseat all internal connectors. You may cure a > number of faults by doing that. > > If anything looks overheated or burnt out, take great care. Some damage > may already have been done, but you want to ensure no further problems > occur. Good advice - I'll add it. > > If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and > > dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. > > Also, if you have the knowledge, equipment (a _good_ logic analyser, which > is not the sort of thing most hobbyists have) and time, it may be worth > grabbing waveforms arround irreplaceable custom chips when you first power > up the machine This information may be very useful if you even need to > recreate them. On the other hand, knowing what to record, and what to > relate it to, is often non-obvious. I'll add this. I can't speak for other members of the list but I suspect many may be in the same boat as I. I only started accumulating equipment about 5 years ago and I've learned everything I know about electronics in the process of attempting to fix the various things I've picked up. Even if someone gave me a logic analyzer I couldn't do a damn thing with it. To be honest - I don't really have a solid concept of what a logic analyzer does ;). My main tool is a DMM and I've barely come to understand what I can do with it ;). I've got an oscilloscope but that's only so I can align floppy drives - that's the only trick I know how to do with it. I can dump a copy of an EPROM but I'd be hard-pressed to copy anything else. The recommendations in the FAQ have already surpassed my ability to use them. I've gotten into collecting old computers because I enjoyed using them as a kid - my problem now is that some of what I own may be slipping away faster than I can learn how to fix it! > > Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and > > start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been > > The point of the dummy load is to protect the PSU. Some switch-mode > PSUs (that's the type used on a large number of computers, including > almost all PCs) will fail if turned on with no load, even if working > properly. This would probably be mentioned in the tech manual, but you > probably don't have that. > > Related to the last comment: A remarkably large number of machines used > 'standard' PSU modules, which were not built by the company that built the > rest of the machine. PSU details/schematics may well not be in the service > manual, which is a right pain, since PSU problems are probably the most > common fault of all. Sometimes the company that built the PSU will supply > their own service manual, but often you have to work blind. More good info which I will add. > > 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? > > I've found a product called 'Antistatic foam cleaner' produced by > Electrolube to be _excellent_ at cleaning computer cases. > > In the UK, you can get that from Maplin. It's not cheap, but it works. > > Again, Electrolube produce a couple of contact-cleaning sprays. One is 99% > propan-2-ol, and is safe on just about anything. The other one _may_ > attack some plastics (although not circuit boards AFAIK), but deals with > dirtier parts. Again, available from Maplin, expensive, but useful. > > > > Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice > > job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you > > put any power to them. > > I normally pull the keycaps (make a chart showing how to put them back - > squared graph paper is handy here), and clean them like I clean the cases. > > > > 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? > > There couldn't be a hard-sectored 3.5" disk. Unlike the larger sizes, the > index sensor in a 3.5" drive doesn't detect a hole in the disk - it > detects a magnet or hole in the rotor of the spindle motor (It's shown in > the Teac FD235 service manual, for example). The 3.5" disk is aligned on > the spindle when the disk is inserted, so that the position of the index > pulse relates to the correct position on the disk. > > Since the sensor only produces one pulse per disk revolution, it's > impossible (no matter what you do to the disk) to have a hard-sectored > 3.5" floppy in the traditional sense. Great - I'll update that! > > 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? > > > > Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general > > the following substitutions may be made: > > > > Desired Format Substitute > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Single Density Double Density > > Double Density none reliably > > Quad Density High Density > > No! The media _is_ different magnetically. Quad density (80trk 5.25" disks > with about 700-800K capacity) drives will not reliably work with high > density (1.2Mbyte) media. Please don't do it. Hrm. I have done this rather successfully in the past. I know the media is different (ferrite vs. cobalt, I think) but I have formatted and used HD disks in a QD drive without problems. At the same time I have found problems using a HD in a DD drive. I'll remove this piece to prevent problems but given the relative rarity of QD disks I'm interested to know if anyone else has found this to work. > [... Irreplaceable components] > > Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going > > to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible > > to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, > > etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- > > ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. > > > > No, but some minicomputer enthusiasts do repair demountable drives, like > RK05's at home... Doing a head swap is fun (for suitable values of 'fun'). > > > 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? > > > Writing : A good, fast paper tape punch. I recomend a Facit 4070 (easy to > maintain, runs for ever, trivial to link to a PC parallel port)), or a > Teletype BRPE (a little faster, more work to interface and keep going). > > Reading : A pair of eyes :-). Oh, you want to do it automatically? In that > case, a good _optical_ tape reader. If you can find one (and they > sometimes turn up in the UK), get a Trend 700. They are _very_ kind to the > tapes, unlike some lesser readers that can mangle sproket holes (or worse > data holes) in the event of a tape jam. > > Of course, those are classic peripherals in their own right, and could > probably be discussed here (we can talk about peripherals, and not just > CPUs, right?) You bet. If it relates to classic computers... So, assuming people other than me with little background in electronics are collecting computers and finding they need to teach themselves how to fix them what would you experts out there recommend? Books? Experimentation? (Whaddaya mean discharge the CRT? ZAP!) Give up and buy stuff that works? I don't spend a whole lot of time working on this stuff and when I do I get a sneaking suspicion that I'm not as smart as I think I am. Later, Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From scott at saskatoon.com Wed May 21 18:27:21 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? > > > > > > Quad Density High Density > > > > No! The media _is_ different magnetically. Quad density (80trk 5.25" > > disks > > with about 700-800K capacity) drives will not reliably work with high > > density (1.2Mbyte) media. Please don't do it. > > Hrm. I have done this rather successfully in the past. I know the > media > is different (ferrite vs. cobalt, I think) but I have formatted and used > HD disks in a QD drive without problems. At the same time I have found > problems using a HD in a DD drive. I'll remove this piece to prevent > problems but given the relative rarity of QD disks I'm interested to > know if anyone else has found this to work. I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? ttfn srw From william at ans.net Wed May 21 19:47:05 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705220047.AB19728@interlock.ans.net> > > Also, if you have the knowledge, equipment (a _good_ logic analyser, which > > is not the sort of thing most hobbyists have) and time, it may be worth > > grabbing waveforms arround irreplaceable custom chips when you first power > > up the machine This information may be very useful if you even need to > > recreate them. On the other hand, knowing what to record, and what to > > relate it to, is often non-obvious. I agree that this is a good idea, as many of these chips will be quite rare in the future. I must add that trying to crack the logic of a chip larger than a simple PAL would be a serious task. Simple 1000 gate ASICs would be next to impossible. Even for classic computers, a 1000 gate ASIC is small. If a custom logic chip has any sort of complex state machine (nearly all do), simple probing will probably never reveal all of the states. By all means, try to read out the contents of PALs - many never have their protection bits turned on. Blank PALs are plentiful (stock up on them now!) - burn a replica and see if it works. And of course, grab hold of every spare chip available off of donor machines. William Donzelli william@ans.net From pcoad at crl.com Wed May 21 20:10:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: collectin depression was:Re: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521172409.00842630@mail90> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > congrats! i must say that reading this list is starting to get a bit > depressing. one begins to feel that if you're not routinely finding > treasures in the trash or S100 systems for $2 you're just not with it. i > guess patience will ultimately win out though. keep searching for those > treasures! > I've had a pretty good string of luck lately. I had a dry spell of about six months which ended shortly before the list started up. Collecting good computers requires a good deal of patience. But once you make that incredible find, this list is the best place to brag/crow/share the joy. Most of the people I know couldn't care less about my latest prize. Most have reactions like: "ANOTHER, computer? How many do you have NOW? You paid money for a computer that doesn't run WINDOWS? Where are you going to buy software for it?" Gak! The people on this list also understand why you are excited when you have a good outing. Keep looking. You'll have your chances to make us drool. We'll be here when you find an unused PDP-8 in a dumpster behind your building. Happy hunting, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From idavis at comland.com Wed May 21 21:07:17 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips Message-ID: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> At 08:47 PM 5/21/97 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >And of course, grab hold of every spare chip available off of donor machines. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 23:03:52 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > If anyone else knows of a cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it > with us. How about old PC cards? Those are a penny a dozen. Some have really useful stuff on them (assuming they're not old enough to be classics, like the original IBM MDA driving my second screen). You could also try old PC motherboards. They're very cheap and have big EPROMs. My personal favourite is scavenging old [S]VGA cards. These are *REALLY* cheap or even free (esp. the 256k RAM ones). A lot have EPROMs to store their BIOS and character set. (Around 6-7 years ago, the norm in my country of origin was to burn a new character set into EPROMs and replace the ones on the VGA. Later they found out that was too slow and expensive, so they stuck with soft fonts. Maybe things are similar in your respective loci). While we're talking about EPROMs, anyone care to suggest a cheap burner? Preferably one I can buy in the UK, but any ideas would be lovely. I've looked at some, but they're all in the UKP250+ price range. I'm seriously considering building my own... --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From dastar at crl.com Wed May 21 22:55:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! > > > > Well, I wasn't singling out MS for exemption - I just thought it was an > entertaining heading ;). The example applies to everything. IMO, it's <...> > post. I will generalize the section. No, keep the heading. I like it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 21 23:05:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: collectin depression was:Re: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > > > congrats! i must say that reading this list is starting to get a bit > > depressing. one begins to feel that if you're not routinely finding > > treasures in the trash or S100 systems for $2 you're just not with it. i > > guess patience will ultimately win out though. keep searching for those > > treasures! > > The people on this list also understand why you are excited when you have > a good outing. Keep looking. You'll have your chances to make us drool. > We'll be here when you find an unused PDP-8 in a dumpster behind your > building. I suggest trying all the thrift shops within a 25-30 miles radius of your house. The thrift shops in my town have yieled one IBM PC manual, and that's it. Very frustrating. Then the other day while travelling through a city over the hill I decided to try a couple thrift shops there. So I found some in the yellow pages and made a visit. It was well worth it. I picked up a TRS-80 CoCo2 for $.99 (yes, ninety-nine cents) and an Atari 800XL with a 1050 drive for anoter $3.98. Plus some other miscellany. The other thrift shop yielded about 3 C64's, 2 commodore disk drives, an intellivision, an Atari 5200, 2 Atari 2600s, 2 Odyssey2's, a TI-99/4a and some sundry carthridges for all the above...total bill was $32. I managed to talk the proprietor down from the $10.99 to $45.99 they were asking for each unit to $5 each, and then I got a 50% discount on top of that. That's another suggestion...learn to bargain. It's always in your best interest to bargain. Figure it this way: it's probably something you're not going to walk away from anyway (especially if it's like an Osbourne 1 or something) and you may as well get at least a couple bucks knocked off of it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 21 23:06:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. This is a great suggestion, worthy of the FAQ. Beware that you don't cannabalize what could be considered a classic peripheral though. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed May 21 23:47:44 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips Message-ID: <199705220445.VAA15398@mx2.u.washington.edu> > > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was > looking at > > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what > looked > > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, > and it was > > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store > for $2.00 > > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the > eprom by > > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I > am going > > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems > and > > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem > for > > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else > knows of a > > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. > > >This is a great suggestion, worthy of the FAQ. Beware that you don't > > >cannabalize what could be considered a classic peripheral though. > > We pretty much cleaned out the Dallas 1st Saturday sale a few months > ago of cheap boards that had eproms. Gobs of 2764's for $0.25, plenty > o 27128's, but very few bigger chips. One notable exception. Some > strange board in a tiny pizzal style box. for $10 we got 4x 1-meg > 80-ns 30-pin simms, a 27128, and *8* 27010's and a few other useful > chips. > > -Mp > From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 11:43:58 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at May 21, 97 4:11 pm Message-ID: <199705221044.25032@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Advocacy, etc] > Well, I wasn't singling out MS for exemption - I just thought it was an > entertaining heading ;). The example applies to everything. IMO, it's Agreed, keep the heading - it is entertaining. I just think you should possibly expand the text under it. > fine to post an opinion that some product was poorly designed or > implemented and spawn a discussion about that. It's these design flubs A reasoned discussion of poor designs is (IMHO) fine. Notice the 'reasoned'. It's especially useful when the design fault can cause further damage - a trivial example is that on some PERQ hard disk interface boards (the so-called 5.25" DIB), a loss of the +5V line can corrupt entire tracks on the hard disk. This is a design error (they used totem-pole drivers, not open collector ones), and it can cause the loss of data. > and quirks of the industry that have moved the evolution of computers. > It's another thing entirely to say Company X sucks and employs only > incompetent morons. No useful discussion can be extracted from such a > post. I will generalize the section. Agreed 100%. Lets keep that off this list. It benefits nobody. > I'll add this. I can't speak for other members of the list but I > suspect many may be in the same boat as I. I only started accumulating I suspect there are all levels of knowledge on this list, which is a good thing. Tips should therefore be aimed at all levels of knowledge, from those who are starting out (like explicit instructions on how to test a linear PSU) up to those who'd quite happily redesign the machine given half a chance :-) > equipment about 5 years ago and I've learned everything I know about > electronics in the process of attempting to fix the various things I've I learnt a lot about processor design by working on old minicomputers and workstations. It's one thing to read about a fetch/execute cycle, it's quite another to trace it in the microcode, see what gates are enabled and when and watch the data moving about on a 'scope or analyser screen. However, this won't teach you basic electronics. That's something best learnt by experimenting with _replaceable_ components - not strange chips from a classic computer. I'll recomend 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill as a good book to learn from, but feel free to recomend others. > picked up. Even if someone gave me a logic analyzer I couldn't do a > damn thing with it. To be honest - I don't really have a solid concept > of what a logic analyzer does ;). My main tool is a DMM and I've barely It's basically a special-purpose storage 'scope that works with digital signals only, and displays the timing relationships between them. Very useful for figuring out what a circuit is doing. > come to understand what I can do with it ;). I've got an oscilloscope > but that's only so I can align floppy drives - that's the only trick > I know how to do with it. I can dump a copy of an EPROM but I'd be If you can dump an EPROM, then, given the appropriate programmer, you can dump anything else - it's the same process. Stick in the chip and hit 'read' :-) > hard-pressed to copy anything else. The recommendations in the FAQ have > already surpassed my ability to use them. > > I've gotten into collecting old computers because I enjoyed using them > as a kid - my problem now is that some of what I own may be slipping > away faster than I can learn how to fix it! Don't worry. Post the problems here, and I'm sure somebody can help you out. It's a little difficult talking you through a repair remotely, but it can be done. [QD vs HD] > Hrm. I have done this rather successfully in the past. I know the media > is different (ferrite vs. cobalt, I think) but I have formatted and used > HD disks in a QD drive without problems. At the same time I have found You were lucky. I've had a lot of problems trying this. In fact, a _good_ (branded) DD disk may well be a better bet. > problems using a HD in a DD drive. I'll remove this piece to prevent > problems but given the relative rarity of QD disks I'm interested to > know if anyone else has found this to work. > > Of course, those are classic peripherals in their own right, and could > > probably be discussed here (we can talk about peripherals, and not just > > CPUs, right?) > > You bet. If it relates to classic computers... Yes, I was talking about either classic peripherals (Sanders printers, Versatec electrostatic plotters, paper tape stuff, card readers, etc), peripherals for classic computers (1541's, etc), or peripherals used for restoring classic computers (paper tape readers linked to PC's,etc). It's obvious that Windows printing problems don't (in general) belong here. > > So, assuming people other than me with little background in electronics > are collecting computers and finding they need to teach themselves how > to fix them what would you experts out there recommend? Books? > Experimentation? (Whaddaya mean discharge the CRT? ZAP!) Give up and Well, a combination of reading and experimentation. You'll come up against a large range of circuits when you seriously get into restoration - everything from 1000 gate+ digital systems with obscure timing faults, to switch mode PSUs, to monitors, to electromechanical stuff, etc. Most faults seem to be PSU/monitor related, thankfully. Books on TV repair exist, and many are very good. The circuits used in TVs are similar to those used in computers/monitors, and the same repair tricks work. The monthly magazine 'Television' (available in the UK) taught me how to fix power supplies. > buy stuff that works? I don't spend a whole lot of time working on Repairing them is half the fun... > this stuff and when I do I get a sneaking suspicion that I'm not as > smart as I think I am. > > Later, > Bill -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 11:48:13 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: ; from "Scott Walde" at May 21, 97 5:27 pm Message-ID: <199705221048.25207@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) > disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the Yes, I've had success doing that as well.... > magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed > tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? That would appear to be correct. The difference between a DD and a QD drive is pretty minimal on the electronic side, so the disks should be interchangeable. > > ttfn > srw > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 11:50:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: <199705220047.AB19728@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at May 21, 97 8:47 pm Message-ID: <199705221050.25244@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I agree that this is a good idea, as many of these chips will be quite > rare in the future. I must add that trying to crack the logic of a chip > larger than a simple PAL would be a serious task. Simple 1000 gate ASICs > would be next to impossible. Even for classic computers, a 1000 gate ASIC > is small. It depends on how much you already know about the functionality of the chip. If you have the service manual that describes what the chip is for, and roughly what the external signals are, then often a logic analyser will give you enough info to recreate the chip. If you have no idea what the chip is for, then you probably haven't a hope of decoding it. > By all means, try to read out the contents of PALs - many never have > their protection bits turned on. Blank PALs are plentiful (stock up on > them now!) - burn a replica and see if it works. You can replace most PALs with correcly programmed GALs, which are still being made AFAIK. This may not be historically correct, but it will get the machine running again. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From gram at cnct.com Thu May 22 07:28:19 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) > disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the > magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed > tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? Shortly after my RSCC received its first Tandy 2000, I took an old Model One diskette (SSSD, 35-Track) and formatted it in the T2K with full verify enabled. It formatted fine with only two bad tracks reported (the diskette was at least four years old, and had been reused many times). Of course, back in those days I wasn't bright enough to place some data on that diskette, put it in a safe place for a year, then check it for data retention. I just wanted to see how it would format. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu May 22 07:36:22 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: <199705221044.25032@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Yes, I was talking about either classic peripherals (Sanders printers, > Versatec electrostatic plotters, paper tape stuff, card readers, etc), > peripherals for classic computers (1541's, etc), or peripherals used for > restoring classic computers (paper tape readers linked to PC's,etc). It's > obvious that Windows printing problems don't (in general) belong here. Unless of course it's trying to create a driver for an old Base2 printer of something equivalently old and bizarre. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu May 22 07:49:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I _hate_ having to follow-up my own message, but errors of fact must be corrected after being exposed to daylight. On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > someone had placed a TRS-80 Model II, its disk expansion bay, and a Line > Printer VI by the curb. I could not allow this to be buried in > Pennsylvania. There were also a couple of Wyse 50 terminals which will First error. One is a Wyse 50 and therefore useful. The other is a Wyse 30, a rather less useful terminal. Emergency console for my Sun 4 is about it. Keyword: standout glitch. > newer hardware. He said that he had a bunch of software in the attic, so > call him in about a week. Then he brought out and presented me with a > Kaypro 10. So it looks like at least part of the weekend is spoken for, Hey, it was late (23:00), it was dark, I'd been up since 05:30, and I was too ecstatic about the Model II to look closely -- I just stuffed things into the back seat of the car. Upon taking things out yestereve while there was still light, it turns out that the machine is a Kaypro 16, not a 10. A classic in its own way, but not as exciting to me. Oh, well. It's time for me to contact every bloody municipality in northern New Jersey and find out when they have their own cleanouts. Oh yeah, and check out the thrift stores in a few more towns. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 04:12:31 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1EitjDA$3AhzEwbn@paladio.demon.co.uk> In article , Alexios Chouchoulas > > While we're talking about EPROMs, anyone care to suggest a cheap burner? >Preferably one I can buy in the UK, but any ideas would be lovely. I've >looked at some, but they're all in the UKP250+ price range. I'm seriously >considering building my own... > Alexios Maplin do two under 200UKP - the EPP1-F at 162.99 and the EPP-2 199.99 (both prices inclusive of VAT). I bought a EPP1-F a long time ago at one company I worked at and it seemed OK for small EPROMS/EEPROMS (up to 128k x 8. Comes with a DOS-based editor and utilities but claims to work on any computer with an RS232 and terminal software. From tomph at ix.netcom.com Thu May 22 04:18:41 1997 From: tomph at ix.netcom.com (Tom Phelan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Heath Message-ID: <199705221507.KAA14007@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> Hi Ward, Would you let me know if you still want this Heath. It's been sitting in a box in my van for over a week now. If you don't want it I'll give it to someone else. If you do want it, can we make some arrangement for the transfer. I have to move it out of here by Wednesday, next week so, if I don't hear from you by Sat. I'll assume your not interested. Thanks Tom From william at ans.net Thu May 22 10:27:46 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: <199705221527.AA29102@interlock.ans.net> > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. Hamfests are the best place to pick up spare chips. Many vendors are simply regular guys just trying to clean out their basements, others are psuedo-commercial vendors. Of course, it is just a big crap shoot - some fests have yeilded only boards with standard TTL/CMOS, other fests have yeilded more exotic species ($2000 1M Rad-Hard EEPROMS (buck a tube!), GaAs glue logic, early weird 68000 variants, etc.). Of course, the chances of finding exactly what you need on the first try is, by Murphy's Law, slim (it does, however, justify going to every hamfest possible!). I must caution that we must be careful what we scrap - for example, I am pretty sure I scrapped out a bunch of CA Naked Mini (sound familiar?) boards three years back. Many boards to classic minicomputers are not distinctive at all (Data General leaps to mind), but are in demand. They same holds true for peripherals. I think we should use this list when we need parts. Some of us probably have mountains of chips (at least I do). If you need a specific chip, post something to the list - perhaps one of us has a tube of the things we never knew we needed. I do not think anyone here is out to make money on such small deals. Regarding EPROMS and PALs: I would stock up on them, as both are becoming obsolete. Flash technology has nearly wiped out EPROM demand, just as GALs and FPGAs are pushing out PALs. And if you see ANY early or wierd EPROMs, namely 1702s and 2532s, GET THEM. Today they are quite rare, tommorrow they will be gone. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu May 22 11:41:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Dead PET for free Message-ID: Here's another one. Hope someone finds a use for this... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newgroups: comp.sys.cbm Subject: (fwd) Take my PET, please! Ok, forgive the corny subject line... I have a C=PET 4016 here that is in a serious state of disrepair. When I got it, it wasn't working and I tried to fix it up to no avail. In it's current state, it's little more than a big metal & plastic paperweight to me. I'm GIVING IT AWAY (You pay S&H) to anyone on one condition: That you try to fix 'er up or use the parts to fix another commodore computer. I don't want to see this go to the dumpster, folks. It deserves better. I'm even willing to throw in a few C64 disks for taking it away :) If interested, respond via email - dross4@niu.edu Dave Ross / Doc Watson | "Make me one with everything," said the dross4@niu.edu | Zen Buddist to the hot dog vendor. - - - - - - - - - - - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Long live the C=64/128!| http://www.cs.niu.edu/~z956832/homepage.htm -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu May 22 11:40:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80s looking for a good home Message-ID: I hope this makes it to the list. My posts haven't been showing up lately. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newgroups: comp.sys.tandy Subject: (fwd) FREE: Two TRS-80s Hello all, While cleaning my closet, I've rediscovered two Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer machines and a bunch of accessories. I'd like to give these things away to somebody with an interest in the thing rather than toss them into the dumpster. If you are interested, please respond to devolder@oakhill.sps.mot.com. Here's the contents of the box of stuff I want you to have... TRS-80 w/16K RAM TRS-80 w/32K or 64K RAM (I forget which) Tandy Cassette drive and cable 2 joysticks 2 game cartridges, Polaris and Football 1 EDTASM+ cartridge and manual TRS-80 Programming manuals (they cover BASIC and some ASM) Another book on specifically programming the TRS-80 in ASM, very good. Some magazines circa 1985 with articles on the Coco. Other literature which provide programming examples for the TRS-80. While I don't want any money for these, I will ask to be reimbursed for shipping. Please respond ASAP because I'm in the process of packing up to move. Thanks, Eric -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 18:05:25 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221527.AA29102@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at May 22, 97 11:27 am Message-ID: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at > > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked > > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was > > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 > > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by > > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going > > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and > > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for > > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a > > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. Others have said that you should be careful that what you strip for parts is not some piece of computer history. I guess you're pretty safe with 'generic' PC clone bits (although I personally preserve true-blue IBM hardware...), but anything else should probably be kept as-is if you're not sure about it. On the other hand, I got some old PCBs that had had the gold connectors cut off (for 'recycling' :-(), and I intend to at least remove the socketed IC's from those. They're mostly common 68000 stuff + ethernet + SCSI+ etc, but they are worth saving, and the boards are useless as-is. > > Hamfests are the best place to pick up spare chips. Many vendors are > simply regular guys just trying to clean out their basements, others are > psuedo-commercial vendors. Of course, it is just a big crap shoot - some > fests have yeilded only boards with standard TTL/CMOS, other fests have > yeilded more exotic species ($2000 1M Rad-Hard EEPROMS (buck a tube!), > GaAs glue logic, early weird 68000 variants, etc.). Of course, the > chances of finding exactly what you need on the first try is, by Murphy's > Law, slim (it does, however, justify going to every hamfest possible!). I'm always a little careful about buying chips at radio rallies (hamfests). They're the one thing I can't fix if they are defective, so I don't pay that much for them. On the other hand, I do buy up 2900-series chips whenever I see them - they are sufficiently rare to be worth grabbing. Unlike valves (tubes), where a quick test with an Ohmmeter will tell you if the heater is burnt out, there's no quick test for finding really dud IC's AFAIK. Maybe I should design a pocket IC tester.... > > I must caution that we must be careful what we scrap - for example, I am > pretty sure I scrapped out a bunch of CA Naked Mini (sound familiar?) Argh!!! > I think we should use this list when we need parts. Some of us > probably have mountains of chips (at least I do). If you need a specific Indeed. Most serious computer collectors keep all sorts of spares in their junk box. Would you believe a spare ASR33 motor (50Hz model), head stacks for a TU16, head assemblies for Northstar disk drives, DEC flip-chip cards, Anadex printheads, etc, etc, etc. > chip, post something to the list - perhaps one of us has a tube of the > things we never knew we needed. I do not think anyone here is out to make > money on such small deals. Another thing: If you get a computer from a company, university, or similar (as opposed to a private individual), ask if they have any spares around. Sometimes all sorts of things turn up. I was once offered (along with some other people) a PDP11/34 CPU. Now, they're quite common, but also quite nice, and I grabbed one. I then asked if there were any spares available. I was then offered an assortment of DEC comms cards (DMC11's, DMR11's, KMC11's, DJ11's, etc), cables, boards, test boards, extenders, RK05 heads, alignment disks, alignment tapes, PSUs, switches, brand-new-in-bags DEC components, etc. That's just one example - it's happened several times, and you lose nothing by asking. > > Regarding EPROMS and PALs: I would stock up on them, as both are becoming > obsolete. Flash technology has nearly wiped out EPROM demand, just as GALs > and FPGAs are pushing out PALs. And if you see ANY early or wierd EPROMs, Well, yes, but I don't insist that all my machines have all-original components. If a PAL failed in my PERQ, I'd replace it with a GAL, no question. The machine would work again that way. Of course, if I then saw a suitable blank PAL I'd probably swap it in, but I'd not class it as urgent. Similarly, apart from the _strange_ 1702, it's often very easy to use larger modern EPROMs in place of older ones. Or you could use EEPROMs (Microchip et al make at least the 2K * 8 (2816) and 8K*8 (2864) ones) - the pinout is almost the same as the 2716 and 2764. If you are a purist, this probably won't help you, but I've used tricks like that to get old machines running again. I wonder how many people have noticed that if you take a 4164 64K DRAM chip (commonly available on old PC memory cards), bend up pins 1 and 8 (N/C and +5V), and solder a jumper from pin 8 to pin 9 (A7), the result will work in a 4116 socket (although using only a quarter of the chip). I used that to get a very dead Tekky graphics terminal running again when I couldn't get a 4116 in a hurry. > namely 1702s and 2532s, GET THEM. Today they are quite rare, tommorrow Don't forget the 2708 and the 3-rail 2716 (Texas Instruments). Also, how many people have programmers that can handle these? I have the original Intel programmer (part of the MCS8i) for the 1702, and a little thing that covers everything from the 2704 (! - it's a half-size 2708) to the 2732 for the other classics. The latter needs repairing, but it should be doable. Most modern programmers _cannot_ handle 3-rail EPROMs, and the manufacturers think you're mad for asking. > they will be gone. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 22 13:16:53 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at May 22, 97 06:05:25 pm Message-ID: <9705221716.AA27845@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970522/a82242db/attachment.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 18:25:04 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <9705221716.AA27845@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at May 22, 97 10:16 am Message-ID: <199705221725.22278@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > namely 1702s and 2532s, GET THEM. Today they are quite rare, tommorrow > > > > Don't forget the 2708 and the 3-rail 2716 (Texas Instruments). > > If anybody needs any of these, I've got perhaps a dozen 1702's, > several dozen 2708's, and a couple 3-rail 2716's still kicking around. > I've even got a couple of 2704's. Hang on to them - you'll need them one day (but I hardly need to tell you that, now do I :-)). There was also a half-sized 2716 - i.e 1K * 8, but single supply rail. The number was something like 2508, I think. I've seen one in use in an FTS-88 keyboard - if it ever fails, it gets replaced by 2716 with A10 soldered to ground... [...] > My 1702A programmer is a unit based on a design from a mid-70's > _Popular Electronics_ article. Toggle the addresses and data in I found the articles on the PE 'CHAMP' (the first UK computer project) the other day. One of the peripherals was the CHAMP-PROG - a 1702 programmer. There's no hope of building it today (the whole thing is based round the Intel 4040 and support devices), but I guess you could modify the design if you were desparate. > on the front panel, hit a button, and a series of RC-timed one shot's > apply the thoroughly bizarre sequence of programming voltages. Yes, the programming algorithm is somewhat strange.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From william at ans.net Thu May 22 12:56:12 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705221756.AA13701@interlock.ans.net> > On the other hand, I got some old PCBs that had had the gold connectors > cut off (for 'recycling' :-(), and I intend to at least remove the > socketed IC's from those. They're mostly common 68000 stuff + ethernet + > SCSI+ etc, but they are worth saving, and the boards are useless as-is. An excellent source, and it removes the dilemma of scrapping a goodie. > I'm always a little careful about buying chips at radio rallies > (hamfests). They're the one thing I can't fix if they are defective, so I > don't pay that much for them. On the other hand, I do buy up 2900-series > chips whenever I see them - they are sufficiently rare to be worth > grabbing. I have had very good luck at the fests. Sure, some may be duds, but I would wager that the number is probably less than 1 in 1000 (except for SIMMs - there are at least a few scumbags out there peddling known defective parts). > Argh!!! Sorry. > Indeed. Most serious computer collectors keep all sorts of spares in their > junk box. Would you believe a spare ASR33 motor (50Hz model), head stacks > for a TU16, head assemblies for Northstar disk drives, DEC flip-chip > cards, Anadex printheads, etc, etc, etc. Same here. About two years ago I was helping clear out a warehouse and I took home hundreds of cardboard bins, so some of the junk is actually getting sorted! > Don't forget the 2708 and the 3-rail 2716 (Texas Instruments). Actually, just about any weird old chips should be grabbed. This includes all of the families that are long since gone (300 series ECL, 700 series RTL, 800 and 900 series DTL, 4000 series _TTL_, etc.). There is a company that still produces these chips (I forget the name), buying up the old masks as the original producers pull out. These new replacements, however, are priced for the insane and the U. S. government. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 19:13:14 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221756.AA13701@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at May 22, 97 1:56 pm Message-ID: <199705221813.27040@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Buying chips at hamfests....] > I have had very good luck at the fests. Sure, some may be duds, but I > would wager that the number is probably less than 1 in 1000 (except for Yes, I've had good luck as well (and from a suplus place is Southampton called 'Greenweld' who often have obscure chips at low prices). It's just more of a risk - If I buy %random old computer for a few pounds and it doesn't work, then I have a chance of repairing it, or at least extracting some useful bits from it. That's not the case if I buy a dead chip. I am quite sure that most people who sell at rallies/hamfests are honest. Every one I've dealt with has been. It's just that the chips might have been defective before he got them, and are being sold as untested. It's not easy to test some devices after all... > Actually, just about any weird old chips should be grabbed. This includes > all of the families that are long since gone (300 series ECL, 700 series > RTL, 800 and 900 series DTL, 4000 series _TTL_, etc.). Agreed. I try to rescue all I can - it's amazing what does turn up. And those are the sorts of devices I will buy at rallies - there's often no other way to get them - and they are easy to test, and pretty difficult to damage (e.g. by ESD). I don't tend to buy common EPROMs and micros, which is how this thread got started. Don't forget obscure linear devices as well. Does anyone know if the LM379S got used in any cheap 'HiFi' amplifiers, and if so, which ones? It's a dual 6W audio amplifier, which is used as a deflection amplifier in the Vectrex video game, and as a servo amplifier in the Micropolis 1200 disk drives, used in PERQ2T1's and Tekky development systems (and elsewhere). They're next to unobtainable now, so a source would be welcome. > > There is a company that still produces these chips (I forget the name), > buying up the old masks as the original producers pull out. These new > replacements, however, are priced for the insane and the U. S. government. How insane? Are these price so high that I couldn't even consider buying one, or would it be worth getting the odd device to restore a particularly rare computer, or what? > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Thu May 22 14:15:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Does this fall under the 2.8 clause of the FAQ?? (note: I am not serious) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Thu May 22 14:57:36 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 In-Reply-To: <199705221512.KAA03686@Kitten.mcs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, Stephen D. Jensen wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has a Sinclair ZX80 that they would like to sell. > I bought the kit and built one when they first came out. It was my first > home computer! A few years later somebody stole it from our house after my > Wife and I had seperated. Why they would steal that I don't know! I have a > ZX81 but it's just not the same. Of course, it won't be the same not having > the one I built myself but I'd still like to have one for my collection. > I don't have a ZX80 to sell. (I'd like one too.) I can address part of the problem. There is a place which has instructions, part lists, ROM images, schematics, etc. for building a ZX80. Below is the article posted to alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt last December. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: nexp.crl.com!nntp.crl.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!tudelft.nl!elektron.et.tudelft.nl!not-for-mail From: grant@babytalk.demon.co.uk (Grant Searle) Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt Subject: Build your own ZX80 Date: 23 Dec 1996 12:42:13 +0100 Organization: Home Lines: 32 Sender: achhbot@morra.et.tudelft.nl Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: morra.et.tudelft.nl X-NNTP-Posting-Host: babytalk.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 X-ACHHBot: Processed. If you are interested in the internal workings of the ZX80 or ZX81 and would like to build a ZX80 yourself using readilly available components then please check out the following site: www.babytalk.demon.co.uk/zx80/zx80.html The later ZX81 is very similar to the ZX80 except a lot of the ICs in the 80 has been merged into one chip. As a result, you can learn a lot about the workings of the ZX81 by referring to the ZX80 circuit. I have several computers from the start of the 80's but have always liked the Sinclair ZX80 for the following reasons: 1. It was so tacky :) 2. It did not have a single dedicated IC in sight. It is because of the second reason this page has come into existance. Here I show you how to build your own piece of history. ALL parts for the ZX80 are available from most of the larger electronic companies. I hope it is of interest/use. BTW. As you will see from my site I am a very keen ZX80er. However, I don't have one (anymore). If you have one (working, dead or in bits) then please contact me on grant@babytalk.demon.co.uk as I am sure we can work something out. The above site is continually under construction as I will add further details when I have time. All suggestions will be considered. Grant. From william at ans.net Thu May 22 15:17:25 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221813.27040@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705222017.AA28671@interlock.ans.net> > and pretty difficult to > damage (e.g. by ESD). You must be careful with old CMOS - most from the early 1970s will die quite easily with just a minor shock. TTL and the others can be abused all day... > How insane? Are these price so high that I couldn't even consider buying > one, or would it be worth getting the odd device to restore a particularly > rare computer, or what? I think I remember prices in the 25-50 dollar range for common glue. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 22 16:19:24 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 In-Reply-To: from "Paul E Coad" at May 22, 97 12:57:36 pm Message-ID: <9705222019.AA02142@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970522/4504954b/attachment.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat May 17 08:16:14 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Wed, 21 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) > disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the > magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed > tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? I do know that some later T2k's preferred the usage of HD diskettes vice DD ones. This could possibly be a change in the drive mech that Mitsubishi used for the basis of the M4853-1. Mine used to use DD disks just fine, which is what I used since the QD ones were difficult to find and were expensive. Other people I talked to had no luck with the reliability of DD diskettes though and found that the HD ones would work just fine. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 22 21:43:14 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Teaco floppy drive excerciser Message-ID: Hi. I recently picked up a Teaco floppy disk tester/excerciser for commodore and apple II disk drives (probably any GCR drive I'm guessing). Unfortunately I got no documentation or interface cables for it. Anybody know anything about it? It looks like it will be a fun gadget and I'd love to get it working. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From MicroAge97 at aol.com Thu May 22 22:41:49 1997 From: MicroAge97 at aol.com (MicroAge97@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 Message-ID: <970522234148_-929013574@emout05.mail.aol.com> i found a page that has the plans to build your own zx80. www.babytalk.demon.co.uk/zx80/zx80.html dave From eifs at thenet.co.uk Thu May 22 17:20:55 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 In-Reply-To: <9705222019.AA02142@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Tim Shoppa writes >Hmm... I traded away my ZX80 around about 1983 or so, for a Model 33 ASR. >I still think it's one of the best trades I ever made. Well, there was an ad in Micro Mart today and someone was willing to pay 50UKP for a boxed one... They're definitely the most collectable Sinclair Research machine. Remember tho', if you're after one, to make sure it's not been 'upgraded' to ZX81 spec, as this was possible. I wouldn't part with mine for (almost) anything.... -- Eifion Bedford From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri May 23 00:54:15 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221527.AA29102@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Regarding EPROMS and PALs: I would stock up on them, as both are becoming > obsolete. Flash technology has nearly wiped out EPROM demand, just as GALs > and FPGAs are pushing out PALs. I've had this question for some time now: are EPROMs and Flash s compatible (in terms of pin-out, levels, signals, timing, etc)? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From sfeinsmi at usa.net Fri May 23 13:00:41 1997 From: sfeinsmi at usa.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Heath References: <199705221507.KAA14007@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3385DB49.4D2BC8CE@usa.net> Hello Tom, I wish to know what kind of Heath you mentioned... I am Heathkit/Zenith die-hard user. Please let me know soon as possible. Thank you, Steven Tom Phelan wrote: > > Hi Ward, > > Would you let me know if you still want this Heath. It's been sitting > in a box in my van for over a week now. If you don't want it I'll > give it to someone else. If you do want it, can we make some > arrangement for the transfer. I have to move it out of here by > Wednesday, next week so, if I don't hear from you by Sat. I'll assume > your not interested. > > Thanks > Tom From chemif at mbox.queen.it Fri May 23 14:49:24 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: Spare Chips Message-ID: <199705231949.VAA05808@mbox.queen.it> At 10:12 22/05/97 +0100, you wrote: >In article 100000@vennea.demon.co.uk>, Alexios Chouchoulas >> >> While we're talking about EPROMs, anyone care to suggest a cheap burner? >>Preferably one I can buy in the UK, but any ideas would be lovely. I've >>looked at some, but they're all in the UKP250+ price range. I'm seriously >>considering building my own... >> > > >Alexios > Maplin do two under 200UKP - the EPP1-F at 162.99 and the EPP-2 >199.99 (both prices inclusive of VAT). I bought a EPP1-F a long time ago >at one company I worked at and it seemed OK for small EPROMS/EEPROMS (up >to 128k x 8. Comes with a DOS-based editor and utilities but claims to >work on any computer with an RS232 and terminal software. > >>From the catalogue, the EPP-2 is the same but goes up to 512k / 8Mbit >PROMS. I fully agree: I own a HI-LO (the company name producing the EPP and ALL family) EPP-01A eprom programmer since three years, and never had problems. Features: NMOS/CMOS EPROM : from 2716 to 27512 and 1 Mbit EEPROM: 2816, 2816A, 2817A, 2864A, 28256A Page Mode EPROM : 27513,27011 Quick program time: 20 secs for a 27256 Easy to install Easy to use software Its price here in Italy was abt. 160 UKP (incl. VAT) > But if price doesn't matter and you're looking for performances, take a look at this jewel > > >Hope it helps. > >-- >Riccardo Romagnoli, Forli' - Italy > > From dzander at solaria.sol.net Sat May 24 13:20:11 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: new acquisition Message-ID: <199705241820.NAA06153@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970524/e8743f11/attachment.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun May 25 17:33:31 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:28 2005 Subject: 'Uniform' from Micro Solutions, 1986 Message-ID: <199705252233.SAA07176@unix.aardvarkol.com> I pulled out a disk I had sitting here which I totally forgot I had. It's the program 'Uniform', version 2.02, from Micro Solutions and is copywrited 1986. This is the PC version, and I hadn't tried it before because it's been quite a long time since I had a PC with the 5-1/4" drives. Well, I installed it onto the MS-DOS 2.11 boot disk copy I keep with the IBM 5155 and began trying different CP/M formats with it, including Kaypro 4 and Osbourne Executive formats. It read both formats flawlessly, though I've not tried formatting an Osbourne or Kaypro disk on the PC and then reading it on the real machine since Uniform does that as well. The leaflet which comes with the disk says that on an XT, the program supports 110 different CP/M formats, while on an AT it supports 160 (I'm assuming with a HD disk drive). I knew that I could read a number of different CP/M formats using CP/M 3.0 on the C-128, but hadn't given this program much attention before. Is there anyone out there who still uses this program for data exchange? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com <--- new address ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun May 25 20:53:25 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P Message-ID: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Greetings, I'm hoping for a little advice here: While scanning an auction web page (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hok055925) I found an item I have in the garage. which sold there for $76.50. This brings two questions to my mind: 1: Is it worth $76.50? 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer to sell my computer to them? _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From dzander at solaria.sol.net Sun May 25 21:18:14 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> from "Barry Peterson" at May 26, 97 01:53:25 am Message-ID: <199705260218.VAA12998@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1729 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970525/81bfe332/attachment.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Sun May 25 22:18:55 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Greetings, I'm hoping for a little advice here: Gee, it's started already 8-( > While scanning an auction web page > (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hok055925) > I found an item I have in the garage. which sold there for $76.50. > This brings two questions to my mind: > > 1: Is it worth $76.50? No, it worth about $0.50. Of course, you have all the documentation, and the disks that go with it. That might make it worth $1.50. Figure you have to pack it and ship it. That means buy a suitable box, suitable packing material, spend your time packing it, insure it for delivery, carry a possible bad check, and never see the thing again. And then what do you do when the guys says it doesn't work and wants his money back - never mind he doesn't even know how to plug it in! And - oh ya sure - I'll ship it back! - Ya right! It's much better to get rid of it locally - $25 and it yours. Come pick it up! Better for you, better for it. > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > to sell my computer to them? Only to those of us who want to preserve the beasts - rather than sell them off for a profit. (Boy - I'm mean tonight!) BC From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon May 26 01:41:07 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: New Finds... Message-ID: <33893083.128B@goldrush.com> Saturday my wife had chanced upon a Commodore 64 system (computer, 1541 drive, cables, power supply) whith some books & magazines. Since the flea market was closing there was a final offer of $10.00. Needless to say I bought it (for $8.36, all the change I had left), mainly because it was worth $10.00 for the stuff and the disks, books, and magazines caught my attention. Besides the system I got a users guide for the computer and drive, a programmer's reference guide, and a couple software manuals. Many of the disks seem to be copies of stuff, I'll have to scan them to see if there are any lost treasures... The Magazines included 6 Commander magazines from 1983/84 (this is the first time I've had the opportunity to flip though this publication.), Commodore Power/Play June/July 84, a Popular Computing and a Personal Computing magazine (the latter two have very little Commodore coverage and were talking about the Apple II and IBM as on even playing fields.) Also a Scholastic K-Power Collection of computer programs, "10 awsome/original/unusual/super/fantastic/computer puzzles and games" The computer seems to be dead ('m glad he didn't sell it to someone for the $50 he was asking for it), the drive is in great shape (as it helped copy many disks for me today) and the magazines are facinating. In the Magazines: I finally saw an ad for the OSCAR bar code reader, looked good to me, one argument they had in the ad was the unreliability of tapes, heck, I have tapes older than that ad that still work, but it would be cool to have a bar code reader for my computer(s). The issue of Popular Computing had a review on the Jupiter Ace 4000 (looks kinda like a Sinclair ZX80, but has FORTH as it's built-in language) Pretty in-depth too, 5 pages long with a screen shot and an overview of the differences of ACE FORTH to other FORTH standards. The K-power is kinda a rosetta stone of BASICs with similar programs for Adam, Apple, Atari, Commodore 64, IBM PC, TI-99/4A, TRS-80 Color Computer/Model III/4, and VIC-20. Some programs deal with at least low-res graphics and another with music. Later on I fondled a Compupro 10 at a thrift shop, like like it was a multi-user machine with 4 console ports, 3 printer ports, a SCSI/SASI port and an 8" drive port (to compliment it's two 5.25" drives bays it already has. Will have to browse the web and see if I can see what it was about. Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon May 26 03:01:02 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P References: <199705260702.AAA02208@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3389433E.7596@oboe.calpoly.edu> > On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Gee, it's started already 8-( No, it started a long time ago. > No, it worth about $0.50. Of course, you have all the documentation, and > the disks that go with it. That might make it worth $1.50. It's worth what someone will pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to pay "too much" for anything. It's called supply and demand. > It's much better to get rid of it locally - $25 and it yours. Come pick it > up! Better for you, better for it. Nice if you can find someone locally to take it off your hands. Why do you think there are so many computers at the thrift stores with garage sale price tags on them. The general public doesn't want them. > > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > > to sell my computer to them? > > Only to those of us who want to preserve the beasts - rather than sell > them off for a profit. I don't think there's any harm in trying to get a fair price for anything. We're not talking about selling food to starving people at ridiculous prices and this stuff is selling way below it's original cost. As more of this stuff is trashed and recycled, it's just the way it works. Best thing to do is get your stuff while it's still cheap. Then someday, if you ever get rid of it you can donate it to a needy collector and feel really good about it. I'd really like to pick up a 1964 mustang convertible for $500 but those greedy bastards want more than they cost new! Can you imagine? All I want to do is preserve it. From danjo at xnet.com Mon May 26 09:13:52 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3389433E.7596@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Greg Mast (leaving out the IMPORTANT parts) wrote: > > On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > > Gee, it's started already 8-( > No, it started a long time ago. Really? > > No, it worth about $0.50. Of course, you have all the documentation, and > > the disks that go with it. That might make it worth $1.50. > > It's worth what someone will pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to pay > "too much" for anything. It's called supply and demand. > > > It's much better to get rid of it locally - $25 and it yours. Come pick it > > up! Better for you, better for it. What happened to all the important stuff that was here? I was (satirically) suggesting even more! A TRS-80 4P would take at least two boxes with documentation. One big one would have to be shipped by truck (yuck). UPS has size and weight limits (just like the USPS). Packing material can be obtained from corporate dumpsters for less than the purchase price 8-) Most people would buy anything - until they find it costs ANOTHER 50%+ to get it shipped! I mean, at small prices, it's not a problem - unless I sell a DEC PDP-11 for $100 and it costs you $300 to get it. Thats $400 to you and $100 and a lot of headaches for me. I don't think I would sell it! That's why I said --- > Nice if you can find someone locally to take it off your hands. Why do you > think there are so many computers at the thrift stores with garage sale > price tags on them. The general public doesn't want them. The general public doesn't count - collectors have never been in *the general public*. > > > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > > > to sell my computer to them? > > > > Only to those of us who want to preserve the beasts - rather than sell > > them off for a profit. Where is my (I'm mean tonight line)??? You really think $76.50 would be a profit? > I don't think there's any harm in trying to get a fair price for anything. > We're not talking about selling food to starving people at ridiculous prices > and this stuff is selling way below it's original cost. As more of this > stuff is trashed and recycled, it's just the way it works. Best thing to do > is get your stuff while it's still cheap. Then someday, if you ever get rid > of it you can donate it to a needy collector and feel really good about it. Now there's an oxymoron - *needy collector*! > I'd really like to pick up a 1964 mustang convertible for $500 but those > greedy bastards want more than they cost new! Can you imagine? All I want to > do is preserve it. My preference goes to the Corvair and the Volkwagon - because they were inexpensive and worked. I see our differences more plainly now. (Feeling better today) BC From gram at terra.cnct.com Mon May 26 10:24:07 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: 'Uniform' from Micro Solutions, 1986 In-Reply-To: <199705252233.SAA07176@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I knew that I could read a number of different CP/M formats using > CP/M 3.0 on the C-128, but hadn't given this program much attention before. > Is there anyone out there who still uses this program for data exchange? Haven't used it in years, but remember it well. During the 1988 television writers' strike, it seems that every writer in Los Angeles County decided that since there was spare time available it was time to change computers. Many of them had bought their old Kaypro systems from Data Systems West in Sherman Oaks and naturally went back there to buy shiny new Zenith laptops, especially since they'd still be able to run (newer versions of) WordStar and Scriptor. Despite my nominal primary function being support of SCO Xenix, AT&T Unix and (ugh) Novell systems, I must of spent most of three months using Uniform on a Hyundai desktop box laplinked to these new Zeniths copying gagloads of old scripts from Kaypro disks to Zenith SuperSports. The mind boggles. BTW, Uniform did _not_ work on a SCO Xenix system under the VP/ix MS-DOS emulator. Thought you might like to know. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon May 26 17:09:47 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: New Finds... In-Reply-To: <33893083.128B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: > Later on I fondled a Compupro 10 at a thrift shop, like like it was a > multi-user machine with 4 console ports, 3 printer ports, a SCSI/SASI > port and an 8" drive port (to compliment it's two 5.25" drives bays it > already has. Will have to browse the web and see if I can see what it > was about. Hi. The CompuPro line is pretty much the center of my collection so if you have any questions, let me know (I have four models, docs, disks, spares, you name it...) Sounds like what you were looking at was a CP 816/10. Standard config on a pre-configured unit was 1 8088 mother processor, 4 Z80 processors, 1 5.25" floppy drive, 1 20MB hard disk. This model was different from the other CP machines in that it was cased in a big grey PC-styled desktop case. Other CP models were case in what they called the "IMSAI style case" which was just a big box (no switches). Really, anything could be in that box - many of the compupro machines seem to have been sold bare (case, PS, and S-100 bus) and it was left to you to stuff cards in to make a computer out of it. Standard software seems to have been CP/M 3, CP/M-86, CCP/M, DR-NET, and some Sorcim applications. If you didn't pick it up, I'd recommend it - they're great to play with and run a wide variety of OSs with the appropriate add-in cards. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From groberts at mitre.org Mon May 26 20:39:43 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: bringing heath 120 back to life Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970526213943.00865b00@mail90> i'm trying to fire up the old Heath H-120. it seems to have "forgotten" how to see the floppy disk controller, i get: DEVAULT DEVICE CONTROLLER ERROR i've checked quite a few things (e.g. reseat card and chips, look for cold solder joits, etc. - see my more extensive posting on comp.sys.zenith.z100). it seems like maybe getting hold of another H207 card (floppy controller) would be worth trying - or maybe even a whole Z100 system for swapping parts. are these still showing up at auctions? (DOD was of course a big Z100 customer). How do i find out about these auctions? anyone know of a source for spares or help with this sort of thing? thanks. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 26 23:17:32 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! Message-ID: This past weekend, my aunt cleaned out her basement and presented me with all the old computer stuff she had stored there. Not much but I did get an old XT and a pretty complete IIe system. First, here's what I got: About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) About 10 feet of books including (and I don't know why) users manuals and tape software for an "Epson HX20 Notebook Computer" (didn't get the computer tho :( looks neat no the cover) Since I am new to Apple's and really don't know what I'm talking about I will "attempt" to describe the system I got. Whomever had it before my aunt really did a number on it; all the punch-out plates in the back are gone and numerous ribbon cables are coming out every little crevice! First the basics: It came with 2 Disk II Disk Drives which I am still not sure even work. OPening the iie up I find: CPU has been replaced (?) with a ZIPCHIP 4 (?) In slots: AUX: This is probabl;y the most interesting board. It says Ramworks II on it and has a piggyback board attached to it that I think is supposed to be a RGB board. 1: is empty 2: has a Grappler + Parallel Printer INterface 3: Empty 4: Mouse Interface 5: Empty 6: Disk II Interface 7: (This one stumps me) Its a pretty long board and attaches by way of a wire to a panel on the back that says "VIDEX" The panel has a toggle switch and two RCA ports that say "M" and "A" Is this another Video board? OK, here's the problem! When I turn it on......nothing happens! The enhanced light comes on (?) and all I get on the screen is a sqaure pattern of reversed @ sysmbols and such. What is this? Other than that, the computer beeps once before this appears and the drives just blink their lights real quick (no motor spins, etc.) What's wrong here guys? Thanks, Les From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 27 06:50:13 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul Message-ID: I just started paying attention to garage sales this month, because of this list and because my traditional computer supply (Salvation Army) has dried up. I'm very glad I have! Last weekend was my first trip out, but I only managed to find two sales (one of which was in the paper) but this weekend the garage sale season seems to have begun in earnest. There were only two sales listed in the paper for my little town, and one of these was just up the street and around the bend, so I went there first. I ended up buying an Apple /// for $2 and carrying it home on my bicycle! (Not an easy task). I then went back for the cheap green Amdek monitor for another $2, because I have far more computers than monitors. I had to ask if there were any disks to go with the machine, and I was handed a box that I went through until I found one with a label that read "Apple ///", so I knew the disks matched the computer. There were no manuals. After plugging the thing in at home and finding that the beast worked, I went out again. I must've visited five more places (by following signs on telephone poles) before I came across the next thing that was mildly interesting: a Commodore filing cabinet with the chicken-lips logo. Not exactly related to this group, I suppose, and not the kind of thing I collect, but interesting nonetheless. Several stops later I hit the jackpot. Not for me, so much, but for a friend of mine who is out of school, out of work, bored, and constantly coming over to my place to play video games on my computers. :) This was obviously the home of a computer nerd like myself, as there was a complete Apple ][+ clone system and a complete Commodore 64 system for sale, as well as a large box full of books. I picked up four books: "The Explorers Guide to the ZX81", "Timex/Sinclair Interfacing", Jim Butterfield's "Machine Language for the Commodore 64, 128, and Other Commodore Computers", and the "Commodore 64 Troubleshooting & Repair Guide". I also picked up a complete(?) boxed GEOS 2.0 set (which probably should've stayed with the 64 system, come to think of it) and the owner parted out the joystick for his Apple ][+ (mine fell apart years ago). Total cost was $10. I rode straight home from this place, called my friend, and had lunch. He showed up with his car, and we went back to that place together to pick up the C64 system. He got a boxed C64 (old brown one), boxed 1541, 1802 colour monitor, dot matrix printer with Commodore serial ports on it, 1351 mouse in box with docs, 300bps modem in box with docs, a couple of books, a hand-killing Atari joystick, a boxed copy of Atarisoft's "Track and Field" with 3-button arcade controller, and datasette, for $35. Then we went over to the next town, because there was supposed to be some huge 40-family sale at some apartment complex, but there wasn't anything interesting there (perhaps everything was gone by then). I spotted a sign for another garage sale on the next street, so we walked over there. There I picked up an Intellivision with 6 boxed cartridges (Sea Battle, Vectron, Sub Hunt, Utopia, Chess, Armor Battle) and a BIZARRE piece of IBM equipment: an external 5-1/4" floppy drive, model 4869. I figure someone important must have an opinion on the Commodore 64, because there was an earthquake (4.5 on the Richter scale) while we were setting it up to test it. :) Anyway, not everything was perfect. The Intellivision doesn't work 100%... background graphics are OK, but most of the games have totally munged sprites. It looks like the sprites are being read out of the wrong area of memory. Oh, and background graphics ARE screwed up in Sub Hunt as well... not that it really matters, as all of the docs for that game are in German for whatever weird reason. :) There was NO useful software for the Apple ///, only something called "Apple /// Utilities" that let me make a backup of itself. There was also an incomplete copy of Pascal 1.0. Going by the info I gleaned from checking out the system config saved on the Utilities disk, the system was set up to have two floppy drives and a hard drive, but I saw no signs of any extra stuff at the garage sale. There are TWO Apple /// Profile I/O boards in the machine, though, as well as a parallel printer card. The power supply of this machine makes a LOT of noise. Is it supposed to? I found out that there is a monitor built into the machine, too (press Control-OpenApple-Reset) but apart from dumping memory eight bytes at a time and the ability to change the values stored in bytes, I can't figure out if the monitor can do anything. Some of the hardware is very Apple ][ish, though... when romping through memory with the monitor, I of course stumbled into $C000 and beyond, and the speaker sounded in the correct place, and the screen switched to high-res mode. Is this thing just a glorified Apple ][ with an incompatible OS? I took the machine apart, too, and I found a place for a battery on the motherboard, with no battery or battery cover in it. Does the /// have a system clock? Oh, and it has 256K, and the chips are neat little brown chips with gold plates on their backs. 4164s. They look just like the ones in my weird PET expansion board, except that the pins aren't gold. I heeded the warning sticker and didn't open the power supply. :) There was a loose screw, and another spall flat piece of metal, roaming about inside the keyboard. :/ Does anyone know if the Apple ][+ or //e can be made to read/write Apple /// disks in any manner that would be useful for getting files to it? Or do I have to get software for it in actual disk form at first, before I can get the thing to do anything useful? Can the /// emulate a ][? Now, on the subject of that weirdo IBM 4869 disk drive... what does this plug into? The guy I bought it from said it was for an old PC. It has a 37-pin connector on the end of its cable. It's LARGER in two dimensions than even a Commodore 1541 drive. Its power switch is very high quality. :) Would this be a 160K drive? I haven't ripped it apart (yet) to see how many heads the thing has. Pretty cool day, though. It looks like I'll be doing this quite often in future. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 27 07:37:40 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >...and a BIZARRE >piece of IBM equipment: an external 5-1/4" floppy drive, model 4869. Actually, if one worked in an IBM shop, they were quite commonplace... especially when the PS/2's came out. The PS/2's had *no* way to hook an internal 5.25" floppy (due to size of case... and IBM's wanting to create a new standard...) so you had to go external if you wanted/needed to share data with other machines with 5.25" drives. >Now, on the subject of that weirdo IBM 4869 disk drive... what does this >plug into? The guy I bought it from said it was for an old PC. It has a >37-pin connector on the end of its cable. It's LARGER in two dimensions >than even a Commodore 1541 drive. Its power switch is very high quality. >:) Would this be a 160K drive? I haven't ripped it apart (yet) to see >how many heads the thing has. The size of the drive is mainly because of the PS & case (the case is *very* well RFI shielded)... the drive itself is a standard 1/2 height 360K 40TKDSDD 48TPI drive, with a standard 34-pin edge connector. I have one sitting on my desk at home, modified to use a standard cable (read: hole cut with dremel tool in top of case to fit cable) so I can use it with either my PC or with my Tandy CoCo3. *Very* nice drive. Trying to find a few more, so I can floppyize my CoCo2 and CoCo1. If you (or anyone) needs more info on this drive, lemme know. But I can tell you, that just taking it apart is *fun*, if you have 3-4 hours to get it apart and back together. I've had mine disassembled 3-4 times now, to figure where to cut holes & stuff for my cable mods. Enjoy! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Tue May 27 10:27:26 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705271527.KAA00929@fudge.uchicago.edu> more@camlaw.rutgers.edu said, > Opening the iie up I find: > > CPU has been replaced (?) with a ZIPCHIP 4 (?) This is a 4MHz accelerator that replaces the original 1MHz CPU. If I'm remembering right, you hold down the ESC key while turning the power on to configure what speed you want to run it at. > AUX: This is probabl;y the most interesting board. It says Ramworks II > on it and has a piggyback board attached to it that I think is supposed to > be a RGB board. This is an Applied Engineering 80-column/memory expansion card. There were piggyback RGB cards available for this, so that's probably right. > 2: has a Grappler + Parallel Printer INterface That's strange... printers were traditionally in slot 1. > 3: Empty You can't do much with slot 3 when there's an 80-column card in the Aux slot, because as far as software is concerned the 80-column card looks like it's in slot 3. > 7: (This one stumps me) Its a pretty long board and attaches by way of a > wire to a panel on the back that says "VIDEX" The panel has a toggle > switch and two RCA ports that say "M" and "A" Is this another Video > board? This is probably another 80-column card, but the old II+ style instead of the newer IIe Aux style. The M and A almost certainly are the "monitor" and "apple" plugs; you should probably run another video cable from the computer's video output to the A plug, then another wire from the M plug to the monitor itself. The toggle switch will then probably choose which signal actually appears on the monitor. The newer 80-column cards are memory-mapped, but these old ones act essentially like serial terminals that happen to share the Apple's keyboard and monitor. > When I turn it on......nothing happens! > The enhanced light comes on (?) Actually it's just the power light... but when you got the Enhancement kit (which gave basic lowercase support, added graphics characters to the character generator, and gave you a few other random features) you got an "Enhanced" sticker to put over the power light. > and all I get on the screen is a sqaure pattern of reversed @ > sysmbols and such. What is this? This is what's in video memory when the power comes on, before the Autostart ROM has the chance to clear the screen and start searching for disk drives. > Other than that, the computer beeps once before this appears and the > drives just blink their lights real quick (no motor spins, etc.) I'm surprised it beeps but doesn't clear the screen or search for disks, because the beep means it is making it sufficiently far into the ROM to start initializing the computer. It could be that one of the ROM chips has gone bad but the other hasn't. Try hitting the Reset key and see if that'll give you a Basic ("]") or Monitor ("*") prompt. If you'd like to just swap the motherboard for one that definitely works, I have a spare one. Let me know if you could use it. eric From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 11:40:48 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Well, thanks to a mobile GPS, I managed to visit 30 thrifts in one day this weekend, and ended up with: - Atari 400 - IBM Portable PC 5155 - Two more Osborne 1's (for trade) - An Indus GT floppy drive for Atari 8bit (this is the best Atari 8bit drive ever made!) - Apple Disk II new in box - Another TRS-80 Model I (system unit only) - Atari 1040ST and SC124 mono monitor (floppy wasn't working but I fixed it--I think) - Another Mac 128 (with bad floppy, I have the parts to fix) - Pile of diskettes for the TRS-80 Model 4/4P, including original TRSDOS, SCRIPSIT, ZORK I, etc. - Manuals for my TRS-80 Model 4P - Some shrink wrapped games for the Apple II, Atari 8bit, and C64 - TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the expansion bay) - Atari 65XE game computer - Atari 7800 ProSystem with PS, RF adapter and 3 joysticks - Colecovision driving expansion module Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 11:45:02 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F7888A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> This seems to be the weekend for Apple II series boot problems! My Apple II+ will boot a diskette called the "Zardax Utilities" but it won't boot anything else. When I boot with the Zardax Utilities diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the screen, some disk activity, then the Zardax menu comes up. When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage characters are added. This happens with various bootable diskettes, including some brand-new shrinkwrapped Atarisoft games (whose docs say they are bootable). With the garbage on the screen, if I hit Shift/Break or Ctrl/Break or whatever, I can get to the ] BASIC prompt. I've switched out the Drive 1 and the diskette adapter card. Any idea what's wrong? thanks Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 12:04:36 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the US, this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall and 16" deep. It has a wireless infrared keyboard and wireless hand-held trackball! I never knew these were sold in the United States. It's marked 60Hz so it's not an import. About all I know about it is from a couple of web references -- 1985, 8086 CPU, 512K RAM, dual 720K drives, ran a modified OEM version of MS-DOS. Any additional information -- and pointers to a boot disk -- appreciated! thanks Kai > ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 9:40 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Another weekend haul story > > Well, thanks to a mobile GPS, I managed to visit 30 thrifts in one day > this weekend, and ended up with: > > - Atari 400 > - IBM Portable PC 5155 > - Two more Osborne 1's (for trade) > - An Indus GT floppy drive for Atari 8bit (this is the best Atari 8bit > drive ever made!) > - Apple Disk II new in box > - Another TRS-80 Model I (system unit only) > - Atari 1040ST and SC124 mono monitor (floppy wasn't working but I > fixed > it--I think) > - Another Mac 128 (with bad floppy, I have the parts to fix) > - Pile of diskettes for the TRS-80 Model 4/4P, including original > TRSDOS, SCRIPSIT, ZORK I, etc. > - Manuals for my TRS-80 Model 4P > - Some shrink wrapped games for the Apple II, Atari 8bit, and C64 > - TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the > expansion bay) > - Atari 65XE game computer > - Atari 7800 ProSystem with PS, RF adapter and 3 joysticks > - Colecovision driving expansion module > > Kai > From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Tue May 27 12:02:22 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F7888A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199705271702.MAA01286@fudge.uchicago.edu> kaikal@MICROSOFT.com says, > My Apple II+ will boot a diskette called the "Zardax Utilities" but it > won't boot anything else. ... > When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the > screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage characters > are added. My best guess is that maybe you have a 13-sector (DOS 3.2) disk controller and one 13-sector disk (the one that works), and the rest of your disks are 16-sector so the 13-sector controller doesn't know what to do with them. Unfortunately I can't remember where to peek to find out the DOS or controller version number, so I don't know how you could verify this. The other alternative is that if your Apple II+ has less than 48k of memory, the other disks may be expecting a 48k system and loading DOS into a part of memory that doesn't exist on your computer. The Zardax Utilities disk may be one with a relocatable DOS image on it (a "master" disk) created with "MASTER CREATE" and the rest are just plain fixed-address disks. This would certainly explain why random junk was getting loaded into video memory instead of where it belongs. eric From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Tue May 27 12:20:19 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 09:40:48 -0700, someone said: >- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the >expansion bay) The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue May 27 18:20:58 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend haul In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>; from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 27, 97 10:04 am Message-ID: <199705271720.17807@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the US, > this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall and 16" > deep. It has a wireless infrared keyboard and wireless hand-held > trackball! I've never heard of an F2, but I have the original Apricot PC (wired keyboard with a little LCD display on it), with schematics, and also the TechRef for the F1, which sounds a little like your machine. That TechRef is available from Mauritron for about \pounds 20.00, and is pretty useful if you want to get amongst the machine. > I never knew these were sold in the United States. It's marked 60Hz so > it's not an import. About all I know about it is from a couple of web > references -- 1985, 8086 CPU, 512K RAM, dual 720K drives, ran a modified > OEM version of MS-DOS. The original Apricot drives were 360K - _single sided_ 80 track. I guess later machines had double-sided ones. The original Apricot PC had an 8089 I/O coprocessor (a very fancy DMA engine) in it, next to the 8086. I think this was dropped in the F1 (which had no DMA at all), Dunno about the F2. There was a TI sound chip, and standard-ish (not PC-standard, but useable!) serial and printer ports. The video system was nothing short of _strange_, though. There were also video cards that fitted into the expansion slots that may have been more normal (I have no info on these). The disk controller was Western Digital (some flavour of 279x I think), and in many ways nicer than the Intel/NEC one used in PCs. As to expansion cards, I've seen : Internal Modem (300/300 and 1200/75 I think, using AM7910) Colour Video (CGA-like?) HiRes mono video (No idea) Winchester (ST506, of course) External Floppy (2 more 3.5" drives) Network (No idea, but not Ethernet. Corvus something-or-other?) I've also seen an ISA card (16 bit AT thing) that accepted an Apricot card as a daughterboard and let you use the Apricot cards in a normal PC. > Kai > > - IBM Portable PC 5155 That's an XT + CGA in a portable case, as you doubtless know. I can provide info on that if you need it (I have one, and the TechRefs) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue May 27 18:25:37 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <199705271702.MAA01286@fudge.uchicago.edu>; from "Eric Fischer" at May 27, 97 12:02 (noon) Message-ID: <199705271725.18607@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > My best guess is that maybe you have a 13-sector (DOS 3.2) disk > controller and one 13-sector disk (the one that works), and the > rest of your disks are 16-sector so the 13-sector controller > doesn't know what to do with them. Unfortunately I can't remember > where to peek to find out the DOS or controller version number, > so I don't know how you could verify this. I seem to remember that if you pull the disk controller card, the 13 sector PROMs say 'P5' and 'P6' on them, while the 16 sector ones are 'P5A' and 'P6A'. > > The other alternative is that if your Apple II+ has less than 48k > of memory, the other disks may be expecting a 48k system and loading > DOS into a part of memory that doesn't exist on your computer. The I can't remember where to peek to find the top of memory, but anyway, it's easier to flip the lid and see what RAM chips are fitted. Early Apple ]['s can take either 4K DRAMs or 16K ones (4116's), with little jumper modules that are used to strap the signals appropriately. Later apples only take 16K DRAMs. The RAM chips are inside the while rectangle on the motherboard. There are 3 rows of 8 chips. If you don't have 3 rows full of 4116's, it's time to upgrade - it's very easy to do. > eric > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 27 12:32:37 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527133237.009725d0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Barry Peterson said: >On Tue, 27 May 1997 09:40:48 -0700, someone said: > > >>- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the >>expansion bay) > >The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never >really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. Ummmm... you mean it never caught on *then*... Now we have Java, which is similar to what the P-code concept is... P-code compliled under UCSD Pascal on a Tandy Color Computer (MC6809) could run unmodified on a TI-99/4A (TMS9900). JAVM - Just Another Virtual Machine. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Tue May 27 12:51:34 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527133237.009725d0@mail.northernway.net> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <3.0.1.32.19970527133237.009725d0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33921e45.5121426@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 13:32:37 -0400, someone said: >>The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never >>really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. > >Ummmm... you mean it never caught on *then*... Actually, I meant that the P-Code Card (TI's version) never caught on then (or since). Now, in addition to a spelling checker, I need an _idea checker_ which knows what I mean, rather than what I type! _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 14:54:43 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: In article <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65- MSG.dns.microsoft.com>, Kai Kaltenbach writes >Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the US, >this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall and 16" >deep. It has a wireless infrared keyboard and wireless hand-held >trackball! > >I never knew these were sold in the United States. It's marked 60Hz so >it's not an import. About all I know about it is from a couple of web >references -- 1985, 8086 CPU, 512K RAM, dual 720K drives, ran a modified >OEM version of MS-DOS. > >Any additional information -- and pointers to a boot disk -- >appreciated! > >thanks > >Kai > Yes, they were sold in the UK. I can remember seeing lots of them around second-hand so I don't think they were very popular. They weren't a proper IBM compatible because of their modified MSDOS so maybe once their owners found this out they dumped 'em, but I think they came with a standard suite of programs. I can also remember that or a similar model having a microphone for note-taking. Sorry, I can't give you a contact for booting. -- Martin Evans From groberts at mitre.org Tue May 27 16:21:03 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527172103.008566c0@mail90> At 05:20 PM 5/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >>- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is > >The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never >really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. UCSD Pascal system compiled to an intermediate "P-Code" which required a virtual machine (p-code interpreter) to run. this gives you platform independence. it seems all good ideas come back to haunt us - this is exactly how Java works of course (except we have Java virtual machines instead of p-code interpreters). Since there were performance concerns there actually was a "Pascal engine" which executed native P-code (again like Sun's java-based processors of today). Now a pascal engine would seem to be a real collectible! - i don't think many were sold. unfortunately UCSD Pascal was wiped out along with CP/M and a lot of other good stuff when DOS swept the world. I used to run UCSD Pascal on a system called a "Terak" - anyone ever see one of these? they were pretty cool (wish i had one now). It was LSI-11 based and could run DEC real time OSes as well (can't remember which ones). I used to have 8" floppies for this with all the source code for UCSD pascal and tools (it was all originally in the public domain I think since it was university based). unfortunately i didn't have the foresight to transfer to a more modern media and I have no idea where this all is now. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue May 27 08:48:11 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <3.0.1.32.19970527172103.008566c0@mail90> Message-ID: <338AE61B.664E@unix.aardvarkol.com> Glenn Roberts wrote: > unfortunately UCSD Pascal was wiped out along with CP/M and a lot of other > good stuff when DOS swept the world. I have copies of the UCSD p-System, IV2.1 R3.4, dated 1985 for the IBM PC, both the boot and utilities disk. I also have a book titled something like 'Introduction to UCSD Pascal', though it's not handy at the moment. I do know it was authored by the programmer that originated the system. I've booted this system recently on the 5155, along with every other early PC OS I have here, but have yet to get deep into it. On a slightly different note, I finally found a Commodore C-16 today!! To make the find even nicer was the fact that it was boxed with manual, warranty registration card, and the C-16 Tutorial Catrtridge, which was also still boxed. I've yet to plug it up, but am quite looking forward to it. Jeff -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore C-128D, C-16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 17:55:30 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Current for trade/wanted list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F9DF61@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> FOR TRADE: - Osborne 1 (with copy of Osborne CP/M system disk) - Kaypro 2 (good condition, no boot disk, though it's available through the cp/m archive) - Commodore PET 2001 (full size graphics keyboard version, looks great, one small hole drilled in front panel, probably for a switch) - Tandy Color Computer 1 (good condition, some cosmetic wear at hand positions) - Macintosh 128 with keyboard and mouse - Macintosh 512 in original box with keyboard and mouse - VIC-20 in original box with PS - Commodore 64 in original box with PS - Timex-Sinclair ZX1000 (no PS but it takes standard 9VDC I believe) (game systems) - Vectrex system, very rare, yes this is the original *vector graphic monitor* console game system by Milton Bradley/GCE - Odyssey^2 system, PS, joysticks, in original box - Intellivision system, captive joypads & integral PS - Colecovision system, 2 controllers, PS WANTED: - Exidy Sorcerer - Processor Tech Sol-20 - Apple II (no suffix) - Apple Lisa - Apple /// - Compucolor II (software, parts, etc.) - TI 99/4A disk operating system cartridge - Expansion Interface for TRS-80 Model I - Tandy floppy for TRS-80 Model I - DOS master disks for Apple II+ - Tandy Color Computer I 5.25" disk software Kai From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Tue May 27 23:56:10 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend Message-ID: <230569A3F96@holly.ninja.ml.org> > Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:04:36 -0700 > From: Kai Kaltenbach > Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the > US, this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall [...] > > Any additional information -- and pointers to a boot disk -- > appreciated! If you (or anybody else) want, I can copy your message into the Fidonet "APRICOT" support echo. There aren't all that many messages in there at the moment, but I am sure that there are still folk with working Apricot machines, that would be glad to help. Let me know, and I'll post your messages in there for you, and forward replies either to this list, or back to you personally. Best wishes, ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From josh at netins.net Tue May 27 18:10:16 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Current for trade/wanted list Message-ID: <199705272308.SAA10045@ins3.netins.net> I am intrested in the macs, the 128 & 512. How much? I do have a few dos 3.3 master disks for the II series (the origional apple disks!). Intrested? I'll try to dig them out! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 27 19:41:50 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Atari 800 XL (fwd) Message-ID: If you're looking for an Atari you might want to talk to this guy. Bill ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:29:18 -0700 From: Steve To: bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu Subject: Atari 800 XL Hi Bill I have an Atari 800 XL along with several cartridges, tapes with programs and the 1010 player. This machine is like new as I take care of my equipment. I haven't used it for several years and have been thinking about selling everything. Even back then I saw how computers were advancing and I decided not to try to keep up. Last year I finally decided to buy a new computer. Quantex with P133, 2.1 gig HD, etc. I was into the computer thing in the late 50's early 60's when still a kid. If you know of anyone who would be interested in this equipment, which is in cherry condition and all power supplies, cables etc come with it along with several programs on tape (Zaxxon, Chess, Slot Machine, Sky Chart, E-Factor and LOTS more), several carts (Missile Command, Donkey Kong, Defenders...and more). Thanks....................Steve From: Steve Hagensicker <---<----->---> stevemr2@televar.com Homepage: Netsurfer Central <-----> http://www.televar.com/~stevemr2/ From transit at primenet.com Tue May 27 21:59:42 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: P-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997 09:40:48 -0700, someone said: > > > >- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the > >expansion bay) > > The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never > really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. It was to be a machine-independent interpreted pseudo-machine code (hmmm...), much the same as Java is today. I remember versions of the P-code intepreter for IBM-PC and Apple II, as well as TI. (There were also versions for non-consumer machines such as Teraks) Theoretically, a p-code compiled program would run on any of these systems (of course, differences in screen size and disk format made things a little more involved. . .) From transit at primenet.com Tue May 27 22:06:29 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: More p-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <33921e45.5121426@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997 13:32:37 -0400, someone said: > > >>The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never > >>really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. > > > >Ummmm... you mean it never caught on *then*... > > Actually, I meant that the P-Code Card (TI's version) never caught on > then (or since). Since the thing cost at least $300 new, I'm not surprised. (Of course, I don't remember TI really promoting the P-code card, at least not to "home" users. . .) Also, anyone remembers TI's videodisc controller card? I remember some of the ads and catalogs saying something to the effect of "The Videodisc controller is for industrial use only, it is not for use in the home" From transit at primenet.com Tue May 27 22:10:21 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527172103.008566c0@mail90> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > > unfortunately UCSD Pascal was wiped out along with CP/M and a lot of other > good stuff when DOS swept the world. Hey, DOS *is* CP/M as far as I'm concerned (look how long it took to kick that 8.3 filename habit! :-) > > I used to run UCSD Pascal on a system called a "Terak" - anyone ever see > one of these? they were pretty cool (wish i had one now). It was LSI-11 > based and could run DEC real time OSes as well (can't remember which ones). > I used to have 8" floppies for this with all the source code for UCSD > pascal and tools (it was all originally in the public domain I think since > it was university based). unfortunately i didn't have the foresight to > transfer to a more modern media and I have no idea where this all is now. I remember using a Terak in undergrad school, around 1984 or so. There's a page out on the web dedicated to preserving these beasts; you might try typing in "Terak" to one of the searchengines. . . From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 27 23:11:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 27, 97 08:10:21 pm Message-ID: <9705280311.AA00725@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 316 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970527/d0749eb2/attachment.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 27 22:39:57 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970527233955.00aea720@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Charles P. Hobbs happened to blather: >Hey, DOS *is* CP/M as far as I'm concerned (look how long it took to >kick that 8.3 filename habit! :-) It is not easy to calculate how long it took for them to kick the habit, as the habit has not yet been kicked... think of it as still being on the nicotine patch. The long filenames of Win95 are only a *bunch* of 8.3 filename placeholders conveniently disguised to the end user. Wanna waste a whole weekend over nothing? Run MS-DOS 6.22's scandisk/defrag on a Win95 volume and see how long it takes you to straighten that mess out... it's easier to reformat and reinstall. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 27 22:52:19 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705271527.KAA00929@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > more@camlaw.rutgers.edu said, > > > Opening the iie up I find: > > > > CPU has been replaced (?) with a ZIPCHIP 4 (?) > > This is a 4MHz accelerator that replaces the original 1MHz CPU. > If I'm remembering right, you hold down the ESC key while turning > the power on to configure what speed you want to run it at. > Just for "fun" I did this and some interesting things happened... 1. The garbage disappeared and "Apple //e" was printed at the top and the drive 1 light came on. I put in the first disk I grabbed and it came up with the message "Unable to Identify Language in MotherBoard E0 ROM. PLease replace that ROM and Reboot." What's this mean? 2. Hit escape again and got a ] prompt which someone said was a Basic prompt. Mad a stupid basic proggy, ran it, it worked. 3. Tried the reset-esc thing again but this time found a DOS 3.3 disk. DOS 3.3 APPLE II PLUS OR ROMCAERD aetc.etcetc. was printed... It come s up withthe ] prompt again. Is this what its supposed to do? Is there nothing wrong with this thing then? Could it be something stupid? (wrong thing in wrong slot?) > > This is probably another 80-column card, but the old II+ style > instead of the newer IIe Aux style. The M and A almost certainly > are the "monitor" and "apple" plugs; you should probably run another Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in there? > If you'd like to just swap the motherboard for one that definitely > works, I have a spare one. Let me know if you could use it. > If something truly is wrong with it then by all means, yes, I am interested... Thanks, Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 27 22:55:11 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970527233955.00aea720@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > It is not easy to calculate how long it took for them to kick the habit, as > the habit has not yet been kicked... think of it as still being on the > nicotine patch. The long filenames of Win95 are only a *bunch* of 8.3 > filename placeholders conveniently disguised to the end user. > Yeah, what a waste. It probably would've been better to just live with the 8+3! > Wanna waste a whole weekend over nothing? Run MS-DOS 6.22's scandisk/defrag > on a Win95 volume and see how long it takes you to straighten that mess Wanna have a "I feel real stupid contest?" I've done this TWICE!!! :( Les From BigLouS at aol.com Tue May 27 23:15:41 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! Message-ID: <970528001539_487126600@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-27 23:56:45 EDT, you write: > Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in > there? If when you boot the machine it comes up with Apple IIe then you have an enhanced IIE. If it says Apple II then you have an unenhanced IIe. Part of the enhancement upgrade involved replacing roms on the motherboard so perhaps the upgrade was done improperly (unlikely). Pulling cards is the best way to isolate the problem. First pull the videx card. If that doesn't solve the problem then pull the AE card, the mouse card and finally the printer card. If your still having problems then you may want to replace the Zip chip with a stock 65C02 (an enhanced IIe uses a 65C02 rather than a 6502). If you still have problems then you may want to try a different controller card or just throw the thing out the window. :-) Lou From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Wed May 28 00:07:07 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: More p-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <338fbceb.45734894@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >Also, anyone remembers TI's videodisc controller card? I remember some of >the ads and catalogs saying something to the effect of "The Videodisc >controller is for industrial use only, it is not for use in the home" It's PHP 2300 "Video Controller", and listed in 1982 for $699.95! (I didn't buy one) _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Wed May 28 00:02:58 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705280502.AAA02551@fudge.uchicago.edu> more@camlaw.rutgers.edu said, > > If I'm remembering right, you hold down the ESC key while turning > > the power on to configure what speed you want to run it at. > > Just for "fun" I did this and some interesting things happened... > 1. The garbage disappeared and "Apple //e" was printed at the top and the > drive 1 light came on. Hmmm... sounds like something in your system definitely doesn't like running at 4MHz but works fine at 1MHz. > I put in the first disk I grabbed and it came up with the message > "Unable to Identify Language in MotherBoard E0 ROM. PLease replace > that ROM and Reboot." What's this mean? The ROM BASIC intrepreter begins at address $E000. There were various replacement ROMs you could get that would keep copy protected programs from exercising so much control over the computer... and I'd guess this disk, whatever it is, doesn't recognize the Enhanced IIe ROM (or maybe even the IIe at all) and is thinking you're trying to fool it by switching ROMs on it. Short of figuring out a way to get a II+ ROM into the computer or patching the program to avoid the check, I don't think there's much hope for getting this particular disk to work. > 3. Tried the reset-esc thing again but this time found a DOS 3.3 disk. > DOS 3.3 APPLE II PLUS OR ROMCAERD aetc.etcetc. was printed... > It come s up withthe ] prompt again. Is this what its supposed to do? Sounds reasonable (though it's been long enough since I used a II+ system master I can't remember whether this is the standard message). The "II PLUS OR ROMCARD" means that it's recognized your system has having Applesoft BASIC in ROM instead of the older Integer BASIC; since you could add a ROM card to the original II that would give it Applesoft (or an Integer card to the II+, for that matter) it can't distinguish between a II+ (which the IIe also appears to be, since it has Applesoft in ROM) and a II with the Applesoft card. > Is there nothing wrong with this thing then? > Could it be something stupid? (wrong thing in wrong slot?) Well, having to hold down Esc to get it to work sounds like a problem to me... but I think I'd try taking out all the boards and seeing if it works without a problem that way, and if it does, putting them back in one at a time to see which one it is that doesn't like to be accelerated. I think there may have been some way to configure the Zip Chip to say which slots should be accelerated and which shouldn't, but I never had one myself, so this is just a hazy memory of secondhand knowledge... > > This is probably another 80-column card, but the old II+ style > > instead of the newer IIe Aux style. > > Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in > there? Probably the former owner either had some program that required a Videx-style card or just preferred the picture quality you get from the Videx (they had models that did 132x40 with a nice solid font -- much nicer than the spotty ugly standard IIe 80 column picture). But for normal use, there doesn't seem to be much point in having both installed. eric From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 28 08:49:11 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: P-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: ; from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 27, 97 7:59 pm Message-ID: <199705280749.23917@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> [p-code, etc] > It was to be a machine-independent interpreted pseudo-machine code > (hmmm...), much > the same as Java is today. I remember versions of the P-code > intepreter for IBM-PC and Apple II, as well as TI. (There were also > versions for non-consumer machines such as Teraks) There was also a thing called a Sage II (anyone else remember them) that was a single-board 68000-based computer. The standard OS on that was the p-system, although I am told that CP/M-68K was also available at some point. The Sage II was a nice machine to repair - one big flat board instantly visible when you pulled the cover, all chips in sockets, and the schematics in the user manual. They don't make 'em like that any more :-). It was a fairly standard design - 68000 + 512K RAM + floppy controller (Western Digital I think) + 2 serial ports + 8255 parallel port + GPIB + glue logic. Also, the first PERQ microcode implemented something called 'Q-code' which was (I believe) an enhanced p-code - enhanced with things like raster-op (bitblit) instructions. PERQ, of course, stood for 'Pascal Evaluation Real Quick', and the machine was (in part) designed to run p-code - there's a 256-way branch operation to make it easy to do an instruction dispatch on a bytecode. A few months ago, there was a comment doing the rounds between a few serious PERQ-fanatics that the PERQ should be renamed the 'jerq' (Java...) and was essentially sold 17 years too early. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 02:07:08 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard IIe (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I really should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > About 10 feet of books including (and I don't know why) users manuals and > tape software for an "Epson HX20 Notebook Computer" (didn't get the > computer tho :( looks neat no the cover) Oh yeah! Pity you didn't get the computer. It was a really good machine (for its time). You can see some detailed information about it at: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Epson_HX-20.html Btw, your Apple is indeed pretty meaty. :-) I'm sorry I can't provide any actual help (despite being an Apple user of old). Oh, the "punch-out" covers at the back weren't punch-out. They had little plastic plugs you could put back if you wanted (though, from my experience, you wouldn't -- in fact you'd add a fan to the thing so it wouldn't overheat). Good luck with it! It's a wonderful machine. Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 08:18:19 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705280502.AAA02551@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On 28-May-97, Eric Fischer wrote: >Probably the former owner either had some program that required >a Videx-style card or just preferred the picture quality you get >from the Videx (they had models that did 132x40 with a nice solid >font -- much nicer than the spotty ugly standard IIe 80 column >picture). I just received an Apple II+ I've been waiting on, and it included a Videx card, though it needs some of the wires replaced before I can install it. The only thing I can find for a model on it is a sticker on it's backside which says 'VTerm'...does this sound right? Also, where was the prefered place to run the new video out through the case? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 08:20:31 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Current for trade/wanted list In-Reply-To: <199705272308.SAA10045@ins3.netins.net> Message-ID: On 28-May-97, Josh M. Nutzman wrote: >I am intrested in the macs, the 128 & 512. How much? I do have a few dos >3.3 master disks for the II series (the origional apple disks!). >Intrested? I'll try to dig them out! Josh, If he isn't interested in these disks, I would be...as my Apple II+ came without OS disks...just a couple bootable disks with misc. stuff on them. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 28 18:22:51 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: <199705282322.RAA24573@calico.litterbox.com> And now, in the "the more things change, the more they stay the same" category, By now most of you have probably heard of the Tiger Learning Computer. It's an apple 2E clone that plugs into your tv and has rom carts for its programs. Let's see. Color, plugs into a tv, can be cartrige driven, less than 200 bucks US. *sigh* I think Commodore died too soon. The 64 was all this and more. Now if I could just find one of the little beasties... (the TLC, not the C=64 - it wouldn't be the same as the one that was MINE.) -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 28 18:04:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Seen on web: ads of interest to this list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204FDF6B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Found these ads on the web, they might be of interest to some! ANTIQUE DATA GENERAL LAPTOP FOR SALE Data General MODEL NO. 2217A. I have a Data General One laptop (Model No. 2217A) with full size Expansion Chassis, and several original manuals and programs -- Lotus 1-2-3 Rel. 1A, Microsoft Multiplan, DGBlast (communications), GW-Basic, Programmers Manual, Flight Simulator II, and Ashton-Tate Framework. Laptop has 512 mg memory, dual 720 floppies (max available on machine at time; no internal hard drives in this generation). Expansion chassis has 4 available slots and a bay for a full-size hard drive. Purchased new in 1986. This is clearly an antique, and might be of interest to DG freaks (if there are any) or computer museums; this was one of first clam shell laptops. Interested? Please reply directly to Al J. Daniel, Jr.by e-mail.mailto:adnyc@ix.netcom.com SEAGATE 8 INCH HDD FOR SALE Used SEAGATE 8 inch HDD -- condition unknown. Any interest.E-mail. ice8@eosinc.com From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Wed May 28 18:43:40 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Don't laugh - simple ][e questions Message-ID: <864860085.052074.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Hi chaps... I just picked up an Apple ][e complete with DuoDisk box and orange monitor. Great thing is it also has also the DOS 3.3 manuals and disks and bits and pieces in their original packaging! All i paid for was the petrol (yeah, i'm in England!) to go over and pick it up. Opening up the case reveals that it has a number of cards plugged in including a memory expansion card - does anyone know what size RAM this gives me? how can i check (forgive me for i have not RTFM yet!). It seems to work fine, so my big question is can i use any old 5 1/4" disks in it? is it capable of formatting any old 5 1/4" disks? I ask for two reasons: 1) so i can make back-up copies of the DOS 3.3 disks and 2) so i can save stuff. TIA...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed May 28 23:40:09 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & RE: laser discs... Message-ID: <338D08A9.58B8@goldrush.com> Recent finds... Been adding to the Atari collection, last weekend snagged a 410 tape recorder for 99 cents, noticed a bit of rattling and discovered a plastic part had fallen off the rewind key mechanism (it triggers a reed switch, probably to mute the signal when rewinding.) glue or tape should fix it. Now all I have to do is find those games I have... I think I have a Telengard tape that has atari on it, I wonder how it will compare to the 64 version... And I also have an Automated Simulations game somewhere (the science fiction one like apshai?), it could have an Atari version on it as well... I might have a possible candidate for a power supply for the growing Atari collection (from a thrift store with a table full of various PSs, and mention of boxes more in the back, gotta check there more often!), it is a 9V AC 1.6 amp supply... so, how much difference is there between 1.6 and 1.7 amps? The least rated supply (listed in the Atari FAQ) to run on an 800/1200XL is a 1.7 amp, can the 1.6 cause problems? (I have yet to try this as the plug is the too small and I will have to solder on a more suitable one for it to work.) Also got an 810 drive, did a power test tonite, the disk went through a 'seek' of some sort (still one PS and no disks, so it's best I can do for now) Now I have disk drives that match the 1200XL and 800! Speaking of the 1200XL I mentioned earlier the keyboard was not functional, a fellow user on the comp.sys.atari.8bit newsgroup suggested checking the keyboard connector, and by-jimminy, it was loose! (Now who would open a perfectly good computer...well..ok, who wouldn't open a perfectly good computer. *grin*.) Books,tapes,disks are nowhere to be found for the Atari (at thrift shops/book stores/flea markets), so far (since a month or two ago) not a one spotted, and I thought Commodore books were hard to find. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Monochrome monitors are pretty cheap out there, picked up a basic Zenith green screen for someone for $2.95, saw a few more similarly priced. -=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- My best find of the week: one thrift store had a 128D unit sans keboard (a 128D is a Commodore C128 computer with built-in 1571 disk drive, latest ROMs, and 64k video RAM) for $7.00. I figured it would be a great 'parts source' for my flat C128 (which has only 16k VRAM and old ROMs), I assumed the 128D was DOA, only to discover it is functional, the drive seems ok too! (booted a CP/M system disk and Renegade, two disks with 128 boot sectors I knew of). Now I'm gonna have to scrounge/hack up a 128D keyboard. (dang it all!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- RE: Laser Discs >From: bm_pete@ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) >Subject: Re: More p-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story > On Tue, 27 May 1997 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >>Also, anyone remembers TI's videodisc controller card? I remember some of >>the ads and catalogs saying something to the effect of "The Videodisc=20 >>controller is for industrial use only, it is not for use in the home" >It's PHP 2300 "Video Controller", and listed in 1982 for $699.95! (I >didn't buy one) I got a couple LDs from thrift shops the first ($20) was the great grandaddy Magnavox 8000, still has major tracking problems but it can't interface to anything anyway. The second ($9.95!) is a Poineer 6010? Anyway, it is an 'industrial grade' LD player (had an Armstrong Flooring disc in it). I have some articles for LD interfacing: one for the VIC-20 in a 1982 COMPUTE! and one I think for RS-232 in a 1983 BYTE; but this LD player already has an RS-232 inteface built-in so that point is moot... I am waiting to bail it out of repairs (very minor ones fortunately). Anyone got a Dragon's Lair LD lying around??? Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed May 28 23:03:48 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard IIe > (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I really > should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. > > And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > Nope, piled on top of eachother. I have about 50 disks of a diskmag called "Softdisk" or somehting like that, alone... Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed May 28 23:11:41 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705280502.AAA02551@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > Well, having to hold down Esc to get it to work sounds like a > problem to me... but I think I'd try taking out all the boards > and seeing if it works without a problem that way, and if it > does, putting them back in one at a time to see which one it > is that doesn't like to be accelerated. I think there may > have been some way to configure the Zip Chip to say which > slots should be accelerated and which shouldn't, but I never > had one myself, so this is just a hazy memory of secondhand > knowledge... I took out all the boards and the same thing happens...pattern that is. Any more ideas? :( Les From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Thu May 29 09:27:54 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: Don't laugh - simple ][e questions In-Reply-To: <864860085.052074.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199705291427.JAA05434@fudge.uchicago.edu> Nick Challoner said, > I just picked up an Apple ][e complete with DuoDisk box and orange > monitor. ... > Opening up the case reveals that it has a number of cards plugged in > including a memory expansion card - does anyone know what size RAM > this gives me? how can i check (forgive me for i have not RTFM yet!). If it's the standard Apple-issued card for the Aux slot, there are two varieties: a 2k board that adds only enough memory to make 80-column video work and a (more common) 64k board, which gives your Apple a total of 128k. You should be able to tell which of these you have by looking at the chips on it -- the 64k model will have eight 4164 chips or two of whatever the later 256kbit chip's model number was (41256?). Other manufacturers offered Aux-slot boards with more than 64k. If the memory expansion card is not an Aux-slot one, but fits in one of the standard seven slots instead, these were normally populated with 256k but could be expanded up to 1mb. > It seems to work fine, so my big question is can i use any old 5 1/4" > disks in it? is it capable of formatting any old 5 1/4" disks? I ask > for two reasons: 1) so i can make back-up copies of the DOS 3.3 disks > and 2) so i can save stuff. The Apple format was single sided, single density, so almost any disk should work. The DOS 3.3 system master disk should have a program called COPYA which will make backup copies of disks. eric From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu May 29 12:36:35 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: FS on Ebay: HP 86, Apple IIe, IIc Message-ID: <338DBEA3.52D6@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'm cleaning out my closet due to financial need. (and lack of time and space). I put 3 computers on the auction yesterday: ? HP 86 Computer, Drives, Modules ? http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=otr9161 ? Apple IIe Computer, Duo Drive, 64K ? http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=cjt6509 ? Apple IIC Computer ? http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=znb774144 Much more to come. I'm seriously cleaning house over the next few weeks. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 29 17:18:56 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:29 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050120A7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Still no joy on the Apple II+ boot problem. The machine appears to definitely have 48K RAM; at least the NEC chips have "416" on them. Any way I can tell in BASIC? I have 3 disk controllers and 3 drives. The disk controllers have 2 different ROM versions; one is half copyrighted 1979 and half 1981, while the other is all 1981. The card model is 650-X104. There's another ID number, one is 820-0006-02 and the other card is 820-0006-D. Help!!!! Kai > ---------- > From: Eric Fischer[SMTP:eric@fudge.uchicago.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 10:02 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: HELP with Apple II+ booting! > > kaikal@MICROSOFT.com says, > > > My Apple II+ will boot a diskette called the "Zardax Utilities" but > it > > won't boot anything else. > ... > > When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the > > screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage > characters > > are added. > > My best guess is that maybe you have a 13-sector (DOS 3.2) disk > controller and one 13-sector disk (the one that works), and the > rest of your disks are 16-sector so the 13-sector controller > doesn't know what to do with them. Unfortunately I can't remember > where to peek to find out the DOS or controller version number, > so I don't know how you could verify this. > > The other alternative is that if your Apple II+ has less than 48k > of memory, the other disks may be expecting a 48k system and loading > DOS into a part of memory that doesn't exist on your computer. The > Zardax Utilities disk may be one with a relocatable DOS image on it > (a "master" disk) created with "MASTER CREATE" and the rest are just > plain fixed-address disks. This would certainly explain why random > junk was getting loaded into video memory instead of where it belongs. > > eric > From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Thu May 29 14:15:45 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. Message-ID: I'm fairly new to the collecting scene and I'm looking for a monitor I can use with some of my systems. I'm mainly interested in the 8bit home computers, spectrum, c64, atari, dragon, bbc etc I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with all of the above. I know there seems to have been a few different methods used in producing the video signals and, from reading newsgroups, I get the impression that it is sometimes possible to select video outputs/monitor inputs such that, even if the monitor is not directly compatible, a reasonable result can be obtained. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 29 18:32:12 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20501ABBF@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Commodore 1084 is a versatile, inexpensive monitor on the used market. It has composite, Y/C, analog and digital RGB inputs with front-panel switching, as well as built-in audio (the 1084S is stereo). The Commodore 1702 is an older model that should be even cheaper. It has composite and Y/C connections switchable only on the rear panel, and monaural built-in audio. I'm sure both of the above were available in PAL versions, probably with the same features. Many older systems can be wired to use Y/C connections (e.g. Atari 8bit, C64) by using a custom cable on the video DIN connector instead of the Ch3/4 TV output. Y/C connections (also known as S-video) will yield a _much_ higher quality picture. The Commodore monitors use dual RCA connectors instead of the mini-DIN4 connector more commonly associated with S-video, but electrically it's the same. If you had a newer system with S-video output (e.g. PlayStation/Saturn) it would be simple to make a mini-DIN4-to-dual-RCA adapter cable. I use a Commodore 1084S for my Amiga, Atari ST and IBM CGA/EGA applications; a (ultra cool) Samsung GXTV (http://sosimple.com/gxtv.htm) for various systems, including those that have only Ch3/4 output (e.g. Mattel Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair ZX) and for watching TV in the computer room :), and a Sony PVM-2030 broadcast stacking monitor for the modern video game systems. I'd like to find a Sony GVM-1311Q, which is a 13" monitor that accepts composite, Y/C, digital and analog RGB, the latter at up to 1024x768. That covers just about everything except Hercules Mono. Kai > ---------- > From: Pete Robinson[SMTP:Pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 1997 12:15 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: monitors for use with old computers. > > I'm fairly new to the collecting scene and I'm looking for a monitor I > can use with some of my systems. I'm mainly interested in the 8bit > home > computers, spectrum, c64, atari, dragon, bbc etc > > I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be > used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with > all > of the above. > > I know there seems to have been a few different methods used in > producing the video signals and, from reading newsgroups, I get the > impression that it is sometimes possible to select video > outputs/monitor > inputs such that, even if the monitor is not directly compatible, a > reasonable result can be obtained. > > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. > -- > Pete Robinson > pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk > http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web > utilities. > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 29 20:19:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050120A7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 29, 97 03:18:56 pm Message-ID: <9705300019.AA24753@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970529/2dd5034f/attachment.ksh From BigLouS at aol.com Thu May 29 22:43:01 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! Message-ID: <970529234259_576696852@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-29 21:36:06 EDT, shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) writes: > The chips aren't hard to find or replace, it's just that I've seen > neophytes smoke a half-dozen drives in a matter of minutes while > swapping cables around. (Yes, i've smoked a couple myself.) I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one frying Disk II's although I only seem to fry the 74LS125's on the drive. Lou From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 08:57:46 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. In-Reply-To: ; from "Pete Robinson" at May 29, 97 8:15 pm Message-ID: <199705300757.27749@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I'm fairly new to the collecting scene and I'm looking for a monitor I > can use with some of my systems. I'm mainly interested in the 8bit home > computers, spectrum, c64, atari, dragon, bbc etc > > I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be > used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with all > of the above. Right. The most important thing to match up when selecting a monitor is the horizontal scan rate - since (in 99% of cases) the EHT (and other voltages) are produced by the horizontal output stage, changing this scan rate is almost always non-trivial. The vertical scan rate is much easier to fiddle with, since nothing else is produced by the vertical deflection system. Fortunately, almost all home computers (and all the ones you mentioned) use TV-like scan rates. In the UK, they're 15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical, while in the States they're 15750Hz horizontal (I think), 60Hz vertical. Those 2 horizontal scan rates are close enough that most monitors for one can be tweaked to work at the other. Now, as to the video signal itself. It will typically be one of a small number of possibilities : 1) Digital RGB colour (BBC, for example). This has 1 TTL level signal for each of R,G,B, and hence you're limited to 8 colours. The Syncs are separate TTL level signals, either separate (HSync and VSync) or combined (Composite Sync). Amstrad used a varient of this system where each of the R,G,B signals could be in one of 3 states (high, low, floating) giving 27 colours. 2) Analogue RGB colour. This has separate analogue signals for each of R,G,B, giving essentially unlimited colours, but is otherwise as in (1). Sometimes the Sync signals are combined with the green video signal (sync-on-green). 3) Monochrome with separate syncs (very rare!). This system has a single signal (either analogue or digital) that carries the intensity information, together with 1 or 2 sync signals as above. I can't think of a home computer that used this system 4) Composite monochrome. This combines the syncs and intensity information into a single signal that is almost identical to a TV video signal (i.e. what you'd find in a TV after the video detector, or what you'd get from the video output socket on a VCR). These signals are almost always compatable with the TV standards of the appropriate country. 5) Composite PAL or NTSC. PAL and NTSC are the systems used in the UK or the States for colour television. These signals are in general compatable with the TV standards of those countries, and combine all colour, intensity and sync information into a single signal. 6) 'Y&C' (Commodore, in general). The colour TV signal consists of 2 parts - the 'Y' (or luminance) signal which caries the intenstity information and the 'C' (or chrominance) signal which caries the colour information. Some CBM machines have separate outputs for the 2 signals, which gives slightly better quality than combining them and them separating them again in the monitor. 7) VHF/UHF TV signals. These are essentially very low power TV transimissions, on Channel 3/4 (VHF) in the States, and Channel 36 (UHF) in the UK. You link them to the aerial input of at TV set, which then converts them to Composite PAL/NTSC. Now, as to what converts to what easily : Composite PAL/NTSC and Composite monochrome are compatible in both directions with no problems. The TV standards were designed that way. VHF/YHF TV can be converted to composite video using a TV tuner/IF strip, either as part of a TV, or extracted from a dead VCR. There are single-chip solutions to convert composite PAL or NTSC (and even some chips that do both) to analogue RGB. Be warned that _building_ a circuit using one of these chips is often hard, since there are a number of critical adjustments to get right. There are also single chips that go the other way Digital RGB outputs will often drive analogue RGB inputs, sometimes a resistor network is needed. The other way needs a few high-speed comparator chips (although _sometimes_ a direct connection works!) There are chips that will separate the syncs from a composite signal, and produce video + syncs. Combining syncs and video to make a composite signal is generally a simple circuit as well. > > I know there seems to have been a few different methods used in > producing the video signals and, from reading newsgroups, I get the > impression that it is sometimes possible to select video outputs/monitor > inputs such that, even if the monitor is not directly compatible, a > reasonable result can be obtained. Well, there have been monitors (Philips, Barco, a few others) that will accept : Composite PAL (and hence mono). A few do NTSC as well Digital RGB Analogue RGB Take one of those, add a TV tuner, and you can handle just about all the standards. Some _good_ portable TV's have a SCART socket with RGB inputs. The bandwidth there is often high enough to enable the set to be used as a monitor for (at least) 80 column text. A SCART socket will also have a composite PAL input on it. And of course a TV will accept UHF or VHF signals as appropriate. Apart from special monitors, I make do with 3 things : 1) A portable (9") NEC monochrome monitor. Composite inputs 2) A digital RGB monitor (again NEC, although I'd prefer a Microvitec) 3) An analogue RGB monitor (Barco, big, heave, expensive!) > > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. > -- > Pete Robinson > pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk > http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 30 03:54:44 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Name those cards game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I came across some Apple II boards recently. Some I can make and educated guess about, but others are a bit of a mystery: APPLI-CARD - Personal Computer Products, Inc. This one has a Z80B, 8 chips (Mistsubishi?) labeled 5K4164ANP-15. This is a long card which has either a block of pins for 25 jumpers or ribbon connectors. There is also an empty socket next to an EPROM labeled "APPLI-CARD BOOTSTRAP V9.0 (C) PCPI 1982". The board is labeled as being copyright 1982. APL BOARD UNIT G479501000-0 it has an EPROM labeled "APL", an odd connector (15 pins) which looks like it could be for keyboard. The board is labeled "EPSON". My guess is that this is a board which either transformed an Apple II keyboard into an APL keyboard or allowed an APL keyboard to be used. LEGO 9767. This board features a 6522 and a 20 wire ribbon cable. The board is labeled "FOR EDUCATIONAL USF" (the F is not a typo). This one has 3 chips, 2 capacitors, 1 resistor, and a transistor. I'm guessing that this is for controlling Lego motors and switches. APPLE IIGS MEMORY EXPANSION. (Even I can figure this one out!) It features 8 MB81256-12s, 8 M5M4256APs, 8 TMS4256-12NLs, and 8 TMM41256AP-12s. The copyright is 1986 but several of the chips have dates of 89. The last one is an IBM type card which was with the Apple cards. It has 2 9 pin female connectors and an RCA type jack. The board has the words "DIAMOND COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC" and "TRACKSTAR 128 TM" silk screened on the board. There are two EPROMs, a 6502, 65SC02, 2 EPROMs, 8 socketed AMPAL16L8LPCs (memory?). There is another socketed IC which is labeled DISK. I'm guessing that this is some sort of Apple II on an ISA card. Can anyone identify these cards? Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 30 06:59:00 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: > > >...and a BIZARRE > >piece of IBM equipment: an external 5-1/4" floppy drive, model 4869. > > Actually, if one worked in an IBM shop, they were quite commonplace... > especially when the PS/2's came out. The PS/2's had *no* way to hook an > internal 5.25" floppy (due to size of case... and IBM's wanting to create a > new standard...) so you had to go external if you wanted/needed to share > data with other machines with 5.25" drives. Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. > The size of the drive is mainly because of the PS & case (the case is > *very* well RFI shielded)... the drive itself is a standard 1/2 height 360K > 40TKDSDD 48TPI drive, with a standard 34-pin edge connector. OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin connector? I want to connect this drive to my A1060 SideCar on my Amiga 1000. I removed the internal floppy drive in the SideCar in order to install a 5.25" hard drive in its bay. If I build an extension cable, I should be able to get this IBM drive hooked up instead, so that I'll actually have an A: drive on the machine. :) Then I'll have a machine I can run 22DISK on so I can avoid a lot of the foolishness with serial cables, etc. > I have one > sitting on my desk at home, modified to use a standard cable (read: hole > cut with dremel tool in top of case to fit cable) so I can use it with > either my PC or with my Tandy CoCo3. *Very* nice drive. Trying to find a > few more, so I can floppyize my CoCo2 and CoCo1. Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these machines. > If you (or anyone) needs more info on this drive, lemme know. But I can > tell you, that just taking it apart is *fun*, if you have 3-4 hours to get > it apart and back together. I've had mine disassembled 3-4 times now, to > figure where to cut holes & stuff for my cable mods. Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my Mac 512K. > Enjoy! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Fri May 30 07:16:25 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: PS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530081625.00801e30@mail90> At 07:59 AM 5/30/97 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> especially when the PS/2's came out. The PS/2's had *no* way to hook an >> internal 5.25" floppy > >Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) remember that at the time the PS/2 came out IBM was trying to re-assert their lead in the industry (they largely failed). they decided to move to a completely new architecture which they hoped would set a new standard (e.g. 3.5" floppy; Microchannel; VGA graphics). the microchannel failed because they tried to license the technology, but people found ways to breathe life into the old ISA bus instead. the small floppy and VGA were obviously successes, but IBM underestimated the need for backward compatibility to the larger floppies (obvious in hindsight). - glenn From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 30 07:28:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Name those cards game In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530082842.009e3d30@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Paul E Coad said: > >I came across some Apple II boards recently. Some I can make and >educated guess about, but others are a bit of a mystery: [snip] >APL BOARD UNIT G479501000-0 it has an EPROM labeled "APL", an odd >connector (15 pins) which looks like it could be for keyboard. The >board is labeled "EPSON". My guess is that this is a board which >either transformed an Apple II keyboard into an APL keyboard or >allowed an APL keyboard to be used. Everyone here who likes APL, please raise your hand! |||| |||| |||| / Me!!!!! ;-) ||||/ \ / || >LEGO 9767. This board features a 6522 and a 20 wire ribbon cable. >The board is labeled "FOR EDUCATIONAL USF" (the F is not a typo). >This one has 3 chips, 2 capacitors, 1 resistor, and a transistor. >I'm guessing that this is for controlling Lego motors and switches. cool! >The last one is an IBM type card which was with the Apple cards. It >has 2 9 pin female connectors and an RCA type jack. The board has the >words "DIAMOND COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC" and "TRACKSTAR 128 TM" silk >screened on the board. There are two EPROMs, a 6502, 65SC02, 2 EPROMs, >8 socketed AMPAL16L8LPCs (memory?). There is another socketed IC >which is labeled DISK. I'm guessing that this is some sort of Apple II >on an ISA card. Yes, sir! That's the card. If you'd like more info, I *think* these are detailed in my 1989 Tandy Computer Catalog I have at home... they used to market these things to try to get a little more TRS- market share. I honestly can't say how good they were, and (IIRC... it's been a while) you do have to have an apple disk drive as the drives are not compatible with the IBM standard, but other than that, it *was* an interesting upgrade path for all you ol' Apple ]['ers out there. Sorry, I worked on them in high school... I don't hold that fascination with them that many of you here do... Non-linear video memory just seemed "weird" to me for some reason. It was a good system, but just not my cup of tea. Anywho, If you're interested in that article, let me know and I'll try to dig it up over the weekend. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 30 07:27:19 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: SoftCard IIe (was: Re: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard > IIe (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I > really should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. I notice you mention that it is a "SoftCard IIe". Does the Apple //e require a special version of the SoftCard? The reason I ask is that I had an Apple ][+ with a Z80 card (of undetermined origin). My ][+ started dying (it was getting "zaps" in the video quite frequently) so I upgraded to a //e as soon as I found one in a thrift store. I moved everything across to the //e (smoking a Disk ][ in the process :'() and the Z80 card refuses to work in the //e. I even picked up a second Z80 card, and it won't work in the //e, either. > Btw, your Apple is indeed pretty meaty. :-) I'm sorry I can't provide any > actual help (despite being an Apple user of old). Oh, the "punch-out" covers > at the back weren't punch-out. They had little plastic plugs you could put > back if you wanted (though, from my experience, you wouldn't -- in fact > you'd add a fan to the thing so it wouldn't overheat). I preferred the simple grooves in the back for cables on my ][+ clone. I never had to disconnect anything to remove it. I wouldn't have smoked the Disk ][ if the //e hadn't required pulling the cable from the controller for installation. :/ Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 13:40:32 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at May 30, 97 7:59 am Message-ID: <199705301240.9935@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer > so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used > to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. No, AFAIK the PS/2 cases had (special!) 3.5" bays only. > > > The size of the drive is mainly because of the PS & case (the case is > > *very* well RFI shielded)... the drive itself is a standard 1/2 height 360K > > 40TKDSDD 48TPI drive, with a standard 34-pin edge connector. > > OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of > the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without > modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin > connector? If it's the same as the XT external floppy connector (and I think it is!), the 34 wires of the standard floppy connector are connected to the 'bottom' (higher numbered) pins on the 37 pin D plug. Pins 1,2,20 are no connection, pin 3 is wire 2, pin 4 is wire 4, pin 5 is wire 6, etc. Pins 21-37 are all grounded. It's a standard DC37 connector, available from any good electronics parts place, I think. You can get solder, PCB mount or IDC versions. [...] > Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a > CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these > machines. You need a disk interface cartridge. It fits into the ROMpack slot, and it contains a ROM containing the disk extenstions to BASIC and the disk controller (WD1773 in later models, WD1793? in earlier ones). The disk drive plugs into a 34 pin connector on the end of the cartridge Late version disk interfaces (FD500 and later) work in all CoCo's. Early interfaces need a 12V line (I forget if it's +ve or -ve) that's only available on the CoCo1. Of course there's nothing to stop you hacking it. > Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed > screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use > a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my > Mac 512K. Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such things... > Doug Spence -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 30 07:41:27 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? Message-ID: Hi, The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the machine is powered up. I think this thing becomes even louder than our 1950s-era Westinghouse refrigerator. (OK, perhaps an exaggeration, but the sound seems to carry farther.) There is nothing obviously functionally wrong with the computer - it boots up fine, there's no wavering or glitching in the display, nothing to say that something might be wrong. Except the buzzing. It makes me nervous. Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which part is about to go? It looks like the power supply should be easy to repair, but I don't know what I'm doing with these things. I know it's been stated here that power supplies should be checked before powering anything up, but I don't really know how to do that, and sometimes I'm just too impatient to see my new toys running. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From gram at cnct.com Fri May 30 07:51:13 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Name those cards game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > The last one is an IBM type card which was with the Apple cards. It > has 2 9 pin female connectors and an RCA type jack. The board has the > words "DIAMOND COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC" and "TRACKSTAR 128 TM" silk > screened on the board. There are two EPROMs, a 6502, 65SC02, 2 EPROMs, > 8 socketed AMPAL16L8LPCs (memory?). There is another socketed IC > which is labeled DISK. I'm guessing that this is some sort of Apple II > on an ISA card. The Trackstar was basically a complete Apple II on a card that went into a PC compatible. Well, it didn't have much expansion, so you you couldn't add a Z-80 SoftCard, but that wasn't the market that it was aimed at anyway. It required an actual Apple disk drive, since PC drives require a format that respects the existence of the sector detect hole. It was mainly aimed at the educational market, since many schools had a lot of old Apple hardware and software. To the best of my recollection, it was at least as Apple II compatible as a clone could be -- I don't remember _any_ programs that couldn't be made to run, and a lot of games looked mighty cool on a Tandy 1000 display. (While it would go into any generic PC compatible, Tandy made a specific effort to market and regain market share lost with their stupid decision to abandon the old Z-80 product line). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 30 08:05:44 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530090544.009266e0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer >so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used >to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. Every PS/2 that I've ever seen (note: this does not mean All PS/2's... just the ones I've seen) didn't have a 5.25" port at all... not even their tower "servers". I suspect it was IBM (trying to) setting a new standard... again. >OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of >the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without >modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin >connector? IIRC, it's just straight thru with the last/first 3 pins unused... but I'd have to look at the cable or ring some pins to be sure (and yes, I'm a packrat...). I also believe that you can still get 37-pin D-sub connectors thru the Mouser Electronics catalog. Good people to work with... I had 3 distinct problems with my first order (totalling $40USD) and they took care of all of them at their expense (shipped some closeout SMD resistors *overnight* because they forgot them in the package... their expense... that's their policy, despite my not being in a rush for them!) Try http://www.mouser.com . >Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a >CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these >machines. All CoCo controllers take Shugart standard drives (now called IBM standard drives... IBM's taking over again!) altho RSDOS limits you to 35 tracks, SSDD, 156K disks (the original Shugart drives) without patches... which (of course) I have. RSDOS can handle a max of 2 DSDD 80 track drives with patches (more accurately... they look like 4 SSDD 80 track drives, with :2 the backside of :0 and :3 the backside of :1) but 1.44Meg storage thru RSDOS is really good! OS-9 can handle 3 DSDD 80trk drives! >> If you (or anyone) needs more info on this drive, lemme know. But I can >> tell you, that just taking it apart is *fun*, if you have 3-4 hours to get >> it apart and back together. I've had mine disassembled 3-4 times now, to >> figure where to cut holes & stuff for my cable mods. > >Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed >screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use >a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my >Mac 512K. There are three ways to get into the case, only one of which I recommend. The first method involves a chainsaw and a 12lb (5.5kg) sledgehammer... If you have to ask, you don't want to know. ;^> The second method would require an appropriately sized Torx screwdriver and a Dremel tool with drill press attachment. You would need to drill a small hole in the end of the Torx driver to accommodate the post in the screw. While this method is the safest to the drive, it's also the most work. Method 3 (which is the one I used) requires a pointed instrument (like a leather awl) and a regular (flat-head or slotted) screwdriver that just fit's into 2 of the points of the Torx screw (the screwdriver tip of my tiny Swiss Army knife worked perfectly). Use the awl to bend the post over as much as you can, and this *should* (no guarantees, YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda...) get you enough room to get enough of the slotted screwdriver into 2 of the star points and extract the screw. As the case is built like a Sherman Tank, once the screws are removed, deep six them. I've been running mine for 3 years without the special screws with no ill effects. Anyway, I hope this helps, and enjoy the drive! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 30 08:12:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <199705301240.9935@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530091242.009db230@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >> Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a >> CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these >> machines. >You need a disk interface cartridge. It fits into the ROMpack slot, and >it contains a ROM containing the disk extenstions to BASIC and the disk >controller (WD1773 in later models, WD1793? in earlier ones). The disk >drive plugs into a 34 pin connector on the end of the cartridge > >Late version disk interfaces (FD500 and later) work in all CoCo's. Early >interfaces need a 12V line (I forget if it's +ve or -ve) that's only >available on the CoCo1. Of course there's nothing to stop you hacking it. Uhhhh, yea, what he said. I forgot to mention the disk interface cartridge in my last post... I have a few Disto mini-controllers (MC-1's) sans case if you're interested... I think I have a PD dos available as well, as the DOS chip (on ROM) is no longer available from RS. >> Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed >> screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use >> a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my >> Mac 512K. >Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool >shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such >things... Boy... y'all got everything over there, don't you? I've *never* seen a T-proof Torx screwdriver on this side of the pond... therefore I just tampered the tamperproofs to get in. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 14:37:34 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530091242.009db230@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at May 30, 97 9:12 am Message-ID: <199705301337.15278@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > >Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool > >shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such > >things... > > Boy... y'all got everything over there, don't you? I've *never* seen a > T-proof Torx screwdriver on this side of the pond... therefore I just > tampered the tamperproofs to get in. I did say _good_ tool shops :-) There's perhaps one in a major city. The local hardware stores wouldn't have them. I would think that Jensen Tools (I think that's the spelling) would have them in the States. Actually, a lot of the tools we get over here are US in origin. Xcellite, Moody, etc. I can't remember who made the tamperproof Torx drivers I have - maybe CK (German), maybe one of the US manufacturers. I've found a good tool kit (I have flat blade, phillips, pozidriv, Torx, Torq, tri-wing, tamperproof torx, Allen hex, Tamperproof Allen hex, JIS, etc screwdrivers) to be almost essential for computer preservation > > HTH, > "Merch" -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 14:44:49 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at May 30, 97 8:41 am Message-ID: <199705301344.15723@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Hi, > > The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is > a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the > machine is powered up. > > I think this thing becomes even louder than our 1950s-era Westinghouse > refrigerator. (OK, perhaps an exaggeration, but the sound seems to > carry farther.) > > There is nothing obviously functionally wrong with the computer - it boots > up fine, there's no wavering or glitching in the display, nothing to say > that something might be wrong. > > Except the buzzing. > > It makes me nervous. > > Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go > kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which > part is about to go? No it's not normal. The Apple uses a switching type supply, and there shouldn't be any 60Hz waveforms anywhere after the mains rectifier/smoothing cap. If it's buzzing there is a problem It _may_ be nothing more than the mains filter coil (if it has one), or it may be a dried up smoothing capacitor (the 2 big ones rated at about 300V) that needs replacing. You could try those first. > > It looks like the power supply should be easy to repair, but I don't know > what I'm doing with these things. I know it's been stated here that power > supplies should be checked before powering anything up, but I don't really > know how to do that, and sometimes I'm just too impatient to see my new > toys running. You'll regret it. It takes _1_ dry joint to break during shipping for all the chips in your new toy to be killed at switch-on. I've almost seen it happen (a colour monitor blew up after being turned upside-down since a dry joint opened and removed the regulation from the PSU - guess who's got that one to sort out!). Please check the PSU before going any further. Apple PSUs are easy to check. The 6 way cable unplugs from the main board, and the wiring is given in the Apple ][ reference manual. Just connect a voltmeter between the +5V output and the ground wire (red and black?) and power up. I don't think you need a dummy load. If you don't get 5V when you power up, you need to sort out that PSU. > Doug Spence -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 14:07:46 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. In-Reply-To: <199705300757.27749@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: cheers for all the info - it's given me a lot to go on. -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 22:51:27 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30-May-97, Pete Robinson wrote: >I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be >used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with all >of the above. Pete, One monitor that I have found to be a good general purpose monitor is the Amiga 1080 (and I believe the 1084 is the same way). It is switch selectable between positive and negative RGB, composite, and seperate video signals, and has the RCA jacks on the back for composite and seperate signals, including the audio-in, as well as a 9pin RGB port. I've used my 1080 for my Apple II+ (composite), C-128 (RGB), and as a monitor for a VCR, using the VCR as a TV tuner. There are both NTSC and PAL compatible versions of these monitors. Hope this helps. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 22:57:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050120A7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On 30-May-97, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >I have 3 disk controllers and 3 drives. The disk controllers have 2 >different ROM versions; one is half copyrighted 1979 and half 1981, >while the other is all 1981. The card model is 650-X104. There's >another ID number, one is 820-0006-02 and the other card is 820-0006-D. Kai, The ammendum that was included with the 'Disk II Installation Manual' with my Apple II+ lists the 16 sector controller as #650-4105. The card in my II+ is a #650-4104. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri May 30 16:35:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20504C12A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | Yes, sir! That's the card. If you'd like more info, I *think* these are | detailed in my 1989 Tandy Computer Catalog I have at home... Yep! Page 25, "Now you can run Apple IIc educational and game software on your Tandy 1000...with the TRACKSTAR 128 adapter. Imagine having the best of both worlds in one computer...Supports the use of Apple joysticks or game port devices such as Muppet Learning Keys. [???]" $399.95 Kai From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri May 30 17:11:33 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Kaypro Message-ID: <199705302211.SAA30494@unix.aardvarkol.com> Here's an Email I recieved today, just in case any of you are interested. >To: JeffH >From: dasarno@aol.com >Date: 28 May 97 21:20:02 -0500 >Subject: Kaypro > > >Jeff - >I came across your name by reference the keyword Kaypro. I have a >mint condition Kaypro 10, all manuals, back-up disks. It looks like >it just came out of the box and works great. But, have absolutely no >use for it. Do you have any ideas? Is there an aftermarket or should >I donate it to some school computer lab. Thanks > >Don S. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 10:37:24 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: SoftCard IIe (was: Re: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard > > IIe (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I > > really should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. > > I notice you mention that it is a "SoftCard IIe". Does the Apple //e > require a special version of the SoftCard? Well, I remember there was a Microsoft SoftCard II. The one I have is clearly labelled Microsoft SoftCard IIe (big, old-type Microsoft logo). I don't know if there are actual differences. I've never seen the SoftCard II. > I moved everything across to the //e (smoking a Disk ][ in the process > :'() and the Z80 card refuses to work in the //e. There are a lot of hardware incompatibilities between the two machines, I think. They should be well documented, though. > I preferred the simple grooves in the back for cables on my ][+ clone. I > never had to disconnect anything to remove it. Yes, those were such a good idea. When I first saw them, I thought "this is STRANGE". But it makes sense. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From kevan at motiv.co.uk Sat May 31 02:34:30 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4's for UK collectors... Message-ID: <199705310734.IAA02903@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Hi, I recieved the following email through my web site. I really don't have the room for these so if anybody is interested then feel free to contact him. (He does know I have forwarded this email.) Kevan ------- Forwarded Message From pcoad at crl.com Sat May 31 02:52:18 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20504C12A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | Yes, sir! That's the card. If you'd like more info, I *think* > these are > | detailed in my 1989 Tandy Computer Catalog I have at home... > > Yep! Page 25, > > "Now you can run Apple IIc educational and game software on your Tandy > 1000...with the TRACKSTAR 128 adapter. Imagine having the best of both > worlds in one computer...Supports the use of Apple joysticks or game > port devices such as Muppet Learning Keys. [???]" > $399.95 > I found it in my copy of the 1989 Radio Shack Catalog. I would never have thought to look for it there! Thanks to all who gave information on the board. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 04:56:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Greetings, I'm hoping for a little advice here: > > While scanning an auction web page > (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hok055925) > I found an item I have in the garage. which sold there for $76.50. > This brings two questions to my mind: > > 1: Is it worth $76.50? Probably not. > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > to sell my computer to them? Not at all. I'm sure they would appreciate it. Speaking of TRS-80 Model 4's, I just got back from Mexico (Cancun) and while there I happened upon a computer store. It was a very modern store, with all the standard clone PC stuff, but they also had sitting on the shelf a TRS-80 Model 40 with 64K and two 5.25" floppies. I would have loved to have taken it back with me but I'm sure the tariffs I would've been hit with wouldn't have been worth it. Plus it would've been a bitch to haul around with me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 05:35:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705271527.KAA00929@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > > 2: has a Grappler + Parallel Printer INterface > > That's strange... printers were traditionally in slot 1. But not required to be in slot 1. Any card could be in any slot. It makes no difference to the computer. Software applications are a different story. > > 7: (This one stumps me) Its a pretty long board and attaches by way of a > > wire to a panel on the back that says "VIDEX" The panel has a toggle > > switch and two RCA ports that say "M" and "A" Is this another Video > > board? I would suggest taking this card out as it hardly seems like it belongs in the system and may be the cause of the malfunction. The only reason I can think that this card is in slot 7 is because slot 7 had a special connection to a video signal (something like that, I forget the specifics) and maybe this was an enhanced graphics card of some sort. But slot 7 is also the first slot the ROM looks in for a bootable device, and this card may be preventing the system from finding the disk controller in slot 6 and booting off the disk drive. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 05:41:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F7888A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the > screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage characters > are added. This happens with various bootable diskettes, including some > brand-new shrinkwrapped Atarisoft games (whose docs say they are > bootable). Three possible problems: a) the disks got scrambled by a magnetic field or are just old b) your disk drive speed is out of whack and needs to be adjusted. You need to find a copy of Copy ][ Plus (versions 3.0 and higher?) which includes a disk speed alignment program. You need to open up the disk ][ and use a small screwdriver to tweak the pot controlling the drive speed per the on-screen display of Copy ][ Plus. c) the disks you are trying to boot require an amount of memory that your ][+ does not have. Older ][+ systems only came with 16K, upgradable to 48K and 64K with a "language card". The disks you are trying to boot may require 48K, and you may only have 16K. > With the garbage on the screen, if I hit Shift/Break or Ctrl/Break or > whatever, I can get to the ] BASIC prompt. Pressing RESET alone on the ][+ will suffice to break into the basic prompt. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 05:56:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Just for "fun" I did this and some interesting things happened... > 1. The garbage disappeared and "Apple //e" was printed at the top and the > drive 1 light came on. I put in the first disk I grabbed and it came up > with the message "Unable to Identify Language in MotherBoard E0 ROM. > PLease replace that ROM and Reboot." What's this mean? I have never, ever heard of this message, so it is most likely application specific. What disk was it that you put in? The E0 ROM held part of AppleSoft BASIC. I don't know a whole lot about the ZipChip, but I am pretty sure it didn't include a ROM change. I think we need to know what the software was to solce this mystery. > 2. Hit escape again and got a ] prompt which someone said was a Basic > prompt. Mad a stupid basic proggy, ran it, it worked. It is, indeed, the AppleSoft BASIC prompt. > 3. Tried the reset-esc thing again but this time found a DOS 3.3 disk. > DOS 3.3 APPLE II PLUS OR ROMCAERD aetc.etcetc. was printed... > It come s up withthe ] prompt again. Is this what its supposed to do? Yes, it's just a simple boot disk for DOS 3.3. > Is there nothing wrong with this thing then? > Could it be something stupid? (wrong thing in wrong slot?) Sounds like the system is working (mostly) fine. I think the software you are booting up is throwing you a curve ball. > Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in > there? Probably not. Try taking out the video card in slot 7. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 06:18:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > > > > Nope, piled on top of eachother. I have about 50 disks of a diskmag > called "Softdisk" or somehting like that, alone... SoftDisk is cool. It was a subscription "softzine" that just stop being published last year or so. It always had lots of cool little tidbits on it. Definitely worth exploring. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 12:49:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Don't laugh - simple ][e questions In-Reply-To: <864860085.052074.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Nick Challoner wrote: > It seems to work fine, so my big question is can i use any old 5 1/4" > disks in it? is it capable of formatting any old 5 1/4" disks? I ask > for two reasons: 1) so i can make back-up copies of the DOS 3.3 disks > and 2) so i can save stuff. It will format any disks up to DSDD (I believe it can't do HD disks, and I'm not sure about QD). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 12:46:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I found out that there is a monitor built into the machine, too (press > Control-OpenApple-Reset) but apart from dumping memory eight bytes at a > time and the ability to change the values stored in bytes, I can't figure > out if the monitor can do anything. Some of the hardware is very Apple The monitor does a lot. Try typing L and hitting return and you will get a disassembly. You can specify an address first, like F800L to start disassembly at $F800. > Is this thing just a glorified Apple ][ with an incompatible OS? Not entirely, but basically. > I took the machine apart, too, and I found a place for a battery on the > motherboard, with no battery or battery cover in it. Does the /// have a > system clock? Yes. > Does anyone know if the Apple ][+ or //e can be made to read/write Apple > /// disks in any manner that would be useful for getting files to it? Or > do I have to get software for it in actual disk form at first, before I > can get the thing to do anything useful? Not sure. Although I have one, I've never gotten around to even booting it up. > Can the /// emulate a ][? Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu May 1 02:33:14 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supply Message-ID: <3368473A.78E8@oboe.calpoly.edu> Was someone looking for an Atari power supply? I have one for the 400/800. Output 9V AC, 31 VA. I don't have any Atari computers left so whoever wants it it's $7 including postage. Greg From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 08:36:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supply In-Reply-To: <3368473A.78E8@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Greg Mast wrote: > Was someone looking for an Atari power supply? I have one for the > 400/800. Output 9V AC, 31 VA. > > I don't have any Atari computers left so whoever wants it it's $7 > including postage. $7 + postage? Take it to auction web. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu May 1 08:35:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430233026.007107a8@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, > >Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business > >Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then > >below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. > > You forgot the two dual Commodore PET disk drive units, and the four TRS-80 > single mini-disk units holding up the scope... I conveniently ignored those. I knew they were probably PET drives but never seen them before and didn't know for sure. > ...and one on its side near the left lower third of the pic that I can't > ID... (bad angle) Me niether. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at mail.northernway.net Thu May 1 08:59:35 1997 From: zmerch at mail.northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Atari Power Supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 1 May 1997, Greg Mast wrote: > > > Was someone looking for an Atari power supply? I have one for the > > 400/800. Output 9V AC, 31 VA. > > > > I don't have any Atari computers left so whoever wants it it's $7 > > including postage. > > $7 + postage? Take it to auction web. Sam, He states $7.00 *including* postage... and with the weight of the thing, it would prolly cost $1 to pack and $4 to ship, leaving not much of a profit, if that's what you seem so upset about with your terse statement. Please fully read the posts before replying like this... remember we're all family here! ;-) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From scott at saskatoon.com Thu May 1 09:07:19 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) Message-ID: <199705011404.IAA03042@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > Atari ST1024? Getting warmer... > >The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+, > >Apple //e, Altair 680, Commodore Pet, Commodore CBM Professional Business > >Computer, Commodore PET 2001, Macintosh (128? 512?), IBM PCjr. Then > >below the table: TRS-80 Model III and an Atari box. You'll have to be more careful with the Commodore machines. (You should be able to be more accurate, even without seeing the nameplate.) > You forgot the two dual Commodore PET disk drive units, and the four TRS-80 > single mini-disk units holding up the scope... It's pretty hard to tell the models of drives, they're a 2040 and a 8250. > >Oh, and an oscilliscope (my guess is Tektronix). > > Heathkit? (or an older single channel Tek) There's nothing really classic about the scope. It's a two channel 20Mhz Iwatsu. (No, I've never heard of them before either.) > ...and the PCjr has the later model keyboard... No chicklets??? No, and the monitor doesn't vertical lock. You have to keep playing with the hold knob :-( > ...and one on its side near the left lower third of the pic that I can't > ID... (bad angle) I've never really considered that one a part of my collection, although I think it now officially qualifies for this list. (i.e. 10 years old.) BIG HINT... it's the first 386 built by the company that, at the time was one of the biggest clone manufacturers around. There are plenty other (non-clone) machines by the same company in this picture. There are four machines barely exposed in the lower right corner, that I don't expect anyone to ID. There are, however, two very distinct original boxes. One under the atari, and one under the middle commodore machine. There's also all the stuff sitting on top of the commodore machines. Super bonus marks to anyone who can ID the thing on top of the scope. (No, it's not really computer related.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From gram at cnct.com Thu May 1 09:54:16 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) In-Reply-To: <199705011404.IAA03042@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > of the commodore machines. Super bonus marks to anyone who can ID > the thing on top of the scope. (No, it's not really computer related.) Looks like some kind of a slide viewer from here, but it's small enough that pixilation interferes with identification. -- Ward Griffiths "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"] From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 12:39:15 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Computers in shot (RE: yo) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B6BFC3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Starting from the very back, that is either a Commodore 128, Amiga 500 > or > some newer Atari. > Atari ST, you can tell by the monitor. The Amiga 500 is in the box. > The moving on to the far end of the table: Apple ][+ > Or II > Apple //e > Very probable given the monitor > Commodore Pet > CBM 2001 specifically > Commodore CBM Professional Business Computer > Either a CBM 2001 full size keyboard or a 4000 series. > Commodore PET 2001 > Probably an 8000 series > Macintosh (128? 512?) > Impossible to tell the difference visually without looking at the back Plus, the two TRS-80 model I's with expansion interfaces on top of the first two PETs, and some kind of probable microprocessor trainer to the left of the Altair. Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 12:49:57 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B6BFD8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Scott Walde[SMTP:scott@saskatoon.com] > | > Atari ST1024? | Getting warmer... Hmm, must be a 520. | BIG HINT... it's the first 386 built by the company | that, at the time was one of the biggest clone manufacturers around. | There are plenty other (non-clone) machines by the same company in | this picture. Aha - Tandy 4000, right? | There are four machines barely exposed in the lower right corner, | that I don't expect anyone to ID. I'm going out on a limb here... under the PCjr, an IBM PC? And under the Model III... would you have another Model III? Probably not... is it a Model IV? There's another Atari ST box, and something on its side by the Model III that could be a CoCo 1. | There are, however, two very | distinct original boxes. One under the atari, and one under the | middle commodore machine. Under the Atari, an Amiga 500. The box under the PET is an AST PC clone box... Premium 286? From zmerch at mail.northernway.net Thu May 1 12:58:05 1997 From: zmerch at mail.northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Contest In-Reply-To: <199705010359.VAA09570@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I can fill in some of the missing pieces: From scott at saskatoon.com Thu May 1 13:02:08 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: Basement (Was: Re: yo) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B6BFD8@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: > | distinct original boxes. One under the atari, and one under >the > | middle commodore machine. > >The box under the PET is an AST PC clone box... Premium 286? Actually, there is a small red and black box in the AST box. That's the one I'm talking about. ttfn srw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 1 15:54:10 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:30 2005 Subject: The List! Message-ID: Hi all. After getting your numerous recommendations on the last version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base RAM, Primary OS, and Class. I carry it with me when I go hunting - hopefully it will be useful to you too. As always - I'd love to hear from you with additions or corrections. This list is currently quite weak when it comes to pre-'78 machines, minis and bigger computers. I'm sure that just the DEC section should be three times as long. My resources only go so far ;). --- The Big List of Classic Computers Last Rev: 4/30/97 This list is compiled from various sources: fliers, magazines, ads, manuals, and price books. The information is as acurate as the original sources. I have removed PCs and clones from this list - they were taking up too much space. I may put together a separate PC list in the future. This list does not include game consoles, calculators, or word processors. If you have anything to add or revise, contact Bill Whitson (e-mail bill@booster.u.washington.edu). MODEL is the manufacturers model number. CPU indicates the type of CPU. RAM is the amount of RAM installed in a base unit. OS is the primary operating system or OS delivered with the unit. ADOS 3.X = Apple II DOS v3.x AMIGAOS = Amiga Operating System AMOS = Alpha-Microsystems Operating System ATRDOS = Atari Built-In OS CBMOS = Commodore Built-In OS CP/M = CP/M-80, CP/M-86, CP/M-68K, MP/M, etc... CROMIX = Cromemco CROMIX FLEX = FLEX GS/OS = Apple IIgs Operating System LOS = LISA Office System MACOS = MacOS OS/9 = OS/9 PRODOS16 = Apple 16bit ProDOS PRODOS8 = Apple 8bit ProDOS SOS = Apple III DOS TDOS = TurboDOS TOS = Atari ST Operating System UNIX = Any true UNIX variant TYPE is the class of computer MAIN = Computers physically larger than 2m x 2m x 2m MINI = Computers physically larger than 1m x 1m x 1m or which are composed of separate subsystems. MICRO = Single unit machines smaller than 1m x 1m x 1m PORT. = Portable (Lugabble, Laptop, Notebook, Handheld) units. YEAR is when the computer was first produced. ================================================================== MANUFACTURER MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR ================================================================== Acorn------------------------------------------------------------- Atom 6502 4K ?? MICRO 80 Bus. Comp. Model 100 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 110 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 200 6502 w/32016 512K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 210 6502 w/32016 4MB ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 300 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model 310 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Model PA 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 Bus. Comp. Terminal 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 Electron 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 Master 65C02 128K ?? MICRO 86 Model A 6502 16K ?? MICRO 81 Model B 6502 32K ?? MICRO 82 Model B+ 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 Proton 6502 16K ?? MICRO 81 System 1 6502 1K ?? MICRO 79 System 2 6502 32k ?? MICRO 80 Automated Computer Systems---------------------------------------- 4040 MC 4040 64K CP/M MICRO 78 8080 MC 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 8080 MCS 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 8080 MPU 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 8080/Z80 8008 w/Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Z80 MCS Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 81 Z80 MCS Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Action Computer Enterprise, Inc.---------------------------------- Discovery 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Discovery 1600 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Actrix Computers-------------------------------------------------- DSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 SSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Adra Systems------------------------------------------------------ Model 1000 68020 2.5MB ?? MICRO 86 Model 3000 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 Advanced Digital Corporation-------------------------------------- Super System II ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 SuperStar ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 Alcyon------------------------------------------------------------ APS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 APS/RMS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 APX 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 Alpha Info Systems------------------------------------------------ Model 100 8085 1MB ?? ?? 77 Model 100T 8085 1MB ?? ?? 79 Alpha MicroSystems------------------------------------------------ AM-680C 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 AM-680M 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 AM-1000 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 82 AM-1000E 68000 256K AMOS MICRO 83 AM-1000X 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 ALSPA Computer---------------------------------------------------- ACI-1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 ACI-2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Zero Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Altos Computer Systems-------------------------------------------- 3068 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 3068 EP 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 580-2 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 580-20 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 680-40 68000 ?? ?? MICRO 85 8000-10 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 8000-12 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 8000-14 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 Advanced Micro Devices-------------------------------------------- Model 96/4116 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 80 Ampere, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ WS1A 68000 64K ?? MICRO 85 WS1B 68000 256K ?? MICRO 85 Amstrad----------------------------------------------------------- CPC464 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 84 CPC664 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 85 CPC6128 Z80A 128K AMSDOS MICRO 85 PCW8256 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 85 PCW8512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 86 PCW9512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 87 APF Electronics--------------------------------------------------- IM1 6800 8K ?? MICRO 80 Apollo Computer--------------------------------------------------- 400/420 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Domain ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Apple Computer, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Apple II 6502 16K ADOS 3.X MICRO 77 Apple II+ 6502 48K ADOS 3.X MICRO 81 Apple IIc 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 85 Apple IIc+ 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 86 Apple IIe 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 82 Apple IIgs (ROM 01) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 86 Apple IIgs (ROM 02) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 87 Apple IIgs (ROM 03) 65C816 1.25MB GS/OS MICRO 88 Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 Apple III+ 6502 256K SOS MICRO 84 Lisa 1 68000 1MB LOS MICRO 83 Lisa 2 68000 512K LOS MICRO 84 Macintosh 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO 84 Macintosh 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 Macintosh Plus 68010 1MB MACOS MICRO 86 Macintosh Plus Enh. 68010 512K MACOS MICRO 86 Macintosh XL 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 Applied Digital Data Systems-------------------------------------- Multivision 1 8085 64k CP/M MICRO 80 Multivision 2 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Multivision 3 8085 192K CP/M MICRO 81 Applied Electronics----------------------------------------------- Model 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Applied Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- ASC 68000 68000 64K ?? MICRO 83 ASC Portable 8088 w/8085 32K ?? PORT. 83 AT&T-------------------------------------------------------------- 3704-040 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 3704-045 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 3704-065 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 3B2/300 WE32000 1MB UNIX MINI 86 3B2/400 WE32100 2MB UNIX MINI 86 7300A1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO 86 7300A2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 7300B1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO 86 7300D1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO 86 7300E2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 Atari------------------------------------------------------------- 1040ST 68010 512K TOS MICRO 85 1200XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 82 130XE 6502C 128K ATRDOS MICRO 85 400 6502 16K ATRDOS MICRO 79 520ST 68000 512K TOS MICRO 85 600XL 6502C 16K ATRDOS MICRO 83 65XE 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 85 800 6502 48K ATRDOS MICRO 79 800XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 83 Mega 2 68000 2MB ?? MICRO 87 Mega 4 68000 4MB ?? MICRO 87 XE Game System 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 87 Auragen Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- System 4000 68010 ?? ?? ?? 84 Barreto Associates------------------------------------------------ MicroMaster Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Barrington International------------------------------------------ Elite Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Barrister Info Systems-------------------------------------------- Law Office Manager Z80 ?? ?? ?? 75 Basis------------------------------------------------------------- Model 108 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 80 BBN Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ C60 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 80 C70 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 81 Beehive Corp.----------------------------------------------------- The Topper Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Bell Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- Model 4 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 Bell and Howell--------------------------------------------------- Model 78400 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 78401 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 78402 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 3016D 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 Model 3032D 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 Model 3048D 6502 48K ?? MICRO 83 Berkel Systems---------------------------------------------------- Model 4410 6502 16K ?? MICRO 74 Billings Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- System 500 II Z80 56K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000B Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000 II Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000 X Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 System 6000 XII Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 BC-12FD Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 79 BlackHawk Computers----------------------------------------------- BlackHawk 3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 BlackHawk 4 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 BMC, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- BMC-800 Model 20C Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 BMC-800 Model 20G Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Bondwell Computers------------------------------------------------ BW2 Z80C 64K CP/M MICRO 85 BW12 Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 85 BW14 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 BW16 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 BOS Systems------------------------------------------------------- BOS-M Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 81 Cyte 86 Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 82 BTI Computer Systems---------------------------------------------- BTI 4800 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? ?? 84 BTI 5000 Mark II Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 BTI 5000/ES Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 BTI 6000 Z80 W/8088 128K ?? ?? 84 BTI 8000 BTI8000 24MB ?? ?? 85 Burroughs Corp.--------------------------------------------------- B1800 Z80 w/80186 64K ?? MICRO 83 B1910 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 83 B1913 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 83 OW400 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 CADO Systems------------------------------------------------------ CAT III 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 System 20/20 8085 48K ?? MICRO 78 System 20/28 8085 96K ?? MICRO 83 CCG--------------------------------------------------------------- Micro 11 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 Ultra 11/730 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra 11/750 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra PDP 11/44 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra PDP 11/73 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 Ultra PDP 11/23 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 California Computer Systems--------------------------------------- Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Model 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 200 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 System 300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 System 400 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 System 410 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 System 420 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Callan Data Systems----------------------------------------------- CD 100 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 81 CD 100M 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 UniStar 100 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 UniStar 200 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 UniStar 300 NS16032 512K UNIX ?? 84 Canaan Computer Corp.--------------------------------------------- 5410Z ?? ?? ?? ?? 85 5412-P1 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 5412-P2 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Canon, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- TX-10/15 6809 16K ?? MICRO 80 Casio, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- FX-9000 6809 4K ?? MICRO 83 Computer Consoles, Inc.------------------------------------------- Power 5/20 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Control Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ Cyber 18 6809 16K ?? MICRO 76 Model 110 6809 64K ?? MICRO 83 Computer Enhancement Corp.---------------------------------------- CE Micro 1 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Centurion Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ Model 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 5200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Model 5300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Model 6100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 6200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 6300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 6400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 6500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Model 7100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 9200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Micro Plus ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Century Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- System 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 System 400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 System 700 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 System 900 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 Vanguard 8000 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Vanguard 8200 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Vanguard 8500 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 X1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 X2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 Challenge Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- CS1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Charles River Data Systems---------------------------------------- Universe 32/115T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 Universe 32/137T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 Universe 32/35 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 Universe 65/115T 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 Universe 68/05 68000 256K ?? ?? 82 Universe 68/137T 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Universe 68/67 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 Universe 68/35 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Universe 2402 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 Universe 2403 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Charter Information Corp.----------------------------------------- System 4 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 CIE Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- 680/20 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 680/30-10 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 680/35 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 680/40 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 680/50 68020 1MB ?? ?? 87 680/100 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 680/150 68020 8MB ?? ?? 87 680/200 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 CMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- SuperSystem 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 SuperSystem 2 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Codex Corporation------------------------------------------------- Model 268/21 68000 ?? ?? MICRO 83 Model 268/24 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 Model 268/44 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 Colby Computer---------------------------------------------------- MacColby 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO 84 MacColby 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 Coleco Industries, Inc.------------------------------------------- ADAM Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 Colonial Data Services-------------------------------------------- SB80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Columbia Data Products-------------------------------------------- Commander 500 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander 964 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander F64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander FX Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 79 Commander M64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Comark Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Disktor M1 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Disktor M3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 Disktor Q ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 MB 85/285 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 79 Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 16 6510 16K ?? MICRO 84 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 CBM 3008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 4004 6502 4K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 4008 6502 8K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 4016 6502 16K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 4032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 8008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 8096 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8296 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM SP9000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? Executive 64 6510 64K CBMOS PORT. 83 PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 Plus 4 6510 64K ?? MICRO 84 SuperPET 6502 w/6809 96K ?? MICRO 81 VIC-20 6502 5K ?? MICRO 81 Compal Computer Systems------------------------------------------- 8200+ Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Electric Briefcase Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 EZ Type Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 83 CompTech---------------------------------------------------------- EVE II 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 CompuCorp--------------------------------------------------------- Model 745 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 799 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 Compupro Systems-------------------------------------------------- MP-10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO 83 System 816/10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/A 8085 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 82 System 816/B 8085 w/8088 256K CP/M MICRO 82 System 816/C 8085 w/8088 512K CP/M MICRO 82 System 816/E 68000 256K CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/G ?? 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/GG Z80 w/68000 512K CP/M MICRO 84 System 816/Z Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 84 The Computerist--------------------------------------------------- Focus 6809 30K FLEX MICRO 82 Covergent Technologies-------------------------------------------- MiniFrame 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 MiniFrame Plus 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 MightyFrame 68020 1MB ?? MICRO 86 Cortex Systems---------------------------------------------------- Microdent 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Microdent 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Cromemco, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- C10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 CS-1 Z80 w/68000 256K CROMIX MICRO 82 CS100 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 85 CS110 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 86 CS115 68020 2MB UNIX MICRO 87 CS120 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 CS200 68010 1MB ?? MINI 86 CS220 68020 2MB ?? MINI 86 CS300 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 CS400 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 CS420 68020 4MB ?? MINI 86 D System 1 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 82 D System 100 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 D System 3 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 83 D System 300 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 Z System 0 Z80 1MB ?? MICRO 82 Z System 1 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 82 Z System 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Z System 3 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 CYB Systems------------------------------------------------------- MultiBox I 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 MultiBox II 68000 768K UNIX ?? 82 Cyberchron-------------------------------------------------------- C21 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 C41 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 C45 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 CDS-201 68000 64K ?? ?? 79 CDS-231 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 Data General Corp------------------------------------------------- CB/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CEO ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 CS/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 CS/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 CS/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 CS/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 CS/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 CS/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 CS/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Eclipse C/150 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Eclipse C/350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Eclipse MV/4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Eclipse S/120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Eclipse S/130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Eclipse S/140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Eclipse S/250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Eclipse S/280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Enterprise 1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Enterprise 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 MPT/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 MPT/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Nova 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Nova 4 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datamac Computer Systems------------------------------------------ Series 1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Datapoint Corp.--------------------------------------------------- Model 1560 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Model 8600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 8800 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 81 Series 1800 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Series 4000 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Series 6600 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 Datavue Corp.----------------------------------------------------- 80/100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 80/200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 80/300 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 80/400 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 83 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 DEC--------------------------------------------------------------- Correspondent ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 150 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 208 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Datasystem 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 315 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 320 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 336 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 356 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Datasystem 512 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 DECMate II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Micro/PDP-11 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 MicroVAX I ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 PDP-11/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 PDP-11/24 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 PDP-11/34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 PDP-11/44 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 PDP-11/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 Professional 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Professional 325 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Professional 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Professional 380 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Rainbow 100 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Rainbow 100+ Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Robin ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 VAX-11/730 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 VAX-11/750 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Deltadata Systems Corp.------------------------------------------- D8000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Micro Manager Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Delta Products Inc.----------------------------------------------- Delta One Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Delta Two Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Delta Four Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 83 DP/Net ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 DP/125 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 83 Digicomp Research------------------------------------------------- System 100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Digidyne---------------------------------------------------------- 5832 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 5864 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 Series 200 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Digital Microsystems---------------------------------------------- DMS-3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 DMS-4 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 80 DMS-15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 DMS-86 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 DMS-1280 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 DMS-5080 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 DMS-5086 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Digital Technology------------------------------------------------ Model 580 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Digitex----------------------------------------------------------- Model 7100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 7200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 7300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 7500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 8500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Dimension Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ 1000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 1020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 2010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 3010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 3020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 Direct, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 1025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model 1031 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Display Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ Insight Z80 64K ?? ?? 74 DMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- Commfile Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 78 Docutel----------------------------------------------------------- BCS 2025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 BCS 2030 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 DC-M18 68000 100K MS-DOS MICRO 84 M10 8085 8K ?? PORT. 84 M20 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 P6060 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 77 S6000 Z8000 64K ?? MICRO 81 DTC--------------------------------------------------------------- 710 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 A22 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 83 B23 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 82 Micro 210A 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Micro 210B 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Data Technology Industries---------------------------------------- Associate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 79 Dual Systems Control Corp.---------------------------------------- 83/20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 83/80 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 83/500 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 Durango Systems Inc.---------------------------------------------- 800 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 79 800XR 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 900 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 910 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Dynabyte Business Computers--------------------------------------- 6600 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 6900 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Monarch 6000 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Eagle Computer Inc.----------------------------------------------- Eagle IIE Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Eagle III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Eagle IV Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 ECS Microsystems-------------------------------------------------- ECS 4500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 ECS 4650 Z80 80K CP/M MICRO 82 EEC Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- Micropower/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Micropower/W ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Elan Computers---------------------------------------------------- Enterprise 64 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Enterprise 128 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 84 Epic Computers---------------------------------------------------- Episode 2296 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Epson, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- Geneva PX-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 HX-20 Z80 16K ?? PORT. 83 QX-10 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 QX-16 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 84 Esprit Computer Products------------------------------------------ Model S1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model S1016 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model S1500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Model S1516 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Model S1800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Model 900 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 ETR, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- Star System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Eve Computers----------------------------------------------------- Eve II PC 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 Eve Portable 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X PORT. 84 Evolution Computer Systems---------------------------------------- Model 140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 160 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 240 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 260 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Exo Systems------------------------------------------------------- System 5 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 8 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 58 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Exxon Office Systems---------------------------------------------- 510 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 520 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 530 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 8400 Series Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Facit, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- Model 6500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 FI Electronics---------------------------------------------------- Series 7240 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 81 Financial Business Computers-------------------------------------- FBC Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 Findex------------------------------------------------------------ Model 0X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 0X2 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 Model 9X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 Formation, Inc.--------------------------------------------------- F/4000-101 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 F/4000-201 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 F/4000-301 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 Fortune Systems Corp.--------------------------------------------- 32:16 PS-10 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 32:16 PS-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 32:16 68000 128K UNIX ?? 81 32:16 XP-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 32:16 XP-30 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 Fortune Formula 68020 ?? UNIX ?? 86 SX45 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 SX45T 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 SX70 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 XP45 68000 512K ?? ?? 85 Forward Technology------------------------------------------------ Grpahics Workstation 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 Four-Phase Systems------------------------------------------------ IV/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 IV/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 IV/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 IV/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/65 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/90 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 IV/95 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Franklin Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- Ace 10 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 Ace 1100 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 Ace 1000 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 Ace 1200 6502 w/Z80 128K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 Ace 500 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 Fujitsu, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- Micro 16S Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 83 Garrett Computing Systems----------------------------------------- GSC/440 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 GEAC Computers---------------------------------------------------- System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 General Automation------------------------------------------------ Model 930 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 Model 940 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 Model 950 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 Zebra 700 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 84 Zebra 750 68000 128K XENIX MICRO 84 Zebra 1000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 1500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 2000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 2500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 3000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 3500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 Zebra 5500 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 General Robotics-------------------------------------------------- BA500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 BA800L ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 Scorpio 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 Super Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 Super Pegasus 68000 64K ?? ?? 77 Super Tristar 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 Hagen Systems----------------------------------------------------- Mark Ten ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Harris Corp.------------------------------------------------------ H60 68000 768K ?? ?? 84 H600 68000 1.5MB ?? ?? 83 H700 68000 384K ?? ?? 82 Model 1640 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 1650 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Heurikon Corp.---------------------------------------------------- HK68 68000 128K UNIX ?? 84 Minibox 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 MLZ Z80 16K ?? ?? 83 Modular Box 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 Hon Computing Systems--------------------------------------------- Hon IV ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Hon V ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Honeywell Bull, Inc.---------------------------------------------- DPS 6/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 DPS 6/45 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Level 6-23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Level 6-33 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 Level 6-37 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Level 6-43 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Level 6-47 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Level 6-53 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Level 6-57 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 System XPS-100-10 68010 512K ?? ?? 86 System XPS-100-20 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 System XPS-100-40 68020 4MB ?? ?? 86 HP---------------------------------------------------------------- HP 1000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 HP 300 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 HP 3000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 HP 85A ?? 16K ?? MICRO 82 HP 85B ?? ?? ?? MICRO 86 HP 86B Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 HP 87XM ?? 128K ?? MICRO 82 HP 9825B ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 HP 9845B ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 HP 9915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Series 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Series 200 68000 512K CP/M MICRO 82 Integrated Business Computers------------------------------------- C-1064R Z80B 64K ?? ?? 84 Cadet Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 Ensign 68010 1MB ?? ?? 84 Ensign 386:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 Ensign 682:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 Ensign Oasis 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Middi-Cadet Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 Middi-Cadet High Perf. Z80H 512K ?? MICRO 84 Multi-Star I Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 Multi-Star II Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 Super Cadet Z80H 320K ?? MICRO 84 System 68 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 IBM--------------------------------------------------------------- 6/430 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 5110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 5120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 8130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 8140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 System 34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 System 36 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 System 38 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 ICL, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- DRS20 8085 w/8088 150K ?? MICRO 82 Immediate Business Systems---------------------------------------- FS 2000 8085 w/8088 32K ?? ?? 83 IMPC-------------------------------------------------------------- Access Matrix Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Impelco----------------------------------------------------------- IMP 800C Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 IMP 816C Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 84 IMS International------------------------------------------------- 5000IS Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 82 5000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 8000S Z80 w/8088 128K TDOS MICRO 81 8000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 Information Devices----------------------------------------------- Micro Plus Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Infotecs, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- Control Center 2 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Innotronics------------------------------------------------------- Model 6100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Intecolor Corporation--------------------------------------------- 3651 8080 32K ?? MICRO 80 8052 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 8352 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 Intelligent Systems----------------------------------------------- Intecolor 8050 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 Intecolor 8064 8080 8K ?? MICRO 79 Intelligent Graphics 8080 64K ?? MICRO 82 Interphase Corp.-------------------------------------------------- Baseboard SBC 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 Intersil Systems, Inc.-------------------------------------------- 1SB-80/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 1SB-809/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 Intertec Data Systems--------------------------------------------- Compustar VPU 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Compustar VPU 20 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Compustar VPU 30 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Compustar VPU 40 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Headstart VPU 128 Z80 w/8086 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Headstart VPU 512 Z80 w/8086 512K CP/M MICRO 84 Headstart VPU 1000 Z80 w/8086 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 Super Brain II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Ithaca Intersystems----------------------------------------------- Encore 580 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Encore 880 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Encore 58000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 83 Ithaca 525 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Jacquard, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- J100 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 75 J200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 J300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 J425 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 77 J500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 J6000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 87 Jade Computer Products-------------------------------------------- System III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Jonos International----------------------------------------------- C2000 Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 C2100 Z80A w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 85 C2150 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 C2550 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 C2600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Escort C2100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Escort C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Kaypro Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Kaypro 2x300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 Kaypro 4 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 Kaypro 10 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 Kaypro II Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 82 Kaypro II Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 Kaypro IV Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 Robie 300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 Kontron Electronics----------------------------------------------- PSI 80 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 Kowin Computer Corp.---------------------------------------------- Kowin II 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 Kowin II Plus 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 Kowin III 68020 3MB ?? ?? 87 Lanier Business Products------------------------------------------ Computereze Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Shared System II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 LMC--------------------------------------------------------------- System I NS16032 512K ?? ?? 84 System II NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 System III NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 LNW Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- LNW 80-I Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 81 LNW 80-II Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 81 Lobo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------ Max-80 Z80B 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Logical Business Machines----------------------------------------- Adam ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 David ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Goliath ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Tina ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 MAI--------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Four Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 System 110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 System 310 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 510 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 System 710 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System S/10 Z80 128K ?? ?? 82 System S/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Martec International---------------------------------------------- IBEX 2000 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 77 IBEX 7000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 Matrox Electronic Systems----------------------------------------- MACS-10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Multitech Electronics, Inc.--------------------------------------- MIC-501 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 MIC-504 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Memotech Corp.---------------------------------------------------- MTX 512 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Microcomputer Technology------------------------------------------ MOD III Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 80 Personal Executive Z80 1MB CP/M MICRO 82 Microcraft Corp.-------------------------------------------------- Dimension 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 Microdata Corp.--------------------------------------------------- 7608 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 7905 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 7907 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 7915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 7917 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Reality 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Reality 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Reality 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Reality 7000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Reality 8000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Sovereign 7920 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Sovereign 7930 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Sovereign 7940 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Micro-Expander, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Expander Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Micromation, Inc.------------------------------------------------- M/System Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Mariner 9000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 Microsystems International---------------------------------------- Multinet Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Milwaukee Computers----------------------------------------------- MC-100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 Mini-Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- Micos 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Micos 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 Micos 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Mohawk Data Sciences Corp.---------------------------------------- Model 21/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 21/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Model 21/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Model 21/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Model 21/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 21/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Momentum Computer Systems----------------------------------------- Model 32 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 Monroe Systems---------------------------------------------------- EC 8800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 Microdecision 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 OC 8810 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 OC 8820 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 OC 8828 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 81 Morrow Designs, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Decision 1 D120 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Decision 1 D200 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Decision 1 D210 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 Decision 1 D220 Z80 512K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 3P Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 5 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Microdecision MD 11 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 16 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Microdecision MD 34 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Tricep 68000 256K UNIX MICRO 84 Mostek Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Matrix-80 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Motorola---------------------------------------------------------- Exormacs 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 Exorset 110 6809 56K ?? MICRO 83 M-6809 6809 64K ?? MICRO 78 VME/10 68000 384K UNIX MICRO 83 MSI Data---------------------------------------------------------- MSI/88S 68000 56K ?? MICRO 82 Musys Corp.------------------------------------------------------- NetWork 8816 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 83 NetWork 8820 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 84 Nabu Manufacturing------------------------------------------------ Personal Computer Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 NBI, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- System 1 68000 ?? UNIX ?? 84 Technical Workstation 68000 1MB UNIX ?? 84 NCR Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- Decision Mate V Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 I-9010 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 I-9020 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 I-9040 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 PC-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 PC-8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 82 NEC--------------------------------------------------------------- PC6000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 PC6001A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 86 PC8201A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 PC8401A Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 PC8800 Z80 w/80086 64K ?? MICRO 83 PC8801A Z80 w/8086 64K ?? MICRO 86 Astra 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Astra 205 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Astra 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Astra 230 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Astra 250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Astra 270 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Astra 330 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Astra 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Astra 370 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Nelma Data Corp.-------------------------------------------------- Persona Z80 ?? ?? MICRO 82 Persona II Z80 w/8088 192K ?? MICRO 83 New England Digital----------------------------------------------- A-40 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 A-60 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 78 Nixdorf Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- Model 80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 Model 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 Model 8810 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Model 8845 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 8870/M15 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 8870/1 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 Model 8870/3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Model 8890/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 8890/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 Model 8890/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 NNC Electronics--------------------------------------------------- System 80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 System 80W Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 NorthStar Computers----------------------------------------------- Advantage 8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Advantage Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Horizon 8/16 Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Horizon Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 77 Northern Telecom Terminal Sys.------------------------------------ 405 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 445 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 503 8085 256K ?? MICRO 81 M4120 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 M4121 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 M4122 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 Ohio Scientific--------------------------------------------------- MasterKey 220 6502 48K OS-65 MICRO 83 MasterKey 230 6502 52K OS-65 MICRO 82 MasterKey 250 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 MasterKey 330 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 MasterKey 350 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 MasterKey 2301 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 OSI-710 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 OSI-720 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 WorkSystem 200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 WorkSystem 300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 Olympia USA, Inc.------------------------------------------------- OPC 6502 52K ?? MICRO 82 Omni-Source------------------------------------------------------- OS-26 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 OS-48 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 OS-526 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 OS-548 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 OS-826 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 OS-848 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 Ontel Corp.------------------------------------------------------- 1505 Z80 w/6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 1507 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 Amigo Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 Onyx Systems Inc.------------------------------------------------- 6810 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 84 C8001 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 C8002 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 C8002A ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Sundance 16 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 Sundance ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Sundance II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 System 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 System 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 Osborne Computer-------------------------------------------------- Osborne 1 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 81 Osborne Executive Z80 128K CP/M PORT. 83 Vixen Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 OSM Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ Zeus 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Zeus 2-16 Z80 w/8088 320K ?? MICRO 83 Zeus 3 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 Zeus 3X ?? ?? ?? MICRO 85 Zeus 4 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 Zeus 16 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 Otrona Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Attache Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Panasonic--------------------------------------------------------- Link HHC 6502 4K ?? MICRO 83 RL-H 6502 8K ?? MICRO 81 PCE Systems------------------------------------------------------- Voyager I ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 Voyager II ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 Pegasus Data Systems---------------------------------------------- Peanut Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Pegasus Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Personal Microcomputers, Inc.------------------------------------- PMC Micromate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 PMC 80 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 80 PMC 81 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 81 PMC 101 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Pertec Computer Corp---------------------------------------------- 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 3200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 XL50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 Phoenix Digital Corp.--------------------------------------------- CPW 09 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 Optoview 100 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 Plessy Peripheral Systems----------------------------------------- System-24 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 System-44 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 Plexus Computers, Inc.-------------------------------------------- P/25 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 P/35 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 Point Four Data--------------------------------------------------- Mark 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 Mark 5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 Mark 8 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 Polo Microsystems, Inc.------------------------------------------- Polo System I Z80 w/80188 128K CP/M MICRO 84 Polymorphic Systems----------------------------------------------- Model 813 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 77 Model 8810 Z80 w/80186 256K ?? MICRO 83 Pragmatic Design-------------------------------------------------- Inspector 200 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 81 Product Associates------------------------------------------------ Z Disk I Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Z Disk II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Z Disk III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Q1 Corporation---------------------------------------------------- Microlite II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Quasar Data Products---------------------------------------------- QDP-100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 QDP-200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 QDP-300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Quasar Company---------------------------------------------------- HHC 6502 2K ?? ?? 83 Quasitronics------------------------------------------------------ Q-5048 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 82 Quay-------------------------------------------------------------- 90 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 900 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 910M ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 82 Rabbit Computer, Inc.--------------------------------------------- Wrap Bit II Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 Rair Microcomputer Corp.------------------------------------------ Black Box 3/30 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Black Box 3/50 8085 256K ?? MICRO 82 Business Computer 8085 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 82 Sage Computer Technology------------------------------------------ Sage II 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 Sage IV 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 Sanyo Business Systems Corp.-------------------------------------- MBC-1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 MBC-1100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 MBC-1150 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 MBC-1160 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 MBC-1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 MBC-1250 Z80 (x2) 64K CP/M MICRO 85 MBC-2000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 MBC-3000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 MBC-4050 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 85 PHC-20 8085 4K ?? ?? 83 Scenic Computer Systems------------------------------------------- Scenic 8085 70K ?? MICRO 81 Scientific Data Systems------------------------------------------- 420 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 Seattle Computer Products----------------------------------------- Gazelle I 8086 128K CP/M MICRO 82 Seequa Computer--------------------------------------------------- Chameleon Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 PC Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 84 XT Z80 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 84 Sharp Electronics------------------------------------------------- PC-1211 6809 2K ?? ?? 81 PC-1250A 6809 ?? ?? ?? 84 PC-1260 6809 4K ?? ?? 84 PC-1261 6809 10K ?? ?? 84 PC-1350 6809 5K ?? ?? 84 PC-1500A 6809 8K ?? ?? 83 System 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 System 200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Sierra Computer Systems------------------------------------------- CX Workstation 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 Sierra National--------------------------------------------------- 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 4000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 SKS Computers----------------------------------------------------- SKS 1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Solo Systems------------------------------------------------------ 1116 Solostation 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 Sony Video Communications----------------------------------------- SMC-70 Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 82 Sord Computers, Inc.---------------------------------------------- IS-11 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 M 23 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 M 68 Z80 w/68000 256K ?? MICRO 83 M 68MX 68000 512K ?? MICRO 87 Southern Computer Systems----------------------------------------- Series 8000 8088 w/8085 128K ?? MICRO 83 Sperry Corporation------------------------------------------------ BC/7-600 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 83 Mapper 5 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 Star Technologies, Inc.------------------------------------------- M1 68000 512K ?? ?? 82 Ministar 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 81 Ministar 1200 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 Nanostar 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 Stride Micro------------------------------------------------------ 420 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 440 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 460 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 Sumicom, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- 830 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 83 Systems Group----------------------------------------------------- 2900 Z80 128K ?? ?? 81 ExpressLine 68000 768K ?? ?? 83 Syzygy------------------------------------------------------------ Syzygy Computer System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Tandy Corporation------------------------------------------------- 4D Micro Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 102 80C85 32K ?? PORT. 86 200 80C85 24K ?? PORT. 85 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 Color Computer 2 6809E 64K ?? MICRO 84 Color Computer 3 6809E 128K ?? MICRO 86 PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 TRS-80 Model 4P Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 TRS-80 Model 12 Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 TRS-80 Model 16B 68000 w/Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 TRS-80 Model 100 Z80 24K ?? MICRO 83 TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 TRS-80 Model II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 TRS-80 Model III Z80 64K ?? MICRO 80 TRS-80 PC-1 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 TRS-80 PC-2 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 82 Tano Corporation-------------------------------------------------- AVT-2 6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 Tarbell Electronics----------------------------------------------- Empire Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 Rebel Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Televideo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- TPC I Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 TS 800 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 86 TS 802 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 82 TS 803 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 TS 804 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 TS 806 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 81 TS 816 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 82 3R Computer Products---------------------------------------------- Avatar TC10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 Avatar TC3278 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Texas Instruments------------------------------------------------- 99/2 TMS9900 4K ?? MICRO 83 99/4A TMS9900 16K ?? MICRO 83 200 TMS9900 64K ?? ?? 83 300 TMS9900 128K ?? ?? 83 990 TMS9900 2MB ?? ?? 81 CC 40 TMS9900 6K ?? ?? 83 Timex Computer---------------------------------------------------- TS 1000 Z80 1K ?? MICRO 83 TS 2000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 Torch Computers--------------------------------------------------- Model CF110 Z80 w/6502 96K ?? MICRO 82 Toshiba, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- EW100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 81 T100 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 T200 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 T250 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 Vector Graphic, Inc.---------------------------------------------- Vector 4 Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 Vector 5005E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Vector 5010E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Vector 5032E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 Vector SX-2000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 Vector SX-3000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 Vector SX-5000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 Video Technology Computers, Inc.---------------------------------- Laser 50 Z80 2K ?? PORT. 84 Laser 128 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 Laser 128EX 65C02 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 Laser 200 6502 4K ?? ?? 83 Laser 3000 6502 64K ?? ?? 83 Wicat Systems, Inc.----------------------------------------------- System 150 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 155 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 160 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 300 68000 2MB ?? ?? 83 System 2200 68000 1MB ?? ?? 83 Xerox Corporation------------------------------------------------- System 744-I Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 System 744-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 16/8 Z80 w/8086 192K ?? MICRO 83 820-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Zeda Computers---------------------------------------------------- 520 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 580A Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 Zilog, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- System 8000/11 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 8000/12 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 System 8000/21 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 System 8000/22 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 System 8000/32 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 ================================================================== From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu May 1 16:16:37 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at May 1, 97 01:54:10 pm Message-ID: <199705012116.PAA26388@calico.litterbox.com> Um... if there was ever a ROM02 apple2 GS I've not heard of it. And GSOS will work on anything above a ROM0 GS. There were 3 versions of GS that I know about. ROM 0 - the Woz signature edition. Only runs prodos 16 and prodos 8 and dos3.3 ROM 1 - The most common - Will run all of the above + GSOS. ROM 3 - Somewhat more rare. Runs GSOS. Will NOT run dos 3.3 and possibly prodos 16. More ram on the motherboard (1 mb) (previous models had the same motherboard and 256k on it) Will run appletalk through the serial or printer port without taking up 2 slots. ROM 4 - The next generation. Never made it past prototype. VERY rare. Also, if y'all find an apple2 ethernet board, I would love to get my hands on one. They only were made for the GS and again they never came out of pre-production. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 1 16:28:24 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <199705012116.PAA26388@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Jim wrote: Boy - you strike like lightning when I make a stupid comment! ;) I've obviously gotta stop talking Apple around here :))) > Um... if there was ever a ROM02 apple2 GS I've not heard of it. And GSOS > will work on anything above a ROM0 GS. There were 3 versions of GS that > I know about. My attempt is to use the OS that came with the system and I'm not totally clear on when ProDOS 16 turned into GS/OS. Any ideas? And of course - the ROM thing was just a silly mistake - thanks for pointing it out. > ROM 4 - The next generation. Never made it past prototype. VERY rare. My question is - was there more than one prototype made? I've only heard of one. If there were more it might be worth listing it. > Also, if y'all find an apple2 ethernet board, I would love to get my hands > on one. They only were made for the GS and again they never came out of > pre-production. Last I heard there were only a few of these and that they were in the hands of Apple or ex- personnel. I wonder if it would be possible to reproduce it with a schematic... Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 1 17:32:24 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at May 1, 97 01:54:10 pm Message-ID: <9705012132.AA12001@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 531 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970501/adc0357d/attachment-0001.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Thu May 1 16:39:39 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at May 1, 97 02:28:24 pm Message-ID: <199705012139.PAA26505@calico.litterbox.com> Um... in that case, the rom0 and rom1 shipped originally with prodos 16. GSOS shipped with the later rom01s, I think - I have an early one and a late one. The early one came with prodos 16, the late one shipped with gsos 5. They both are (or will soon) run gsos 6.0.1, the final version. And I only know about GSs. :) Which is ironic, since in those days I was a rabid c=64 user. :) -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From MPritchard at ensemble.net Thu May 1 18:03:19 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199705012301.QAA13346@mx3.u.washington.edu> > >Yeah, but then people realized a lot of computer geeks make a lot of > >money, and they stopped laughing at them. > > We do? Why wasn't I told???? > > > -Matt Pritchard > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 17:58:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E2C3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Great list! Some additions & changes: - Add: Advanced Micro Devices AM-2900, AMD 2901, 1978 - Add: Apple I, 1976 - Add: Apple/Tempest TPI 863T milspec Macintosh, 68000, 1986 - Add: Apple/Honeywell "Black Apple" custom manufactured Apple II+ - Add: Atari 1040STE - 1989 (improved 1040ST) - Change: Atari Mega machines were the Mega ST (with 1, 2 or 4MB, 1987) and the Mega STE (improved, 1991). I've never heard of a "Mega 1" or "Mega 2" - Add: Atari ATW800 Transputer Workstation, 1988 - Add: AT&T 3B1, 68010, 2MB, 1985 - Add: Commodore KIM-1 singleboard, 6502, 1K, 1976 - Add: Commodore Amiga 2000/3000/4000 (Too new?) - Change: Commodore Executive 64 official designation was SX-64 - Change: Cromemco Z's were Z2, Z3, with & without a D for Disk drive, as in Z2D--don't think there was a Z1. The "System" line was separate. I think the only one was the System 3, aka "CS-3" (I've got one), Z80A, ~1978. - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General portable - Add: Data Science XOR, Z80A, 64K, 1981 - Add: E&L MMD-1 Singleboard, 8080, 1977 - Add: Exidy Sorcerer, Z80, 1978 - Add: Heathkit H8, 8080, 1977 - Add: Heathkit H11, LSI-11, 1977 - Add: IBM 5100, no microprocessor, 1975 - Add: IMSAI 8080, 8080, 1977 - Add: Intecolor CompuColor II, 8080A, ~1979 - Add: Integrated Computer Systems (ICS) Suitcase Trainer, NEC 8255, 1978 - Add: Intel Intellec-8, 8008, 1973 - Add: Intersil Intercept Jr. singleboard, IM6100, 1976 - Change: Intertec Superbrain II was actually 2xZ80. There's also a Superbrain II Jr, don't know what the difference is - Add: Ithaca InterSystems DPS-1, Z80, ~1978 - Change: "Kaypro Corp" should be Non-Linear Systems - Add: Mattel Aquarius, Z80A, 4K, 1983 - Add: Micro Design Z80 Starter Kit singleboard, Z80, 1976 - Add: Micro Mint Z8 Basic/Micro, Z8, 1981 - Add: Micro Technology Unlimited (MTU) MTU-130, 6502, 80K, 1981 - Add: MITS Altair 680, 68000, 1976 - Add: MITS Altair 8800, 8080, 1975 - Add: MITS Altair 8800b, 8080, 1976 - Add: NEC PC8001, Z80, 1979 - Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim Shoppa has one) - Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS - Add: Ohio Scientific (tons of other models, I'll have to look in a magazine) - Change: Onyx C8002 was Z8000, 256K, Unix, 1980 - Add: Panasonic JR200U, 6802, 32K - Add: Polymorphic Poly-88, 8080?, 1976 - Add: Processor Technology Sol-20, 8080A, 1976 - Add: RCA COSMAC ELF, RCA1802, 1977 - Add: RCA COSMAC VIP, RCA1802 - Add: Sanyo MBC-550 - Add: Scelbi 8H (kit), 8008, 1973 - Add: Southwest Technical Products (SWTPC) 6800 Computer System, 6800, 1977 - Add: Southwest Technical Products (SWTPC) other lineup (M6809, etc. need to look in a magazine) - Add: Spectravideo 318, Z80, 32K, 1983 - Add: Spectravideo 328, Z80, 64K, 1984 - Add: Sphere Corporation Sphere-1, 6800, 4K, 1975 - Add: Synertek SYM-1 singleboard, 6502, 1978 - Add: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4, Z80 - Change: Tandy "4D Micro" should be TRS-80 Model 4D, Z80 - Add: Tandy TRS-80 Model 1, Z80, 1978 - Change: Tandy TRS-80 Model 1/2/3/4 operating systems should be TRSDOS - Change: Tandy TRS-80 Model 16B operating system should be XENIX/TRSDOS - Change: Tandy TRS-80 Micro Color Computer RAM should be 4K - Add: Timex-Sinclair ZX80, NEC 780-1, 1K, 1980 - Add: Timex-Sinclair ZX81, Z80A, 1K, 1981 - Add: Timex-Sinclair ZX1000 - Add: Titus Mark-8 (plans only), 8008, 1974 - Add: Vector Graphic 1, 1977 - Add: Xerox Alto, 1974 - Add: Xerox Star, 1977 - Change: Zenith Z89 OS was CP/M 2.2 Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson[SMTP:bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 1997 1:54 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: The List! > > Hi all. > > After getting your numerous recommendations on the last > version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It > now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base > RAM, Primary OS, and Class. I carry it with me when I > go hunting - hopefully it will be useful to you too. > > As always - I'd love to hear from you with additions or > corrections. This list is currently quite weak when it > comes to pre-'78 machines, minis and bigger computers. > I'm sure that just the DEC section should be three times > as long. My resources only go so far ;). > > --- > The Big List of Classic Computers > Last Rev: 4/30/97 > > This list is compiled from various sources: fliers, magazines, > ads, manuals, and price books. The information is as acurate as > the original sources. > > I have removed PCs and clones from this list - they were taking > up too much space. I may put together a separate PC list in the > future. This list does not include game consoles, calculators, > or word processors. > > If you have anything to add or revise, contact Bill Whitson > (e-mail bill@booster.u.washington.edu). > > MODEL is the manufacturers model number. > CPU indicates the type of CPU. > RAM is the amount of RAM installed in a base unit. > OS is the primary operating system or OS delivered with the unit. > ADOS 3.X = Apple II DOS v3.x > AMIGAOS = Amiga Operating System > AMOS = Alpha-Microsystems Operating System > ATRDOS = Atari Built-In OS > CBMOS = Commodore Built-In OS > CP/M = CP/M-80, CP/M-86, CP/M-68K, MP/M, etc... > CROMIX = Cromemco CROMIX > FLEX = FLEX > GS/OS = Apple IIgs Operating System > LOS = LISA Office System > MACOS = MacOS > OS/9 = OS/9 > PRODOS16 = Apple 16bit ProDOS > PRODOS8 = Apple 8bit ProDOS > SOS = Apple III DOS > TDOS = TurboDOS > TOS = Atari ST Operating System > UNIX = Any true UNIX variant > > TYPE is the class of computer > MAIN = Computers physically larger than 2m x 2m x 2m > MINI = Computers physically larger than 1m x 1m x 1m or which > are composed of separate subsystems. > MICRO = Single unit machines smaller than 1m x 1m x 1m > PORT. = Portable (Lugabble, Laptop, Notebook, Handheld) units. > YEAR is when the computer was first produced. > > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE > YR > ================================================================== > Acorn------------------------------------------------------------- > Atom 6502 4K ?? MICRO 80 > Bus. Comp. Model 100 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 110 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 200 6502 w/32016 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 210 6502 w/32016 4MB ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 300 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model 310 6502 w/80286 1MB ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Model PA 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Bus. Comp. Terminal 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Electron 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 > Master 65C02 128K ?? MICRO > 86 > Model A 6502 16K ?? MICRO 81 > Model B 6502 32K ?? MICRO 82 > Model B+ 6502 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Proton 6502 16K ?? MICRO > 81 > System 1 6502 1K ?? MICRO 79 > System 2 6502 32k ?? MICRO 80 > Automated Computer Systems---------------------------------------- > 4040 MC 4040 64K CP/M MICRO 78 > 8080 MC 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 8080 MCS 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 8080 MPU 8080 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 8080/Z80 8008 w/Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Z80 MCS Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > Z80 MCS Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Action Computer Enterprise, Inc.---------------------------------- > Discovery 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Discovery 1600 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Actrix Computers-------------------------------------------------- > DSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > SSDD Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Adra Systems------------------------------------------------------ > Model 1000 68020 2.5MB ?? MICRO 86 > Model 3000 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 > Advanced Digital Corporation-------------------------------------- > Super System II ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 > SuperStar ?? ?? TDOS MICRO 84 > Alcyon------------------------------------------------------------ > APS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 > APS/RMS 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 > APX 68000 256K UNIX MINI 84 > Alpha Info Systems------------------------------------------------ > Model 100 8085 1MB ?? ?? > 77 > Model 100T 8085 1MB ?? ?? 79 > Alpha MicroSystems------------------------------------------------ > AM-680C 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 > AM-680M 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 > AM-1000 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 82 > AM-1000E 68000 256K AMOS MICRO 83 > AM-1000X 68000 128K AMOS MICRO 84 > ALSPA Computer---------------------------------------------------- > ACI-1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > ACI-2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Zero Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Altos Computer Systems-------------------------------------------- > 3068 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 > 3068 EP 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 88 > 580-2 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO > 83 > 580-20 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO > 83 > 680-40 68000 ?? ?? MICRO > 85 > 8000-10 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 > 8000-12 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 > 8000-14 Z80 208K ?? MICRO 78 > Advanced Micro Devices-------------------------------------------- > Model 96/4116 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO > 80 > Ampere, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ > WS1A 68000 64K ?? MICRO 85 > WS1B 68000 256K ?? MICRO 85 > Amstrad----------------------------------------------------------- > CPC464 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 84 > CPC664 Z80A 64K AMSDOS MICRO 85 > CPC6128 Z80A 128K AMSDOS MICRO 85 > PCW8256 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 85 > PCW8512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 86 > PCW9512 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 87 > APF Electronics--------------------------------------------------- > IM1 6800 8K ?? MICRO 80 > Apollo Computer--------------------------------------------------- > 400/420 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Domain ?? ?? ?? ?? > 81 > Apple Computer, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Apple II 6502 16K ADOS 3.X MICRO 77 > Apple II+ 6502 48K ADOS 3.X MICRO 81 > Apple IIc 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 85 > Apple IIc+ 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 86 > Apple IIe 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 82 > Apple IIgs (ROM 01) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 86 > Apple IIgs (ROM 02) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 87 > Apple IIgs (ROM 03) 65C816 1.25MB GS/OS MICRO 88 > Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 > Apple III+ 6502 256K SOS MICRO 84 > Lisa 1 68000 1MB LOS MICRO 83 > Lisa 2 68000 512K LOS MICRO 84 > Macintosh 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO > 84 > Macintosh 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO > 84 > Macintosh Plus 68010 1MB MACOS MICRO > 86 > Macintosh Plus Enh. 68010 512K MACOS MICRO 86 > Macintosh XL 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 > Applied Digital Data Systems-------------------------------------- > Multivision 1 8085 64k CP/M MICRO > 80 > Multivision 2 8085 64K CP/M MICRO > 81 > Multivision 3 8085 192K CP/M MICRO > 81 > Applied Electronics----------------------------------------------- > Model 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Applied Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- > ASC 68000 68000 64K ?? MICRO 83 > ASC Portable 8088 w/8085 32K ?? PORT. 83 > AT&T-------------------------------------------------------------- > 3704-040 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO 86 > 3704-045 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 > 3704-065 ?? 2MB UNIX MICRO 86 > 3B2/300 WE32000 1MB UNIX MINI 86 > 3B2/400 WE32100 2MB UNIX MINI > 86 > 7300A1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300A2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300B1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300D1 ?? 512K UNIX MICRO > 86 > 7300E2 ?? 1MB UNIX MICRO > 86 > Atari------------------------------------------------------------- > 1040ST 68010 512K TOS MICRO 85 > 1200XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 82 > 130XE 6502C 128K ATRDOS MICRO > 85 > 400 6502 16K ATRDOS MICRO 79 > 520ST 68000 512K TOS MICRO 85 > 600XL 6502C 16K ATRDOS MICRO 83 > 65XE 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 85 > 800 6502 48K ATRDOS MICRO 79 > 800XL 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO 83 > Mega 2 68000 2MB ?? MICRO 87 > Mega 4 68000 4MB ?? MICRO 87 > XE Game System 6502C 64K ATRDOS MICRO > 87 > Auragen Systems Corporation--------------------------------------- > System 4000 68010 ?? ?? ?? 84 > Barreto Associates------------------------------------------------ > MicroMaster Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Barrington International------------------------------------------ > Elite Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Barrister Info Systems-------------------------------------------- > Law Office Manager Z80 ?? ?? ?? 75 > Basis------------------------------------------------------------- > Model 108 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > BBN Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ > C60 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 80 > C70 Z80 256K UNIX MINI 81 > Beehive Corp.----------------------------------------------------- > The Topper Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Bell Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- > Model 4 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 > Bell and Howell--------------------------------------------------- > Model 78400 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 78401 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 78402 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 3016D 6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 3032D 6502 32K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 3048D 6502 48K ?? MICRO 83 > Berkel Systems---------------------------------------------------- > Model 4410 6502 16K ?? MICRO 74 > Billings Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- > System 500 II Z80 56K TDOS MICRO > 82 > System 6000B Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > System 6000 II Z80 64K TDOS MICRO > 82 > System 6000 X Z80 64K TDOS MICRO > 82 > System 6000 XII Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > BC-12FD Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 79 > BlackHawk Computers----------------------------------------------- > BlackHawk 3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 > BlackHawk 4 8085 64K ?? MICRO 79 > BMC, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > BMC-800 Model 20C Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > BMC-800 Model 20G Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Bondwell Computers------------------------------------------------ > BW2 Z80C 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > BW12 Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > BW14 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 > BW16 Z80A 128K CP/M MICRO 85 > BOS Systems------------------------------------------------------- > BOS-M Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 81 > Cyte 86 Z80 w/80186 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > BTI Computer Systems---------------------------------------------- > BTI 4800 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? ?? 84 > BTI 5000 Mark II Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 > BTI 5000/ES Z80 w/80186 64K ?? ?? 83 > BTI 6000 Z80 W/8088 128K ?? ?? 84 > BTI 8000 BTI8000 24MB ?? ?? > 85 > Burroughs Corp.--------------------------------------------------- > B1800 Z80 w/80186 64K ?? MICRO 83 > B1910 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 83 > B1913 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO > 83 > OW400 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > CADO Systems------------------------------------------------------ > CAT III 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > System 20/20 8085 48K ?? MICRO 78 > System 20/28 8085 96K ?? MICRO 83 > CCG--------------------------------------------------------------- > Micro 11 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > Ultra 11/730 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra 11/750 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra PDP 11/44 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra PDP 11/73 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > Ultra PDP 11/23 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 83 > California Computer Systems--------------------------------------- > Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Model 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 200 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 400 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 410 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > System 420 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Callan Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > CD 100 ?? ?? UNIX MINI 81 > CD 100M 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 > UniStar 100 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > UniStar 200 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > UniStar 300 NS16032 512K UNIX ?? 84 > Canaan Computer Corp.--------------------------------------------- > 5410Z ?? ?? ?? ?? 85 > 5412-P1 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > 5412-P2 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Canon, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > TX-10/15 6809 16K ?? MICRO 80 > Casio, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > FX-9000 6809 4K ?? MICRO 83 > Computer Consoles, Inc.------------------------------------------- > Power 5/20 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Control Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ > Cyber 18 6809 16K ?? MICRO 76 > Model 110 6809 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Computer Enhancement Corp.---------------------------------------- > CE Micro 1 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Centurion Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ > Model 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 5200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Model 5300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Model 6100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 6200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 6300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 6400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 6500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Model 7100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 9200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Micro Plus ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Century Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- > System 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > System 400 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > System 700 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > System 900 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > > Vanguard 8000 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Vanguard 8200 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Vanguard 8500 Z80 w/8085 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > X1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > X2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > Challenge Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- > CS1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Charles River Data Systems---------------------------------------- > Universe 32/115T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 > Universe 32/137T 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 > Universe 32/35 68020 1MB ?? ?? 85 > Universe 65/115T 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 > Universe 68/05 68000 256K ?? ?? 82 > Universe 68/137T 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > Universe 68/67 68000 512K ?? ?? > 83 > Universe 68/35 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > Universe 2402 68000 ?? ?? ?? 85 > Universe 2403 68000 512K ?? ?? > 84 > Charter Information Corp.----------------------------------------- > System 4 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 > CIE Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > 680/20 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 > 680/30-10 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 > 680/35 68000 512K ?? ?? > 83 > 680/40 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > 680/50 68020 1MB ?? ?? 87 > 680/100 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > 680/150 68020 8MB ?? ?? 87 > 680/200 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > CMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- > SuperSystem 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > SuperSystem 2 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Codex Corporation------------------------------------------------- > Model 268/21 68000 ?? ?? MICRO 83 > Model 268/24 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 > Model 268/44 6809 192K ?? MICRO 82 > Colby Computer---------------------------------------------------- > MacColby 128 68000 128K MACOS MICRO 84 > MacColby 512 68000 512K MACOS MICRO 84 > Coleco Industries, Inc.------------------------------------------- > ADAM Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > Colonial Data Services-------------------------------------------- > SB80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Columbia Data Products-------------------------------------------- > Commander 500 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 79 > Commander 964 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Commander F64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO > 79 > Commander FX Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 79 > Commander M64 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO > 79 > Comark Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Disktor M1 Z80 w/6502 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Disktor M3 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Disktor Q ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > MB 85/285 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 79 > Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- > 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 > 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 > 16 6510 16K ?? MICRO 84 > 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 > 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 > Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 > CBM 3008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 3016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 3032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 4004 6502 4K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 4008 6502 8K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 4016 6502 16K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 4032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 8008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 > CBM 8096 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM 8296 6502 ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO > ?? > CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM SP9000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > Executive 64 6510 64K CBMOS PORT. 83 > PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > Plus 4 6510 64K ?? MICRO 84 > SuperPET 6502 w/6809 96K ?? MICRO 81 > VIC-20 6502 5K ?? MICRO 81 > Compal Computer Systems------------------------------------------- > 8200+ Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Electric Briefcase Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > EZ Type Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > CompTech---------------------------------------------------------- > EVE II 6502 w/Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 > CompuCorp--------------------------------------------------------- > Model 745 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 799 Z80 192K CP/M MICRO 83 > Compupro Systems-------------------------------------------------- > MP-10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO > 83 > System 816/10 Z80 w/8088 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 > System 816/A 8085 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 816/B 8085 w/8088 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 816/C 8085 w/8088 512K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 816/E 68000 256K CP/M MICRO 84 > System 816/G ?? 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 > System 816/GG Z80 w/68000 512K CP/M MICRO > 84 > System 816/Z Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 84 > The Computerist--------------------------------------------------- > Focus 6809 30K FLEX MICRO 82 > Covergent Technologies-------------------------------------------- > MiniFrame 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 > MiniFrame Plus 68010 512K ?? MICRO 86 > MightyFrame 68020 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > Cortex Systems---------------------------------------------------- > Microdent 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Microdent 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Cromemco, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- > C10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > CS-1 Z80 w/68000 256K CROMIX MICRO 82 > CS100 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 85 > CS110 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MICRO 86 > CS115 68020 2MB UNIX MICRO 87 > CS120 68020 4MB ?? MICRO 86 > CS200 68010 1MB ?? MINI 86 > CS220 68020 2MB ?? MINI 86 > CS300 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 > CS400 Z80 w/68010 2MB ?? MINI 86 > CS420 68020 4MB ?? MINI 86 > D System 1 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 82 > D System 100 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 > D System 3 Z80 w/68000 512K ?? MICRO 83 > D System 300 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 > Z System 0 Z80 1MB ?? MICRO 82 > Z System 1 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Z System 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Z System 3 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > CYB Systems------------------------------------------------------- > MultiBox I 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 > MultiBox II 68000 768K UNIX ?? 82 > Cyberchron-------------------------------------------------------- > C21 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 > C41 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 > C45 68000 4MB ?? ?? 83 > CDS-201 68000 64K ?? ?? 79 > CDS-231 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 > Data General Corp------------------------------------------------- > CB/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CEO ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > CS/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > CS/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > CS/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > CS/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > CS/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > CS/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > CS/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Eclipse C/150 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Eclipse C/350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Eclipse MV/4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Eclipse S/120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Eclipse S/130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Eclipse S/140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Eclipse S/250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Eclipse S/280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Enterprise 1000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Enterprise 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > MPT/100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > MPT/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Nova 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Nova 4 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datamac Computer Systems------------------------------------------ > Series 1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Datapoint Corp.--------------------------------------------------- > Model 1560 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Model 8600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 8800 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 81 > Series 1800 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Series 4000 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Series 6600 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 > Datavue Corp.----------------------------------------------------- > 80/100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 80/200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 80/300 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 80/400 Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > DEC--------------------------------------------------------------- > Correspondent ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 150 ?? ?? ?? ?? > 83 > Datasystem 208 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Datasystem 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 315 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 320 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 336 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 356 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Datasystem 512 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > DECMate II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Micro/PDP-11 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > MicroVAX I ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > PDP-11/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > PDP-11/24 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > PDP-11/34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > PDP-11/44 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > PDP-11/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 75 > Professional 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Professional 325 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Professional 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Professional 380 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Rainbow 100 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Rainbow 100+ Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Robin ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > VAX-11/730 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > VAX-11/750 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Deltadata Systems Corp.------------------------------------------- > D8000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Micro Manager Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Delta Products Inc.----------------------------------------------- > Delta One Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Delta Two Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Delta Four Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 83 > DP/Net ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > DP/125 ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 83 > Digicomp Research------------------------------------------------- > System 100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Digidyne---------------------------------------------------------- > 5832 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 > 5864 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 > Series 200 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Digital Microsystems---------------------------------------------- > DMS-3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > DMS-4 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 80 > DMS-15 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > DMS-86 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > DMS-1280 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > DMS-5080 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > DMS-5086 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Digital Technology------------------------------------------------ > Model 580 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Digitex----------------------------------------------------------- > Model 7100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 7200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 7300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 7500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8100 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8200 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8300 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 8500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Dimension Computer Corp.------------------------------------------ > 1000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > 1020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > 2010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 82 > 3010 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 > 3020 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 83 > Direct, Inc.------------------------------------------------------ > Model 1000 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 1025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model 1031 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Display Data Corp.------------------------------------------------ > Insight Z80 64K ?? ?? 74 > DMC Systems------------------------------------------------------- > Commfile Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 78 > Docutel----------------------------------------------------------- > BCS 2025 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > BCS 2030 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > DC-M18 68000 100K MS-DOS MICRO 84 > M10 8085 8K ?? PORT. 84 > M20 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > P6060 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 77 > S6000 Z8000 64K ?? MICRO 81 > DTC--------------------------------------------------------------- > 710 8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > A22 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 83 > B23 8085 256K UNIX MICRO 82 > Micro 210A 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Micro 210B 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Data Technology Industries---------------------------------------- > Associate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 79 > Dual Systems Control Corp.---------------------------------------- > 83/20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 83/80 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 83/500 68000 2MB UNIX ?? 84 > Durango Systems Inc.---------------------------------------------- > 800 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > 800XR 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > 900 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > 910 8085 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Dynabyte Business Computers--------------------------------------- > 6600 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > 6900 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Monarch 6000 Z80 w/8086 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Eagle Computer Inc.----------------------------------------------- > Eagle IIE Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Eagle III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Eagle IV Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > ECS Microsystems-------------------------------------------------- > ECS 4500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > ECS 4650 Z80 80K CP/M MICRO 82 > EEC Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > Micropower/23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Micropower/W ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Elan Computers---------------------------------------------------- > Enterprise 64 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Enterprise 128 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Epic Computers---------------------------------------------------- > Episode 2296 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Epson, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > Geneva PX-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > HX-20 Z80 16K ?? PORT. 83 > QX-10 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 > QX-16 Z80 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Esprit Computer Products------------------------------------------ > Model S1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model S1016 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model S1500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Model S1516 Z80 w/80186 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model S1800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Model 900 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 > ETR, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > Star System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Eve Computers----------------------------------------------------- > Eve II PC 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 84 > Eve Portable 6502 w/Z80 64K ADOS 3.X PORT. 84 > Evolution Computer Systems---------------------------------------- > Model 140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 160 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 240 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 260 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 280 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Exo Systems------------------------------------------------------- > System 5 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 8 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 58 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Exxon Office Systems---------------------------------------------- > 510 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > 520 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > 530 Info. Processor Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 8400 Series Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Facit, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > Model 6500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > FI Electronics---------------------------------------------------- > Series 7240 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 81 > Financial Business Computers-------------------------------------- > FBC Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Findex------------------------------------------------------------ > Model 0X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 0X2 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 > Model 9X1 Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 83 > Formation, Inc.--------------------------------------------------- > F/4000-101 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 > F/4000-201 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 > F/4000-301 AMD2900 1MB ?? ?? 81 > Fortune Systems Corp.--------------------------------------------- > 32:16 PS-10 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 32:16 PS-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 32:16 68000 128K UNIX ?? 81 > 32:16 XP-20 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > 32:16 XP-30 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > Fortune Formula 68020 ?? UNIX ?? 86 > SX45 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 > SX45T 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 > SX70 68000 1MB ?? ?? 85 > XP45 68000 512K ?? ?? 85 > Forward Technology------------------------------------------------ > Grpahics Workstation 68000 256K UNIX ?? 82 > Four-Phase Systems------------------------------------------------ > IV/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > IV/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > IV/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 > IV/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/65 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/90 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > IV/95 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Franklin Computer Corp.------------------------------------------- > Ace 10 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 > Ace 1100 6502 ?? ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 > Ace 1000 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 82 > Ace 1200 6502 w/Z80 128K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 > Ace 500 6502 64K ADOS 3.X MICRO 83 > Fujitsu, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- > Micro 16S Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Garrett Computing Systems----------------------------------------- > GSC/440 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > GEAC Computers---------------------------------------------------- > System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > General Automation------------------------------------------------ > Model 930 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 940 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Model 950 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Zebra 700 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 84 > Zebra 750 68000 128K XENIX MICRO 84 > Zebra 1000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 1500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 2000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 2500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 3000 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 3500 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 82 > Zebra 5500 68000 1MB XENIX MICRO 82 > General Robotics-------------------------------------------------- > BA500 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > BA800L ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 > Scorpio 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 > Super Gemini 68000 64K ?? ?? 81 > Super Pegasus 68000 64K ?? ?? 77 > Super Tristar 68000 64K ?? ?? 83 > Hagen Systems----------------------------------------------------- > Mark Ten ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Harris Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > H60 68000 768K ?? ?? 84 > H600 68000 1.5MB ?? ?? 83 > H700 68000 384K ?? ?? 82 > Model 1640 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 1650 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Heurikon Corp.---------------------------------------------------- > HK68 68000 128K UNIX ?? 84 > Minibox 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > MLZ Z80 16K ?? ?? 83 > Modular Box 68000 512K UNIX ?? 84 > Hon Computing Systems--------------------------------------------- > Hon IV ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Hon V ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Honeywell Bull, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > DPS 6/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > DPS 6/45 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Level 6-23 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Level 6-33 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > Level 6-37 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Level 6-43 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Level 6-47 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Level 6-53 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Level 6-57 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > System XPS-100-10 68010 512K ?? ?? 86 > System XPS-100-20 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 > System XPS-100-40 68020 4MB ?? ?? 86 > HP---------------------------------------------------------------- > HP 1000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > HP 300 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > HP 3000 Series ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > HP 85A ?? 16K ?? MICRO 82 > HP 85B ?? ?? ?? MICRO 86 > HP 86B Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > HP 87XM ?? 128K ?? MICRO 82 > HP 9825B ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > HP 9845B ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > HP 9915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Series 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Series 200 68000 512K CP/M MICRO 82 > Integrated Business Computers------------------------------------- > C-1064R Z80B 64K ?? ?? 84 > Cadet Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Ensign 68010 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Ensign 386:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 > Ensign 682:100 68020 ?? ?? ?? 87 > Ensign Oasis 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Middi-Cadet Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 > Middi-Cadet High Perf. Z80H 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Multi-Star I Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Multi-Star II Z80B 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Super Cadet Z80H 320K ?? MICRO 84 > System 68 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > IBM--------------------------------------------------------------- > 6/430 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > 5110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > 5120 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 8130 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > 8140 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > System 34 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > System 36 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > System 38 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > ICL, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > DRS20 8085 w/8088 150K ?? MICRO 82 > Immediate Business Systems---------------------------------------- > FS 2000 8085 w/8088 32K ?? ?? 83 > IMPC-------------------------------------------------------------- > Access Matrix Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Impelco----------------------------------------------------------- > IMP 800C Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > IMP 816C Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 84 > IMS International------------------------------------------------- > 5000IS Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 82 > 5000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > 8000S Z80 w/8088 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > 8000SX Z80 w/80186 128K TDOS MICRO 81 > Information Devices----------------------------------------------- > Micro Plus Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Infotecs, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- > Control Center 2 Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Innotronics------------------------------------------------------- > Model 6100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Intecolor Corporation--------------------------------------------- > 3651 8080 32K ?? MICRO 80 > 8052 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 > 8352 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 > Intelligent Systems----------------------------------------------- > Intecolor 8050 8080 8K ?? MICRO 77 > Intecolor 8064 8080 8K ?? MICRO 79 > Intelligent Graphics 8080 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Interphase Corp.-------------------------------------------------- > Baseboard SBC 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Intersil Systems, Inc.-------------------------------------------- > 1SB-80/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 1SB-809/85 Z80 w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Intertec Data Systems--------------------------------------------- > Compustar VPU 10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Compustar VPU 20 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Compustar VPU 30 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Compustar VPU 40 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Headstart VPU 128 Z80 w/8086 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Headstart VPU 512 Z80 w/8086 512K CP/M MICRO 84 > Headstart VPU 1000 Z80 w/8086 1MB CP/M MICRO 84 > Super Brain II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Ithaca Intersystems----------------------------------------------- > Encore 580 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Encore 880 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Encore 58000 68000 256K XENIX MICRO 83 > Ithaca 525 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Jacquard, Inc.---------------------------------------------------- > J100 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 75 > J200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > J300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > J425 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 77 > J500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 > J6000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 87 > Jade Computer Products-------------------------------------------- > System III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Jonos International----------------------------------------------- > C2000 Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2100 Z80A w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2150 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2550 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Escort C2100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Escort C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Kaypro Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Kaypro 2x300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 > Kaypro 4 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 > Kaypro 10 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 83 > Kaypro II Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 82 > Kaypro II Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 > Kaypro IV Plus 88 Z80 w/8088 256K CP/M PORT. 84 > Robie 300 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 > Kontron Electronics----------------------------------------------- > PSI 80 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 > Kowin Computer Corp.---------------------------------------------- > Kowin II 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 > Kowin II Plus 68000 3MB ?? ?? 87 > Kowin III 68020 3MB ?? ?? 87 > Lanier Business Products------------------------------------------ > Computereze Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Shared System II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > LMC--------------------------------------------------------------- > System I NS16032 512K ?? ?? 84 > System II NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 > System III NS16032 1MB ?? ?? 84 > LNW Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- > LNW 80-I Z80 48K CP/M MICRO 81 > LNW 80-II Z80 96K CP/M MICRO 81 > Lobo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------------ > Max-80 Z80B 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Logical Business Machines----------------------------------------- > Adam ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > David ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Goliath ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Tina ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > MAI--------------------------------------------------------------- > Basic Four Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > System 110 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > System 310 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 510 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > System 710 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System S/10 Z80 128K ?? ?? 82 > System S/80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Martec International---------------------------------------------- > IBEX 2000 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 77 > IBEX 7000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 > Matrox Electronic Systems----------------------------------------- > MACS-10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Multitech Electronics, Inc.--------------------------------------- > MIC-501 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MIC-504 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Memotech Corp.---------------------------------------------------- > MTX 512 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Microcomputer Technology------------------------------------------ > MOD III Z80 16K CP/M MICRO 80 > Personal Executive Z80 1MB CP/M MICRO 82 > Microcraft Corp.-------------------------------------------------- > Dimension 68000 512K ?? ?? 84 > Microdata Corp.--------------------------------------------------- > 7608 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > 7905 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > 7907 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > 7915 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > 7917 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Reality 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Reality 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Reality 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Reality 7000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Reality 8000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Sovereign 7920 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Sovereign 7930 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Sovereign 7940 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Micro-Expander, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Expander Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Micromation, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > M/System Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Mariner 9000 Z80 64K TDOS MICRO 81 > Microsystems International---------------------------------------- > Multinet Z80 w/8086 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Milwaukee Computers----------------------------------------------- > MC-100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Mini-Computer Systems--------------------------------------------- > Micos 100 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Micos 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 73 > Micos 300 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Mohawk Data Sciences Corp.---------------------------------------- > Model 21/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 21/20 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Model 21/40 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Model 21/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Model 21/60 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 21/70 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Momentum Computer Systems----------------------------------------- > Model 32 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 > Monroe Systems---------------------------------------------------- > EC 8800 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > Microdecision 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > OC 8810 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > OC 8820 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 81 > OC 8828 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 81 > Morrow Designs, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Decision 1 D120 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Decision 1 D200 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Decision 1 D210 Z80 256K CP/M MICRO 82 > Decision 1 D220 Z80 512K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 1 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 2 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 3 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 3P Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 5 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Microdecision MD 11 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 16 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Microdecision MD 34 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Tricep 68000 256K UNIX MICRO 84 > Mostek Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Matrix-80 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Motorola---------------------------------------------------------- > Exormacs 68000 512K UNIX MICRO 83 > Exorset 110 6809 56K ?? MICRO 83 > M-6809 6809 64K ?? MICRO 78 > VME/10 68000 384K UNIX MICRO 83 > MSI Data---------------------------------------------------------- > MSI/88S 68000 56K ?? MICRO 82 > Musys Corp.------------------------------------------------------- > NetWork 8816 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 83 > NetWork 8820 Z80 128K TDOS MICRO 84 > Nabu Manufacturing------------------------------------------------ > Personal Computer Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > NBI, Inc.--------------------------------------------------------- > System 1 68000 ?? UNIX ?? 84 > Technical Workstation 68000 1MB UNIX ?? 84 > NCR Corp.--------------------------------------------------------- > Decision Mate V Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 > I-9010 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > I-9020 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > I-9040 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > PC-8 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > PC-8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 82 > NEC--------------------------------------------------------------- > PC6000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 > PC6001A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 86 > PC8201A Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 > PC8401A Z80 64K ?? MICRO 85 > PC8800 Z80 w/80086 64K ?? MICRO 83 > PC8801A Z80 w/8086 64K ?? MICRO 86 > Astra 200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Astra 205 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Astra 210 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Astra 230 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Astra 250 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Astra 270 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Astra 330 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Astra 350 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Astra 370 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Nelma Data Corp.-------------------------------------------------- > Persona Z80 ?? ?? MICRO 82 > Persona II Z80 w/8088 192K ?? MICRO 83 > New England Digital----------------------------------------------- > A-40 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 77 > A-60 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 78 > Nixdorf Computer Corp.-------------------------------------------- > Model 80 ?? ?? ?? ?? 70 > Model 600 ?? ?? ?? ?? 76 > Model 8810 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Model 8845 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 8870/M15 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 8870/1 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > Model 8870/3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Model 8890/10 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 8890/30 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > Model 8890/50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 84 > NNC Electronics--------------------------------------------------- > System 80 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > System 80W Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > NorthStar Computers----------------------------------------------- > Advantage 8/16 Z80 w/8088 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Advantage Z80 w/80186 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Horizon 8/16 Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Horizon Z80 w/8088 128K CP/M MICRO 77 > Northern Telecom Terminal Sys.------------------------------------ > 405 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 445 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 503 8085 256K ?? MICRO 81 > M4120 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > M4121 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > M4122 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 86 > Ohio Scientific--------------------------------------------------- > MasterKey 220 6502 48K OS-65 MICRO 83 > MasterKey 230 6502 52K OS-65 MICRO 82 > MasterKey 250 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 330 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > MasterKey 350 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 2301 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > OSI-710 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > OSI-720 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > WorkSystem 200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 > WorkSystem 300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 > Olympia USA, Inc.------------------------------------------------- > OPC 6502 52K ?? MICRO 82 > Omni-Source------------------------------------------------------- > OS-26 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-48 Z80B 192K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-526 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-548 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-826 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > OS-848 Z80B 320K ?? MICRO 84 > Ontel Corp.------------------------------------------------------- > 1505 Z80 w/6502 16K ?? MICRO 83 > 1507 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Amigo Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Onyx Systems Inc.------------------------------------------------- > 6810 68000 1MB ?? MICRO 84 > C8001 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 79 > C8002 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > C8002A ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Sundance 16 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > Sundance ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Sundance II ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > System 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > System 4000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 80 > Osborne Computer-------------------------------------------------- > Osborne 1 Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 81 > Osborne Executive Z80 128K CP/M PORT. 83 > Vixen Z80 64K CP/M PORT. 84 > OSM Computer Corp.------------------------------------------------ > Zeus 2 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Zeus 2-16 Z80 w/8088 320K ?? MICRO 83 > Zeus 3 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > Zeus 3X ?? ?? ?? MICRO 85 > Zeus 4 Z80 w/8088 64K ?? MICRO 83 > Zeus 16 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > Otrona Corp.------------------------------------------------------ > Attache Z80A 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Panasonic--------------------------------------------------------- > Link HHC 6502 4K ?? MICRO 83 > RL-H 6502 8K ?? MICRO 81 > PCE Systems------------------------------------------------------- > Voyager I ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 > Voyager II ?? ?? ?? MICRO 78 > Pegasus Data Systems---------------------------------------------- > Peanut Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Pegasus Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Personal Microcomputers, Inc.------------------------------------- > PMC Micromate Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > PMC 80 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 80 > PMC 81 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 81 > PMC 101 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 > Pertec Computer Corp---------------------------------------------- > 2000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 78 > 3000 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > 3200 ?? ?? ?? ?? 83 > XL50 ?? ?? ?? ?? 77 > Phoenix Digital Corp.--------------------------------------------- > CPW 09 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 > Optoview 100 6809 128K OS-9 MICRO 80 > Plessy Peripheral Systems----------------------------------------- > System-24 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 > System-44 ?? ?? ?? MINI 83 > Plexus Computers, Inc.-------------------------------------------- > P/25 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 > P/35 68000 512K UNIX ?? 82 > Point Four Data--------------------------------------------------- > Mark 3 ?? ?? ?? ?? 81 > Mark 5 ?? ?? ?? ?? 79 > Mark 8 ?? ?? ?? ?? 82 > Polo Microsystems, Inc.------------------------------------------- > Polo System I Z80 w/80188 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Polymorphic Systems----------------------------------------------- > Model 813 Z80 256K ?? MICRO 77 > Model 8810 Z80 w/80186 256K ?? MICRO 83 > Pragmatic Design-------------------------------------------------- > Inspector 200 Z80 w/80186 128K ?? MICRO 81 > Product Associates------------------------------------------------ > Z Disk I Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Z Disk II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Z Disk III Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Q1 Corporation---------------------------------------------------- > Microlite II Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Quasar Data Products---------------------------------------------- > QDP-100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > QDP-200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > QDP-300 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Quasar Company---------------------------------------------------- > HHC 6502 2K ?? ?? 83 > Quasitronics------------------------------------------------------ > Q-5048 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 82 > Quay-------------------------------------------------------------- > 90 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 77 > 500 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > 900 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 910M ?? ?? CP/M MICRO 82 > Rabbit Computer, Inc.--------------------------------------------- > Wrap Bit II Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > Rair Microcomputer Corp.------------------------------------------ > Black Box 3/30 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Black Box 3/50 8085 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Business Computer 8085 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Sage Computer Technology------------------------------------------ > Sage II 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 > Sage IV 68000 256K ?? ?? 83 > Sanyo Business Systems Corp.-------------------------------------- > MBC-1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > MBC-1100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1150 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1160 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1250 Z80 (x2) 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-2000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-3000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-4050 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 85 > PHC-20 8085 4K ?? ?? 83 > Scenic Computer Systems------------------------------------------- > Scenic 8085 70K ?? MICRO 81 > Scientific Data Systems------------------------------------------- > 420 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 > Seattle Computer Products----------------------------------------- > Gazelle I 8086 128K CP/M MICRO 82 > Seequa Computer--------------------------------------------------- > Chameleon Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 > PC Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 84 > XT Z80 w/8088 256K ?? MICRO 84 > Sharp Electronics------------------------------------------------- > PC-1211 6809 2K ?? ?? 81 > PC-1250A 6809 ?? ?? ?? 84 > PC-1260 6809 4K ?? ?? 84 > PC-1261 6809 10K ?? ?? 84 > PC-1350 6809 5K ?? ?? 84 > PC-1500A 6809 8K ?? ?? 83 > System 100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > System 200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Sierra Computer Systems------------------------------------------- > CX Workstation 68020 2MB ?? ?? 86 > Sierra National--------------------------------------------------- > 3000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > 4000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 80 > Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- > ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 > SKS Computers----------------------------------------------------- > SKS 1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Solo Systems------------------------------------------------------ > 1116 Solostation 68000 1MB ?? ?? 84 > Sony Video Communications----------------------------------------- > SMC-70 Z80 w/8086 256K ?? MICRO 82 > Sord Computers, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > IS-11 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 > M 23 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68 Z80 w/68000 256K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68MX 68000 512K ?? MICRO 87 > Southern Computer Systems----------------------------------------- > Series 8000 8088 w/8085 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Sperry Corporation------------------------------------------------ > BC/7-600 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 83 > Mapper 5 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Star Technologies, Inc.------------------------------------------- > M1 68000 512K ?? ?? 82 > Ministar 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 81 > Ministar 1200 68000 128K ?? ?? 83 > Nanostar 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > Stride Micro------------------------------------------------------ > 420 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 > 440 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 > 460 68000 256K ?? ?? 84 > Sumicom, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- > 830 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 83 > Systems Group----------------------------------------------------- > 2900 Z80 128K ?? ?? 81 > ExpressLine 68000 768K ?? ?? 83 > Syzygy------------------------------------------------------------ > Syzygy Computer System Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Tandy Corporation------------------------------------------------- > 4D Micro Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 > 102 80C85 32K ?? PORT. 86 > 200 80C85 24K ?? PORT. 85 > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > Color Computer 2 6809E 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Color Computer 3 6809E 128K ?? MICRO 86 > PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 > PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 > PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 > TRS-80 Model 4P Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > TRS-80 Model 12 Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 16B 68000 w/Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 100 Z80 24K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 > TRS-80 Model II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 > TRS-80 Model III Z80 64K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-1 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-2 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 82 > Tano Corporation-------------------------------------------------- > AVT-2 6502 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Tarbell Electronics----------------------------------------------- > Empire Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > Rebel Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Televideo Systems, Inc.------------------------------------------- > TPC I Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 > TS 800 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 86 > TS 802 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 82 > TS 803 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 > TS 804 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 83 > TS 806 Z80 64K CP/M ?? 81 > TS 816 Z80 128K CP/M ?? 82 > 3R Computer Products---------------------------------------------- > Avatar TC10 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Avatar TC3278 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Texas Instruments------------------------------------------------- > 99/2 TMS9900 4K ?? MICRO 83 > 99/4A TMS9900 16K ?? MICRO 83 > 200 TMS9900 64K ?? ?? 83 > 300 TMS9900 128K ?? ?? 83 > 990 TMS9900 2MB ?? ?? 81 > CC 40 TMS9900 6K ?? ?? 83 > Timex Computer---------------------------------------------------- > TS 1000 Z80 1K ?? MICRO 83 > TS 2000 Z80 16K ?? MICRO 83 > Torch Computers--------------------------------------------------- > Model CF110 Z80 w/6502 96K ?? MICRO 82 > Toshiba, Inc.----------------------------------------------------- > EW100 Z80 w/6502 64K ?? MICRO 81 > T100 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > T200 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > T250 8085 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Vector Graphic, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Vector 4 Z80 w/8088 128K ?? MICRO 83 > Vector 5005E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Vector 5010E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Vector 5032E Z80 128K ?? MICRO 82 > Vector SX-2000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Vector SX-3000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Vector SX-5000 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 84 > Video Technology Computers, Inc.---------------------------------- > Laser 50 Z80 2K ?? PORT. 84 > Laser 128 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 128EX 65C02 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 200 6502 4K ?? ?? 83 > Laser 3000 6502 64K ?? ?? 83 > Wicat Systems, Inc.----------------------------------------------- > System 150 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 155 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 160 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 200 68000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 300 68000 2MB ?? ?? 83 > System 2200 68000 1MB ?? ?? 83 > Xerox Corporation------------------------------------------------- > System 744-I Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > System 744-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 16/8 Z80 w/8086 192K ?? MICRO 83 > 820-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 > Zeda Computers---------------------------------------------------- > 520 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 81 > 580A Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 79 > Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 > Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 > Zilog, Inc.------------------------------------------------------- > System 8000/11 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 8000/12 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 > System 8000/21 Z8000 512K ?? ?? 83 > System 8000/22 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 > System 8000/32 Z8001 512K ?? ?? 84 > ================================================================== > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 1 20:02:47 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E2C3@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501180247.007609b0@agora.rdrop.com> At 03:58 PM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >Great list! Some additions & changes: ...and yet some more... >- Add: MITS Altair 680, 68000, 1976 Ummm... no. 6800 mpu (not 68000) >- Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim >Shoppa has one) The NorthStar "Advantage" (I have one too) >- Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS Interesting... Many I worked with ran OASIS. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 1 20:29:14 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E2C3@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info. All but the following have been added. > - Add: Apple/Tempest TPI 863T milspec Macintosh, 68000, 1986 Which company actually manufactured it? > - Add: Apple/Honeywell "Black Apple" custom manufactured Apple II+ Same as the Bell&Howell black apple or different? > - Change: Atari Mega machines were the Mega ST (with 1, 2 or 4MB, 1987) > and the Mega STE (improved, 1991). I've never heard of a "Mega 1" or > "Mega 2" This info came from a 1989 Atari price list - as you can imagine I'm now slightly confused... > - Add: Commodore Amiga 2000/3000/4000 (Too new?) Yeah - I pretty much stick with the 10 years or older guideline. > - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General portable Probably going to need a little more data... > - Add: Intecolor CompuColor II, 8080A, ~1979 Are you sure that this is not actually one of the listed model numbers? > - Change: "Kaypro Corp" should be Non-Linear Systems I think you're right (as that's what my Kaypros say) but I've seen it also listed as Kaypro Corp... was there a name change? > - Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim > Shoppa has one) And I'm sure he'll be popping up sooner or later... Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 20:33:06 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E3A0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | >- Add: MITS Altair 680, 68000, 1976 | Ummm... no. 6800 mpu (not 68000) Typo... thanks | >- Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim | >Shoppa has one) | The NorthStar "Advantage" (I have one too) Yeah, come to think of it, the one Tim has that I was thinking of was actually a similar IMSAI with built-in monitor. The name was something like "DPC-1" | >- Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS | Interesting... Many I worked with ran OASIS. B^} I guess it would have been clearer to say "NorthStar Horizons shipped with NSDOS". I'm sure most of them "primarily ran" CP/M after the owners realized how obscure and limiting NSDOS was ("cd" to Copy Disk? Gee, a DOS user would never type that by accident!) Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 1 21:16:08 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B9A1EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | > - Add: Apple/Tempest TPI 863T milspec Macintosh, 68000, 1986 | Which company actually manufactured it? Apple shipped the internal components to Tempest, who put it in a milspec housing. | > - Add: Apple/Honeywell "Black Apple" custom manufactured Apple II+ | Same as the Bell&Howell black apple or different? Duh! Of course I meant Bell & Howell. | > - Change: Atari Mega machines were the Mega ST (with 1, 2 or 4MB, 1987) | > and the Mega STE (improved, 1991). I've never heard of a "Mega 1" or | > "Mega 2" | This info came from a 1989 Atari price list - as you can imagine I'm | now slightly confused... Did a quick bit of research - the numbers indicate amount of RAM only. The two Megas are the Mega ST and Mega STe (lower case e). | > - Add: Commodore Amiga 2000/3000/4000 (Too new?) | Yeah - I pretty much stick with the 10 years or older guideline. The A2000 was introduced in March 1987 along with the A500, so I guess they're under the wire :) | > - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General portable | Probably going to need a little more data... The portable was called the Data General 1. The original MicroNOVA was the MN601 (by PDP-8 designer Edson DeCastro, who came to Data General from DEC). Trivia: Did you know that AViiON is NOVA spelled backwards with an "ii" (signifying 2) in the middle, as in NOVA II ? | > - Add: Intecolor CompuColor II, 8080A, ~1979 | Are you sure that this is not actually one of the listed model | numbers? The CompuColor II was only referred to as such in any ads I ever saw. It was a 13" color display system with a hard-sectored 5 1/4" drive to the right of the monitor, and a keyboard with multicolored keys. Trivia: CompuColor CP/M had no FORMAT, you had to buy formatted diskettes from Intecolor. | > - Change: "Kaypro Corp" should be Non-Linear Systems | I think you're right (as that's what my Kaypros say) but I've seen it also | listed as Kaypro Corp... was there a name change? Kaypro was founded in 1952 as Non-Linear Systems, the first manufacturer of digital voltmeters. Somewhere along the line they changed to Kaypro Corporation, but I don't think they did so until their Chapter 11 in ~1990. Certainly at the time of the Kaypro II, they were still known as Non-Linear Systems. Trivia: Arthur C. Clarke wrote 2010 on a Kaypro II. By the way, now that I think about it, the KIM-1 was by MOS Technologies, which hadn't yet changed their name to Commodore. I don't know how you want to handle that. | > - Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the model, Tim | > Shoppa has one) | And I'm sure he'll be popping up sooner or later... North Star Advantage, as Bill kindly pointed out. There was also a similar IMSAI with built-in monitor, I have a catalog at home with the name. Kai From BigLouS at aol.com Thu May 1 21:40:39 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: Atari prob, etc. Message-ID: <970501223929_52924666@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-04-30 03:16:50 EDT,idavis@comland.com (Isaac Davis) writes: > there is also a product called ape which is at http://www.nacs.net/~classics which allows you to connect your atari to a pc. They also have schematics . I use ape with my setup and it has worked just fine. I download Atari software to my PC and Ape does the rest. The cable is fairly easy to build if you have some soldering experience. Lou From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 1 23:27:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B9A1EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 1, 97 07:16:08 pm Message-ID: <9705020327.AA11147@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970501/21e89a10/attachment-0001.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Thu May 1 22:47:14 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970501234712.005d1eb0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Tim Shoppa happened to blather: >Well, when it comes down to it, vanilla CP/M never had >FORMAT. Didn't matter a whole lot on vanilla systems, as >8" floppies always come preformatted. Yes, but what about *chocolate* CP/M? Huh? How about that, Mr. Smart-Guy??? Everybody knows that chocolate is better than vanilla!!! ;^> I'm just joking... still working & it's been a long night! Anyone here have any experience with Unix NewsServer Daemons? That be me problem tonite, matey! See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From scott at saskatoon.com Fri May 2 00:17:17 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <199705020514.XAA21484@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > By the way, now that I think about it, the KIM-1 was by MOS > Technologies, which hadn't yet changed their name to Commodore. I don't > know how you want to handle that. If I'm not mistaken, both names are on the board. I have a close-up picture of that somewhere... I'll try to dig it out tommorrow. ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 2 00:59:02 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B8E3A0@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970501225902.006e6768@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:33 PM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote: > | >- Add: NorthStar model with built-in monitor (forget the >model, Tim > | >Shoppa has one) > > | The NorthStar "Advantage" (I have one too) > >Yeah, come to think of it, the one Tim has that I was thinking of was >actually a similar IMSAI with built-in monitor. The name was something >like "DPC-1" Well... letters and numbers anyway... The IMSAI VDP-80. (sold and serviced those too!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Fri May 2 01:05:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Brett wrote: > Another problem with the idea is after the first one - what's left? Um, another show! This thing will (hopefully) grow year after year until it becomes just another one of those great shows to go to. I want to give the show some prestige and recognition, but this is something that comes over time, and as long as it's done right. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri May 2 01:26:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970501180247.007609b0@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >- Change: NorthStar Horizons primarily ran NSDOS > > Interesting... Many I worked with ran OASIS. B^} Speaking of which, I have a California Computer Systems S-100 based mini and had OASIS on 8" floppy but I messed up the system disk somehow (it won't boot anymore). Does anyone have a spare copy lying around on 8" floppy they could spare? Would this CCS system read such floppy? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Fri May 2 07:12:41 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <199705020514.XAA21484@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > By the way, now that I think about it, the KIM-1 was by MOS > > Technologies, which hadn't yet changed their name to Commodore. I don't > > know how you want to handle that. > If I'm not mistaken, both names are on the board. I have a close-up > picture of that somewhere... I'll try to dig it out tommorrow. Mine does anyway. I think it is one of the *newer* ones. (As I remember, my order was held up to get chips that were backordered and lt *newest* chip date is 8009 [I think that means week 9 of 1980 8-)]) By the Xtal in the tinned copper it says commodore C* - MOS where thhe * is the little flag thingy Commodore used. BC From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Fri May 2 06:23:23 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Well, here's my 2 bits on the ??'s in the Tandy Line... > 4D Micro Z80A 64K TRSDOS 6.X MICRO 85 There were really MANY DOS's for the 1/3/4 line, TRSDOS is what shipped with it. Few people use TRSDOS on the 1/3 where NEWDOS/80, LDOS were more popular. TRSDOS 6.X was really a licensed version of LDOS, IIRC. 100 80C85 32K Proprietary ROM Forgot about the 100, the predecessor of the 102. The 100 was thicker, by about 1/4", and had a few ROM bugs that the 102 fixed. Also, the 102 had a System Bus OUT port in a convenient place (where the printer & other I/O ports were) while the 100's system bus was under a case on the bottom of the machine. > 102 80C85 32K Proprietary ROM PORT. 86 There were some rudimentary OS for the 100/102 with the serial-port, tough-as-nails, 3.5" floppy drive. Without the drive, you used a ROM-based menu system. > 200 80C85 24K Proprietary ROM PORT. 85 A souped-up 100/102, in a clamshell. Same rules apply. > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 I'm fairly certain this machine had it's own flavor of TRSDOS but I'm not big on the 2/12/6K line. > Color Computer 2 6809E 64K ?? MICRO 84 > Color Computer 3 6809E 128K ?? MICRO 86 Not much I can do here. There was a Coco 1 which topped out at 32K with the same CPU (I think). There was also a micro- version of the COCO, the MC-10, which was perversely half- compatible with the COCO line. Had a 6809C CPU (I think), upgradable from 4K (stock) to 16K with an add-on plastic block that had a tendency to fall out at inopportune times. > PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 > PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 > PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 There are (as you'd no doubt guessed) a Portable Computer, a PC-2, and a PC-3. I don't think they carried Z80s, but I may be wrong. The PC-3 had a 24-character LCD with a max of 4K of RAM. > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 Oops... you had these. I think the Coco could go to 32K & the MC10 could only go to 16K. I'm fairly certain that the CPU on the MC10 was not a true-blue 6809. > TRS-80 Model 4P Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > TRS-80 Model 12 Z80 80K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 16B 68000 w/Z80 256K ?? MICRO 83 > TRS-80 Model 100 Z80 24K ?? MICRO 83 Another oops. I see you have the 100. But you did miss the grand-daddy of them all, the Model I. Z80A microprocessor, 48K Max RAM, Shipped with TRSDOS 2.3 in its heyday, but most people used NEWDOS/80, LDOS, or other 3rd party packages. > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 This was actually the first machine produced with the name TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of the TRS-80 line. > TRS-80 Model II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 78 > TRS-80 Model III Z80 64K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-1 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 80 > TRS-80 PC-2 Z80 32K ?? MICRO 82 Hope this helps! ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From spc at armigeron.com Fri May 2 10:57:37 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204B9A1EA@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 1, 97 07:16:08 pm Message-ID: <199705021557.LAA14966@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Kai Kaltenbach once stated: > > | > - Add: Data General MicroNOVA series, and Data General > portable > | Probably going to need a little more data... > > The portable was called the Data General 1. > Ah, I have a Data General 1. Made the cover of Byte in '84 (can't recall which month, but I can find out). Neat machine. 80C88 based and mostly IBM PCompatible and possibly the best keyboard I've ever seen on a portable/laptop period. I have 400+K RAM (can't recall how much offhand), two 3.5" 720K floppies, the external 5.25" floppy drive (thing is large) and printer (neat little thing, connects to one of the serial ports). It also has an LCD screen (non-backlit) that is compatible with CGA (it's actually capable of 640x256 but I don't have the tech specs on the video). The serial ports are not based upon the chips used in PC (8250? I don't have my references handy) but instead use the 8251 (?), which works differently, so I can't really use any MS-DOS comm programs (bummer). It runs MS-DOS 2.11. And I couldn't beat the price (free). I still use it. -spc (I also came with a half-decent tech ref) From gram at cnct.com Fri May 2 11:13:34 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > > I'm fairly certain this machine had it's own flavor of > TRSDOS but I'm not big on the 2/12/6K line. The 16/6000 systems could run a slightly patched Model II TRSDOS, or the TRSDOS-II that had come out as the Mod 2 series hard disk OS, or TRSDOS-16, written by Ryand-McFarland and never had any applications except the MBSI/Realworld bookkeeping system, or Xenix, my personal favorite. > > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 > > Oops... you had these. I think the Coco could go to 32K & > the MC10 could only go to 16K. I'm fairly certain that the > CPU on the MC10 was not a true-blue 6809. The MC-10 contained a MC6803 processor. It would load programs recorded by a Color Computer, but for some reason the BASIC keywords were given different tokens. > > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 > > This was actually the first machine produced with the name > TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of > the TRS-80 line. No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not TRS-80. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ronaldm at mars.ark.com Fri May 2 10:36:24 1997 From: ronaldm at mars.ark.com (Ron Mitchell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 prices (was: On Generations of People and Computers ) Message-ID: <199705021722.KAA07554@mars.ark.com> > A ][+ running AppleWorks? You're a sadist. Seems to work reasonably well. Think it's probably the RAM card that saves it. > > What kind of voice recog. card do you have? I have one as well but I > can't recall off-hand who the manufacturer is. I'll check it out and get back to you. -Ron Mitchell From scott at saskatoon.com Fri May 2 13:28:44 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last >TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not >TRS-80. Lies, Lies, it's all lies. The 2000 is in fact labelled TRS-80 Model 2000. I'm looking at a picture right now. The label reads: TANDY (Silver on Black) TRS-80 (Black on Silver) MODEL (The rest is Silver on Black) 2000 HD PERSONAL COMPUTER ttfn srw From zmerch at mail.northernway.net Fri May 2 13:47:03 1997 From: zmerch at mail.northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 1997, Gary S. Katz wrote: > Well, here's my 2 bits on the ??'s in the Tandy Line... > > > 102 80C85 32K Proprietary ROM PORT. 86 > > There were some rudimentary OS for the 100/102 with the > serial-port, tough-as-nails, 3.5" floppy drive. Without > the drive, you used a ROM-based menu system. I'm very big on the Tandy equipment in question (have 5 machines now...) and have already sent Bill a listing about several of the machines listed in this e-mail... but I do want to clear up a few misconceptions here. The DOS (not OS) in question above only did rudementary communication with the floppy drive... The floppy had it's own micrprocessor, ram and DOS built-in, and all you had to do is send it commands. That's one reason why it's so easy to interface to any other system (like a PeeCee). You just pipe it commands & data thru the RS-232, it does the rest. It still relied on the ROM-based menu system to work whether or not the drive was plugged in. Even the DVI (Disk-Video Interface, which enabled you to use an 80x25 mono text screen with VT52 (or was it VT-100) emulation and 2 40TkSSDD drives) still relied on the ROM-based software to function. > > 6000 68000 512K ?? MICRO 84 > > I'm fairly certain this machine had it's own flavor of > TRSDOS but I'm not big on the 2/12/6K line. The 6000 could run anything for the II/12 on it's Z80 CPU, but the main OS for this machine was XENIX, which ran on the 68K. > Not much I can do here. There was a Coco 1 which topped out > at 32K with the same CPU (I think). There was also a micro- > version of the COCO, the MC-10, which was perversely half- > compatible with the COCO line. Had a 6809C CPU (I think), > upgradable from 4K (stock) to 16K with an add-on plastic > block that had a tendency to fall out at inopportune times. No, the CoCo1 went to 64K, just like all the others. The *early* revision boards needed a small hardware mod (2 wires, I believe) but the later models (altho advertised at 32K) were in fact completely function 64K upgrades. Also, the MC-10 with the 16K "dongle" totalled 20K. You are correct in the statement that it was a very poor arrangement for upgrading, tho! > > PC-4 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 83 > > PC-5 Z80 ?? ?? PORT. 85 > > PC-6 Z80 8K ?? PORT. 86 > > There are (as you'd no doubt guessed) a Portable Computer, > a PC-2, and a PC-3. I don't think they carried Z80s, but > I may be wrong. The PC-3 had a 24-character LCD with a > max of 4K of RAM. Trivia: The PC-2 (which I *think* had a 26-chr screen) could do graphics! I programmed in a craps game that actually showed the dice! Wish I still had 'er! > > Color Computer 6809 16K ?? MICRO 84 > > Micro Color Computer 6809 64K ?? MICRO 84 > > Oops... you had these. I think the Coco could go to 32K & > the MC10 could only go to 16K. I'm fairly certain that the > CPU on the MC10 was not a true-blue 6809. See above, but also, the MC-10 was based on the Motorola 6803, and was *not* ML compatible whatsoever, as the instruction base was more along the lines of the 6800, not the 09. > Hope this helps! Me too! Cheers, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From gram at cnct.com Fri May 2 13:47:49 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > >No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last > >TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not > >TRS-80. > > Lies, Lies, it's all lies. The 2000 is in fact labelled TRS-80 Model > 2000. > > TANDY (Silver on Black) > TRS-80 (Black on Silver) > MODEL (The rest is Silver on Black) > 2000 HD > PERSONAL > COMPUTER OK, you're right, now that I've had time to think. It was the first machine to have the Tandy name instead of the Radio Shack name. Mine was left with my (now ex) wife in California, so I can't see it. And there's been a lot of water under the bridge (and brain cells killed) since I spent that much time with them. My Tandy 2000 (non-HD) spent most of its time as a terminal to my Model 16 or a 3B1 and the rest of its time as a 512k print buffer and serial/parallel converter for the 3B1, the 16, the 4p, the Mod 1 and the Color Computer, since my only printer in those days was an ancient MX-80 with a bootleg Graftrax ROM. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu Fri May 2 10:20:38 1997 From: garykatz at vms.cis.pitt.edu (Gary S. Katz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: References: <199705021523.LAA08848@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu> Message-ID: <199705021920.PAA24968@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu> On Fri, 02 May, Ward and/or Lisa wrote: ... many things that I stand corrected on ... > > > TRS-80 Model 1000 8088 128K ?? MICRO 85 > > > > This was actually the first machine produced with the name > > TANDY instead of TRS-80. The Model 2000 was the last of > > the TRS-80 line. > > No. The Tandy 2000 never had a TRS-80 logo. The 4D was the last > TRS-80 much later on. All of the MS-DOS machines were Tandy, not > TRS-80. Hmmm... I know that the Tandy 2000 was called a Tandy 2000 BUT, I seem to recall seeing the familiar TRS-80-style logo across the top of the keyboard above the function keys and also on the case of the CPU the full-blown Radio Shack TRS-80 Logo. Does anybody out there have a T2K they could look at to verify this? -gk > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > > ***************************************************** Gary S. Katz 626C OEH University of Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA 15213 (412) 624-9347 voice (412) 624-5407 fax ***************************************************** From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Fri May 2 14:46:39 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! (additions/changes) Message-ID: <9705021946.AA20448@aztec.asu.edu> Some other comments: The Exormacs from Motorola never, as far as I knew, ever ran Unix. It predated the Unix bit. I don't know that the VME/10 ever ran Unix, either. The preferred OS on those machines was VERSAdos. I like VERSAdos, still use it occasionally. Powerful enough to be quite useful, and clunky enough to be interesting! Apparently, there is enough legacy in VERSAdos that a 3rd party has "inherited" the rights and still sells it as a Real-Time Operating System! The CPU in a CC-40 was not a 9900, but rather a TMS7000. Still an interesting processor from my favorite company, Texas Instruments! There were several makes to the 990 mini line, but I'm not familiar with it. Some used discrete logic, some used the 9900 processor chip for the CPU. The OS of choice was DX-10. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Fri May 2 18:36:03 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Hi all. > > After getting your numerous recommendations on the last > version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It > now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base > RAM, Primary OS, > > > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR > ================================================================== > Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 > Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 To add to his list, fill in blanks: Z-89 CP/M Z-90 CP/M Z-100 192K/768K CP/M & Z-DOS Heath Corporation------------------------------------------------- H-89 Z80 48K CP/M Micro 79 H-90 (?) H-100 8088 w/8085 192K/ CP/M & Z-DOS Micro 81 768K The Heath Corp. computers (Heathkit) actually preceded the Zenith computers, although they are basically the same computer: the Heath version is the kit form, and the Zenith version is the factory assembled form. Heath originally designed them, then Zenith acquired Heath. I think the H/Z-100 was the first they worked together on. The Heath/Zenith H/Z-100 is a dual-operating system computer, running both CP/M and Z-DOS (Zenith DOS), then later Zenith-modified MS-DOS. The CP/M runs on the 8085, and the MS-DOS/Z-DOS boots up on the 8085, then switches to running on the 8088. Other OS available were CCP/M, CP/M-86, MMP/M (very brief), and I think that there was also a version of Xenix available, although I'm not positive about that. Seems to me it was also possible to get the Pick OS, but again, my memory is hazy as to that. At any rate, neither was the main OS if they were available. Once the 41256 RAM chip became available, the H/Z-100 had a maximum of motherboard RAM of 768K (became available from Heath/Zenith in 1985, I think). It's capable of addressing 16 Meg if someone wanted to put it in, although they would have to write their own software to manage it. Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. It was designed to run both 8- and 16-bit software, so people who had a big investment in 8-bit software running under CP/M would be more willing to buy a new computer. That dual OS design sold the military on the computer, and Zenith made a bundle on military contracts for it. Original operating speed was 5 Mhz; Heath/Zenith later upped that to 8 MHz. A common modification allows it to run at either 8 or 10 MHz. Someone has also managed to get it running at 33 MHz. However, it is not PC-compatible due to the S-100 buss design and the video. You can run a great deal of PC software on it, although the code may need patching in order to do so. Hope this adds to your computer list & provides interesting information. Susan From sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net Fri May 2 19:36:59 1997 From: sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: The List! References: Message-ID: <336A88AB.37BF@bellsouth.net> Susan M Johnson wrote: > > On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > Hi all. > > > > After getting your numerous recommendations on the last > > version ;) I updated the List of Classic Computers. It > > now includes 83 more machines and notes as to CPU, base > > RAM, Primary OS, > > > > > > ================================================================== > > MANUFACTURER > > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR > > ================================================================== > > Zenith Data Systems----------------------------------------------- > > Z-89 Z80 48K ?? MICRO 79 > > Z-90 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 81 > > Z-100 8088 w/8085 192K ?? MICRO 82 > > To add to his list, fill in blanks: > > Z-89 HDOS/CP/M-80 > Z-90 HDOS/CP/M-80 > Z-100 192K/768K CP/M & Z-DOS > > Heath Corporation------------------------------------------------- -->> H-8 8080 or Z-80 48Kb HDOS/CP/M-80 <<<<<<<<---------- > H-89 Z80 48K HDOS/CP/M-80 Micro 79 > H-90 (?) > H-100 8088 w/8085 192K/ CP/M & Z-DOS Micro 81 > 768K > > The Heath Corp. computers (Heathkit) actually preceded the Zenith > computers, although they are basically the same computer: the Heath > version is the kit form, and the Zenith version is the factory assembled > form. Heath originally designed them, then Zenith acquired Heath. I > think the H/Z-100 was the first they worked together on. > No... Zenith designed 110 and 120 series but Heath designed into kit forms with assembly manuals. Barry Waltman, engineer for Heath Company resigned and fed up with Zenith. He was master designed for H-8 and H-89 series > The Heath/Zenith H/Z-100 is a dual-operating system computer, running > both CP/M and Z-DOS (Zenith DOS), then later Zenith-modified MS-DOS. The > CP/M runs on the 8085, and the MS-DOS/Z-DOS boots up on the 8085, then > switches to running on the 8088. Correct!!! Other OS available were CCP/M, CP/M-86, > MMP/M (very brief), No... there was as follows: CP/M-85, CP/M-86, Concurrent CP/M-86, ZDOS then changed to MS-DOS (with Zenith routines). and I think that there was also a version of Xenix Unforuntately, there was never using Xenix those days!!! > available, although I'm not positive about that. Seems to me it was also > possible to get the Pick OS, but again, my memory is hazy as to that. At > any rate, neither was the main OS if they were available. > > Once the 41256 RAM chip became available, the H/Z-100 had a maximum of > motherboard RAM of 768K (became available from Heath/Zenith in 1985, I > think). It's capable of addressing 16 Meg if someone wanted to put it in, > although they would have to write their own software to manage it. Correct!!! > > Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 > & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not > common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. > During days of H/Z-110 and 120... there are only two floppy disk drives, 5.25" and 8". The 8" system was short lived. There was never using 3.5" but some people successful attempted this way when H/Z-100 were no longer in market. They have to write a special software included BIOS to work with 3.5" drive. SCSI system on H/Z-110 or 120 was very rarely. Those days it was called SASI. There was never using tape drive or CD-ROM drives because H/Z-110 or 120 never use with IDE or EIDE. But it can use with SCSI based interfaced. > It was designed to run both 8- and 16-bit software, so people who had a > big investment in 8-bit software running under CP/M would be more willing > to buy a new computer. That dual OS design sold the military on the > computer, and Zenith made a bundle on military contracts for it. > It was very sad part of H/Z-110 or 120... people use 8-bit software were almost never existence because of 8085. During early days when Zenith developed new 110 or 120. They abandoned idea to use 8086 and Z-80. They decided against it because of cost and difficult to interface. Barry Watzman disagreed and quitted. Zenith people tend to think for themselves and very selfish also greedy. Military gave a big contracted but later they were not happy with Zenith and decided no longer business. > Original operating speed was 5 Mhz; Heath/Zenith later upped that to 8 > MHz. A common modification allows it to run at either 8 or 10 MHz. > Someone has also managed to get it running at 33 MHz. > FCC tracer will love to catch a person who run at 33 MHz. The board was not design to go that higher. Perhaps he must put a lot of leads to block excessive RF and EMI. > However, it is not PC-compatible due to the S-100 buss design and the > video. You can run a great deal of PC software on it, although > the code may need patching in order to do so. > There were two famous hardware-based additional will allow to run PC-compatible software. They were GEMINI and EasyPC. I am using GEMINI but of course I cannot run Windows 95 :-( > Hope this adds to your computer list & provides interesting information. > > Susan From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 2 20:25:35 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: Trade Sun for Atari ST? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone in LA "Miscellaneous Lists" wanted to trade a Sun 3 for my Atari ST. I have sent a few emails, but have received no response. If you are still interested, contact me via email. If anyone else (in Northern/Central) California would like to trade old Sun/Unix/interesting machines/equipment/software for an Atari ST, let me know. I would prefer not to ship this stuff since it is pretty heavy and fills several cubic feet. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the list of stuff: 1 Atari 1040STF 3 SH204 Harddisks 1 SF314 Floppy drive 1 SF854 Floppy drive 1 SC1224 Monitor (color) 2 STM1 Mouse 1 Marconi RB2 Trackball 1 Standard Atari joystick There are also a bunch of cables for connecting everything togther, 10 or so magazines, a BASIC manual, 10 or so floppy disks, and what I believe are schematics for the monitor. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sat May 3 21:55:15 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 40 References: <199705020702.AAA04016@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <336BFA93.351B@goldrush.com> Lemme see if I can do some work on the Commodore Portion: (I'll leave the updating to one of you folks -please?-) Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 BASIC 2.0 & 7.0 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 BASIC 2.0 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 Never heard of it. Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 1.1, 1.2 Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 1.2, 1.3 CBM 3008 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 3032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? BASIC 2.0 CBM 4004 6502 4K ?? MICRO 79 I strongly doubt this one, a 4004??? CBM 4008 * 6502 8K ?? MICRO 79 BASIC 2.0 or 4.0 CBM 4016 * 6502 16K ?? MICRO 79 BASIC 2.0 or 4.0 CBM 4032 * 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 BASIC 2.0 or 4.0 * Should have designation for small or large screen such as FF for Fat Forty (large screen models were alway BASIC 4.0, small screen could be 2.0 or 4.0) CBM 8008? 6502 8K ?? MICRO ?? 8k? I don't think there ever was one... I could be wrong. :/ CBM 8016 6502 16K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8032 6502 32K ?? MICRO 79 CBM 8096 6502 96k ?? MICRO ?? CBM 8296 6502 96k ?? MICRO ?? BASIC 4.0 CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM P-500 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 MICRO 82 Should be CBM P-500 Any 'real' ones have been P-500s. I have one. I never read of a B-128 40 or B-256 40. CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 There is a 700 But not sure if it is a repeat. Executive 64 6510 64K CBMOS PORT. 83 BASIC 2.0 PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 4k,8k BASIC1.0 or 2.0 PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 8,16,32k BASIC 2.0 16 ---- 16K ?? MICRO 84 Plus 4 ---- 64K ?? MICRO 84 8501 BASIC 3.5 CBM SP9000 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? SuperPET 6502 & 6809 96K ?? MICRO 81 Same computer^^^^^^^^^^ BASIC 4.0 & MANY Others VIC-20 6502 5K ?? MICRO 81 BASIC 2.0 Additions: Ultimax 6510 4K BASIC 2.0 MICRO 82 Amiga 2000 68000 1,024k ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 86 Amiga 2500 68020 ? ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 8? Amiga 3000 Amiga 600 68000 1,024k ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 8? Amiga 1200 68020 2,048k ADOS 2.0 3.? MICRO Amiga 4000 68030?40? ADOS 2.0 3.? Amiga 4000T 68030?40? ADOS 3.? Commodore PC-10, PC-20, Commodore Colt, etc. IBM clones, (who cares.) Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat May 3 23:37:43 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 40 In-Reply-To: <336BFA93.351B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > Lemme see if I can do some work on the Commodore Portion: > (I'll leave the updating to one of you folks -please?-) > > > Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- > 128C 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 85 > 128D 8502 w/Z80 128K CBMOS MICRO 87 > BASIC 2.0 & 7.0 > > 64 6510 64K CBMOS MICRO 82 > BASIC 2.0 > > 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > Never heard of it. I think that might be a "65" in which case it would be: 65 65816 ???k CBMOS MICRO 93? For those who don't know what a C=65 is, ut was a prototype 16 bit C=64 with a built in 3.5" drive. Only a few of these baby's around! > CBM B256-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B500 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-40 ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM P-500 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 MICRO 82 > Should be CBM P-500 Any 'real' ones have been P-500s. I have one. > I never read of a B-128 40 or B-256 40. The B-128 40 was actually called the C128-40 (not to be confused with a regular C128). The line would read: C128-40 6509 (Z80 or 8088 opt.) 128k (expandable to 960k) BASIC 4.0 MICRO 1983 > CBM B128-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B128-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B256-80HP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > CBM B256-80LP ?? ?? ?? MICRO ?? > 6509/8086 opt. 128k BASIC 4.0 > There is a 700 But not sure if it is a repeat. The "B" models al;l came out in '83. The B128-80 had the same expansion options as the C128-40 and the B256-80 came standard with a 6509 and a 8088 with room for a 8087 (optional) and a Z-80 (optional). It had 256k ram stock (expandable to 960k). > Amiga 3000 > Amiga 600 68000 1,024k ADOS 1.3/2.0 MICRO 8? > Amiga 1200 68020 2,048k ADOS 2.0 3.? MICRO > Amiga 4000 68030?40? ADOS 2.0 3.? > Amiga 4000T 68030?40? ADOS 3.? Don't forget the A1500's and A2500's! (same as A2000 basically) > Commodore PC-10, PC-20, Commodore Colt, etc. IBM clones, (who cares.) The Commdore FAQ has a whole bunch more in the Canonical List of Commodore Products. Unfortunately, I am too lazy to type ALL the models in so... Les From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 4 00:50:46 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: Help ID this card... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970503225046.006e92a4@agora.rdrop.com> Should be a simple one, but lets see... (and 'cause I can't get to that section of my archives!) Card from an Apple II, wondering if it might be the interface for a ProFile HD. Markings on card: Xebec (now you know why I suspect a HD ctrlr) FCC ID CF77KL103916APPLE Assy 103916-04 Rev H-04 S/N 9-0733 What says the council? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Sun May 4 15:53:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: Help ID this card... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970503225046.006e92a4@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > Should be a simple one, but lets see... (and 'cause I can't get to that > section of my archives!) > > Card from an Apple II, wondering if it might be the interface for a ProFile > HD. > > Markings on card: > > Xebec (now you know why I suspect a HD ctrlr) > FCC ID CF77KL103916APPLE > Assy 103916-04 > Rev H-04 > S/N 9-0733 Just as I suspected. Its a HD controller card alright, but for the Sider harddrive. As far as I know, it won't work with the Profile. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun May 4 18:03:19 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: Well, here's this weekend's take: Among several computer's, I also brought in quite a few books. Here are the titles in case anyone's counting: PET Personal Computer Guide (1982) TRS-80 Color Computer and MC-10 Programs (1983) CP/M Handbook with MP/M (1980) How to Get Started with CP/M (1981) Mastering CP/M (1983) Using CP/M (1980) Color Computer Basic09 Programming Language Reference (with software) Osborne CP/M User's Guide [not Osbourne computer] (1981) The Elementary Commodore 64 (1983) Programming Techniques for Level II Basic (1980) Color Computer Playground (1983) Sams ToolKit Series VIC20 Edition (1984) Graphics Guide to the Commodore 64 (1984) TRS-80 Color Computer Programs (1982) I also got these manuals/software: TRS-80 Model II Operations Manual TRS-80 Scripsit Manual TRS-80 Videotex Commodore 64 Bonus Cassette Pack (this is 5 cassettes still in the original shrinkwrap of all things) I'm finding that I am more interested now in the accessories, like cables, manuals, modems, datasettes, etc. than in the computers I find now because I pretty much have all the common systems. What I really need to get a lot of my systems running are power supplies or, in most cases, the original video cable. A lot of these lame-o manufacturers of yester year (namely Commodore) used cables with ridiculous pin-outs for the video. Now onto the hardware...first some accessories: TRS-80 Modem I (very cool) (2) C64 1541 drives VIC 1541 drive Commodore 1531 Datasette And these systems: Commodore Plus4 Commodore 64 (for parts to fix my broken one) Atari 5200 (have 5 of these but none with the funky video/power adapter...this one had one so I bought it). Odyssey 3000 [!] (stand-alone unit with 4 built-in games...Pong-type games...by Magnavox) Laser 50 PC [!] (cool little "portable computer"...has a one-line 20 character LCD display with built-in BASIC...it is about half the width and thickness of a typical laptop...it is not a serious computer, more like a toy; manufactured by Vtech, which is the company that makes all those kids computer toys; circa 1985) Between the Odyssey 3000 and the Laser 50, I can't decide what I should choose as my catch of the weekend. Both are systems I had never even heard of or seen, so its always a nice surprise to pick up something like these out of the blue. Last but not least, I got this luggable that I need some help identifying. It is a portable that looks very much like an Osbourne (which is what I thought it was at first but realized it wasn't). It has a built in 7" screen and two 5.25" floppies. It has one knob on the front for contrast, and next to that is an RJ-14 (6-conductor) jack for the keyboard. There is no identifying mark on it anywhere. The front cover pops off revealing the screen/floppies and contains the keyboard. When it boots up, it just shows a flashing "K" with an underscore beneath it located at the upper left-hand corner of the screen. It doesn't do anything beyond that, which is making the identification process all the more difficult. The back has two DB25's, one male labelled SERIAL and the other female labelled PARALLEL. There are also some peripheral card openings. Cracking it opens reveals that it has what looks to be an XT bus with 4 slots. There are 2 cards and a hard drive inside. One card is labelled "Hyper CLOCK" and is obviously a clock card. The other is a Racal-Vadic modem. Then the 3rd & 4th slots are taken up by a hard-card (hard drive on a card) which plugs into one slot. It is manufactured by Tandon. The only chip of significance inside is a Motorola labelled MC6845P. I'm speculating that this is the CPU. There is a label on the motherboard (which is huge, measuring almost 2 feet square) which says "Corona Data Systems" and then "200290-512" which I am guessing means it has 512K. There are 4 rows of 16 each RAM chips...half are soldered in and half are plugged into sockets. Lastly, a label on the back of the outside say "Model M18P-2" and the keyboard is made by Keytronics. I didn't write it down but I believe I saw a date somewhere of 1981. Any help figuring this behemoth out would be appreciated. After figuring it wasn't an osbourne 1, I was going to pass on it but I offered $5 and for the hell of it and got it. Maybe it'll turn out be something cool. Oh yeah, total bill was $44.00. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun May 4 19:33:47 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:31 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 4, 97 04:03:19 pm Message-ID: <9705042333.AA09025@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1079 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970504/852b89d2/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun May 4 19:26:51 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: <199705050026.RAA25833@mx3.u.washington.edu> At 07:38 PM 5/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >> There is a label on the motherboard (which is huge, >> measuring almost 2 feet square) which says "Corona Data Systems" and then >> "200290-512" which I am guessing means it has 512K. > >Corona Data Systems was an early IBM-PC clone manufacturer from >1983 or so. I thought they went out of business when IBM sued >them big time for infringing IBM's BIOS copyright. Sam, Just in case you're interested, I do have the original Corona-specific versions of MS-DOS for their machines, both 1.25 and 2.11. I would think you'd be able to boot it with just about any 5-1/4" boot disk though, as I know of someone that got a new Pentium to boot with the Corona 2.11 disk, so there doesn't seem to be anything odd in the bios calls at boot up. There do appear to be some Corona-specific utilities on them though. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun May 4 18:25:24 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <336D1AE4.51F1@mindspring.com> Sam's share about his weekend take, made me want to crow a little about mine. At a local yard sale I found a Commodore 16 in original box, w/ user's manual AND monitor cable (even the original warranty card was still in there)...for $5.00. But the crown jewel was the Commodore SX64 that the guy had inside, and was willing to sell for $25.00. In perfect shape with a lot of original software (including an early version of GEOS). I have been wanting one of these for a while! I also have begun focusing on the accessories, especially if they are mint or near it. To me a good user's manual, or a batch of original software that is still usable is every bit as desirable as a fine old machine. Kirk dynasoar@mindspring.com From welsh at sleepy.ponyexpress.net Sun May 4 20:25:36 1997 From: welsh at sleepy.ponyexpress.net (welsh@sleepy.ponyexpress.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: recent finds Message-ID: <3.0.16.19960504202216.233f29e6@sleepy.ponyexpress.net> From zmerch at northernway.net Sun May 4 22:42:21 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: The List! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970504234219.00928860@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Steven J. Feinsmith happened to blather: >Susan M Johnson wrote: >> Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 >> & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not >> common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. > >During days of H/Z-110 and 120... there are only two floppy disk drives, >5.25" and 8". The 8" system was short lived. There was never using >3.5" >but some people successful attempted this way when H/Z-100 were no >longer >in market. They have to write a special software included BIOS to work >with 3.5" drive. SCSI system on H/Z-110 or 120 was very rarely. Those >days it was called SASI. There was never using tape drive or CD-ROM >drives >because H/Z-110 or 120 never use with IDE or EIDE. But it can use with >SCSI based interfaced. I have a few comments on what each of you said: Steven: Notice that Susan wrote "Currently," at the beginning of the sentance. That means that altho the 3.5" disk drives weren't available at the time of the machine's introduction, you can easily get any machine that uses the standard 34-pin floppy interface to use a 3.5" disk drive. I currently use 3.5" drives on both my Atari 800 and my Tandy Color Computer 3, neither of which had 3.5" drives available at the time of their introduction. Provided you were replacing an 80TkDSDD 5.25" (or lesser) drive with an 80TkDSDD 3.5" drive, you would not need a new BIOS, as the drives are electrically equivilant. Steven: Also, SASI and SCSI are *different*, SASI being the precursor of SCSI. Altho they are *somewhat* compatible IIRC, SCSI did have extra features that could not be used with a SASI interface. Susan: You're sentance above is slightly misleading, however, as there were no 96tpi 3.5" drives that I've ever heard of (and I own some *weird* ones!) Everything from the 200K SSSD Tandy Portable Disk Drive 2 (used for Tandy's *early* non-MSDOS laptops) right on up to the 2.88Meg ED drives are 135TPI. Hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 5 01:08:42 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: recent finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19960504202216.233f29e6@sleepy.ponyexpress.net> Message-ID: > >From the libary booksale this past week..... > > Books > > SupersPort Port Computer User/Technical Manual (Zenith Data Systems) > > TOTAL COST $1.00 (one buck) > If you don't have a SupersPort, i am willing to give you the cost of the whole bunch of stuff for that manual (I have one, need a manual) Of course, $1 plus shipping! :) Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 5 01:13:14 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970504234219.00928860@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: I think AT&T made some funky 96 tpi drives in the 80's. (Probably to match their 96tpi 720k 5 1/4" drives) My PC6300 has support for them in the bank switches so I suppose *someone* made them *somewhere* Les From ekman at lysator.liu.se Mon May 5 03:47:34 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <199705050702.AAA11529@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Please, Sam. Would you stop using the title "yo" for all your messages? It makes life very difficult for those of us who get the digest version and only read some selected messages. Put something nice and descriptive instead. On a similar note, when someone replies to a digest, don't use the name of the digest as the subject. /Fredrik From pcoad at crl.com Mon May 5 04:08:54 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: weekend acquisitions 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hats off to Sam Ismail. I think that he had the best published weekend so far. I hit 3 places this weekend and I picked up: Commodore VIC-20 (original box without packing foam) 1541 floppy disk drive (box, manual, power cord) 1530 datassette unit (box) VIC-20 Paddle (VIC-1312 really two paddles on one plug) Cartridge Software: The Sky is Falling (with box) Seawolf (with box and instructions) Road Race The Count Voodoo Castle Videomania (Creative Software) * 4 cassette tapes of possibly boot-leg VIC software. Superexpander with 3K Ram cartridge ** 8K RAM Cartridge VIC-1541 Single Drive Floppy Disk User's Manual Joystick box (empty :-() PixelPaint (copyright 1987) Inside The Amiga (book, copyright 1986) Floppy disk holder (don't know the manufacture date, but likely not classic) Lime snow cone (thankfully not classic) *** It was a pretty good weekend. The VIC came with the original receipt ($303 for the VIC, Paddles, Joystick, Seawolf, and The sky... carts.), and a user's manual. The manual had barely any technical information in it on the specs for the machine. This is no great surprise since the word "friendly" is plastered every where on the box. From the List, it appears that the VIC-1541 is nearly equal to the VIC-20 in processing power, but has 3K less memory. It also seems very odd that the cassette unit has no power cord or supply. It must have leeched power from the host machine through the data port. (I never had a Commodore machine during their heyday, I had a Sinclair ZX81 and later an Atari 800, so all of this is new to me.) * Anyone know what this is? It came loose in the box with the VIC. ** This does not look any different from the 8K cartridge. I'm not sure what the "Superexpander" part really means. It is not the expander which allows multiple carts to be plugged in at the same time. *** It was hot at the flea market. Total: $12 (including the snow cone). --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From scott at saskatoon.com Mon May 5 08:35:15 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: weekend acquisitions 2 Message-ID: <199705051332.HAA12945@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Superexpander with 3K Ram cartridge ** > > ** This does not look any different from the 8K cartridge. I'm not > sure what the "Superexpander" part really means. It is not the expander > which allows multiple carts to be plugged in at the same time. This is a 3k ram expansion (obviously) plus a ROM with additional BASIC commands to make graphics and sound a bit easier. It also gives the ability to map commands to the function keys. I probably have the manual in a box downstairs. If you really want a photocopy I could get one to you. ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From dastar at crl.com Mon May 5 10:28:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Fredrik Ekman wrote: > Please, Sam. Would you stop using the title "yo" for all your messages? It > makes life very difficult for those of us who get the digest version and > only read some selected messages. Put something nice and descriptive > instead. Heh heh heh. Ok. (sorry) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 5 10:32:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: weekend acquisitions 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Commodore VIC-20 (original box without packing foam) > 1541 floppy disk drive (box, manual, power cord) > 1530 datassette unit (box) > VIC-20 Paddle (VIC-1312 really two paddles on one plug) > Cartridge Software: > The Sky is Falling (with box) > Seawolf (with box and instructions) > Road Race > The Count > Voodoo Castle > Videomania (Creative Software) * > 4 cassette tapes of possibly boot-leg VIC software. > Superexpander with 3K Ram cartridge ** > 8K RAM Cartridge > VIC-1541 Single Drive Floppy Disk User's Manual > Joystick box (empty :-() I could've had two complete VIC systems with games, datasettes and the whole works but the guy selling wanted $25 each system (he was selling them as "video games") so I blew him off. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon May 5 12:37:13 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul, + collection list & wanted list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204BFAFFE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> OK, here's what I came up with this weekend: - Atari 800 in *perfect* condition with AC adapter and RF modulator (the latter two in their original boxes), with a full complement of RAM & ROM cards installed, and the original BASIC cartridge. Got this on my first stop! After that it was all gravy. - Three (3) Mattel Aquarius machines (these are quite rare, at least around here--got 3 in one place!! Weird!) with captive power supplies - Timex-Sinclair ZX1000 with RAM expansion pack - Spectravideo SV-328 in original color display box, with data cassette drive, also in original box (I've never actually seen one of these "in the flesh" before) - TI 99/4A original black/silver version, mint, in original color display box, with PS, RF modulator, manuals, etc. replacing my existing TI 99/4A that was all banged up - TI 99/4A original black/silver version with 2 perfect joysticks, voice synthesizer, PS, RF modulator (didn't need the machine itself, obviously, but the whole box worth was only $6) - TI 99/4A *expansion bay* (another rare piece) with flex cable card, RS232 card, 32K RAM card, and disk controller card, with one 5 1/4" floppy drive. Geez, this sucker weighs as much as an S100 bus machine! - TRS-80 Color Computer 1 in mint condition, replacing my existing CoCo1 that had significant wear - Rare Donkey Kong and Moon Patrol Atarisoft carts for the TI 99/4A - Non computer related: Raiders of the Lost Ark on RCA Selectavision CED Videodisc, mint Nothing like another thrift store weekend in the obscure corners of the Seattle/Tacoma/Everett metroplex! Kai ------- Current collection ------- ("for trade" items are, of course, available for trade!) (Want List follows) Computers Altair 8800 with original Altair boards Altair 8800b with original Altair boards, dual 8" drives Altair 8800b (under restoration) Apple II+ with two floppy drives, monitor arch, MS Softcard Apple Macintosh 128 with manuals, carrying case, System 1 Apple Macintosh 512K in original box (for trade) Apple Macintosh 512K (for trade, needs floppy drive) Apple Macintosh Plus (for trade) Atari 800 Atari 800XL with 1010 tape drive and 1050 floppy drive (for trade) Atari 1200XL (for trade) Coleco ADAM with manuals, printer Coleco ADAM Upgrade for Colecovision ("exp unit 3") Commodore PET 2001, original 'chiclet' keyboard version Commodore PET 2001, full size 'graphics' keyboard (for trade) Commodore VIC-20 (original version) in original box Commodore VIC-20 (later version) in original box (for trade) Commodore 64 in original box with 1541 drive in original box Commodore 64 in original box (for trade) Commodore 64 in original box (for trade) Commodore 128 in original box (for trade) Compaq Compaq Cromemco System 3 (rack mount version) with dual 8" IMSAI 8080 with IMSAI CPU, 64K SRAM, CompuPro dual 8" Ithaca InterSystems DPS-1 Kaypro 10 with internal 10MB HD, CP/M, apps Kaypro II Kaypro II (for trade) Mattel Aquarius Mattel Aquarius (for trade) Mattel Aquarius (for trade) Osborne 1 Spectravideo SV-328 Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 w/floppy drive, printer, manuals, case Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 (for trade) Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 (under restoration, for trade) Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer I with floppy drive Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer I (for trade) Tandy TRS-80 Model I with exp interface, 2 floppy drives Tandy TRS-80 Model III with 2 floppy drives Texas Instruments 99/4A in original box, with expansion bay Texas Instruments 99/4A (for trade) Texas Instruments 99/4A (for trade) Timex Sinclair ZX1000 with 4K RAM Expansion Timex Sinclair ZX1000 (for trade) Game Systems Atari 2600 w/2 joysticks, 2 paddles, original manual Atari 5200 w/2 controllers, PS Atari 5200 w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Atari 5200 w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Atari Super Pong Coleco Telstar Classic in original box Coleco Telstar Colortron in original box Colecovision w/2 controllers, PS Colecovision w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Colecovision w/2 controllers, PS (for trade) Fairchild Channel F in original box GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex with Multicart GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex (for trade) Mattel Intellivision with Intellivoice module Mattel Intellivision II with Intellivoice module Mattel Intellivision (for trade) Milton-Bradley Microvision Nintendo NES Magnavox Odyssey2 in original box with Multicart Magnavox Odyssey2 in original box (for trade) Magnavox Odyssey2 in original box (for trade) Radio Shack Color TV Scoreboard in original box ------- Want List ------- Apple I Apple II Apple /// Apple Lisa Commodore Amiga 1000 in original box Compucolor II or 8051 Exidy Sorcerer IBM 5100 Portable KIM-1 Processor Tech SOL RCA COSMAC (ELF/VIP) The following in original boxes only: Atari 7800 Colecovision Emerson Arcadia 2001 Magnavox Odyssey (not Odyssey2) Mattel Intellivision RCA Studio II Sega Master System From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Mon May 5 09:35:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Trade Sun for Atari ST? Message-ID: I do not have anything to trade, but are you willing to sell? Mike ---------- From: Paul E Coad To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Trade Sun for Atari ST? Date: Friday, May 02, 1997 9:25PM Someone in LA "Miscellaneous Lists" wanted to trade a Sun 3 for my Atari ST. I have sent a few emails, but have received no response. If you are still interested, contact me via email. If anyone else (in Northern/Central) California would like to trade old Sun/Unix/interesting machines/equipment/software for an Atari ST, let me know. I would prefer not to ship this stuff since it is pretty heavy and fills several cubic feet. --pec ----------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Here is the list of stuff: 1 Atari 1040STF 3 SH204 Harddisks 1 SF314 Floppy drive 1 SF854 Floppy drive 1 SC1224 Monitor (color) 2 STM1 Mouse 1 Marconi RB2 Trackball 1 Standard Atari joystick There are also a bunch of cables for connecting everything togther, 10 or so magazines, a BASIC manual, 10 or so floppy disks, and what I believe are schematics for the monitor. From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Mon May 5 17:20:45 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: CGL M5 tape Message-ID: <862867295.0625203.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Hi all... I picked up a CGL M5 and original rubber-keyed 48K Spectrum (complete with V23 modem!) a couple months back for a fiver. The M5 is in very good condition and complete with three cartridges and numerous original manuals all in perfect condition. It also came with a tape which i had a little play with today but i can't get anything but the first program (a screen colour test) to load :-( Looking at the tape it seems like its been through a dodgy tape deck at some stage as the tape itself has a couple of deep grooves in it. So, has anyone got a good tape they could copy for me? For information it's a grey cassette housing with a purple, green and white striped label marked "GAME" at the top and "Baseball, ZAC BANIC" at the bottom on both sides. I'm located in the UK and would happily send you a cheque to cover the cost of a blank tape and postage. TIA...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From josh at netins.net Mon May 5 17:17:05 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted Message-ID: <199705052216.RAA32228@insosf1.netins.net> I am looking for a 3.5 Disk & the odd DIN-5 modem or printer (Imagewriter I) cable for my newly aquired IIC. Would be willing to set up a trade...have an old tandy Portable Disk Drive 2. If anybody has those, or knows a place on the net' that doesn't charge +$50 for an old drive, please let me know! If there is a better place to post this, please let me know! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon May 5 18:34:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted In-Reply-To: <199705052216.RAA32228@insosf1.netins.net> from "Josh M. Nutzman" at May 5, 97 05:17:05 pm Message-ID: <9705052234.AA29344@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970505/e84733fc/attachment-0001.ksh From jim at calico.litterbox.com Mon May 5 17:49:52 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted In-Reply-To: <199705052216.RAA32228@insosf1.netins.net> from "Josh M. Nutzman" at May 5, 97 05:17:05 pm Message-ID: <199705052249.QAA18936@calico.litterbox.com> I think the DIN-5 cables for your modem and printer are the same ones still used for the Mac. As for the floppy drive, I'd try looking at comp.sys.apple2.marketplace. That failing, let me know and I'll dredge up the Altech address (it's not www.alltech.com) - they sell refurbished a2 equipment -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon May 5 18:15:26 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: The List! (MORE additions/changes) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C6DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> From josh at netins.net Mon May 5 19:49:28 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted Message-ID: <199705060049.TAA25432@ins1.netins.net> >I think the DIN-5 cables for your modem and printer are the same ones still >used for the Mac. As for the floppy drive, I'd try looking at >comp.sys.apple2.marketplace. > >That failing, let me know and I'll dredge up the Altech address (it's not >www.alltech.com) - they sell refurbished a2 equipment Well, I have a mac and it uses a ? Mini-DIN 8? Thanks for the suggestion of Altech. I'll look them up! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon May 5 18:42:41 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C712@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, Due to the shocking absence of a computer collecting newsgroup (alt.folklore.computers is used a bit, but doesn't really apply), I'm submitting an RFD for rec.collecting.computers.classic. If anyone would like to be listed as a co-proponent, let me know. This may entail some work in assisting/monitoring the RFD process. The RFD will be cross-posted to classiccmp when complete. thanks Kai From danjo at xnet.com Mon May 5 22:20:11 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C712@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > Due to the shocking absence of a computer collecting newsgroup > (alt.folklore.computers is used a bit, but doesn't really apply), I'm > submitting an RFD for rec.collecting.computers.classic. If anyone would > like to be listed as a co-proponent, let me know. This may entail some > work in assisting/monitoring the RFD process. > > The RFD will be cross-posted to classiccmp when complete. > > thanks > > Kai Kai, I don't really mean to slow you down here but aren't there enough newsproups? cpm has one apple has one macintosh has one. I mean that's why I joined the mailing list! I really don't want another newsgroup to get spammed from, the obtuse oldies we can cover here would never warrent a group but certainly could fill an archive or a FAQ in this group. As machines get more rare, their sales value goes up. BUT WE DON'T WANT TO SELL! I am afraid we will be swamped with offers of CASH (such a hard thing to say NO to 8-) by clueless yuppie-puppies who have NO IDEA how to keep the machines running and won't want to so LOOK clueless and will never visit again after getting their prize. Then after the *fad* dies down, they will just chuck them in the trash and they will be gone forever. That and all the Spam that will fly thru just makes me say NO! Leave it in a mailing list. Advertise the list - but please - no more newsgroups. Bill! How many people on the list now? They maybe only represent 10% of the people who love these clunkers but at least we are all family! BC From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 6 00:10:51 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: from "Brett" at May 5, 97 10:20:11 pm Message-ID: <9705060410.AA27827@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1735 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970505/999947fe/attachment-0001.ksh From idavis at comland.com Mon May 5 23:20:04 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Weekend Finds Message-ID: <199705060441.XAA12523@ds9.comland.com> I went on a little shopping spree this weekend, and actually managed to find some stuff this weekend. It seems every garage sale in the north Austin area is nothing but junk, but I finally managed to find a little place with some of everything. I asked the guy if they had any atari stuff, joysticks or games, and he told me to follow him to the back. He had a box full of joysticks, and other assorted junk. I picked up the box and some other carts for my 2600 for $40. When I got home, I dug every thing out, and this is what I found. 1) Odessey2 with joysticks attached. But no power supply. Anyone know the voltage and polarity for this old thing? Of course no cartridges either, but maybe next time. 2) Mattel Aquarius with box, manual, and cassette cables and software. 3) About 20 atari 2600 carts, most of them were ones I had been looking for like air/sea battle. I don't really want to collect rare carts, just the ones I had when I was a kid. 4) Coleco Gemini Video Game System. It plays atari 2600 cartridges, and it turns on, but the screen stays black. No clue, and I don't really have the electronic equipment or knowledge to fix it. I might let my dad check it out. He's a radar technician with a lot of equipment. Maybe I should get him to teach me. 5) An 8-track tape - Spotlight the greatest hits of Gene Pitney, Del Shannon, and Tommy Roe. I'm debating whether or not to dig out the 8-track player. 6) Assorted pile of power supplies. They look like they are for assorted answering machines. 7) An Atari 1010 cassette recorder. 8) A piece of telephone testing equipment I think. Has a switch (tone, off, pulse), a telephone plug, and two wires with alligator clips. I think it's for tracing telephone wires. 9) A pile of Atari joysticks, a coleco joystick, and a couple of various cartridges for assorted systems, none of which I own. Maybe that's the incentive I need. "I've got a cartridge honey, I could really use this old obsolete computer to make sure it works. You don't want to see this cartridge go to waste do you dear??" All in all it was a decent haul for me. This place is only open for 6 hours on the first saturday of the month, so I was lucky to even get in the place. I saw a ti-99/4a, but already spending $40 was pushing it for me. Maybe next month I will get to the back again and dig for more treasure. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 5 23:52:38 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <9705060410.AA27827@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? Maybe they could have a focus on one specific machine per month (or whatever) with maybe some tech specs, basic "one-liners", and the sort for those of us who don't have manuals/want to "learn" more, etc. Or maybe some "getting started" info. You'd be really surprised how some people take forever figuring out how to do the "simple things." (take for example, the number of posts one sees in comp.sys.cbm about how to get a directory on a C64) Each of us has his/her strongpoints. One person might be an apple person or maybe a commie guy, etc. I mean I have an old TRS-80 Model 1 that I really don't know what to do with! Why? I picked it out of the trash and consequently, have no manuals! Just an idea... and it really wouldn't take that much effort! Les From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Tue May 6 00:15:16 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Weekend Finds Message-ID: <01IIJ2QZ3TRC8Y6VVC@AC.GRIN.EDU> > 1) Odessey2 with joysticks attached. But no power supply. Anyone know the > voltage and polarity for this old thing? Of course no cartridges either, > but maybe next time. There's an Odyssey^2 FAQ at http://www.zoomnet.net/~kcassidy/o2faq.html and a old-videogame-power-supply list at http://www.clark.net/pub/vgr/lists/l_power.html One of these ought to have it. HTH, -- Ben Coakley coakley@ac.grin.edu http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley/classic for my classic game page! From LDICKEY at west.pima.edu Mon May 5 17:35:27 1997 From: LDICKEY at west.pima.edu (Loren Dickey) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Apple IIC 3.5 Disk, Modem/printer cable wanted In-Reply-To: <199705060049.TAA25432@ins1.netins.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Josh M. Nutzman wrote: > >I think the DIN-5 cables for your modem and printer are the same ones still > >used for the Mac. As for the floppy drive, I'd try looking at > >comp.sys.apple2.marketplace. > > I'm not sure, but a 3.5" floppy may not work on an earlier //c. You may be able to use the Unidisk (400k as oppose to the 800k), but I have heard that many of the 3.5 floppy drives couldn't be used on a //c due to the fact that it doesn't contain the firmware to access these drives. You might want to post a message on comp.sys.apple2 to confirm this, though. Of course, if it's a //c+, then you should be able to use these drives with no problem. > >That failing, let me know and I'll dredge up the Altech address (it's not > >www.alltech.com) - they sell refurbished a2 equipment > Well, I have a mac and it uses a ? Mini-DIN 8? Thanks for the suggestion > of Altech. I'll look them up! > Alltech Electronics Co. has changed its name to Computer Circulation Center. Despite that, it doesn't look like a whole lot has changed. Computer Circulation Center dba: Alltech Electronics Co. 2618 Temple Heights Oceanside, CA 92056 Phone #: 760-724-2404 http://www.allelec.com --- ####### "Hey...how'd I get in here?" | 0 0 | Loren Dickey ( ^ ) ldickey@west.cscwc.pima.edu \ ^ / ldickey@aztec.asu.edu From starling at umr.edu Tue May 6 01:19:36 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: PCB Corrosion? Message-ID: <199705060619.BAA11277@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Last weekend I aquired an Apple Lisa 2/5 (finally!!), however the NiCad batteries that backed up the system clock have corroded and leaked all over the IO board and the backplane/motherboard (system uses a nifty CPU-on-card design like the OLD computers). Does anyone have any magic solutions to removing the green gunk from the printed circuit boards and components? I'm wanting to remove the stuff and preserve the system from further corrosion. (and yes, I am taking out those damn things) The green gunk has messed up one of the card slots so the IO card doesn't go. I plan to clean that out using one of those Nintendo cartridge slot cleaners (little card/pad thingy that you put stuff on and insert into slot). That'll get her running again for a while... but I really need all the gunk off and the corrosion STOPPED. any ideas that help save my Lisa would be greatly appreciated! chris starling From starling at umr.edu Tue May 6 01:43:09 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Battery Leakage... Solution? Message-ID: <199705060643.BAA12365@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Well... after a bit of searching, I've found a solution on www.flippers.com, a pinball homepage. The guy there says to remove all corrosion and then neutralize the alkali with a 50/50 solution of white vinegar and distilled water, scrub with toothbrush, rinse in distilled water, and then dry with a hairbrush. This sound feasible or is it a bad idea? thanks! From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 01:47:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C1C712@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > Due to the shocking absence of a computer collecting newsgroup > (alt.folklore.computers is used a bit, but doesn't really apply), I'm > submitting an RFD for rec.collecting.computers.classic. If anyone would > like to be listed as a co-proponent, let me know. This may entail some > work in assisting/monitoring the RFD process. > > The RFD will be cross-posted to classiccmp when complete. > Kount me in Kai. I'll do whatever I can to help. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 01:54:38 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Brett wrote: > That and all the Spam that will fly thru just makes me say NO! > Leave it in a mailing list. Advertise the list - but please - no > more newsgroups. I almost agree with you but I would like to see a newsgroup. It will just allow us to reach a broader group. I think Bill Whitson did a good job of putting this discussion group together, with his simple yet effective qualification process (who are you and why should you be allowed to be in this discussion group). I think thus far we have had some really good discussions on some good stuff. The same can't be said about a newsgroup because off-topic messages and superfluous cross-posting of drivel are inevitable. But... > > Bill! How many people on the list now? They maybe only represent > 10% of the people who love these clunkers but at least we are all > family! Keeping it to ourselves is counter productive. The point is to share the knowledge to get more people interested to preserve more computers. The point is we do this because we have passion for the systems. Every hobby is going to be prostituted some time or another. As long as your passion remains, its all good. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 02:04:14 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? > Maybe they could have a focus on one specific machine per month (or > whatever) with maybe some tech specs, basic "one-liners", and the sort for > those of us who don't have manuals/want to "learn" more, etc. Or maybe > some "getting started" info. You'd be really surprised how some people > take forever figuring out how to do the "simple things." (take for > example, the number of posts one sees in comp.sys.cbm about how to get a > directory on a C64) Each of us has his/her strongpoints. One person > might be an apple person or maybe a commie guy, etc. I mean I have an old > TRS-80 Model 1 that I really don't know what to do with! Why? I > picked it out of the trash and consequently, have no manuals! Actually, this is a great idea and is something I have been contemplating. I want to start a classic collector journal and have it coincide with the C4 show but I don't think I will have time for it. I'm hoping that maybe by the end of the year I can get something going. But I would need support from others, especially to write articles. Perhaps we can make it a group effort? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 02:01:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Weekend Finds In-Reply-To: <199705060441.XAA12523@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > 1) Odessey2 with joysticks attached. But no power supply. Anyone know the > voltage and polarity for this old thing? Of course no cartridges either, > but maybe next time. I think it uses a standard 9V DC (don't know about polarity, probably standard) but I can't back this up. I have a few but they're all tucked away. Hopefully someone else can jump in here. > 2) Mattel Aquarius with box, manual, and cassette cables and software. Awesome. > 4) Coleco Gemini Video Game System. It plays atari 2600 cartridges, and it > turns on, but the screen stays black. No clue, and I don't really have the > electronic equipment or knowledge to fix it. I might let my dad check it > out. He's a radar technician with a lot of equipment. Maybe I should get > him to teach me. I think the contacts where the carthridge plugs into is probably dirty. I had the same problem with some carts I bought from a swap meet. At first they didn't work and I thought I was screwed, but after inserting them over and over, the build-up of crud (oxidation) on the pins eventually eroded and the carthridge started to work. You probably need to try and clean the carthridge slot somehow. > 5) An 8-track tape - Spotlight the greatest hits of Gene Pitney, Del > Shannon, and Tommy Roe. I'm debating whether or not to dig out the 8-track > player. Random. > 8) A piece of telephone testing equipment I think. Has a switch (tone, off, > pulse), a telephone plug, and two wires with alligator clips. I think it's > for tracing telephone wires. That's a toner. You also need the wand (or in lineman speak, the banana) which is an inductive pickup device with a speaker that you use to pinpoint which pair you are tracing. You put the toner on one end (ie. plug the mod plug into the jack or clip on the alligator clips) and then go to your punchdown blocks and run the wand over the terminals until you find your pair. Very useful. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue May 6 07:30:05 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Australian computers... Message-ID: <199705061230.NAA18918@cream.motiv.co.uk> Hi, In mid June I will be travelling to Australia and while I am there it would be nice to pick up some classic computers. So my question is, are there any home computers that were mainly found in Australia? I know of the System-80, which I know as a Video Genie (a TRS-80 clone), and I think the Microbee also originates from Australia. All information will be gratefully recieved. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ PS. I may be able to squeeze in some small UK items to trade so let me know if you are interested and are in Brisbane or Sydney. From classicjr at juno.com Tue May 6 10:45:05 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 39 References: <199705010702.AAA19470@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970506.074650.8263.0.classicjr@juno.com> Is this list still active? I haven't received any digests for several days. Please continue my subscription. From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 09:02:33 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c Message-ID: <199705061359.HAA11333@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? > > Just an idea... and it really wouldn't take that much effort! I like this idea. Maybe it could be a group collaborative effort. (Another mailling list?) Besides articles relating to collecting, I think it would be really cool to try to obtain the rights to reprint some classic magazine articles that some of us never got to see, or were to shortsighted at the time to keep. (Construction type articles. Maybe some reviews.) (Are we talking about 'ink and paper' here or electronic? I was thinking 'ink and paper', but [html,pdf,whatever] wouldn't be bad either.) > Les ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 6 10:42:55 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Well how about a "Computer Journal" all our own? Or better yet, why not just start writing FOR te Computer Journal! > Just an idea... and it really wouldn't take that much effort! Even less if you don't have to do the publishing! (I've been there) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 6 13:09:11 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c In-Reply-To: <199705061359.HAA11333@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > I like this idea. Maybe it could be a group collaborative effort. > (Another mailling list?) Besides articles relating to collecting, I > think it would be really cool to try to obtain the rights to reprint > some classic magazine articles that some of us never got to see, or > were to shortsighted at the time to keep. (Construction type articles. > Maybe some reviews.) We could *summarize* old articles and as long as it's documented there would/should be no problems. I have a stack of old Compute! mags (Mar 84-Jun 86) and another stack of 99'er and HCN from around the same time period. Not to mention the piles of old BASIC books, users manuals, FAQ's, and net mags that I have collected over the years. > > (Are we talking about 'ink and paper' here or electronic? I was > thinking 'ink and paper', but [html,pdf,whatever] wouldn't be bad either.) > Well, HTML (etc.) would definitely be "easier" but printed copies would be "neater" There are drawbacks to both (HTML allows easier/cheaper use of color) but if we start with HTML it really wouldn't be too much trouble to generate printed copies of the mag from it. PLus HTML is "free" wheras printed copies would need a modest fee, means for collecting this, places to print, etc. If someone wants to start a "printed copy" after we get the netside of things going than I'm in, but I think we should start with HTML or whatever. Either way, I'm in! Suggestions? Les From idavis at comland.com Tue May 6 14:32:07 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970506193207.008f9274@mail.comland.com > >generate printed copies of the mag from it. PLus HTML is "free" wheras >printed copies would need a modest fee, means for collecting this, places >to print, etc. I agree with Les, start with an electronic form, then maybe move to print. I am on a limited computer budget to begin with, I would hate to reduce it any further, I might miss that big find I have been looking for. I would like to see some program listings for various machines and various languages included. I learned more from magazine program listings than I did from anywhere else. I still use program listings to divine tips and tricks. Besides, it is interesting to see program listings for other machines, and see if anything applies to a machine I am using. I am sure all of us have some programs for our machines that we could clean up and submit for inclusion, and no worries about copyright violations if we wrote them, not to mention just having some valuable information available for the taking. Plus as we add to our collections, finding program listings will give us a place to start with a new unknown machine. I actually tell people that we used to get programs in magazines, and typed them in sometimes for days at a time, and they laugh and me and think I am pulling their leg. Just be sure and include program listings. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 14:55:46 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, hellige wrote: > On 29-Apr-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >I'll second his nomination, and with great trepidation add Jay Miner to > >the list. :) > > I think Jay Miner is definately worthy of inclusion since he did much of > the design of the Atari 8bit machines, such as the 400/800, and he is > generally considered the father of the Amiga line. Jay is certainly important, but I'd hesitate at saying he was as influential as someone like Gary Kildall, Steve Wozniak, or Chuck Peddle. As much as I love all of the things Jay Miner gave us, there aren't that many people who were actually aware of his machines, let alone the man himself. Perhaps if he had worked somewhere without Stealth Marketing... > > Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to nominate Jack Tremiel? Uh... not me! But what about Sir Clive Sinclair, and that Tandy guy. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 15:03:15 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: <970429193201_-467416177@emout12.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 KFergason@aol.com wrote: > someone can correct me if necessary, but weren't the first PDP's pretty > "important" in that respect? Suddenly, universities could have their own > systems. or maybe I am dreaming, mixing stories from various books. > > Kelly Actually, the professor for the computer organization & assembly language course I took this semester continually used the PDP-11 as an example. It's interesting that, although we were learning 8086 assembly, the code during the lecture was usually for the PDP-11, and we studied various aspects of the PDP-11's hardware. The professor thought that the PDP-11 was the perfect system to learn this kind of thing on... And before you ask, actually the professor in question is only a young man of 32 years in age. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 15:09:26 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970429205235.007c98d0@postman> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > fyi, on p. 272 of November '79 Byte: a company called AB Computers offered > a device called "BETSI", described as a "PET to S-100 Interface & > Motherboard". cost was $119. While i'm on that page, the PET was $795 for > the entry level system (8K, small keybd, cassette) and on the high end: > $1,295 for 32K system with "business" keyboard. A 2040 dual diskette drive > (343,000 bytes total) would set you back another $1,295. Thanks for the info! I guess it was a fairly common type of device, then. I wonder if there are also IBM-PC to S100 interfaces? (Actually, something like that would be a cool addition to my Amiga 1200. :) ) BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ Even my collection of COMPUTE! and COMPUTE!'s Gazette magazines is borrowed. (I'm hoping the owner forgets about them. ;) ) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From spc at armigeron.com Tue May 6 15:28:50 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: PET to S100 bus interface In-Reply-To: from "Doug Spence" at May 6, 97 04:09:26 pm Message-ID: <199705062028.QAA24968@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Doug Spence once stated: > > BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on > Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I > don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then > my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ Maybe. But be wary of getting a complete collection though. While I haven't read a Byte magazine in several years, (since the early 90s), those that I have seen I tend to group into three catagories: 1. Hobby Era (start of publication to late 83/early 84) Many articles about specific machines, hardware and software wise. Most program listings are in assembly or BASIC, although you will find the occasional Lisp, Forth or (Tiny)-C listing. The peak is ~79/80. 2. Journal Era (early 84 to late 87/early 88) More scholarly type articles (more like papers), less hardware and hobbiest oriented articles abound. More theory related articles. The peak is ~85/86. 3. PC Rag Era (early 88 through the 90s) This actually started with the introduction of the IBM PS/2 line in late 87, although the real shift wasn't noticible until sometime in 88. The emphasis shifted more towards product reviews, mostly PCs and PC related hardware/software. I stopped reading Byte in early to mid 90 and haven't really looked at it since, so it might have shifted once again. My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library at the university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read 8-). The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, then 1985 then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. -spc (It started sliding when Robert Tinney stopped doing magazine covers, (~87) then it nose dived once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing hardware articles, (~88 or 89) although there are some that think it started way back in '77 when Pournelle started his column) From gram at cnct.com Tue May 6 15:39:47 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Magazines in microform In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on > Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I > don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then > my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ I do remember ads in the back of Byte, Kilobaud and other magazines saying that those publications were available in Microform. The ads were from, IIRC, a company called University Microfilms in [break to search the web] Ann Arbor, MI -- no web site indicated. The library in Montclair, NJ has a large number of CDs of magazines, but I haven't spent enough time there to investigate whether they might have old computer magazines. The CDs are apparently from that same company. (I live in a different county and out-of-town library cards cost dearly around here for some reason). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 15:40:36 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > ...But the only PET books this library has are things like > > collections of type-in programs for the PET, and books on using the PET in > > an educational environment. Nothing good and technical. > > The technical ones are some of the hardest to locate, some of mine > came from a Commodore Group weeding out their library, I bought them via > mail. The most PET books I've come across are old college and school > textbooks (anyone see "Hands-On BASIC with the Commodore PET?" yuk.) Let's see, I printed out some stuff from the univerity's catalogue... (where'd I put that?) Ah! There was a book entitled "Waterloo 6809 Assembler : tutorial and reference manual", which has on the cover a SuperPet, and listed in the SUBJECT is : Assembler language PET (Computer) --Programming Commodore Superpet computers. That one looks fairly technical, but alas I have no SuperPet. :) The only other mentions of the PET in the printout I've got here, are "Mostly BASIC : applications for your PET" and "Microcomputers in science teaching : especially the PET in physics". Haven't seen "Hand-on BASIC...", thankfully. ;) > Subject: BBSes on old hardware and SuperVIC > > > (re: VIC-20) I'd put at least 32K in it, with a memory > > protection toggle on the RAM so that it could run images of cartridges > > from disk. > > There is a file I think on funet.fi's FTP that describes and internal > mod that does just that. :) Cool! I'll have to look for that. BTW, a friend of mine in London, Ont., has just reported that he's found a 16K RAM cart for the VIC and he's mailing it to me. Pretty sad when other people are finding more stuff for my collection than I am. :) > > I intend to write the software on my own, but fast serial routines might > > come in handy. I want to at least get 2400bps out of the thing. > > Most of the BASIC boards I have is up to 1200 baud, I know for 2400 you > probably have to tweak the timing registers, cause the computer does not > provide decent numbers. Well, I'll see what I can do. I'm not scared of eventually writing the whole thing in assembly, or even with a monitor (I typed in the monitor that was in the COMPUTE!'s First Book of VIC, and I could use the PET for that purpose as well). > > I don't think that'll be a problem for the VIC-20, as it's faster at I/O than the > > 64. I'll probably have to put in a lot of RAM, though, to act as buffers > > for the slow disk drives. :) > > There have been a bunch of articles for adding 256k to 1 meg internally > to the 64 and bank-switching, not sure if that's possible on the VIC > though, they may be adaptable. I don't think I'll need quite that much. A friend of mine (who has since moved to Toronto and I've lost track of him) expanded his VIC-20 up to 48K by himself. And as an interesting asside, he also interfaced a UART to his VIC so it could go up to 9600bps, and he was working on interfacing a CGA card to the VIC as well, before he was hired by IBM and suddenly didn't have any time for his projects anymore. > > Do you mean the music teacher's programs, or the Cursor tapes? :) > > YES! YES! OK, how do you want 'em? :) BTW, one program from Cursor #2 was damaged and won't load anymore. I've been wanting to fix that for a while, but I loaned my Amiga 1000's sampler to someone a few years back and he loaned it to someone... who moved to Ontario. The damage is just in the header, so it shouldn't be hard to fix once I can get it sampled and stored on disk. > Mine are also from High School and I can say I have programs from 13 to > into the 20s I think. No originals here either *sniff* Say... howsabout sending copies of those to me? :) > > Ouranos! is an awesome game, BTW. I had the PET print up the listing and I > > intended to port it to the Amiga, but I never got around to it. I don't > > think it'd be the same, though, on anything but another PET with glaring > > white screen. > > Weather War II for the Commodore-64 is a re-write of Ouranos! nifty > little character graphic castles, SID sound, sprites were used to add > some foliage (just for looks) I'll have to see if I can hunt that down. > My 'calculator keyboard' PET has 1.0 too. I have the schematics and > diagnostics for it too... Has been modified with a reset switch has > ability to use a skyles add-on keyboard (you have to load and run a > program first), and of course, expandamem. Cool! The lack of a reset switch bugs me sometimes. > > Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of > > course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to > > this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this > > locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than > > 8K. :) > > I think those are only 8kx1. I did look at my expandamem board and the > chips with the plates on them had (c)Mostek written. Actually, I believe the quote you had in your other post said the 4116 was 16k bits... which would make my board 64K, which is too big without some kind of bank switching scheme, isn't it? > Heck I'll toss in some disks full of other goodies too. But don't hold > your breath I tend to froget doing things (like mailing stuff) for a > spell. Cool! Thanks. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From gram at cnct.com Tue May 6 16:01:35 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: The decline and fall of Byte In-Reply-To: <199705062028.QAA24968@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the > cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library at the > university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read 8-). > The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, then 1985 > then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. > > -spc (It started sliding when Robert Tinney stopped doing magazine covers, > (~87) then it nose dived once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing hardware > articles, (~88 or 89) although there are some that think it started > way back in '77 when Pournelle started his column) Well, most of my older Byte magazines were destroyed by water several moves ago, and I wouldn't mind acquiring most of them again. I had mostly given up on Byte in the mid-eighties, but in recent years I've wound up with a subscription (recently finally expired) due to McGraw-Hill ceasing publication of more useful magazines. Ciarcia's articles were always excellent (and I know that most of them were released in book form awhile back), and his current magazine, "Circuit Cellar Ink" is pretty good, especially if you're a serious hardware hacker as I no longer am. Actually, nowadays, Pournelle's column is about the only thing I read in the magazine, and now that it's available on the web (with extra text), I really don't care to subscribe. Opinions vary concerning Jerry Pournelle. I've known him for over twenty years due to our mutual interest in science fiction and membership in the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society (I'm still a member despite living in New Jersey -- Death Shall Not Release You!). Over the years we've had a lot of conversations and arguments, about politics (he's in favor of having a government, I'm opposed), about space development (we're both in favor) and computers (I was a Shacker, and while I was living elsewhere on the continent he had bad experiences with a very early TRS-80 and the company rather hurt themselves by being uncooperative and ignorant of the power of the press -- which is why after I showed him one of the first Model 100s, he went out and got a NEC equivalent). He's a man of strong opinions who's always trying to learn something new and so am I. Really, he should be a member of this mailing list -- he's experienced directly more of the history of computers than most of us who've worked and played with them. That plus having the clout to get information from the movers and shakers. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 6 16:21:03 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> About 9 years ago when I was in our end user support organization, I had occasion to speak to Jerry. He was threatening to give QuickBasic a scathing review because he couldn't get it to compile Mrs. Pournelle's Reading Program (what else?) under Windows 386. He called up our QuickBasic group manager and just about carved him a new orifice. I, as the Windows support lead, was asked to call him on this very urgent, sky-is-falling problem and help him out, since as you may have noticed from years of columns, he never, ever calls support himself. The conversation went something like this: Me: "Hi Mr. Pournelle, this is Kai with Microsoft Product Support..." Jerry: "What the HELL are you DOING calling during my DINNER TIME?!?" Me: "I'm sorry sir, I understood you had a very urgent issue, and I had no way of knowing..." Jerry: "YOU PEOPLE are MORONS! " And things went downhill from there. Later on we finally got to the problem, which as I recall was related to a bizarre SCSI adapter in that silly Cheetah 386 he had, the one into which he would put any piece of hardware any manufacturer ever sent to him for free. Not a great experience. I spoke to him again a few months later on a different issue, and he was no more lucid or logical on that occasion. Kai > ---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers[SMTP:gram@cnct.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 2:01 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: The decline and fall of Byte > > On Tue, 6 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is > the > > cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library > at the > > university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read > 8-). > > The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, > then 1985 > > then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. > > > > -spc (It started sliding when Robert Tinney stopped doing magazine > covers, > > (~87) then it nose dived once Steve Ciarcia stopped writing > hardware > > articles, (~88 or 89) although there are some that think it > started > > way back in '77 when Pournelle started his column) > > Well, most of my older Byte magazines were destroyed by water several > moves ago, and I wouldn't mind acquiring most of them again. I had > mostly > given up on Byte in the mid-eighties, but in recent years I've wound > up > with a subscription (recently finally expired) due to McGraw-Hill > ceasing > publication of more useful magazines. Ciarcia's articles were always > excellent (and I know that most of them were released in book form > awhile > back), and his current magazine, "Circuit Cellar Ink" is pretty good, > especially if you're a serious hardware hacker as I no longer am. > Actually, nowadays, Pournelle's column is about the only thing I read > in > the magazine, and now that it's available on the web (with extra > text), I > really don't care to subscribe. Opinions vary concerning Jerry > Pournelle. > I've known him for over twenty years due to our mutual interest in > science > fiction and membership in the Los Angeles Science Fantasy Society (I'm > still a member despite living in New Jersey -- Death Shall Not Release > You!). Over the years we've had a lot of conversations and arguments, > about politics (he's in favor of having a government, I'm opposed), > about > space development (we're both in favor) and computers (I was a > Shacker, > and while I was living elsewhere on the continent he had bad > experiences > with a very early TRS-80 and the company rather hurt themselves by > being > uncooperative and ignorant of the power of the press -- which is why > after > I showed him one of the first Model 100s, he went out and got a NEC > equivalent). He's a man of strong opinions who's always trying to > learn > something new and so am I. Really, he should be a member of this > mailing > list -- he's experienced directly more of the history of computers > than > most of us who've worked and played with them. That plus having the > clout > to get information from the movers and shakers. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 16:31:39 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: <9705012132.AA12001@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > If there's room on the list, I'd like to see a couple more > columns added: > > 1. List price at introduction > 2. Some trade rag references from the time of introduction. (Ads > or reviews in _BYTE_, for example.) Unfortunately, I'm running out of column space ;). I may add these in the future but right now I'm really tired of flipping through stacks of magazines. (I'm still staring at the source info. for the potential early PC clone list. Ugh.) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 16:43:04 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Bill! How many people on the list now? They maybe only represent > 10% of the people who love these clunkers but at least we are all > family! I think it's still just over 200. Subscribership hasn't increased for a while. I haven't spammed the newsgroups in a while either though. Maybe it's time to fill my inbox with flames again ;). Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 16:52:52 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Keeping it to ourselves is counter productive. The point is to share the > knowledge to get more people interested to preserve more computers. The > point is we do this because we have passion for the systems. Every hobby > is going to be prostituted some time or another. As long as your passion > remains, its all good. Let me clarify, just in case. Anyone with interest can join this list. If you guys wish to spread the word or post about it in appropriate places be my guest. I don't stand one way or the other on the newsgroup idea but I think it's agood idea to take a look at groups like comp.sys.ti where the bulk of the info comes from the mailing list reposts and almost everything else is spam. That is the reason why I decided to go with a mailing list rather than a newsgroup. It seems silly to argue about the group if the process has already been started - if it gets created it will either get used or not. If it passes I'll be one of the people reading it as I'm sure most of you will. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 17:03:16 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c In-Reply-To: <199705061359.HAA11333@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: > I like this idea. Maybe it could be a group collaborative effort. > (Another mailling list?) Besides articles relating to collecting, I > think it would be really cool to try to obtain the rights to reprint > some classic magazine articles that some of us never got to see, or > were to shortsighted at the time to keep. (Construction type articles. > Maybe some reviews.) Along the same line but not the same: I've been reasearching the possibility of putting old magazine articles up on the ClassicCmp web site. I'll probably be starting this weekend. I've determined that articles from the following magazines are unlikely to get me in trouble: Softside, Micro, Call APPLE, Creative Computing More may come in the future. The critera for "unlikely to get me in trouble" are 1. Magazine and/or publishing company out of business and unreachable 2. Statements that reproduction is allowed (like Creative Computing!). If you know of other "safe" magazines or are interested in scanning some pages to put up, let me know. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon May 5 07:21:22 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:32 2005 Subject: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 06-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Jay is certainly important, but I'd hesitate at saying he was as >influential as someone like Gary Kildall, Steve Wozniak, or Chuck Peddle. >As much as I love all of the things Jay Miner gave us, there aren't that >many people who were actually aware of his machines, let alone the man >himself. No, he didn't influence a whole 'generation' of computer hobbyist the way CP/M did and such, but he certainly did some interesting things with the hardware! Unfortunately, another computer great that has since passed away. >> >> Out of curiosity, is anyone willing to nominate Jack Tremiel? >Uh... not me! But what about Sir Clive Sinclair, and that Tandy guy. :) Hmmmmmm...I can't quite think of the name of the head of Tandy that killed off so many of thier good ideas. They had some interesting machines...and sometimes even rather innovative. Too bad they tended to ship with a lot of the interesting stuff crippled. Sir Clive Sinclair on the other hand gave us the Sinclair series, so he couldn't be all bad. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 6 17:17:21 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR > ================================================================== > Apple Computer, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > Apple II 6502 16K ADOS 3.X MICRO 77 > Apple II+ 6502 48K ADOS 3.X MICRO 81 I *think* (though I'm not sure) that the ][+ is from 1979. Could just be fried braincells on my part. ;) > Apple IIc 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 85 > Apple IIc+ 65C02 128K PRODOS8 PORT. 86 > Apple IIe 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 82 > Apple IIgs (ROM 01) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 86 > Apple IIgs (ROM 02) 65C816 256K PRODOS16 MICRO 87 > Apple IIgs (ROM 03) 65C816 1.25MB GS/OS MICRO 88 > Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 The Apple III is definitely earlier than 1983. I have a booklet entitled "Apple In Depth" from 1981 and it has the Apple III in it. Also, I found a review of the III in the December, 1980 issue of Popular Science (p.113). Actually, the III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? > Commodore--------------------------------------------------------- > 655 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 I've never heard of the 655. > Amiga 1000 68000 256K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 The Amiga 1000 was available in 1985. > Amiga 500 68000 512K AMIGAOS MICRO 86 1987. And you're missing the A2000, also from 1987. > PET 2001 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001B 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 > PET 2001N 6502 ?? ?? MICRO 79 I don't know about the various flavours of the PET 2001, but the original model was available in 1977. > Jonos International----------------------------------------------- > C2000 Z80A 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2100 Z80A w/8085 64K ?? MICRO 85 > C2150 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2550 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > C2600 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 84 > Escort C2100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > Escort C2500 Z80 128K CP/M MICRO 83 Jonos also made some portables. Sorry, I don't have the details. You could get them with various processors, though. Almost made-to-order, I think. > Kaypro Corp.------------------------------------------------------ Is it Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems? My II has the NLS logo on it. > Kontron Electronics----------------------------------------------- > PSI 80 Z80 32K CP/M MICRO 81 Humm... a book I got out of the library a couple of years back listed the PS1-80, PS1-98, PS1-908, PS1-980, and PS1-9068. The 9068 was based on the 68000, and came with 256K. It supposedly ran CP/M (I guess it'd be CP/M-68 :) ), KOS, and UNIX. KOS was probably just a variant of UNIX. Release date was listed as 1984. > Ohio Scientific--------------------------------------------------- > MasterKey 220 6502 48K OS-65 MICRO 83 > MasterKey 230 6502 52K OS-65 MICRO 82 > MasterKey 250 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 330 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > MasterKey 350 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 82 > MasterKey 2301 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 83 > OSI-710 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > OSI-720 SuperMicro 68010 ?? ?? MICRO 85 > WorkSystem 200 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 > WorkSystem 300 ?? ?? ?? MICRO 84 Also the Challenger. > Sanyo Business Systems Corp.-------------------------------------- > MBC-1000 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 82 > MBC-1100 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1150 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1160 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-1200 Z80 64K CP/M MICRO 83 > MBC-1250 Z80 (x2) 64K CP/M MICRO 85 > MBC-2000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-3000 8085 64K ?? MICRO 82 > MBC-4050 Z80 w/8086 128K ?? MICRO 85 > PHC-20 8085 4K ?? ?? 83 PHC-10 ?? 2K ?? Handheld ?? PHC-25 Z80A 16K ?? MICRO ?? I don't know if the above actually made it out the door. They're mentioned in COMPUTE!, March 1983, p.34. > Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- > ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 Also the ZX80, Spectrum, QL, and 2068. > Sord Computers, Inc.---------------------------------------------- > IS-11 Z80 64K ?? MICRO 84 > IS-11C Z80A 80K ?? MICRO 87 > M 23 Z80 128K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68 Z80 w/68000 256K ?? MICRO 83 > M 68MX 68000 512K ?? MICRO 87 Also the M343. > Video Technology Computers, Inc.---------------------------------- > Laser 50 Z80 2K ?? PORT. 84 > Laser 128 6502 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 128EX 65C02 128K PRODOS8 MICRO 87 > Laser 200 6502 4K ?? ?? 83 > Laser 3000 6502 64K ?? ?? 83 Laser 3000 6502 192K? ?? MICRO ?? Sorry, don't know how to verify the amount of RAM. It might be able to run ProDOS, but I don't have a disk drive to try it out. The ad I have from Computer Direct lists 192K RAM. There are a couple of graphics modes that I can't address with simple PEEK and POKE, so I at least know there's more than 48K. I wish I could find somebody with docs for the thing. > Xerox Corporation------------------------------------------------- > System 744-I Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > System 744-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 83 > 16/8 Z80 w/8086 192K ?? MICRO 83 > 820-II Z80 64K ?? MICRO 82 Also the plain 820, and the 860. Is the Xerox Star hiding up there under some other name? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Tue May 6 17:18:17 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Magazines in microform In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970506181817.00855470@postman> University Microfilm is now "UMI" (www.umi.com). They have tons of serials on Microfilm, e.g. see http://wwwlib.umi.com/sim/menu There's a lot to wade through and it ain't cheap, but they've probably got most popular magazines from the 70's and 80's out there (they have 19,000 periodicals; 7,000 newspapers). Byte and Kilobaud are listed as are many more "oldies" (they have Radio-Electronics going back to 1929!). For some serials they offer individual copy or article copy capability. Their main customers are libraries of course. - glenn At 04:39 PM 5/6/97 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 6 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > >> BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on >> Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I >> don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then >> my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ > >I do remember ads in the back of Byte, Kilobaud and other magazines saying >that those publications were available in Microform. The ads were from, >IIRC, a company called University Microfilms in [break to search the web] >Ann Arbor, MI -- no web site indicated. The library in Montclair, NJ has >a large number of CDs of magazines, but I haven't spent enough time there >to investigate whether they might have old computer magazines. The CDs >are apparently from that same company. (I live in a different county and >out-of-town library cards cost dearly around here for some reason). >-- >Ward Griffiths >"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within >the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > > > > From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue May 6 17:32:00 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 06 May 1997 18:17:21 EDT." Message-ID: <199705062232.RAA10295@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Doug Spencer asks: >Actually, the III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? I don't remember seeing an Apple III, but there was a glimps of a Cray 1. It wasn't in focus though )-: Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 17:38:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.c In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > More may come in the future. The critera for "unlikely to get me in > trouble" are 1. Magazine and/or publishing company out of business and > unreachable 2. Statements that reproduction is allowed (like Creative > Computing!). Computist magazine was very specific to Apple ][s (at least until the last issues where they began contemplating including other computers such as Atari STs and Amigas) but was a great little magazine. It mostly contained recipes for cracking software protection, but almost always had an apple hardware project or other need tidbits. They're gone now. I have about 15 issues, but the total run was maybe 40? That would be a nice magazine to re-produce. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 6 17:48:37 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> In the movie _Sneakers_, Ben Kingsley plays an ex-hacker who is now the financial data processing administrator for the Mob. He has a large complex of systems including a very Cray-like central processor and all sorts of fancy accessories. He's extolling the virtues of mob money to Robert Redford's character, and to illustrate his point he turns on the Cray's terminal... lo and behold, the Cray runs Microsoft Excel! Since we were in a theater about 6 blocks from Microsoft corporate campus, that scene was the biggest laugh of the film. Kai > ---------- > From: Brian L. Stuart[SMTP:stuart@colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 3:32 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: The List! > > Doug Spencer asks: > >Actually, the III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? > > I don't remember seeing an Apple III, but there was a glimps of > a Cray 1. It wasn't in focus though )-: > > Brian L. Stuart > Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN > stuartb@acm.org > http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ > From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 6 17:48:57 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DF@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I agree completely Bill. Here are some reasons I can think of off the top of my head for starting the newsgroup: - If we look at The List that has been circulating, only about 1% of those manufacturers have a comp.os.* group associated. - Someone who has a classic computer in their closet doesn't want to join a mailing list just to post a targeted for sale ad. - We don't want posts from commercial vendors of classic systems/software/parts filling up our mailboxes, but I'd like to encourage them to post to the newsgroup. - alt.folklore.computers is for discussions about folklore (did Gary Kildall really refuse to sign that IBM nondisclosure, thus dooming CP/M?) not buy/sell/trade activity. - A mailing list is an inappropriate place to hold an auction - Usenet is automatically archived and searchable via DejaNews Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson[SMTP:bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 1997 2:52 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD > rec.collecting.computers.classic > > > Keeping it to ourselves is counter productive. The point is to > share the > > knowledge to get more people interested to preserve more computers. > The > > point is we do this because we have passion for the systems. Every > hobby > > is going to be prostituted some time or another. As long as your > passion > > remains, its all good. > > Let me clarify, just in case. Anyone with interest can join this > list. > If you guys wish to spread the word or post about it in appropriate > places be my guest. > > I don't stand one way or the other on the newsgroup idea but I think > it's agood idea to take a look at groups like comp.sys.ti where the > bulk of the info comes from the mailing list reposts and almost > everything else is spam. That is the reason why I decided to go with > a > mailing list rather than a newsgroup. It seems silly to argue about > the > group if the process has already been started - if it gets created it > will > either get used or not. If it passes I'll be one of the people > reading > it as I'm sure most of you will. > > Bill > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 6 18:56:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 6, 97 03:48:37 pm Message-ID: <9705062256.AA17039@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 127 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970506/9a78eb9b/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon May 5 08:16:43 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > ================================================================== > MANUFACTURER > MODELCPU RAM OSTYPEYR > ================================================================== > Sinclair Research, Ltd.------------------------------------------- > ZX81 Z80A 1K ?? MICRO 85 Actually, I believe the ZX-81 came out in 1981, as shown below. I bought my Timex-Sinclair in late 1982, if I remember correctly. Also, the documentation that was included with the ZX-81 I have has letters from Sinclair Research dated March 10, 1982, as well as a review of the ZX-81 in Englad dated August 1981. Two interesting things about this: 1) the ZX-81 I have was originally delivered in kit form and still has the assembly diagrams and such; 2) The magazine review, taken from "Personal Computer World" and re-published in "Creative Computing", November 1981, states that at the time, the ZX-81 was available in England but not yet in the U.S. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From starling at umr.edu Tue May 6 18:38:54 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705062256.AA17039@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at May 6, 97 03:56:22 pm Message-ID: <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... chris *ling lisa fanatic From ldickey at west.cscwc.pima.edu Tue May 6 19:03:17 1997 From: ldickey at west.cscwc.pima.edu (ldickey@west.cscwc.pima.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <009B3DC7.DB6B9A00.53@west.cscwc.pima.edu> DATE SENT: 6-MAY-1997 16:59:36 > >I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in >it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the >computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... > I think it may have been an Atari (1200xl?). It's been years since I last saw the movie, so I might be wrong. --- ####### "Hey...how'd I get in here?" | o o | Loren Dickey ( ^ ) ldickey@west.cscwc.pima.edu \ o / ldickey@aztec.asu.edu From visimp at junction.net Tue May 6 20:10:24 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <19970506.171024.61@junction.net> In message <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C50957@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> you wrote: > About 9 years ago when I was in our end user support organization, I had > occasion to speak to Jerry. He was threatening to give QuickBasic a > scathing review because he couldn't get it to compile Mrs. Pournelle's > Reading Program (what else?) under Windows 386. He called up our > QuickBasic group manager and just about carved him a new orifice. I, as > the Windows support lead, was asked to call him on this very urgent, > sky-is-falling problem and help him out, since as you may have noticed > from years of columns, he never, ever calls support himself. The > conversation went something like this: > > Me: "Hi Mr. Pournelle, this is Kai with Microsoft Product Support..." > Jerry: "What the HELL are you DOING calling during my DINNER TIME?!?" > Me: "I'm sorry sir, I understood you had a very urgent issue, and I had > no way of knowing..." > Jerry: "YOU PEOPLE are MORONS! " > > And things went downhill from there. Later on we finally got to the > problem, which as I recall was related to a bizarre SCSI adapter in that > silly Cheetah 386 he had, the one into which he would put any piece of > hardware any manufacturer ever sent to him for free. > > Not a great experience. I spoke to him again a few months later on a > different issue, and he was no more lucid or logical on that occasion. > > Kai I have read many letters here and I hope this is NOT what we are going to continually hear - Microsoft reps patting themselves on the back because they and the company can NEVER BE WRONG. Let's keep company reps out if they only want to glorify the company (that basically has the computer world in turmoil with poor quality non-innovative software). -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 6 19:34:41 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) In-Reply-To: <19970506.171024.61@junction.net> Message-ID: Lets please not start a flame thread here. I have contacted the parties involved via private e-mail. I don't believe Kai has said anything unreasonable and I don't want people out gunning for people from the MS domain on this list. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > I have read many letters here and I hope this is NOT what we are going > to continually hear - Microsoft reps patting themselves on the back > because they and the company can NEVER BE WRONG. Let's keep company > reps out if they only want to glorify the company (that basically has > the computer world in turmoil with poor quality non-innovative > software). From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 6 20:44:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) In-Reply-To: <19970506.171024.61@junction.net> from "Lindsay Thachuk" at May 6, 97 05:10:24 pm Message-ID: <9705070044.AA01778@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 206 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970506/74360aa7/attachment-0001.ksh From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 20:05:05 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: The List! Message-ID: <199705070102.TAA01292@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > > Apple III 6502 128K SOS MICRO 83 > > The Apple III is definitely earlier than 1983. I have a booklet entitled > "Apple In Depth" from 1981 and it has the Apple III in it. Also, I found > a review of the III in the December, 1980 issue of Popular Science > (p.113). Strictly from my memory but, I'm _positive_ the A/// was released in fall of 1980. It actually beat the IBM PC to market, but had 100% hardware malfunction in the first run, and didn't have the bugs fixed until after the PC was out. (No longer strictly from memory. I just checked it out, It _Was_ Sept. 1980, and the ][+ was June 1979.) Apple has a great 'History' at: http://product.info.apple.com/pr/background/pr.background.timeline.html (Of course, it doesn't really mention any of the major failures.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 20:09:41 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705070106.TAA01656@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > You can't forget about the PDP-8/E with DECTape drives that > appeared in "Three Days of the Condor". And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, though.) ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 20:22:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > In the movie _Sneakers_, Ben Kingsley plays an ex-hacker who is now the > financial data processing administrator for the Mob. He has a large > complex of systems including a very Cray-like central processor and all > sorts of fancy accessories. He's extolling the virtues of mob money to > Robert Redford's character, and to illustrate his point he turns on the > Cray's terminal... lo and behold, the Cray runs Microsoft Excel! > > Since we were in a theater about 6 blocks from Microsoft corporate > campus, that scene was the biggest laugh of the film. I thought it was simply amazing how that blind guy could figure out what an electronic device did by simply rubbing his fingers over the components. THAT'S INCREDIBLE! But I digress. I thought the most realistic computer scenes in terms of relevance to reality were in War Games. I think the stupidest were in The Net. I have mixed feelings about Disclosure. But of course, I digress. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 20:31:21 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Starling wrote: > I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in > it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the > computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... I think you're right. I wouldn't mind seeing that movie again to find out. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 20:59:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705070106.TAA01656@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > You can't forget about the PDP-8/E with DECTape drives that > > appeared in "Three Days of the Condor". > > And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, > though.) Yes there was. I've never seen one elsewhere. Its such a beautiful machine. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 6 22:52:17 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970506235215.00a2bae0@mail.northernway.net> Two of my favorites: ISTR (tho I haven't seen it since it came out) that the original Terminator was programmed in: 1: Basic (Applesoft Basic, wasn't it?) 2: 8-bit Assembly (methinks 6800/6809, but it could have been 6502... memory fuzzy) 3: Get this: COBOL!!!!! ;-O There may have been others... but those are three I distinctly remember from the movie. The other one (of course): Scotty talking to a mouse on an original Macintosh (which, of course) had the computational capabilities of a Cray it would seem... And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! Inquiring minds want to know! Prost, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 22:57:56 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705070355.VAA21562@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Two of my favorites: > > ISTR (tho I haven't seen it since it came out) that the original Terminator > was programmed in: > > 1: Basic (Applesoft Basic, wasn't it?) > 2: 8-bit Assembly (methinks 6800/6809, but it could have been 6502... > memory fuzzy) That reminds me... was it Inner Space where the guys working on the computers were simply going through pages of monitor dumps on Apple ][+ or //es? ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From scott at saskatoon.com Tue May 6 22:58:36 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705070355.VAA21661@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! Shouldn't that actually be the 65,536 byte question? ttfn srw ------------------------------------------------------------ Walde Techonology http://scott.cprompt.sk.ca Box 7284 finger: scott@cprompt.sk.ca Saskatoon, SK S7K 4J2 email: scott@saskatoon.com CANADA email: scott@cprompt.sk.ca -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d- s:+>: a- C++++$ UL++++$ !P L++ E- W+++$ N+ o? K? w$ O- M-- V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP->++ t+ 5 X+ !R tv- b+ DI++++ D+ G e* h r++ y- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 6 23:01:40 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970506235215.00a2bae0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! > > Inquiring minds want to know! > I think it wasn't so much that he hadn't "seen" a "qwerty" keyboard inasmuch that he wasn't "used" to one. (thus the "How Quaint" comment) Speaking of movie computers. i don't remember the name of it, might have even been some stupid movie on MST3K like "Robot Holocaust" or something but ANYWAYS... one of the scenes was a cheesy underground "lair" (not unlike a "batcave") that had a requisite mad scientist with his super computer which consisted of a giant steel box with a rectangular hole in the top of it from which peeked a VIC-20! Les From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 23:16:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970506235215.00a2bae0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Two of my favorites: > > ISTR (tho I haven't seen it since it came out) that the original Terminator > was programmed in: > > 1: Basic (Applesoft Basic, wasn't it?) > 2: 8-bit Assembly (methinks 6800/6809, but it could have been 6502... > memory fuzzy) > 3: Get this: COBOL!!!!! ;-O I haven't seen it in a while, and the text wasn't all that readable, but I could swear Terminator I had Apple ][ 6502 disassemblies scrolling through his head. > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! This is almost the same as asking why the new alien species which they just came into contact with speaks english. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue May 6 23:20:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? Message-ID: One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. I am pretty darn sure this is some PC clone because it had the requisite function keys and 2 5.25" floppy drives. The drives and monitor and CPU were all one unit (the monitor may have been detachable or just sitting on the CPU). It was labelled "Victor" and the "o" was like a multi-band colored sun (or something). Um, don't know what else to say about it. Does anyone know what this is? I was tempted to pick it up but it was priced at (I think) $40 and wasn't even going to bother haggling (this was the same guy trying to sell two VIC-20s at $25 a piece). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 7 01:05:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 6, 97 06:22:37 pm Message-ID: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970506/7dbad31c/attachment-0001.ksh From transit at primenet.com Wed May 7 00:26:44 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Speaking of computers in movies, anyone remember a late-1981(?) flick called "Evilspeak" where the nerdy kid uses his computer to cast Satanic spells (the commercial showed an Apple II with a pentagram on the screen!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net Wed May 7 00:25:47 1997 From: sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? References: Message-ID: <3370125B.7030@bellsouth.net> Sam Ismail wrote: > > One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. > I am pretty darn sure this is some PC clone because it had the requisite > function keys and 2 5.25" floppy drives. The drives and monitor and CPU > were all one unit (the monitor may have been detachable or just sitting > on the CPU). It was labelled "Victor" and the "o" was like a multi-band > colored sun (or something). Um, don't know what else to say about it. > Does anyone know what this is? I was tempted to pick it up but it was > priced at (I think) $40 and wasn't even going to bother haggling (this > was the same guy trying to sell two VIC-20s at $25 a piece). > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Hello Sam, You mean "Vector Graphics" contained S-100 cards, if yes you must grab it because they worth more than 40 bucks!!! And it vintage computer of the past. The Vector Graphics are not IBM PC compatible but using CP/M. If it printed "Victor" hmm sounds like piece of junk and worthless!!! Good luck, Steven From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 01:02:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: <3370125B.7030@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Steven J. Feinsmith wrote: > You mean "Vector Graphics" contained S-100 cards, if yes you must grab > it > because they worth more than 40 bucks!!! And it vintage computer of the > past. The Vector Graphics are not IBM PC compatible but using CP/M. If you meant "If you mean" rather than "you mean" then no, I meant "Victor". > If it printed "Victor" hmm sounds like piece of junk and worthless!!! Perhaps. It depends on what you consider worthless. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 01:00:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > Speaking of computers in movies, anyone remember a late-1981(?) flick > called "Evilspeak" where the nerdy kid uses his computer to cast > Satanic spells (the commercial showed an Apple II with a pentagram on > the screen!) Actually, one of the best (in terms of sillyness) was this movie called DemonSeed where this super-computer becomes sentient, kills its creator, then creates a metallic penis (I am NOT making this up) that it uses to impregnant the creator's wife, whom he is holding captive. She has a 30 day (or so) gestation period and gives birth to the computer's child who grows up to around age 8 or so in about 3 days. I forget what happens after that. I think the kid just babbles about some philosophical crap and the movie ends. I recommend it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 00:57:34 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > A voice-activated IMSAI? The horrible corruption of the term "hacker" > to mean "cracker", all due to the cluelessness of the screenplay > writers? War Games is/was an incredible insult to the true > switch-flipping hacker community. Look at it relative to the other hacker drivel that's made its way to the theaters since War Games. Okay, yeah, aside from the speech-recognition (forgot about that) and a couple other things, there were many instances of realism in the movie, eg. when what's-his-face (Borderick's character) shorts out the microphone on the old payphone to get a dialtone (factual, back then one had to insert a coin which shorted the tip to ground and signalled the CO to provide dialtone). Now switch to something like Sneakers. The most appalling thing about Sneakers was that they supposedly had actual computer security consultants providing the computer tech. So yeah, its real fucken believable that some guy creates a chip that breaks every conceivable encryption scheme...and oh yeah, when it decodes the info, it happens to come out as a hi-res graphic showing detailed plans/schematics/maps/etc on your screen. Sure, ok. Anyway, I don't know why I'm getting so worked up about this. Who cares. Movies with computer plots are invariably lame and an insult to techie intelligence. Probably the most realistic hacking/phreaking scenes overall was in Three Days of the Condor (or was it five days?) Anyway, never saw the whole movie but of the parts I did see I was impressed, especially when Redford was using a butt-set to tap into phone calls and all that stuff. Very real. Of course, I digress (again). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 01:40:28 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 6, 97 11:00:55 pm Message-ID: <199705070640.AAA28131@calico.litterbox.com> The computer's name was Proteus. The book from which Demonseed was made was written by a guy named Dean R. Koonts. I've been looking for a copy ever since my parents got wind of what the book was about and it disappeared one day... It's very much a psychodrama. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From pcoad at crl.com Wed May 7 01:46:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: <336D1AE4.51F1@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 May 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > I also have begun focusing on the accessories, especially if they are > mint or near it. To me a good user's manual, or a batch of original > software that is still usable is every bit as desirable as a fine old > machine. > I'll have to agree on this point. A bare machine is not as good as one which has all (or even some) of the goodies which go along with the machine. This includes manuals, price lists, advertisements, and 3rd party technical books. I've passed up several bare machines (well, C64s and C128s mostly) because they are common (gazillions were sold) and they didn't even come with a power supply or RF modulator. Then again, I wouldn't think twice about snatching up a bare PDP-(1-15), Altair, Sun 1,2,3, or any of a dozen other desirable machines. Of course I am always looking for any of the stuff that goes along with these machines. I'm not trolling here, just stating that the more very common machines are not desirable to me if they are bare. So what's the point? Preserving the machines is good, but it is only part of the picture. What is the good of preserving a machine if all of "culture" that surrounds the machine is lost? Save those manuals, flyers, ads, boxes, packing foam, and twist-ties. Save them even if you don't have a machine to go with them. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe I'll kick myself when bare C64's are selling for $10,000. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed May 7 02:47:06 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <3370337A.412B@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that resembles a real use of a computer. Face it computers on film are boring. That's why every movie computer has animated graphics and makes noises every time you do something. I worked with a guy in 3-D modeling. He learned how to spin a shaded object on the screen. Every time a (computer clueless) manager came by he'd start spinning. They were really impressed! Then after they left, he'd ask me how to make it do something else. What I really enjoy is the blank screen where you type in "find Bob Smith" and it comes back with everything about the guy including pictures, tax returns, blueprints of his house, and always that little piece of information that ties him to the crime. Where can I get one of those? I remember trying out a little accessory for my mac that caused the thing to beep every time you hit a key. just like in the movies! Drove me crazy after about 30 seconds. From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed May 7 03:29:45 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <199705070829.JAA08020@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message <199705062338.SAA11989@saucer.cc.umr.edu>you write: > > I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in > it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the > computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... > Actually the computer used in Weird Science to create Lisa was a Memotech MTX512 plus the FDX unit. I remember this because I had one. Kevan From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed May 7 04:12:14 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Help me identify a component. Message-ID: <199705070912.KAA08805@cream.motiv.co.uk> Ok, I have an old Anita 1000 calculator which I think dates from around 1967. It is all discrete components mounted on a number of seperate boards. One board has a funny spidery type component on it and I don't know what it is. You can see a picture here: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/card.jpg I have a second Anita that has three of these things on it so I really would like to know what they are. Thanks -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 7 10:19:08 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Help me identify a component. In-Reply-To: <199705070912.KAA08805@cream.motiv.co.uk>; from "Kevan Heydon" at May 07, 97 10:12 am Message-ID: <199705070919.13878@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Ok, > > I have an old Anita 1000 calculator which I think dates from around > 1967. It is all discrete components mounted on a number of seperate > boards. One board has a funny spidery type component on it and I don't > know what it is. You can see a picture here: > > http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/card.jpg It's a bit difficult to see, but it looks like a ferrite torroid with windings on it. Such things were used as pulse transformers, oscillator coils, or logic gates. > Kevan -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 06:05:39 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <9705070505.AA29237@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > A voice-activated IMSAI? It's been a while, but IIRC the IMSAI didn't do speech recognition. It did speech synthesis. It was the big blinkenlight-class Pentagon machine that did speech recognition. You're too right about War Games (and other, more recent films) giving hackers a bad name. It seems extremely unlikely to ever see a film about the adventures of a (real) hacker trying to toggle an Intercal compiler into his PDP-8. Somehow, mainstream people won't see the point. :-| --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 05:58:39 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. [...] > I was tempted to pick it up but it was > priced at (I think) $40 and wasn't even going to bother haggling (this > was the same guy trying to sell two VIC-20s at $25 a piece). That was an ACT Victor 9000, aka Sirius 9000 in Europe. It's a brilliant machine (by coincidence I saw a Sirius keyboard for sale last Sunday). 8088-based, but not PC compatible. Will run the usual OSs and the usual software. I can't remember specs of the top of my head. After the Victor/Sirius, ACT went on to design the Apricot series, with which you may be more familiar. If you need the full specs, I'll be happy to have a look for you! A. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Wed May 7 07:47:17 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Pournelle (The decline and fall of Byte) Message-ID: <9704078630.AA863015453@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> >I have read many letters here and I hope this is NOT what we are going >to continually hear - Microsoft reps patting themselves on the back >because they and the company can NEVER BE WRONG. Let's keep company >reps out if they only want to glorify the company (that basically has >the computer world in turmoil with poor quality non-innovative >software). I don't work for Microsoft, but I have had a similar run-in with Dr. Pournelle. I am a professional economist (a "Dr." too, as it happens), and in some discussion forum or other on GEnie I once quoted Milton Friedman's well-known (among economists) remark that "we're all Keynesians now." If you know the way that macroeconomic theory has converged over the past few decades, the remark makes perfect sense and doesn't detract from Friedman's status as the leader of the believers in the unfettered market. However, Pournelle was on me like a ton of bricks. He clearly _didn't_ understand what Keynesian theory was all about and thought that it just stood for government policies that he didn't like. He didn't care about references, because he "knew" that Friedman just _couldn't_ have said that, sort of like those guys who didn't bother to look into Galileo's telescope because they _knew_ the sun couldn't have spots. Eventually I just gave up on the conversation, and I suppose Pournelle thinks that he won the argument. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From zmerch at northernway.net Wed May 7 07:22:04 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: References: <3366DC4A.4141@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507082204.00a5c8b0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >> > Um... hold it... how are the 4116's arranged? You probably said, but of >> > course I can't go back into my mailbox to read that while I'm replying to >> > this one (I knew there was a reason I should my system to do this >> > locally!). If they're 16K by 4, then that certainly WOULD be more than >> > 8K. :) >> >> I think those are only 8kx1. I did look at my expandamem board and the >> chips with the plates on them had (c)Mostek written. > >Actually, I believe the quote you had in your other post said the 4116 was >16k bits... which would make my board 64K, which is too big without some >kind of bank switching scheme, isn't it? Ummmm... methinks your math might be a bit off. 16Kbits would be 2K bytes, so you'd have to have 32 chips on the board to get it to 64Kbytes... how many chips are there on the board? Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From tomph at ix6.ix.netcom.com Wed May 7 02:14:51 1997 From: tomph at ix6.ix.netcom.com (Tom Phelan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone / Heath Message-ID: <199705071302.IAA00761@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Hi All, I've been lurking for one day but had to reply to this one so I hope I'm not breaking any rules. > That was an ACT Victor 9000, aka Sirius 9000 in Europe. It's a brilliant > machine (by coincidence I saw a Sirius keyboard for sale last Sunday). > 8088-based, but not PC compatible. Will run the usual OSs and the usual > software. I can't remember specs of the top of my head. After the > Victor/Sirius, ACT went on to design the Apricot series, with which you may > be more familiar. If you need the full specs, I'll be happy to have a look > for you! Right on. The Victor 9000 was quite a system. Monochrome hi res video. Way ahead of its time IMHO. If I remember right, it was an 8086 based PC that was designed by the same fellow who designed the 6502 chip. Unfortunatly, his name escapes me. It was not IBM compatible in any way which is what really killed it. I had a classroom with 12 of those systems in it. Very reliable. Also had a variable speed 5-1/4 drive that stored more data on the outer tracks by slowing the drive down. Had about 5 different speed zones on the disk so it store 600k per disk. Quite a feat when IBM was still at the 360K density. On another note. The reason I'm here is that someone recommended I drop a line to let you all know I have a Heath Z150 PC that I built back in 1984. I also have all the manuals and schematics and two binders of Remark mag. I no longer have room for it and would like to find a good home for it. Aside from shipping charges, it's free for the taking. I'm located on Long Island in New York. Anyone interested. I'd hate to have to deep six it. Let me know Tom From scott at saskatoon.com Wed May 7 08:24:56 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone / Heath Message-ID: <199705071322.HAA15718@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> > Hi All, > > Right on. The Victor 9000 was quite a system. Monochrome hi res > video. Way ahead of its time IMHO. If I remember right, it was an > 8086 based PC that was designed by the same fellow who designed the > 6502 chip. Unfortunatly, his name escapes me. Chuck Peddle. From gram at cnct.com Wed May 7 08:30:09 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Maybe I'll kick myself when bare C64's are selling for $10,000. When that happens, it'll only be because the US is doing a Weimar and a loaf of bread will be $20,000. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Wed May 7 08:03:57 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <9704078630.AA863016432@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> On Tue, 6 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > And the 64,000 byte question: If Scotty had *never* seen a QWERTY keyboard > before in his life... how the *he!!* can he type so fast!?! > > Inquiring minds want to know! > Not to mention that he was able to quickly sketch out the formula for "transparent aluminum" using ghod knows what software. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From transit at primenet.com Wed May 7 09:52:53 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Memotech (was: Re: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705070829.JAA08020@cream.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > Actually the computer used in Weird Science to create Lisa was a > Memotech MTX512 plus the FDX unit. I remember this because I had one. Memotech! I remember reading about this computer back in 1984, and was impressed. (Remember the "Noddy" operating system?) Did any of these make it to the US? > > From transit at primenet.com Wed May 7 09:56:38 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember playing around with some Victors at the neighborhood computer store in 1981 or so. . .did they run CP/M? I also remember reading that they had a wierd disk format, and Victor wanted to control all of the software available for the machine. The article said "You couldn't even get a copy of Dbase II unless you got it through Victor". Any truth to that? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cbh at tnx.djmarkets.co.uk Wed May 7 10:25:59 1997 From: cbh at tnx.djmarkets.co.uk (Chris Hedley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: The List! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, Hope nobody minds this rather large posting, but I thought it'd provide the relevant info to plug a gap in the list. Please excuse my poor manners for not formally introducing myself - I'm sure someone will be delighted to forcefully point out to me the list's correct etiquette! On Thu, 1 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > I'm sure that just the DEC section should be three times > as long. My resources only go so far ;). Okay, just to do a spot of plagiarism :), here's a (reasonably) complete list of DEC's VMS related stuff (about half of the VAXen could also run Ultrix of one sort or another) The Alphas should probably be left off, as they can hardly be classed as `classic', but I've left them there for completeness. This obviously misses out the entire PDP range, which many people claim are much more interesting! :) Chris. "If the world was an orange it would be like much too small, y'know?" - Neil'83 Chris Hedley -- Dow Jones ltd email: cbh@tnx.djmarkets.co.uk Winchmore House, 15 Fetter Lane, 'phone: +44 171 832 9374 London EC4A 1BR, England fax: +44 171 832 9350 -- VMS CPU Model Summary (14th October 1993) ----------------------------------------- The following table summarises the whole publicly known VAX and AXP model range by CPU type, divided into processor families, and then by subtype, giving approximate chronological order. The information given has the top byte of the SID in hex (containing the CPU type), subtype (XCPU or SYSTYPE), processor ID, approximate speed (relative to a VAX-11/780, in VUPS for most machines, and SPECmark89 (S) for later workstations and Alphas), main I/O bus type (U=UNIBUS, M=MASSBUS, C=CI, Q=QBUS, B=BI, D=DSSI, X=XMI, T=Turbochannel, F=Futurebus+, S=SCSI, E=EISA), model names, and nickname. For AXPs, the ID is replaced by the clock speed in MHz. Information is from publicly available sources such as DEC brochures and press releases, together with the description of SYS$GETSYI in the VMS documentation, and from $PRDEF, $VAXDEF, and $ALPHADEF in the system macro library. This is supplemented with information from USENET group comp.os.vms. Current models are marked by a leading `*'. This list is not an official publication of Laser-Scan - ask DEC if you want confirmed figures! In the fast changing world of computer hardware, its probably out of date when written. However, please let me know of any inaccuracies or omissions. --- Paul Hardy (PGH), Chief Programmer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel: (+44) 223 420414; Fax: 420044, Email: paul@lsl.co.uk (via BRITAIN.EU.NET). VAX CPUs -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- SID | X | Id | Speed | Bus | Model Name | Nickname -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- ---- 700 series (1977) +--------+--------------------------------+-------------- 01 | - | 780 | 1.0 | U,M,C | VAX-11/780 | Star 01 | - | 780 | 1.8 | U,M,C | VAX-11/782 | Atlas 01 | - | 780 | 3.5 | U,M,C | VAX-11/784 | VAXimus 01 | - | 780 | 1.5 | U,M,C | VAX-11/785 | Superstar 02 | - | 750 | 0.6 | U,M,C | VAX-11/750 | Comet 03 | - | 730 | 0.3 | U | VAX-11/730, 725 | Nebula, LCN 04 | - | 790 | 4.0 | U,M,C | VAX 8600, | Venus 04 | - | 790 | 7.0 | U,M,C | VAX 8650 | Morningstar ---- 8000 series (1986)+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- 05 | - | 8SS | 0.9-2 | B,C | VAX 8200, 8300, 8250, 8350 | Scorpio 05 | - | 8SS | 0.9-2 | B,C | VAXstation 8000 | Lynx 06 | - | 8NN | 3 | B,C | VAX 8500 | Flounder 06 | - | 8NN | 4/6 | B,C | VAX 8530, 8550 | Skipjack 06 | - | 8NN | 6/12 | B,C | VAX 8700, 8800 | Nautilus ---- MicroVAX I (1984) - Decimal SID = 117440512 ----------------+-------------- 07 | - | UV1 | 0.3 | Q | MicroVAX I, VAXstation I | Seahorse ---- MicroVAX II series (1985) - Decimal SID = 134217728 --------+-------------- 08 | 1 | UV2 | 0.9 | Q | MicroVAX II,VAXstation II | Mayflower 08 | 1 | UV2 | 0.9 | Q | VAXstation II/GPX | Caylith 08 | 4 | 410 | 0.9 | none | MicroVAX 2000 | TeamMate 08 | 4 | 410 | 0.9 | none | VAXstation 2000 | VAXstar ---- CVAX chip series (1987) - Decimal SID = 167772160 ----------+-------------- 0A | 1 | 650 | 2.8 | Q | MicroVAX 3500, 3600 | Mayfair 0A | 1 | 65D | 2.8 | Q | VAXstation 3200, 3500 | Mayfair/GPX 0A | 1 | 640 | 2.4 | Q,D | MicroVAX 3300, 3400 | Mayfair II 0A | 1 | 655 | 3.8 | Q | MicroVAX 3800, 3900 | Mayfair III 0A | 2 | 9CC | 2.8 | X,B,C | VAX 6000 model 210 | Calypso/XCP 0A | 2 | 9CC | 3.8 | X,B,C | VAX 6000 model 310 | Calypso/XCP 0A | 3 | 60 | 3-10 | Q | VAXstation 3520, 3540 | Firefox 0A | 4 | 420 | 2.8 | S | VAXstation 3100 models 30, 40 | PVAX 0A | 4 | 420 | 2.4 | S | MicroVAX 3100 models 10, 20 | Teammate II 0A | 4 | 420 | 3.5 | S | MicroVAX 3100 models 10e, 20e | Teammate II 0A | 4 | 420 | 3.8 | S | VAXstation 3100 models 38, 48 | PVAX rev#7 * 0A | 7 | 510 | 2.4 | D | VAXft model 110 | Cirrus 0A | 7 | 520 | 3.8 | D | VAXft model 310 | Cirrus ---- Rigel chip series (1990) - Decimal SID = 184549376 ---------+-------------- 0B | 1 | 670 | 8.0 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 300 | Pele 0B | 2 | 9RR | 7-36 | X,B,C | VAX 6000 model 410-460 | Calypso/XRP 0B | 4 | 43 | 7.6 | S | VAXstation 3100 model 76 | RigelMAX ---- Aquarius series (1990) - Decimal SID = 234881024 -----------+-------------- 0E | - | 9AR |40-157 | X,B,C | VAX 9000 models 210, 410-440 | Aridus 0E | - | 9AQ |40-157 | X,B | VAX 9000 models 400-800 | Aquarius ---- Polarstar series (1988) - Decimal SID = 285212672 ----------+-------------- 11 | - | 8PS | 6-22 | B,C | VAX 8810 to 8840 | Polarstar ---- Mariah chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 301989888 --------+------------ 12 | 1 | 690 | 16 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 400 | Omega/M 12 | 2 | 1202|13-58 | XBCD | VAX 6000 model 510-560 | Calypso/XMP 12 | 4 | 46 | 12 | T,S | VAXstation 4000 model 60 | PMariah * 12 | 4 | 46 | 12 | S | MicroVAX 3100 model 80 | Waverley/M ---- NVAX chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 318767104 ----------+-------------- * 13 | 1 | 69D | 24 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 500, 500A | Omega/N * 13 | 1 |1303 | 24 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 100, 100A | Cheetah-Q * 13 | 1 | 690 | 32 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 600, 600A | Omega/N+ * 13 | 1 | 690 | 40 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 700A | Legacy 13 | 2 | 1302|32-150 | XBDC | VAX 6000 models 610-660 | Neptune * 13 | 4 |1303 | 24 | S | MicroVAX 3100 model 90 | Cheetah * 13 | 4 | 49 |32.8 S | T,S | VAXstation 4000 model 90 | Cougar * 13 | 7 | ??? | 30 | D | VAXft model 810 | Jetstream ---- SOC chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 335544320 -----------+-------------- 14 | 1 | 660 | 5.0 | Q,D | VAX 4000 model 200 | Spitfire 14 | 4 | 440 | 6.2 S | S | VAXstation 4000 VLC (model 30) | PVAX2/VLC * 14 | 4 | 440 | 5.0 | S | MicroVAX 3100 models 30, 40 | Waverley/S 14 | 7 | 550 | 6.0 | D | VAXft model 410, 610 | Cirrus II ---- NVAX+ chip series (1991) - Decimal SID = 385875968 ---------+-------------- * 17 | 3 | 1701|35-120 | X,C,D | VAX 7000 models 610-640 | Laser/Neon * 17 | 3 | 1701|35-120 | X,C,D | VAX 10000 models 610-640 | Blazer -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- Alpha AXP CPUs -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- SID | S |Clock| SPECs | Bus | Model Name | Nickname -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- ---- EV4 AXP chip series (1992) - Decimal SID = -2147483648 -----+-------------- * 80 | 2 | 180 | 135 S | F,D,S | DEC 4000 model 610 | Cobra * 80 | 2 | 190 | 150?S | F,D,S | DEC 4000 model 710 | Fang * 80 | 3 | 180 | 150 S | X,C,D | DEC 7000 model 610 | Laser/Ruby * 80 | 3 | 180 | 160 S | X,C,D | DEC 10000 model 610 | Blazer/Ruby * 80 | 4 | 150 | 126 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 500W or S | Flamingo * 80 | 4 | 200 | 180?S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 800W or S | Flamingo II * 80 | 4 | 133 | 111 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 400W or S | Sandpiper * 80 | 4 | 175 | 157 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 600W or S | Sandpiper+ * 80 | 4 | 200 | 161 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 500X | Hot Pink * 80 | 4 | 150 | 85 S | T,S | DEC 3000 model 300 | Pelican * 80 | 4 | 100 | 55 S | S | DEC 3000 model 300L | Pelica * 80 | ? | 150 | 100 S | S,E | DEC 2000 model 300, pc AXP/150 | Jensen -----+---+-----+-------+--------+--------------------------------+-------------- From dcobley at island.net Wed May 7 10:27:07 1997 From: dcobley at island.net (David Cobley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Xerox 860's available Message-ID: <199705071527.IAA30152@norm.island.net> Forwarded from comp.os.cpm:- From: schach@garnet.berkeley.edu (Linda B) Subject: Xerox 860's -- anyone interested Date: 6 May 1997 17 : 59 : 43 GMT Organization: University of California at Berkeley Have several Xerox 860 8080 CP/M computers as well as Diablo 630 printers modified to work specifically with them. They are located in Berkeley, nyone interested in them? Linda B From kevan at motiv.co.uk Wed May 7 11:01:45 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Memotech (was: Re: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705071601.RAA18229@cream.motiv.co.uk> In message you writ e: > > On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > > > > > Actually the computer used in Weird Science to create Lisa was a > > Memotech MTX512 plus the FDX unit. I remember this because I had one. > > Memotech! I remember reading about this computer back in 1984, and was > impressed. (Remember the "Noddy" operating system?) I was too. At the time we had a Video Genie but I wanted a color machine that was Z80 based. I wanted a real keyboard so that cut out the Spectrum so it was a toss up between the Lynx and the Memotech. Thankfully the Memotech won. I still have this machine, along with another my younger brother bought, and an RS128 that I picked up last year. The Noddy system was designed to allow you to create simple menu based systems. I can't remember if it allowed you to do anything of any real use as I never used it at the time. I either used BASIC plus in the inbuilt assembler/debugger or Pascal on the Highsoft Pascal ROM board I had. > Did any of these make it to the US? One must have to make the Movie. I really don't know why they choose to use this machine when there were so many US machines. I guess it could be because the graphics you see on the screen in the movie are far superior to the capabilities of the machine, and if they had used a popular US machine the audience would have seen right through it. Kevan From spc at armigeron.com Wed May 7 11:25:11 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 6, 97 03:48:37 pm Message-ID: <199705071625.MAA27919@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Kai Kaltenbach once stated: > > In the movie _Sneakers_, Ben Kingsley plays an ex-hacker who is now the > financial data processing administrator for the Mob. He has a large > complex of systems including a very Cray-like central processor and all > sorts of fancy accessories. He's extolling the virtues of mob money to > Robert Redford's character, and to illustrate his point he turns on the > Cray's terminal... lo and behold, the Cray runs Microsoft Excel! I didn't make the connection that it was the Cray's terminal; I thought it was a Window's box. Now, to turn this back to an on-topic thread, the microcomputer used in "War Games" was one of the last IMSAI's if I recall correctly. And does anyone know what computers where used for the graphics in "Tron" and "The Last Starfighter"? -spc (And Lazlo's computer in "Real Genius" looked like a Sun) From sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net Wed May 7 11:29:42 1997 From: sfeinsmi at bellsouth.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Help me identify a component. References: <199705070919.13878@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3370ADF6.15C3E54C@bellsouth.net> A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, > > > > I have an old Anita 1000 calculator which I think dates from around > > 1967. It is all discrete components mounted on a number of seperate > > boards. One board has a funny spidery type component on it and I don't > > know what it is. You can see a picture here: > > > > http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/card.jpg > > It's a bit difficult to see, but it looks like a ferrite torroid with > windings on it. Such things were used as pulse transformers, oscillator > coils, or logic gates. > > > Kevan The spidery type component showed in your picture was an integrated circuit that mounted into transistor-like physical. I believe the part number is top of the cover that hide by against the board. It could be multitransistor in one physical appearance. In early days of intergrated circuit chips tend mounted on transistor type hardware before they revised into new physical shapes as today. Steven From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 11:48:31 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071625.MAA27919@armigeron.com> from "Captain Napalm" at May 7, 97 12:25:11 pm Message-ID: <199705071648.KAA30560@calico.litterbox.com> I'm pretty sure Tron was done on a Cray of some kind. I don't know what kind of machine Last Starfighter was done on, but I'll find out. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From tomph at ix3.ix.netcom.com Wed May 7 06:29:23 1997 From: tomph at ix3.ix.netcom.com (Tom Phelan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:33 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? Message-ID: <199705071716.MAA06349@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> Hi Again, > I remember playing around with some Victors at the neighborhood computer > store in 1981 or so. . .did they run CP/M? The original lot we used ran CPM/86. As the IBM continued to grow in market share a version of MS/DOS modified specifically for the Victor was released. > I also remember reading that they had a wierd disk format, and Victor > wanted to control all of the software available for the machine. The wierd disk format came from the multi speed floppy drive and the zones. 600K on one side of a 5-1/4" disk. Not bad for it's time. > The > article said "You couldn't even get a copy of Dbase II unless you got it > through Victor". Any truth to that? Yep, due mainly to the disk format. Can't remember if there were problems with the video driver portion also. The system had a very high resolution. I once saw video being played on the screen. Looked every bit as good as a black and white TV except it was green and black. In any event, you just couldn't bring programs straight over. As far as applications went, they had Victor versions of Lotus, Supercalc, MultiPlan, Multimate, dBase II, Crosstalk, Wordstar and others. It even had a 3D spreadsheet called Victor Calc. There was talk of Victor releasing a disk drive that would read and write IBM format and an emulation board that would allow it to run IBM software. As I remember it, this board was giving them all kinds of headaches. Never really got it to work bug free or at least free enough so that users wouldn't complain. Shortly after this the company went belly up. Seems that they were will established over seas and had a good share of the market. In an attempt to migrate the system to this side of the pond they overextended themselves in the marketing department and opened up too many sales locations all over the country but the sales didn't materialze. I remember them shutting down location after location. That's about all I can remember. Hope that helps. Tom From davidv at cs.mun.ca Wed May 7 12:19:37 1997 From: davidv at cs.mun.ca (David Vincent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071648.KAA30560@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: I think that the "last starfighter" movie graphics were done on a XMP cray supercomputer. I'd love to have one these machines but the power consumptioon would probably kill me financially. ----------------------------------------------------------------- David Vincent, MUN Student davidv@ganymede.cs.mun.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 7 May 1997, Jim wrote: > I'm pretty sure Tron was done on a Cray of some kind. I don't know what kind > of machine Last Starfighter was done on, but I'll find out. > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@calico.litterbox.com > -- > By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. > Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. > The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! > By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. > > Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ > From ekman at lysator.liu.se Wed May 7 12:39:10 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Australian computers... In-Reply-To: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Kevan wrote: > I think the Microbee also originates from Australia. Correct. The Microbee is Australian. I'd love to have one of these. Is there anyone on this list who has one or used to have one? Or who knows if there are still any user groups or similar in Australia? /Fredrik From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 12:45:41 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: from "David Vincent" at May 7, 97 02:49:37 pm Message-ID: <199705071745.LAA31148@calico.litterbox.com> I asked a friend of mine who worked for the company that did the graphics for Starfighter about the computers used in the process. Her reply was as follows: > They were done on a Ramtek 2020, with the images stored and > manipulated using a VAX mainframe. There were a number of things > that people thought were models which were really images done with > the Ramtek. > As I understand it, the 2020 was capable of doing certain kinds of > transforms on the images, but that sometimes the VAX was used for > other kinds of transforms, and then the images piped back to the > 2020 for final display/debugging before going to film. > How, exactly, the images got from the VAX to film, I don't know, > I'm afraid. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From ekman at lysator.liu.se Wed May 7 12:55:41 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Victor Computer anyone? In-Reply-To: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Good choice of subject, Sam! If you had just used "yo" again, I might have missed this one. :-) > One of the things I saw at the last swap meet I was at was a Victor PC. If it said "Victor PC" and nothing else it was almost certainly a PC clone. Victor was originally an American company (later moved to Sweden) and started out making their own PCs (ie not IBM clones). Their most successful early model must have been the Victor 9000, one of the biggest wants for my collection. It was one of the first pure 16-bit PCs and featured very nice monochrome graphics. The keyboard layout is similar to a PC and it has 2 5.25" floppy drives, so this might have been what you saw. It could run both CP/M and a ported version of MS-DOS. The 9000 was marketed in Britain with the name Sirius ACT-1 or Apricot 1 or something like that. If I remember correctly the 9000 had a dark case and black keys. Later, Victor started making IBM clones, which they continued doing until AST bought them one or two years ago. Anyway, even if what you saw was a 9000 it was probably not worth $40. /Fredrik From ekman at lysator.liu.se Wed May 7 12:56:04 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Wanted: Co-Proponent for RFD rec.collecting.computers.classic In-Reply-To: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Bill, You should write a message to NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU announcing the birth of CLASSICCMP. That way, you will reach most of the people who maintain mailing list databases etc. Bill wrote: > I've been reasearching the possibility of putting old magazine articles > up on the ClassicCmp web site. What about Popular Computing? I have a note that I want to find #38, and I don't even remember why. Anyway, the idea is great! /Fredrik From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 7 19:06:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071745.LAA31148@calico.litterbox.com>; from "Jim" at May 7, 97 11:45 am Message-ID: <199705071806.22170@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I asked a friend of mine who worked for the company that did the graphics > for Starfighter about the computers used in the process. > > Her reply was as follows: > > > They were done on a Ramtek 2020, with the images stored and > > manipulated using a VAX mainframe. There were a number of things > > that people thought were models which were really images done with > > the Ramtek. I'm not familiar with that model of Ramtek, but I can talk about a couple of related things that may be of interest. The first is that Ramtek also made lower-end (and I guess cheaper) units, like the RM-9460. This used a 68000 as the main CPU, along with a couple of Z80's for I/O (serial port handling,etc) and some AMD2900 stuff for panning/zooming/window control. The basic design was roughly what you'd expect. A more interesting machine was the I2S model 70 series. I2S are/were International Imaging Systems, who split off (?) from Stanford Technology Corp. The model 70 was a work of art. The basic idea was a 'byteplane' - a raster-scanned area of memory with one byte per pixel. There were a number of these (6-12 was typical), and the outputs of each one went to 3 look up tables, which defined the RGB values for each of the 256 possible bytes. The outputs of all 'Red' lookup tables were then added together (there was a 14-input full adder board!), and the output of that went to another lookup table, and then to a DAC. Repeat all that for the other 2 colours. So far I've described an interesting graphics display, but there was more. There was a thing called the 'feedback ALU' which used 2 of the byteplanes as a 16 bit accumulator. You defined a region on the screen (using a bitplane - this region did not have to be rectangular, or even contiguous), and then defined a function (one of the standard ones provided by the 74181 ALU chip) to be used inside the region, and a different one outside. The thing then performed the function between the displayed image (I _think_ one colour at a time) and the accumulator, and put the result in the accumulator. Oh, you could shift the byteplanes arround, so that you could combine the values from neighbouring pixels. There was also a programable cursor (trackball or tablet-controlled), a histogram board, and even (on some model 75's) a hardware sequencer board (using a 2910 and some RAM) that would run a sequence of operations again and again. I don't know if one was ever used for the special effects in a film, but I'm almost _sure_ one was used to process the weather satellite pictures for the BBC television broadcasts in the UK. Oh, and if you think minicomputers are complex, try one of these. Some early model 70's used 4K DRAMs for the byteplanes. There were typically 3-6 _thousand_ RAM chips, along with a lot of TTL logic.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 7 13:33:31 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071625.MAA27919@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > ... And does > anyone know what computers where used for the graphics in "Tron" and "The > Last Starfighter"? Have to think about 'Tron', but the Cray Y-MP was credited for the graphics for 'Last Starfighter'. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 7 11:29:25 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: Greg Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] | I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that resembles a real | use of a computer. There was a pretty good, rather realistic scene in _Patriot Games_ where Harrison Ford has logged his nemesis' account and is grabbing files full of evidence, while the other guy frantically tries to delete them. _Ferris Bueller's Day Off_ has Ferris breaking into his school's system remotely and changing his grades in a fairly realistic manner. In _Under Siege 2: Dark Territory_, the hero wires into a broken pay phone with a Newton and sends an emergency fax. I had a Newton at the time, and loved this bit. And _Wargames_ was actually pretty realistic; he had the IMSAI with voice synth (probably a CompuTalker) and a demon dialer program, all of which were acceptable realism for me. Plus, at the time, we all thought Ally Sheedy was pretty cute. Kai From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Wed May 7 11:57:44 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C509DE@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: One of those portable Apple II's was in "The Man Who Fell To Earth", used by the English Language lecturer, not Bowie. Incidentally (and also certainly off-topic), in the same movie a rocket was launched (after a lengthy countdown sequence) by punching the "TALK-TO-STUDIO" button on an SSL mixing console. Strange how other things are sometimes used to simulate computers in movies - like all those huge-with-lots-of-pretty-lights mimic panels in every James Bond movie, even the later ones. They all blew up, of course, with huge showers of sparks. The best was HAL - all those perspex memory banks. -- Martin Evans From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed May 7 14:54:07 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) Message-ID: <199705071952.MAA01174@mx2.u.washington.edu> > -spc (And Lazlo's computer in "Real Genius" looked like a Sun) > > if I recall right, in real genuis, they broke into the "military" > computer using a 1200 baud modem and the follwing sequence: > > ATDT 555-1234 > CONNECT > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAA > ** Incorrect Password ** > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAB > ** Incorrect Password ** > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAC > ** Incorrect Password ** > *DISCONNECT* > > ATDT 555-1234 > CONNECT > > login: SYSTEM > password: AAAAAD > ** Incorrect Password ** > > and so on.... From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 14:42:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | From: Greg > Mast[SMTP:gmast@polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu] > | I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that > resembles a real > | use of a computer. > > There was a pretty good, rather realistic scene in _Patriot Games_ where > Harrison Ford has logged his nemesis' account and is grabbing files full > of evidence, while the other guy frantically tries to delete them. Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. > _Ferris Bueller's Day Off_ has Ferris breaking into his school's system > remotely and changing his grades in a fairly realistic manner. Hardly. Unless he was using some sort of remote control software (like PCAnywhere) or the principal was running a BBS, I don't know of a program that shows someone editing database fields in realtime. > In _Under Siege 2: Dark Territory_, the hero wires into a broken pay > phone with a Newton and sends an emergency fax. I had a Newton at the > time, and loved this bit. Hardly...er uh, wait a second. I didn't even see this, and it actually is very plausible and in fact real. > And _Wargames_ was actually pretty realistic; he had the IMSAI with > voice synth (probably a CompuTalker) and a demon dialer program, all of > which were acceptable realism for me. Plus, at the time, we all thought > Ally Sheedy was pretty cute. Yeah. Actually I still think she's cute. I wish I had a cute chick interested in me when I was a total teenage computer geek (yeah right). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 7 15:09:41 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 7, 97 12:42:05 pm Message-ID: <199705072009.OAA32024@calico.litterbox.com> I have to disagree about Ally Sheedy - Time (and perhaps her rumored extensive drug use) haven't been very kind to her. But yeah, in war games/breakfast club/Short Circuit/Saint Elmo's fire... wow. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Through beans of java thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes. The shakes become a warning - I am in control of my addiction! By Caffeine alone my mind is set in motion. Adapted from the Mentat chant of _Dune_ From gram at cnct.com Wed May 7 15:13:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Martin Evans wrote: > One of those portable Apple II's was in "The Man Who Fell To > Earth", used by the English Language lecturer, not Bowie. I find that rather hard to believe, since that movie was released in 1976. The Apple II was still being designed at the time, and IIRC the portable was quite some time later. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From spc at armigeron.com Wed May 7 15:31:15 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705071952.MAA01174@mx2.u.washington.edu> from "Matt Pritchard" at May 7, 97 02:54:07 pm Message-ID: <199705072031.QAA28826@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Matt Pritchard once stated: > > > > -spc (And Lazlo's computer in "Real Genius" looked like a Sun) > > > > if I recall right, in real genuis, they broke into the "military" > > computer using a 1200 baud modem and the follwing sequence: > > > > ATDT 555-1234 > > CONNECT > > > > login: SYSTEM > > password: AAAAAD > > ** Incorrect Password ** > > > > and so on.... The scene I was talking about was when Mitch enters the steam tunnels, follows them down to see where Lazlo lives. The computer Lazlo is using reminds me quite a bit of a Sun. -spc ("Kent, this is God ... ") From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 7 16:24:57 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > And _Wargames_ was actually pretty realistic; he had the IMSAI with > voice synth (probably a CompuTalker) and a demon dialer program, all of > which were acceptable realism for me. Reminds me of a Computer Faire that I was exhibiting at not too long after the movie released. Had my IMSAI (amongst others) displayed on the table running Processor Tech 8080 Chess on the display, and a little button on the rear of the table that, when pressed caused the IMSAI to wake up the Votrax (under the table) and ask: "would you like to play a game?" You could identify the paranoid movie goers REAL quickly! (the ones that jumped the highest or ran the fastest!) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed May 7 16:29:07 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 7 May 1997, Martin Evans wrote: > > > One of those portable Apple II's was in "The Man Who Fell To > > Earth", used by the English Language lecturer, not Bowie. > > I find that rather hard to believe, since that movie was released in > 1976. The Apple II was still being designed at the time, and IIRC the > portable was quite some time later. On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make Contact". (or did I muck the title up?) Did I miss the battery pack option somewhere??? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From groberts at mitre.org Wed May 7 19:56:29 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C6C2E0@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507205629.0082e930@postman> At 09:29 AM 5/7/97 -0700, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >_Ferris Bueller's Day Off_ has Ferris breaking into his school's system >remotely and changing his grades ... while that sounds like something Ferris Bueller would do, i think you're thinking of the early part of War Games (before he started WW III) where he logs into the school computer (password: pencil). - glenn From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 7 20:16:47 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C97E34@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> (Patriot Games) | Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off | of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. Windows? (Ferris Bueller) | Hardly. Unless he was using some sort of remote control software (like | PCAnywhere) or the principal was running a BBS, I don't know of a program | that shows someone editing database fields in realtime. Well, the bit about seeing the cursor move was dramatic license, but certainly there are numerous databases that will show dynamic updates in real time. | Actually I still think she's cute. I wish I had a cute chick | interested in me when I was a total teenage computer geek (yeah right). Well... there was the english professor's daughter, Becka... but she wasn't interested in my computer, she liked my... er... poetry. Kai From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed May 7 19:58:49 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Colmputers in Movies & T.V. References: <199705070702.AAA39720@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33712549.3E64@goldrush.com> Since I am a real fan of computers in movies and books let me try to clarify some of this stuff... Doug Spencer: >Actually, the (Apple) III was visible for a second or so in Tron, wasn't it? That's the machine in Flynn's place, he was hacking into the Encomm system with it. Later they show Flynn and Laura Sneaking through a data processing center on their way to to a terminal in Laser Bay 2. I don't know minis from mainframes, so I'll leave it at that. From: "Starling" > I recently found out that _Weird Science_ possibly has an Apple Lisa in > it and that some chick is named Lisa because she was designed on the > computer. Never seen the flick, but I think I might have to now... When the computer created girl asked for a name, Gary suggested Lisa, a girl he met in school who he had a crush on. They show what looks like an IBM clone (modular Franklin unit?) at Wyatt's house, (I like that RETURN key with the flashing lights, probably even if you had it and instructed the user to press it they still would press the wrong one.) Also shows a terminal and bank of large reel-to-reel tape units in the 'military center' they hacked into. From: "Scott Walde" > And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, though.) Yes, pretty blue and red switches, lights, with 8 inch drives. From: Sam Ismail > I thought it was simply amazing how that blind guy could figure out what > an electronic device did by simply rubbing his fingers over the > components. THAT'S INCREDIBLE! But I digress. First he ran his fingers over the box and then had the kid power it up and interface it to his braille reader, then he scanned the output through the reader. I thought that movie had good merit behind it's ideas... > I thought the most realistic computer scenes in terms of relevance to > reality were in War Games. I consider parts of it a documentary. Was a great boon for the BBS community. War dialing was well explained (and also given that name) in the film. From: "Mr. Self Destruct" > MST3k... that had a requisite mad scientist with his super > computer which consisted of a giant steel box with a rectangular hole in > the top of it from which peeked a VIC-20! Well at least someone knows a 'Super' Computer when they see one. *grin* From: Sam Ismail > This is almost the same as asking why the new alien species which they > just came into contact with speaks english. Ship's computer translates alien tongues via crew's communicators, Deep Space Nine and Voyager have been clearing that up in recent episodes. Sighting for you classic fans: Star Trek II - The Wrath of Khan: In Kirk's place, in front of the window, an original PET computer (BASIC startup screen showing) From: Tim Shoppa >> I thought the most realistic computer scenes in terms of relevance to >> reality were in War Games. > A voice-activated IMSAI? The IMSAI wasn't voice activated, it had a voice sythesiser (must be a standard issue, even the 'crystal palace' had them), which at times failed to narrate all the text being displayed on the screen. > The horrible corruption of the term "hacker" > to mean "cracker", all due to the cluelessness of the screenplay > writers? War Games is/was an incredible insult to the true > switch-flipping hacker community. I don't think the term 'hacker' was used.. They just said 'someone' or 'that kid' broke into the WOPR. No, "Hackers" was the bad press film, yuck! From: "Charles P. Hobbs" > Speaking of computers in movies, anyone remember a late-1981(?) flick > called "Evilspeak" where the nerdy kid uses his computer to cast > Satanic spells (the commercial showed an Apple II with a pentagram on > the screen!) That Apple II was in the movie too. Coopersmith used it to translate the evil texts. From: Sam Ismail > Actually, one of the best (in terms of sillyness) was this movie called > DemonSeed where this super-computer becomes sentient, kills its creator, Nope, Proteus kills a technician who came by to see why the creator's soon to be ex-wife's home automation system was malfunctioning. > [Proteus] then creates a metallic penis (I am NOT making this up) that it uses to > impregnant the creator's wife, whom he is holding captive. Sorry, the egg is removed via robot (the hand on the wheelchair), altered and then replaced. > She has a 30 day (or so) gestation period and gives birth to the computer's child who > grows up to around age 8 or so in about 3 days. I forget what happens > after that. Proteus is shut down and the incubator starts to fail, the creator helps the then 'thing' out of it, (at that point the wife freaks, as she thinks she has been majorly used by Proteous and wants to kill the 'thing'), they discover there is a shell covering the child (who has the likeness of their recently deceased daughter) They wash and carress the child as their own. > I think the kid just babbles about some philosophical crap "I live!" she says in Proteus' voice. (philosophical alright) > and the movie ends. I recommend it. So do I. "Demon Seed" along with "Colossus: the Forbin Project" and "Tron", 3 movies about computers that aren't actaully as bad as they were portrayed. All of them had noble goals in mind but the reluctance of 'change for the betterment of all' and fear of their creators lead to their eventual downfall. If any of you are into reading books or watching movies where computers play a key role (or character) check out the list I'm compiling on my web site (address below.) Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 20:54:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: realistic movie computers In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C97E34@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > (Patriot Games) > | Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the > file contents off > | of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. > > Windows? As bad as windows is, it at least does not do that ;) > (Ferris Bueller) > | Hardly. Unless he was using some sort of remote control > software (like > | PCAnywhere) or the principal was running a BBS, I don't know > of a program > | that shows someone editing database fields in realtime. > > Well, the bit about seeing the cursor move was dramatic license, but > certainly there are numerous databases that will show dynamic updates in > real time. Only if specifically programmed that way. Otherwise, if you are on a record (in read only mode) and someone is updating that information, you don't see the actual characters populating the field one by one as they are being typed. Anyway, this has gone from a simple aside to a full-blown, non-classic computer discussion. We should get back to discussing the classic computers we see in movies, rather than argue over whether what they were made to do was feasible or not. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 7 21:01:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Colmputers in Movies & T.V. In-Reply-To: <33712549.3E64@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > From: Sam Ismail > > I thought it was simply amazing how that blind guy could figure out what > > an electronic device did by simply rubbing his fingers over the > > components. THAT'S INCREDIBLE! But I digress. > > First he ran his fingers over the box and then had the kid power it up > and interface it to his braille reader, then he scanned the output > through the reader. I thought that movie had good merit behind it's > ideas... BAH! What was he reading? The voltage and current levels of each pin-out of each component on the circuit board? TTL levels of certain ICs? What? It was totally ridiculous! (Everyone's a critic.) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 7 20:47:10 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Colmputers in Movies & T.V. Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204C97E4E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | From: Larry Anderson & Diane Hare[SMTP:foxnhare@goldrush.com] | If any of you are into reading books or watching movies where | computers play a key role (or character) check out the list I'm | compiling on my web site (address below.) Try this: http://us.imdb.com/M/search_plots?for=computer Kai From mhop at snip.net Wed May 7 22:37:57 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers - Outland Message-ID: <19970508040558586.AAA140@computer-name> > I'm sorry but I can't recall a scene in any movie that resembles a real > use of a computer. Face it computers on film are boring. That's why > every movie computer has animated graphics and makes noises every time > you do something. What about the movie Outland? The Doc used a computer to analyze a dead man's blood for drugs, and the graphics were reasonably occilloscopic-like to seem realistic. Don't forget "Mother" in Alien. No graphics, just reporting the facts. mhop@snip.net From mhop at snip.net Wed May 7 22:55:08 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Wanted: magazine? Message-ID: <19970508040558586.AAB140@computer-name> > What about Popular Computing? I have a note that I want to find #38, and I > don't even remember why. You mean vol 3, number 8? June of 84? (I have been cleaning up my apt and am find lots of old stuff) mhop@snip.net From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue May 6 23:43:38 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705070106.TAA01656@wombat.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970506214338.006dd7ac@agora.rdrop.com> At 07:09 PM 5/6/97 -0600, you wrote: >> You can't forget about the PDP-8/E with DECTape drives that >> appeared in "Three Days of the Condor". > >And wasn't there an IMSAI in War Games? (It's been a long time, >though.) Yep... and what always struck me as such a hoot was that he never once turned the disk drives on! (the IMSAI drives having some rather prominent indicators on the panel) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 8 00:36:15 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: Help ID this card... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970503225046.006e92a4@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970507223615.00ee53e8@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:53 PM 5/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Sat, 3 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >> Markings on card: >> >> Xebec (now you know why I suspect a HD ctrlr) >> FCC ID CF77KL103916APPLE >> Assy 103916-04 >> Rev H-04 >> S/N 9-0733 > >Just as I suspected. Its a HD controller card alright, but for the Sider >harddrive. As far as I know, it won't work with the Profile. Hmmm... well, good news, bad news, better than no news! Thanks -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu May 8 01:00:26 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) What is it? How old is it? Les From classicjr at juno.com Thu May 8 10:37:11 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (Jeffrey G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest References: <199704090702.AAA00484@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970508.073842.5303.0.classicjr@juno.com> Bill, it looks like I will have to unsubscribe then re-subscribe again. I have not received any digest since May 1st. Can you please reply with instructions? Thanks! Jeff R. From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 08:02:51 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen > using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD > display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make > Contact". (or did I muck the title up?) Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. And apparently the idea was to use something that didn't look like it would be obsolete the week before the movie opened. The month after -- well, that's another story. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 08:07:27 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: > A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got > a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI > calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and > a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > > What is it? How old is it? I vaguely recall TI doing mag-card programmables, but I've no memory of just when or for how long. That sort of mag-card technology in hand-held programmable calculators I believe first appeared in Hewlett-Packard's HP-65 in 1973. As a starting freshman at Georgia Tech, I left a lot of drool on the display case across the street at the Engineers' Bookstore. But $795.00 was a little beyond my budget at the time, so I made do with my old 10" Pickett. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From groberts at mitre.org Thu May 8 08:09:59 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508090959.00800b40@postman> those are magnetic strips storing programs. you would read the strip in, then insert it in a special holder below the row of function keys on the calculator. you could label the strip so you remember what each function key is programmed for. HP first introduced this with the HP67 (pocket version) and HP97 (desk version) and TI followed suit with their own equivalent. This was probably vintage late 70's or early 80's? - glenn At 02:00 AM 5/8/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: >A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got >a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI >calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and >a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > >What is it? How old is it? > >Les > > > > From zmerch at northernway.net Thu May 8 08:18:28 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508091828.0098b8d0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Mr. Self Destruct said: >Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: >A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got >a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI >calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and >a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > >What is it? How old is it? > >Les Sounds like you might be talking about the TI-59 (? did the TI-58 have this capability also? I've never seen a 58). I used one in high school... really neato once you got used to TI's programming practices. It also had a 32 or 40 column thermal printer that the calculator mounted to, and then the printer served as the base. The mag strip was mainly for data storage or user-created programs, as it also had the capability to use pre-programmed ROM cartridges. They even had a cartridge of games! ISTR a football game that printed out all the team stats on the printer. A very interesting piece of hardware. Hope this helps, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 8 09:39:19 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508090959.00800b40@postman> from "Glenn Roberts" at May 8, 97 09:09:59 am Message-ID: <9705081339.AA22611@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970508/a8968d10/attachment-0001.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 8 14:51:41 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <9705081339.AA22611@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at May 8, 97 6:39 am Message-ID: <199705081351.22720@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > those are magnetic strips storing programs. you would read the strip in, > > then insert it in a special holder below the row of function keys on the > > calculator. you could label the strip so you remember what each function > > key is programmed for. HP first introduced this with the HP67 (pocket Actually, the first HP _handheld_ with a card reader was the HP65, which came out a couple of years before the HP67. I have both machines, and they're very nice :-) > > version) and HP97 (desk version) and TI followed suit with their own > > equivalent. This was probably vintage late 70's or early 80's? > > Magnetic-card programming of calculators was certainly around before > then. My HP9100, for example, has a card reader/writer (though I've > never used it - anybody have any cards compatible with this nearly > 3-decade-old classic?) I have a _few_ cards, but they're not up for grabs. I have an HP9100B (a _real_ calculator ;-) that uses them and one day I'll get round to replacing the card reader roller and using said reader again. The machine is perfect apart from that. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 8 10:40:25 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <199705081351.22720@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at May 8, 97 02:51:41 pm Message-ID: <9705081440.AA03411@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970508/5613a6ae/attachment-0001.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu May 8 10:17:02 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > On Wed, 7 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen > > using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD > > display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make > > Contact". (or did I muck the title up?) > > Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high > it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. > And apparently the idea was to use something that didn't look like it > would be obsolete the week before the movie opened. The month after -- > well, that's another story. True enough with regard to movie production budgets (and probably that Apple traded gear for screen time/credits), but it was REAL hard to sell a 'screen' that cost nearly as much as the computer in the 'real world'. B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop..com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From HamiJohn at aol.com Thu May 8 10:18:11 1997 From: HamiJohn at aol.com (HamiJohn@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: <970508105332_-97344697@emout12.mail.aol.com> Hi Les, In a message dated 97-05-08 07:54:21 EDT, you write: << Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) What is it? How old is it? >> It was either a SR-52 (1975) or TI-59 (1977). The first had a 100 step memory, the latter a 960 step memory. You could store programs and data on those tiny magnetic strips (guess they were like tiny floppies - except you turned the card around to read the second track)! Really great "micro-micro" computers. A terrific way to learn the thought process of efficient programming (once wrote a Social Security retirement program on the TI-59). What one could do when the bytes were few! John Hamilton hamijohn@aol.com "Life would be much easier if I had the source code ..." From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 8 16:39:01 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <9705081440.AA03411@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at May 8, 97 7:40 am Message-ID: <199705081539.14870@tw300.eng.cam.ac.uk> [HP9100's] > If you ever get a chance, try to determine the specifications for > the "clock track" on the card. My analysis of the circuitry led Uh-Oh... _Another_ project goes on the list.... Which reminds me. Where (in the UK, preferably) can you buy Magnasee, either as a spray-on stuff, or as one of those little bubble magnifiers? I would like to obtain some for various repair/preservation jobs. > me to believe that one of the tracks was pre-formatted at the > factory and used as the clock for reading and writing operations. What do you know about the circuitry. I think you're right, BTW, based on the info in the manual and the appropriate HP journal, but I wondered what else you knew. In fact, I think it's one clock track in each direction. I suspect the HP65/67 cards also have a clock track on them. I'm pretty sure the HP71 ones do. > I'm pretty sure I could make a card formatter if I just had one > working card to study. Should be possible. > Tim. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu May 8 11:03:38 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970508091828.0098b8d0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Sounds like you might be talking about the TI-59 (? did the TI-58 have this > capability also? I've never seen a 58). I used one in high school... really > neato once you got used to TI's programming practices. It also had a 32 or > 40 column thermal printer that the calculator mounted to, and then the > printer served as the base. > Now that I think of it, I have the printer lying around here too....somewhere... Les From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 11:08:39 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > On Thu, 8 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > On Wed, 7 May 1997, James Willing wrote: > > > On the other hand, Roy Scheider's character (Dr. Haywood Floyd) is seen > > > using an Apple IIc with the optional (and very expensive at the time) LCD > > > display while sitting on the beach in the movie "2010: The Year We Make > > Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high > > it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. > > True enough with regard to movie production budgets (and probably that > Apple traded gear for screen time/credits), but it was REAL hard to sell > a 'screen' that cost nearly as much as the computer in the 'real world'. > B^} Yah. Priced any 21" monitors lately? [I have _got_ to get me one. And a smart video/keyboard/mouse switch to cut down at least a little bit on the amount of desk surface I need. Not that this applies to any of the systems that we care about in this mailing list, except for a switch system to select which of half a dozen or more devices want channel 3 on the TV.] -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 8 12:09:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:34 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <199705081539.14870@tw300.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at May 8, 97 04:39:01 pm Message-ID: <9705081609.AA04895@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1623 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970508/f8247683/attachment-0001.ksh From frankhil at mediaport.org Thu May 8 11:27:32 1997 From: frankhil at mediaport.org (Frank Hilbrands) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970508162732.0067ed0c@mediaport.org> can someone please unsubscribe me? I'm on holliday and can't take the daily load of this list. Frank From MPritchard at ensemble.net Thu May 8 11:33:04 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: <199705081631.JAA07260@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Hi, I saw the post on the old calculator so here's mine: > A buddy of mine used to work at a Salvation Army so I got > a lot of stuff that they threw out. One was an old TI > calculator that had these strips you fed in one side and > a motor pulled them through (almost like a credit card reader) > > What is it? How old is it? > > Probably a TI-59. I recall owning a TI-58c and TI-59 calculator back > in high school. In fact, I think I still have the TI-59, books and > cards for it buried somewhere. If anyone is interested, I don't have > any desire to collect calculators. From zmerch at northernway.net Thu May 8 12:53:19 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <199705081631.JAA07260@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970508135319.00a5f340@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Matt Pritchard said: [snipperoni...] >> Probably a TI-59. I recall owning a TI-58c and TI-59 calculator back >> in high school. In fact, I think I still have the TI-59, books and >> cards for it buried somewhere. If anyone is interested, I don't have >> any desire to collect calculators. I'd be very interested... provided you don't want a million dollars for it. Lemme know what you want for it and I'll take it. To figure shipping, my zip is 49788. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Thu May 8 13:15:55 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: The List! & books involving computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970504234219.00928860@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Whilst in a self-induced trance, Steven J. Feinsmith happened to blather: > >Susan M Johnson wrote: > > >> Currently, the H/Z-100 can run 8", 5 1/4" (40 & 96 tpi), and 3 1/2" (96 > >> & 135 tpi) floppy disk drives; MFM hard drives (also RLL, although not > >> common), tape drives, and SCSI drives. CD-ROM drives are also possible. > > > >During days of H/Z-110 and 120... there are only two floppy disk drives, > >5.25" and 8". The 8" system was short lived. There was never using > >3.5 8" system short lived?? Hmm, guess there are numerous H/Z-100 users out there who don't know that :) > >but some people successful attempted this way when H/Z-100 were no > >longer > >in market. They have to write a special software included BIOS to work > >with 3.5" drive. SCSI system on H/Z-110 or 120 was very rarely. Those > >days it was called SASI. There was never using tape drive or CD-ROM > >drives > >because H/Z-110 or 120 never use with IDE or EIDE. But it can use with > >SCSI based interfaced. > > I have a few comments on what each of you said: > > Steven: Notice that Susan wrote "Currently," at the beginning of the > sentance. That means that altho the 3.5" disk drives weren't available at > the time of the machine's introduction, you can easily get any machine that > uses the standard 34-pin floppy interface to use a 3.5" disk drive. I Right, the 3.5" drive support was not part of the original Heath/Zenith design; it was provided later by some members of a user group. You can use either the 34-pin interface or the 50-pin interface to run it. (Z-100 has both interfaces, the 50-pin floppy interface being the one you also use for the 8" drives.) > Steven: Also, SASI and SCSI are *different*, SASI being the precursor of > SCSI. Altho they are *somewhat* compatible IIRC, SCSI did have extra > features that could not be used with a SASI interface. > The SCSI support wasn't part of the original design, either. An add-in board to provide that capability was designed, built, and put into production a few years ago by several members of the user group. I am now using a 170 Meg SCSI drive (not SASI) on my computer as a result. > Susan: You're sentance above is slightly misleading, however, as there were > no 96tpi 3.5" drives that I've ever heard of (and I own some *weird* ones!) > Everything from the 200K SSSD Tandy Portable Disk Drive 2 (used for Tandy's > *early* non-MSDOS laptops) right on up to the 2.88Meg ED drives are 135TPI. > > Hope this helps! > Roger "Merch" Merchber Yup, I screwed up on that. Should have said that it now supports double-density and high-density 3.5" drives. You can either use a regular MS-DOS format (720 K or 1.4 M), or a non-standard format that results in 800 K or 1.8 M disks. I've got a dual-density 3.5" drive that works great at either DD or HD, standard or non-standard formats. It is also possible to use a quad-density drive although I don't personally have one. On another matter, I think someone mentioned something about compiling a list of books/movies that involve computers. _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_ by Robert A. Heinlein involves a sentient computer who helps guide a revolution on the moon against Earth. Unfortunately, while the revolution was successful, the computer was no longer sentient at the end. :( I can't remember if the computer had a name. Susan From gram at cnct.com Thu May 8 13:51:36 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: The List! & books involving computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > On another matter, I think someone mentioned something about compiling a > list of books/movies that involve computers. _The Moon Is A Harsh > Mistress_ by Robert A. Heinlein involves a sentient computer who helps > guide a revolution on the moon against Earth. Unfortunately, while the > revolution was successful, the computer was no longer sentient at the > end. :( I can't remember if the computer had a name. Mycroft Holmes. One of my favorite books, and probably one of the two novels most influential on modern libertarianism, after Ayn Rand's _Atlas Shrugged_. For those so inclined, I heartily recommend that you web over to for the current top libertarian SF novel: _Kings of the High Frontier_ by Victor Koman. A damned good book IMAO. End of plug. Besides being a good writer, Vic is an old acquaintence. Other fiction concerning computers: _The Adolescence of P-1_ by Thomas K. Ryan. A sapient program occupies every IBM mainframe connected to teleprocessing. Seventies technology and terminology, written back then by an actual IBM jock. _The Shockwave Rider_ by John Brunner. The country is all wired and privacy is difficult except for one individual who has the "savant" ability (and a stolen identity code) to rewrite his whole record on the fly. This book introduced the world to the terms "worm" and "phage" which have since become stock vocabulary in the computer field. _The Two Faces of Tomorrow_ by James P. Hogan. Before installing artificial intelligence in the world-wide control networks, experiment with it in the "controlled" environment of a space colony. Attack it and see if it will learn to defend itself. All three books are from the late seventies and it shows. No problem, they're still good books just like a TRS-80 Mod One and an Apple II from the same period are still good computers. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Thu May 8 15:29:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: <9705081609.AA04895@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Which reminds me. Where (in the UK, preferably) can you buy Magnasee, > > either as a spray-on stuff, or as one of those little bubble magnifiers? I > > would like to obtain some for various repair/preservation jobs. > > I've never seen spray-on Magnasee. I bought a can of the > liquid stuff from DECdirect about half a year ago for US$6.00. > In the US, you can reach DECdirect by calling 1-800-DIGITAL; What's Magnasee? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From josh at netins.net Thu May 8 15:43:35 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: gonkulator Message-ID: <199705082043.PAA07138@ins1.netins.net> >Magnetic-card programming of calculators was certainly around before >then. My HP9100, for example, has a card reader/writer (though I've >never used it - anybody have any cards compatible with this nearly >3-decade-old classic?) > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) I recently sold my HP9100b. It had several cards with it, and even a program library book! Hang on to your 9100 what ever you do! I got $750 for mine, I'm sure an origional 9100 would go for a few more! It was the first desktop calculator HP made, way back in 1967-69 (somewhere around there) Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From marcw at lightside.com Thu May 8 17:59:12 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? Message-ID: <199705090131.SAA20662@covina.lightside.com> Howdy all, In our newspaper they have a little item called NO KIDDING. In it they list little trivia things. A few days ago there was one on "Now You Know" listing things that are different than history says (one was that Linbergh was actually the 67th person to fly solo across the Atlantic). Each daily listing also shows the reference in case no one believes. Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" The reason for certain names of companies/items. Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. Atari - to look like a Japanese company Does anyone know if these reasons are true? Sounds funny but then we really don't know how/why certain names are chosen. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From dastar at crl.com Thu May 8 22:46:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705090131.SAA20662@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 May 1997 marcw@lightside.com wrote: > Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" > The reason for certain names of companies/items. > > Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. > Atari - to look like a Japanese company > > Does anyone know if these reasons are true? Sounds funny but then > we really don't know how/why certain names are chosen. Rumor has it Steve Jobs was eating an Apple when they decided to name their company. I think this rumor was debunked, but the real story eludes me. I believe the one behind Atari...where the hell else would you get a name like that? I think Atari is a cool name though. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Fri May 9 02:08:23 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: TI 99 & a good weekend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <337bcce0.26389265@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >My guess is that someone peeled off the chrome veneer from the plastic >substrate . . . I don't believe there is a "plastic substrate", the metal was probably removed (easily done). _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From starling at umr.edu Fri May 9 03:19:59 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705090131.SAA20662@covina.lightside.com> from "marcw@lightside.com" at May 8, 97 05:59:12 pm Message-ID: <199705090819.DAA27909@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" > The reason for certain names of companies/items. > > Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. Heard two different stories: 1) Jobs & Wozinak sitting around in garage trying to think of a name. They agree to close their eyes and name it the first thing that they see when they open them: Apple. 2) This is the more plausible one that I think is true: Apple is named after Allan Turing. Turing, for those that don't know, was a English computer scientist that helped crack the Nazi Enigma code during WWII. He also did a lot of theoretical work in AI that set the foundation for a lot of other computer scientists (heard of the "Turing Test?"). Turing's other hobby was poisons. He enjoyed studying making and playing with poisons. Well, it also happens that Allan Turing was gay. In 1940s England, this was a federal offense. He was arrested and sentenced to forced to take the estrogen hormone to try to "fix" him. Needless to say this was unbearable and he decided to take his own life. It is said that Turing was obsessed with the story of Snow White and the poison APPLE. So he took his own life by poisoning an apple and eating it. (all this up until this point is true) Then what I've heard is that Jobs wanted to name the company in memory of Turing's apple, which would explain the bite out of the apple. > Atari - to look like a Japanese company Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly really liked Japanese culture and Go. Interestingly enough, I've also read somewhere that Steve Jobs got his job at Atari by waltzing into the CEO's office barefoot and refused to leave until he had a job. Jobs wrote the Breakout cartridge for the Atari 2600. starling From marcw at lightside.com Fri May 9 04:26:00 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? Message-ID: <199705091134.EAA25770@covina.lightside.com> > > Anyhind in today's list they had "'Why' behind the names" > > The reason for certain names of companies/items. > > > > Apple - desire to be before "Atari" in the phone book. > > apple and eating it. (all this up until this point is true) Then > what I've heard is that Jobs wanted to name the company in memory of > Turing's apple, which would explain the bite out of the apple. > I like that one. Good explanation for the bite. > > > Atari - to look like a Japanese company > > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > really liked Japanese culture and Go. > Pulled out the Japanese dictionary and the definition is close. "a hit" or "on target". For awhile I guess they were. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From william at ans.net Fri May 9 11:44:38 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705090819.DAA27909@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Message-ID: <199705091644.AA16581@interlock.ans.net> > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > really liked Japanese culture and Go. I think this is true, as the founder's second company was also named after a Go term. I forget what it is. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Fri May 9 12:38:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: <199705091644.AA16581@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > > really liked Japanese culture and Go. > > I think this is true, as the founder's second company was also named > after a Go term. I forget what it is. I think the rough translation is "Go out of business (again)". Har har. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri May 9 14:43:53 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers Message-ID: Just a quickie.... Have any of you guys ever made your own computers? This is someting I have been thinking of doing but really don't know where to start. It doesn't have to be fancy (something with a 8088 or Z80 or 6502 would be fine) So does anyone have any "plans" to make one? Thanks Les From mhop at snip.net Fri May 9 14:45:31 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <19970509195435135.AAA133@computer-name> > can someone please unsubscribe me? I'm on holliday and can't take the daily > load of this list. > > Frank I don't think anyone can. I think it has to come from your account. Mail to listserv@u.washington.edu From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 01:36:45 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help Message-ID: I have an Osbourne Executive that is in fairly decent shape and for the most part works fine. There's no burn-in on the CRT and both floppies work great, but there seems to be a problem with the power supply or the video system. The system boots fine, but once it has booted, the image on the screen begins to jump or shimmer, and you can hear the fan on the rear of the machine appear to change speeds, as if there was a power fluctuation. I would really like to find out what's wrong with this machine, and repair it if possible, and am hesitant to run it the way it is. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 01:55:17 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 07-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >So what's the point? Preserving the machines is good, but it is only >part of the picture. What is the good of preserving a machine if all >of "culture" that surrounds the machine is lost? Agreed, which is why my more common systems, such as the Atari 800 and Vic-20 are fairly filled out with peripherals and such. Take for example my VIC-20..it has the following: VIC-20 boxed, VIC-1541 floppy, VIC-Modem, VIC-1525 printer, C2N Datasette, manuals for the VIC-Modem anad 1541, as well as 9 cartidges and about 6 original cassette tapes of programs, including one tape still in it's packaging. This to me is quite a well rounded system, much like one would find someone using on a daily basis. Unfortunately, for some of my systems, such as the Aquarius, it's not so easy to find the software and such for it. But I definately pay at least as much attention to searching out the add-ons as I do the systems themselves. In fact, at this point, my attention is likely to turn mostly to the add-ons and such, as I've aquired the more common systems I've sought and likely won't be aquring them as a whole as often. >Save those manuals, flyers, ads, boxes, packing foam, and twist-ties. >Save them even if you don't have a machine to go with them. One thing I always noticed about people into antique and classic cars is that a lot of them also search out the advertisements and such for thier favorite marque. It'd certainly be interesting to do such a thing for the computers as well. Too bad I tossed out all of my older magazines years ago. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 02:02:30 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems Message-ID: A week or so ago, I recall seeing a post concerning questions about Kaypro and thier being called by which name. Unfortunately, I didn't respond to it as I wanted at the time, and procrastinated so long that now I can't find the original post! But to put my 2cents worth in, on my Kaypro 2X, it still states it was manufactured by Kaypro Corporation, of Solana Beach, CA. Since the company had yet to change names when the 2X was manufactured, would that indicate that it fell before the Kaypro II in the production cycle? If I recall, the II was labeled as coming from Non-Linear Systems? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 9 17:53:09 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at May 9, 97 11:55:17 am Message-ID: <9705092153.AA20915@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970509/900ca04a/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 02:40:11 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Well, as long as we're bragging about out systems, >on my PC I have the following hardware: Actually Tim, I wasn't bragging at all. I was just outlining the system to help illustrate the point being made. Most of my posts to this list tend to be questions since I don't have anywhere near the knowledge that you or Sam or many others seem to, since most of my 8bit experience was with the Timex-Sinclair 1000 and a cassette-based TRS-80 Model III. In fact, it was a full 5 years after getting the T/S-1000 in 1982 before I was able to afford a better system, and it ended up being a Tandy 1000HX in 1987. My interest in these systems is from the standpoint that I'm finally getting the chance to fool with ones I kept reading about, but was never able to buy or use. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From mhop at snip.net Fri May 9 17:41:00 1997 From: mhop at snip.net (mhop) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <19970509224337870.AAA181@computer-name> > I don't think anyone can. I think it has to come from your account. Mail to > listserv@u.washington.edu Oops. It's listproc@u.washington.edu I think that is the first time I ever quoted my own message. :) mhop@snip.net From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 9 17:35:32 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Just a quickie.... > Have any of you guys ever made your own computers? > > This is someting I have been thinking of doing but really don't know where > to start. It doesn't have to be fancy (something with a 8088 or Z80 or > 6502 would be fine) So does anyone have any "plans" to make one? > I've been thinking about this as well. I did a some searching last year and came up with a few kits for sale, and a few sites with build your own computer information. Are you planning on building from scratch, from plans, or kit? The kit toward which I am currently leaning is the Southern Cross 1. It is a Z80 based SBC kit. Further information can be found at: http://kitsrus.com/sx.html#sx2 Another project which looks interesting is the "MC68030 Workstation Project". More information at: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/cyliax/ws030%2ehtml Non-online sources of kits are "Circuit Cellar Ink" and "Nuts and Volts" magazines. Both of these contain ads for kits and trainers. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 9 18:53:43 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: from "hellige" at May 9, 97 12:40:11 pm Message-ID: <9705092253.AA30999@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970509/cfd124e7/attachment-0001.ksh From josh at netins.net Fri May 9 19:14:06 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? Message-ID: <199705100013.TAA07128@ins1.netins.net> I have an origional Apple IIC owners guide, under the "Ask Apple" Section, there is a question that says: "How did Apple get it's name?" The answer: (Taken from the Apple IIC book, Apple Presents the Apple IIC, An Interactive Owner's Guide.) "The name Apple Computer was chosen late one afternoon as Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, Apple's founders faced the deadline for filing a Fictitious Name Statement, part of the business licensing procedures. After volleying names back and forth with Wozniak for hours, Jobs looked at the apple he was eating and decided that, unless he or Woz arrived at something better by five o'clock, they would call the company Apple. Five o'clock came and went; Apple was the new company's name." This could be true, or not. Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From transit at primenet.com Fri May 9 20:17:48 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Origin of company names Apple & Atari - verify? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Atari is in fact a Japanese word. I forget what it means, but it's the > > > equivalent of "checkmate" in the game of Go. Founder of Atari allegedly > > > really liked Japanese culture and Go. > > > > I think this is true, as the founder's second company was also named > > after a Go term. I forget what it is. > > I think the rough translation is "Go out of business (again)". The second company's name was "Sente", and it made a couple of unnoteworthy video games, if I recall correctly. . . From dastar at crl.com Fri May 9 20:09:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, hellige wrote: > >Save those manuals, flyers, ads, boxes, packing foam, and twist-ties. > >Save them even if you don't have a machine to go with them. > > One thing I always noticed about people into antique and classic cars is > that a lot of them also search out the advertisements and such for thier > favorite marque. It'd certainly be interesting to do such a thing for the > computers as well. Too bad I tossed out all of my older magazines years ago. I'd better go check on my collections of Byte, Nibble and Personal Computing. They've been tucked away in my parents' barn for years now. I wonder if the rats go to them yet? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 20:29:38 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo Message-ID: <199705100129.SAA05893@mx5.u.washington.edu> At 06:57 PM 5/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, the incredible rate of obsolesence in computers lets us own >stuff that only a major company or a small government would've been >able to buy 10 years ago. For example, list price on the hardware >in my Personal vaxCluster would've been over half a million dollars >when new. But I've picked it all up at auctions for a couple hundred >dollars. I remember going into the local Radio Shack and drooling over the different TRS-80 models nearly constantly in the period between 1982 and 1987, seeing as those were the systems which I had easiest access too. I wanted a Model 4P quite badly at the time, but I didn't make enough with my job for them to even think about financing me on it. I entered the military in 1983 so didn't make too much. Also, the Model III was the first micro of any type I got to use, since it was what our computer lab in high school (circa 1981-2) used. >On microcomputer prices, here's some prices from the back of an >August 1982 BYTE that I just happen to have on my desk here: >Morrow designs 5 Mbyte hard disk S-100 subsystem $1975 If I remember correctly, didn't IBM originally charge close to $5000 for it's hard disk system for the original PC-XT's? >Tandon TM100-2 5.25" FH DSDD 360K floppy drive $ 325 The Indus-GT floppy for my Atari 800 was another 5-1/4" drive that was in the $300-400 price range. Nifty drive though, and I think I have close to a dozen different DOS's to boot it from. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat May 10 00:03:03 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: gonkulator In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 8, 97 01:29:11 pm Message-ID: <9705100403.AA14054@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970509/df56f2f5/attachment-0001.ksh From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Sat May 10 09:58:37 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: WTB: Wordstar 3.31 Message-ID: <199705101458.JAA00457@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I am looking for an original set of Wordstar 3.31 (running under DOS) disks with correctstar and mailmerge. I specifically need the printer support for a HP laserjet printer. Please email me with particulars, including price. Thanks. John Ott jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From gpine at popmail.mcs.net Sat May 10 10:25:18 1997 From: gpine at popmail.mcs.net (Gerald D. Pine) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help Message-ID: <199705101525.KAA03189@Mailbox.mcs.com> At 11:36 AM 5/9/97 +0500, you wrote: > I have an Osbourne Executive that is in fairly decent shape and for the >most part works fine. There's no burn-in on the CRT and both floppies work >great, but there seems to be a problem with the power supply or the video >system. > > The system boots fine, but once it has booted, the image on the screen >begins to jump or shimmer, and you can hear the fan on the rear of the machine >appear to change speeds, as if there was a power fluctuation. > > I would really like to find out what's wrong with this machine, and repair >it if possible, and am hesitant to run it the way it is. Any help would be >greatly appreciated. Thanks. > Jeff, I had (and still have to some extent) the same problem on my Executive. I managed to mitigate the problem somewhat by replacing the 12 volt muffin fan with a 117 volt fan in order to reduce the load on the power supply. The shimmering was reduced, but not eliminated. Gerald > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com >-- >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of classic home computers: > > Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore > C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive > Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, > TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and > 2600VCS game consoles. > > > > > From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sat May 10 12:13:20 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > I've been thinking about this as well. I did a some searching last year > and came up with a few kits for sale, and a few sites with build your > own computer information. Are you planning on building from scratch, > from plans, or kit? > I wanted to build from scratch (i.e with Radio Shack/Jameco/scraps and pieces, etc.) Nothing big, just something small, with maybe a floppy and a serial port for a terminal. > The kit toward which I am currently leaning is the Southern Cross 1. > It is a Z80 based SBC kit. Further information can be found at: > > http://kitsrus.com/sx.html#sx2 > hmmmm, maybe Ill check that one out! Thanks, Les From danjo at xnet.com Sat May 10 14:39:41 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > On Fri, 9 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > I've been thinking about this as well. I did a some searching last year > > and came up with a few kits for sale, and a few sites with build your > > own computer information. Are you planning on building from scratch, > > from plans, or kit? > > > > I wanted to build from scratch (i.e with Radio Shack/Jameco/scraps and > pieces, etc.) > > Nothing big, just something small, with maybe a floppy and a serial port > for a terminal. > > > The kit toward which I am currently leaning is the Southern Cross 1. > > It is a Z80 based SBC kit. Further information can be found at: > > > > http://kitsrus.com/sx.html#sx2 > > hmmmm, maybe Ill check that one out! > > Les Hey, so have I! I want to build a 6502 because 1. I already have a KIM and a SYM board 8-) for debugging. 2. I know the 6502 pretty well. 3. I have a 6502 Assembler wtih macro and structure support. 4. I have a 6502 Run/Single step emulator with programmable hardware emulator. 5. It is an extrememly easy processor to interface with. 3 and 4 ain't fast but they do work 8-) on almost everything. I think 5 is the most important. The same can be said for all the old 8-bitters tho. For what you want, I would suggest a 6502, xtal, a couple of resistors and caps, a 6522, 2-32K Static RAM chips and 1-32k EPROM. Since the 6502 is memory mapped IO, you would lose the memory wherever you put the IO page but with a 74688? you could map any single or multiple 256 byte hunks to IO real easy. My original thought was to use the reset line to switch the ROM in and out of memory space so boot up would be to copy ROM to the lower 32k and then recopy it to the upper 32k after the RAM is switched back in. I think this is pretty standard stuff. I have even thought (a little) about using PICs for IO devices and letting them use IIC (I2C) to talk out one serial port to multiple devices. This would be for the serial devices only, I would probably keep the 6522s for parallel stuff (disk drives). Xebec used to make a Hard Drive controller that would talk to any computer with an 8bit parallel device - don't know IDE drives but I remember reading several companies do that for *newer* computers. The problem being raw speed. BC From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 20:55:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >I had (and still have to some extent) the same problem on my Executive. I >managed >to mitigate the problem somewhat by replacing the 12 volt muffin fan with a >117 volt >fan in order to reduce the load on the power supply. The shimmering was >reduced, but >not eliminated. Gerald, Then would you say the power supply is getting weak? It looks like the fan in the back is a standard enough part...in fact, there's room there for a larger one, as the one installed isn't even as large as the grill opening. I'll try that though and see what happens. Thanks for the tip. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Fri May 9 21:01:24 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Just a quickie.... >Have any of you guys ever made your own computers? >This is someting I have been thinking of doing but really don't know where >to start. It doesn't have to be fancy (something with a 8088 or Z80 or >6502 would be fine) So does anyone have any "plans" to make one? There was a book published in the early to mid 80's sometime which went into quite exact detail on designing and building an 8bit microcomputer, using the Z80 I believe. Unfortunately, I don't recall the exact name, and my copy of it was lost years ago. I believe it was something like "Building Your Own Microcomputer" and I thought it was a fascinating book. Anyone else recall this book? Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Sat May 10 18:12:48 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Kaypro Corp. or Non-Linear Systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705102312.SAA03916@fudge.uchicago.edu> jeffh@eleventh.com says, > But to put my 2cents worth in, on my Kaypro 2X, it still states it was > manufactured by Kaypro Corporation, of Solana Beach, CA. Since the company > had yet to change names when the 2X was manufactured, would that indicate that > it fell before the Kaypro II in the production cycle? If I recall, the II was > labeled as coming from Non-Linear Systems? I think you've got the order backwards -- the company started out as Non-Linear Systems and changed their name to Kaypro once the Kaypros started getting popular. eric From starling at umr.edu Sat May 10 18:23:26 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: WTB: Wordstar 3.31 In-Reply-To: <199705101458.JAA00457@mastif.ee.nd.edu> from "John Ott" at May 10, 97 09:58:37 am Message-ID: <199705102323.SAA24649@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > I am looking for an original set of Wordstar 3.31 (running under DOS) disks > with correctstar and mailmerge. I specifically need the printer support for > a HP laserjet printer. > Hey... Somewhere at home in Texas I have an old Wordstar original package & disks. I'll have to check on it when I go home after school is over to see what version it is. I'm MOSTLY sure that it's a DOS version, but for some reason the version number 2 sticks out in my head. I might be wrong, though.... however I do believe that it's on 5.25" floppies. Mail me back in like 2 weeks and remind me to check on this for you. I tend to forget things easily, so a reminder would make sure I checked on this for you... chris starling From gpine at gri.org Sat May 10 19:57:57 1997 From: gpine at gri.org (Gerald D. PIne) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Osbourne Executive help References: Message-ID: <33751995.49A8@gri.org> hellige wrote: > > On 10-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > >I had (and still have to some extent) the same problem on my Executive. I > >managed > >to mitigate the problem somewhat by replacing the 12 volt muffin fan with a > >117 volt > >fan in order to reduce the load on the power supply. The shimmering was > >reduced, but > >not eliminated. > > Gerald, > > Then would you say the power supply is getting weak? It looks like the fan > in the back is a standard enough part...in fact, there's room there for a > larger one, as the one installed isn't even as large as the grill opening. > I'll try that though and see what happens. Thanks for the tip. > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Collector of classic home computers: > > Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore > C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive > Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, > TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and > 2600VCS game consoles. Jeff, I think that the design using a 12V fan was just a bad idea. It put a load on the power supply that need not be there. I think that the problem was inherent in the Executive design. Gerald From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat May 10 21:21:42 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific, anyone? Message-ID: <970510222141_1686622792@emout12.mail.aol.com> I thought i'd post about a machine which certainly qualifies to be classic, an ohio scientific challenger C1P of which i know nothing about. i did get some extensive documentation with it including a presale brochure, some photocopied machine language programs, the original reciept dated 20jun1980 for $425, some info about a d&n micro card which i also got, instructions for eprom burner software, basic ref manual, and some highly technical info and board schematics. i also have several cassette tapes of software including an original adventure 0 copyright 1979 for a 24k apple and asteroids also. i also got several boards that i dont know about included. one seems to be a floppy controller and ram card from d&n micro products, two of them say osi model 502 and 527 and some others i cannot tell what they are. they all have circuit traces some missing some sockets and all are mising components so it seems like its part of a kit. anyone know about this model? it seems to be apple ][ compatible, but i havent bothered turning it on yet. heh, would be neat to find a floppy drive for it... david From starling at umr.edu Sat May 10 21:59:03 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific, anyone? In-Reply-To: <970510222141_1686622792@emout12.mail.aol.com> from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at May 10, 97 10:21:42 pm Message-ID: <199705110259.VAA17195@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Woo-hoo!! I also have some OSI equipment... LOTS of it, in fact. However, it's all in Texas and I'm in Missouri. But the good part is that I also have a lot of documentation (boxes and boxes of it) and lotsa 8" floppies that presumably go to it. However... I have only tried turning on one of the 3 machines (a C4 I think?) and it's floppy drive was hosed. This is a little desktop unit that has keyboard built in and has WOODEN sides. The other two are rackmount machines that are heavy and ugly. I haven't tried turning them on because they required a dumb terminal to see any output on them. My plan is to graduate from College in a year and then after settled in a job (and home with lotsa storage space), start restoring them. And in the process make a web page consisting of all the documentation I have on the beast. However, I'm afraid that in the mean time I can't directly help you very much. I can say, however, with a good deal of certainty that the OSI C1P is _NOT_ Apple II compatable, although it probably does have a 6502 in it. As far as I know, all OSI equipment ran CP/M or a kind of multi-user CP/M. I have an OSI 8-something or another that was built to be a multiuser system (like 2-8 users) with multiple processors (mixed Z80s and 6502s). Mine only has one 6502 in it. Maybe I'll grab some of the OSI documentation when I go home to Texas at in 2 weeks and start the webpage. However, my summer project is to restore my Apple Lisa & document it. Anyone be able to help me on this? :) I guess if you have any specific questions/needs regarding the OSI stuff, I see what I can do... good luck with it! It's a nifty machine. There are a few other OSI owners on the net I've talked to, including a guy somewhere in {Washington|Oregon|California} that uses his C4P Challenger to control lights & stuff at a planetarium. The C4P was a hacker's dream because it had lotsa serial, parallel, outputs plus a "experimenter's port" which was actually like an external connection to the data bus I believe. It also had sound and color graphics that allegedly rivaled the Apple II in its time (perhaps before its time). Like I said... good luck with it! I'll help out as I can, but all my OSI stuff is in Texas. chris starling From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Sat May 10 22:41:37 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: WTB: Wordstar 3.31 In-Reply-To: <199705101458.JAA00457@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, John Ott wrote: > Hello - > > I am looking for an original set of Wordstar 3.31 (running under DOS) disks > with correctstar and mailmerge. I specifically need the printer support for > a HP laserjet printer. > > Please email me with particulars, including price. > > Thanks. > > John Ott > jott@saturn.ee.nd.edu > I could send you a copy my original disks for WordStar, but I don't have my manuals with me, although in a couple of weeks I would be able to make photocopies of them. Whether it would work on your computer I don't know. My version is for a Zenith Z-100, MS-DOS. I don't have correctstar and mailmerge, though. As for supporting the HP Laserjet, you would have to use the generic printer driver or write your own. WS 3.3 came out way before the HP Laserjet. If you need a CP/M version of WS, I could get a copy of that also, but again it would be a couple of weeks. Either way, no charge other than photocopy costs for the manual and postage. Susan From sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU Sat May 10 22:57:07 1997 From: sjohnson at GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Susan M Johnson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, hellige wrote: > > There was a book published in the early to mid 80's sometime which went > into quite exact detail on designing and building an 8bit microcomputer, using > the Z80 I believe. Unfortunately, I don't recall the exact name, and my copy > of it was lost years ago. I believe it was something like "Building Your Own > Microcomputer" and I thought it was a fascinating book. Anyone else recall > this book? > > Jeff jeffh@eleventh.co Yes, I believe it was published by TAD Books although I don't remeber the exact title, either. It was available at my local library. At the time I read it, I think I estimated it would cost about $1,000 altogether to build the computer. It would probably be a lot cheaper today. Seemed like a very good boook. Susan From pcoad at crl.com Sun May 11 00:11:49 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, Susan M Johnson wrote: > Yes, I believe it was published by TAD Books although I don't remeber the > exact title, either. It was available at my local library. At the time I > read it, I think I estimated it would cost about $1,000 altogether to > build the computer. It would probably be a lot cheaper today. Seemed > like a very good boook. > > Susan > TAB books published a few on how to build a microcomputer: "How to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" by Charles K. Adams "How To Design, Build & Program your Own Working Computer System" by Rovert P. Haviland. "How To Design, Build & Program your Own _Advanced_ Working Computer System" by Rovert P. Haviland) "The 8088 Project Book" by Robert Grossblatt. ISBN 0-8306-0271-1 The first one describes how to build an 8K 8080 based machine while the second one describes how to build a computer based on the SC/MP chip. (I have not seen this book, but I have a copy of the follow-on book.) There was also a book written by Steve Ciarcia titled "Build Your Own Z-80 Computer". This one has been recommended highly. The last I heard it was still in print. (ISBN 0-07-010962-1). A quick look through the alt.comp.cardware.howmebuilt FAQ produced a few more: - "Z-80 Microcomputer Design Projects" by William Barden Jr. ISBN 0-672-21682-5, published by Howard W. Sams & Co. Inc - "The Z80 Microcomputer Handbook" William Barden, Jr, The A.C.H.H FAQ can be found at: http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~msokos1/home19.faq The Adams book seems like it was a rush job. There are quite a few error and a few omissions in the book which should have been caught by a proof reader. Tangent: Did TAB books just crank out books during the 80s? I haven't been able to find a complete list of TAB books, but they cover the range from "33 Challenging Computer Games for TRS-80/Apple/Pet" (total crap) to "The Handbook of Microcomputer Interfacing" (very good). --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From KFergason at aol.com Sun May 11 01:03:58 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers Message-ID: <970511020357_1222408121@emout18.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-11 00:09:18 EDT, you write: << Yes, I believe it was published by TAD Books although I don't remeber the exact title, either. It was available at my local library. At the time I read it, I think I estimated it would cost about $1,000 altogether to build the computer. It would probably be a lot cheaper today. Seemed like a very good boook. >> Z-80 Microcomputer Design Projects, William Barden, Jr. $14.95, Howard Sams. published in 1980. describes a <10 chip single board computer. how much was a Z80 in 1980? KiloBaud Klassroom. by Peter Stark. describes a 6802 single board computer. seems like mostly reprints from the magazine column of the same name. 1982 The 8085 Cookbook. Build your own working computer. Tab books. uses the SC/MP. Build your own advanced computer. Tab books. uses the 9900, i believe. The Bugbooks. I can probably dig out several more which describe a single board system. None get into things such as disk drives, not that I recall anyway. Kelly From BigLouS at aol.com Sun May 11 10:20:34 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:35 2005 Subject: Help Identify Machine Message-ID: <970511112033_-331947021@emout12.mail.aol.com> While prowling around a new thrift store today I came across what may be a computer or it may be a word processor. It had a keyboard, monitor and two 5 1/4" floppies housed in one unit with the floppies mounted vertically and to the right of the monitor, which I estimate was about 12"". The front of the unit was marked GBV( hope I remembered that correctly ) System 9. Does anyone know what it is? I checked the copy of THE LIST that I have and didn't find it. Thanks, Lou From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun May 11 14:46:01 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... Message-ID: Wow. I didn't intend to buy any computer equipment this weekend but ended up passing a church swap meet with a big sign that list "compters" on it. Later in the day I spotted a pawn shop that had a sign up that said "Collectable PCs - get them while you still can!" Just how much temptation can one resist? Anyway I'll divide this into two groups - stuff I know things about already and stuff I don't have a clue about. Stuff I know about TI/99 Expansion box with disk/memory/rs232 Atari 520ST Commodore 128 (spare) Commodore Cassette (original) Macintosh (M0001) DEC Rainbow 100 Documentation in box DEC Rainbow OS disks Samda Word Processor for DEC Rainbow 25 RX50 disks labelled MICRO/RSTS - I don't knwo what they are but I'm guessing they're not for the Rainbow. I really needed some RX50 disks though. 34 C64/128 disks with programs 18 Apple II disks with programs FORTRAN on disk for the TI99/4A (the first disks I've ever seen for the TI) EagleWriter II for the Eagle Computer 12 Assorted CP/M disks 17 8" TRS-80 Model II disks Set of OS disks for Heath/Zenith Z-100 VisiCalc and a couple other Atari 800 disks Various old PC disks Some power supplies and RF modulators Hardware Maint manual for Novell Netware/68 (includes info and schematics for almost all early novell hardware!) Stuff I don't know about IBM 6360 dual 8" floppy system (for what?) TRS-80 TRP-100 printer TRS-80 Color Graphics Printer Commodore DPS-1101 Printer Alphacom VP-42 Printer (for VIC-20 only it says) NEC PC8801A (no keybd, disk drives) Excelerator Plus Disk Drive (looks like for commodore serial bus) MicroSci Disk Drive (Disk II clone, right?) Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) TRS-80 RAM module (looks like the T-S RAM module) It was a fun weekend (glad I drive a van!) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From ekman at lysator.liu.se Sun May 11 15:01:41 1997 From: ekman at lysator.liu.se (Fredrik Ekman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: movie computers (The List! ) In-Reply-To: <199705080702.AAA08514@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Captain Napalm wrote thus: > Now, to turn this back to an on-topic thread, the microcomputer used in > "War Games" was one of the last IMSAI's if I recall correctly. And does > anyone know what computers where used for the graphics in "Tron" and "The > Last Starfighter"? Tron was animated by hand. No computers were used, except where you actually see them on the screen. Since I am writing, I thought I might contribute this little piece to the thread: I watched a German soap opera about ten years ago. It was about some hospital and they had a computer, for storing the patient records, I assume. It was a C64, which would not have been impossible at the time, only someone obviously thought it didn't look cool enough just sitting there by itself, so they built it into a wooden panel and added some flashing lights and buttons. /Fredrik From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat May 10 17:03:56 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: Bill, That's quite a haul you made this weekend. I've never been lucky enough to come across so much at once. Normally it's a couple of items at the most. >Macintosh (M0001) Lucky you! >FORTRAN on disk for the TI99/4A (the first disks I've ever seen for > the TI) I've got a bunch of disks for the TI that I was sent, though they tend to be GROMs saved to disk. >Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) > (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) Normally, the 16k RAM pack says what it is on it, though I guess a RAM module from a third party might not. The T/S-1000 RAM pack was about 3" wide x 3" high x 1-1/2" deep. I've seen third party RAM packs up to 64k, but they tended to be the full width of the computer. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun May 11 16:49:33 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: BYTE (was: Re: PET to S100 bus interface) In-Reply-To: <199705062028.QAA24968@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Doug Spence once stated: > > > > BTW, is it possible to purchase complete collections of BYTE magazine on > > Microfiche, etc? And for what kind of frightening sum? I'm afraid I > > don't have a collection of those... only a single magazine from 1982, then > > my next issue features the Amiga 3000. :/ > > Maybe. But be wary of getting a complete collection though. While I > haven't read a Byte magazine in several years, (since the early 90s), those > that I have seen I tend to group into three catagories: > > > 1. Hobby Era (start of publication to late 83/early 84) This would be the era I'd be interested in. Thanks for pointing that out. The one really good one I have is from this era (November, 1982). BTW, for the person that was interested in the Victor 9000, there's a review of that machine in the above-mentioned issue, and an interview with Chuck Peddle. > 2. Journal Era (early 84 to late 87/early 88) This might also be interesting, but not terribly useful for my purposes. I don't think I'd bother with this era. > 3. PC Rag Era (early 88 through the 90s) Yuck. > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the > cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. Who do I have to kill for a copy of that issue? ;) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun May 11 17:11:16 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: Replies to stuff... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970507082204.00a5c8b0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: How did you know about that? (I had just finished exams and was still groggy. Three exams in three days. :/ ) > >Actually, I believe the quote you had in your other post said the 4116 was > >16k bits... which would make my board 64K, which is too big without some > >kind of bank switching scheme, isn't it? > > Ummmm... methinks your math might be a bit off. 16Kbits would be 2K bytes, > so you'd have to have 32 chips on the board to get it to 64Kbytes... how > many chips are there on the board? Yup, you're absolutely right. (Duh!) There are 16 chips on the board. So that should put my PET 2001 up to 40K (8+32=40, right? ;) ) if I ever get the board working. > Hope this helps, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun May 11 17:21:41 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: Jay Miner, Sinclair (was Re: yo) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 May 1997, hellige wrote: [About Jay Miner] > No, he didn't influence a whole 'generation' of computer hobbyist the way > CP/M did and such, but he certainly did some interesting things with the > hardware! Unfortunately, another computer great that has since passed away. Shortly after Commodore 'passed on' IIRC. July 1994? Astronomy magazine prints these calendars on which important discoveries, launches and the like are printed. I wonder if anyone would buy a similar thing with important computer dates on it. > Sir Clive Sinclair on the other hand gave us the Sinclair series, so he > couldn't be all bad. Oddly enough, the only Sinclair machines I've ever seen have been in pieces. The ZX81 was the first computer I wanted to buy, though... because it was the only computer I could AFFORD to buy, and my brother's PET was soooo cool that I needed to have a computer of my own. Never did get that ZX81. Ended up talking my father into an Apple ][+ clone instead. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From foxnhare at goldrush.com Sun May 11 21:21:37 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: Stuff I found, BYTE, collecting, TRON info, Ohio Scientific, etc. Message-ID: <33767EB2.2F57@goldrush.com> Serves me right for not keeping on top of the list now I have to scan back a few issues and reply to stuff.. :/ But first off I'll add to the 'what I got' discussion: 2 more Atari 800s (folks must be really unloading them, these were $6.00, nut it was Sat, so 1/2 price) both seem to work, GTIA and 48k, no carts in the cart slots though, and (sigh) no power suppllies to be found either. Another place, nine Atari cartridges (no computers to be seen at the store though), all 25 cents each except for the Star Trek S.O.S. which was 45 cents (Not really enthused about it even on the Atari.) But I did get Star Raiders, (yea!) I played the game only once or twice umpteen years back, and it still holds the appeal. Others are Computer Chess, Atari Basic (Rev A), Missile Command (was really impressed by the translation to 8-bit on this), Super Breakout (now, where are all my paddle controllers...), Pac Man, Space Invaders, and Centipede. Makes time fly faster when you don't have a disk drive running (or disks). Been passing up an Exidy Sorceror (checking the net it seems information on it is pretty hard to come by.) $5.00, seems to have been modified with a different power supply (that sticks out the back and has a rather agressive looking heat sink (no to mention the 2" stilts added to the bottom of it) Just saw five Channel F Games ($2.00 each), bowling, target shoot, some breakout clone, card game, and something else that escapes memory, all in original boxes. If those of you are TRULY interested in paying cost plus shipping for any of this stuff, I'll get them next go-around if they are still here. -- Now back to previous messages: > From: Doug Spence > Subject: Re: PET to S100 bus interface > On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: >> fyi, on p. 272 of November '79 Byte: a company called AB Computers offered >> a device called "BETSI", described as a "PET to S-100 Interface & >> Motherboard". cost was $119.... > Thanks for the info! I guess it was a fairly common type of device, then. > I wonder if there are also IBM-PC to S100 interfaces? I think advertising was cheaper then, cause there was alot of goodies that were advertised and I haven't seen all too much of it. ----- From: Captain Napalm Subject: Re: BYTE Magazines > While I haven't read a Byte magazine in several years, (since the early 90s), > those that I have seen I tend to group into three catagories: > 1. Hobby Era (start of publication to late 83/early 84) These are the best ones, back then BYTE called themselves 'The Small Systems Journal' and everything was worth writing about. > 2. Journal Era (early 84 to late 87/early 88) Trying to be a programmer's/EE resource it seemed to me... Kinda forgot the hobbiests. started to cater to the IBM clone market. > 3. PC Rag Era (early 88 through the 90s) Saw one just the other day, they now have under BYTE: "The Global Authority of Computer Technology" They had their heyday as 'fat IBM magazine,' and are now struggling for an identity again. > My own collection of Byte starts with August of 85 (Amiga 1000 is the >cover story) and ends somewhere in late 89 or early 90. The library at the >university I attended had issues starting from Jan '77 (which I read 8-). >The dates given here are approximate, looking at a Byte from 1980, then 1985 >then 1990 will show almost three different magazines. I have a handfull from the 70s, (maybe back to 75 or 76?) a few from the early 80s and avoided it once they dropped 8-bit information. ---- On starting a newsgroup: Sounds great to me, It would be alot easier to reply to the posts I am replying to, we (Diane and I) get alot of mail as it is and I don't really want to un-digest the list. ---- On Sun, 4 May 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > I also have begun focusing on the accessories, especially if they are > mint or near it. To me a good user's manual, or a batch of original > software that is still usable is every bit as desirable as a fine old > machine. Mint? I myself collect to use the machines, I try to keep my books in decent shape but they are not even close to mint condition, nor do I consider the condition of something I buy for my collection, as long as it works, it provides information, or is interesting enough to warrant the cost and space it will take up, I'll buy it. Software and Books are a very important part of my collection, they take the computer beyond 'display peice' to actual usability and for me enjoyability. ----- From: Paul E Coad Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo > So what's the point? Preserving the machines is good, but it is only > part of the picture. What is the good of preserving a machine if all > of "culture" that surrounds the machine is lost? So true, my collection is from late 70s through 80s and I try to get a variety of stuff associated with it, fortunately I have disovered old cataloga, price lists and ads beyond the ones in the magazines, and at times I get lucky to find more in the stuff that I get/buy. (a recent quest has been for a good copy of the Pac Man Fever LP, finally got a scratched one...) I would love to get video recordings of the Commodore VIC-20 and 64 commercials (Eveybody now, "I adore my 64, my Commodore 64!") ----- TRON & Last Starfighter... Imaging systems. Being a TRON & Last Starfighter fan, Lemme check my resources... TRON effects were done by different groups, the most notable being MAGI (Mathimatical Applications Group, Inc.) who had just recently created the ray-tracing technique (called SythaVision at the time) for visualizing objects. The other was Triple III. MAGI (ray-tracing) was responsible for the effects up to the Solar sailer, after that it was Triple I (traditional polygon 3-d) who had most of the work for the sailer, MCP, etc. Alot of the work was done on the MAGI computers (in New York) via a Chomatics 9000 terminal. (Well CineFex didn't shed light on the computers themselves...) Ahh my TRON Collector's Edition Book has computers listed! MAGI used a Perkin Elmer System 3420 Computer which features 2 MB RAM and 2 80 MB hard drives and talks to a Celco CFR 4000 computer which is used to generate the pictures onto a monitor (I am quoting here, sounds strange) Triple I uses a Foonley F-I for handling the frame-by frame calculations and the pictures are generated on a PFR recorder... Last Starfighter: Done by Digital Productions which had use of a Cray 1/S and a Cray X-MP Encoding of the gunstars, wire frame previewing and such were on a VAX 11/782. When final animation was generated the Cray X-MP did the job as the VAX could only generate one frame in 16 hours and the Cray could crank one out in 2.5 minutes. The film contained 36,000 frames of imagery. ------- (RE: Patriot Games Effects) > Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off > of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. If I Delete files from someones shared hard drive on a Mac network they'll see the folders and icons dissapear. ------ > Well, something tells me that the cost of the LCD display, however high > it was, would have been peanuts in the prop and special effects budget. Alot of companies deal in product placement (Apple especially) where they are more than happy to loan (or even pay to loan) a movie company some equipment for the background and/or prop in a film. The more their computers are seen being somewhere, or even better, being used the better for sales! Ever see the movie Cloak and Dagger? Atari had quite a product placement hand in that one! If only I had known it was so rare, about a year ago I came across a ][c with the LCD at a thrift store... I can't remember the price though, but usually the stuff they sell is reasonable. ------ From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com Subject: Ohio Scientific, anyone? > I thought i'd post about a machine which certainly qualifies to be classic, > an ohio scientific challenger C1P of which i know nothing about. i did get > some extensive documentation with it including a presale brochure, some > photocopied machine language programs, the original reciept dated 20jun1980 > for $425, some info about a d&n micro card which i also got, instructions for > eprom burner software, basic ref manual, and some highly technical info and > board schematics. My brother had an interest in getting a Challenger (no money though), as I remember, there is the Challenger 1P, 2P, 4P, and 8P (8P being big boxes, the rest are within the keyboard enclosure). My brother was interested in the features of the 4P (Of which I can hardly recall, except the graphics set was kinda neat.). ------ Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 01:15:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > 25 RX50 disks labelled MICRO/RSTS - I don't knwo what they are > but I'm guessing they're not for the Rainbow. I really needed > some RX50 disks though. RSTS is a time sharing system that ran on, hmmm, I forget. I think some DEC mini. I've used it in the real world a couple times. > Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) > (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) I was leafing through some copies of Creative Computing I had today and just happened to see an add that was hawking memory modules, printer interfaces and graphics enhancement plug-ins for the TS/1000. That's probably what this is. Is it called the Memo...something? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 01:28:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: Stuff I found, BYTE, collecting, TRON info, Ohio Scientific, etc. In-Reply-To: <33767EB2.2F57@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > (RE: Patriot Games Effects) > > Hardly. I don't know of an operating system that yanks the file contents off > > of your screen when someone else on the network deletes them. > > If I Delete files from someones shared hard drive on a Mac network > they'll see the folders and icons dissapear. I was referring to the actual file contents. IE. Harrison was actually viewing the file and then all of a sudden it was replaced with a "FILE DELETED" window. This just doesn't happen. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 01:36:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines Message-ID: Well, I was too busy with other stuff and unfortunately couldn't attend a real good swap meet this weekend, but I did re-discover a cache of magazines in my parents' barn. I found out I had an entire run of Creative Computing, I have almost the complete run of A+ (including the first issue...this is an Apple ][ mag), a (I think) complete run of Incider (another Apple ][ rag), a few issues of byte from 1981 (the SmallTalk issue) and 1984, a couple issues of Family Computing from 1984, an issue of SoftTalk, and some other miscellany. This stuff is as good as gold! Creative Computing is a total blast going through all the ads. The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering today. I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Mon May 12 02:40:12 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > today. I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be > this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers > or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the > thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! > Viva la 70s and 80s! That said, I can think of one or two machines produced during the 90's which may eventually be collectable: the BeBox, original Newton Message Pad, Eo machines, SPARCstation Voyager, and possibly a few pocket/palmtop machines. Being a bit of a Sun-weenie, I might also add Sun 4/110. Most of the above machines had fairly small production runs, and had a certain cool factor to them. Not all machines produced during the 90's have been boring beige boxes. Some innovative and interesting machines have been produced. Add an unupgraded Pilot 1000 to the list. Most people don't want interesting computers, they want machines which help them do something. The difference between the people on this list and nearly everyone else is that we LIKE computers. We think they are more than just a tool needed to accomplish as task or to provide an occasional diversion. We can make computers do things other than run prepackaged software. We know that computers are FUN. We value what is different and unique about the old machines. Compatibility is good for business, but it sure is boring. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From gram at cnct.com Mon May 12 07:33:11 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well Was: Re: yo In-Reply-To: <9705092253.AA30999@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > On microcomputer prices, here's some prices from the back of an > August 1982 BYTE that I just happen to have on my desk here: > > Compupro M-Drive (S-100) with 256Kbytes of RAM: $2795 > Compupro Disk 1 (S-100) floppy controller: $ 555 > Morrow designs 5 Mbyte hard disk S-100 subsystem $1975 > Box of 10 Dysan DSDD 5.25" floppy diskettes $ 60 > Tandon TM100-2 5.25" FH DSDD 360K floppy drive $ 325 > Shugart SA851 8" DSDD 1.2Mbyte floppy drive $ 555 > Epson MX-80 dot-matrix printer $ 500 Hmm. Looking at those prices, that must have been an ad from a discount house. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From zmerch at northernway.net Mon May 12 07:42:15 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970512084215.0095cd80@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Sam Ismail said: [snip] >I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic >computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I >can't think of anything else right off hand. Speak for yourself, buckshot! ;^> I can think of one *very collectible* system that was produced into the 90's: Try a Tandy Color Computer 3. They were produced into 1991/92, if memory serves. Yes, an 8-bit machine that actually had viability (and profitability) into the 90's! BTW, the CoCo series has the distinction of having the longest production time of any 8-bit system, and I think of any non IBM/Mac system. Anyway, that's just my $0.000002 (and that's all it's worth!) ;-) Thanks, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From gram at cnct.com Mon May 12 08:23:33 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > TAB books published a few on how to build a microcomputer: > "How to Build Your Own Working Microcomputer" by Charles K. Adams > The Adams book seems like it was a rush job. There are quite a few > error and a few omissions in the book which should have been caught > by a proof reader. > Did TAB books just crank out books during the 80s? I haven't been able > to find a complete list of TAB books, but they cover the range from "33 > Challenging Computer Games for TRS-80/Apple/Pet" (total crap) to "The > Handbook of Microcomputer Interfacing" (very good). While I never got into the hardware books from TAB, I tried a number of their programming books on BASIC and Pascal. The line was typoed to hell and back -- nothing worked without extensive editing. I've got OCR software that reads handprinted text with more accuracy than TAB ever published. The biggest tragedy is that they got Radio Shack to resell some of their atrocities -- and I'm the guy who did customer support answering questions about why nothing worked. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Mon May 12 08:31:04 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > Samda Word Processor for DEC Rainbow Ancestor to Ami Pro. I first used it with Unix, found a DOS copy out by some trash cans in Manhattan a couple of years ago, complete with keyboard overlays and everything. DOS version works fine with Linux DOS emulator. > 17 8" TRS-80 Model II disks Any indication as to what's on them? > TRS-80 TRP-100 printer I can't recall that one clearly, but I think it used thermal paper? > TRS-80 Color Graphics Printer Which one? The little one that used roll paper (CGP-115) or the flatbed CGP-215? > TRS-80 RAM module (looks like the T-S RAM module) That's be for the MC-10 Micro Color Computer. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Mon May 12 09:44:51 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 11 May 1997 23:15:35 PDT." Message-ID: <199705121444.JAA21975@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Adding to Sam Ismail saying: >On Sun, 11 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > >> 25 RX50 disks labelled MICRO/RSTS - I don't knwo what they are >> but I'm guessing they're not for the Rainbow. I really needed >> some RX50 disks though. > >RSTS is a time sharing system that ran on, hmmm, I forget. I think some >DEC mini. I've used it in the real world a couple times. As far as I know RSTS was never ported to anything except the PDP-11 at least not a port that was marketed. My guess is that these are for one of the DEC PRO machines. These machines had the small LSI-11 implementation. At any rate, you're right, they're not for the Rainbow. If you want to unload them and don't find anyone else who wants them, I might be interested. The only reason I'm not more interetsed is that none of my LSI-11s have floppy drives and I don't really feel like going to the trouble of duplicating a PRO. On the other hand, if I ever come across a PRO, it'd be nice to have an OS for it. If I were you, I'd check the vmsnet.pdp-11 and alt.sys.pdp11 newsgroups. You can probably find someone there who could make use of it. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon May 12 11:22:06 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: <199705121444.JAA21975@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> from "Brian L. Stuart" at May 12, 97 09:44:51 am Message-ID: <9705121522.AA24020@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1806 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970512/f714707d/attachment-0001.ksh From transit at primenet.com Mon May 12 11:07:48 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > today. The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting programs to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? Probably not. Of course, the computers couldn't read each other's tapes (disks were out of the question for most of us anyway) . . . From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Mon May 12 17:27:05 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: ; from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 12, 97 9:07 am Message-ID: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting > programs > to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time > in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on > my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? > Probably not. > > Of course, the computers couldn't read each other's tapes (disks were > out of the question for most of us anyway) . . . Does anyone else remember a Dutch thing called 'Basicode-2' ? This was an attempt at making universal basic programs for all the popular home computers of the time (early 1980's). It was in 2 parts : 1) A common cassette format - the basic source would be stored in ASCII, using Kansas City tones at 1200 baud. You would load a translator program into your machine (some machines, like the TRS-80 model 1, needed a little hardware add-on as well), and then load the Basicode program. I designed a piece of hardware to translate Basicode tapes into RS232 data, which meant I could load them into machines without a cassette interface... 2) The machine-specific commands (Clearing the screen might be CLS, HOME, PRINT "", etc) were replaced by basic subroutines. I think GOSUB 100 was clear screen, GOSUB 110 was position cursor at X,Y (basic variables X and Y), etc. Again, you loaded a package of subroutines (which were often included with the tape reading program) before loading the program. I think your program began at line 1000. Of course many things (sound, hi-res graphics, etc) were impossible, but the system did work to some extent. Programs were transmitted on broadcast-band radio (the BBC radio 4 station transmitted them in the middle of the night as something called the 'chip shop takeaway service' (!) - the 'chip shop' was a radio programme that covered home computing at that time). You recorded these programs off-air using a normal tape recorder and played them back into your machine after loading the translator tape. At one time you could buy a cassette with translators for all the common machines on one side, and a set of demonstration programs on the other. I think I still have mine somewhere... > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 11:53:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > > today. > > The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting > programs > to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time > in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on > my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? > Probably not. But wouldn't you agree that all the frustration you went through back then is what enables you to write good code today? The diversity back then was at least conducive to creativity. You were always challenged. If you got bored, there was always some other system out there to conquer. These days its trying to figure out what IRQ and base address you should use, and some of that is handled for you anyway. What fun is that? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 11:46:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512084215.0095cd80@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > >computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > >can't think of anything else right off hand. > > Speak for yourself, buckshot! ;^> > > I can think of one *very collectible* system that was produced into the > 90's: Try a Tandy Color Computer 3. They were produced into 1991/92, if > memory serves. Yes, an 8-bit machine that actually had viability (and > profitability) into the 90's! I'm talking 90s born, bred, and dead. The CoCo3 was born and bred in the 80s. What system conceived in the 90s will likely become a classic? I think Paul was definitely on track about the PalmTops (Newton, Pilot, Psion, etc). Those are really cool machines. I have a Psion 3a that is broken (just needs some repair work and it will be fine) that I was planning on trading in for a 3c. Just now I thought back to when I had my Aquarius with all the goodies and sold that and my Atari 2600 to trade up to my first Apple ][+. I then realized how much I regretted that decision, even to today. Does history repeat itself? Hmmm...guess it depends on how much money I have when it comes time to make a decision on the 3c. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 12 12:06:46 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512084215.0095cd80@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > BTW, the CoCo series has the distinction of having the longest production > time of any 8-bit system, and I think of any non IBM/Mac system. > I thought the C64 had that distinction (along with most units produced for any one type which was estimated to be around 10 million). Of course, if we're talking about the CoCo *series*, well then... BTW, it's not as "new" as it used to be, but I always liked to flip over my 64C when my PeeCee buddies used to say "where you'd get THAT old piece of junk." and show them the little sticker that said (c) Commodore 1992 Les From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 11:57:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Of course many things (sound, hi-res graphics, etc) were impossible, but > the system did work to some extent. Programs were transmitted on > broadcast-band radio (the BBC radio 4 station transmitted them in the > middle of the night as something called the 'chip shop takeaway service' > (!) - the 'chip shop' was a radio programme that covered home computing at > that time). You recorded these programs off-air using a normal tape > recorder and played them back into your machine after loading the > translator tape. I must say quite bluntly, that's fucken cool. That is unadulterated, undisputable, irrepressible coolness to the nth degree. Wide-band, mass software distribution. There's something you won't see today. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 12 12:19:32 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I'm talking 90s born, bred, and dead. The CoCo3 was born and bred in the > 80s. What system conceived in the 90s will likely become a classic? I How about an Amiga 4000? (Desktop model of course) I know they still sorta teknik'ly maybe make these things but mabe in 10 years or so? A little plain looking but just maybe... Les From dastar at crl.com Mon May 12 12:27:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: magazine collection and heath-kit 89 Message-ID: When I was at my parents' house, I also went to visit my old-timer neighbor. My parents told me he wanted to talk to me about getting a new computer. He has one of the first 1000 HeathKit H89 systems to come off the assembly line. I remember going to his house back in 1988 a couple times to trade programming tips with him and playing with it. He built it himself. It's in cherry condition, with the original Heathkit covers for both the computer and the heathkit printer. I gave him advice on buying a new system and offered to buy his Heathkit from him, but I don't think he's ready to sell it yet. Before I left I emphasized that when he's ready to part with it to call me. I'm looking through this old issue of Popular Computing (I also found a good run of this magazine). This issue is September 1983. These things are awesome. Let's take a look at this one... The cover story is "Demystifying Computer Languages" and has a column each for APL, BASIC, C, COBOL, FORTH, FORTRAN, LISP, Modula-2, Pascal, PROLOG and Smalltalk. You see, that's another thing that was great about the 80s...not only did you have diversity of systems, but you had a viable diversity of languages. Sure you could argue that today, but let's face it, this is a C dominated world. Hmm, cool, there's a hacking article, "Profile of a Computer Abuser". And some way cool Do-itYourself article on how to build a $4 printer stand. Let's see, there's the standard Elephant Memory Systems disk ad (remember those? Always with a yellow backdrop, a lot of times on the back of the mag). Anyway, here's an ad for a Percom Data disk drive for the T-99/4a for $499. So whoever found that TI-99/4a disk in the thrift shop, keep looking for the Percom Data disk drive. Here's the basic IBM ad with the lame Charlie Chaplan impersonator. Ok cool, a big price page for a company called computer mail order (how generic). Timex Sinclair 1000, $39.95; Commodore 64, $239; Pet 64, $569; Sanyo MBC-555, $795; Eagle IIE-1, $1,369; and on the CMO top 100, we have Choplifter at #1 for the Apple, WordPro64 for the C64 and Donkey Kong for the Atari. Moving on, we have an add for Fontrix (a cool Apple ][ page designing program), an ad for Commodore 64 that compares its under $600 price to the $1395 Apple, the $999 TRS-80 III and the $1355 IBM PC. Wow. A 2-page ad spread for the Apple ///. Dum de dum, hey an ad for the HP-86 personal computer. I don't think I've ever seen one of these...its like an Apple in design, with the keyboard and CPU all one unit. I never knew HP made such a beast. I'll have to find me one of those. (are we bored yet?) Oh, here's a good one: an ad for a C64 that says "More power than Apple ][ at half the price" (what a joke) and for the VIC-20 that says "a real computer at the price of a toy" (they got the toy part right). I betray my thinly veiled Apple ][ bias. Moving on, here's a funky user definable keyboard called the keywiz VIP (and in parenthesis it says Very Intelligent Peripheral) made by a company called Creative Computer Peripherals. I guess you can assign a keyword to each key and it was compatible with the Apple and TRS-80. Then an ad for the TI Compact Computer. It shows a typically preppy 80s type dude sitting at a desk (presumably in a library) with a typically preppy 80s type chick sitting on the other side and the ad copy says "20 pages of notes, a thesis, algebraic forumlas. Can you make a date at eight?" The guy in the ad has one finger on a key on the computer which has a disk drive attached, and one holding a pen as he writes down notes on a yellow legal pad. Brilliant. I'll take two. Ok, here's an add from Wisconsin Discount Sales, showing a Panasonic 32K for $249, an Atari 800XL with, instead of a price, the word "NEW" in a blast bubble. Here's something funny. In caption from the article on Prolog, it says "Japanese researchers have chosen PROLOG as the standard language for their fifth-generation computer project. If the project succeeds, it's very likely that we'll all be programming in PROLOG by 1995!" I guess we all know the outcome of that particular project. Anyway, then there's a review of the Radio Shack PC-4 "programmable calculator" and the Casio FX-700P pocket computer. Hey, a ComputerLand ad. They are now back in business as Vanguard by the way. Blah, blah, blah. More ads. Blah. And that's pretty much it. I hope you enjoyed this tour of the September 1983 issue of Popular Computing. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From spc at armigeron.com Mon May 12 13:26:00 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 11, 97 11:36:15 pm Message-ID: <199705121826.OAA09612@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be > this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers > or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the > thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! Don't be too sure about that. There will be some - The Amigas after Commodore died. The BeBox. Certain workstations. Also, don't forget PDAs, which came unto their own this decade (like the Newton, Zeus, Pilot, etc). -spc (It's just that they'll be lost amid all the PC noise ... ) From william at ans.net Mon May 12 13:55:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <199705121826.OAA09612@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199705121855.AA18946@interlock.ans.net> > I think in 10 years there probably will be no memorable classic > computers worth collecting from the 90s. MAYBE the Mac portable, and I > can't think of anything else right off hand. There is just going to be > this hideous montage of various IBM PC clones by different manufacturers > or just run-of-the-mill computer shop PCs. Bleah! Long live the > thriving micro-computer revolution of the 70s and 80s! I think a collection of Unix workstations would be mighty fine - Suns, SGIs, NeXTs, etc.. I also think a collection of laptops (yes, PC) would also be very nice. In other words, if the items show sparks of creativity and/or clever engineering, a nice collection can be made. People said that transistor radios would never be collectable - now there is a huge following. The same will happen with the equipment from the 1990s. William Donzelli william@ans.net From eifs at thenet.co.uk Mon May 12 09:23:24 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam Ismail writes >I was leafing through some copies of Creative Computing I had today and >just happened to see an add that was hawking memory modules, printer >interfaces and graphics enhancement plug-ins for the TS/1000. That's >probably what this is. Is it called the Memo...something? Was it Memotech? they made all sorts of addons for the ZX81, hi-res graphics cards, serial and parallel ports and RAM expansion up to, as far as I can remember, 1Meg!!! BTW, is anyone interested in swapping any UK Sinclair stuff for a TS1000 or TS2068. I'd love to get either of these! -- Eifs From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun May 11 04:59:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting >programs >to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time >in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on >my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? >Probably not. I had a book about 1986 or so that crossreferenced the Basic commands of the popular home computers of the period, such as the Apple II, Commodore's, and the various TRS-80's. It was pretty interesting. I saw mention of a similar book being worked on now that was even greater in scope than this one. It is called something like 'Basref' or some such. I found a web page for it on the Web. That book certainly made the conversion of programs much easier though, even if you did at times need 4-5 statements on one machine to mimic something done on another. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at eleventh.com Sun May 11 05:34:14 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-May-97, classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: >Was it Memotech? they made all sorts of addons for the ZX81, hi-res >graphics cards, serial and parallel ports and RAM expansion up to, as >far as I can remember, 1Meg!!! BTW, is anyone interested in swapping any >UK Sinclair stuff for a TS1000 or TS2068. I'd love to get either of >these! I have a number of catalogs from Gladstone Electronics which show Memotech products, though none that offer memory expansion that large. They did offer some impressive add-ons for the Timex-Sinclair though! One of the more interesting things they list for Memotech is a real keyboard that plugs into the expansion port, but doesn't inhibit it's use for other addons. Real typewriter keys with atuo-repeat and it was buffered. It lists for $99.95. Your offer for trade for UK stuff makes me wish I had picked up an extra TS1000 a few months ago when I had the chance. I'd love to get my hands on some of the things that are common in the UK but rarely seen over here. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From visimp at junction.net Mon May 12 19:06:43 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:36 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <19970512.160643.01@junction.net> In message <199705121627.18889@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> you wrote: > Does anyone else remember a Dutch thing called 'Basicode-2' ? This was an > attempt at making universal basic programs for all the popular home > computers of the time (early 1980's). It was in 2 parts : Reach down to my right ankle and the old filing cabinet and there is my Basicocde2 cassette and manual. It was designed to oeprate the same program on Apple II and IIe's, BBC Model A and B, Commodore 64, Pet and Vic 20, Sharp MZ80A, Sinclair ZX81, Tandy TRS-80 and Video Genie. The BBC in the UK would broadcast programs over Radio-4 and Basicode would allow everyone to use them. Quite the idea. The cassette I have has the translator programs for all the above computers and several games on the reverse side. Yes, those were the days of creative computing. -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only 200 Mhz StrongARM in ARMstrong From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Mon May 12 20:14:07 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: TO: susan m. johnson Message-ID: <199705130114.UAA00243@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Thanks for the reply on wordstar. What is your email address? You forgot to include your email address in your message. I don't want to waste everyone time on wordstar. John Ott ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon May 12 20:21:22 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That's quite a haul you made this weekend. I've never been lucky enough to > come across so much at once. Normally it's a couple of items at the most. Same here - I should decide not to buy any computers more often! > >Macintosh (M0001) > > Lucky you! Not so lucky - doesn't work. Turn it on and it clicks twice and whines like its gonna blow a cap. Next weekend's project I guess... > I've got a bunch of disks for the TI that I was sent, though they tend to > be GROMs saved to disk. I was sure they were out there as the expansion boxes all had disk drives (I think) but I've never even seen an ad for commercially produced disk software for the TI. > >Timex-Sinclair 1000 with plug-in box on the back (RAM module?) > > (I never realized from pictures how small these were!) > > Normally, the 16k RAM pack says what it is on it, though I guess a RAM > module from a third party might not. The T/S-1000 RAM pack was about 3" wide > x 3" high x 1-1/2" deep. I've seen third party RAM packs up to 64k, but they > tended to be the full width of the computer. The sticker has been ripped off but there is a number imprinted inside that says 1016. I'm guessing that might be the model number for a 16k module for the T/S 1000? Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU Mon May 12 21:06:16 1997 From: COAKLEY at AC.GRIN.EDU (Benjamin M Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: What a weekend... Message-ID: <01IISO71O4J68Y6IP7@AC.GRIN.EDU> > The sticker has been ripped off but there is a number imprinted inside > that says 1016. I'm guessing that might be the model number for a 16k > module for the T/S 1000? That, at least, I can confirm. Just got one today. -- Ben Coakley CBEL: Xavier coakley@ac.grin.edu It's hard to find the words to say you don't give a damn - Freakwater Classic games and a zine at http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley From BigLouS at aol.com Mon May 12 21:42:33 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Home Made Computers Message-ID: <970512224039_-331784566@emout12.mail.aol.com> Didn't Steve Ciarcia put out a book in the early eighties on building a Z80 based system? I seem to recall using it as a reference when I was soldering together my Xerox 820 motherboard. Unfortunately I purged my Z80 6502 book collection years ago. :-( Lou P.S. It wasn't the MicroMint machine, that was later on. From transit at primenet.com Mon May 12 21:51:26 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > Of course many things (sound, hi-res graphics, etc) were impossible, but > > the system did work to some extent. Programs were transmitted on > > broadcast-band radio (the BBC radio 4 station transmitted them in the > > middle of the night as something called the 'chip shop takeaway service' > > (!) - the 'chip shop' was a radio programme that covered home computing at > > that time). You recorded these programs off-air using a normal tape > > recorder and played them back into your machine after loading the > > translator tape. > > I must say quite bluntly, that's fucken cool. That is unadulterated, > undisputable, irrepressible coolness to the nth degree. Wide-band, mass > software distribution. There's something you won't see today. I remember Radio Nederlands trying to broadcast computer tapes over shortwave radio back in late 1981. They did programs fro TRS 80's, Commodore Pet's and Atari 400/800. I remember that the experiment was a mixed success, with several TRS-80 users, a few Commodore users, and only one Atari 800 user succesfully recording the program off-air, and loading it into their computer. From transit at primenet.com Mon May 12 22:02:03 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > > The main thing that struck me is the diversity of computer systems that > > > were available in the early 80s. Contrast that with what you got today > > > (Wintel crap/Macincrap). That diveristy is what we are discovering > > > today. > > > > The other side of the coin, though, is the difficulty of converting > > programs > > to make them work on your computer. I remember spending a lot of time > > in high school, trying to convert TRS-80 and Apple II programs to run on > > my TI-99/4A. Fun? Yes. Would I want to do this under deadline pressure? > > Probably not. > > But wouldn't you agree that all the frustration you went through back > then is what enables you to write good code today? Perhaps, although I do very little coding nowadays (oh, a few C programs on Unix, and some Perl/CGI, and I'm learning C on the Mac) > The diversity back > then was at least conducive to creativity. You were always challenged. > If you got bored, there was always some other system out there to conquer. One other thing about the old days that I don't miss so much is the fanatical commitment to one system. Of course, nowadays, you can get just about any of these old systems for around $10, but back in the old days, when these systems (yes, even a VIC) cost $300 and up, the Apple vs TRS80 vs Commodore vs. IBM vs Mac vs Amiga vs Atari discussions approached the intensity of jihads! And of course, some systems were much better provided for than others. If you had an Apple II, a TRS-80, or (later on) a Commodore 64, you were pretty much all taken care of in terms of software. Users of Lesser-known systems like the TRS-80 Color Computer, or the TI-99/4, had to fight to find any decent software outside of what Radio Shack/TI wanted to provide for them. (The CoCo had it a little better, since its architecture was somewha better known) By the late 80's and early 90's, it was pretty much IBM, IBM, IBM and its clones all over the place, with Mac in second place and the Amiga in distant third (This was in the US--I understand that things were quite different in Europe and the rest of the world) > These days its trying to figure out what IRQ and base address you should > use, and some of that is handled for you anyway. What fun is that? There's always assembler language programming (almost a sine qua non for emulator development :-) > From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 12 22:46:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: movie computers Message-ID: I hope this isn't repeating a post as I accidently lost a few of the threads to this subject... ANYWAYS... I just re-watched "Electric Dreams." In it, the computer (Edgar) cmoes to life blah blah blah... Anyone know what kind of computer he/it was? The credits list Kaypro as a contributor... Les From dastar at crl.com Tue May 13 00:44:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: movie computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > I just re-watched "Electric Dreams." > In it, the computer (Edgar) cmoes to life blah blah blah... > Anyone know what kind of computer he/it was? The credits list > Kaypro as a contributor... Isn't that the one with that chick who plays the oboe and the computer starts mimicing her music and she can hear it from through the air conditioning vent or something? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Tue May 13 07:38:59 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > The sticker has been ripped off but there is a number imprinted inside > that says 1016. I'm guessing that might be the model number for a 16k > module for the T/S 1000? Well, to make sure, plug it in and start typing program lines until you get an error message. Then you'll know. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue May 13 07:51:55 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > I remember Radio Nederlands trying to broadcast computer tapes over > shortwave radio back in late 1981. They did programs fro TRS 80's, > Commodore Pet's and Atari 400/800. I remember that the experiment was a > mixed success, with several TRS-80 users, a few Commodore users, and > only one Atari 800 user succesfully recording the program off-air, and > loading it into their computer. Possibly because just about every system except the TRS-80 was extremely picky about cassette signal levels, and most were impatient about getting signal within a narrow time frame after the load instruction was given. Back in the old days, people used to complain about the reliability of the TRS-80 cassette subsystem. That's because it was so much better than the Apple or Pet cassette interface that people waited longer before upgrading to disk, that people had time to build up a string of problems. Apples were generally upgraded to disk almost immediately because the cassette interface was so abominable -- but because it'd been used for such a short period of time, folks forgot how bad it was. Of course, the TRS-80 Color Computer had the best cassette interface in history. And it was faster than a Commodore disk interface. (No, I'm not knocking Apples and Commodores. It's just that I had to listen to the whining about TRS-80 cassette reliability for too many years from folks who weren't _quite_ annoyed enough to upgrade.) -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue May 13 08:00:01 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: re-found magazines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > Of course, nowadays, you can get just about any of these old systems for > around $10, but back in the old days, when these systems (yes, even a VIC) > cost $300 and up, the Apple vs TRS80 vs Commodore vs. IBM vs Mac vs Amiga > vs Atari discussions approached the intensity of jihads! Checked into the OS Holy Wars in the comp.os.(crossposted).advocacy newsgroups lately? Makes our old squabbles about mere hardware architecture seem like nothing. And there were never any arguments about TRS-80 vs. Amiga. By the time the Amiga made any impact, the TRS-80 was being pretty well phased out in favor of those damned Tandy 1000 atrocities. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue May 13 11:17:32 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705131615.JAA06350@mx3.u.washington.edu> I know there was mention on this group a few weeks back about disk platters. Here's the situation: You can help preserve a bit of history. There is a project underway in the classic gaming community to release the entire *entire* Mattel Intellivsion library on an Emulator for the PC and Macintosh. This project is being spearheaded by the Blue Sky Rangers - a group of original Mattel Intellivision programmers. In addition to all the games that people know about, the Blus Sky Rangers have some 14" DEC platters taken from 2 VAX systems that were used for development. These files on these platters include source code, screen shots and data from *UNRELEASED* Intellivision games. Some of these probably were announced titles that never shipped, others were never even announced. If anyone has working equipment that can read these platters, and extract the files to some other medium, and is willing to get involved to preserve these games before they are lost forever, please contect me at mpritchard@ensemble.net or matthep@netcom.com I thank everyone in advance, -Matt Pritchard From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue May 13 11:31:29 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: What a weekend... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 08:22:06 -0800." <9705121522.AA24020@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199705131631.LAA23902@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Tim Shoppa (referring to Micro RSTS): >> As far as I know RSTS was never ported to anything except the PDP-11 >> at least not a port that was marketed. My guess is that these are >> for one of the DEC PRO machines. These machines had the small >> LSI-11 implementation. At any rate, you're right, they're not >> for the Rainbow. > >RSTS was never released for the Pro's. Porting an operating system >to the Pro is made difficult by the fact that it's I/O subsystem >is entirely different than the more traditional PDP-11's. Ahhh. I guessed wrong. I had thought that the strange Pro I/O was what the Micro referred to, but obviously not. >If any of your -11's have a RQDX1/2/3, then all you need to do >is add a floppy to the controller. RX33 floppy drives (TEAC's >with the proper jumper setting) will also read and write RX50's. Unfortunately, I don't have one of those cards. It's nice to know they'll take ordinary drives, though. Brian L. Stuart From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue May 13 11:36:18 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: magazine collection and heath-kit 89 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 10:27:50 PDT." Message-ID: <199705131636.LAA23913@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Sam Ismail: > Dum de dum, hey an ad for the HP-86 >personal computer. I don't think I've ever seen one of these...its like >an Apple in design, with the keyboard and CPU all one unit. I never knew >HP made such a beast. I'll have to find me one of those. They do have a certain cool factor. They made several models that differed mainly in what devices were built-in. I recently got an HP-85 which has the built-in monitor, printer and tape drive. They had BASIC in ROM and had an expansion port that could take an expansion ROM cartridge carrier as well as an RS-232 interface and a GPIB interface. Now if I can just get that 9815 they've got too. Someone else has claimed it, but he's never picked it up. Brian L. Stuart From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue May 13 17:43:19 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705131615.JAA06350@mx3.u.washington.edu>; from "Matt Pritchard" at May 13, 97 11:17 am Message-ID: <199705131643.26947@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> > In addition to all the games that people know about, the Blus Sky > Rangers have some 14" DEC platters taken from 2 VAX systems that were > used for development. These files on these platters include source > code, screen shots and data from *UNRELEASED* Intellivision games. Some > of these probably were announced titles that never shipped, others were > never even announced. 14" platters could be almost anything (off the top of my head, RK04, RK05, RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06, Several CDC drives, etc). And a drive that capable of reading one will not read any of the others (even if they will physically fit into it). If you can find out what they were written on, there's a good chance that somebody will still have at least one working drive... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue May 13 12:15:12 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705131713.KAA13164@mx3.u.washington.edu> > 14" platters could be almost anything (off the top of my head, RK04, > RK05, > RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06, Several CDC > drives, > etc). And a drive that capable of reading one will not read any of the > others (even if they will physically fit into it). > > If you can find out what they were written on, there's a good chance > that > somebody will still have at least one working drive... > > Thanks, Tony! > I'm checking on what type of platters they are right now, and will > post my findings to this list. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 13 15:28:26 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: movie computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Isn't that the one with that chick who plays the oboe and the computer > starts mimicing her music and she can hear it from through the air > conditioning vent or something? > Well, she plays a cello but that's the one. And the chick is Virginia Madsen. Besides mimicing her music the computer falls in love with her (which his owner does too) and eventually "kills it/himself" so that Moles (the owner) can be with the "chick" Les From davidv at cs.mun.ca Tue May 13 17:47:26 1997 From: davidv at cs.mun.ca (David Vincent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: movie computers Message-ID: <199705132247.UAA04167@ganymede.cs.mun.ca> hey, does anyone know the name of the computer/portable in the movie "Single White Female". I know it looks like a "lunchbox" type machine, but that's about it. thanks, Dave ------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Vincent davidv@ganymede.cs.mun.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue May 13 17:59:27 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu> This news just in: According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were running Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge RL02K-DC. --------------------------- Any help in finding a system that can read it, and someone willing to help out is massively appreciated! -Matt Pritchard > -----Original Message----- > From: A.R. Duell [SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 1997 12:43 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters > > > In addition to all the games that people know about, the Blus Sky > > Rangers have some 14" DEC platters taken from 2 VAX systems that > were > > used for development. These files on these platters include source > > code, screen shots and data from *UNRELEASED* Intellivision games. > Some > > of these probably were announced titles that never shipped, others > were > > never even announced. > > 14" platters could be almost anything (off the top of my head, RK04, > RK05, > RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07, RM02, RM03, RP04, RP05, RP06, Several CDC > drives, > etc). And a drive that capable of reading one will not read any of the > others (even if they will physically fit into it). > > If you can find out what they were written on, there's a good chance > that > somebody will still have at least one working drive... > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 13 19:24:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu> from "Matt Pritchard" at May 13, 97 05:59:27 pm Message-ID: <9705132324.AA27737@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970513/0e6f2ef0/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Tue May 13 18:50:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > This news just in: > > According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were running > Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge > RL02K-DC. > --------------------------- > > Any help in finding a system that can read it, and someone willing to > help out is massively appreciated! I second that. This is a truly significant undertaking. Well, maybe not earth-shattering but its pretty cool. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 14 09:50:28 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705132257.PAA20853@mx3.u.washington.edu>; from "Matt Pritchard" at May 13, 97 5:59 pm Message-ID: <199705140850.26791@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > This news just in: > > According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were running > Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge > RL02K-DC. In that case, they're RL02 packs, with a capacity of 10.4 Mbytes. There are plenty of working RL02's about - I have a couple myself on a PDP11, although it's non-trivial to ship the packs to me. I am sure you'll find somebody in the States who can help. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed May 14 11:15:37 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705141613.JAA25938@mx3.u.washington.edu> I just wanted to say this: Already several people have offered to help out by getting the files off the RLO2 disk packs. Right now, Jim Willing seems to be the guy to do it (he also seems to be closest to the disks, which I think are in central CA). I've put him in touch with keith Robinson who is heading up the Intellivsion emulator effort. Let me just say that I am overwhelmed by the favorable response that has come from the people on this list. The sense of community and people that value computer history has left me with a lump in my throat. Thanks to all, -Matt Pritchard > -----Original Message----- > From: A.R. Duell [SMTP:ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 1997 4:50 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters > > > > > > > This news just in: > > > > According to Ray Roux, who maintained the VAX systems, we were > running > > Unix, BSD 4.1. The platters are 14", with the label: Data Cartridge > > RL02K-DC. > > In that case, they're RL02 packs, with a capacity of 10.4 Mbytes. > There > are plenty of working RL02's about - I have a couple myself on a > PDP11, > although it's non-trivial to ship the packs to me. I am sure you'll > find > somebody in the States who can help. > > > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Wed May 14 20:51:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Odyssey Message-ID: Been pretty slow around here of late. I went to a thrift store and ended up finding a copy of John Scully's _Odyssey_. Although I hate this man and hold him solely responsible for the demise of Apple and especially the Apple ][ (please don't start a holy war over this, its just my stupid opinion) I found the book to contain tons of great history on Apple during the 80s and decided it would make an excellent read and historical reference. Even though it was in crummy condition, it was only $2.95. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue May 13 21:34:11 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters In-Reply-To: <199705131615.JAA06350@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > You can help preserve a bit of history. [...] I don't have a VAX handy, so I can't help, but would you please notify this list if you succeed in reading the data? Things like this don't happen every day. :-) Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu May 15 01:13:00 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Some stuff I found on the NG today... Message-ID: <337AA96C.3CDE@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello, I saw a post on the misc.forsale.computers.mac-specific.misc newsgroup tonight that had a bunch of vintage computer stuff in it. Including some mac software, lisa books & software, Lisa keyboard, Apple II stuff and some non-Apple stuff too. I didn't want to quote the thing here because it's a long list so go to the newsgroup or Dejanews and search this title: Apple items for sale Posted by: jmorand@tiac.net (Doug M.) By the way I don't even know this guy, I just thought the prices looked reasonable and you folks might need something he has. Greg From gram at cnct.com Thu May 15 11:05:32 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Equipment available Message-ID: Unfortunately, I can't take advantage of this due to being on the wrong edge of the continent. But if anyone else is interested, go for it. The TRS-80 Model II IMAO was always one of the most rugged and reliable systems I ever used. Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:43:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy K. in San Francisco To: gram Subject: Re: Model 2000 Xenix Hi There: I saw the posting that you placed on comp.sys.tandy that proclaimed yourself as a 16/6000 specialist/expert. I still have one that I don't use...it is taking up too much of valuable desk space...any suggestions on how to sell (for very little of course) this computer system. It is 1 MB, 20 MB primary, 12 MB secondary...2 8" double density disk drives... I also have two tandy 12s and 2 Model IIs and a VT-52 in the basement wrapped up in plastic. Software, manual, etc. etc. etc. While I was working for Toni Kelly of Bay Area (now in Dallas), we shipped a model II and it was a nightmare, so I would rather not ship it. Suggestions welcome...the owner of club-100 suggested I could ask $50 for the Model 2s, $75 for the Tandy 12 and maybe $150 for the 16/6000. Yes I know people have gotten them free or from garage sales/thrift stores...I would rather not have to dump these "boat anchors." Thanks, take care, andy k. in San Francisco scooter@california.com From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 15 15:32:29 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Lists Message-ID: Just a quick note - I've uploaded the remainder of the lists I'm working on (PCs and clones, peripherals, and operating systems) to the web site. The PC/clones list is nearly complete and the others are still very much "in progress". I don't know how useful they'll really be right now, but if you're bored you can send me additions and corrections. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 15 15:36:49 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Whoops... Message-ID: BTW - they're at http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/misc.html Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 15 22:18:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Lists In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at May 15, 97 1:32 pm Message-ID: <199705152118.2156@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> I have a few updates/corrections to the Classic Computer List : MODEL CPU RAM OS TYPE YR Under Acorn, Add : System 3 6502 ? Acorn Micro ?? System 4 6502 56K Acorn Micro ?? System 5 6809 56K Flex-09 Micro ?? Archimedes A305 Arm2 512K RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A310 Arm2 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A410 Arm2 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A420 Arm2 2M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A440 Arm2 4M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A3000 Arm2 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A3010 Arm250 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A3020 Arm250 1M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A4000 Arm250 1M? RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A5000 Arm3 4M RiscOS Micro ?? Archimedes A540 Arm3 4M RiscOS Micro ?? Also note that the Proton was the same machine as the BBC micro Epson : Update HX20 6803 8K Custom Port ?? Add: HH Electronics Tiger Z80/6809 64K+8K CP/M? Micro ?? HP : Add HP71B Saturn 16K Custom Handheld HP75C ?? ?? Custom Handheld HP75D ?? ?? Custom Handheld ICL : Add PERQ 3300 AGW 68020 2M Uniplus+ Micro 85? Intel : Add Intellec MCS8i 8080 8K Monitor Micro 73? Intellec MDS800 8080 64K ISIS Micro ?? Add (or update Three Rivers) : PERQ Systems PERQ 1 Custom 256K? POS Workstn 79 PERQ 1a Custom 1M POS/PNX Workstn 80 PERQ 2T1 Custom 1M POS/PNX Workstn 81? PERQ 2T2 Custom 2M POS/PNX Workstn 83 PERQ 2T4 Custom 4M POS/PNX Workstn 85? Philips : Update P850 Custom 2K None Mini 71 Add: P851 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P852 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P855 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P856 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P857 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? P860 Custom ?? ?? Mini ?? Plessey : Add Mantra M200 68000 2M Uniplus+ Micro ?? Sharp : Update PC1211 Custom 2K? ?? Handheld ?? PC1350 Custom 8K? ?? Handheld ?? PC1500 LH5801 3K ?? Handheld ?? PC1500A LH5801 8K ?? Handheld ?? Sinclair : Update MK14 SC/MP 256Bytes ?? Micro 76? QL 68008 128K QDOS Micro 84? ZX80 Z80A 1K ?? Micro 80 Torch XXX 68010 1M Uniplus+ Micro ?? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From jeffh at eleventh.com Mon May 12 09:06:18 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: more aquisitions Message-ID: Well, seems I've been busy as ever picking stuff up. Not only am I currently awaiting the arrival of an Apple II+, including a number of goodies, but last night I went to my two favorite thrift stores and picked up a couple of things. The first is a beige TI-99/4A. I hadn't originally planned on getting another 4A since I have a silver/black one with PEBox sitting here, but at $3, I couldn't pass it up. It's a nice looking machine, and seems to work fine. The only problem is that it is missing the 'apha lock' keycap. Hopefully I'll be able to locate one eventually. I got this at the same store I picked up the other PEBox at a month or so ago. This means I've bought a complete TI-99/4A with PEBox from them, both functional, for a total of $8! The other major thing I picked up was an AST SixPackPlus RAM and I/O board for a PC-XT. I picked this up, populated with 256k, for $10 hoping to be able to use it with the IBM 5155 to increase it's memory, as well as add the I/O ports to it. The 5155 may have all eight expansion slots, but after the built-in video and disk controller use two, that only leaves one left usable due to the length of the others behind the disk drives. After some moving around, I finally got the full length AST board installed and it worked like a champ. Now I have a full 512k plus serial and parallel I/O on the 5155! Does anyone know where I might find the clock utility for the oboard battery-backed clock on this board? That's my haul for the day...the only other things I picked up were cartridges for the C-64: Hes Mon-64 and PitFall. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu May 15 17:35:07 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays Message-ID: Greetings. Recently I picked up a manual for a machine called the "Laser Concept 286/16 Laptop" for the sole reason that it has a couple of good photos of the machine's red gas plasma display. I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) Anyway, I'm wondering why this technology was so little used. What were the major disadvantages? And do these displays still survive today? (Does anyone have one?) I think gas plasma displays look extremely cool, but I've never actually seen one in real life. They could be a real pain in the eyes to use for extended periods? Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From jeffh at eleventh.com Thu May 15 18:07:46 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays Message-ID: TCPSMTP_GEN.8554.9495@206.156.30.55 At 06:39 PM 5/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in >magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) If I remember correctly, we had a Compaq 'lunchbox' portable machine that had a gas-plasma display on it. It was a '386 machine and the display pivoted outward and could be adjusted for the best viewing angle. I've seen a couple other systems with these displays as well, but don't recall which ones or if I had any problems with them. It seems to me that the gas-plasma was fairly easy on the eyes. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From pcoad at crl.com Thu May 15 18:47:26 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > Recently I picked up a manual for a machine called the "Laser Concept > 286/16 Laptop" for the sole reason that it has a couple of good photos of > the machine's red gas plasma display. > > I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in > magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) I can think of two others, the HP Integra and the Toshiba 3100(?). > > Anyway, I'm wondering why this technology was so little used. What were > the major disadvantages? And do these displays still survive today? (Does > anyone have one?) Didn't it require a good deal of power compared to LCD? I'm really just guessing, but I'll bet that as LCD technology advanced, GPDs lost favor, especially once color LCDs of reasonable size dropped in price and increased in size. Both of the machines above I believe could run on batteries for some period of time, but both were also pretty heavy compared to today's laptops. I passed oppertunities to buy both machines in the last few years. I kind of regret passing on the HP. It was a pretty cool machine, it had Unix in ROM! I would snap another one up in a minute today. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From william at ans.net Thu May 15 20:36:23 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> > Anyway, I'm wondering why this technology was so little used. What were > the major disadvantages? And do these displays still survive today? (Does > anyone have one?) They are quite expensive to manufacture and suck power like crazy, compared to LCDs. I do not know of any general purpose machines that still use them, but they are quite common in military and industrial equipment. IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. I once saw a few at a hamfest a year or so back, but they still had hefty price tags - $200. I am sure that was a small fraction of their original cost. Incidently, glass plasma displays show that electron tubes can be made _very_ small, using traditional semiconductor etching processes. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu May 15 23:05:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I remember seeing some other systems with this kind of display in > magazines. (The GRiD Compass comes to mind?) Hmmm...I saw a couple GRiD laptops at the last swap meet I went to. Are these considered classic? I wasn't sure, and besides, the lady was asking too much. I think the first Compaq portables used a gas plasma display. Or was it the second generation? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 16 00:23:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970515222309.00f1ac2c@agora.rdrop.com> At 04:47 PM 5/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 15 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > >Didn't it require a good deal of power compared to LCD? I'm really just >guessing, but I'll bet that as LCD technology advanced, GPDs lost favor, >especially once color LCDs of reasonable size dropped in price and increased >in size. Both of the machines above I believe could run on batteries >for some period of time, but both were also pretty heavy compared to today's >laptops. Having worked on the Compaq III series which had the plasma displays, I can vouch for the power requirements. Lighting the thing up took a couple of mills at 170V, plus the special circuitry that Compaq had to generate variable (!) intensitys on the display. Somewhat tempermental at times, and not at all practical fot battery operation. -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Fri May 16 01:51:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: arcade game advertisements Message-ID: The other day I was looking at an ad on the back of a comic book. It was for a nintendo or sega game or whatnot. I then remembered how when I was a boy how Atari and other such companies used to advertise their games on the backs of comic books. Anyway, my point is that looking at the backs of old 80s comic books is a neat way to look back at the games that were available back then. It gives a nice historical perspective. Speaking of historical perspective (or something) I just got Pitfall for the Atari 2600 today (a game I had way back when I had my first 2600) and I must say even by today's standard it is a bitchen game. As far as creativity and just the sheer fun of playing it, it beats a lot of the dreck out today. I can't wait until my Pitfall II comes in. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 16 03:12:43 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: It's been slow the last few days on the list so it is time to send this. It is another look back at an issue of a magazine. This one is the January 1987 issue of Byte. There is some interesting stuff. Enjoy. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prelude Once again Sam Ismail beat me to the punch. I've been working on this on and off for about a week (mostly during long compiles). Most likely it will be boring to some, but there is some value in looking back occasionally to see how we got to this point. If the group consensus is that this sort of stuff does not belong on the list, this will be the last one. A few more are planned, but they focus more on the happier days of the 70s and early 80s. Introduction While going through some old magazines I came across the January 1987 issue of Byte. It is the oldest copy of Byte that I currently own. Over the years I have pulled this issue out and looked at it several times, not because it was a particularly good or bad issue, but because it was my first. Since this list is about collecting computers over 10 years old and this is a magazine about computers which is over ten years old, it seems to be on topic. This is somewhat biased look back to the state of computing 10 years ago as presented by Byte. As has been noted, the articles in this issue have an academic flavor so it clearly belongs to the second age. The cover of this issue features a butterfly whos body is an IC and whos wings are paper basic listings. The butterfly sits on a leaf with circuit board traces. The focus of the magazine is programmable hardware. On the cover is a block of text: REVIEWS: ------- 9 PC AT Multifunction Cards 12 EGA Cards 3 Modula-2s 12 PC AT Clones. Clearly in 1987 we were in the era of the PC. Looking through the magazine, there are some interesting threads. There are quite a few ads for expert systems/AI programs. There is even an article on the use of intelligent databases which advocates the use of Prolog to implement databases. Many languages are represented in ads and articles including several C products, Modula-2 ads and reviews, as well as ads for Forth, COBOL, Pascal, BASIC, and APL. These are primary ads focused on selling language products. There are also several ads for Unix and machines which ran Unix. It appears that a good machine in 1987 was a 286 with a 9 pin dot matrix printer, 512K of memory, a 20MB hard disk, and a 2400bps modem. A top of the line machine was a 386 with either a 24 pin dot matrix printer or a laser printer, 1MB of memory, a 40MB+ hard disk, and a 9600bps modem. There are many ads for 1200/2400 bps modems and dot matrix printers. The state of the art at the time does appear to be 9600 bps modems and 24 pin printers. One or two ads mention laser printers. It is obvious that 386 has not been on the scene for a long time. Most ads for clone machines feature AT class computers. 386's are priced at a premium. Logicsoft lists only one 386, a Compaq Deskpro with 1MB of memory, 16MHz maximum clock speed, and a 40MB hard disk for $5,349. A monitor is available as an option. Interestingly there is some coverage of the Amiga and Atari ST. There is not anywhere near the coverage of x86 machines. Several ads mention Amigas, STs, and even VAXen. The dog that didn't bark There is only one ad by Microsoft, and it is in the form of a "Languages Newsletter". It features a picture of Bill Gates and pushes their C compiler and QuickBasic. There are no articles about Microsoft products. In 1987 they had not yet achieved a strangle hold on the programming and applications markets. While there was still some diversity it was definitely being elbowed out by the beige boxes. Prices Everything was more expensive then. It is amazing that a box of 360K disks cost between 8 and 12 dollars. There are several ads in the back of the magazine in which DSDD disks could be had for as low as $.25 per disk (in quantities of 500). High end products today still command premium prices. From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 16 03:39:09 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. > They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember > them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without > overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. > I remember seeing these at a site I visited once. They were totally cool. Especially compared to the all metal green screen 3278s I had been using for the previous few years. I also remember 4 non-overlapping virtual 3278s being displayed on the screen. The display was about 4-6 inches deep and around 19 inches diagonally. (The 3278s I was using were about 2 feet deep.) I saw these in use in the early 90s. > I once saw a few at a hamfest a year or so back, but they still had hefty > price tags - $200. I am sure that was a small fraction of their original > cost. I'm sure that there are plenty of shops which would pay $200 each. There was a time in which I would have paid $200 of my own money to be able to use one of these. They beat the hell out of using 2 terminals or Tubes. There is another cool thing. This software allowed use of multiple virtual terminals on a single terminal with hot key switching. We thought this was pretty hot stuff at the time. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ___ PR0G 402 /___ From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 16 08:08:22 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: References: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516090822.009a0920@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Paul E Coad said: >On Thu, 15 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > >> IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. >> They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember >> them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without >> overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. >> >I remember seeing these at a site I visited once. They were totally cool. >Especially compared to the all metal green screen 3278s I had been using >for the previous few years. I also remember 4 non-overlapping virtual >3278s being displayed on the screen. The display was about 4-6 inches >deep and around 19 inches diagonally. (The 3278s I was using were about >2 feet deep.) I saw these in use in the early 90s. Ahhhh, yes... those were the good ol' days! I remember *working* on these, and I can tell you that they were --==Sweet!!!==-- Extremely easy on the eyes, with said 4 terminals made it very handy to work on different machines at the same time. Even with 4 windows on the one terminal, ISTR that there were almost no jaggies... I worked for EDS (owned by GM) in 1989-1990 in Auburn Hills, MI, and had a chance to work with IBM/Amdahl mainframes, some of the CAD terminals that engineers designed the cars on, some early SUN hardware (can't remember which machines... they were set inside consoles, so all you had to work with were the keyboards/mice/monitors... I just remember *badly* wanting one) and a bunch of other gnarly hardware! It made me cry when I had to work on our 1-and-only overworked AS/400 that took up to 2 hours to execute one command! One night (when load was lower) I remember entering a [simple] command (WRKACTJOB [work with active jobs], if memory serves), taking orders for the entire control room, driving to Taco Bell (6-7 miles away), getting/paying for the food, went back and distributed everything, and I was still done eating 10 minutes before the command displayed output! Anyone out there have a GPD for sale for $5 that I can interface to my CoCo3? *Pinch* Owww! Damn! I'm at work! Gotta go! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 09:31:57 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: References: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> > This sounds like a lot of content, but there are 86 full page > ads. 43 column adds which comes out to about 14 more pages of ads. Out > of 201 pages in the technical section 100 pages are ads. This is not too > bad, but for a magazine which was at one time highly technical, it is > pretty sad. Tot total number of pages in this issue was 488. How many pages > of technical content does it [BYTE] have now? > > > IMHO, close to zero. From groberts at mitre.org Fri May 16 09:53:42 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:37 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> References: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> At 08:31 AM 5/16/97 -0600, Jeff Kaneko wrote: >> How many pages of technical content does it [BYTE] have now? >> >IMHO, close to zero. > i have many of the older Bytes (late 70's). those were high quality content for any microcomputer enthusiast. I threw out most of my issues from the mid to late 80's (after pulling out useful articles including all the Steve Ciarcia columns!). Also have two of the compendiums of early Dr. Dobb's that are chock full of stuff like assembly listings and construction blueprints. trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... - glenn From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Fri May 16 10:32:56 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 May 1997 10:53:42 EDT." <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> Message-ID: <199705161533.KAA29667@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> Glenn Roberts wrote: >trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's >Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... Peering through the haze of long lost memories (delay line and core) I see a title something like: Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calesthnics [sp?] and Orthodontia: Running Light without Overbyte To my great regret, though, I don't own any copies from back then. Brian L. Stuart From transit at primenet.com Fri May 16 10:47:12 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: > > > This sounds like a lot of content, but there are 86 full page > > ads. 43 column adds which comes out to about 14 more pages of ads. Out > > of 201 pages in the technical section 100 pages are ads. This is not too > > bad, but for a magazine which was at one time highly technical, it is > > pretty sad. Tot total number of pages in this issue was 488. How many pages > > of technical content does it [BYTE] have now? > > > > > > > IMHO, close to zero. > Last time I read Byte (about a year or so now), it seemed to be not only a shadow of its former self. . .but also a weak version of one of the PC Computing type magazines . . . From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 11:07:57 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> References: <609327453BAD@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <60EB219529C1@ifrsys.com> > > trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's > Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... > > - glenn > > > I dunno. I think it had something to do with Orthodontia (or something). jeff From groberts at mitre.org Fri May 16 10:56:05 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705161533.KAA29667@zen.mathcs.rhodes.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970516115605.007d6980@mail90> that didn't take long. congrat's (1/2 point off for misspelling calisthenics). I have vol's 4 & 5 of the compendium which cover 1979 and 1980. 1980 issues were big on Apple II, Northstar, CP/M, UCSD pascal and of course source code for Ron Cain's original "small C" for the 8080. in '79 i see references to the 6800 microprocessor, KIM, COSMAC and other early SBC's, PROM burning, SWTPC, Z80 disassembler, etc. fun stuff. - glenn At 10:32 AM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >Glenn Roberts wrote: >>trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's >>Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... > >Peering through the haze of long lost memories (delay line and core) >I see a title something like: > >Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calesthnics [sp?] and Orthodontia: >Running Light without Overbyte > >To my great regret, though, I don't own any copies from back then. > >Brian L. Stuart > > > > From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 16 11:13:26 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > i have many of the older Bytes (late 70's). those were high quality > content for any microcomputer enthusiast. I threw out most of my issues > from the mid to late 80's (after pulling out useful articles including all > the Steve Ciarcia columns!). Also have two of the compendiums of early Dr. > Dobb's that are chock full of stuff like assembly listings and construction > blueprints. > > trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's > Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From spc at armigeron.com Fri May 16 12:01:14 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> from "Glenn Roberts" at May 16, 97 10:53:42 am Message-ID: <199705161701.NAA22821@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Glenn Roberts once stated: > > trivia question (easy): what was the original full name of Dr. Dobb's > Journal? and (bonus question) what was it's subtitle? Answer later... Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calestentics and Orthodontia: Running Light Without Overbyte. -spc (Kant spel werth a darn) From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 13:01:43 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970516105342.007d71b0@mail90> Message-ID: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> > > If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) > > Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia > > Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte > > -jim > --- > jimw@agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > Hrrumph! It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you good, you survived! Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". jeff From gram at cnct.com Fri May 16 12:42:45 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Gas plasma displays In-Reply-To: <199705160136.AA25025@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > IBM once made some awesome terminals, mostly for the 30xx mainframes. > They were quite large and had a fantastic resolution - I seem to remember > them being able to display four _nice_ looking terminal windows without > overlap. I think this was in the early 1980s timeframe. IBM 3290 Terminal. Equivalent to four 3270 series terminals. There's one within twenty feet of my desk at Prudential. I wish it could be used as ASCII terminals -- it's look dynomite attached to my sundry Unix and Linux boxen. But it's only good with SNA. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Fri May 16 12:59:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > Hrrumph! > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you > good, you survived! > > Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, > pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". Its totally fricken pathetic, isn't it? I remember when whole operating systems resided in less than 64K. Now, you need 64 megs for all the pretty GUI shit and sound clips. Totally pathetic. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri May 16 14:18:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at May 16, 97 12:01:43 pm Message-ID: <9705161818.AA09703@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 418 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970516/e0fda99f/attachment-0001.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Fri May 16 14:22:48 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Call for Help: Retrieve files from 14" DEC platters Message-ID: <199705161920.MAA19666@mx3.u.washington.edu> I'll post the results to this news group. I've been out of touch for the last couple days, so I don't know what plans have been made so far. As I said before: the response from this list has been fantastic. Another piece of classic computing history will be rescued from oblivion and made available for users everywhere (via the emulator project). -Matt P > > You can help preserve a bit of history. > [...] > > I don't have a VAX handy, so I can't help, but would you please > notify > this list if you succeed in reading the data? Things like this don't > happen > every day. :-) > > Alexios > > From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 16 14:13:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <9705161818.AA09703@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) > > > > > > Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia > > > > > > Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte > > The very first issue actually reads "Dr. Dobbs Journal of > Tiny Basic Calisthenics and Orthodontia." The first couple > years of issues heavily concentrate on Tiny Basic. After that > they were a heavy promoter of Tiny C. > The original plan for DDJ was it was to run a total of 3 issues to discuss Tiny BASIC. People liked the magazine and so they decided to continue publishing it. Last Thursday I got bound volumes 1-9 (minus 7) of DDJ. It is a lot of fun reading these. Recrecational computing was an adventure back then. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Fri May 16 15:08:20 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > If my memory is not failing me (more than usual) > > > > Dr. Dobbs Journal of Computer Calisthenics and Orthodontia > > > > Subtitle: Running Lite without Overbyte > > Hrrumph! > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. Perhaps it should not be considered so much "amazing", as quietly reassuring... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri May 16 16:58:39 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: References: <615348867026@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <622C2700018C@ifrsys.com> > > Hrrumph! > > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > Perhaps it should not be considered so much "amazing", as quietly > reassuring... > > -jim > --- Good point, Jim. There _are_ pockets of sanity on the modern computer landscape (this mailing list being one). jeff From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri May 16 18:30:53 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: IBM 6151 Message-ID: <970516193040_-929639513@emout09.mail.aol.com> I dont know if this machine qualifies for discussion, but i know nothing about this model, and perhaps someone does. Its an IBM, and the model number is 6151 and appears to be in a slightly modified IBM AT case. it has an led display and a 5.25 drive and non standard connectors inthe back. i get nothing but a blinking cursor on powerup and some incrementing numbers on the led display. i think it might have sort of unix on it, as a piece of paper has the root passwoid taped to it. anyone know what this is? what is worth $20? david From spc at armigeron.com Fri May 16 22:27:24 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 16, 97 10:59:36 am Message-ID: <199705170327.XAA24160@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > Hrrumph! > > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > > > Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you > > good, you survived! > > > > Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, > > pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". > > Its totally fricken pathetic, isn't it? I remember when whole operating > systems resided in less than 64K. Now, you need 64 megs for all the > pretty GUI shit and sound clips. Totally pathetic. > But you can do more with more memory, in less time. Now, it's easier to run, for instance, statistical analysis on large amounts of text and use that to generate interresting, if somewhat bizarre, text. Or edit large images, or even do sound manipulation. I remember in 1985 or 86, programming my Coco (with 64K of RAM - upgraded myself from 16K) to do a 6-bit sound sample. I could get a reconizable sample of 30 seconds (each sample took 32k), and only reconizable because I knew what to listen for. A decent sample lasted only 2 or 3 seconds. Still though, that doesn't excuse the bloat of today's operating systems. Just wished that the operating systems could reside in under 64K (actually, the kernel for QNX on a Pentium weighs in under 10K). -spc (Sigh) From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 02:41:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705170327.XAA24160@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > I remember in 1985 or 86, programming my Coco (with 64K of RAM - upgraded > myself from 16K) to do a 6-bit sound sample. I could get a reconizable > sample of 30 seconds (each sample took 32k), and only reconizable because I > knew what to listen for. A decent sample lasted only 2 or 3 seconds. HA! I could do 40 seconds in 48K on my Apple ][+ at 1-bit and it was pretty legible. Didn't need no silly pentium and EDO memory for that. If I sampled it into my 1 meg RAM card on my //e I could get five (count'em FIVE) whole minutes! > > Still though, that doesn't excuse the bloat of today's operating systems. > Just wished that the operating systems could reside in under 64K (actually, > the kernel for QNX on a Pentium weighs in under 10K). I believe it's around 4K. And they have an impressive micro-GUI called Photon which operates in under a meg. It easily compares to Windows. I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. What next? A 500meg operating system? The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us Fri May 16 20:52:22 1997 From: mojaveg at ridgecrest.ca.us (mojaveg@ridgecrest.ca.us) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: (from Sam Ismail ) Message-ID: <24705fd4.411b4-mojaveg@mojaveg.ridgecrest.ca.us> Hi Sam, > > Hrrumph! > > It's amazing that the _Journal_ still exists at all! It's (original) > > philosophy is the complete antithesis of current industry practise. > > > > Used to be, if you could write small, fast code, not only were you > > good, you survived! > > > > Nowadays, its "A couple of meg here, a couple of meg there, > > pretty soon we're talking about real memory usage". > > Its totally fricken pathetic, isn't it? I remember when whole operating > systems resided in less than 64K. Now, you need 64 megs for all the > pretty GUI stuff and sound clips. Totally pathetic. There was a recent posting to a newsgroup wherein the author claimed one couldn't compile a program with a particular compiler in less than 8 Mbytes. The fact that people were doing it with 2 and 4 Mbytes was apparently of no relevance. It brought to mind that I have a Pascal compiler for an older machine that works very well in 24 Kbytes. Something has gotten completely out of whack. From spc at armigeron.com Sat May 17 11:05:13 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 17, 97 00:41:26 am Message-ID: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Sam Ismail once stated: > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > > > Still though, that doesn't excuse the bloat of today's operating systems. > > Just wished that the operating systems could reside in under 64K (actually, > > the kernel for QNX on a Pentium weighs in under 10K). > > I believe it's around 4K. And they have an impressive micro-GUI called > Photon which operates in under a meg. It easily compares to Windows. > > I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap > space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. > What next? A 500meg operating system? > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). > The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk > was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything > comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). > I've heard incredible things about the Apple ][ Disk drive. One, that it took only 5 ICs for the hardware, and now only 256 bytes of code to read from it? I'd really like to see both the schematics and the code. That's just incredible. -spc (Also remembers writing code to drive the serial port under the Coco ... ) From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat May 17 12:20:58 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> from "Captain Napalm" at May 17, 97 12:05:13 pm Message-ID: <9705171620.AA08251@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1284 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970517/c2b5aa1c/attachment-0001.ksh From MPritchard at ensemble.net Sat May 17 11:47:22 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives Message-ID: <199705171645.JAA13571@mx5.u.washington.edu> Sam, That's not entirely true. ;-) I'm being paid to write optimized assembly code for an upcoming game from (of all people) Microsoft. 12,000 lines of hand tuned assembly, with some truely wonderful gems of small, efficient code in it. I must admit though that we had an editor from one of the gaming magazines come by the other day and mention that the only other gam company still writing serious assembly was NovaLogic... It does seems like a dying art. But I'm off topic. What I wanted to bring up was Creative Computing Magazine , pre 1981. I was only 10 - 14 years old during that time period, but I remember the content as being fantastic. There were fewer rules and a much more hardcore audience then. Does anyone remeber "Computer Myths Explained" and the great line drawings of robots and wierd machines that took on a life of their own. I'd love to get a collection of those drawings... -Matt Pritchard mpritchard@ensemble.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 1997 2:41 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Magazine retrospectives > > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk > > was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything > comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). > > Sam > From danjo at xnet.com Sat May 17 15:41:40 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <9705171620.AA08251@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I've heard incredible things about the Apple ][ Disk drive. One, that it > > took only 5 ICs for the hardware, and now only 256 bytes of code to read > > from it? I'd really like to see both the schematics and the code. That's > > just incredible. > > The 256-byte-long bootstrap for the Disk ][ is really quite long, > as the very simple hardware needs extensive help from the software > to read anything from the disk. The very complex hardware/software > interaction is well-documented in Worth's and Lechner's _Beneath > Apple DOS_, still available new from Quality Computers. The > schematics are published in the back of both the Apple DOS 3.2 > and 3.3 manuals, though the schematics themselves don't do you > a lot of good unless you know the programming of the bipolar > PROM's used in the controller's state machine. > > For comparison, my S-100 boxes with WD1771-derived controllers have > bootstraps that are just over a dozen bytes long. I thought the WD-17XX and WD-19XX chips were programed to automatically get the first track/sector on reset. I seem to remember that the other controller chips from that time also did this. I always thought this was the ONLY way to do it 8-) I have often thought that if all the peripherials (did I spell that right?) did the same thing (at reset) and made thier *internal drivers* available at boot up - it would be a much easier world with IO. You would just have to set a switch on the IO card/device to tell it what CPU it is working with and then be done with it. > For many PDP-11 disk devices, the bootstrap is only a couple words. > When you have to toggle the bootstrap in through the front panel every > time you boot, a short bootstrap is extremely desirable. > Of course, in these cases, there is substantially more intelligence > in the device and controller than there is in the Disk ][. Oh I don't know 8-) Some of them seem pretty stupid when I try to talk to them. They don't seem to understand that they have to work the way I WANT them to 8-) > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) BC From william at ans.net Sat May 17 18:40:07 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Help with old SGI In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199705172340.AA23803@interlock.ans.net> I dragged home a big old Motorola based SGI today, and will need a great deal of help repairing it. Do any of you have any information/knowledge of the IRIS series of machines (specifically IRIS 2500T)? I am almost completely stupid when it comes to SGIs, and the Web is not much help (all FAQs deal with the 4D/ machines). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:34:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Help with old SGI In-Reply-To: <199705172340.AA23803@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I dragged home a big old Motorola based SGI today, and will need a great > deal of help repairing it. Do any of you have any information/knowledge You're stoked. I was at an auction a few weeks back and there were four of them, and I was hoping to get one but I had to leave before the auctioneer got to them. I found out later they went for at least a $1000 each anyway, which I definitely would not have paid. Anyway, don't have any help for you. I heard that the graphics for Jurrasic Park were rendered on those though. Anyone care to back this up? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca Sat May 17 23:53:09 1997 From: scott at walde.cprompt.sk.ca (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Osborne computer (fwd) Message-ID: I don't think I have to add anything to this email I recieved today... Can anyone out there save it? ttfn srw ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:09:49 +0100 From: Mike O'Neill To: walde@dlcwest.com Subject: Osborne computer Hi and I wonder if you can help. I have and Osborne computer (I'm not sure which one but it is an 80 col display with 2 x 185k drives and EProms fitted to hot it up and allow burning in of favourite software such as Wordstar and dBaseII). I don't want to trash the machine and am trying to find out a contact in UK who might be interested in giving it a home as a piece of computing history. The machine still works and is in good order although I havn'e fired it up for some time. Any help you can give would be appreciated. I can be reached at mikeon@globalnet.co.uk. Hope you can help and thanks in anticipation. Best wishes Mike O'Neill From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:45:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Videotrax > This was an interesting system. It consisted of a board which plugged > into a PC and some software which allowed backups of a system using a > VCR. They claimed to be able to get up to 80MB per tape. They also sold > a VCR which allowed unattended I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:50:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <9705171620.AA08251@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > For comparison, my S-100 boxes with WD1771-derived controllers have > bootstraps that are just over a dozen bytes long. For many > PDP-11 disk devices, the bootstrap is only a couple words. When > you have to toggle the bootstrap in through the front panel every > time you boot, a short bootstrap is extremely desirable. Of > course, in these cases, there is substantially more intelligence > in the device and controller than there is in the Disk ][. Exactly. The Apple ][e bootstrap does a lot of work to read the boot sector off the disk. It creates the 6&2 encoding table, looks for the boot sector and reads it, decodes it and then jumps to it, all in less than 256 bytes. Impressive as all hell. Woz is a god damn GOD. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:53:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705171645.JAA13571@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > Sam, > That's not entirely true. ;-) I'm being paid to write optimized > assembly code for an upcoming game from (of all people) Microsoft. > 12,000 lines of hand tuned assembly, with some truely wonderful gems of > small, efficient code in it. I must admit though that we had an editor Well, then you are the exception and I salute you. I would actually prefer writing machine code programs on my apple ][ these days but there's no money in it. > the only other gam company still writing serious assembly was > NovaLogic... It does seems like a dying art. Only if you let it die. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:47:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap > > space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. > > What next? A 500meg operating system? > > > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x > series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in > 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). Yeah, it was a version less than 1.00. I haven't played with Linux for a while and didn't know that the kernal has fattened up since 1.0. I guess I better stop bragging to people that I can run linux in less than 4 megabytes. > > The Apple disk conrtoller ROM which read the boot sector off of a disk > > was 256 bytes! Amazing piece of code. You won't find anything > > comparable today, at least in any mainstream software (ie. windows). > > > I've heard incredible things about the Apple ][ Disk drive. One, that it > took only 5 ICs for the hardware, and now only 256 bytes of code to read > from it? I'd really like to see both the schematics and the code. That's > just incredible. The Apple ][ was an incredible machine. One beautiful hack on top of the next. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Sun May 18 00:05:40 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Help with old SGI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705180505.AA16698@interlock.ans.net> > You're stoked. I was at an auction a few weeks back and there were four > of them, and I was hoping to get one but I had to leave before the > auctioneer got to them. I found out later they went for at least a $1000 > each anyway, which I definitely would not have paid. This one was free. It seems to be about ten years old, and was previously doing ocean wave anaylsis or some such thing at the University of Chicago. The disk (14" Fujitsu Eagle 424) has been parted out, and someone raped some of the chips from the boards. Of course, I do not have IRIX (the operating system) or any documentation. It looks like I have another long term project! > Anyway, don't have any help for you. I heard that the graphics for > Jurrasic Park were rendered on those though. Anyone care to back this up? No doubt the movie was not done on IRISes - way too slow. Most likely the movie people used MIPS based SGIs, with all of those fancy graphics coprocessors. SGI adandonded Motorola 68K processors sometime in the late-1980s, probably for the same reason Sun and HP did. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Sat May 17 23:55:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Digital RX-02 dual 8" drive unit Message-ID: I picked up a Digital RX-02 dual 8" drive unit today that I have absolutely no use for but figured someone in this discussion group would want. Please contact me personally if you are interested in taking it off my hands (dastar@crl.com). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Sun May 18 02:56:46 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 17 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > > > I used to run my linux box on 4megs. Worked fine (with a decent swap > > > space). There's no need for the bloat which windows and its ilk covets. > > > What next? A 500meg operating system? > > > > > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x > > series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in > > 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). > > Yeah, it was a version less than 1.00. I haven't played with Linux for a > while and didn't know that the kernal has fattened up since 1.0. I guess > I better stop bragging to people that I can run linux in less than 4 > megabytes. I don't know Sam, I ran Linux 1.2.13 in 4 MB for quite some time. It got REAL SLOW when I ran X-Windows but hell, it did run! Now I got 2.0.29 and 8 MB and run Linux in a couple of Virtual Consoles and DOSEmu in another (only when I need too!) and have one machine for a comm server (386DX40 with NO keyboard and NO video card - can NT even do that?!?!?!? I mean I know it won't run on a 386 with 8 MB but without Kb and Video??), my work machine (386DX33), and the *family* machine (486DX66) running WFW 3.11 all connected on the Internet (using IPMASQ) and running Samba to make WFW happy. I am pretty sure I can get 2.0.29 to run in 4 MB and a WHOLE LOTTA SWAP 8-) BC From transit at primenet.com Sun May 18 09:24:50 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > > Videotrax > > This was an interesting system. It consisted of a board which plugged > > into a PC and some software which allowed backups of a system using a > > VCR. They claimed to be able to get up to 80MB per tape. They also sold > > a VCR which allowed unattended > > I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think > the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) > let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. I remember a similar system (Corvus Mirror) that we had in our undergraduate computer lab (UCSB, 1984-86 or so). I also remember someone doing a research project on document preservation by storing digitized copies of documents on a videotape with one of these backup devices. In both cases, there were problems with the reliability of the backups (seems that VHS tapes aren't such a great medium for data storage, anyway) From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Sun May 18 15:09:10 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Videotrax > > I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think > the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) > let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned them. Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move and the it was the easiest place to store it). So, if you live in the greater Seattle area and you see a good amount of the following show up when you're poking around, please let me know (I'm not as much concerned about the equipment as I am about my addressbook, insurance folder, and vehicle registration.). Stolen: IBM 6360 disk drive, Macintosh, Mac 512, Box of CompuPro s-100 boards, Box of misc. manuals, Commodore DPS-1101 printer, TI99/4a expansion box, Turbo C64 disk drive, CBM 8050 dual disk drive, Atari 520ST, 2 commodore vic-1541 disk drives, 1 blue chip disk drive. I'm sure the thieves thought they really scored but I'm guessing it will soon turn up at a thrift store or pawn shop when they can't move it. Some of the equipment may be blood-stained. I have mounted razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they found them when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite gratifying. ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From danjo at xnet.com Sun May 18 15:37:39 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > Videotrax > > I saw this system at AppleFest '89. It was pretty interesting. I think > > the problem with this system and why it never caught on is because: a) > > let's face it, hooking your computer to a VCR is lame and b) it was slow. I saw this in an Slpha Micro shop (headquarters?) in Irvine California back in - oh - 83?84?. It was neat *seeing* the data but as I understood it, everything had to be recorded 5+ times for ANY reliable data recovery. > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. I also remember either Byte of Dr. Dobb's doing this for a little while. I might be slipping tho. > Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night > and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move > and the it was the easiest place to store it). So, if you live in the > greater Seattle area and you see a good amount of the following show > up when you're poking around, please let me know (I'm not as much > concerned about the equipment as I am about my addressbook, insurance > folder, and vehicle registration.). Ouch! > Stolen: IBM 6360 disk drive, Macintosh, Mac 512, Box of CompuPro s-100 > boards, Box of misc. manuals, Commodore DPS-1101 printer, TI99/4a > expansion box, Turbo C64 disk drive, CBM 8050 dual disk drive, Atari > 520ST, 2 commodore vic-1541 disk drives, 1 blue chip disk drive. Naw - it will end up in the garbage 8-( > I'm sure the thieves thought they really scored but I'm guessing it > will soon turn up at a thrift store or pawn shop when they can't > move it. Some of the equipment may be blood-stained. I have mounted > razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they found them > when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite > gratifying. Sorry this took so long - I only have two fingers left to type with 8-) Damn - that's MEAN man!!! Probably gratifying - but even worse if someone called the cops on you for dealing drugs and the cops searched the car! You could/would get sued for attempted MURDER (if your cops are like our cops 8-( then beaten to some what of a mush - while trying to *escape* or *resisting* arrest!) Well, that's unless you are well know to your local constablary(sp). Other than that - Cool idea! Do you have a sticker in the window - Protected by Gillette or something 8-) BC From transit at primenet.com Sun May 18 17:21:14 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Bar code readers (was: Re: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. There were at least two of these a. Oscar Databar, late 1993 and b. Cauzin Softstrip, more like 1985-6 From dastar at crl.com Sun May 18 19:18:28 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Digital RX-02 dual 8" drive unit Message-ID: Hmmm, I don't know if it was caused by last night's drunken stupor, but the e-mail from the person interested in the RX-02 got lost somehow. If you were the person interetsed, could you pleae e-mail me again? Sorry about that. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun May 18 19:15:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: strange storage devices In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970518091327.00ddbccc@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. Yes, I very much remember these and very much remember it always being on my wish list of things to add to my Apple. I never did get one. I posted a WTB ad on an Apple newsgroup a while back for one and some guy responded but he gave me this bullshit "tell me what you're willing to pay" line for it and so I told him $25 and he never replied. Anyway, if anyone's got one and wants it to go to a good home, let me know. > Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night > and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move > and the it was the easiest place to store it). So, if you live in the > greater Seattle area and you see a good amount of the following show > up when you're poking around, please let me know (I'm not as much > concerned about the equipment as I am about my addressbook, insurance > folder, and vehicle registration.). > > Stolen: IBM 6360 disk drive, Macintosh, Mac 512, Box of CompuPro s-100 > boards, Box of misc. manuals, Commodore DPS-1101 printer, TI99/4a > expansion box, Turbo C64 disk drive, CBM 8050 dual disk drive, Atari > 520ST, 2 commodore vic-1541 disk drives, 1 blue chip disk drive. Now this is some seriously fucked up shit. > I'm sure the thieves thought they really scored but I'm guessing it > will soon turn up at a thrift store or pawn shop when they can't > move it. Some of the equipment may be blood-stained. I have mounted > razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they found them > when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite > gratifying. HAHAHHA! That's great. Well, I hope you get your stuff back, but at least you made the assholes suffer. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From BigLouS at aol.com Sun May 18 21:49:35 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Magazine retrospectives Message-ID: <970518224935_-129887119@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-18 01:02:33 EDT, Sam writes: > Exactly. The Apple ][e bootstrap does a lot of work to read the boot > sector off the disk. It creates the 6&2 encoding table, looks for the > boot sector and reads it, decodes it and then jumps to it, all in less > than 256 bytes. Impressive as all hell. Woz is a god damn GOD. AMEN brother. Jobs who? Lou From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Sun May 18 23:34:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970518213409.00e37e84@agora.rdrop.com> At 01:09 PM 5/18/97 -0700, you wrote: > >On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the >"scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it >was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in >Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read >and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned >them. It's called a Causin 'Strip Reader'. Cable and software kits were available for both PC compatable and Apple II series computers. I have one in my collection, but with no software at present. (have not got a picture on the web page yet either - foo!) Have been trying to track down the software for either system... >Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night >and a large load of classic equipment was stolen (I'm preparing to move >and the it was the easiest place to store it). Aw heck! ('course, I do the same...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From gram at cnct.com Mon May 19 08:14:29 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: Bloated code? In-Reply-To: <199705171605.MAA26361@armigeron.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 May 1997, Captain Napalm wrote: > Which version of Linux were you running? Sounds like either the 0.9x > series or maybe the 1.0 series. I would be slighty hesitent to run 1.2 in > 4M and 2.0 in 8M (2.0 really bloated up). The "bloating up" of the Linux 2.0 kernel depends on several factors. One of them is whether you modularize device drivers etc. In the previous kernel releases, all of your device drivers had to be compiled in, whether you used them regularly or not. With 2.0 you can make them a permanent part of the kernel or you can compile them as modules to be loaded on demand. Yes, if you make _everything_ part of the kernel, the thing will be huge. If you're running without networking, SCSI, sound card, multi-serial, CD-ROM -- just ST506 or IDE drives, Linux 2.x can be smaller and faster than 1.x, and can be happy in four meg of RAM. And if you need some of these features only occasionally, such as to load software from CD or ethernet, the driver module can be loaded, used, then dropped. My old 386DX25 has been _much_ happier since I upgraded to 2.0, and yes, I have tested its operation with only four meg (it has eight normally). This machine is _not_ being used for X -- a matter of CPU speed on that part. It's semi-retired to just dial out with a modem, collect Usenet news, and make that news available to the rest of the basement via NFS. It's stable and I do not foresee much more upgrading of that machine -- it's not a classic in any way, shape or form and the job it's doing is essentially a sinecure for long and faithful service. It was the machine I started hacking Linux on about five years ago with a stack of SLS floppies (5.25" 1.2MB) more than six inches high. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Mon May 19 11:36:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: stuff for trade Message-ID: Well, I had a good weekend, acquiring lots of stuff too numerous to list. I got a genuine IBM PC (this time for sure), an Atari 1040ST, a Visual Computer Inc. Commuter "lap-top" (circa 1983 with a small flip-up LCD display, runs DOS), a Tandy TRS-80 Model 2000, TI Silent 700 Portable Data Terminal, Atari 800XL... I also picked up some extras for trading. Currently I have a couple original IBM PCs and PC XTs and a couple TI Silent 700 protable data terminals (with acoustic couplers). One of the IBM PCs is an oddity: it is actually labelled the IBM 3270 Personal Computer and inside it has three cards connected together to form the video card. It has one 9-pin male 'D' connector on the back (like a standard monochrome monitor adaptor). I was told this was for an enhanced graphics monitor. It also had a card in the slot next to the CPU. The card has a CPU on it, and has a ribbon cable going from the card to the socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be. Any ideas what this is? I don't know if I want to trade this just yet. But if anyone is interested in a genuine IBM PC for trade, I can get more. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Mon May 19 17:49:47 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: ADDS Multivision Message-ID: <16A354B7DF6@holly.ninja.ml.org> Hi! I have in my basement a genuine ADDS Multivision machine. It's runs a multitasking version of CP/M, called MUON, and used to run brilliantly until I accidentally ran the SYSGEN utility which, I found out later, overwrote the config information. It now refuses to boot, saying "Stack error" or something equally useful :-( Has anybody heard of this machine before - or, even better, does anybody have boot disks for MUON v2.3 ?? I would phone up ADDS, but they're in America and I don't particularly fancy all the international phone calls from the UK! I don't have their address or fax number or anything - and that's not even mentioning the fact that quite probably, nobody there will know a thing about this machine! :-( If any of you can help in any way, it would be much appreciated!! Thanks, ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From starling at umr.edu Mon May 19 12:22:54 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (Starling) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at May 19, 97 09:36:00 am Message-ID: <199705191722.MAA25765@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > One of the IBM PCs is an oddity: it is actually labelled the IBM 3270 > Personal Computer and inside it has three cards connected together to form > the video card. It has one 9-pin male 'D' connector on the back (like a > standard monochrome monitor adaptor). I was told this was for an enhanced > graphics monitor. It also had a card in the slot next to the CPU. The > card has a CPU on it, and has a ribbon cable going from the card to the > socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be. Any ideas what this > is? I don't know if I want to trade this just yet. But if anyone is > interested in a genuine IBM PC for trade, I can get more. I've heard about these before. It's no graphics adapter. Boot the sucker up and most likely you won't see DOS. It's an IBM 370 mainframe emulator. Here's what I've heard: There should be a "P" card that should have two Motorola 68000s, both modified in varying ways and produced under license by IBM on it, plus a 8087. It should attach to the M card that has 512K of ram on it. And then there's a PC3277-EM card that is just a 3270 terminal emulator that should attach to the mainframe. I don't know much more about this, since I'm just getting all this information second hand. It's allegedly in a book called _Upgrading and Repairing PCs_, but I don't know the author. It'd be very interesting if this sucker could run VM/SP like a real 370 and stuff. I learned assembly on those damn things... back when my university still had dumb terminals in the computer labs. Heh. chris From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Mon May 19 13:01:39 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: ADDS Multivision In-Reply-To: <16A354B7DF6@holly.ninja.ml.org> Message-ID: <199705191801.NAA18585@fudge.uchicago.edu> "Jonathan Hunter" said, > I would phone up ADDS, but they're in America and I don't > particularly fancy all the international phone calls from the UK! > I don't have their address or fax number or anything - and that's not > even mentioning the fact that quite probably, nobody there will know > a thing about this machine! :-( According to http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/adds_viewpoint_news.txt ADDS was bought by NCR, merged into AT&T, and then spun off again as SunRiver Data Systems. Here are the addresses and phone numbers from that page: SunRiver Data Systems, Inc. 100 Marcus Blvd. P.O. Box 18001 Hauppauge, NY 11788-3762 voice: +1 516/342-7400 ext 7259 voice: +31-24-352-9001 WATS: 1-800-231-5445 ext 7259 fax: +1 516/342-7378 BBS: +1 407/333-8326 (8 bits, No Parity, 1 Stop bit) Eric From dastar at crl.com Mon May 19 13:17:50 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:38 2005 Subject: ADDS Multivision In-Reply-To: <16A354B7DF6@holly.ninja.ml.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Jonathan Hunter wrote: > I have in my basement a genuine ADDS Multivision machine. It's runs a > multitasking version of CP/M, called MUON, and used to run > brilliantly until I accidentally ran the SYSGEN utility which, I > found out later, overwrote the config information. It now refuses to > boot, saying "Stack error" or something equally useful :-( > > I would phone up ADDS, but they're in America and I don't > particularly fancy all the international phone calls from the UK! > I don't have their address or fax number or anything - and that's not > even mentioning the fact that quite probably, nobody there will know > a thing about this machine! :-( Not only that, but I don't even think there will be anyone there to answer the phone. Is this company even still around? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marcw at lightside.com Mon May 19 15:15:26 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: stuff for trade Message-ID: <199705192307.QAA14816@covina.lightside.com> > > It's an IBM 370 mainframe emulator. Here's what I've heard: > > There should be a "P" card that should have two Motorola 68000s, both > modified in varying ways and produced under license by IBM on it, plus a > 8087. It should attach to the M card that has 512K of ram on it. And > then there's a PC3277-EM card that is just a 3270 terminal emulator that > should attach to the mainframe. > > I don't know much more about this, since I'm just getting all this > information second hand. It's allegedly in a book called _Upgrading and > Repairing PCs_, but I don't know the author. > I have that book. It's by Scott Mueller and the one I have is 1988. Here's what it says (to add to your info): "...All this hardware is run by a program called the 3270 PC Control Program. This combination can support up to seven concurrent activities: one local PC DOS session, four remote mainfram sessions, and two local electronic notepads. With the assistance of the 3270 PC Control Program, information can be copied between windows, except that a PC DOS window may not receive information. " The cards used are: 3270 System Adapter (communication 'tween the 3270 PC & 3274) Display Adapter (replaces PC's mono/cga card. No graphics unless...) Extended Graphics Adapter - XGA (required to get graphics) Programmed Symbols adapter (provides graphics with 3278/3279 stations) IBM also had an XT 370 that used the PC 370-P, PC 370-M, and PC 3277-EM cards. The P card emulates the 370 instruction set. This card has the Motorola 68K cpu's. It also has the 8087. The M card is the 512K mentioned above. And the 3277 card hooks up to the S/370 mainframe. So I reckon you have the XT 370. The price of the 370 attachments was $3,000 over the price of the XT this stuff had to go into. Jeez! Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From pcoad at crl.com Mon May 19 19:21:13 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: <199705192307.QAA14816@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997 marcw@lightside.com wrote: > IBM also had an XT 370 that used the PC 370-P, PC 370-M, and > PC 3277-EM cards. > The P card emulates the 370 instruction set. This card has the > Motorola 68K cpu's. It also has the 8087. > The M card is the 512K mentioned above. > And the 3277 card hooks up to the S/370 mainframe. > > So I reckon you have the XT 370. > The price of the 370 attachments was $3,000 over the price of the > XT this stuff had to go into. Jeez! > Compared to to a real 370, a console, terminals, DASDs, and what not, this price is not too bad. Add the fact that the XT 370 likely did not require a riser floor, motor-generator, air conditioning, and a square kilofoot of floor space, and it starts to look even better. I wonder why they were not more popular. Run JCL on your desktop machine! This may have a strange appeal to me, but how many people really want to run MVS on a desktop machine? I'd really be interested in knowing what people used these machines for other than super-3278s. Anyone know what happened to OpenMVS? (Feels like Unix, works like MVS) IBM was pushing it in some Unix rags a few years ago. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Mon May 19 20:14:17 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3380fa12.247821@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 19 May 1997 17:21:13 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >Compared to to a real 370, a console, terminals, DASDs, and what not, >this price is not too bad. Add the fact that the XT 370 likely did >not require a riser floor, motor-generator, air conditioning, and a >square kilofoot of floor space, and it starts to look even better. > >I wonder why they were not more popular. Run JCL on your desktop machine! >This may have a strange appeal to me, but how many people really want to >run MVS on a desktop machine? I'd really be interested in knowing what >people used these machines for other than super-3278s. I used an AT-370 about ten years ago, but not long enough to remember anything at all about it. We (fed government) had software that ran on a 360 and I needed to run it in the office. (but never did!) _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From dastar at crl.com Mon May 19 20:49:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: <199705192307.QAA14816@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997 marcw@lightside.com wrote: > I have that book. It's by Scott Mueller and the one I have is 1988. > Here's what it says (to add to your info): > > "...All this hardware is run by a program called the 3270 PC Control > Program. This combination can support up to seven concurrent > activities: one local PC DOS session, four remote mainfram sessions, > and two local electronic notepads. With the assistance of the 3270 > PC Control Program, information can be copied between windows, > except that a PC DOS window may not receive information. " > > The cards used are: > 3270 System Adapter (communication 'tween the 3270 PC & 3274) > Display Adapter (replaces PC's mono/cga card. No graphics unless...) > Extended Graphics Adapter - XGA (required to get graphics) > Programmed Symbols adapter (provides graphics with 3278/3279 stations) > > > IBM also had an XT 370 that used the PC 370-P, PC 370-M, and > PC 3277-EM cards. > The P card emulates the 370 instruction set. This card has the > Motorola 68K cpu's. It also has the 8087. > The M card is the 512K mentioned above. > And the 3277 card hooks up to the S/370 mainframe. > > So I reckon you have the XT 370. > The price of the 370 attachments was $3,000 over the price of the > XT this stuff had to go into. Jeez! Awesome. What a cool find. Speaking of 3270 stuff, does anyone have a use for any 3279 terminals and IBM terminal servers, as well as some IBM printers (can't remember the model number, maybe 3287)? I know a guy who has some that will go to scrap unless someone wants to pay for the shipping. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Sun May 18 23:27:50 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 18 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. Oh yeah... I remeber that. Vaguely. Can't remember its name, though. However, it wasn't an Apple II only thing. I distinctly remember reading that it was available for a number of machines (that impressed me back in that glorious age of complete incompatibility). :-) A couple of mags were publishing strips for that thingy. > Also, some personal bad news - my van was broken into on Friday night > and a large load of classic equipment was stolen Ouch! Nightmare come true... OTOH, I just want to *see* the expression on the face of anyone braking into my place and finding it stacked from floor to ceiling with hardware. Then, of course, I'd love to see their expression when they try to fence the goodies. > I have mounted razor blades across the bottom of my car stereo and they > found them when trying to rip it out ;). The dash was very bloody - quite > gratifying. Excellent! The Bastard Classic Computer Collector From Hell strikes! I think you ought to have mounted razor blades on some of the machines as well. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Mon May 19 22:17:22 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <338214ba.7071813@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Mon, 19 May 1997 05:27:50 +0100 (BST), someone said: > On the line of interesting storage devices - does anyone remember the > "scanner" that read strips of encoded data. I don't remember what it > was called, but for a little while they printed some of these strips in > Nibble. I think it was an Apple II only thing. I guess you could read > and print these strips and they generated programs when you scanned > them. There was a thing called Oscar for the TI-99/4A and other systems. Some magazines printed both human-readable printed listings and Oscar-readable code. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From danjo at xnet.com Mon May 19 23:45:34 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Preserve the other stuff as well - DEC STEPS IN! In-Reply-To: <9705092153.AA20915@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Looky what I just found! (I am sure others have seen it too. 8-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: SEE_SIG@NOSPAM.COM (Bruce Lane) >Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,comp.sys.dec.micro,alt.sys.pdp11 >Subject: My God... DEC actually GIVING this away?!? >Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 02:15:22 GMT >Message-ID: <33840823.113858369@news.wizards.net> If anyone feels that posting this to three groups constitutes spamming, well, all I can say in my defense is that I felt all the DECfolk who read these groups should know the good news. ;-) Check out this little snippet I got from the mailing list PORT-VAX for NetBSD... -=-=- -=-=- >Return-Path: >From: Gordon Zaft >Subject: hobbyist VMS licenses >To: port-vax@netbsd.org >Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:12:52 -0700 (MST) >Sender: port-vax-owner@NetBSD.ORG >Delivered-To: port-vax@NetBSD.ORG This isn't strictly a NetBSD thing but DEC and DECUS have just announced that they are making hobbyist licenses for VAX/VMS available for FREE through DECUS. Check the following URL for more info: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ GZ -- Gordon C. Zaft zaft@artisoft.com Product Configuration Coordinator Opinions are my own. Artisoft, Inc. +1 (520) 670-7050 (FAX) http://www.u.arizona.edu/~zaft -=-=- -=-=- Personally, I think this is TERRIFIC news! Both DEC and DECUS deserve, in my eyes, a big round of applause for this. Anyway... I've already signed up for DECUS and checked out the Web site. Soon as I get my DECUS ID number, I'm ordering both license and media (the media kit on CD-ROM is only $30.00). Banzai! OpenVMS Lives!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK Who has a 11/780 they don't need!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BC From dastar at crl.com Tue May 20 02:38:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4 Message-ID: Anyone ever heard of a Kaypro 4? I know what the Kaypro is, but this specific model? When was it released and what does it run? What type of CPU does it have? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From eifs at thenet.co.uk Tue May 20 03:37:45 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Radionic In-Reply-To: <338214ba.7071813@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Can anyone help me with an old computer I found at a car boot sale recently? (I find it hard to leave them there to their fate). It's called a Radionic R1001. The odd thing about it is it has ten 3.5mm jacks on it, six along the back and four down the side, none of which can be for cassette leads as it has them attatched already. Anyone know anything about it?? Eifion Bedford - Owner of ZX80, ZX81, Spectrums, QLs, Sinclair PC200, SAM Coupe, Z88, CBM64, BBC 'B', Electron, Amiga 4000. Oh yes, and a Pentium PC (sorry). From David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov Tue May 20 07:47:11 1997 From: David_A._Vandenbroucke at hud.gov (David_A._Vandenbroucke@hud.gov) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Kaypro 4 Message-ID: <9704208641.AA864141503@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> >Anyone ever heard of a Kaypro 4? I know what the Kaypro is, but this >specific model? When was it released and what does it run? What type of >CPU does it have? Gee. One I can answer. I'm not a collector like you folks, but I did use Kaypros and other CP/M machines for about a decade. The Kaypro 4 is your basic Kaypro transportable with a Z80 CPU (probably 4 MHz) and 64K RAM. It has two DSDD floppies which give 390K each in Kaypro's format, which is where the "4" comes from. At some point in 1984 or later, Kaypro switched from using Roman to Arabic numerals. Thus the 4, as opposed to the IV, is a later machine. Some of the later machines had a built in 300 bps modem, but if memory serves those all had "X" suffixes, as in Kaypro 2X (which paradoxically also had DSDD floppies, not the SSDDs of the Kaypro II). --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke@hud.gov From kunz at germany.cerf.net Tue May 20 07:43:42 1997 From: kunz at germany.cerf.net (Karlheinz Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Informations about Wang and Nixdorf Message-ID: <199705201243.OAA01349@cgi-sun1.germany.cerf.net.> Hi, I have a few old computers at home up and running, but without documentation. Does someone has information about the following systems or can point me to a source of information (servers, books, software) ? Vendor: System: Operating System: Wang OIS 140/III OIS 9.9 Nixdorf 8870 Niros DEC uVAX II netBSD Epson HX-20 Basic Hitachi 6805 developing system The uVAX is common, but Informations about the Wang and Nixdorf are hard to find. Thanks for any help, -- Karlheinz From gram at cnct.com Tue May 20 09:25:56 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Byte Jan 87 retrospective. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > Excellent! The Bastard Classic Computer Collector From Hell strikes! I > think you ought to have mounted razor blades on some of the machines as > well. Ah. Another fan of Simon Travaglia (an AIX sysadmin like myself). I remember back in '89 when the store for which I was performing tech support received the first thirty or so NCR "Heisenberg" (NCR used to use the names of famous scientists for their development code names) 80386sx low-profile desktop systems to reach the US from the factory in West Germany. It wasn't scheduled to be announced for another couple of months, but we had a _good_ customer that had pull in Dayton. It was obvious that the factory wasn't geared up for production on these beasts as yet -- the edges of the cases weren't milled. When we opened them up to add memory, disk, etc., we found lots of bloodstains and left no few of our own. Well, I'd always heard those Krauts were efficient about keeping things running on schedule. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Tue May 20 10:08:08 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: stuff for trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > Anyone know what happened to OpenMVS? (Feels like Unix, works like MVS) > IBM was pushing it in some Unix rags a few years ago. It exists. I haven't used it much, as I babysit RS/6000 systems, not big iron. It does have a _few_ places where an old Unix hack like myself will trip over mainframe conventions that I have little experience with. But it runs here at the Prudential in Roseland NJ. Hell, it even supports Samba -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 20 22:04:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: Mail Basics Message-ID: ClassicCmp Regular Posting Mailing Lists and How to Talk to the List Robot Last Rev: 5/2/97 This message is posted with frequency proportional to subscription rate (or monthly). Point of contact: Bill Whitson (bcw@u.washington.edu) Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. That's the basics. If you need to know more just drop me a line at bcw@u.washington.edu. Some requests may take a couple days as I just don't know that much about the list processor ;). From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 20 22:50:37 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ Message-ID: ============================================================================ ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.3 Last Update: 5/2/97 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New section 2.8 New section 3.3 New section 4.3 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- About ClassicCmp ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collecting ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hardware and Media ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 7. Media -------- 7.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 7.4 What disk sizes are there? 7.5 How do I take care of old media? 8. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 8.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 8.3 How about capacitors? 8.4 Anything else? 8.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 9.2 What's the best way to back up my software? ============================================================================ 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? Any computer that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. We all have our opinions about MS and their products but it's best to stick to discussing them in reference to _Classic_ computers. MS bashing is not only off-topic but potentially insulting to those members of the list who work for them. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 230, fluxing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your wife of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, etc. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Hopefully this will prevent frying the rest of the machine with a flaky power supply. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. [][][][][][][][][][] 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. [][][][][][][][][][] 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. To my knowledge it was never used with 3.5 inch disks. 7.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density High Density High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. 7.4 What disk sizes are there? Physically? There are 8 inch, 5.25 inch, and 3.5 inch as "standard" disks. There are also some unique and/or short-lived sizes such as 3 inch disks used by Amstrad and 2 inch disks which were pioneered for use in laptops and then quickly forgotten. 7.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 8.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 8.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 8.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 8.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From george.lin at documentum.com Tue May 20 23:36:02 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970520213602.00a75bc0@lion.documentum.com> Hello, I will visit Los Angeles over the Memorial Day weekend. Are there any good thrift shops in the area? Thanks. George -- ______________________________ ______________________________ / /\ / /\ / George Lin _/ /\ / Opinions expressed in this _/ /\ / Antique Computer Collector / \/ / message do not necessarily / \/ / http://museum.home.ml.org /\ / reflect my employer's. /\ /_____________________________/ / /_____________________________/ / \_____________________________\/ \_____________________________\/ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Apple IIe, IIc, Mac 512K, Atari 800, 800XL, VCS, 5200, ColecoVision VGS, Commodore 64, plus/4, Compaq, Eagle II, KayPro II, Nintendo NES, Osborne 1 TI 99/4A, Timex Sinclair 1000, 1500, TriGem SLT-100, TRS-80 Model I, III, 100, Color Computer 2. From danjo at xnet.com Wed May 21 00:14:06 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all 8-) I noticed a small problem in the FAQ, Bill. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html should be http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html At least, the first didn't work for me and the second did 8-) BC From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed May 21 02:49:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970520213602.00a75bc0@lion.documentum.com> from "George Lin" at May 20, 97 09:36:02 pm Message-ID: <9705210649.AA11481@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 711 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970520/a83bd7aa/attachment-0001.ksh From idavis at comland.com Wed May 21 08:54:35 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970521135435.008dab40@mail.comland.com > At 11:49 PM 5/20/97 -0800, you Tim wrote: >Also some excellent military electronic surplus. I once found almost all the >components needed to build a Sidewinder missile there. Gyros, >radar domes, infrared sensors, the works. > >Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > A true hacker. Why go waste all that money on a pre-assembled Sidewinder missile when you can just go get all of the parts and put it together yourself. Plus, the pride you will feel when your baby takes off and blows something up. There's nothing like it. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From transit at primenet.com Wed May 21 10:18:53 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Any good thrift shops in the LA area? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970520213602.00a75bc0@lion.documentum.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 May 1997, George Lin wrote: > Hello, > > I will visit Los Angeles over the Memorial Day weekend. Are there any good > thrift shops in the area? Thanks. More than one could count, almost (although, contents are not guaranteed). I'd find some LA-area phone books (or maybe use www.zip2.com) and search under "Thrift Shops". Remember, LA sprawls, so plan your trip carefully. Let me know if you need any help in regards to freeways, rough areas, etc. (Too bad you won't be hanging around on May 31, or you could try your luck at the TRW swap meet in Redondo Beach--more stuff than you could shake a stick at) From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed May 21 13:08:26 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: FS: Radio Shack 5 MB Ext Hard Drive (Ebay) Message-ID: <33833A1A.6DA6@oboe.calpoly.edu> I have a RS TRS-80 5 Meg external hard drive on the auction at Ebay. It's in good physical condition but I don't know the working condition. Someone pulled one of the interface cables out. There is a picture and a little more info in the listing. Only going for $20 so far. Auction ends Thursday 1:15 PM. http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=inz25894 Thanks, Greg From gram at cnct.com Wed May 21 14:00:34 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: A Tragedy Averted Message-ID: Here in New Jersey, many towns have periodic "cleanout" garbage collections in which the residents are allowed to throw away just about anything their hearts no longer desire. Furniture, appliances, you name it -- they'll pick it up and cart it to a landfill. There are usually lots of pickup trucks and vans roaming the streets the night before, since much can be salvaged -- and there are some severely depressed areas not far away, such as Newark. Last night my fiancee spotted a serviceable couch two blocks from our house and dragged me over to help her lug it home -- we just finished a room in the attic and it needs furnishing. Two houses away from the couch someone had placed a TRS-80 Model II, its disk expansion bay, and a Line Printer VI by the curb. I could not allow this to be buried in Pennsylvania. There were also a couple of Wyse 50 terminals which will work fine on my various *nix boxen. While I was loading these treasures into the car, the perpetrator carried out sundry other (non-computer-related) items to the curb, and I asked him about the system. Seems that while it still works, he's out of space and hadn't used the system since he moved his body shop's bookkeeping systems to newer hardware. He said that he had a bunch of software in the attic, so call him in about a week. Then he brought out and presented me with a Kaypro 10. So it looks like at least part of the weekend is spoken for, while I clean these machines and check their functionality. Eight bits forever! -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 21 20:10:37 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' Message-ID: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Does anyone on this list know anything about a machine I've just rescued? It claims to be a 'Computer Automation' Naked Mini, and mine appears (alas) to be incomplete I have the 4U rack case, the backplane, frontpanel (which seems to use membrane switches and LEDs), CPU board (At least I assume that's what it is - it's got some 74x181 ALU chips on it) and 2 core memory boards. The PSU is missing, but even so I think it was worth saving. I guess I can hack something together. I have no docs on this at all, so any info would be welcome. I don't fancy working it all out my own. Talking of docs, does anyone have a copy of the I/O reference manual (or whatever the title is) for the HP9100 calculator? This manual was written for people who wanted to interface non-HP peripherals to the HP9100 (HP's first ever calculator), and contains hardware info on the connector on the back of that machine - info that's not in the operation/programming manual. I'd be interested in any info on that I/O port - I want to try a few things. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From william at ans.net Wed May 21 15:02:38 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' In-Reply-To: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705212002.AA25030@interlock.ans.net> > It claims to be a 'Computer Automation' Naked Mini, and mine appears > (alas) to be incomplete I think these things were made to be very modular. Judging from some old magazines (Electronics from the 1970s) I foolishly tossed a few years ago, users would specify what they wanted, and CA would piece a system together. I think users could even do the peicing themselves. Thus, as you find parts, you should be able to use them, even if they are for a completely different setup. I have a feeling that CAs were intended mostly for embedded use, rather than standalone systems. Other than that, I know nothing. Every so often I see boards at the fests, but pass them up. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed May 21 15:05:15 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Interesting thread/museum? In-Reply-To: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705212005.AA25321@interlock.ans.net> Check out comp.sys.cdc for a _very_ interesting thread... Also, in several of the postings, there appears to be a computer museum call "Cybertheque". I could not find a web page. Does anyone have more knowledge than I do about this organization? William Donzelli william@ans.net From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Wed May 21 15:16:13 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' In-Reply-To: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: <199705211910.29373@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <338856d2.7914802@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 21 May 1997 20:10:37 BST, someone said: >Does anyone on this list know anything about a machine I've just rescued? > >It claims to be a 'Computer Automation' Naked Mini, and mine appears >(alas) to be incomplete > >I have the 4U rack case, the backplane, frontpanel (which seems to use >membrane switches and LEDs), CPU board (At least I assume that's what it >is - it's got some 74x181 ALU chips on it) and 2 core memory boards. > >The PSU is missing, but even so I think it was worth saving. I guess I >can hack something together. Computer Automation built a system for our Federal Aviation Administration called ARTS-II (Automated Radar Terminal System #2) What you have may be part of that product line, an off-the-shelf mini named LSI-II. The boards were huge with hundreds of chips and mounted horizontally. The power supply was rated at 70 amps on the +5 line! _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 21 21:27:11 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: CA 'Naked Mini' In-Reply-To: <338856d2.7914802@smtp.ix.netcom.com>; from "Barry Peterson" at May 21, 97 8:16 pm Message-ID: <199705212027.4118@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Computer Automation built a system for our Federal Aviation > Administration called ARTS-II (Automated Radar Terminal System #2) > What you have may be part of that product line, an off-the-shelf mini > named LSI-II. The boards were huge with hundreds of chips and mounted > horizontally. The power supply was rated at 70 amps on the +5 line! The boards _are_ horizontal, and would contain (I guess, from memory) a couple of hundred chips. That's not what I'd call 'huge' - it's no worse than a PERQ board, or something like that. Even the first AT motherboard (I think) contained over 100 chips and wasn't exactly small. I doubt the PSU for my machine was 70A, though. It fits inside the cabinet, and from what little I saw of it, it seemed to be a linear unit. I'd have estimated about 30-40A on the 5V line. Even if it was 70A, that's not that high - it's only 350W. I've got DEC PSUs of twice that rating in use. I have a machine with _3_ 750W PSUs in it. I suspect I can easily get enough current at 5V for this machine. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From groberts at mitre.org Wed May 21 16:24:09 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970521172409.00842630@mail90> At 03:00 PM 5/21/97 -0400, Ward Griffiths wrote: >Here in New Jersey, many towns have periodic "cleanout" garbage >collections ...Last night ... someone had placed a TRS-80 Model II, its >disk expansion bay, and a Line Printer VI by the curb... >Then he brought out and presented me with a Kaypro 10. congrats! i must say that reading this list is starting to get a bit depressing. one begins to feel that if you're not routinely finding treasures in the trash or S100 systems for $2 you're just not with it. i guess patience will ultimately win out though. keep searching for those treasures! - gfr +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 21 22:28:36 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Regular Posting: FAQ In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at May 20, 97 8:50 pm Message-ID: <199705212128.7773@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > ============================================================================ > ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List > FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.3 > Last Update: 5/2/97 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope it's OK to comment on the FAQ here - there are a few things that IMHO should be expanded... It's probably better to discuss them on the list, though, rather than use private e-mail. > 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! > Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. We all have our opinions > about MS and their products but it's best to stick to discussing them in > reference to _Classic_ computers. MS bashing is not only off-topic but > potentially insulting to those members of the list who work for them. IMHO _no_ advocacy-type posts belong here - not just anti-MS ones. There are certain features of certain computers (yes, even classic ones) that I don't like (as a hardware designer, for example, I don't regard certain parts of the Apple ][ as being particularly elegant). But I don't indend to try to start flame wars here. I'll contribute to threads I am interested in, and ignore the rest. It appears that, fortunately, all other posters operate the same way. > 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? > > Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done > before that power switch gets flipped. > > Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're > looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown > caps and resistors, etc. You can avoid a number of problems just > by taking a peek inside. Also look for dry joints (broken solder connections), IC's with pins bent under, etc. If you like, reseat all internal connectors. You may cure a number of faults by doing that. If anything looks overheated or burnt out, take great care. Some damage may already have been done, but you want to ensure no further problems occur. > If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and > dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. Also, if you have the knowledge, equipment (a _good_ logic analyser, which is not the sort of thing most hobbyists have) and time, it may be worth grabbing waveforms arround irreplaceable custom chips when you first power up the machine This information may be very useful if you even need to recreate them. On the other hand, knowing what to record, and what to relate it to, is often non-obvious. > > Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and > start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been > recommended as a convenient load. These should be available > from any decent Volkswagen shop. Hopefully this will prevent frying > the rest of the machine with a flaky power supply. You may want to > check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where > near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect > a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from The point of the dummy load is to protect the PSU. Some switch-mode PSUs (that's the type used on a large number of computers, including almost all PCs) will fail if turned on with no load, even if working properly. This would probably be mentioned in the tech manual, but you probably don't have that. Related to the last comment: A remarkably large number of machines used 'standard' PSU modules, which were not built by the company that built the rest of the machine. PSU details/schematics may well not be in the service manual, which is a right pain, since PSU problems are probably the most common fault of all. Sometimes the company that built the PSU will supply their own service manual, but often you have to work blind. > [][][][][][][][][][] > > 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? > > Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try > soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes I've found a product called 'Antistatic foam cleaner' produced by Electrolube to be _excellent_ at cleaning computer cases. In the UK, you can get that from Maplin. It's not cheap, but it works. > > Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good > for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a > different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the > connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large > number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from > components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to > promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some > softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Again, Electrolube produce a couple of contact-cleaning sprays. One is 99% propan-2-ol, and is safe on just about anything. The other one _may_ attack some plastics (although not circuit boards AFAIK), but deals with dirtier parts. Again, available from Maplin, expensive, but useful. > > Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice > job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you > put any power to them. I normally pull the keycaps (make a chart showing how to put them back - squared graph paper is handy here), and clean them like I clean the cases. > 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? [...] > specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of > differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 > sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard > sectoring. To my knowledge it was never used with 3.5 inch disks. There couldn't be a hard-sectored 3.5" disk. Unlike the larger sizes, the index sensor in a 3.5" drive doesn't detect a hole in the disk - it detects a magnet or hole in the rotor of the spindle motor (It's shown in the Teac FD235 service manual, for example). The 3.5" disk is aligned on the spindle when the disk is inserted, so that the position of the index pulse relates to the correct position on the disk. Since the sensor only produces one pulse per disk revolution, it's impossible (no matter what you do to the disk) to have a hard-sectored 3.5" floppy in the traditional sense. > 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? > > Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general > the following substitutions may be made: > > Desired Format Substitute > --------------------------------------------------- > Single Density Double Density > Double Density none reliably > Quad Density High Density No! The media _is_ different magnetically. Quad density (80trk 5.25" disks with about 700-800K capacity) drives will not reliably work with high density (1.2Mbyte) media. Please don't do it. [... Irreplaceable components] > Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going > to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible > to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, > etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- > ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. > No, but some minicomputer enthusiasts do repair demountable drives, like RK05's at home... Doing a head swap is fun (for suitable values of 'fun'). > 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? > > This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways > seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- > riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). > >From there you can transfer the data to either a CD-ROM - convenient > but not long term reliable storage or to mylar tape which may be > inconvenient - but the official word on how long it lasts is "Damn near > forever." I do not know what equipment is necessary to read and write > punch tape but I'm sure someone will bring it up. Writing : A good, fast paper tape punch. I recomend a Facit 4070 (easy to maintain, runs for ever, trivial to link to a PC parallel port)), or a Teletype BRPE (a little faster, more work to interface and keep going). Reading : A pair of eyes :-). Oh, you want to do it automatically? In that case, a good _optical_ tape reader. If you can find one (and they sometimes turn up in the UK), get a Trend 700. They are _very_ kind to the tapes, unlike some lesser readers that can mangle sproket holes (or worse data holes) in the event of a tape jam. Of course, those are classic peripherals in their own right, and could probably be discussed here (we can talk about peripherals, and not just CPUs, right?) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed May 21 18:11:07 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: <199705212128.7773@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: Hi all. First - let me just say that I'm the ideal tester of my own FAQ as I'm the one asking most of the "dumb" questions ;) > > 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! > > IMHO _no_ advocacy-type posts belong here - not just anti-MS ones. There > are certain features of certain computers (yes, even classic ones) that I > don't like (as a hardware designer, for example, I don't regard certain > parts of the Apple ][ as being particularly elegant). But I don't indend > to try to start flame wars here. I'll contribute to threads I am > interested in, and ignore the rest. It appears that, fortunately, all > other posters operate the same way. Well, I wasn't singling out MS for exemption - I just thought it was an entertaining heading ;). The example applies to everything. IMO, it's fine to post an opinion that some product was poorly designed or implemented and spawn a discussion about that. It's these design flubs and quirks of the industry that have moved the evolution of computers. It's another thing entirely to say Company X sucks and employs only incompetent morons. No useful discussion can be extracted from such a post. I will generalize the section. You'll have to excuse my paranoia - but I've reached a point where so many groups/lists I used to read have degenerated that I really try to head things off here. I'm the only hair-trigger asshole allowed ;) > > 5.4 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? > > Also look for dry joints (broken solder connections), IC's with pins bent > under, etc. If you like, reseat all internal connectors. You may cure a > number of faults by doing that. > > If anything looks overheated or burnt out, take great care. Some damage > may already have been done, but you want to ensure no further problems > occur. Good advice - I'll add it. > > If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and > > dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. > > Also, if you have the knowledge, equipment (a _good_ logic analyser, which > is not the sort of thing most hobbyists have) and time, it may be worth > grabbing waveforms arround irreplaceable custom chips when you first power > up the machine This information may be very useful if you even need to > recreate them. On the other hand, knowing what to record, and what to > relate it to, is often non-obvious. I'll add this. I can't speak for other members of the list but I suspect many may be in the same boat as I. I only started accumulating equipment about 5 years ago and I've learned everything I know about electronics in the process of attempting to fix the various things I've picked up. Even if someone gave me a logic analyzer I couldn't do a damn thing with it. To be honest - I don't really have a solid concept of what a logic analyzer does ;). My main tool is a DMM and I've barely come to understand what I can do with it ;). I've got an oscilloscope but that's only so I can align floppy drives - that's the only trick I know how to do with it. I can dump a copy of an EPROM but I'd be hard-pressed to copy anything else. The recommendations in the FAQ have already surpassed my ability to use them. I've gotten into collecting old computers because I enjoyed using them as a kid - my problem now is that some of what I own may be slipping away faster than I can learn how to fix it! > > Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and > > start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been > > The point of the dummy load is to protect the PSU. Some switch-mode > PSUs (that's the type used on a large number of computers, including > almost all PCs) will fail if turned on with no load, even if working > properly. This would probably be mentioned in the tech manual, but you > probably don't have that. > > Related to the last comment: A remarkably large number of machines used > 'standard' PSU modules, which were not built by the company that built the > rest of the machine. PSU details/schematics may well not be in the service > manual, which is a right pain, since PSU problems are probably the most > common fault of all. Sometimes the company that built the PSU will supply > their own service manual, but often you have to work blind. More good info which I will add. > > 6.1 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? > > I've found a product called 'Antistatic foam cleaner' produced by > Electrolube to be _excellent_ at cleaning computer cases. > > In the UK, you can get that from Maplin. It's not cheap, but it works. > > Again, Electrolube produce a couple of contact-cleaning sprays. One is 99% > propan-2-ol, and is safe on just about anything. The other one _may_ > attack some plastics (although not circuit boards AFAIK), but deals with > dirtier parts. Again, available from Maplin, expensive, but useful. > > > > Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice > > job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you > > put any power to them. > > I normally pull the keycaps (make a chart showing how to put them back - > squared graph paper is handy here), and clean them like I clean the cases. > > > > 7.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? > > There couldn't be a hard-sectored 3.5" disk. Unlike the larger sizes, the > index sensor in a 3.5" drive doesn't detect a hole in the disk - it > detects a magnet or hole in the rotor of the spindle motor (It's shown in > the Teac FD235 service manual, for example). The 3.5" disk is aligned on > the spindle when the disk is inserted, so that the position of the index > pulse relates to the correct position on the disk. > > Since the sensor only produces one pulse per disk revolution, it's > impossible (no matter what you do to the disk) to have a hard-sectored > 3.5" floppy in the traditional sense. Great - I'll update that! > > 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? > > > > Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general > > the following substitutions may be made: > > > > Desired Format Substitute > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Single Density Double Density > > Double Density none reliably > > Quad Density High Density > > No! The media _is_ different magnetically. Quad density (80trk 5.25" disks > with about 700-800K capacity) drives will not reliably work with high > density (1.2Mbyte) media. Please don't do it. Hrm. I have done this rather successfully in the past. I know the media is different (ferrite vs. cobalt, I think) but I have formatted and used HD disks in a QD drive without problems. At the same time I have found problems using a HD in a DD drive. I'll remove this piece to prevent problems but given the relative rarity of QD disks I'm interested to know if anyone else has found this to work. > [... Irreplaceable components] > > Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going > > to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible > > to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, > > etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- > > ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. > > > > No, but some minicomputer enthusiasts do repair demountable drives, like > RK05's at home... Doing a head swap is fun (for suitable values of 'fun'). > > > 8.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? > > > Writing : A good, fast paper tape punch. I recomend a Facit 4070 (easy to > maintain, runs for ever, trivial to link to a PC parallel port)), or a > Teletype BRPE (a little faster, more work to interface and keep going). > > Reading : A pair of eyes :-). Oh, you want to do it automatically? In that > case, a good _optical_ tape reader. If you can find one (and they > sometimes turn up in the UK), get a Trend 700. They are _very_ kind to the > tapes, unlike some lesser readers that can mangle sproket holes (or worse > data holes) in the event of a tape jam. > > Of course, those are classic peripherals in their own right, and could > probably be discussed here (we can talk about peripherals, and not just > CPUs, right?) You bet. If it relates to classic computers... So, assuming people other than me with little background in electronics are collecting computers and finding they need to teach themselves how to fix them what would you experts out there recommend? Books? Experimentation? (Whaddaya mean discharge the CRT? ZAP!) Give up and buy stuff that works? I don't spend a whole lot of time working on this stuff and when I do I get a sneaking suspicion that I'm not as smart as I think I am. Later, Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From scott at saskatoon.com Wed May 21 18:27:21 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > 7.3 Can these formats be interchanged? > > > > > > Quad Density High Density > > > > No! The media _is_ different magnetically. Quad density (80trk 5.25" > > disks > > with about 700-800K capacity) drives will not reliably work with high > > density (1.2Mbyte) media. Please don't do it. > > Hrm. I have done this rather successfully in the past. I know the > media > is different (ferrite vs. cobalt, I think) but I have formatted and used > HD disks in a QD drive without problems. At the same time I have found > problems using a HD in a DD drive. I'll remove this piece to prevent > problems but given the relative rarity of QD disks I'm interested to > know if anyone else has found this to work. I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? ttfn srw From william at ans.net Wed May 21 19:47:05 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705220047.AB19728@interlock.ans.net> > > Also, if you have the knowledge, equipment (a _good_ logic analyser, which > > is not the sort of thing most hobbyists have) and time, it may be worth > > grabbing waveforms arround irreplaceable custom chips when you first power > > up the machine This information may be very useful if you even need to > > recreate them. On the other hand, knowing what to record, and what to > > relate it to, is often non-obvious. I agree that this is a good idea, as many of these chips will be quite rare in the future. I must add that trying to crack the logic of a chip larger than a simple PAL would be a serious task. Simple 1000 gate ASICs would be next to impossible. Even for classic computers, a 1000 gate ASIC is small. If a custom logic chip has any sort of complex state machine (nearly all do), simple probing will probably never reveal all of the states. By all means, try to read out the contents of PALs - many never have their protection bits turned on. Blank PALs are plentiful (stock up on them now!) - burn a replica and see if it works. And of course, grab hold of every spare chip available off of donor machines. William Donzelli william@ans.net From pcoad at crl.com Wed May 21 20:10:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: collectin depression was:Re: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970521172409.00842630@mail90> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > congrats! i must say that reading this list is starting to get a bit > depressing. one begins to feel that if you're not routinely finding > treasures in the trash or S100 systems for $2 you're just not with it. i > guess patience will ultimately win out though. keep searching for those > treasures! > I've had a pretty good string of luck lately. I had a dry spell of about six months which ended shortly before the list started up. Collecting good computers requires a good deal of patience. But once you make that incredible find, this list is the best place to brag/crow/share the joy. Most of the people I know couldn't care less about my latest prize. Most have reactions like: "ANOTHER, computer? How many do you have NOW? You paid money for a computer that doesn't run WINDOWS? Where are you going to buy software for it?" Gak! The people on this list also understand why you are excited when you have a good outing. Keep looking. You'll have your chances to make us drool. We'll be here when you find an unused PDP-8 in a dumpster behind your building. Happy hunting, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From idavis at comland.com Wed May 21 21:07:17 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Spare Chips Message-ID: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> At 08:47 PM 5/21/97 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >And of course, grab hold of every spare chip available off of donor machines. > >William Donzelli >william@ans.net > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. Isaac Davis idavis@comland.com indavis@juno.com From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Wed May 21 23:03:52 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > If anyone else knows of a cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it > with us. How about old PC cards? Those are a penny a dozen. Some have really useful stuff on them (assuming they're not old enough to be classics, like the original IBM MDA driving my second screen). You could also try old PC motherboards. They're very cheap and have big EPROMs. My personal favourite is scavenging old [S]VGA cards. These are *REALLY* cheap or even free (esp. the 256k RAM ones). A lot have EPROMs to store their BIOS and character set. (Around 6-7 years ago, the norm in my country of origin was to burn a new character set into EPROMs and replace the ones on the VGA. Later they found out that was too slow and expensive, so they stuck with soft fonts. Maybe things are similar in your respective loci). While we're talking about EPROMs, anyone care to suggest a cheap burner? Preferably one I can buy in the UK, but any ideas would be lovely. I've looked at some, but they're all in the UKP250+ price range. I'm seriously considering building my own... --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From dastar at crl.com Wed May 21 22:55:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! > > > > Well, I wasn't singling out MS for exemption - I just thought it was an > entertaining heading ;). The example applies to everything. IMO, it's <...> > post. I will generalize the section. No, keep the heading. I like it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 21 23:05:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: collectin depression was:Re: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > > > congrats! i must say that reading this list is starting to get a bit > > depressing. one begins to feel that if you're not routinely finding > > treasures in the trash or S100 systems for $2 you're just not with it. i > > guess patience will ultimately win out though. keep searching for those > > treasures! > > The people on this list also understand why you are excited when you have > a good outing. Keep looking. You'll have your chances to make us drool. > We'll be here when you find an unused PDP-8 in a dumpster behind your > building. I suggest trying all the thrift shops within a 25-30 miles radius of your house. The thrift shops in my town have yieled one IBM PC manual, and that's it. Very frustrating. Then the other day while travelling through a city over the hill I decided to try a couple thrift shops there. So I found some in the yellow pages and made a visit. It was well worth it. I picked up a TRS-80 CoCo2 for $.99 (yes, ninety-nine cents) and an Atari 800XL with a 1050 drive for anoter $3.98. Plus some other miscellany. The other thrift shop yielded about 3 C64's, 2 commodore disk drives, an intellivision, an Atari 5200, 2 Atari 2600s, 2 Odyssey2's, a TI-99/4a and some sundry carthridges for all the above...total bill was $32. I managed to talk the proprietor down from the $10.99 to $45.99 they were asking for each unit to $5 each, and then I got a 50% discount on top of that. That's another suggestion...learn to bargain. It's always in your best interest to bargain. Figure it this way: it's probably something you're not going to walk away from anyway (especially if it's like an Osbourne 1 or something) and you may as well get at least a couple bucks knocked off of it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed May 21 23:06:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. This is a great suggestion, worthy of the FAQ. Beware that you don't cannabalize what could be considered a classic peripheral though. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From MPritchard at ensemble.net Wed May 21 23:47:44 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Spare Chips Message-ID: <199705220445.VAA15398@mx2.u.washington.edu> > > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was > looking at > > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what > looked > > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, > and it was > > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store > for $2.00 > > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the > eprom by > > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I > am going > > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems > and > > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem > for > > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else > knows of a > > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. > > >This is a great suggestion, worthy of the FAQ. Beware that you don't > > >cannabalize what could be considered a classic peripheral though. > > We pretty much cleaned out the Dallas 1st Saturday sale a few months > ago of cheap boards that had eproms. Gobs of 2764's for $0.25, plenty > o 27128's, but very few bigger chips. One notable exception. Some > strange board in a tiny pizzal style box. for $10 we got 4x 1-meg > 80-ns 30-pin simms, a 27128, and *8* 27010's and a few other useful > chips. > > -Mp > From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 11:43:58 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Whitson" at May 21, 97 4:11 pm Message-ID: <199705221044.25032@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Advocacy, etc] > Well, I wasn't singling out MS for exemption - I just thought it was an > entertaining heading ;). The example applies to everything. IMO, it's Agreed, keep the heading - it is entertaining. I just think you should possibly expand the text under it. > fine to post an opinion that some product was poorly designed or > implemented and spawn a discussion about that. It's these design flubs A reasoned discussion of poor designs is (IMHO) fine. Notice the 'reasoned'. It's especially useful when the design fault can cause further damage - a trivial example is that on some PERQ hard disk interface boards (the so-called 5.25" DIB), a loss of the +5V line can corrupt entire tracks on the hard disk. This is a design error (they used totem-pole drivers, not open collector ones), and it can cause the loss of data. > and quirks of the industry that have moved the evolution of computers. > It's another thing entirely to say Company X sucks and employs only > incompetent morons. No useful discussion can be extracted from such a > post. I will generalize the section. Agreed 100%. Lets keep that off this list. It benefits nobody. > I'll add this. I can't speak for other members of the list but I > suspect many may be in the same boat as I. I only started accumulating I suspect there are all levels of knowledge on this list, which is a good thing. Tips should therefore be aimed at all levels of knowledge, from those who are starting out (like explicit instructions on how to test a linear PSU) up to those who'd quite happily redesign the machine given half a chance :-) > equipment about 5 years ago and I've learned everything I know about > electronics in the process of attempting to fix the various things I've I learnt a lot about processor design by working on old minicomputers and workstations. It's one thing to read about a fetch/execute cycle, it's quite another to trace it in the microcode, see what gates are enabled and when and watch the data moving about on a 'scope or analyser screen. However, this won't teach you basic electronics. That's something best learnt by experimenting with _replaceable_ components - not strange chips from a classic computer. I'll recomend 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill as a good book to learn from, but feel free to recomend others. > picked up. Even if someone gave me a logic analyzer I couldn't do a > damn thing with it. To be honest - I don't really have a solid concept > of what a logic analyzer does ;). My main tool is a DMM and I've barely It's basically a special-purpose storage 'scope that works with digital signals only, and displays the timing relationships between them. Very useful for figuring out what a circuit is doing. > come to understand what I can do with it ;). I've got an oscilloscope > but that's only so I can align floppy drives - that's the only trick > I know how to do with it. I can dump a copy of an EPROM but I'd be If you can dump an EPROM, then, given the appropriate programmer, you can dump anything else - it's the same process. Stick in the chip and hit 'read' :-) > hard-pressed to copy anything else. The recommendations in the FAQ have > already surpassed my ability to use them. > > I've gotten into collecting old computers because I enjoyed using them > as a kid - my problem now is that some of what I own may be slipping > away faster than I can learn how to fix it! Don't worry. Post the problems here, and I'm sure somebody can help you out. It's a little difficult talking you through a repair remotely, but it can be done. [QD vs HD] > Hrm. I have done this rather successfully in the past. I know the media > is different (ferrite vs. cobalt, I think) but I have formatted and used > HD disks in a QD drive without problems. At the same time I have found You were lucky. I've had a lot of problems trying this. In fact, a _good_ (branded) DD disk may well be a better bet. > problems using a HD in a DD drive. I'll remove this piece to prevent > problems but given the relative rarity of QD disks I'm interested to > know if anyone else has found this to work. > > Of course, those are classic peripherals in their own right, and could > > probably be discussed here (we can talk about peripherals, and not just > > CPUs, right?) > > You bet. If it relates to classic computers... Yes, I was talking about either classic peripherals (Sanders printers, Versatec electrostatic plotters, paper tape stuff, card readers, etc), peripherals for classic computers (1541's, etc), or peripherals used for restoring classic computers (paper tape readers linked to PC's,etc). It's obvious that Windows printing problems don't (in general) belong here. > > So, assuming people other than me with little background in electronics > are collecting computers and finding they need to teach themselves how > to fix them what would you experts out there recommend? Books? > Experimentation? (Whaddaya mean discharge the CRT? ZAP!) Give up and Well, a combination of reading and experimentation. You'll come up against a large range of circuits when you seriously get into restoration - everything from 1000 gate+ digital systems with obscure timing faults, to switch mode PSUs, to monitors, to electromechanical stuff, etc. Most faults seem to be PSU/monitor related, thankfully. Books on TV repair exist, and many are very good. The circuits used in TVs are similar to those used in computers/monitors, and the same repair tricks work. The monthly magazine 'Television' (available in the UK) taught me how to fix power supplies. > buy stuff that works? I don't spend a whole lot of time working on Repairing them is half the fun... > this stuff and when I do I get a sneaking suspicion that I'm not as > smart as I think I am. > > Later, > Bill -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 11:48:13 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: ; from "Scott Walde" at May 21, 97 5:27 pm Message-ID: <199705221048.25207@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) > disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the Yes, I've had success doing that as well.... > magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed > tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? That would appear to be correct. The difference between a DD and a QD drive is pretty minimal on the electronic side, so the disks should be interchangeable. > > ttfn > srw > > > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 11:50:54 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: <199705220047.AB19728@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at May 21, 97 8:47 pm Message-ID: <199705221050.25244@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> > I agree that this is a good idea, as many of these chips will be quite > rare in the future. I must add that trying to crack the logic of a chip > larger than a simple PAL would be a serious task. Simple 1000 gate ASICs > would be next to impossible. Even for classic computers, a 1000 gate ASIC > is small. It depends on how much you already know about the functionality of the chip. If you have the service manual that describes what the chip is for, and roughly what the external signals are, then often a logic analyser will give you enough info to recreate the chip. If you have no idea what the chip is for, then you probably haven't a hope of decoding it. > By all means, try to read out the contents of PALs - many never have > their protection bits turned on. Blank PALs are plentiful (stock up on > them now!) - burn a replica and see if it works. You can replace most PALs with correcly programmed GALs, which are still being made AFAIK. This may not be historically correct, but it will get the machine running again. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From gram at cnct.com Thu May 22 07:28:19 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) > disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the > magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed > tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? Shortly after my RSCC received its first Tandy 2000, I took an old Model One diskette (SSSD, 35-Track) and formatted it in the T2K with full verify enabled. It formatted fine with only two bad tracks reported (the diskette was at least four years old, and had been reused many times). Of course, back in those days I wasn't bright enough to place some data on that diskette, put it in a safe place for a year, then check it for data retention. I just wanted to see how it would format. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu May 22 07:36:22 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: FAQ updates/changes In-Reply-To: <199705221044.25032@tw100.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > Yes, I was talking about either classic peripherals (Sanders printers, > Versatec electrostatic plotters, paper tape stuff, card readers, etc), > peripherals for classic computers (1541's, etc), or peripherals used for > restoring classic computers (paper tape readers linked to PC's,etc). It's > obvious that Windows printing problems don't (in general) belong here. Unless of course it's trying to create a driver for an old Base2 printer of something equivalently old and bizarre. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From gram at cnct.com Thu May 22 07:49:53 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: A Tragedy Averted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I _hate_ having to follow-up my own message, but errors of fact must be corrected after being exposed to daylight. On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > someone had placed a TRS-80 Model II, its disk expansion bay, and a Line > Printer VI by the curb. I could not allow this to be buried in > Pennsylvania. There were also a couple of Wyse 50 terminals which will First error. One is a Wyse 50 and therefore useful. The other is a Wyse 30, a rather less useful terminal. Emergency console for my Sun 4 is about it. Keyword: standout glitch. > newer hardware. He said that he had a bunch of software in the attic, so > call him in about a week. Then he brought out and presented me with a > Kaypro 10. So it looks like at least part of the weekend is spoken for, Hey, it was late (23:00), it was dark, I'd been up since 05:30, and I was too ecstatic about the Model II to look closely -- I just stuffed things into the back seat of the car. Upon taking things out yestereve while there was still light, it turns out that the machine is a Kaypro 16, not a 10. A classic in its own way, but not as exciting to me. Oh, well. It's time for me to contact every bloody municipality in northern New Jersey and find out when they have their own cleanouts. Oh yeah, and check out the thrift stores in a few more towns. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Thu May 22 04:12:31 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:39 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1EitjDA$3AhzEwbn@paladio.demon.co.uk> In article , Alexios Chouchoulas > > While we're talking about EPROMs, anyone care to suggest a cheap burner? >Preferably one I can buy in the UK, but any ideas would be lovely. I've >looked at some, but they're all in the UKP250+ price range. I'm seriously >considering building my own... > Alexios Maplin do two under 200UKP - the EPP1-F at 162.99 and the EPP-2 199.99 (both prices inclusive of VAT). I bought a EPP1-F a long time ago at one company I worked at and it seemed OK for small EPROMS/EEPROMS (up to 128k x 8. Comes with a DOS-based editor and utilities but claims to work on any computer with an RS232 and terminal software. From tomph at ix.netcom.com Thu May 22 04:18:41 1997 From: tomph at ix.netcom.com (Tom Phelan) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Heath Message-ID: <199705221507.KAA14007@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> Hi Ward, Would you let me know if you still want this Heath. It's been sitting in a box in my van for over a week now. If you don't want it I'll give it to someone else. If you do want it, can we make some arrangement for the transfer. I have to move it out of here by Wednesday, next week so, if I don't hear from you by Sat. I'll assume your not interested. Thanks Tom From william at ans.net Thu May 22 10:27:46 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705220229.VAA28410@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: <199705221527.AA29102@interlock.ans.net> > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. Hamfests are the best place to pick up spare chips. Many vendors are simply regular guys just trying to clean out their basements, others are psuedo-commercial vendors. Of course, it is just a big crap shoot - some fests have yeilded only boards with standard TTL/CMOS, other fests have yeilded more exotic species ($2000 1M Rad-Hard EEPROMS (buck a tube!), GaAs glue logic, early weird 68000 variants, etc.). Of course, the chances of finding exactly what you need on the first try is, by Murphy's Law, slim (it does, however, justify going to every hamfest possible!). I must caution that we must be careful what we scrap - for example, I am pretty sure I scrapped out a bunch of CA Naked Mini (sound familiar?) boards three years back. Many boards to classic minicomputers are not distinctive at all (Data General leaps to mind), but are in demand. They same holds true for peripherals. I think we should use this list when we need parts. Some of us probably have mountains of chips (at least I do). If you need a specific chip, post something to the list - perhaps one of us has a tube of the things we never knew we needed. I do not think anyone here is out to make money on such small deals. Regarding EPROMS and PALs: I would stock up on them, as both are becoming obsolete. Flash technology has nearly wiped out EPROM demand, just as GALs and FPGAs are pushing out PALs. And if you see ANY early or wierd EPROMs, namely 1702s and 2532s, GET THEM. Today they are quite rare, tommorrow they will be gone. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu May 22 11:41:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Dead PET for free Message-ID: Here's another one. Hope someone finds a use for this... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newgroups: comp.sys.cbm Subject: (fwd) Take my PET, please! Ok, forgive the corny subject line... I have a C=PET 4016 here that is in a serious state of disrepair. When I got it, it wasn't working and I tried to fix it up to no avail. In it's current state, it's little more than a big metal & plastic paperweight to me. I'm GIVING IT AWAY (You pay S&H) to anyone on one condition: That you try to fix 'er up or use the parts to fix another commodore computer. I don't want to see this go to the dumpster, folks. It deserves better. I'm even willing to throw in a few C64 disks for taking it away :) If interested, respond via email - dross4@niu.edu Dave Ross / Doc Watson | "Make me one with everything," said the dross4@niu.edu | Zen Buddist to the hot dog vendor. - - - - - - - - - - - -+- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Long live the C=64/128!| http://www.cs.niu.edu/~z956832/homepage.htm -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu May 22 11:40:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80s looking for a good home Message-ID: I hope this makes it to the list. My posts haven't been showing up lately. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Newgroups: comp.sys.tandy Subject: (fwd) FREE: Two TRS-80s Hello all, While cleaning my closet, I've rediscovered two Tandy TRS-80 Color Computer machines and a bunch of accessories. I'd like to give these things away to somebody with an interest in the thing rather than toss them into the dumpster. If you are interested, please respond to devolder@oakhill.sps.mot.com. Here's the contents of the box of stuff I want you to have... TRS-80 w/16K RAM TRS-80 w/32K or 64K RAM (I forget which) Tandy Cassette drive and cable 2 joysticks 2 game cartridges, Polaris and Football 1 EDTASM+ cartridge and manual TRS-80 Programming manuals (they cover BASIC and some ASM) Another book on specifically programming the TRS-80 in ASM, very good. Some magazines circa 1985 with articles on the Coco. Other literature which provide programming examples for the TRS-80. While I don't want any money for these, I will ask to be reimbursed for shipping. Please respond ASAP because I'm in the process of packing up to move. Thanks, Eric -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 18:05:25 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221527.AA29102@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at May 22, 97 11:27 am Message-ID: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > I have found what seems to be a decent supply of eproms. I was looking at > > an old 2400 baud fax modem for my pc, and noticed that it had what looked > > like an eprom on it. I pulled the chip and peeled off the label, and it was > > a 27256 eprom. I also bought a 2400 baud modem at a thrift store for $2.00 > > and it had a 27128 eprom in it. This was cheaper than buying the eprom by > > itself. I paid $3.00 for a 2764, and didn't even price a 27128. I am going > > to start picking up all of the old cheap, almost worthless modems and > > grabbing the eproms out of them. You can probably pick up the modem for > > less than the price of the eprom that it holds. If anyone else knows of a > > cheap source of eproms or other chips, share it with us. Others have said that you should be careful that what you strip for parts is not some piece of computer history. I guess you're pretty safe with 'generic' PC clone bits (although I personally preserve true-blue IBM hardware...), but anything else should probably be kept as-is if you're not sure about it. On the other hand, I got some old PCBs that had had the gold connectors cut off (for 'recycling' :-(), and I intend to at least remove the socketed IC's from those. They're mostly common 68000 stuff + ethernet + SCSI+ etc, but they are worth saving, and the boards are useless as-is. > > Hamfests are the best place to pick up spare chips. Many vendors are > simply regular guys just trying to clean out their basements, others are > psuedo-commercial vendors. Of course, it is just a big crap shoot - some > fests have yeilded only boards with standard TTL/CMOS, other fests have > yeilded more exotic species ($2000 1M Rad-Hard EEPROMS (buck a tube!), > GaAs glue logic, early weird 68000 variants, etc.). Of course, the > chances of finding exactly what you need on the first try is, by Murphy's > Law, slim (it does, however, justify going to every hamfest possible!). I'm always a little careful about buying chips at radio rallies (hamfests). They're the one thing I can't fix if they are defective, so I don't pay that much for them. On the other hand, I do buy up 2900-series chips whenever I see them - they are sufficiently rare to be worth grabbing. Unlike valves (tubes), where a quick test with an Ohmmeter will tell you if the heater is burnt out, there's no quick test for finding really dud IC's AFAIK. Maybe I should design a pocket IC tester.... > > I must caution that we must be careful what we scrap - for example, I am > pretty sure I scrapped out a bunch of CA Naked Mini (sound familiar?) Argh!!! > I think we should use this list when we need parts. Some of us > probably have mountains of chips (at least I do). If you need a specific Indeed. Most serious computer collectors keep all sorts of spares in their junk box. Would you believe a spare ASR33 motor (50Hz model), head stacks for a TU16, head assemblies for Northstar disk drives, DEC flip-chip cards, Anadex printheads, etc, etc, etc. > chip, post something to the list - perhaps one of us has a tube of the > things we never knew we needed. I do not think anyone here is out to make > money on such small deals. Another thing: If you get a computer from a company, university, or similar (as opposed to a private individual), ask if they have any spares around. Sometimes all sorts of things turn up. I was once offered (along with some other people) a PDP11/34 CPU. Now, they're quite common, but also quite nice, and I grabbed one. I then asked if there were any spares available. I was then offered an assortment of DEC comms cards (DMC11's, DMR11's, KMC11's, DJ11's, etc), cables, boards, test boards, extenders, RK05 heads, alignment disks, alignment tapes, PSUs, switches, brand-new-in-bags DEC components, etc. That's just one example - it's happened several times, and you lose nothing by asking. > > Regarding EPROMS and PALs: I would stock up on them, as both are becoming > obsolete. Flash technology has nearly wiped out EPROM demand, just as GALs > and FPGAs are pushing out PALs. And if you see ANY early or wierd EPROMs, Well, yes, but I don't insist that all my machines have all-original components. If a PAL failed in my PERQ, I'd replace it with a GAL, no question. The machine would work again that way. Of course, if I then saw a suitable blank PAL I'd probably swap it in, but I'd not class it as urgent. Similarly, apart from the _strange_ 1702, it's often very easy to use larger modern EPROMs in place of older ones. Or you could use EEPROMs (Microchip et al make at least the 2K * 8 (2816) and 8K*8 (2864) ones) - the pinout is almost the same as the 2716 and 2764. If you are a purist, this probably won't help you, but I've used tricks like that to get old machines running again. I wonder how many people have noticed that if you take a 4164 64K DRAM chip (commonly available on old PC memory cards), bend up pins 1 and 8 (N/C and +5V), and solder a jumper from pin 8 to pin 9 (A7), the result will work in a 4116 socket (although using only a quarter of the chip). I used that to get a very dead Tekky graphics terminal running again when I couldn't get a 4116 in a hurry. > namely 1702s and 2532s, GET THEM. Today they are quite rare, tommorrow Don't forget the 2708 and the 3-rail 2716 (Texas Instruments). Also, how many people have programmers that can handle these? I have the original Intel programmer (part of the MCS8i) for the 1702, and a little thing that covers everything from the 2704 (! - it's a half-size 2708) to the 2732 for the other classics. The latter needs repairing, but it should be doable. Most modern programmers _cannot_ handle 3-rail EPROMs, and the manufacturers think you're mad for asking. > they will be gone. > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 22 13:16:53 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> from "A.R. Duell" at May 22, 97 06:05:25 pm Message-ID: <9705221716.AA27845@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1052 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970522/a82242db/attachment-0001.ksh From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 18:25:04 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <9705221716.AA27845@alph02.triumf.ca>; from "Tim Shoppa" at May 22, 97 10:16 am Message-ID: <199705221725.22278@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > > namely 1702s and 2532s, GET THEM. Today they are quite rare, tommorrow > > > > Don't forget the 2708 and the 3-rail 2716 (Texas Instruments). > > If anybody needs any of these, I've got perhaps a dozen 1702's, > several dozen 2708's, and a couple 3-rail 2716's still kicking around. > I've even got a couple of 2704's. Hang on to them - you'll need them one day (but I hardly need to tell you that, now do I :-)). There was also a half-sized 2716 - i.e 1K * 8, but single supply rail. The number was something like 2508, I think. I've seen one in use in an FTS-88 keyboard - if it ever fails, it gets replaced by 2716 with A10 soldered to ground... [...] > My 1702A programmer is a unit based on a design from a mid-70's > _Popular Electronics_ article. Toggle the addresses and data in I found the articles on the PE 'CHAMP' (the first UK computer project) the other day. One of the peripherals was the CHAMP-PROG - a 1702 programmer. There's no hope of building it today (the whole thing is based round the Intel 4040 and support devices), but I guess you could modify the design if you were desparate. > on the front panel, hit a button, and a series of RC-timed one shot's > apply the thoroughly bizarre sequence of programming voltages. Yes, the programming algorithm is somewhat strange.... -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From william at ans.net Thu May 22 12:56:12 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705221756.AA13701@interlock.ans.net> > On the other hand, I got some old PCBs that had had the gold connectors > cut off (for 'recycling' :-(), and I intend to at least remove the > socketed IC's from those. They're mostly common 68000 stuff + ethernet + > SCSI+ etc, but they are worth saving, and the boards are useless as-is. An excellent source, and it removes the dilemma of scrapping a goodie. > I'm always a little careful about buying chips at radio rallies > (hamfests). They're the one thing I can't fix if they are defective, so I > don't pay that much for them. On the other hand, I do buy up 2900-series > chips whenever I see them - they are sufficiently rare to be worth > grabbing. I have had very good luck at the fests. Sure, some may be duds, but I would wager that the number is probably less than 1 in 1000 (except for SIMMs - there are at least a few scumbags out there peddling known defective parts). > Argh!!! Sorry. > Indeed. Most serious computer collectors keep all sorts of spares in their > junk box. Would you believe a spare ASR33 motor (50Hz model), head stacks > for a TU16, head assemblies for Northstar disk drives, DEC flip-chip > cards, Anadex printheads, etc, etc, etc. Same here. About two years ago I was helping clear out a warehouse and I took home hundreds of cardboard bins, so some of the junk is actually getting sorted! > Don't forget the 2708 and the 3-rail 2716 (Texas Instruments). Actually, just about any weird old chips should be grabbed. This includes all of the families that are long since gone (300 series ECL, 700 series RTL, 800 and 900 series DTL, 4000 series _TTL_, etc.). There is a company that still produces these chips (I forget the name), buying up the old masks as the original producers pull out. These new replacements, however, are priced for the insane and the U. S. government. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Thu May 22 19:13:14 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221756.AA13701@interlock.ans.net>; from "William Donzelli" at May 22, 97 1:56 pm Message-ID: <199705221813.27040@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> [Buying chips at hamfests....] > I have had very good luck at the fests. Sure, some may be duds, but I > would wager that the number is probably less than 1 in 1000 (except for Yes, I've had good luck as well (and from a suplus place is Southampton called 'Greenweld' who often have obscure chips at low prices). It's just more of a risk - If I buy %random old computer for a few pounds and it doesn't work, then I have a chance of repairing it, or at least extracting some useful bits from it. That's not the case if I buy a dead chip. I am quite sure that most people who sell at rallies/hamfests are honest. Every one I've dealt with has been. It's just that the chips might have been defective before he got them, and are being sold as untested. It's not easy to test some devices after all... > Actually, just about any weird old chips should be grabbed. This includes > all of the families that are long since gone (300 series ECL, 700 series > RTL, 800 and 900 series DTL, 4000 series _TTL_, etc.). Agreed. I try to rescue all I can - it's amazing what does turn up. And those are the sorts of devices I will buy at rallies - there's often no other way to get them - and they are easy to test, and pretty difficult to damage (e.g. by ESD). I don't tend to buy common EPROMs and micros, which is how this thread got started. Don't forget obscure linear devices as well. Does anyone know if the LM379S got used in any cheap 'HiFi' amplifiers, and if so, which ones? It's a dual 6W audio amplifier, which is used as a deflection amplifier in the Vectrex video game, and as a servo amplifier in the Micropolis 1200 disk drives, used in PERQ2T1's and Tekky development systems (and elsewhere). They're next to unobtainable now, so a source would be welcome. > > There is a company that still produces these chips (I forget the name), > buying up the old masks as the original producers pull out. These new > replacements, however, are priced for the insane and the U. S. government. How insane? Are these price so high that I couldn't even consider buying one, or would it be worth getting the odd device to restore a particularly rare computer, or what? > > William Donzelli > william@ans.net > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From dastar at crl.com Thu May 22 14:15:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221705.20647@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill Does this fall under the 2.8 clause of the FAQ?? (note: I am not serious) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Thu May 22 14:57:36 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 In-Reply-To: <199705221512.KAA03686@Kitten.mcs.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, Stephen D. Jensen wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has a Sinclair ZX80 that they would like to sell. > I bought the kit and built one when they first came out. It was my first > home computer! A few years later somebody stole it from our house after my > Wife and I had seperated. Why they would steal that I don't know! I have a > ZX81 but it's just not the same. Of course, it won't be the same not having > the one I built myself but I'd still like to have one for my collection. > I don't have a ZX80 to sell. (I'd like one too.) I can address part of the problem. There is a place which has instructions, part lists, ROM images, schematics, etc. for building a ZX80. Below is the article posted to alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt last December. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: nexp.crl.com!nntp.crl.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!tudelft.nl!elektron.et.tudelft.nl!not-for-mail From: grant@babytalk.demon.co.uk (Grant Searle) Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt Subject: Build your own ZX80 Date: 23 Dec 1996 12:42:13 +0100 Organization: Home Lines: 32 Sender: achhbot@morra.et.tudelft.nl Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: morra.et.tudelft.nl X-NNTP-Posting-Host: babytalk.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 X-ACHHBot: Processed. If you are interested in the internal workings of the ZX80 or ZX81 and would like to build a ZX80 yourself using readilly available components then please check out the following site: www.babytalk.demon.co.uk/zx80/zx80.html The later ZX81 is very similar to the ZX80 except a lot of the ICs in the 80 has been merged into one chip. As a result, you can learn a lot about the workings of the ZX81 by referring to the ZX80 circuit. I have several computers from the start of the 80's but have always liked the Sinclair ZX80 for the following reasons: 1. It was so tacky :) 2. It did not have a single dedicated IC in sight. It is because of the second reason this page has come into existance. Here I show you how to build your own piece of history. ALL parts for the ZX80 are available from most of the larger electronic companies. I hope it is of interest/use. BTW. As you will see from my site I am a very keen ZX80er. However, I don't have one (anymore). If you have one (working, dead or in bits) then please contact me on grant@babytalk.demon.co.uk as I am sure we can work something out. The above site is continually under construction as I will add further details when I have time. All suggestions will be considered. Grant. From william at ans.net Thu May 22 15:17:25 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221813.27040@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199705222017.AA28671@interlock.ans.net> > and pretty difficult to > damage (e.g. by ESD). You must be careful with old CMOS - most from the early 1970s will die quite easily with just a minor shock. TTL and the others can be abused all day... > How insane? Are these price so high that I couldn't even consider buying > one, or would it be worth getting the odd device to restore a particularly > rare computer, or what? I think I remember prices in the 25-50 dollar range for common glue. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 22 16:19:24 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 In-Reply-To: from "Paul E Coad" at May 22, 97 12:57:36 pm Message-ID: <9705222019.AA02142@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 610 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970522/4504954b/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at eleventh.com Sat May 17 08:16:14 1997 From: jeffh at eleventh.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: DD vs QD (Was: Re: FAQ updates/changes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >On Wed, 21 May 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > I've actually had very little problem using _good_quality_ 360k (DSDD) > disks in my Tandy 2000, which has a 720k drive (DSQD). I believe the > magnetic material was the same from the DD to QD, just packed > tighter/finer(?). Am I wrong? I do know that some later T2k's preferred the usage of HD diskettes vice DD ones. This could possibly be a change in the drive mech that Mitsubishi used for the basis of the M4853-1. Mine used to use DD disks just fine, which is what I used since the QD ones were difficult to find and were expensive. Other people I talked to had no luck with the reliability of DD diskettes though and found that the HD ones would work just fine. Jeff jeffh@eleventh.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Osbourne Executive Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu May 22 21:43:14 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Teaco floppy drive excerciser Message-ID: Hi. I recently picked up a Teaco floppy disk tester/excerciser for commodore and apple II disk drives (probably any GCR drive I'm guessing). Unfortunately I got no documentation or interface cables for it. Anybody know anything about it? It looks like it will be a fun gadget and I'd love to get it working. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From MicroAge97 at aol.com Thu May 22 22:41:49 1997 From: MicroAge97 at aol.com (MicroAge97@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 Message-ID: <970522234148_-929013574@emout05.mail.aol.com> i found a page that has the plans to build your own zx80. www.babytalk.demon.co.uk/zx80/zx80.html dave From eifs at thenet.co.uk Thu May 22 17:20:55 1997 From: eifs at thenet.co.uk (Eifion Bedford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Sinclair ZX80 In-Reply-To: <9705222019.AA02142@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Tim Shoppa writes >Hmm... I traded away my ZX80 around about 1983 or so, for a Model 33 ASR. >I still think it's one of the best trades I ever made. Well, there was an ad in Micro Mart today and someone was willing to pay 50UKP for a boxed one... They're definitely the most collectable Sinclair Research machine. Remember tho', if you're after one, to make sure it's not been 'upgraded' to ZX81 spec, as this was possible. I wouldn't part with mine for (almost) anything.... -- Eifion Bedford From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri May 23 00:54:15 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips In-Reply-To: <199705221527.AA29102@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 May 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > Regarding EPROMS and PALs: I would stock up on them, as both are becoming > obsolete. Flash technology has nearly wiped out EPROM demand, just as GALs > and FPGAs are pushing out PALs. I've had this question for some time now: are EPROMs and Flash s compatible (in terms of pin-out, levels, signals, timing, etc)? --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From sfeinsmi at usa.net Fri May 23 13:00:41 1997 From: sfeinsmi at usa.net (Steven J. Feinsmith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Heath References: <199705221507.KAA14007@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3385DB49.4D2BC8CE@usa.net> Hello Tom, I wish to know what kind of Heath you mentioned... I am Heathkit/Zenith die-hard user. Please let me know soon as possible. Thank you, Steven Tom Phelan wrote: > > Hi Ward, > > Would you let me know if you still want this Heath. It's been sitting > in a box in my van for over a week now. If you don't want it I'll > give it to someone else. If you do want it, can we make some > arrangement for the transfer. I have to move it out of here by > Wednesday, next week so, if I don't hear from you by Sat. I'll assume > your not interested. > > Thanks > Tom From chemif at mbox.queen.it Fri May 23 14:49:24 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Spare Chips Message-ID: <199705231949.VAA05808@mbox.queen.it> At 10:12 22/05/97 +0100, you wrote: >In article 100000@vennea.demon.co.uk>, Alexios Chouchoulas >> >> While we're talking about EPROMs, anyone care to suggest a cheap burner? >>Preferably one I can buy in the UK, but any ideas would be lovely. I've >>looked at some, but they're all in the UKP250+ price range. I'm seriously >>considering building my own... >> > > >Alexios > Maplin do two under 200UKP - the EPP1-F at 162.99 and the EPP-2 >199.99 (both prices inclusive of VAT). I bought a EPP1-F a long time ago >at one company I worked at and it seemed OK for small EPROMS/EEPROMS (up >to 128k x 8. Comes with a DOS-based editor and utilities but claims to >work on any computer with an RS232 and terminal software. > >>From the catalogue, the EPP-2 is the same but goes up to 512k / 8Mbit >PROMS. I fully agree: I own a HI-LO (the company name producing the EPP and ALL family) EPP-01A eprom programmer since three years, and never had problems. Features: NMOS/CMOS EPROM : from 2716 to 27512 and 1 Mbit EEPROM: 2816, 2816A, 2817A, 2864A, 28256A Page Mode EPROM : 27513,27011 Quick program time: 20 secs for a 27256 Easy to install Easy to use software Its price here in Italy was abt. 160 UKP (incl. VAT) > But if price doesn't matter and you're looking for performances, take a look at this jewel > > >Hope it helps. > >-- >Riccardo Romagnoli, Forli' - Italy > > From dzander at solaria.sol.net Sat May 24 13:20:11 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: new acquisition Message-ID: <199705241820.NAA06153@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1256 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970524/e8743f11/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun May 25 17:33:31 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: 'Uniform' from Micro Solutions, 1986 Message-ID: <199705252233.SAA07176@unix.aardvarkol.com> I pulled out a disk I had sitting here which I totally forgot I had. It's the program 'Uniform', version 2.02, from Micro Solutions and is copywrited 1986. This is the PC version, and I hadn't tried it before because it's been quite a long time since I had a PC with the 5-1/4" drives. Well, I installed it onto the MS-DOS 2.11 boot disk copy I keep with the IBM 5155 and began trying different CP/M formats with it, including Kaypro 4 and Osbourne Executive formats. It read both formats flawlessly, though I've not tried formatting an Osbourne or Kaypro disk on the PC and then reading it on the real machine since Uniform does that as well. The leaflet which comes with the disk says that on an XT, the program supports 110 different CP/M formats, while on an AT it supports 160 (I'm assuming with a HD disk drive). I knew that I could read a number of different CP/M formats using CP/M 3.0 on the C-128, but hadn't given this program much attention before. Is there anyone out there who still uses this program for data exchange? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com <--- new address ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Amiga 3000, Atari 800, Atari 800XL, Atari MegaST-2, Commodore C-128, Commodore Plus/4, Commodore VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, TRS-80 Model IV Plus Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Sun May 25 20:53:25 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P Message-ID: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Greetings, I'm hoping for a little advice here: While scanning an auction web page (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hok055925) I found an item I have in the garage. which sold there for $76.50. This brings two questions to my mind: 1: Is it worth $76.50? 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer to sell my computer to them? _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From dzander at solaria.sol.net Sun May 25 21:18:14 1997 From: dzander at solaria.sol.net (Douglas Zander) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> from "Barry Peterson" at May 26, 97 01:53:25 am Message-ID: <199705260218.VAA12998@solaria.sol.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1729 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970525/81bfe332/attachment-0001.ksh From danjo at xnet.com Sun May 25 22:18:55 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Greetings, I'm hoping for a little advice here: Gee, it's started already 8-( > While scanning an auction web page > (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hok055925) > I found an item I have in the garage. which sold there for $76.50. > This brings two questions to my mind: > > 1: Is it worth $76.50? No, it worth about $0.50. Of course, you have all the documentation, and the disks that go with it. That might make it worth $1.50. Figure you have to pack it and ship it. That means buy a suitable box, suitable packing material, spend your time packing it, insure it for delivery, carry a possible bad check, and never see the thing again. And then what do you do when the guys says it doesn't work and wants his money back - never mind he doesn't even know how to plug it in! And - oh ya sure - I'll ship it back! - Ya right! It's much better to get rid of it locally - $25 and it yours. Come pick it up! Better for you, better for it. > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > to sell my computer to them? Only to those of us who want to preserve the beasts - rather than sell them off for a profit. (Boy - I'm mean tonight!) BC From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon May 26 01:41:07 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: New Finds... Message-ID: <33893083.128B@goldrush.com> Saturday my wife had chanced upon a Commodore 64 system (computer, 1541 drive, cables, power supply) whith some books & magazines. Since the flea market was closing there was a final offer of $10.00. Needless to say I bought it (for $8.36, all the change I had left), mainly because it was worth $10.00 for the stuff and the disks, books, and magazines caught my attention. Besides the system I got a users guide for the computer and drive, a programmer's reference guide, and a couple software manuals. Many of the disks seem to be copies of stuff, I'll have to scan them to see if there are any lost treasures... The Magazines included 6 Commander magazines from 1983/84 (this is the first time I've had the opportunity to flip though this publication.), Commodore Power/Play June/July 84, a Popular Computing and a Personal Computing magazine (the latter two have very little Commodore coverage and were talking about the Apple II and IBM as on even playing fields.) Also a Scholastic K-Power Collection of computer programs, "10 awsome/original/unusual/super/fantastic/computer puzzles and games" The computer seems to be dead ('m glad he didn't sell it to someone for the $50 he was asking for it), the drive is in great shape (as it helped copy many disks for me today) and the magazines are facinating. In the Magazines: I finally saw an ad for the OSCAR bar code reader, looked good to me, one argument they had in the ad was the unreliability of tapes, heck, I have tapes older than that ad that still work, but it would be cool to have a bar code reader for my computer(s). The issue of Popular Computing had a review on the Jupiter Ace 4000 (looks kinda like a Sinclair ZX80, but has FORTH as it's built-in language) Pretty in-depth too, 5 pages long with a screen shot and an overview of the differences of ACE FORTH to other FORTH standards. The K-power is kinda a rosetta stone of BASICs with similar programs for Adam, Apple, Atari, Commodore 64, IBM PC, TI-99/4A, TRS-80 Color Computer/Model III/4, and VIC-20. Some programs deal with at least low-res graphics and another with music. Later on I fondled a Compupro 10 at a thrift shop, like like it was a multi-user machine with 4 console ports, 3 printer ports, a SCSI/SASI port and an 8" drive port (to compliment it's two 5.25" drives bays it already has. Will have to browse the web and see if I can see what it was about. Larry Anderson -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon May 26 03:01:02 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P References: <199705260702.AAA02208@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3389433E.7596@oboe.calpoly.edu> > On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Gee, it's started already 8-( No, it started a long time ago. > No, it worth about $0.50. Of course, you have all the documentation, and > the disks that go with it. That might make it worth $1.50. It's worth what someone will pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to pay "too much" for anything. It's called supply and demand. > It's much better to get rid of it locally - $25 and it yours. Come pick it > up! Better for you, better for it. Nice if you can find someone locally to take it off your hands. Why do you think there are so many computers at the thrift stores with garage sale price tags on them. The general public doesn't want them. > > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > > to sell my computer to them? > > Only to those of us who want to preserve the beasts - rather than sell > them off for a profit. I don't think there's any harm in trying to get a fair price for anything. We're not talking about selling food to starving people at ridiculous prices and this stuff is selling way below it's original cost. As more of this stuff is trashed and recycled, it's just the way it works. Best thing to do is get your stuff while it's still cheap. Then someday, if you ever get rid of it you can donate it to a needy collector and feel really good about it. I'd really like to pick up a 1964 mustang convertible for $500 but those greedy bastards want more than they cost new! Can you imagine? All I want to do is preserve it. From danjo at xnet.com Mon May 26 09:13:52 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3389433E.7596@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Greg Mast (leaving out the IMPORTANT parts) wrote: > > On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > > Gee, it's started already 8-( > No, it started a long time ago. Really? > > No, it worth about $0.50. Of course, you have all the documentation, and > > the disks that go with it. That might make it worth $1.50. > > It's worth what someone will pay for it. Nobody is forcing anyone to pay > "too much" for anything. It's called supply and demand. > > > It's much better to get rid of it locally - $25 and it yours. Come pick it > > up! Better for you, better for it. What happened to all the important stuff that was here? I was (satirically) suggesting even more! A TRS-80 4P would take at least two boxes with documentation. One big one would have to be shipped by truck (yuck). UPS has size and weight limits (just like the USPS). Packing material can be obtained from corporate dumpsters for less than the purchase price 8-) Most people would buy anything - until they find it costs ANOTHER 50%+ to get it shipped! I mean, at small prices, it's not a problem - unless I sell a DEC PDP-11 for $100 and it costs you $300 to get it. Thats $400 to you and $100 and a lot of headaches for me. I don't think I would sell it! That's why I said --- > Nice if you can find someone locally to take it off your hands. Why do you > think there are so many computers at the thrift stores with garage sale > price tags on them. The general public doesn't want them. The general public doesn't count - collectors have never been in *the general public*. > > > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > > > to sell my computer to them? > > > > Only to those of us who want to preserve the beasts - rather than sell > > them off for a profit. Where is my (I'm mean tonight line)??? You really think $76.50 would be a profit? > I don't think there's any harm in trying to get a fair price for anything. > We're not talking about selling food to starving people at ridiculous prices > and this stuff is selling way below it's original cost. As more of this > stuff is trashed and recycled, it's just the way it works. Best thing to do > is get your stuff while it's still cheap. Then someday, if you ever get rid > of it you can donate it to a needy collector and feel really good about it. Now there's an oxymoron - *needy collector*! > I'd really like to pick up a 1964 mustang convertible for $500 but those > greedy bastards want more than they cost new! Can you imagine? All I want to > do is preserve it. My preference goes to the Corvair and the Volkwagon - because they were inexpensive and worked. I see our differences more plainly now. (Feeling better today) BC From gram at terra.cnct.com Mon May 26 10:24:07 1997 From: gram at terra.cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: 'Uniform' from Micro Solutions, 1986 In-Reply-To: <199705252233.SAA07176@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 May 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > I knew that I could read a number of different CP/M formats using > CP/M 3.0 on the C-128, but hadn't given this program much attention before. > Is there anyone out there who still uses this program for data exchange? Haven't used it in years, but remember it well. During the 1988 television writers' strike, it seems that every writer in Los Angeles County decided that since there was spare time available it was time to change computers. Many of them had bought their old Kaypro systems from Data Systems West in Sherman Oaks and naturally went back there to buy shiny new Zenith laptops, especially since they'd still be able to run (newer versions of) WordStar and Scriptor. Despite my nominal primary function being support of SCO Xenix, AT&T Unix and (ugh) Novell systems, I must of spent most of three months using Uniform on a Hyundai desktop box laplinked to these new Zeniths copying gagloads of old scripts from Kaypro disks to Zenith SuperSports. The mind boggles. BTW, Uniform did _not_ work on a SCO Xenix system under the VP/ix MS-DOS emulator. Thought you might like to know. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Mon May 26 17:09:47 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: New Finds... In-Reply-To: <33893083.128B@goldrush.com> Message-ID: > Later on I fondled a Compupro 10 at a thrift shop, like like it was a > multi-user machine with 4 console ports, 3 printer ports, a SCSI/SASI > port and an 8" drive port (to compliment it's two 5.25" drives bays it > already has. Will have to browse the web and see if I can see what it > was about. Hi. The CompuPro line is pretty much the center of my collection so if you have any questions, let me know (I have four models, docs, disks, spares, you name it...) Sounds like what you were looking at was a CP 816/10. Standard config on a pre-configured unit was 1 8088 mother processor, 4 Z80 processors, 1 5.25" floppy drive, 1 20MB hard disk. This model was different from the other CP machines in that it was cased in a big grey PC-styled desktop case. Other CP models were case in what they called the "IMSAI style case" which was just a big box (no switches). Really, anything could be in that box - many of the compupro machines seem to have been sold bare (case, PS, and S-100 bus) and it was left to you to stuff cards in to make a computer out of it. Standard software seems to have been CP/M 3, CP/M-86, CCP/M, DR-NET, and some Sorcim applications. If you didn't pick it up, I'd recommend it - they're great to play with and run a wide variety of OSs with the appropriate add-in cards. Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From groberts at mitre.org Mon May 26 20:39:43 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: bringing heath 120 back to life Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970526213943.00865b00@mail90> i'm trying to fire up the old Heath H-120. it seems to have "forgotten" how to see the floppy disk controller, i get: DEVAULT DEVICE CONTROLLER ERROR i've checked quite a few things (e.g. reseat card and chips, look for cold solder joits, etc. - see my more extensive posting on comp.sys.zenith.z100). it seems like maybe getting hold of another H207 card (floppy controller) would be worth trying - or maybe even a whole Z100 system for swapping parts. are these still showing up at auctions? (DOD was of course a big Z100 customer). How do i find out about these auctions? anyone know of a source for spares or help with this sort of thing? thanks. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon May 26 23:17:32 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! Message-ID: This past weekend, my aunt cleaned out her basement and presented me with all the old computer stuff she had stored there. Not much but I did get an old XT and a pretty complete IIe system. First, here's what I got: About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) About 10 feet of books including (and I don't know why) users manuals and tape software for an "Epson HX20 Notebook Computer" (didn't get the computer tho :( looks neat no the cover) Since I am new to Apple's and really don't know what I'm talking about I will "attempt" to describe the system I got. Whomever had it before my aunt really did a number on it; all the punch-out plates in the back are gone and numerous ribbon cables are coming out every little crevice! First the basics: It came with 2 Disk II Disk Drives which I am still not sure even work. OPening the iie up I find: CPU has been replaced (?) with a ZIPCHIP 4 (?) In slots: AUX: This is probabl;y the most interesting board. It says Ramworks II on it and has a piggyback board attached to it that I think is supposed to be a RGB board. 1: is empty 2: has a Grappler + Parallel Printer INterface 3: Empty 4: Mouse Interface 5: Empty 6: Disk II Interface 7: (This one stumps me) Its a pretty long board and attaches by way of a wire to a panel on the back that says "VIDEX" The panel has a toggle switch and two RCA ports that say "M" and "A" Is this another Video board? OK, here's the problem! When I turn it on......nothing happens! The enhanced light comes on (?) and all I get on the screen is a sqaure pattern of reversed @ sysmbols and such. What is this? Other than that, the computer beeps once before this appears and the drives just blink their lights real quick (no motor spins, etc.) What's wrong here guys? Thanks, Les From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Tue May 27 06:50:13 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul Message-ID: I just started paying attention to garage sales this month, because of this list and because my traditional computer supply (Salvation Army) has dried up. I'm very glad I have! Last weekend was my first trip out, but I only managed to find two sales (one of which was in the paper) but this weekend the garage sale season seems to have begun in earnest. There were only two sales listed in the paper for my little town, and one of these was just up the street and around the bend, so I went there first. I ended up buying an Apple /// for $2 and carrying it home on my bicycle! (Not an easy task). I then went back for the cheap green Amdek monitor for another $2, because I have far more computers than monitors. I had to ask if there were any disks to go with the machine, and I was handed a box that I went through until I found one with a label that read "Apple ///", so I knew the disks matched the computer. There were no manuals. After plugging the thing in at home and finding that the beast worked, I went out again. I must've visited five more places (by following signs on telephone poles) before I came across the next thing that was mildly interesting: a Commodore filing cabinet with the chicken-lips logo. Not exactly related to this group, I suppose, and not the kind of thing I collect, but interesting nonetheless. Several stops later I hit the jackpot. Not for me, so much, but for a friend of mine who is out of school, out of work, bored, and constantly coming over to my place to play video games on my computers. :) This was obviously the home of a computer nerd like myself, as there was a complete Apple ][+ clone system and a complete Commodore 64 system for sale, as well as a large box full of books. I picked up four books: "The Explorers Guide to the ZX81", "Timex/Sinclair Interfacing", Jim Butterfield's "Machine Language for the Commodore 64, 128, and Other Commodore Computers", and the "Commodore 64 Troubleshooting & Repair Guide". I also picked up a complete(?) boxed GEOS 2.0 set (which probably should've stayed with the 64 system, come to think of it) and the owner parted out the joystick for his Apple ][+ (mine fell apart years ago). Total cost was $10. I rode straight home from this place, called my friend, and had lunch. He showed up with his car, and we went back to that place together to pick up the C64 system. He got a boxed C64 (old brown one), boxed 1541, 1802 colour monitor, dot matrix printer with Commodore serial ports on it, 1351 mouse in box with docs, 300bps modem in box with docs, a couple of books, a hand-killing Atari joystick, a boxed copy of Atarisoft's "Track and Field" with 3-button arcade controller, and datasette, for $35. Then we went over to the next town, because there was supposed to be some huge 40-family sale at some apartment complex, but there wasn't anything interesting there (perhaps everything was gone by then). I spotted a sign for another garage sale on the next street, so we walked over there. There I picked up an Intellivision with 6 boxed cartridges (Sea Battle, Vectron, Sub Hunt, Utopia, Chess, Armor Battle) and a BIZARRE piece of IBM equipment: an external 5-1/4" floppy drive, model 4869. I figure someone important must have an opinion on the Commodore 64, because there was an earthquake (4.5 on the Richter scale) while we were setting it up to test it. :) Anyway, not everything was perfect. The Intellivision doesn't work 100%... background graphics are OK, but most of the games have totally munged sprites. It looks like the sprites are being read out of the wrong area of memory. Oh, and background graphics ARE screwed up in Sub Hunt as well... not that it really matters, as all of the docs for that game are in German for whatever weird reason. :) There was NO useful software for the Apple ///, only something called "Apple /// Utilities" that let me make a backup of itself. There was also an incomplete copy of Pascal 1.0. Going by the info I gleaned from checking out the system config saved on the Utilities disk, the system was set up to have two floppy drives and a hard drive, but I saw no signs of any extra stuff at the garage sale. There are TWO Apple /// Profile I/O boards in the machine, though, as well as a parallel printer card. The power supply of this machine makes a LOT of noise. Is it supposed to? I found out that there is a monitor built into the machine, too (press Control-OpenApple-Reset) but apart from dumping memory eight bytes at a time and the ability to change the values stored in bytes, I can't figure out if the monitor can do anything. Some of the hardware is very Apple ][ish, though... when romping through memory with the monitor, I of course stumbled into $C000 and beyond, and the speaker sounded in the correct place, and the screen switched to high-res mode. Is this thing just a glorified Apple ][ with an incompatible OS? I took the machine apart, too, and I found a place for a battery on the motherboard, with no battery or battery cover in it. Does the /// have a system clock? Oh, and it has 256K, and the chips are neat little brown chips with gold plates on their backs. 4164s. They look just like the ones in my weird PET expansion board, except that the pins aren't gold. I heeded the warning sticker and didn't open the power supply. :) There was a loose screw, and another spall flat piece of metal, roaming about inside the keyboard. :/ Does anyone know if the Apple ][+ or //e can be made to read/write Apple /// disks in any manner that would be useful for getting files to it? Or do I have to get software for it in actual disk form at first, before I can get the thing to do anything useful? Can the /// emulate a ][? Now, on the subject of that weirdo IBM 4869 disk drive... what does this plug into? The guy I bought it from said it was for an old PC. It has a 37-pin connector on the end of its cable. It's LARGER in two dimensions than even a Commodore 1541 drive. Its power switch is very high quality. :) Would this be a 160K drive? I haven't ripped it apart (yet) to see how many heads the thing has. Pretty cool day, though. It looks like I'll be doing this quite often in future. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 27 07:37:40 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >...and a BIZARRE >piece of IBM equipment: an external 5-1/4" floppy drive, model 4869. Actually, if one worked in an IBM shop, they were quite commonplace... especially when the PS/2's came out. The PS/2's had *no* way to hook an internal 5.25" floppy (due to size of case... and IBM's wanting to create a new standard...) so you had to go external if you wanted/needed to share data with other machines with 5.25" drives. >Now, on the subject of that weirdo IBM 4869 disk drive... what does this >plug into? The guy I bought it from said it was for an old PC. It has a >37-pin connector on the end of its cable. It's LARGER in two dimensions >than even a Commodore 1541 drive. Its power switch is very high quality. >:) Would this be a 160K drive? I haven't ripped it apart (yet) to see >how many heads the thing has. The size of the drive is mainly because of the PS & case (the case is *very* well RFI shielded)... the drive itself is a standard 1/2 height 360K 40TKDSDD 48TPI drive, with a standard 34-pin edge connector. I have one sitting on my desk at home, modified to use a standard cable (read: hole cut with dremel tool in top of case to fit cable) so I can use it with either my PC or with my Tandy CoCo3. *Very* nice drive. Trying to find a few more, so I can floppyize my CoCo2 and CoCo1. If you (or anyone) needs more info on this drive, lemme know. But I can tell you, that just taking it apart is *fun*, if you have 3-4 hours to get it apart and back together. I've had mine disassembled 3-4 times now, to figure where to cut holes & stuff for my cable mods. Enjoy! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Tue May 27 10:27:26 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705271527.KAA00929@fudge.uchicago.edu> more@camlaw.rutgers.edu said, > Opening the iie up I find: > > CPU has been replaced (?) with a ZIPCHIP 4 (?) This is a 4MHz accelerator that replaces the original 1MHz CPU. If I'm remembering right, you hold down the ESC key while turning the power on to configure what speed you want to run it at. > AUX: This is probabl;y the most interesting board. It says Ramworks II > on it and has a piggyback board attached to it that I think is supposed to > be a RGB board. This is an Applied Engineering 80-column/memory expansion card. There were piggyback RGB cards available for this, so that's probably right. > 2: has a Grappler + Parallel Printer INterface That's strange... printers were traditionally in slot 1. > 3: Empty You can't do much with slot 3 when there's an 80-column card in the Aux slot, because as far as software is concerned the 80-column card looks like it's in slot 3. > 7: (This one stumps me) Its a pretty long board and attaches by way of a > wire to a panel on the back that says "VIDEX" The panel has a toggle > switch and two RCA ports that say "M" and "A" Is this another Video > board? This is probably another 80-column card, but the old II+ style instead of the newer IIe Aux style. The M and A almost certainly are the "monitor" and "apple" plugs; you should probably run another video cable from the computer's video output to the A plug, then another wire from the M plug to the monitor itself. The toggle switch will then probably choose which signal actually appears on the monitor. The newer 80-column cards are memory-mapped, but these old ones act essentially like serial terminals that happen to share the Apple's keyboard and monitor. > When I turn it on......nothing happens! > The enhanced light comes on (?) Actually it's just the power light... but when you got the Enhancement kit (which gave basic lowercase support, added graphics characters to the character generator, and gave you a few other random features) you got an "Enhanced" sticker to put over the power light. > and all I get on the screen is a sqaure pattern of reversed @ > sysmbols and such. What is this? This is what's in video memory when the power comes on, before the Autostart ROM has the chance to clear the screen and start searching for disk drives. > Other than that, the computer beeps once before this appears and the > drives just blink their lights real quick (no motor spins, etc.) I'm surprised it beeps but doesn't clear the screen or search for disks, because the beep means it is making it sufficiently far into the ROM to start initializing the computer. It could be that one of the ROM chips has gone bad but the other hasn't. Try hitting the Reset key and see if that'll give you a Basic ("]") or Monitor ("*") prompt. If you'd like to just swap the motherboard for one that definitely works, I have a spare one. Let me know if you could use it. eric From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 11:40:48 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Well, thanks to a mobile GPS, I managed to visit 30 thrifts in one day this weekend, and ended up with: - Atari 400 - IBM Portable PC 5155 - Two more Osborne 1's (for trade) - An Indus GT floppy drive for Atari 8bit (this is the best Atari 8bit drive ever made!) - Apple Disk II new in box - Another TRS-80 Model I (system unit only) - Atari 1040ST and SC124 mono monitor (floppy wasn't working but I fixed it--I think) - Another Mac 128 (with bad floppy, I have the parts to fix) - Pile of diskettes for the TRS-80 Model 4/4P, including original TRSDOS, SCRIPSIT, ZORK I, etc. - Manuals for my TRS-80 Model 4P - Some shrink wrapped games for the Apple II, Atari 8bit, and C64 - TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the expansion bay) - Atari 65XE game computer - Atari 7800 ProSystem with PS, RF adapter and 3 joysticks - Colecovision driving expansion module Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 11:45:02 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F7888A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> This seems to be the weekend for Apple II series boot problems! My Apple II+ will boot a diskette called the "Zardax Utilities" but it won't boot anything else. When I boot with the Zardax Utilities diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the screen, some disk activity, then the Zardax menu comes up. When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage characters are added. This happens with various bootable diskettes, including some brand-new shrinkwrapped Atarisoft games (whose docs say they are bootable). With the garbage on the screen, if I hit Shift/Break or Ctrl/Break or whatever, I can get to the ] BASIC prompt. I've switched out the Drive 1 and the diskette adapter card. Any idea what's wrong? thanks Kai From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 12:04:36 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend haul story) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the US, this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall and 16" deep. It has a wireless infrared keyboard and wireless hand-held trackball! I never knew these were sold in the United States. It's marked 60Hz so it's not an import. About all I know about it is from a couple of web references -- 1985, 8086 CPU, 512K RAM, dual 720K drives, ran a modified OEM version of MS-DOS. Any additional information -- and pointers to a boot disk -- appreciated! thanks Kai > ---------- > From: Kai Kaltenbach > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 9:40 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Another weekend haul story > > Well, thanks to a mobile GPS, I managed to visit 30 thrifts in one day > this weekend, and ended up with: > > - Atari 400 > - IBM Portable PC 5155 > - Two more Osborne 1's (for trade) > - An Indus GT floppy drive for Atari 8bit (this is the best Atari 8bit > drive ever made!) > - Apple Disk II new in box > - Another TRS-80 Model I (system unit only) > - Atari 1040ST and SC124 mono monitor (floppy wasn't working but I > fixed > it--I think) > - Another Mac 128 (with bad floppy, I have the parts to fix) > - Pile of diskettes for the TRS-80 Model 4/4P, including original > TRSDOS, SCRIPSIT, ZORK I, etc. > - Manuals for my TRS-80 Model 4P > - Some shrink wrapped games for the Apple II, Atari 8bit, and C64 > - TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the > expansion bay) > - Atari 65XE game computer > - Atari 7800 ProSystem with PS, RF adapter and 3 joysticks > - Colecovision driving expansion module > > Kai > From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Tue May 27 12:02:22 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F7888A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199705271702.MAA01286@fudge.uchicago.edu> kaikal@MICROSOFT.com says, > My Apple II+ will boot a diskette called the "Zardax Utilities" but it > won't boot anything else. ... > When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the > screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage characters > are added. My best guess is that maybe you have a 13-sector (DOS 3.2) disk controller and one 13-sector disk (the one that works), and the rest of your disks are 16-sector so the 13-sector controller doesn't know what to do with them. Unfortunately I can't remember where to peek to find out the DOS or controller version number, so I don't know how you could verify this. The other alternative is that if your Apple II+ has less than 48k of memory, the other disks may be expecting a 48k system and loading DOS into a part of memory that doesn't exist on your computer. The Zardax Utilities disk may be one with a relocatable DOS image on it (a "master" disk) created with "MASTER CREATE" and the rest are just plain fixed-address disks. This would certainly explain why random junk was getting loaded into video memory instead of where it belongs. eric From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Tue May 27 12:20:19 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 09:40:48 -0700, someone said: >- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the >expansion bay) The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue May 27 18:20:58 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend haul In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com>; from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 27, 97 10:04 am Message-ID: <199705271720.17807@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the US, > this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall and 16" > deep. It has a wireless infrared keyboard and wireless hand-held > trackball! I've never heard of an F2, but I have the original Apricot PC (wired keyboard with a little LCD display on it), with schematics, and also the TechRef for the F1, which sounds a little like your machine. That TechRef is available from Mauritron for about \pounds 20.00, and is pretty useful if you want to get amongst the machine. > I never knew these were sold in the United States. It's marked 60Hz so > it's not an import. About all I know about it is from a couple of web > references -- 1985, 8086 CPU, 512K RAM, dual 720K drives, ran a modified > OEM version of MS-DOS. The original Apricot drives were 360K - _single sided_ 80 track. I guess later machines had double-sided ones. The original Apricot PC had an 8089 I/O coprocessor (a very fancy DMA engine) in it, next to the 8086. I think this was dropped in the F1 (which had no DMA at all), Dunno about the F2. There was a TI sound chip, and standard-ish (not PC-standard, but useable!) serial and printer ports. The video system was nothing short of _strange_, though. There were also video cards that fitted into the expansion slots that may have been more normal (I have no info on these). The disk controller was Western Digital (some flavour of 279x I think), and in many ways nicer than the Intel/NEC one used in PCs. As to expansion cards, I've seen : Internal Modem (300/300 and 1200/75 I think, using AM7910) Colour Video (CGA-like?) HiRes mono video (No idea) Winchester (ST506, of course) External Floppy (2 more 3.5" drives) Network (No idea, but not Ethernet. Corvus something-or-other?) I've also seen an ISA card (16 bit AT thing) that accepted an Apricot card as a daughterboard and let you use the Apricot cards in a normal PC. > Kai > > - IBM Portable PC 5155 That's an XT + CGA in a portable case, as you doubtless know. I can provide info on that if you need it (I have one, and the TechRefs) -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Tue May 27 18:25:37 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <199705271702.MAA01286@fudge.uchicago.edu>; from "Eric Fischer" at May 27, 97 12:02 (noon) Message-ID: <199705271725.18607@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > My best guess is that maybe you have a 13-sector (DOS 3.2) disk > controller and one 13-sector disk (the one that works), and the > rest of your disks are 16-sector so the 13-sector controller > doesn't know what to do with them. Unfortunately I can't remember > where to peek to find out the DOS or controller version number, > so I don't know how you could verify this. I seem to remember that if you pull the disk controller card, the 13 sector PROMs say 'P5' and 'P6' on them, while the 16 sector ones are 'P5A' and 'P6A'. > > The other alternative is that if your Apple II+ has less than 48k > of memory, the other disks may be expecting a 48k system and loading > DOS into a part of memory that doesn't exist on your computer. The I can't remember where to peek to find the top of memory, but anyway, it's easier to flip the lid and see what RAM chips are fitted. Early Apple ]['s can take either 4K DRAMs or 16K ones (4116's), with little jumper modules that are used to strap the signals appropriately. Later apples only take 16K DRAMs. The RAM chips are inside the while rectangle on the motherboard. There are 3 rows of 8 chips. If you don't have 3 rows full of 4116's, it's time to upgrade - it's very easy to do. > eric > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 27 12:32:37 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527133237.009725d0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Barry Peterson said: >On Tue, 27 May 1997 09:40:48 -0700, someone said: > > >>- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the >>expansion bay) > >The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never >really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. Ummmm... you mean it never caught on *then*... Now we have Java, which is similar to what the P-code concept is... P-code compliled under UCSD Pascal on a Tandy Color Computer (MC6809) could run unmodified on a TI-99/4A (TMS9900). JAVM - Just Another Virtual Machine. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Tue May 27 12:51:34 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:40 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527133237.009725d0@mail.northernway.net> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <3.0.1.32.19970527133237.009725d0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33921e45.5121426@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 13:32:37 -0400, someone said: >>The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never >>really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. > >Ummmm... you mean it never caught on *then*... Actually, I meant that the P-Code Card (TI's version) never caught on then (or since). Now, in addition to a spelling checker, I need an _idea checker_ which knows what I mean, rather than what I type! _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 14:54:43 1997 From: MARTIN at paladio.demon.co.uk (Martin Evans) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend haul story) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: In article <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F788BB@RED-65- MSG.dns.microsoft.com>, Kai Kaltenbach writes >Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the US, >this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall and 16" >deep. It has a wireless infrared keyboard and wireless hand-held >trackball! > >I never knew these were sold in the United States. It's marked 60Hz so >it's not an import. About all I know about it is from a couple of web >references -- 1985, 8086 CPU, 512K RAM, dual 720K drives, ran a modified >OEM version of MS-DOS. > >Any additional information -- and pointers to a boot disk -- >appreciated! > >thanks > >Kai > Yes, they were sold in the UK. I can remember seeing lots of them around second-hand so I don't think they were very popular. They weren't a proper IBM compatible because of their modified MSDOS so maybe once their owners found this out they dumped 'em, but I think they came with a standard suite of programs. I can also remember that or a similar model having a microphone for note-taking. Sorry, I can't give you a contact for booting. -- Martin Evans From groberts at mitre.org Tue May 27 16:21:03 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970527172103.008566c0@mail90> At 05:20 PM 5/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >>- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is > >The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never >really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. UCSD Pascal system compiled to an intermediate "P-Code" which required a virtual machine (p-code interpreter) to run. this gives you platform independence. it seems all good ideas come back to haunt us - this is exactly how Java works of course (except we have Java virtual machines instead of p-code interpreters). Since there were performance concerns there actually was a "Pascal engine" which executed native P-code (again like Sun's java-based processors of today). Now a pascal engine would seem to be a real collectible! - i don't think many were sold. unfortunately UCSD Pascal was wiped out along with CP/M and a lot of other good stuff when DOS swept the world. I used to run UCSD Pascal on a system called a "Terak" - anyone ever see one of these? they were pretty cool (wish i had one now). It was LSI-11 based and could run DEC real time OSes as well (can't remember which ones). I used to have 8" floppies for this with all the source code for UCSD pascal and tools (it was all originally in the public domain I think since it was university based). unfortunately i didn't have the foresight to transfer to a more modern media and I have no idea where this all is now. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue May 27 08:48:11 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Another weekend haul story References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F78880@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <3.0.1.32.19970527172103.008566c0@mail90> Message-ID: <338AE61B.664E@unix.aardvarkol.com> Glenn Roberts wrote: > unfortunately UCSD Pascal was wiped out along with CP/M and a lot of other > good stuff when DOS swept the world. I have copies of the UCSD p-System, IV2.1 R3.4, dated 1985 for the IBM PC, both the boot and utilities disk. I also have a book titled something like 'Introduction to UCSD Pascal', though it's not handy at the moment. I do know it was authored by the programmer that originated the system. I've booted this system recently on the 5155, along with every other early PC OS I have here, but have yet to get deep into it. On a slightly different note, I finally found a Commodore C-16 today!! To make the find even nicer was the fact that it was boxed with manual, warranty registration card, and the C-16 Tutorial Catrtridge, which was also still boxed. I've yet to plug it up, but am quite looking forward to it. Jeff -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore C-128D, C-16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue May 27 17:55:30 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Current for trade/wanted list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F9DF61@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> FOR TRADE: - Osborne 1 (with copy of Osborne CP/M system disk) - Kaypro 2 (good condition, no boot disk, though it's available through the cp/m archive) - Commodore PET 2001 (full size graphics keyboard version, looks great, one small hole drilled in front panel, probably for a switch) - Tandy Color Computer 1 (good condition, some cosmetic wear at hand positions) - Macintosh 128 with keyboard and mouse - Macintosh 512 in original box with keyboard and mouse - VIC-20 in original box with PS - Commodore 64 in original box with PS - Timex-Sinclair ZX1000 (no PS but it takes standard 9VDC I believe) (game systems) - Vectrex system, very rare, yes this is the original *vector graphic monitor* console game system by Milton Bradley/GCE - Odyssey^2 system, PS, joysticks, in original box - Intellivision system, captive joypads & integral PS - Colecovision system, 2 controllers, PS WANTED: - Exidy Sorcerer - Processor Tech Sol-20 - Apple II (no suffix) - Apple Lisa - Apple /// - Compucolor II (software, parts, etc.) - TI 99/4A disk operating system cartridge - Expansion Interface for TRS-80 Model I - Tandy floppy for TRS-80 Model I - DOS master disks for Apple II+ - Tandy Color Computer I 5.25" disk software Kai From jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org Tue May 27 23:56:10 1997 From: jonathan at holly.ninja.ml.org (Jonathan Hunter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Forgot one more! UK folks pls comment (RE: Another weekend Message-ID: <230569A3F96@holly.ninja.ml.org> > Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:04:36 -0700 > From: Kai Kaltenbach > Almost forgot - I also picked up an Apricot F2. For those in the > US, this is one bizarre machine. It's only about 7" wide, 4" tall [...] > > Any additional information -- and pointers to a boot disk -- > appreciated! If you (or anybody else) want, I can copy your message into the Fidonet "APRICOT" support echo. There aren't all that many messages in there at the moment, but I am sure that there are still folk with working Apricot machines, that would be glad to help. Let me know, and I'll post your messages in there for you, and forward replies either to this list, or back to you personally. Best wishes, ___ _ _ ___ _ _| (_)(\)(-) | (-)(-)(\) From josh at netins.net Tue May 27 18:10:16 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Current for trade/wanted list Message-ID: <199705272308.SAA10045@ins3.netins.net> I am intrested in the macs, the 128 & 512. How much? I do have a few dos 3.3 master disks for the II series (the origional apple disks!). Intrested? I'll try to dig them out! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue May 27 19:41:50 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Atari 800 XL (fwd) Message-ID: If you're looking for an Atari you might want to talk to this guy. Bill ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:29:18 -0700 From: Steve To: bill@booster.bothell.washington.edu Subject: Atari 800 XL Hi Bill I have an Atari 800 XL along with several cartridges, tapes with programs and the 1010 player. This machine is like new as I take care of my equipment. I haven't used it for several years and have been thinking about selling everything. Even back then I saw how computers were advancing and I decided not to try to keep up. Last year I finally decided to buy a new computer. Quantex with P133, 2.1 gig HD, etc. I was into the computer thing in the late 50's early 60's when still a kid. If you know of anyone who would be interested in this equipment, which is in cherry condition and all power supplies, cables etc come with it along with several programs on tape (Zaxxon, Chess, Slot Machine, Sky Chart, E-Factor and LOTS more), several carts (Missile Command, Donkey Kong, Defenders...and more). Thanks....................Steve From: Steve Hagensicker <---<----->---> stevemr2@televar.com Homepage: Netsurfer Central <-----> http://www.televar.com/~stevemr2/ From transit at primenet.com Tue May 27 21:59:42 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: P-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <338d173e.3321973@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997 09:40:48 -0700, someone said: > > > >- TI 99/4A "P-Code Module", whatever the heck that is (goes in the > >expansion bay) > > The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never > really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. It was to be a machine-independent interpreted pseudo-machine code (hmmm...), much the same as Java is today. I remember versions of the P-code intepreter for IBM-PC and Apple II, as well as TI. (There were also versions for non-consumer machines such as Teraks) Theoretically, a p-code compiled program would run on any of these systems (of course, differences in screen size and disk format made things a little more involved. . .) From transit at primenet.com Tue May 27 22:06:29 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: More p-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <33921e45.5121426@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997 13:32:37 -0400, someone said: > > >>The P-Code card allows you to run "universal" software. It never > >>really caught on. I have the software, UCSD Pascal stuff mainly. > > > >Ummmm... you mean it never caught on *then*... > > Actually, I meant that the P-Code Card (TI's version) never caught on > then (or since). Since the thing cost at least $300 new, I'm not surprised. (Of course, I don't remember TI really promoting the P-code card, at least not to "home" users. . .) Also, anyone remembers TI's videodisc controller card? I remember some of the ads and catalogs saying something to the effect of "The Videodisc controller is for industrial use only, it is not for use in the home" From transit at primenet.com Tue May 27 22:10:21 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527172103.008566c0@mail90> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > > unfortunately UCSD Pascal was wiped out along with CP/M and a lot of other > good stuff when DOS swept the world. Hey, DOS *is* CP/M as far as I'm concerned (look how long it took to kick that 8.3 filename habit! :-) > > I used to run UCSD Pascal on a system called a "Terak" - anyone ever see > one of these? they were pretty cool (wish i had one now). It was LSI-11 > based and could run DEC real time OSes as well (can't remember which ones). > I used to have 8" floppies for this with all the source code for UCSD > pascal and tools (it was all originally in the public domain I think since > it was university based). unfortunately i didn't have the foresight to > transfer to a more modern media and I have no idea where this all is now. I remember using a Terak in undergrad school, around 1984 or so. There's a page out on the web dedicated to preserving these beasts; you might try typing in "Terak" to one of the searchengines. . . From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue May 27 23:11:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 27, 97 08:10:21 pm Message-ID: <9705280311.AA00725@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 316 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970527/d0749eb2/attachment-0001.ksh From zmerch at northernway.net Tue May 27 22:39:57 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970527233955.00aea720@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Charles P. Hobbs happened to blather: >Hey, DOS *is* CP/M as far as I'm concerned (look how long it took to >kick that 8.3 filename habit! :-) It is not easy to calculate how long it took for them to kick the habit, as the habit has not yet been kicked... think of it as still being on the nicotine patch. The long filenames of Win95 are only a *bunch* of 8.3 filename placeholders conveniently disguised to the end user. Wanna waste a whole weekend over nothing? Run MS-DOS 6.22's scandisk/defrag on a Win95 volume and see how long it takes you to straighten that mess out... it's easier to reformat and reinstall. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 27 22:52:19 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705271527.KAA00929@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > more@camlaw.rutgers.edu said, > > > Opening the iie up I find: > > > > CPU has been replaced (?) with a ZIPCHIP 4 (?) > > This is a 4MHz accelerator that replaces the original 1MHz CPU. > If I'm remembering right, you hold down the ESC key while turning > the power on to configure what speed you want to run it at. > Just for "fun" I did this and some interesting things happened... 1. The garbage disappeared and "Apple //e" was printed at the top and the drive 1 light came on. I put in the first disk I grabbed and it came up with the message "Unable to Identify Language in MotherBoard E0 ROM. PLease replace that ROM and Reboot." What's this mean? 2. Hit escape again and got a ] prompt which someone said was a Basic prompt. Mad a stupid basic proggy, ran it, it worked. 3. Tried the reset-esc thing again but this time found a DOS 3.3 disk. DOS 3.3 APPLE II PLUS OR ROMCAERD aetc.etcetc. was printed... It come s up withthe ] prompt again. Is this what its supposed to do? Is there nothing wrong with this thing then? Could it be something stupid? (wrong thing in wrong slot?) > > This is probably another 80-column card, but the old II+ style > instead of the newer IIe Aux style. The M and A almost certainly > are the "monitor" and "apple" plugs; you should probably run another Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in there? > If you'd like to just swap the motherboard for one that definitely > works, I have a spare one. Let me know if you could use it. > If something truly is wrong with it then by all means, yes, I am interested... Thanks, Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Tue May 27 22:55:11 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Terak's (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970527233955.00aea720@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > It is not easy to calculate how long it took for them to kick the habit, as > the habit has not yet been kicked... think of it as still being on the > nicotine patch. The long filenames of Win95 are only a *bunch* of 8.3 > filename placeholders conveniently disguised to the end user. > Yeah, what a waste. It probably would've been better to just live with the 8+3! > Wanna waste a whole weekend over nothing? Run MS-DOS 6.22's scandisk/defrag > on a Win95 volume and see how long it takes you to straighten that mess Wanna have a "I feel real stupid contest?" I've done this TWICE!!! :( Les From BigLouS at aol.com Tue May 27 23:15:41 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! Message-ID: <970528001539_487126600@emout04.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-27 23:56:45 EDT, you write: > Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in > there? If when you boot the machine it comes up with Apple IIe then you have an enhanced IIE. If it says Apple II then you have an unenhanced IIe. Part of the enhancement upgrade involved replacing roms on the motherboard so perhaps the upgrade was done improperly (unlikely). Pulling cards is the best way to isolate the problem. First pull the videx card. If that doesn't solve the problem then pull the AE card, the mouse card and finally the printer card. If your still having problems then you may want to replace the Zip chip with a stock 65C02 (an enhanced IIe uses a 65C02 rather than a 6502). If you still have problems then you may want to try a different controller card or just throw the thing out the window. :-) Lou From bm_pete at ix.netcom.com Wed May 28 00:07:07 1997 From: bm_pete at ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: More p-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <338fbceb.45734894@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 27 May 1997 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >Also, anyone remembers TI's videodisc controller card? I remember some of >the ads and catalogs saying something to the effect of "The Videodisc >controller is for industrial use only, it is not for use in the home" It's PHP 2300 "Video Controller", and listed in 1982 for $699.95! (I didn't buy one) _______________ Barry Peterson bm_pete@ix.netcom.com Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Wed May 28 00:02:58 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199705280502.AAA02551@fudge.uchicago.edu> more@camlaw.rutgers.edu said, > > If I'm remembering right, you hold down the ESC key while turning > > the power on to configure what speed you want to run it at. > > Just for "fun" I did this and some interesting things happened... > 1. The garbage disappeared and "Apple //e" was printed at the top and the > drive 1 light came on. Hmmm... sounds like something in your system definitely doesn't like running at 4MHz but works fine at 1MHz. > I put in the first disk I grabbed and it came up with the message > "Unable to Identify Language in MotherBoard E0 ROM. PLease replace > that ROM and Reboot." What's this mean? The ROM BASIC intrepreter begins at address $E000. There were various replacement ROMs you could get that would keep copy protected programs from exercising so much control over the computer... and I'd guess this disk, whatever it is, doesn't recognize the Enhanced IIe ROM (or maybe even the IIe at all) and is thinking you're trying to fool it by switching ROMs on it. Short of figuring out a way to get a II+ ROM into the computer or patching the program to avoid the check, I don't think there's much hope for getting this particular disk to work. > 3. Tried the reset-esc thing again but this time found a DOS 3.3 disk. > DOS 3.3 APPLE II PLUS OR ROMCAERD aetc.etcetc. was printed... > It come s up withthe ] prompt again. Is this what its supposed to do? Sounds reasonable (though it's been long enough since I used a II+ system master I can't remember whether this is the standard message). The "II PLUS OR ROMCARD" means that it's recognized your system has having Applesoft BASIC in ROM instead of the older Integer BASIC; since you could add a ROM card to the original II that would give it Applesoft (or an Integer card to the II+, for that matter) it can't distinguish between a II+ (which the IIe also appears to be, since it has Applesoft in ROM) and a II with the Applesoft card. > Is there nothing wrong with this thing then? > Could it be something stupid? (wrong thing in wrong slot?) Well, having to hold down Esc to get it to work sounds like a problem to me... but I think I'd try taking out all the boards and seeing if it works without a problem that way, and if it does, putting them back in one at a time to see which one it is that doesn't like to be accelerated. I think there may have been some way to configure the Zip Chip to say which slots should be accelerated and which shouldn't, but I never had one myself, so this is just a hazy memory of secondhand knowledge... > > This is probably another 80-column card, but the old II+ style > > instead of the newer IIe Aux style. > > Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in > there? Probably the former owner either had some program that required a Videx-style card or just preferred the picture quality you get from the Videx (they had models that did 132x40 with a nice solid font -- much nicer than the spotty ugly standard IIe 80 column picture). But for normal use, there doesn't seem to be much point in having both installed. eric From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Wed May 28 08:49:11 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: P-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story In-Reply-To: ; from "Charles P. Hobbs" at May 27, 97 7:59 pm Message-ID: <199705280749.23917@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> [p-code, etc] > It was to be a machine-independent interpreted pseudo-machine code > (hmmm...), much > the same as Java is today. I remember versions of the P-code > intepreter for IBM-PC and Apple II, as well as TI. (There were also > versions for non-consumer machines such as Teraks) There was also a thing called a Sage II (anyone else remember them) that was a single-board 68000-based computer. The standard OS on that was the p-system, although I am told that CP/M-68K was also available at some point. The Sage II was a nice machine to repair - one big flat board instantly visible when you pulled the cover, all chips in sockets, and the schematics in the user manual. They don't make 'em like that any more :-). It was a fairly standard design - 68000 + 512K RAM + floppy controller (Western Digital I think) + 2 serial ports + 8255 parallel port + GPIB + glue logic. Also, the first PERQ microcode implemented something called 'Q-code' which was (I believe) an enhanced p-code - enhanced with things like raster-op (bitblit) instructions. PERQ, of course, stood for 'Pascal Evaluation Real Quick', and the machine was (in part) designed to run p-code - there's a 256-way branch operation to make it easy to do an instruction dispatch on a bytecode. A few months ago, there was a comment doing the rounds between a few serious PERQ-fanatics that the PERQ should be renamed the 'jerq' (Java...) and was essentially sold 17 years too early. -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Tue May 27 02:07:08 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard IIe (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I really should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > About 10 feet of books including (and I don't know why) users manuals and > tape software for an "Epson HX20 Notebook Computer" (didn't get the > computer tho :( looks neat no the cover) Oh yeah! Pity you didn't get the computer. It was a really good machine (for its time). You can see some detailed information about it at: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~alexios/MACHINE-ROOM/Epson_HX-20.html Btw, your Apple is indeed pretty meaty. :-) I'm sorry I can't provide any actual help (despite being an Apple user of old). Oh, the "punch-out" covers at the back weren't punch-out. They had little plastic plugs you could put back if you wanted (though, from my experience, you wouldn't -- in fact you'd add a fan to the thing so it wouldn't overheat). Good luck with it! It's a wonderful machine. Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 08:18:19 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705280502.AAA02551@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On 28-May-97, Eric Fischer wrote: >Probably the former owner either had some program that required >a Videx-style card or just preferred the picture quality you get >from the Videx (they had models that did 132x40 with a nice solid >font -- much nicer than the spotty ugly standard IIe 80 column >picture). I just received an Apple II+ I've been waiting on, and it included a Videx card, though it needs some of the wires replaced before I can install it. The only thing I can find for a model on it is a sticker on it's backside which says 'VTerm'...does this sound right? Also, where was the prefered place to run the new video out through the case? Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 08:20:31 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Current for trade/wanted list In-Reply-To: <199705272308.SAA10045@ins3.netins.net> Message-ID: On 28-May-97, Josh M. Nutzman wrote: >I am intrested in the macs, the 128 & 512. How much? I do have a few dos >3.3 master disks for the II series (the origional apple disks!). >Intrested? I'll try to dig them out! Josh, If he isn't interested in these disks, I would be...as my Apple II+ came without OS disks...just a couple bootable disks with misc. stuff on them. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed May 28 18:22:51 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: <199705282322.RAA24573@calico.litterbox.com> And now, in the "the more things change, the more they stay the same" category, By now most of you have probably heard of the Tiger Learning Computer. It's an apple 2E clone that plugs into your tv and has rom carts for its programs. Let's see. Color, plugs into a tv, can be cartrige driven, less than 200 bucks US. *sigh* I think Commodore died too soon. The 64 was all this and more. Now if I could just find one of the little beasties... (the TLC, not the C=64 - it wouldn't be the same as the one that was MINE.) -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed May 28 18:04:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Seen on web: ads of interest to this list Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204FDF6B4@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Found these ads on the web, they might be of interest to some! ANTIQUE DATA GENERAL LAPTOP FOR SALE Data General MODEL NO. 2217A. I have a Data General One laptop (Model No. 2217A) with full size Expansion Chassis, and several original manuals and programs -- Lotus 1-2-3 Rel. 1A, Microsoft Multiplan, DGBlast (communications), GW-Basic, Programmers Manual, Flight Simulator II, and Ashton-Tate Framework. Laptop has 512 mg memory, dual 720 floppies (max available on machine at time; no internal hard drives in this generation). Expansion chassis has 4 available slots and a bay for a full-size hard drive. Purchased new in 1986. This is clearly an antique, and might be of interest to DG freaks (if there are any) or computer museums; this was one of first clam shell laptops. Interested? Please reply directly to Al J. Daniel, Jr.by e-mail.mailto:adnyc@ix.netcom.com SEAGATE 8 INCH HDD FOR SALE Used SEAGATE 8 inch HDD -- condition unknown. Any interest.E-mail. ice8@eosinc.com From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Wed May 28 18:43:40 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Don't laugh - simple ][e questions Message-ID: <864860085.052074.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Hi chaps... I just picked up an Apple ][e complete with DuoDisk box and orange monitor. Great thing is it also has also the DOS 3.3 manuals and disks and bits and pieces in their original packaging! All i paid for was the petrol (yeah, i'm in England!) to go over and pick it up. Opening up the case reveals that it has a number of cards plugged in including a memory expansion card - does anyone know what size RAM this gives me? how can i check (forgive me for i have not RTFM yet!). It seems to work fine, so my big question is can i use any old 5 1/4" disks in it? is it capable of formatting any old 5 1/4" disks? I ask for two reasons: 1) so i can make back-up copies of the DOS 3.3 disks and 2) so i can save stuff. TIA...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed May 28 23:40:09 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Recent Finds & RE: laser discs... Message-ID: <338D08A9.58B8@goldrush.com> Recent finds... Been adding to the Atari collection, last weekend snagged a 410 tape recorder for 99 cents, noticed a bit of rattling and discovered a plastic part had fallen off the rewind key mechanism (it triggers a reed switch, probably to mute the signal when rewinding.) glue or tape should fix it. Now all I have to do is find those games I have... I think I have a Telengard tape that has atari on it, I wonder how it will compare to the 64 version... And I also have an Automated Simulations game somewhere (the science fiction one like apshai?), it could have an Atari version on it as well... I might have a possible candidate for a power supply for the growing Atari collection (from a thrift store with a table full of various PSs, and mention of boxes more in the back, gotta check there more often!), it is a 9V AC 1.6 amp supply... so, how much difference is there between 1.6 and 1.7 amps? The least rated supply (listed in the Atari FAQ) to run on an 800/1200XL is a 1.7 amp, can the 1.6 cause problems? (I have yet to try this as the plug is the too small and I will have to solder on a more suitable one for it to work.) Also got an 810 drive, did a power test tonite, the disk went through a 'seek' of some sort (still one PS and no disks, so it's best I can do for now) Now I have disk drives that match the 1200XL and 800! Speaking of the 1200XL I mentioned earlier the keyboard was not functional, a fellow user on the comp.sys.atari.8bit newsgroup suggested checking the keyboard connector, and by-jimminy, it was loose! (Now who would open a perfectly good computer...well..ok, who wouldn't open a perfectly good computer. *grin*.) Books,tapes,disks are nowhere to be found for the Atari (at thrift shops/book stores/flea markets), so far (since a month or two ago) not a one spotted, and I thought Commodore books were hard to find. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Monochrome monitors are pretty cheap out there, picked up a basic Zenith green screen for someone for $2.95, saw a few more similarly priced. -=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- My best find of the week: one thrift store had a 128D unit sans keboard (a 128D is a Commodore C128 computer with built-in 1571 disk drive, latest ROMs, and 64k video RAM) for $7.00. I figured it would be a great 'parts source' for my flat C128 (which has only 16k VRAM and old ROMs), I assumed the 128D was DOA, only to discover it is functional, the drive seems ok too! (booted a CP/M system disk and Renegade, two disks with 128 boot sectors I knew of). Now I'm gonna have to scrounge/hack up a 128D keyboard. (dang it all!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- RE: Laser Discs >From: bm_pete@ix.netcom.com (Barry Peterson) >Subject: Re: More p-code (was: Re: Another weekend haul story > On Tue, 27 May 1997 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT), someone said: >>Also, anyone remembers TI's videodisc controller card? I remember some of >>the ads and catalogs saying something to the effect of "The Videodisc=20 >>controller is for industrial use only, it is not for use in the home" >It's PHP 2300 "Video Controller", and listed in 1982 for $699.95! (I >didn't buy one) I got a couple LDs from thrift shops the first ($20) was the great grandaddy Magnavox 8000, still has major tracking problems but it can't interface to anything anyway. The second ($9.95!) is a Poineer 6010? Anyway, it is an 'industrial grade' LD player (had an Armstrong Flooring disc in it). I have some articles for LD interfacing: one for the VIC-20 in a 1982 COMPUTE! and one I think for RS-232 in a 1983 BYTE; but this LD player already has an RS-232 inteface built-in so that point is moot... I am waiting to bail it out of repairs (very minor ones fortunately). Anyone got a Dragon's Lair LD lying around??? Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed May 28 23:03:48 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard IIe > (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I really > should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. > > And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > Nope, piled on top of eachother. I have about 50 disks of a diskmag called "Softdisk" or somehting like that, alone... Les From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed May 28 23:11:41 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705280502.AAA02551@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > Well, having to hold down Esc to get it to work sounds like a > problem to me... but I think I'd try taking out all the boards > and seeing if it works without a problem that way, and if it > does, putting them back in one at a time to see which one it > is that doesn't like to be accelerated. I think there may > have been some way to configure the Zip Chip to say which > slots should be accelerated and which shouldn't, but I never > had one myself, so this is just a hazy memory of secondhand > knowledge... I took out all the boards and the same thing happens...pattern that is. Any more ideas? :( Les From eric at fudge.uchicago.edu Thu May 29 09:27:54 1997 From: eric at fudge.uchicago.edu (Eric Fischer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Don't laugh - simple ][e questions In-Reply-To: <864860085.052074.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199705291427.JAA05434@fudge.uchicago.edu> Nick Challoner said, > I just picked up an Apple ][e complete with DuoDisk box and orange > monitor. ... > Opening up the case reveals that it has a number of cards plugged in > including a memory expansion card - does anyone know what size RAM > this gives me? how can i check (forgive me for i have not RTFM yet!). If it's the standard Apple-issued card for the Aux slot, there are two varieties: a 2k board that adds only enough memory to make 80-column video work and a (more common) 64k board, which gives your Apple a total of 128k. You should be able to tell which of these you have by looking at the chips on it -- the 64k model will have eight 4164 chips or two of whatever the later 256kbit chip's model number was (41256?). Other manufacturers offered Aux-slot boards with more than 64k. If the memory expansion card is not an Aux-slot one, but fits in one of the standard seven slots instead, these were normally populated with 256k but could be expanded up to 1mb. > It seems to work fine, so my big question is can i use any old 5 1/4" > disks in it? is it capable of formatting any old 5 1/4" disks? I ask > for two reasons: 1) so i can make back-up copies of the DOS 3.3 disks > and 2) so i can save stuff. The Apple format was single sided, single density, so almost any disk should work. The DOS 3.3 system master disk should have a program called COPYA which will make backup copies of disks. eric From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu May 29 12:36:35 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: FS on Ebay: HP 86, Apple IIe, IIc Message-ID: <338DBEA3.52D6@oboe.calpoly.edu> I'm cleaning out my closet due to financial need. (and lack of time and space). I put 3 computers on the auction yesterday: ? HP 86 Computer, Drives, Modules ? http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=otr9161 ? Apple IIe Computer, Duo Drive, 64K ? http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=cjt6509 ? Apple IIC Computer ? http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=znb774144 Much more to come. I'm seriously cleaning house over the next few weeks. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 29 17:18:56 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050120A7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Still no joy on the Apple II+ boot problem. The machine appears to definitely have 48K RAM; at least the NEC chips have "416" on them. Any way I can tell in BASIC? I have 3 disk controllers and 3 drives. The disk controllers have 2 different ROM versions; one is half copyrighted 1979 and half 1981, while the other is all 1981. The card model is 650-X104. There's another ID number, one is 820-0006-02 and the other card is 820-0006-D. Help!!!! Kai > ---------- > From: Eric Fischer[SMTP:eric@fudge.uchicago.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 1997 10:02 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: HELP with Apple II+ booting! > > kaikal@MICROSOFT.com says, > > > My Apple II+ will boot a diskette called the "Zardax Utilities" but > it > > won't boot anything else. > ... > > When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the > > screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage > characters > > are added. > > My best guess is that maybe you have a 13-sector (DOS 3.2) disk > controller and one 13-sector disk (the one that works), and the > rest of your disks are 16-sector so the 13-sector controller > doesn't know what to do with them. Unfortunately I can't remember > where to peek to find out the DOS or controller version number, > so I don't know how you could verify this. > > The other alternative is that if your Apple II+ has less than 48k > of memory, the other disks may be expecting a 48k system and loading > DOS into a part of memory that doesn't exist on your computer. The > Zardax Utilities disk may be one with a relocatable DOS image on it > (a "master" disk) created with "MASTER CREATE" and the rest are just > plain fixed-address disks. This would certainly explain why random > junk was getting loaded into video memory instead of where it belongs. > > eric > From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Thu May 29 14:15:45 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. Message-ID: I'm fairly new to the collecting scene and I'm looking for a monitor I can use with some of my systems. I'm mainly interested in the 8bit home computers, spectrum, c64, atari, dragon, bbc etc I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with all of the above. I know there seems to have been a few different methods used in producing the video signals and, from reading newsgroups, I get the impression that it is sometimes possible to select video outputs/monitor inputs such that, even if the monitor is not directly compatible, a reasonable result can be obtained. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu May 29 18:32:12 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20501ABBF@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Commodore 1084 is a versatile, inexpensive monitor on the used market. It has composite, Y/C, analog and digital RGB inputs with front-panel switching, as well as built-in audio (the 1084S is stereo). The Commodore 1702 is an older model that should be even cheaper. It has composite and Y/C connections switchable only on the rear panel, and monaural built-in audio. I'm sure both of the above were available in PAL versions, probably with the same features. Many older systems can be wired to use Y/C connections (e.g. Atari 8bit, C64) by using a custom cable on the video DIN connector instead of the Ch3/4 TV output. Y/C connections (also known as S-video) will yield a _much_ higher quality picture. The Commodore monitors use dual RCA connectors instead of the mini-DIN4 connector more commonly associated with S-video, but electrically it's the same. If you had a newer system with S-video output (e.g. PlayStation/Saturn) it would be simple to make a mini-DIN4-to-dual-RCA adapter cable. I use a Commodore 1084S for my Amiga, Atari ST and IBM CGA/EGA applications; a (ultra cool) Samsung GXTV (http://sosimple.com/gxtv.htm) for various systems, including those that have only Ch3/4 output (e.g. Mattel Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair ZX) and for watching TV in the computer room :), and a Sony PVM-2030 broadcast stacking monitor for the modern video game systems. I'd like to find a Sony GVM-1311Q, which is a 13" monitor that accepts composite, Y/C, digital and analog RGB, the latter at up to 1024x768. That covers just about everything except Hercules Mono. Kai > ---------- > From: Pete Robinson[SMTP:Pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 1997 12:15 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: monitors for use with old computers. > > I'm fairly new to the collecting scene and I'm looking for a monitor I > can use with some of my systems. I'm mainly interested in the 8bit > home > computers, spectrum, c64, atari, dragon, bbc etc > > I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be > used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with > all > of the above. > > I know there seems to have been a few different methods used in > producing the video signals and, from reading newsgroups, I get the > impression that it is sometimes possible to select video > outputs/monitor > inputs such that, even if the monitor is not directly compatible, a > reasonable result can be obtained. > > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. > -- > Pete Robinson > pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk > http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web > utilities. > From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu May 29 20:19:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050120A7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> from "Kai Kaltenbach" at May 29, 97 03:18:56 pm Message-ID: <9705300019.AA24753@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1101 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970529/2dd5034f/attachment-0001.ksh From BigLouS at aol.com Thu May 29 22:43:01 1997 From: BigLouS at aol.com (BigLouS@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! Message-ID: <970529234259_576696852@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-29 21:36:06 EDT, shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) writes: > The chips aren't hard to find or replace, it's just that I've seen > neophytes smoke a half-dozen drives in a matter of minutes while > swapping cables around. (Yes, i've smoked a couple myself.) I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one frying Disk II's although I only seem to fry the 74LS125's on the drive. Lou From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 08:57:46 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. In-Reply-To: ; from "Pete Robinson" at May 29, 97 8:15 pm Message-ID: <199705300757.27749@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > I'm fairly new to the collecting scene and I'm looking for a monitor I > can use with some of my systems. I'm mainly interested in the 8bit home > computers, spectrum, c64, atari, dragon, bbc etc > > I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be > used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with all > of the above. Right. The most important thing to match up when selecting a monitor is the horizontal scan rate - since (in 99% of cases) the EHT (and other voltages) are produced by the horizontal output stage, changing this scan rate is almost always non-trivial. The vertical scan rate is much easier to fiddle with, since nothing else is produced by the vertical deflection system. Fortunately, almost all home computers (and all the ones you mentioned) use TV-like scan rates. In the UK, they're 15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical, while in the States they're 15750Hz horizontal (I think), 60Hz vertical. Those 2 horizontal scan rates are close enough that most monitors for one can be tweaked to work at the other. Now, as to the video signal itself. It will typically be one of a small number of possibilities : 1) Digital RGB colour (BBC, for example). This has 1 TTL level signal for each of R,G,B, and hence you're limited to 8 colours. The Syncs are separate TTL level signals, either separate (HSync and VSync) or combined (Composite Sync). Amstrad used a varient of this system where each of the R,G,B signals could be in one of 3 states (high, low, floating) giving 27 colours. 2) Analogue RGB colour. This has separate analogue signals for each of R,G,B, giving essentially unlimited colours, but is otherwise as in (1). Sometimes the Sync signals are combined with the green video signal (sync-on-green). 3) Monochrome with separate syncs (very rare!). This system has a single signal (either analogue or digital) that carries the intensity information, together with 1 or 2 sync signals as above. I can't think of a home computer that used this system 4) Composite monochrome. This combines the syncs and intensity information into a single signal that is almost identical to a TV video signal (i.e. what you'd find in a TV after the video detector, or what you'd get from the video output socket on a VCR). These signals are almost always compatable with the TV standards of the appropriate country. 5) Composite PAL or NTSC. PAL and NTSC are the systems used in the UK or the States for colour television. These signals are in general compatable with the TV standards of those countries, and combine all colour, intensity and sync information into a single signal. 6) 'Y&C' (Commodore, in general). The colour TV signal consists of 2 parts - the 'Y' (or luminance) signal which caries the intenstity information and the 'C' (or chrominance) signal which caries the colour information. Some CBM machines have separate outputs for the 2 signals, which gives slightly better quality than combining them and them separating them again in the monitor. 7) VHF/UHF TV signals. These are essentially very low power TV transimissions, on Channel 3/4 (VHF) in the States, and Channel 36 (UHF) in the UK. You link them to the aerial input of at TV set, which then converts them to Composite PAL/NTSC. Now, as to what converts to what easily : Composite PAL/NTSC and Composite monochrome are compatible in both directions with no problems. The TV standards were designed that way. VHF/YHF TV can be converted to composite video using a TV tuner/IF strip, either as part of a TV, or extracted from a dead VCR. There are single-chip solutions to convert composite PAL or NTSC (and even some chips that do both) to analogue RGB. Be warned that _building_ a circuit using one of these chips is often hard, since there are a number of critical adjustments to get right. There are also single chips that go the other way Digital RGB outputs will often drive analogue RGB inputs, sometimes a resistor network is needed. The other way needs a few high-speed comparator chips (although _sometimes_ a direct connection works!) There are chips that will separate the syncs from a composite signal, and produce video + syncs. Combining syncs and video to make a composite signal is generally a simple circuit as well. > > I know there seems to have been a few different methods used in > producing the video signals and, from reading newsgroups, I get the > impression that it is sometimes possible to select video outputs/monitor > inputs such that, even if the monitor is not directly compatible, a > reasonable result can be obtained. Well, there have been monitors (Philips, Barco, a few others) that will accept : Composite PAL (and hence mono). A few do NTSC as well Digital RGB Analogue RGB Take one of those, add a TV tuner, and you can handle just about all the standards. Some _good_ portable TV's have a SCART socket with RGB inputs. The bandwidth there is often high enough to enable the set to be used as a monitor for (at least) 80 column text. A SCART socket will also have a composite PAL input on it. And of course a TV will accept UHF or VHF signals as appropriate. Apart from special monitors, I make do with 3 things : 1) A portable (9") NEC monochrome monitor. Composite inputs 2) A digital RGB monitor (again NEC, although I'd prefer a Microvitec) 3) An analogue RGB monitor (Barco, big, heave, expensive!) > > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. > -- > Pete Robinson > pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk > http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. > -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From pcoad at crl.com Fri May 30 03:54:44 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Name those cards game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I came across some Apple II boards recently. Some I can make and educated guess about, but others are a bit of a mystery: APPLI-CARD - Personal Computer Products, Inc. This one has a Z80B, 8 chips (Mistsubishi?) labeled 5K4164ANP-15. This is a long card which has either a block of pins for 25 jumpers or ribbon connectors. There is also an empty socket next to an EPROM labeled "APPLI-CARD BOOTSTRAP V9.0 (C) PCPI 1982". The board is labeled as being copyright 1982. APL BOARD UNIT G479501000-0 it has an EPROM labeled "APL", an odd connector (15 pins) which looks like it could be for keyboard. The board is labeled "EPSON". My guess is that this is a board which either transformed an Apple II keyboard into an APL keyboard or allowed an APL keyboard to be used. LEGO 9767. This board features a 6522 and a 20 wire ribbon cable. The board is labeled "FOR EDUCATIONAL USF" (the F is not a typo). This one has 3 chips, 2 capacitors, 1 resistor, and a transistor. I'm guessing that this is for controlling Lego motors and switches. APPLE IIGS MEMORY EXPANSION. (Even I can figure this one out!) It features 8 MB81256-12s, 8 M5M4256APs, 8 TMS4256-12NLs, and 8 TMM41256AP-12s. The copyright is 1986 but several of the chips have dates of 89. The last one is an IBM type card which was with the Apple cards. It has 2 9 pin female connectors and an RCA type jack. The board has the words "DIAMOND COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC" and "TRACKSTAR 128 TM" silk screened on the board. There are two EPROMs, a 6502, 65SC02, 2 EPROMs, 8 socketed AMPAL16L8LPCs (memory?). There is another socketed IC which is labeled DISK. I'm guessing that this is some sort of Apple II on an ISA card. Can anyone identify these cards? Thanks, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 30 06:59:00 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: > > >...and a BIZARRE > >piece of IBM equipment: an external 5-1/4" floppy drive, model 4869. > > Actually, if one worked in an IBM shop, they were quite commonplace... > especially when the PS/2's came out. The PS/2's had *no* way to hook an > internal 5.25" floppy (due to size of case... and IBM's wanting to create a > new standard...) so you had to go external if you wanted/needed to share > data with other machines with 5.25" drives. Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. > The size of the drive is mainly because of the PS & case (the case is > *very* well RFI shielded)... the drive itself is a standard 1/2 height 360K > 40TKDSDD 48TPI drive, with a standard 34-pin edge connector. OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin connector? I want to connect this drive to my A1060 SideCar on my Amiga 1000. I removed the internal floppy drive in the SideCar in order to install a 5.25" hard drive in its bay. If I build an extension cable, I should be able to get this IBM drive hooked up instead, so that I'll actually have an A: drive on the machine. :) Then I'll have a machine I can run 22DISK on so I can avoid a lot of the foolishness with serial cables, etc. > I have one > sitting on my desk at home, modified to use a standard cable (read: hole > cut with dremel tool in top of case to fit cable) so I can use it with > either my PC or with my Tandy CoCo3. *Very* nice drive. Trying to find a > few more, so I can floppyize my CoCo2 and CoCo1. Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these machines. > If you (or anyone) needs more info on this drive, lemme know. But I can > tell you, that just taking it apart is *fun*, if you have 3-4 hours to get > it apart and back together. I've had mine disassembled 3-4 times now, to > figure where to cut holes & stuff for my cable mods. Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my Mac 512K. > Enjoy! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should > zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From groberts at mitre.org Fri May 30 07:16:25 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: PS/2 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530081625.00801e30@mail90> At 07:59 AM 5/30/97 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> especially when the PS/2's came out. The PS/2's had *no* way to hook an >> internal 5.25" floppy > >Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) remember that at the time the PS/2 came out IBM was trying to re-assert their lead in the industry (they largely failed). they decided to move to a completely new architecture which they hoped would set a new standard (e.g. 3.5" floppy; Microchannel; VGA graphics). the microchannel failed because they tried to license the technology, but people found ways to breathe life into the old ISA bus instead. the small floppy and VGA were obviously successes, but IBM underestimated the need for backward compatibility to the larger floppies (obvious in hindsight). - glenn From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 30 07:28:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Name those cards game In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530082842.009e3d30@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Paul E Coad said: > >I came across some Apple II boards recently. Some I can make and >educated guess about, but others are a bit of a mystery: [snip] >APL BOARD UNIT G479501000-0 it has an EPROM labeled "APL", an odd >connector (15 pins) which looks like it could be for keyboard. The >board is labeled "EPSON". My guess is that this is a board which >either transformed an Apple II keyboard into an APL keyboard or >allowed an APL keyboard to be used. Everyone here who likes APL, please raise your hand! |||| |||| |||| / Me!!!!! ;-) ||||/ \ / || >LEGO 9767. This board features a 6522 and a 20 wire ribbon cable. >The board is labeled "FOR EDUCATIONAL USF" (the F is not a typo). >This one has 3 chips, 2 capacitors, 1 resistor, and a transistor. >I'm guessing that this is for controlling Lego motors and switches. cool! >The last one is an IBM type card which was with the Apple cards. It >has 2 9 pin female connectors and an RCA type jack. The board has the >words "DIAMOND COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC" and "TRACKSTAR 128 TM" silk >screened on the board. There are two EPROMs, a 6502, 65SC02, 2 EPROMs, >8 socketed AMPAL16L8LPCs (memory?). There is another socketed IC >which is labeled DISK. I'm guessing that this is some sort of Apple II >on an ISA card. Yes, sir! That's the card. If you'd like more info, I *think* these are detailed in my 1989 Tandy Computer Catalog I have at home... they used to market these things to try to get a little more TRS- market share. I honestly can't say how good they were, and (IIRC... it's been a while) you do have to have an apple disk drive as the drives are not compatible with the IBM standard, but other than that, it *was* an interesting upgrade path for all you ol' Apple ]['ers out there. Sorry, I worked on them in high school... I don't hold that fascination with them that many of you here do... Non-linear video memory just seemed "weird" to me for some reason. It was a good system, but just not my cup of tea. Anywho, If you're interested in that article, let me know and I'll try to dig it up over the weekend. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 30 07:27:19 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: SoftCard IIe (was: Re: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Alexios Chouchoulas wrote: > On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > About 5 feet of disks (apple II) of which about 25 or so were CP/M (?) > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard > IIe (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I > really should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. I notice you mention that it is a "SoftCard IIe". Does the Apple //e require a special version of the SoftCard? The reason I ask is that I had an Apple ][+ with a Z80 card (of undetermined origin). My ][+ started dying (it was getting "zaps" in the video quite frequently) so I upgraded to a //e as soon as I found one in a thrift store. I moved everything across to the //e (smoking a Disk ][ in the process :'() and the Z80 card refuses to work in the //e. I even picked up a second Z80 card, and it won't work in the //e, either. > Btw, your Apple is indeed pretty meaty. :-) I'm sorry I can't provide any > actual help (despite being an Apple user of old). Oh, the "punch-out" covers > at the back weren't punch-out. They had little plastic plugs you could put > back if you wanted (though, from my experience, you wouldn't -- in fact > you'd add a fan to the thing so it wouldn't overheat). I preferred the simple grooves in the back for cables on my ][+ clone. I never had to disconnect anything to remove it. I wouldn't have smoked the Disk ][ if the //e hadn't required pulling the cable from the controller for installation. :/ Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 13:40:32 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at May 30, 97 7:59 am Message-ID: <199705301240.9935@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer > so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used > to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. No, AFAIK the PS/2 cases had (special!) 3.5" bays only. > > > The size of the drive is mainly because of the PS & case (the case is > > *very* well RFI shielded)... the drive itself is a standard 1/2 height 360K > > 40TKDSDD 48TPI drive, with a standard 34-pin edge connector. > > OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of > the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without > modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin > connector? If it's the same as the XT external floppy connector (and I think it is!), the 34 wires of the standard floppy connector are connected to the 'bottom' (higher numbered) pins on the 37 pin D plug. Pins 1,2,20 are no connection, pin 3 is wire 2, pin 4 is wire 4, pin 5 is wire 6, etc. Pins 21-37 are all grounded. It's a standard DC37 connector, available from any good electronics parts place, I think. You can get solder, PCB mount or IDC versions. [...] > Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a > CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these > machines. You need a disk interface cartridge. It fits into the ROMpack slot, and it contains a ROM containing the disk extenstions to BASIC and the disk controller (WD1773 in later models, WD1793? in earlier ones). The disk drive plugs into a 34 pin connector on the end of the cartridge Late version disk interfaces (FD500 and later) work in all CoCo's. Early interfaces need a 12V line (I forget if it's +ve or -ve) that's only available on the CoCo1. Of course there's nothing to stop you hacking it. > Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed > screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use > a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my > Mac 512K. Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such things... > Doug Spence -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri May 30 07:41:27 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? Message-ID: Hi, The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the machine is powered up. I think this thing becomes even louder than our 1950s-era Westinghouse refrigerator. (OK, perhaps an exaggeration, but the sound seems to carry farther.) There is nothing obviously functionally wrong with the computer - it boots up fine, there's no wavering or glitching in the display, nothing to say that something might be wrong. Except the buzzing. It makes me nervous. Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which part is about to go? It looks like the power supply should be easy to repair, but I don't know what I'm doing with these things. I know it's been stated here that power supplies should be checked before powering anything up, but I don't really know how to do that, and sometimes I'm just too impatient to see my new toys running. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From gram at cnct.com Fri May 30 07:51:13 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Name those cards game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > The last one is an IBM type card which was with the Apple cards. It > has 2 9 pin female connectors and an RCA type jack. The board has the > words "DIAMOND COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC" and "TRACKSTAR 128 TM" silk > screened on the board. There are two EPROMs, a 6502, 65SC02, 2 EPROMs, > 8 socketed AMPAL16L8LPCs (memory?). There is another socketed IC > which is labeled DISK. I'm guessing that this is some sort of Apple II > on an ISA card. The Trackstar was basically a complete Apple II on a card that went into a PC compatible. Well, it didn't have much expansion, so you you couldn't add a Z-80 SoftCard, but that wasn't the market that it was aimed at anyway. It required an actual Apple disk drive, since PC drives require a format that respects the existence of the sector detect hole. It was mainly aimed at the educational market, since many schools had a lot of old Apple hardware and software. To the best of my recollection, it was at least as Apple II compatible as a clone could be -- I don't remember _any_ programs that couldn't be made to run, and a lot of games looked mighty cool on a Tandy 1000 display. (While it would go into any generic PC compatible, Tandy made a specific effort to market and regain market share lost with their stupid decision to abandon the old Z-80 product line). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 30 08:05:44 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970527083740.009a3220@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530090544.009266e0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Doug Spence said: >Does the PS/2 not have any 5.25" drive bays? Weird. :) I'm not an IBMer >so I don't know these things, though I *think* one of the machines I used >to do CAD work on was a PS/2 of some flavour. Every PS/2 that I've ever seen (note: this does not mean All PS/2's... just the ones I've seen) didn't have a 5.25" port at all... not even their tower "servers". I suspect it was IBM (trying to) setting a new standard... again. >OK, that makes it useful. Would you happen to know what the pinout is of >the 37-pin connector, so that I can try to make use of the drive without >modification? Is it even possible to buy a matching female 37-pin >connector? IIRC, it's just straight thru with the last/first 3 pins unused... but I'd have to look at the cable or ring some pins to be sure (and yes, I'm a packrat...). I also believe that you can still get 37-pin D-sub connectors thru the Mouser Electronics catalog. Good people to work with... I had 3 distinct problems with my first order (totalling $40USD) and they took care of all of them at their expense (shipped some closeout SMD resistors *overnight* because they forgot them in the package... their expense... that's their policy, despite my not being in a rush for them!) Try http://www.mouser.com . >Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a >CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these >machines. All CoCo controllers take Shugart standard drives (now called IBM standard drives... IBM's taking over again!) altho RSDOS limits you to 35 tracks, SSDD, 156K disks (the original Shugart drives) without patches... which (of course) I have. RSDOS can handle a max of 2 DSDD 80 track drives with patches (more accurately... they look like 4 SSDD 80 track drives, with :2 the backside of :0 and :3 the backside of :1) but 1.44Meg storage thru RSDOS is really good! OS-9 can handle 3 DSDD 80trk drives! >> If you (or anyone) needs more info on this drive, lemme know. But I can >> tell you, that just taking it apart is *fun*, if you have 3-4 hours to get >> it apart and back together. I've had mine disassembled 3-4 times now, to >> figure where to cut holes & stuff for my cable mods. > >Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed >screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use >a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my >Mac 512K. There are three ways to get into the case, only one of which I recommend. The first method involves a chainsaw and a 12lb (5.5kg) sledgehammer... If you have to ask, you don't want to know. ;^> The second method would require an appropriately sized Torx screwdriver and a Dremel tool with drill press attachment. You would need to drill a small hole in the end of the Torx driver to accommodate the post in the screw. While this method is the safest to the drive, it's also the most work. Method 3 (which is the one I used) requires a pointed instrument (like a leather awl) and a regular (flat-head or slotted) screwdriver that just fit's into 2 of the points of the Torx screw (the screwdriver tip of my tiny Swiss Army knife worked perfectly). Use the awl to bend the post over as much as you can, and this *should* (no guarantees, YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda...) get you enough room to get enough of the slotted screwdriver into 2 of the star points and extract the screw. As the case is built like a Sherman Tank, once the screws are removed, deep six them. I've been running mine for 3 years without the special screws with no ill effects. Anyway, I hope this helps, and enjoy the drive! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From zmerch at northernway.net Fri May 30 08:12:42 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <199705301240.9935@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970530091242.009db230@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, A.R. Duell said: >> Interesting. How are the drives interfaced to the CoCos? I've got a >> CoCo1, CoCo2, and CoCo3, but I've never found a disk drive for these >> machines. >You need a disk interface cartridge. It fits into the ROMpack slot, and >it contains a ROM containing the disk extenstions to BASIC and the disk >controller (WD1773 in later models, WD1793? in earlier ones). The disk >drive plugs into a 34 pin connector on the end of the cartridge > >Late version disk interfaces (FD500 and later) work in all CoCo's. Early >interfaces need a 12V line (I forget if it's +ve or -ve) that's only >available on the CoCo1. Of course there's nothing to stop you hacking it. Uhhhh, yea, what he said. I forgot to mention the disk interface cartridge in my last post... I have a few Disto mini-controllers (MC-1's) sans case if you're interested... I think I have a PD dos available as well, as the DOS chip (on ROM) is no longer available from RS. >> Heh. I couldn't even get mine apart, because of the two six-pointed >> screws on the bottom. The screws have a lump in the middle so I can't use >> a flat-blade screwdriver as I did when I had a similar problem opening my >> Mac 512K. >Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool >shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such >things... Boy... y'all got everything over there, don't you? I've *never* seen a T-proof Torx screwdriver on this side of the pond... therefore I just tampered the tamperproofs to get in. HTH, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch@northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice. From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 14:37:34 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970530091242.009db230@mail.northernway.net>; from "Roger Merchberger" at May 30, 97 9:12 am Message-ID: <199705301337.15278@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > >Tamperproof TORX screws. Drivers for them are available from good tool > >shops in the UK - I have a reasonably complete set to deal with such > >things... > > Boy... y'all got everything over there, don't you? I've *never* seen a > T-proof Torx screwdriver on this side of the pond... therefore I just > tampered the tamperproofs to get in. I did say _good_ tool shops :-) There's perhaps one in a major city. The local hardware stores wouldn't have them. I would think that Jensen Tools (I think that's the spelling) would have them in the States. Actually, a lot of the tools we get over here are US in origin. Xcellite, Moody, etc. I can't remember who made the tamperproof Torx drivers I have - maybe CK (German), maybe one of the US manufacturers. I've found a good tool kit (I have flat blade, phillips, pozidriv, Torx, Torq, tri-wing, tamperproof torx, Allen hex, Tamperproof Allen hex, JIS, etc screwdrivers) to be almost essential for computer preservation > > HTH, > "Merch" -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk Fri May 30 14:44:49 1997 From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (A.R. Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: Buzzing PS? In-Reply-To: ; from "Doug Spence" at May 30, 97 8:41 am Message-ID: <199705301344.15723@club.eng.cam.ac.uk> > > > Hi, > > The Apple /// I picked up last weekend has one annoying flaw, and that is > a *very* loud power supply, that seems to get louder the longer the > machine is powered up. > > I think this thing becomes even louder than our 1950s-era Westinghouse > refrigerator. (OK, perhaps an exaggeration, but the sound seems to > carry farther.) > > There is nothing obviously functionally wrong with the computer - it boots > up fine, there's no wavering or glitching in the display, nothing to say > that something might be wrong. > > Except the buzzing. > > It makes me nervous. > > Is this noise normal, or is it a sign that something is about to go > kablooie? And if something's wrong, is there any way of knowing which > part is about to go? No it's not normal. The Apple uses a switching type supply, and there shouldn't be any 60Hz waveforms anywhere after the mains rectifier/smoothing cap. If it's buzzing there is a problem It _may_ be nothing more than the mains filter coil (if it has one), or it may be a dried up smoothing capacitor (the 2 big ones rated at about 300V) that needs replacing. You could try those first. > > It looks like the power supply should be easy to repair, but I don't know > what I'm doing with these things. I know it's been stated here that power > supplies should be checked before powering anything up, but I don't really > know how to do that, and sometimes I'm just too impatient to see my new > toys running. You'll regret it. It takes _1_ dry joint to break during shipping for all the chips in your new toy to be killed at switch-on. I've almost seen it happen (a colour monitor blew up after being turned upside-down since a dry joint opened and removed the regulation from the PSU - guess who's got that one to sort out!). Please check the PSU before going any further. Apple PSUs are easy to check. The 6 way cable unplugs from the main board, and the wiring is given in the Apple ][ reference manual. Just connect a voltmeter between the +5V output and the ground wire (red and black?) and power up. I don't think you need a dummy load. If you don't get 5V when you power up, you need to sort out that PSU. > Doug Spence -- -tony ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 14:07:46 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. In-Reply-To: <199705300757.27749@tw600.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: cheers for all the info - it's given me a lot to go on. -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - faqs, emulators, links, web utilities. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 22:51:27 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:41 2005 Subject: monitors for use with old computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30-May-97, Pete Robinson wrote: >I'd like to know if there is a particular type of monitor that can be >used on the above machines. I'd like to buy, say one, I can use with all >of the above. Pete, One monitor that I have found to be a good general purpose monitor is the Amiga 1080 (and I believe the 1084 is the same way). It is switch selectable between positive and negative RGB, composite, and seperate video signals, and has the RCA jacks on the back for composite and seperate signals, including the audio-in, as well as a 9pin RGB port. I've used my 1080 for my Apple II+ (composite), C-128 (RGB), and as a monitor for a VCR, using the VCR as a TV tuner. There are both NTSC and PAL compatible versions of these monitors. Hope this helps. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed May 28 22:57:04 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2050120A7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On 30-May-97, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: >I have 3 disk controllers and 3 drives. The disk controllers have 2 >different ROM versions; one is half copyrighted 1979 and half 1981, >while the other is all 1981. The card model is 650-X104. There's >another ID number, one is 820-0006-02 and the other card is 820-0006-D. Kai, The ammendum that was included with the 'Disk II Installation Manual' with my Apple II+ lists the 16 sector controller as #650-4105. The card in my II+ is a #650-4104. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Sent from an Amiga 3000..the computer for the creative mind! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of classic home computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, Mega-ST/2 and XE System, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4 and VIC-20, IBM 5155, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osborne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Sinclair ZX-81, TI-99/4A, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer-3 and Model 4, plus Atari Superpong and 2600VCS game consoles. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri May 30 16:35:11 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20504C12A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> | Yes, sir! That's the card. If you'd like more info, I *think* these are | detailed in my 1989 Tandy Computer Catalog I have at home... Yep! Page 25, "Now you can run Apple IIc educational and game software on your Tandy 1000...with the TRACKSTAR 128 adapter. Imagine having the best of both worlds in one computer...Supports the use of Apple joysticks or game port devices such as Muppet Learning Keys. [???]" $399.95 Kai From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri May 30 17:11:33 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Kaypro Message-ID: <199705302211.SAA30494@unix.aardvarkol.com> Here's an Email I recieved today, just in case any of you are interested. >To: JeffH >From: dasarno@aol.com >Date: 28 May 97 21:20:02 -0500 >Subject: Kaypro > > >Jeff - >I came across your name by reference the keyword Kaypro. I have a >mint condition Kaypro 10, all manuals, back-up disks. It looks like >it just came out of the box and works great. But, have absolutely no >use for it. Do you have any ideas? Is there an aftermarket or should >I donate it to some school computer lab. Thanks > >Don S. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore C-128D, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk Fri May 30 10:37:24 1997 From: alexios at vennea.demon.co.uk (Alexios Chouchoulas) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: SoftCard IIe (was: Re: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > > CP/M disks? Ooh, wish I had those for my IIe... I have a Microsoft SoftCard > > IIe (brilliant product, btw) but the CP/M boot disks for it are gone. I > > really should talk to Don Maslin, I suppose. > > I notice you mention that it is a "SoftCard IIe". Does the Apple //e > require a special version of the SoftCard? Well, I remember there was a Microsoft SoftCard II. The one I have is clearly labelled Microsoft SoftCard IIe (big, old-type Microsoft logo). I don't know if there are actual differences. I've never seen the SoftCard II. > I moved everything across to the //e (smoking a Disk ][ in the process > :'() and the Z80 card refuses to work in the //e. There are a lot of hardware incompatibilities between the two machines, I think. They should be well documented, though. > I preferred the simple grooves in the back for cables on my ][+ clone. I > never had to disconnect anything to remove it. Yes, those were such a good idea. When I first saw them, I thought "this is STRANGE". But it makes sense. --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronouncable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc@dcs.ed.ac.uk From kevan at motiv.co.uk Sat May 31 02:34:30 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Tandy TRS-80 Model 4's for UK collectors... Message-ID: <199705310734.IAA02903@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Hi, I recieved the following email through my web site. I really don't have the room for these so if anybody is interested then feel free to contact him. (He does know I have forwarded this email.) Kevan ------- Forwarded Message From pcoad at crl.com Sat May 31 02:52:18 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Trackstar 128 (RE: Name those cards game) In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20504C12A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > | Yes, sir! That's the card. If you'd like more info, I *think* > these are > | detailed in my 1989 Tandy Computer Catalog I have at home... > > Yep! Page 25, > > "Now you can run Apple IIc educational and game software on your Tandy > 1000...with the TRACKSTAR 128 adapter. Imagine having the best of both > worlds in one computer...Supports the use of Apple joysticks or game > port devices such as Muppet Learning Keys. [???]" > $399.95 > I found it in my copy of the 1989 Radio Shack Catalog. I would never have thought to look for it there! Thanks to all who gave information on the board. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 04:56:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P In-Reply-To: <3388eb8e.5555773@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Barry Peterson wrote: > Greetings, I'm hoping for a little advice here: > > While scanning an auction web page > (http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hok055925) > I found an item I have in the garage. which sold there for $76.50. > This brings two questions to my mind: > > 1: Is it worth $76.50? Probably not. > 2: Would be unethical to email the non-winning bidders with an offer > to sell my computer to them? Not at all. I'm sure they would appreciate it. Speaking of TRS-80 Model 4's, I just got back from Mexico (Cancun) and while there I happened upon a computer store. It was a very modern store, with all the standard clone PC stuff, but they also had sitting on the shelf a TRS-80 Model 40 with 64K and two 5.25" floppies. I would have loved to have taken it back with me but I'm sure the tariffs I would've been hit with wouldn't have been worth it. Plus it would've been a bitch to haul around with me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 05:35:45 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: <199705271527.KAA00929@fudge.uchicago.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Eric Fischer wrote: > > 2: has a Grappler + Parallel Printer INterface > > That's strange... printers were traditionally in slot 1. But not required to be in slot 1. Any card could be in any slot. It makes no difference to the computer. Software applications are a different story. > > 7: (This one stumps me) Its a pretty long board and attaches by way of a > > wire to a panel on the back that says "VIDEX" The panel has a toggle > > switch and two RCA ports that say "M" and "A" Is this another Video > > board? I would suggest taking this card out as it hardly seems like it belongs in the system and may be the cause of the malfunction. The only reason I can think that this card is in slot 7 is because slot 7 had a special connection to a video signal (something like that, I forget the specifics) and maybe this was an enhanced graphics card of some sort. But slot 7 is also the first slot the ROM looks in for a bootable device, and this card may be preventing the system from finding the disk controller in slot 6 and booting off the disk drive. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 05:41:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: HELP with Apple II+ booting! In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB204F7888A@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > When I put in a different bootable diskette, I get "APPLE II" on the > screen, and then after a moment's pause, a bunch of garbage characters > are added. This happens with various bootable diskettes, including some > brand-new shrinkwrapped Atarisoft games (whose docs say they are > bootable). Three possible problems: a) the disks got scrambled by a magnetic field or are just old b) your disk drive speed is out of whack and needs to be adjusted. You need to find a copy of Copy ][ Plus (versions 3.0 and higher?) which includes a disk speed alignment program. You need to open up the disk ][ and use a small screwdriver to tweak the pot controlling the drive speed per the on-screen display of Copy ][ Plus. c) the disks you are trying to boot require an amount of memory that your ][+ does not have. Older ][+ systems only came with 16K, upgradable to 48K and 64K with a "language card". The disks you are trying to boot may require 48K, and you may only have 16K. > With the garbage on the screen, if I hit Shift/Break or Ctrl/Break or > whatever, I can get to the ] BASIC prompt. Pressing RESET alone on the ][+ will suffice to break into the basic prompt. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 05:56:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > Just for "fun" I did this and some interesting things happened... > 1. The garbage disappeared and "Apple //e" was printed at the top and the > drive 1 light came on. I put in the first disk I grabbed and it came up > with the message "Unable to Identify Language in MotherBoard E0 ROM. > PLease replace that ROM and Reboot." What's this mean? I have never, ever heard of this message, so it is most likely application specific. What disk was it that you put in? The E0 ROM held part of AppleSoft BASIC. I don't know a whole lot about the ZipChip, but I am pretty sure it didn't include a ROM change. I think we need to know what the software was to solce this mystery. > 2. Hit escape again and got a ] prompt which someone said was a Basic > prompt. Mad a stupid basic proggy, ran it, it worked. It is, indeed, the AppleSoft BASIC prompt. > 3. Tried the reset-esc thing again but this time found a DOS 3.3 disk. > DOS 3.3 APPLE II PLUS OR ROMCAERD aetc.etcetc. was printed... > It come s up withthe ] prompt again. Is this what its supposed to do? Yes, it's just a simple boot disk for DOS 3.3. > Is there nothing wrong with this thing then? > Could it be something stupid? (wrong thing in wrong slot?) Sounds like the system is working (mostly) fine. I think the software you are booting up is throwing you a curve ball. > Should I take one of the video cards out? Are they supposed to BOTH be in > there? Probably not. Try taking out the video card in slot 7. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 06:18:36 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: HELP!!! Apple IIe - doesn't work! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 May 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > And how do you measure disks in feet? Side by side? :-) > > > > Nope, piled on top of eachother. I have about 50 disks of a diskmag > called "Softdisk" or somehting like that, alone... SoftDisk is cool. It was a subscription "softzine" that just stop being published last year or so. It always had lots of cool little tidbits on it. Definitely worth exploring. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 12:49:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Don't laugh - simple ][e questions In-Reply-To: <864860085.052074.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 May 1997, Nick Challoner wrote: > It seems to work fine, so my big question is can i use any old 5 1/4" > disks in it? is it capable of formatting any old 5 1/4" disks? I ask > for two reasons: 1) so i can make back-up copies of the DOS 3.3 disks > and 2) so i can save stuff. It will format any disks up to DSDD (I believe it can't do HD disks, and I'm not sure about QD). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat May 31 12:46:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: This weekend's haul In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 May 1997, Doug Spence wrote: > I found out that there is a monitor built into the machine, too (press > Control-OpenApple-Reset) but apart from dumping memory eight bytes at a > time and the ability to change the values stored in bytes, I can't figure > out if the monitor can do anything. Some of the hardware is very Apple The monitor does a lot. Try typing L and hitting return and you will get a disassembly. You can specify an address first, like F800L to start disassembly at $F800. > Is this thing just a glorified Apple ][ with an incompatible OS? Not entirely, but basically. > I took the machine apart, too, and I found a place for a battery on the > motherboard, with no battery or battery cover in it. Does the /// have a > system clock? Yes. > Does anyone know if the Apple ][+ or //e can be made to read/write Apple > /// disks in any manner that would be useful for getting files to it? Or > do I have to get software for it in actual disk form at first, before I > can get the thing to do anything useful? Not sure. Although I have one, I've never gotten around to even booting it up. > Can the /// emulate a ][? Yes it can, but you need the emulation system disk. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From roblwill at usaor.net Wed May 7 23:44:28 1997 From: roblwill at usaor.net (Jason Willgruber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:27:42 2005 Subject: Wanted: Macintosh Portable Message-ID: <199808080448.AAA14176@gate.usaor.net> Hello everybody. I was wondering if anyone out there had an old Mac Portable (the Mac laptop) that they'd want to sell. I really don't want to pay all that much for it, and I don't need anything all that fast (I don't know all that much about Macs), but it needs to run at least System 6.0.5. The main reason that I'm looking for one, is that my school uses mainly Macs (the only PC's that they have are a few XT's that you need to turn off the lights to read the monitors), and I don't have a Mac. Whenever I'm working on a project, I'm confined to the 40 minutes of classtime to get it done. I'm not looking for a full-sized Mac, because (1) I don't have the room, and (2), I sort of need the portability, because It's not very often that I'm at home before 8:30 or 9:00 PM, and at that time I don't really feel like working on stuff for school. All I'm really asking is that it works, and can run System 6.0.5 (that's what my school uses). As always, ThAnX in advance, -- -Jason (roblwill@usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318