From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jul 1 06:56:02 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:43 2005 Subject: One for you mainframe and mini types Message-ID: <33B8F052.151F@unix.aardvarkol.com> for those of you interested in mainframes and minis, there's an unknown piece of test equipment going for sale on AuctionWeb, item# yzx34561. it sounds pretty interesting,if one has a use for such a piece of equipment. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 1 02:53:42 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:44 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <2010@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B8B786.6F47@ndirect.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 > is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program > instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. O, come on......of course you can go to work everyday with a penny farthing (early bicycles with the very different sized wheels) but would you? enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From kyrrin at wizards.net Tue Jul 1 08:09:00 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:45 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 In-Reply-To: <199706300702.AAA03766@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970701060900.00f809f0@mail.wizards.net> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 18:16:33 +0000 From: "e.tedeschi" To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >> On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: >> >> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms >> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? Absolutely right, Daniel! Thanks... Then Enrico responded with... >Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a >Ferrari a "goto work car"?) I've seen at least a pair of them used for exactly that about 20 miles east of me in Bellevue (the local Yuppie haven). If someone's got enough bucks to own one of those things, you better believe they're going to get good use out of it. ;-) The whole definition argument seems pretty pointless, Enrico. That's what I was trying to say in the first place. If you want to set your own definitions of what constitutes a 'home computer,' that's fine. The rest of us will happily(?) continue to use whatever strikes our fancy for computing hardware in the home (a much better definition, I think). As has been pointed out, this group is for discussion of 'classic' computers. Bill Whitson's definition of 'classic,' in this case, refers to ANY machine that is ten years or more old. Period. Since MicroVAXen and other DEC machines fall neatly into that category, I will continue to discuss them with others on this group. Period. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have work to do on this beautiful 12-year old HP drafting plotter I just bought (replace a couple of switches, clean it up, and it'll be good to go, especially once I hook it to the MicroVAX!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 08:52:00 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: ibm 3178c Message-ID: i've got an ibm 3178 c, anyone know what it is? (it's look like some kind of terminal) seems to be in 3 main parts i) monitor ii) base of monitor iii) bit that seems to go under base of monitor cheers for any info -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, web utilities. From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jul 1 10:40:57 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970701084517.3e9fa766@mail.crl.com> At 11:17 PM 6/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have, >BASIC All I saw were BASIC cartridges... I'll let you know if anything else turns up. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue Jul 1 10:48:54 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: who's on first? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:31:35 EDT." <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <199707011548.KAA03990@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> As said by Merch: >Uh, actually, try October 1939... with the ABC. That's the Atanasoff - >Berry Computer, which is now recognized as the first functional electronic >computer. I posted 2 or 3 URL's for more info on the web, if there's a >searchable archive of this list, check there for my post. If not, I'll look >it up in mine if I still have it. > >BTW, you're timeline is still a bit off... IIRC John von Neumann invented >the stored-program concept, didn't he? It was Markus & someone who designed >the first UNIVAC mostly with concepts hijacked from the ABC... methinks it >was in 1972 or so when the U.S. Patent office yanked the patent away from >them and gave it back to Atanasoff & Berry. I depends on how you define "computer." Oh no, not another definition war... In what follows I'll try not to use the word computer in isolation. Around the late 1930's there were three groups that were developing machines that would have some claim to the status of pioneering computing devices. At Iowa State, there was the ABC as mentioned. At Harvard, Howard Aiken was developing the Mark I (actuall built by IBM under the name Automatic Sequence Controlled Calculator) and in Germany, Konrad Zuse was building his Z1 in his parent's living room. All three were architected by people who were motivated to solve difficult mathematical problems, and all three had some interesting technological aspects. The ABC was electronic. That is, it used active electrical devices which in those days meant tubes (valves). It also had an interesting dynamic memory system that foreshadowed the delay line memories and later dynamic semiconductor memory. As to purpose, the ABC was very much a single purpose machines; it was to solve simultaneuous linear equations. It was also not particularly automatic in operation. The human operator was responsible for taking temporary results in the form of punched cards and putting them back in as new data to be operated upon. To what degree the device worked is not at all clear. The card punching mechanism was based on a spark burning holes in the card and was reported by Atanasoff and Berry as not ever working reliably enough to solve useful sized problems. There has also been some question raised as to whether or not the circuits would have ever worked reliably. The Harvard Mark I was (according to Aiken) based on Babbage's designs for the Analytical Engine. Though if you read Babbage carefully and look at the Mark I design, there were some things that either Aiken didn't fully understand or that Aiken decided were too hard to implement, so the Mark I was less capable than the Analytical Engine would have been (at least some of Babbage's designs would have been). It was an electromechanical device driven by punched tape. (Actually uncut punched card stock.) This machine was much more general purpose and did work reliably and was used by the Navy. Grace Hopper cut her computing teeth on that machine. The Z1 was also designed as a general purpose calculator that was driven by punched tape. In Zuse's case, the tape was discarded movie film. His machine was fully mechanical though and binary in contrast to the decimal Mark I. It also used a floating point representation as opposed to the Mark I's fixed point. A fourth project began late in this same time, the ENIAC. It's genesis also came from difficult mathematical problems and it was funded by the Army. John Mauchley was interested in weather prediction and began discussing a machine to do it with J. Presper Eckert. Mauchley was a Physicist and Eckert an Electrical Engineer. Eckert was quite familiar with the use of electronic circuits as counters for radar and for counting nuclear events. During the development of the project, Mauchley met Atanasoff at a conference and began comparing notes. Atanasoff invited Mauchley to come to ISU for a visit which Mauchley later did. It was this visit that later provided one nail in the patent cofin. The ENIAC was also a general purpose calculator. It was electronic and decimal. Since the electronics were much faster than the mechanical systems, punched tape or cards would not have kept up as a control mechanism, so it was patchboard programmed. It did have the capability to read data from punched card. (Later a clever engineer did devise a way for it to be programmed by it's bank of coefficient switches for a crude stored program capability. However, this was still not as general as what was to come.) The machine was very much like a combination of an electronic version of the Harvard Mark I and a digital version of the differential analyzers that Bush and others had built. During this project, in 1944, Eckert wrote a paper about magnetic disk devices and as an aside mentioned the possibility that the sequencing instructions could be kept on the disk along with the data, providing the earliest description of stored programming. Before ENAIC was completed, work began on it successor, the EDVAC. This machine was to be a stored program machine. After the design work had been started but before it was completed, von Neumann joined the project and along the way wrote the now famous First Draft paper. Because Eckert's earlier paper had been lost/forgotten, this became the blueprint for all stored program computer work for many years. Von Neumann indicated that he put his name alone on it just because it was a rough draft, but was planning to put the other names (Eckert, Mauchley and others) on the final version. Several on the project felt that he was trying to steal credit for himself though. In 1946, Penn (where this was taking place) hosted a meeting about building computers and the cork was out of the bottle. Projects sprang up at Princeton (led by von Neumann), at Manchester (led by Wilkes IIRC) and at Cambridge in addition to the work at Penn. While all this was going on, Eckert and Mauchley decided to file for patents on the ENIAC. Penn decided to change its patent policy at the same time and asked Eckert and Mauchley to sign over their rights to the University. They declined (over and over again) and left to start the Eckert- Mauchley Computer Company, which through many changes of hands is now part of Unisys. Over the next few years, the Manchester folks first got a small (memory wise) version of their Mark I up and running. Soon thereafter, the folks at Cambridge got the EDSAC up and running and then Eckert and Mauchley got the BINAC up and running in the states. Well, it was apparantly running in the lab. There's been some disagreement on whether or not it ever ran reliably after it was shipped to the customer site. These were the first stored-program computers to be built. It took many years for the patents on the ENIAC to be granted during which time, the computer industry had really taken off. Once they were granted, Honewell and Sperry (then the owner of UNIVAC the successor to EMCC) sued each other. The ABC was used as part of the case. The judge did state in his opinion that ENIAC was substantially derrived from the ABC, but the patents were also overturned on the basis of having been filed too late. Inventors have 1 year after the invention is made public. It seems that there was a demonstration of the machine prior to 1 year before the filing. I (and others) disagree that ENIAC was substantally derrived from ABC. The only similarity seems to be the fact that they were electronic and the idea of electronic counters (which is most of what ENIAC was) had been in place and well known by Eckert before the Mauchley trip to ISU. I don't mean this to dimish the importance of the ABC as the first electronic special-purpose calculator, nor does the ABC dimish the importance of the ENIAC as the first general-purpose electronic calculator. Historically, the ENIAC had a much greater influence, spawning the whole of computing as we know it today. Atanasoff went on to other things and had no dealings with computing except working on the patent trial, and the ABC was dismantled and mostly forgotten. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 1 11:13:39 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: Flex for 6809/6800 Message-ID: <33ba2c37.917971@news.zippo.com> Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. Ben From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 1 09:27:36 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: References: <199707010236.WAA06338@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789@mail.cgocable.net> Jeff, > I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't > handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy > drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out > behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. Why not check out the external 5.25" internals? Point is, can use those easier to obtain 1.44mb drives and use them as 720k in old XT's in place of harder to find 720k drives. I did that just like that in one of those IBM XT using its original controller and a brand new 20 bux 1.44 in PC that allowed me to fire it up with my 720k Dos 5.0 and install it to hd also allows user to interchange data with newer pcs easily. 360k was 40 tracks by 9 sectors, 720k used 80 tracks but the older controller controlled this drives no problem therefore any newer 1.44 will work as a 720k duty. In fact, 1.44 and 720k drives only differs in minor ways: higher frequency heads, extra sensor put in to support the 18 sectors. BIG snap! > Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I > believe. One needs the > PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two > additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about > the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into > one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the > drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power > through the ribbon cable. Thanks for correction and oddball mHz? Most clones uses 8mHz. If you could look in external drive, it might have adapter wirings that will allow you to make new cables adapters for that "1.44" as 720k drives to put in your HX machine. nip! > Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the > low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one > though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it > might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy > didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time. Yeah, but I considered the Tandy's pcs after 286 machines was made then back to 8088's, 386 and 486 was study in quality stuff but one hot rebuke to Tandy for NOT putting in cache for both 386 and 486 machines. :( When I aquired the Tandy 486 EP, used it to run Linux and X windows on it, graphic engine performance is not there and if it did have cache it would be a keeper but I traded it away to my friend's for other items. Right now it's using win95 on it and my friend is going to buy a ISA based windows accelerator card for it. :( The early first 1000 and maybe 2000 that used 2 sided boards looked grabage similar to their 8 bit machines that I seen along with some small percentage is not totally XT compatible. But after 286, things improved enough to be a decent pc. Then RS dropped ball and let competiters' PC's sold through RS. :( Plus they always asks too much $ through and what kicks me hard was canadian RS, yes I am canadian, tried to ask for heatsink paste there because I saw they did have some but no longer stocked so I reduked them for that unwise decision. And took the $ to my friend's local audio repair business to order it in 1oz tube for 15 bux. I also asked my other friend living in USA to check RS to see if RS still stocks these white stuff. Consider a warning for canadian who needs vital stuff from RS. :) (Question: did Tandy used 386dx chips in their machines and those sissy 386sx? I have seen few that did used 386sx but not dx ones... and external cache in one of these machine?) Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 1 15:03:11 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: who's on first? Message-ID: <199707012003.AA15046@world.std.com> . > seems to be the fact that they were electronic and the idea > of electronic counters (which is most of what ENIAC was) had This is fairly complete history of electronic computings origins however there were several electric (relay logic) designs not mentioned here. While slow they capitialized on the then fairly mature telephone realys of varying design. They were generally of two types the contactor or n-pole double throw or the stepping(counting) with typically 11 positions. The later could be used to make counters or registers. In the early years (pre about '44) these were used to make calculator type machines of the programmed or fixed type. Allison From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 16:45:05 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: who's on first? In-Reply-To: <199707011548.KAA03990@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> References: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:31:35 EDT." <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <867790006.1113369.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> On 1 Jul 97 at 10:48, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > Around the late 1930's there were three groups that were developing There's no mention here of the "computer" used by the British during WWII at Bletchley Park. The British computer press often refer to this as the first electronic programmable computer (although i've always been reluctant to believe that outright as i'm aware that project were well underway in the US and elsewhere at that time). It was certainly used first in around 1940/1941 to break German codes and i think it was instrumental in breaking the famous Enigma code and thereby contributed greatly to the allied war effort. I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) fits in the timeline discussed here and indeed whether or not it was the first electronic programmable computer in the world. If this is getting a little off-topic for this list please mail me direct. ...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From marcw at lightside.com Tue Jul 1 14:19:28 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: <199707012147.OAA24515@covina.lightside.com> > On 01-Jul-97, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > >Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball > > I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't > handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy > drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out > behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. > I've been using my HX for some ten years now. Since it won't die it's been upgraded quite a bit. Anyhind, I didn't even know the HX's shipped without a 3.5" floppy. That was standard. Maybe a Shack guy removed it to sell it to someone way back when. > > Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I believe. One needs the > PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two > additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about > the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into > one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the > drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power > through the ribbon cable. > SCSI is what I have on this one also. A 2.5" drive works fine but the other stuff doesn't. When I had the RLL and later an IDE (for a few days), they all got power from the controller card. Some RLL's have power leads on the controller. DCS (Tandy 3rd party stuff) had the IDE stuff. Didn't pay attention where the connectors were on the 8-bit card. > Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the > low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one > though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it > might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy > didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time. > > Jeff Hmm, a 286 design in this shell would've been nice. I didn't realize how compact this case was 'til a neighbor came by with a Toshiba 286 laptop recently. The thing was huge. Ten years and my Tandy 1000 HX keeps running. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com Lightside, Inc. marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org The MailBox BBS marc.williams@652.sasbbs.com Paradigm Shift BBS IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 1 16:52:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: Help identify these Atari S-100 Boards (fwd) Message-ID: Here is a reply I got from alt.atari.2600 on my Atari S-100 boards. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jjessop1@home.com (Jerry Jessop) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit,alt.atari.2600 Subject: Re: Help identify these Atari S-100 Boards Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:08:30 GMT Sam, Looks like you found some boards used in the old 2600 in-house development systems. These units were Cromemco S-100 based computers with the appropriate Atari S-100 cards installed. This system in turn was connected to a PDP-11. Of course they could also be coin-op development tools, hard to tell without looking at them. jj On 30 Jun 1997 00:37:22 GMT, dastar@crl.com (Sam Ismail) wrote: > >I just discovered some *VERY* interesting S100 boards that I didn't >realize I had in my box 'o S-100 boards. They seem to be some kind of >Atari development/prototyping system. The boards are: > >65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, Rev. 2, (c) 1983 Atari > [this is the PCB only] > >Trace Memory Interface, part no. 100-002-2 (two of these) > has (3) Intersil 6402 chips and (3) 26-pin connectors (for interface to a > terminal), DIP switches to select the baud rate for the 6402 chips (up to > 38400 bps). Also has a 40-pin (2-rows of 20) ribbon cable connector > labelled J100. One has a test sticker on it with "OK 10/25/82" written > on it. > >6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, Rev. 4 > has a 6502 and some other stuff, such as a clock speed DIP switch > (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a 40-pin ribbon cable connector > which presumably connects to the Trace Memory Interface card (labelled > COMP BUS J100). > I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete (does not have all the > chips the other one does, for instance the 6502). > >All have the Atari name and logo in yellow lettering. > >Any idea what this stuff is and what it was used for? > >If you can shed any light, please reply to dastar@crl.com. Thanks! -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From lynn at ferberts.com Tue Jul 1 19:30:13 1997 From: lynn at ferberts.com (Lynn Perez-Hewitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: collection value Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701173012.00703444@pop.ferberts.com> Are old (classic) computer magazines worth more now than the issues price? Example: original first issue of BYTE magazine? Or can I tell my husband to throw them out and give away the tin shed? Lynn Lynn Perez-Hewitt lynn@ferberts.com P.O. Box 1630 Oracle, AZ 85623 520.896.9316 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jul 1 23:01:20 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:46 2005 Subject: collection value References: <3.0.32.19970701173012.00703444@pop.ferberts.com> Message-ID: <33B9D290.6@unix.aardvarkol.com> A few weeks ago, there were some questions posted concerning the Trackstar board that was sold by Tandy Corp. some years ago. Here is the spec sheet on this board that I found on thier website. It has not been edited. ****************************************************************************** Trackstar E (250-1038) Features Faxback Doc. # 5540 The Trackstar E is a 65C02 Parallel Processor board. It may be installed into any IBM PC, XT, AT, 386 or compatible, and will provide you with the ability to run Apple software on those machines. The Trackstar E supports most Apple features and contains enhancements not present on the original Apple systems. Your Trackstar E comes standard with the following features: * 65C02 Microprocessor * 128K Main Memory * 40 & 80 column Text * Apple LoRes, HiRes, and Double High Res Graphics * Supports up to four disk drives * Supports a hard disk drive * Supports standard Serial and Parallel ports * Apple compatible 5.25" disk drive port * Apple IIc compatible game port * Thunderclock compatible Apple clock. (SMM/jlc-03/28/94) ********************************************************************************* -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 1 20:08:41 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055FFF87@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? I tried putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the "Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? Any info appreciated!! (anyone have a spare keyboard? I need a few keys) thanks Kai From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 18:46:33 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2060@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33B8B786.6F47@ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 > > is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program > > instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. > > O, come on......of course you can go to work everyday with a penny > farthing (early bicycles with the very different sized wheels) but would > you? If I rode a bicycle, and had a penny-farthing, I might well use it, yes. Please give me one _good_ reason not to. While I can think of other things that would be a good as the MK-14 for (say) I2C chip testing (a microcontroller board springs to mind), I can't think of anything that would be _better_. The origianl statement stands. I can't think of a single computer system (owned by me or not) that can't be used for useful work in 1997. The fact that it's old has nothing to do with it. I can think of many applications that need fast machines with plenty of memory. I'd not use (most) classic computers for those. But as I rarely need to do such work, I see no reason _not_ to use a classic. > > enrico -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 18:58:50 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 Message-ID: <2062@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <3.0.1.32.19970701060900.00f809f0@mail.wizards.net> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > >> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > >> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) At one time I had a PDP8/e and a PDP11/44 _on my desk_. They were thus desktop computers :-). The 11/44 is now elsewhere, since I now have the 8/e's peripherals on my desk.... From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 1 23:02:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Recycling Computers References: <3.0.32.19970701173012.00703444@pop.ferberts.com> <33B9D290.6@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <33B9D2BB.32F7@rain.org> In checking through the net, I found http://www.advancedrecovery.com/nytext.html, which is a NY Times article that talks about recycling, dismantling, etc. of old computers. It is interesting!!! From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 1 19:05:00 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055FFF87@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199707020404.AAA21337@mail.cgocable.net> Kai, Wow, LISA! It's a relic nonelessness but to amire at. :) This is kinda of a abortive experiment with "Mac" stuff then Mac became closed up and popular next year. Also very rare too! Thank yourself for not getting Lisa 1 type...it used 5.25" duo disk. Gah! Dual head cutouts not one like those 360/1.22 disks. You *MIGHT* have a stuck brake on that hard drive, easily correctable. Good thing you asked. :) The 10mb model uses nonstandard interfaced 10mb 5.25" FH size. Now, did you hear the "clunk" or not right after module tests? If no "clunk" the brake is not releasing the hard drive to allow it spin up. The error should show: Four horizontal fine lines with "crossed" check on it and error code 81 under this symbol? If you do, or different problem let me know! Lisa is odd ball enough to not able to run regular mac programs, it needs the Lisaworks stuff and troughie thing is this hard drive is not formatted like we do with most macs...! > I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. > > The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a > MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like > it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular > Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. > > How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? I tried > putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the > "Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. With hd out of action, this "XL" machine is still stock 2/10 unless the XL software is started first then allowing you to boot proper disk. Cannot borrow any disk else from different macs for this XL but with this stuff provided by this company. That is clearly previous owner missed the point of not giving you original stuff that came with this XL. > > Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? > > Any info appreciated!! Okie, Lisa 2/10 and Lisa XL is no different in hardware but used different operating system. Lisa 2/10 uses Lisa OS and Lisa XL uses Macintosh System software *AND* MacWorks XL a lisa program is a Mac 64k emulation to run the mac stuff. Booting on XL type is in two stages: boot from hd to load the mac ROM software and "restarts" itself and boot from hd to load Mac OS/finder. Reminds me of LBA driver style on non-LBA machines with >500mb hd attached. :) The Lisa 2/10 is very desireable to upgrade to scsi capable, expand the screen image to bigger screen and 800k upgrade with ROM added and with new Mac system software and MacWorks Plus. There is hardware hack to add more addressing lines to break the 2mb limit to 4mb. > > (anyone have a spare keyboard? I need a few keys) Dunno. ask around.. :( > > thanks No problem! > > Kai Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 1 19:24:19 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Recycling Computers In-Reply-To: <33B9D2BB.32F7@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707020423.AAA22934@mail.cgocable.net> My hosent opinion: Gah! That is more of a recycler than reselling complete system cheaply to users who would want them. what left of it can be done recycled which is my preference. > In checking through the net, I found > http://www.advancedrecovery.com/nytext.html, which is a NY Times article > that talks about recycling, dismantling, etc. of old computers. It is > interesting!!! In Canadian Crown assents, computers is *ALWAYS* sold via auction only asking too much and disappears for ever. :( ALso especially in miltery, drills holes into chips and shred boards into 2" squares, hard drive is stipped down and platters is removed which is cut up and melted down under strict protection even the hd is from low risk area. :-( ) They WONT release hard drive units for warrenty repairs because, I knew because I saw a note at one of business that they deal with to request a new board or exhange from a hd maker to extract the data. Horrible and that why I did not see any significient stuff around here to grab. Jason D. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 1 23:23:38 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: FAQ Bonanza Message-ID: ============================================================================= DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 2.1, 3.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Mailing Lists ---------------- 1.1 Mailing List Basics 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot How to set to Digest How to Subscribe How to Unsubscribe 2. FTP ------ 2.1 FTP Basics 3. World Wide Web ----------------- 3.1 WWW Basics ============================================================================= 1.1 Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 FTP Basics FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually termed PUT. Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.27. You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked for a password enter your internet e-mail address. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 WWW Basics The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. The ClassicCmp site is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html. ============================================================================= From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 1 23:24:22 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: FAQ Bonanza Message-ID: ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.2 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 1.5, 1.7, 2.9, 2.10 Updated Sections: 1.1, 2.3, 2.4, 3.1 Removed: 5.4, 6.1-on ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? 1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? 2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? Collecting ---------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get back to you eventually. 1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there are members of this list in a number of different countries. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods if you actually need info on them, not just to show off. 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 180 and changing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines, books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step. Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier. I'm working on putting together a list of books and tools that a beginner should get his hands on. If you have suggestions, let me know. ============================================================================= From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 1 23:25:34 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: FAQ Bonanza Message-ID: ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 3 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Technical FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.1 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 3 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regularly asked questions which are technical in nature. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 5.1 Updated Sections: 1.2, 2.4, 4.1, 5.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. General ------------------ 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 2. Media -------- 2.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 2.4 What disk sizes are there? 2.5 How do I take care of old media? 3. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 3.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 3.3 How about capacitors? 3.4 Anything else? 3.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? 4. Software ----------- 4.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 4.2 What's the best way to back up my software? 5. Specific Problems/Solutions ------------------------------ 5.1 Is it possible to bypass an RF modulator to achieve composite output? ============================================================================= 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, cold (broken) solder joints, bent pins, etc. It may be a good idea to remove and re-seat all socketed components and connectors. If anything burned or overheated it will probably pay to replace it before powering up the unit. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. If you have really cool tools (like a logic analyzer) it has been suggested that you use them to record critical information from those oh-so-hard-to-find custom chips. Specific information on how to do this is beyond the scope of a FAQ, but you probably know what you need to if you own the appropriate tools. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Running the power supply without a load could result in damage to it. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Recommended commercial products: Purple Stuff from Kragen [for discoloration] Brasso [ink/marker] (can discolor plastic) Antistatic Foam Cleaner from Electrolube [for discoloration/markings] Citra-Solv [for discoloration] (can dissolve plastic if undiluted) Cameo Copper Cleaner [ink/marker] Naptha [for stickers/goop/spooge] (very flammable) 3M GP Adhesive Remover [for stickers/goop/spooge] CRC 226 / CRC 556 [for stickers/goop/spooge] Fulcron [for discoloration] Blue Shower / BS II [for stickers/goop/spooge] Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Recommended commercial products: Electrolube contact cleaning sprays. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. If there is reason not to use a dishwasher (some key labels can come off) it is usually possible to remove each keycap and clean conventionally. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. 3.5 inch disks never came hard-sectored and, in fact, it would not be possible. 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density DD, HD (sometimes work, not advisable!) High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. In the case of quad density no substitution should be considered reliable. DD and HD disks both can be forced to work. One may work better than the other given the peculiarities of various drives. 2.4 What disk sizes are there? Disk Types? Physically? Standard Disks Unique/Proprietary Disks --------------------------------------------------------- 8" (Floppy) 5" (MiniFloppy) 5.25" (MiniFloppy) 3.25" (MicroFloppy) 3.5" (MicroFloppy) 3" (MicroFloppy) 2.5" 2" In addition to odd sizes - there is at least one type of disk which was physically different. "Twiggy" disks for the Apple Lisa 1 were regular 5.25" disks with the exception that they had two read/write windows. One was oriented "north" of the center hole, the other "south". 2.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 3.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 3.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 3.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 3.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jul 1 23:59:18 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 In-Reply-To: <2062@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970701215918.00cb44fc@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:58 PM 7/1/97 GMT, you wrote: >Talking of plotters... > >Does anybody know anything about the Tektronix 4662? I have one, and the >service manual, but no programming manual. I think I can fix the electronic >side (and the mechanics if it needs it), but I have no idea on how to talk to >the thing. It has both RS232 and GPIB ports. Does anyone have a command >reference or whatever? I have one, and (I believe) the programmers reference and no service manual. (and Tek is 1.5 miles up the road B^} )Sounds like there may be potential here, eh? Looking for anything in particular? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 1 17:45:01 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: who's on first? References: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:31:35 EDT." <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> <867790006.1113369.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B9886D.4F76@ndirect.co.uk> Nick Challoner wrote: > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) Colossus I ? enrico From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 2 00:10:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055FFF87@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970701221001.00f70094@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:08 PM 7/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. > >The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a >MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like >it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular >Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. > >How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? Sounds like the software is not seralized properly and it wants to see the diskette to validate the software. (the Lisa serialized the software to the machine on initial load) >I tried putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the >"Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. > >Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? Yep... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 2 00:17:09 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Recycling Computers References: <199707020423.AAA22934@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33B9E455.6F2B@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > My hosent opinion: > > Gah! That is more of a recycler than reselling complete system > cheaply to users who would want them. what left of it can be done > recycled which is my preference. > Ah, but you are not reading between the lines. If you looked at the pictures and read the story, you would see a tremdous source of computer parts and possibly even complete units instead of having to rely only on your sources! From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed Jul 2 00:35:53 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Auction: Odds and Ends, Power Supplies, etc. Message-ID: <33B9E8B9.6B97@oboe.calpoly.edu> I am still sorting through my stuff and have a few odd items up on the eBay auction. These type of things go pretty cheap (a buck for 3 power supplies and 4 RF adapters? Cheaper than the Goodwill!) but are sometimes hard to find (especially when you need one...power supplies?). Anyway, all you have to do is go to the link listed and check the price. Remember to figure shipping into what you want to pay. I'm in CA. Lot of Power supplies & RF Adapters (TI99/4A) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:38:45 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=fpl6975 Indus GT Black Drive for Commodore 64 (photo) Current bid: $14.50 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:50:38 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=mtr1454 Lot of 3 Joysticks (photo) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:57:24 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hpq2180 Atari 800XL and Power Supply (No Workee?) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/05/97, 13:10:40 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ntp8872 Thanks for reading, Greg From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Jul 2 00:36:55 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Flex for 6809/6800 References: <33ba2c37.917971@news.zippo.com> Message-ID: <33B9E8F7.7C5A@valuenet.net> Benedict Chong wrote: > > Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? > > There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to > let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. > > Ben Don't worry, I have several copys... -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 2 01:36:02 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 References: <2062@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B9F6D2.1AF7@Brighton-UK.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > The whole definition argument seems pretty pointless, Enrico. That's what > > I was trying to say in the first place. If you want to set your own > > definitions of what constitutes a 'home computer,' that's fine. > But this is NOT a home computers list. It's an ALL computers list. That is made > 100% clear in the FAQ. Define what you like, talk about what you like (provided > it computes and is at least 10 years old), and the rest of us will do the same > > > us will happily(?) continue to use whatever strikes our fancy for computing > > hardware in the home (a much better definition, I think). > > > > As has been pointed out, this group is for discussion of 'classic' > > computers. Bill Whitson's definition of 'classic,' in this case, refers to > > ANY machine that is ten years or more old. Period. EXACTLY. I think that before flaming and attacking someone for what he never said I think it would be wiser to read slowly and thoughtfully what it arrives on your screen: - I did not start this war of words on home computers (someone else did) - I am not against the talking or the collectin of "big" computers - I don't think that this mailing list is just about home-computers (whatever they might be) - I wish you stop being so superficial and possessive and get on with collecting and discussing about collecting and using old historical computers - I wish you stop beign so self-centered and concentrate in finding good sides in people and situations I think this list is a wonderful occasion for us all to learn and share our experience on something whcih changed the way we all act and think Thank you enrico From starling at umr.edu Wed Jul 2 01:04:39 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: <199707020404.AAA21337@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jul 2, 97 00:05:00 am Message-ID: <199707020604.BAA07014@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Wow, LISA! It's a relic nonelessness but to amire at. :) This is > kinda of a abortive experiment with "Mac" stuff then Mac became > closed up and popular next year. Also very rare too! Thank yourself > for not getting Lisa 1 type...it used 5.25" duo disk. Gah! Dual > head cutouts not one like those 360/1.22 disks. Yes, the 5.25" ``Twiggy disk'' models are much more of a pain in the ass to get running, but I'd gladly trade my 2/5 for a Lisa 1 any day. They're ultimo rare! If nothing else, I could figure out how to make my own twiggies out of 1.2M 5.25"s probably... (I think twiggies stored around a meg of data, I think) > Okie, Lisa 2/10 and Lisa XL is no different in hardware but used > different operating system. *BEEP* Wrong. Sorry... :) The Mac XL (And other Macintoshes) has a different resolution on the monitor than a True Lisa. When one runs MacWorks on a True Lisa, the screen looks kind of fat. When one runs MacWorks XL on a Mac XL, it looks like a Macintosh. Plus, most (if not all) Mac XLs have a 800k floppy instead of the Lisa-Stock 400k. The fact that the poor thing boots to a Sun Remarketing logo, leads me to believe that it may have indeed been bastardized by those butchers at Sun Rem. > The Lisa 2/10 is very desireable to upgrade to scsi capable, expand > the screen image to bigger screen and 800k upgrade with ROM added > and with new Mac system software and MacWorks Plus. There is > hardware hack to add more addressing lines to break the 2mb limit to > 4mb. Yes, but then you wouldn't have a Lisa.... Part of the fun of owning a Lisa is USING it as one. I can't remember the exact symptoms Kai's Lisa was having, but it might be possible that his floppy drive is kaput. The "Lisa Lite" floppy controller card is notoriously flakey. My 2/5 blew her 3rd one recently and I'm in the market for one... (hint, hint... :) starling From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 01:52:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 In-Reply-To: <33B9F6D2.1AF7@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > - I wish you stop being so superficial and possessive and get on with > collecting and discussing about collecting and using old historical > computers > - I wish you stop beign so self-centered and concentrate in finding good > sides in people and situations I would hope that, for the good of the dicussion, the addressee of this message will ignore these inflammatory remarks or at least address them in private e-mail. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 01:50:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: I had a business meal tonight and after some discussion I found out that one of our guests is sort of into collecting old computers (basically he never got rid of any of the systems he's bought over time). One of the systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and for me to comprehend it. I told him of my plans for the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival (which, by the way, is still on...I'm still in the planning phases) and he mentioned that he had close contacts with a show called The Computer Guys on the Discovery Channel and would arrange for me to meet with them to discuss possible coverage of the show. Very nice! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 02:34:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 2 08:14:50 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707021314.AA12389@world.std.com> > From: Tony Duell > The origianl statement stands. I can't think of a single computer syste > by me or not) that can't be used for useful work in 1997. The fact that > old has nothing to do with it. Tony, Everyone, I'd be loath to point out that one of the more common houseflys in computer terms is the PDP-8. While not large or fast they are common still running CNC machines that were built over 20 years ago. I come from a time when home computerists lusted for one of these. Granted the 80xx was still TBD! ;-) Allison From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 2 09:21:06 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? References: Message-ID: <33BA63D2.97D@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic > systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the > very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? Well...from my Sony book they list in 1982 a "new desktop microcomputer system, "SCM-70" and its peripherals for video as well as business applications". Could this be it? enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 2 09:33:26 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <33BA66B6.3935@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: One of the > systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a > video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this > system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody > knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and > for me to comprehend it. Video brain was made by a firm called UMTECH, used a microprocessor called F8 and had 1 to 4K of RAM memory. It was possible to store the data on cassette and, you are right there, it had many plug-in cartridges with games on them. It was sold mainly through departments stores and specialty electronic stores (at least that is what "A Collector's guide to personal computers" book has to say about it) enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 2 09:40:07 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: RT-11 and OS/8 floppy interleave algorithms? Message-ID: <33BA6847.201E@xlisper.mv.com> Does anyone know the RX01 floppy sector interleave algorithms for RT-11 and OS/8? Thanks in advance, David Betz -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 2 11:07:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: RT-11 and OS/8 floppy interleave algorithms? In-Reply-To: <33BA6847.201E@xlisper.mv.com> from "David Betz" at Jul 2, 97 10:40:07 am Message-ID: <9707021507.AA28189@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2083 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/4ea4d8df/attachment.ksh From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Wed Jul 2 11:35:46 1997 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970702123546.00988a10@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> At 02:21 PM 7/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >Sam Ismail wrote: >> >> I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic >> systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the >> very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? > >Well...from my Sony book they list in 1982 a "new desktop microcomputer >system, "SCM-70" and its peripherals for video as well as business >applications". > >Could this be it? > >enrico >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: > I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit with it that contains an 8086 processor. This "brick" plugs into the back of the SMC-70 using a centronics-type 50 pin cable. According ot the documentation, when this "supercharger" is plugged in, the Z-80 processor in the main unit handles all of the I/O functions and the 8086 becomes the default CPU. The system uses either CP/M (in Z-80 mode) or CM/M-86 (in 8086 mode). I have manuals and documentation for the machine, the Sony applications, and the CP/M and CP/M-86 operating systems, but the original system and applications diskettes were not passed along to the person I got the machine from by its original owner. Anybody have any idea where I could get at least the OS for this thing? It looks like a neat little machine. Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From s-ware at nwu.edu Wed Jul 2 12:06:33 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970702123546.00988a10@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ken Marshall wrote: > I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is > moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white > and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 > connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit I have an SMC-70 as well; unfortunately, I have neither an OS nor the floppy drives for mine. The few pieces of information that I have found about this machine are that it was (supposedly) the first mass-produced computer to use 3.5 inch floppy disks and that it was used as a part of a video editing controller that Sony produced in the early '80s. The floppy disk claim does make some sense, since the 3.5 inch format was developed by Sony. A few more interesting things about this machine: - The power supply is located in the rear portion of the case, which is mounted on tracks and movable. Moving the power supply away from the main portion of the case reveals a ribbon cable with several 50-pin socket connectors. This ribbon cable terminates at the 50-pin Centronics connector on the back of the unit. Does anyone have a description of this bus? I'm assuming that there were options available that fit into this area and extend the length of the unit, somewhat like the options that can be connected to the IBM PC Convertible. - There is a switch on the side of the unit that selects the startup device, which can be either ROM or disk. I'm assuming that the boot ROM was an optional product. In any case, mine doesn't have a boot ROM. Does anyone know if the SMC-70 floppy drives are the same as (or compatible with) any of the other drives that are made by Sony, such as the 400k SSDD drives used in the Macintosh 128k/512k? If anyone is interested, I can snap a few pictures of the SMC-70 tonight, put them on the Web, and post the URL. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 20:36:42 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA23395@mx2.u.washington.edu> DIGIAL network. > My favorites were MILRAT, and the other two cluster members MILROT and > MILDEW. They were apt names for vaxen located where straight down through > the floor meant you were in the pond. Reminds me of the spinoffs of SNOBOL -- FASBOL, SPITBOL... Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 20:31:35 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Old Tandys Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA24322@mx5.u.washington.edu> Tandy has an 800 number -- (800) THE-SHACK (You musk key in the final "K"...it won't work without it). The technicians are knowledgeable about the older machines and *very* helpful. btw, I have some trash-80 software (if bitrot hasn't got to it) From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 20:54:13 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA18919@mx3.u.washington.edu> I had a 1000HX (still have, I think -- it's out on loan) with internal 5 1/4, external 3 1/2 From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 21:18:15 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: who's on first? Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA23493@mx2.u.washington.edu> > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) I seem to remember it was codenamed "the Bomb", as that was the British mangling of the Polish word. From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Wed Jul 2 13:24:05 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <199707021824.OAA09698@wincom.net> At 12:34 AM 7/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic >systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the >very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? > > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Hi, Sam: In 1983 Sony Video Products Catalog listed a SMC70 microcomputer, and again in 1986 Japan Video Centre (Toronto) listed a SMC70G "Genlocker" which was supposed to make a good character generator for video production. I remember going to see one, but didn't bite because they wanted about six grand for it, and that is a bit much, even in Canada. Regards Charlie Fox From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Wed Jul 2 13:39:35 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <199707021839.OAA11395@wincom.net> At 12:06 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ken Marshall wrote: > >> I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is >> moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white >> and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 >> connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit > >I have an SMC-70 as well; unfortunately, I have neither an OS nor the >floppy drives for mine. The few pieces of information that I have found >about this machine are that it was (supposedly) the first mass-produced >computer to use 3.5 inch floppy disks and that it was used as a part of a >video editing controller that Sony produced in the early '80s. The >floppy disk claim does make some sense, since the 3.5 inch format was >developed by Sony. > >A few more interesting things about this machine: > >- The power supply is located in the rear portion of the case, which is >mounted on tracks and movable. Moving the power supply away from the main >portion of the case reveals a ribbon cable with several 50-pin socket >connectors. This ribbon cable terminates at the 50-pin Centronics >connector on the back of the unit. Does anyone have a description of this >bus? I'm assuming that there were options available that fit into this >area and extend the length of the unit, somewhat like the options that can >be connected to the IBM PC Convertible. > >- There is a switch on the side of the unit that selects the startup >device, which can be either ROM or disk. I'm assuming that the boot ROM >was an optional product. In any case, mine doesn't have a boot ROM. > >Does anyone know if the SMC-70 floppy drives are the same as (or >compatible with) any of the other drives that are made by Sony, such as >the 400k SSDD drives used in the Macintosh 128k/512k? > >If anyone is interested, I can snap a few pictures of the SMC-70 tonight, >put them on the Web, and post the URL. > >-- >Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu > The Sony part numbers listed for the manuals are as follows: SML7000Z Operating instruction binder. SML7001Z Sony basic introductory manual& basic user guide. SML7002Z Basic reference manual SML7003Z System monitor manual SMC70. SML7004Z Hardware manual, technical description, SMC70. I suggest not ordering them retail from Sony as they are listing at about $ 50.00 ea.in 1986 Cheers Charlie Fox From william at ans.net Wed Jul 2 13:36:41 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers In-Reply-To: <199707021824.OAA09698@wincom.net> Message-ID: <199707021836.AA02854@interlock.ans.net> Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing would be very handy. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ccm at sentex.net Wed Jul 2 15:57:50 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Video Brain Message-ID: <199707022057.QAA08031@granite.sentex.net> >Sam Ismail wrote: > One of the >> systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a >> video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this >> system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody >> knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and >> for me to comprehend it. >Video brain was made by a firm called UMTECH, used a microprocessor >called F8 and had 1 to 4K of RAM memory. It was possible to store the >data on cassette and, you are right there, it had many plug-in >cartridges with games on them. It was sold mainly through departments >stores and specialty electronic stores (at least that is what "A >Collector's guide to personal computers" book has to say about it) > >enrico > >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: > > > This is a case of two computers and one name. The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the early 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 70 intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monitor. Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. Yours in good faith. From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 2 17:18:28 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: who's on first? In-Reply-To: <33B9886D.4F76@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <867878411.1011724.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> On 1 Jul 97 at 22:45, e.tedeschi wrote: > > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) > > Colossus I ? Yes! that was it. Thanks Enrico. Now back to the main question in my post: where does this fit in to the timeline of early computers? ...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From jrice at texoma.net Wed Jul 2 17:08:35 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 Message-ID: <33BAD163.7F959B38@texoma.net> Does anyone out there have a Tandy Model 100, that is non functioning? My LCD display died and RS Parts want $225.00 for a new one. Thanks, James From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 2 17:17:06 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: 8088 ROM image (fwd) Message-ID: If anyone can help this guy out, please e-mail him (he does not subscribe AFAIK to the mailimg list.) Thanks, Les ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 18:57:12 -0700 From: michael neufeld To: more@camlaw.Rutgers.EDU Subject: 8088 ROM image Hello, Would you happen to have the BIOS for an 8088 IBM PC, XT or compatible? I would like to build a DOS compatible single board computer, however I need a BIOS and/or information on it. Any help you could give me would be appreciated! Thanks, Michael Neufeld mneufeld@awinc.com From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jul 2 17:39:43 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Early Computer History (RE: who's on first? ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20562F03B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Nick Challoner > On 1 Jul 97 at 22:45, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > > > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) > > > > Colossus I ? > Yes! that was it. Thanks Enrico. > It was just called Colossus at the time (they ended up building 10 of them). They're rebuilding one at Bletchley Park. > Now back to the main question in my > post: where does this fit in to the timeline of early computers? > The following are arguable.... Colossus (1944) was probably the first electronic computer. ENIAC (1946) was probably the first general-purpose electronic computer, while Colossus was built strictly to break a German cipher. Manchester/Harvard Mark 1 (1948) was probably first electronic stored-program computer. (ENIAC, though built in '46, was made stored-program in 1948, complicating matters somewhat) EDSAC (1949) is sometimes called the first full-scale operational stored-program computer. UNIVAC 1 (1952) was probably the first commercial computer. I haven't been able to find any citations of the first all-solid-state computer. Kai From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 2 17:58:12 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer Info Message-ID: <2125@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Somebody (I forget who) was asking for information on the Exidy Sorcerer. I've found the manuals, and will give a little useful info below. Memory Map : 0-1FFF 8K RAM (standard) - 1F50-1F90 Monitor stack, 1F91-1FFF Monitor workspace. [Or 0-3FFF 16K RAM, 0-7FFF 32K RAM, with the monitor stuff at the top of that] C000-DFFF 8K ROM cartridge [Or D000-DFFF 4K ROM cartridge, A000-DFFF 16K ROM cartridge] E000-EFFF Monitor ROM F000-F07F Video Scratchpad F080-F7FF Video (Screen) RAM F800-FBFF Ascii PROMs FC00-FDFF Standard graphics FE00-FFFF User Graphics Monitor Commands : DU DUmp memory from to EN ENter hex data to memory starting at . Type / to get out of this command TE TEst RAM from to . TE C TEst RAM continously. MO MOve block - to address MO S MOve bytes from to SA SAve block - onto cassette with file FI List FIles on cassette LO
LOad file from cassette at address
. The last 2 arguments are optional LOG
LOad and Go file as above GO GO at address (run program) PP Run Program Pack (ROM cartridge). If no paramenter given, do a warm start, otherwise cold SE = SEt monitor parameters : S=XX display delay to XX T=X Tape rate (0=1200 baud, 1 = 300 baud) F=XX set file type. D8 == non-auto-execute. Bx = Basic programs X=XXXX set execution address in tape file header O=V set output to video =P Parallel output =L Centronics Printer =S Tape output =XXXX send to address I=K set input to keyboard =P Parallel input =S Tape input =XXXX read from address CR CReate Batch file on tape unit 1 LI LIst Batch file BA run BAtch file OV End (OVer) of batch file. Returns control to the keyboard Memory : There are 2 rows of DRAM chips on the main PCB. Supported configurations are ; 2 rows of 4K chips (8K total) Front row (only) 16K chips (16K) 2 rows of 16K chips (32K) There are 2 jumpers at the front edge of the board (column 11). The front jumper is fitted if there are 2 rows of RAMs in the system. The rear one is fitted for 16K rams, removed for 4K rams. Pinouts: Serial interface (RH 25 pin connector) 1 : Shield 1 2 RS232 out 3 RS232 in 4 Ground 5 Aux level output to cassette 1 6,7,8 Ground 9 +12V 10 N/C 11 RS232 in 12 Motor control #1 + 12 Motor control #2 + 14 Shield 2 15 Microphone level output to cassette 1 16 microphone #2 17 Ground 18 Aux 2 19 Ground 20 Earphone input from cassette #1 21 Ear 2 22 N/C 23 RS223 out 24 Motor Control #1 - 25 Motor Control #2 - Parallel interface (LH 25 pin connector) 1 Ground 2 Output data Accepted 3 Output data Available 4 Output D7 5 Output D6 6 Output D5 7 Output D4 8 Ground 9 Input Data Available 10 Input D0 11 Input D2 12 Input D4 13 Input D6 14 N/C 15 +5V 16 Output D0 17 Output D1 18 Output D2 19 Output D3 20 +5V 21 Input data accepted 22 Input D1 23 Input D3 24 Input D5 25 Input D7 System bus (50 pin edge connector) 1 Reset out 2 Int* 3 wait* 4 Data bus enable (into sorcerer) 5 Busrq* 6 NMI* 7 Buskack* 8 Data Bus Direction (into sorcerer) 9 ROM Enable* 10 Phi1 (clock?) 11 ROM PRE 12 Reset Ack 13 Phi2 (clock out) 14 Up8K 15 Mreq* 16 M1* 17 Rd* 18 iorq* 19 rfsh* 20 wr* 21 A8 22 halt* 23 A10 24 A9 25 A15 26 A11 27 A13 28 A14 29 A0 30 A12 31 A2 32 A1 33 A4 34 A3 35 A6 36 A5 37 D0 38 A7 39 D2 40 D1 41 D4 42 D3 43 D6 44 D5 45 Reset input 46 D7 47 N/C 48 I/O 49 Ground 50 Ground ROMpack slot 1 A7 2 A6 3 A5 4 A4 5 A3 6 A2 7 A1 8 A0 9 A9 10 A8 11 D0 12 D1 13 D2 14 D3 15 D4 16 D5 17 D6 18 D7 19 A11 20 A10 21 RomDIS 22 A14 23 ROMPRE 24 A12 25 A13 26 +12V 27 -5V 28 N/C 29 +5V 30 Gnd Centronics printer cable Sorcerer Printer Signal 1 19-30 Ground 2 10 Ack 4 1 Stb 5 8 D6 6 7 D5 7 6 D4 8 19-30 Ground 16 2 D0 17 3 D1 18 4 D2 19 5 D3 25 11 Busy 9 D7 (Unused - maybe tie to ground - ARD) Serial cable : This was a 'hydra' cable with a DB25 to fit the sorcerer, 8 jack/phone plugs for the cassette recorders and a DB25 serial connector. I'll try to give the wirelist Sorcerer Device RS232 port 2 DB25/2 (TxD) 7 DB25/7 (Ground) 3 DB25/3 (RxD) 8 DB25/8 (Ground) Tape 1 : (Mic, Aux, Ear 3.5mm (mini) phone plugs, Remote 2.5mm (submini) phone plug) 15 Mic plug tip 1 Mic plug sleeve 5 Aux plug tip 4 Aux plug sleeve 20 Ear plug tip 19 Ear plug sleeve 24 Remote plug tip 12 Remote plug sleeve The remote connections are swapped for some recorders Tape 2 (Notes as above) 16 Mic plug tip 14 Mic plug sleeve 18 Aux plug tip 17 Aux plug sleeve 21 Ear plug tip 6 Ear plug sleeve 25 Remote plug tip 13 Remote plug sleeve I seem to remeber that something was asked about the PSU. According to my manual, the PSU was mostly on the main board, and used 3 off 3-terminal regulators for the +5V, +12V and -5V lines. If these are present, then the external (to the PCB) part of the PSU is simply a mains transformer giving 16V C/T and (probably) 16V). But if you don't have these regulators, let me know, and I'll try to figure out what is going on. -tony From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 2 18:47:44 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Today's Wall Street Journal Article Message-ID: All: For your enjoyment... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking Why We Can't Part With Those Vintage PCs By G. PASCAL ZACHARY Staff Reporter of TIIE WALL STREET JOURNAI. When it comes to her husband's habit of clut-tering their Redmond, Wash., home with broken and outmoded computer gear, Pam Vavra knows where to draw the line. The kitchen. Last month, Brad, her husband, stuffed a Mason jar with dozens of old memory chips and put it on a shelf next to similar jars that held fruit. Brad thought "it looked cool," he says, but she disagreed. "The kitchen is mine," she told him. "Your chips don't go with the decor." It would be an exaggeration to say that in kitchens all over America, people are filling their shelves with old computer gear. But as computers become nearly as common as toasters, the space devoted to computer junk expands, too. To be sure, some people have always had a hard time throwing things away. Didn't everyone's grandmother save string? Like the savers of old, today's digital packrats can't help themselves. "The reason you can't throw it away like an old shoe box is pre-cisely because you've established a prior relationship with it," says Brigitte Jordan, an anthropologist at Xerox Corp. who studies the relationship between people and things. As computers become more sophisticated, Ms. Jordan says, human interactions with them become more in-tense, intimate and memorable, making it harder for owners to part with their gear. For instance, Jim Kelnhofer, a programmer at Microsoft Corp., keeps his first computer in plain view in his bedroom. "I turn it on once or twice a year," he says. Hanging onto old computer stuff isn't just sentimen-tal, though. Some people paid so much for their outmoded machines that they can't bear to part with them for a song. And with computers changing so rapidly-obsoles-cence typically occurs in three years-many owners com-bat the disorientation of rapid change by keeping their old stuff nearby. "My theory is that these folks are so giddy with the pace of change that they keep this junk around as a trail of intellectual breadcrumbs, leading them back to their computing origins," says Paul Saffo, director of the Institute for the Future in Menlo Park, Calif. That's certainly true of Mr. Vavra, a software programmer who keeps the first computer he ever owned (a Franklin Ace) in his garage. A year ago, he donated to Microsoft's museum his Apple Lisa, a precursor to the Macintosh, but he can't part with an original Apple II, a computer on which he wrote some of his first programs in the 1970s. It is even more common for people to surround themselves with old gear at work. Alan Cooper, a computer consultant in Palo Alto, Calif., keeps a line of old chips on his desktop computer monitor and a few hundred computer punchcards -- not used since the 1970s -- in his desk drawer. "That's a lifetime supply now," says Mr. Cooper, who uses them as bookmarks. Mr. Cooper occasionally tosses out gear, but not easily. He is still sorry about his decision five years ago to give away an original Macintosh to a public school. Whenever he considers tossing out, say, the Hewlett-Packard calculator he bought in college 25 years ago, he thinks about how much he misses the Mac. "I don't want to make that mistake again," he says. While vintage computers provide psychological ballast against the shock of the new, there are sound economic reasons for retaining obsolete machines: Many are im-possible to sell or give away. In California alone, an esti-mated two million PCs are abandoned each year. Many sit in closets or warehouses or under desks. Others are sold at yard sales, left on the street, or cannibalized by recyclers for valuable metals. Most charities, for instance, have firm standards on which computers they will accept as donations. “We don’t want your junk,” says Helga Luce, a spokeswoman for Goodwill Industries. Even perfectly good computers often can't be given away. The Detwiler Foundation, which donates to schools computers rescued from oblivion, doesn't take machines that are powered by anything less than Intel's nine-year-old 386 chip. "We're not doing a school a favor by giving them a 286," says Diane Detwiler, the foundation's executive director, referring to Intel's 15-year-old microprocessor. Some charities have even tougher standards. Gifts in Kind, an Alexandria, Va., nonprofit that distributes donated computers, will accept only those machines whose parts, manuals and maintenance are readily available. The charity won't accept, for instance, the Macintosh Classic, a venerable computer that sold in the millions. Thwarted in their efforts to give away their most ancient machines, some computer owners try to make the best of a bad situation. Cliff Stoll, a computer-security expert in Oakland, Calif., came up with a novel answer to the question, "What do you do with a used computer?" Mr. Stoll, who is a commentator on the cable channel MSNBC and an author, has turned a one-piece Macintosh Plus into an aquarium, hollowing out the electronics and filling the case with water and fish. As if the aquarium weren't enough, Mr. Stoll turned an old IBM PC into a litter box for his cat. While the cat became enamored of the box, "I realized that really isn't a good second life for a computer," he says. For some fanatics, giving their computers decent storage space is more fitting. "My reasoning is really very simple," says Marc Weiser, a computer scientist at Xerox's Palo Alto, Calif., research lab. "Old computers are worthless to everybody else, so even if they have a dime of value to you its a dime you wouldn't have otherwise." Mr. Weiser keeps three old computers in his garage, including one he built in 1975. "Maybe I'll show it to my kids someday. You know, like an heirloom." Other digital packrats harbor similar delusions. Kimball Brown, a market researcher in San Jose, Calif., thinks his motley collection of modems, compact-disk drives, memory chips and entire computers could be worth something someday. Even if he's wrong, he insists, he can't lose. "I have a dream that someday I'll open a computer museum," he says. But there already are computer museums, and they are pretty choosy, too. Curators want collectible computers to be in pristine condition and perhaps bear some unique mark, such as a designer's signature. "What turns out to be valuable, you can't really know," says Gwen Bell, co-founder of the Computer Museum in Boston. But "if it's not shiny and polished and isn't part of a big story, it probably isn't worth keeping." From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 2 19:02:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Video Brain Message-ID: <199707030002.AA18461@world.std.com> > From: ccm@sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) > This is a case of two computers and one name. > > The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the earl > 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 7 > intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monit > > Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. Sure you not confusing the Superbrain, a CP/M machine with the Video Brain a F8 based game? Allison From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 19:09:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199707021314.AA12389@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > I'd be loath to point out that one of the more common houseflys in > computer terms is the PDP-8. While not large or fast they are common > still running CNC machines that were built over 20 years ago. I come > from a time when home computerists lusted for one of these. Granted > the 80xx was still TBD! ;-) Home computerists STILL lust for these! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jul 2 19:45:59 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970703104559.00987d20@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:34 AM 7/2/97 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic >systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the >very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? If it's the one I remember playing with so many years ago imagine this. Take one "Classic" Mac case. Make another slot for a second floppy drive. Insert 64K of memory and an 8085 (could be a Z80). Sell lots (or, as I suspect from only ever having seen one) sell not many at all, but confuse lots of poor Mac users! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 19:47:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Old Tandys In-Reply-To: <199707021730.KAA24322@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Tandy has an 800 number -- (800) THE-SHACK (You musk key in the final > "K"...it won't work without it). Just for the record, not true. THE-SHACK translates into 843-7422. Unless they have strange switching equipment in your local CO that forces you to honor every letter of a vanity number, you don't have to dial the 'K'. You probably misdialed or something one day. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 19:53:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970702123546.00988a10@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ken Marshall wrote: > I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is > moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white > and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 > connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit with Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic external PC-compat drive. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jul 2 20:25:55 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: northstar advantage/cordata Message-ID: <970702212554_1892932989@emout09.mail.aol.com> i posted a note locally about ti99 goodies and someone emailed me back with an offer for a northstar advantage and a cordata. i need info on what these are and if they're worth getting. david From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 2 21:30:28 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:47 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jul 2, 97 05:53:12 pm Message-ID: <9707030130.AA00122@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 560 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/30cc6652/attachment.ksh From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 20:35:19 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and > its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since > I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this > one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives > used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic > external PC-compat drive. IBM's own external drives used a DB37 connector. If it belongs to a PC, I'm guessing it is for use with one specific vendor's machine. It is -possible- that it could belong to an Amiga. AFAIR, the Amiga's external floppy port is DB25 (mine's not in front of me at the moment), but the A1010 external 3.5" floppy I have gets power from the computer. I don't count myself an expert on external floppy drives, though. ok -r From ccm at sentex.net Wed Jul 2 20:47:00 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Video Brain Message-ID: <199707030147.VAA12205@granite.sentex.net> Yep, you're absolutely correct. I messed up, again. Sorry. Thanks for the gentle correction. Kevin >> From: ccm@sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) >> This is a case of two computers and one name. >> >> The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the earl >> 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 7 >> intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monit >> >> Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. > >Sure you not confusing the Superbrain, a CP/M machine with the Video >Brain a F8 based game? > >Allison > > > From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 22:22:14 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Archive Message-ID: Hi all. OK - here's the scoop so far on the Archival of classic computer stuff. Please give your input so that we can get the standards settled. The UW has graciously given me permission to attach a personal server to the network full time for ClassicCmp, so the underwork for the project is pretty well taken care of. I have a system that I'm working on setting up for the job - it will be a 486/66 with 32 MB of RAM and 3 GB of disk space. I am currently planning to set it up with linux. As you all know I am terribly slow about getting things done so it will probably be a couple weeks before it goes online. In the meantime we will continue to use the current FTP site which has plenty of space available. The particulars for how things will be stored are listed below for your review. Remember that the primary purpose of the archive is to store these items so that _someone_ can access them and make them available. It's probably not possible to always find a format that everyone can use, but if the data is here you can be pretty sure that you will be able to get it one way or another. System Software System software will be stored in a variety of formats. The preferred format will be disk images for those machines for which the means to create such an image has been developed. Examples are the Apple II/III (.dsk, .do, .po files) and C64 (.dsk files). The alternate format will be disk images created with a Central Point Option Board [1] which will read almost any 5.25" or 3.5" diskette. Those with such a board will be able to simply download and use the images. Those without will need to arrange to get a copy through regular mail. It's not a perfect solution but I can't come up with anything better. This will not cover 8" disks and I don't know how to deal with them as yet. General Software Non-booting software will be stored in the preferred compressed archival format for each machine (GZip where available). Firmware (ROMS, PROMS, PALS(?), etc...) I still don't know what a standard format for this should be. Anything which can be dumped to a file I'm willing to go with. My (limited) gizmo calls the format that it dumps to my PC "RAW". I assume that this is just the contents bit-for-bit. If anyone can read/write in raw format I'd recommend going with that. Documentation/Books/Magazines Text: Text should be presented in plain text, RTF, or PostScript. I will convernt submis- sions to conform to all three formats. Line Drawings: Should be formatted in either TIFF or PostScript format. Images: Should be formatted as either JPEG or PNG (Portable Network Graphic). I will convert PNG to JPEG on submission. Tag Files Each item will require a tag file to cover it's identification. This file is currently DS-form.txt located in the docs directory on the FTP site. It is probably not yet specific enough on the technical details - I will need recommendations on what to add. It does cover all the legal issues I wanted to address. Retrieving Files These files will be made available by FTP. Most will be easily downloadable by anyone. Some (Firmware, System Software) will be more difficult and will require physical assistance. I will generally be willing to create and mail disks for those who need them and can provide the media. I am poorly equipped to take care of firmware. Those without the neccesary gizmos will need to rely on the kindness of the group. [1] The Central Point Option Board is a device for an ISA bus PC that will read almost any standard floppy. They are still fairly commonly available for $20 or so. Bill Whitson From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 2 22:57:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: northstar advantage/cordata In-Reply-To: <970702212554_1892932989@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970702205709.006f3e14@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:25 PM 7/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >i posted a note locally about ti99 goodies and someone emailed me back with >an offer for a northstar advantage and a cordata. i need info on what these >are and if they're worth getting. Well... Don't know about the "cordata", but a NorthStar Advantage is a Z-80 based CP/M / NS-Dos system with built-in keyboard and display, and two floppies or a floppy and hard disk. I've got one in the collection, but have not got a picture onto my web page as yet. A fairly neat unit... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 2 23:58:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Archive In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jul 2, 97 08:22:14 pm Message-ID: <9707030358.AA23297@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 603 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/ff2b94b9/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 2 22:58:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <9707030130.AA00122@alph02.triumf.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970702205801.006f5d5c@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:30 PM 7/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >> Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and >> its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since >> I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this >> one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives >> used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic >> external PC-compat drive. > >I thought the later Apple ][ external drives used a 19-pin D. The Apple 'Duo-Disk' units used the 'D' connector... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 3 00:04:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970702205801.006f5d5c@agora.rdrop.com> from "Jim Willing" at Jul 2, 97 08:58:01 pm Message-ID: <9707030404.AA30175@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/3ca3faff/attachment.ksh From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 23:22:12 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Archive In-Reply-To: <9707030358.AA23297@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > The Central Point option board can't do 8" disks? I suppose > it's really not necessary - my Taiwanese generic floppy controller > in my PC does both single and double density 8" floppies just > fine. I bet if you tried a dozen different generic AT floppy controllers > that half of them would do single density just fine. > > Tim. > Well, let me rephrase - I assume the option board can't do 8". The option board replaces the disk controller and then accesses the disk directly which is why it can read MFM, GCR, whatever. I'm guessing that it relies on physical parameters to do this as I can't think of any other way to go about it. As far as 8" disks go right now - I can read/write to them from my pc using... uh... a software package the name of which I can't remember at the moment. The one they tell you to get in comp.os.cpm if you ask how to read cp/m floppies in your pc ;) Bill From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 00:31:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 Message-ID: I have to get this off my chest. Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. Aye. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 00:37:13 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Panasonic Handhelds Message-ID: I am posting this again to hopefully get more response. Right now we are collectively committed for 46 units of the Panasonic Hand Held Computers. I am hoping to at least double this figure. The more we want, the merrier for all. I'll include a little more information about these units. To those of you who have already submitted requests or have read this message, you can skip the rest of the message after my signature as you've seen it before. These units are a Panasonic HandHeld Computer circa 1984. They have a FORTH-like language in ROM called "SNAP". They have a built-in thermal printer. They have 8K of RAM running off a 6502 CPU. The custom-designed memory expansion tray which each comes with allows up to 10 additional 8K EPROMS along with the 3 that the HHC itself allows for. It has a 26 character by 1 line display, and its dimensions are 9" by 3.5". It has a full "qwerty" keyboard. Now please read the rest of the message for instructions on how to reserve 1, 2, 3 or more of these babies for yourself at a maximum price of $10 each. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion Subject: RE: Panasonic Handhelds PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar@crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about 10 days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. I'll get back to everyone in 10 days or so. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 3 01:07:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: northstar advantage/cordata References: <970702212554_1892932989@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33BB418D.58F0@rain.org> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > i posted a note locally about ti99 goodies and someone emailed me back with > an offer for a northstar advantage and a cordata. i need info on what these > are and if they're worth getting. Cordata took over Corona and I *think* they were located somewhere around Westlake Village, California. Both the Corona and Cordata machines that I have are all MS-DOS machines and I don't recall their ever running CP/M. When Cordata ceased operations, the service and support was taken over by a company in Los Angeles (don't recall the name, but I could probably find it if it was needed.) As with everything, the value is what someone is willing to pay. If the machine has all the documentation, I *might* go as high as $20 but that would only be because of the docs. BTW, I seem to recall that the monitor was specific to the machine so make sure the monitor comes with the machine. Without docs, I *might* be willing to take it off someones hands but only if it were in excellent condition and working. The Corona PC400 was my first MS-DOS machine. The Northstar Advantage was an integrated machine that has the terminal, processor, etc. all in one case; kind of a nice machine. It ran CP/M and came out after the Horizon. I mainly used the Horizon so don't know the details of the Advantage. The two Advantages I have were given to me and included all the documentation. With the usual "it is worth what someone will pay", the prices I have seen on similar equipment at swap meets, etc. run around $10 or so. It is worth a bit more with docs. As far as "worth getting", that depends on what type of collection you want and how much space you are willing to devote to the collection. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 01:00:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <9707030130.AA00122@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and > > its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since > > I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this > > one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives > > used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic > > external PC-compat drive. > > I thought the later Apple ][ external drives used a 19-pin D. You're most likely right. I never memorized that triviata. > External PC-compatible drives tend to have 37-pin D connectors. Hmmm...this drive is manufactured by California Access. Model CA 360-T. Serial number 360 T-000286. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 01:13:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970702205801.006f5d5c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >I thought the later Apple ][ external drives used a 19-pin D. > > The Apple 'Duo-Disk' units used the 'D' connector... And the Unidisk (basically a 'single' duo-disk) and the later but functionally and physically the same Apple 5.25 Drives. The old Disk ][s used the 14 (or whatever!) conductor ribbon cable. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marcw at lightside.com Thu Jul 3 00:15:20 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: <199707030716.AAA18073@covina.lightside.com> > I had a 1000HX (still have, I think -- it's out on loan) with internal 5 > 1/4, external 3 1/2 > If it has a 5 1/4" internal (on the right side?) then it is a 1000EX and not HX. They're similar but I forgot what the main difference was other than the drives. I don't think the EX has a setup program like the HX's SETUPHX is one. Wonder if it's possible to change settings on the EX like the HX (EEPROM). Marc From cerebral at michianatoday.com Thu Jul 3 02:31:21 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 Message-ID: <07312166801687@michianatoday.com> At 10:31 PM 7/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I have to get this off my chest. > >Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I >had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s >I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious >each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try >the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet >ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 >worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed >were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad >luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, >the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have >been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain >that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have >worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! > >There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them >on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first >C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all >of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's >got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there >must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how >unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. > >Aye. > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass As you sig says, you are a JAckass, but calling you a jackass is not fair to the jackass. seeing that this is flamebait, I have to say that I NEVER had a Commodore 64 that did not work. Now if you want to talk about shitty commodore stuff, that would have to be the C=128 keyboard. the electronics in it are fine, but the keyboard is crap. all in all however, Commodores still rule over Apples anyday, sure the wonderful apple disk was faster, but a fast disk alone dont make a machine. That is just like having a 454 supercharged big block in your garage, with nothing to put it in..... From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 2 22:34:55 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707030734.DAA05075@mail.cgocable.net> Sam, Ouch! Tugging at my eyes to clear those good naturally rantings...:) I used to fix quite few of them because I took few apart and was told by a C64 vet who repairs and resells them in early days. In C64 machines, buffers is not on Commodore's minds (saving $, yes right!) so they blow up pretty easily by idiots resulting in lots and lots of 6522 PIA ic swaps but that is not it for "dead" ones. About the black boxes PSU, most of them are potted, ack! Better snip off the power cable C64 side and wire up a new transformers that is same ratings as the orignal or bit better than that and use one regulator there, other two AC lines is used to power inside rectifers/regulators/filter capacitors and multiple fuses! You have to also open up the halves and check the voltage outputs after the regulators and fuses, capacitors inside the c64. Better C64 power bricks is not potted and is colored beige, they're easy to fix so look for them instead. The circit board is more of barebones worth of interconnected chipsets and few TTL's, not that real problem there. Fixed other C64 by replacing all 4164's, and a happy owner. There IS a powerful tool that connects all the ports, cartidge port and it takes over the C64 for diagnostics via the monitor. Sorry, they're kinda not rarity. More like coachroaches everywhere you go. I see them all the time, truly coachroaches that won't go away! (as I type this, amid Sam's wails of frustration is heard. Just imagining myself.) About the drives, they do need cleaning and greasing to operate properly, check the clocking. I fixed one because a sick crystal blew out the IC in the little sheilding box. I think they did have their own PSU inside that drive box? that was long ago. :)) The red led is controlled by cpu inside which is bit useful. Also make sure the drive rpm is right, it does have belt driven spindle. For a moment, users still use them for some reasons...You may remember that my friend burns his EEPROMs on C64 with a burner cartidge for years and says it was well worthwhile investment and paid him every time he uses it, it's already paid for long ago. (the burner can burn anything up to 27256 types) Recently, he's digging for it because this thing grew legs and got lost in his junk in order to burn a new image into EEPROM IC. That's for fixing the 2 years old Asus board branded PVI-486SP3 that lost it's rom memory for no reason. In a nutshell, check those DC voltages first. For grabled display (aka checkerboard display) at startup often points to memory fault. Also clean those edge contacts with strong alcohol, crunch socketed chips in. Also C64 used RF sheilding with fingers that contacts the IC's for heatsinking, put some fresh heatsink paste there if needed. If some ports, keyboard, serial and I/O, funny sound, seems dead, suspect 6522 PIA's Those MOS technology runs HOT like hot sunlit car seats. (g) There was at least 3 generations of PCB boards in C64 lifetime designs, the last one was fewer chipsets and one big IC, all in tiny board. Very easy to open up that shells, needs to unsolder the RF tin pan (Just tedious but easy to do in order to get at solder side if needed. When soldering work, be easy on PCB, it is not very good to heavy-handed tech.) To summarize: * Power problems - dead or flaky operation, check both inside C64 and the power brick. * blown PIA's (two of them) - C64 seems to work but certain feature(s) is/are dead. * memories - grabled or checkerboard. > > I have to get this off my chest. > > Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I > had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s > I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious > each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try > the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet > ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 > worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed > were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad > luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, > the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have Actually, the design fault because the potting held in heat output from the regulator inside and made it worse by the transformer. If you are patient, chip at potting away until you get at the regulator, replace it with bigger heatsink and find the fuse too if needed. > been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain > that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have > worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! PCB is PCB with chips and all get ruined if left out in elements. > > There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them > on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first > C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all > of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's Looks like power loss somwhere in that one and blown fuse. > got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there > must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how > unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. Remember, we are supposed to fix those historic stuff not wasting those little poor electrons that made up this letter? To add, the worst machine to work on is old Toshibas, thousands of screws and little parts, too short wires, etc and baddie of all, pitiful few hd choices especially ones that uses regular IDE hd...Mostly in early series before '91. > > Aye. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Jason D. From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jul 3 03:55:11 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970703015840.45c768f4@mail.crl.com> At 10:45 AM 7/3/97 +1000, you wrote: >Take one "Classic" Mac case. Make another slot for a second floppy drive. >Insert 64K of memory and an 8085 (could be a Z80). Sell lots (or, as I I think I might have a picture of one around somewhere (probably on my girlfriend's Mac); if I can find it, I'll put it somewhere accessible if anyone's interested in seeing it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bwit at pobox.com Wed Jul 2 14:31:38 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <01BC8777.7F9BB4A0@ppp-151-164-41-210.rcsntx.swbell.net> >Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead". Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/0b13184d/attachment.bin From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Jul 3 06:16:44 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <01BC8777.7F9BB4A0@ppp-151-164-41-210.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <33BB8A1C.522A@xlisper.mv.com> Bob Withers wrote: > > >Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran > >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. > > Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead". > > Bob I remember using a debugger called DDT under TOPS-10 on the DEC PDP-10 before there was anything called CP/M. -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jul 3 07:21:53 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers Message-ID: <970703082153_1689972112@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-03 05:38:55 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing would be very handy. >> I have access to all IBM FRU numbers, which will always tell you what you have; NNLNNNN where n=number and l=letter but that four digit number means nothing AFAIK. david From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 3 11:00:17 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: <199707030716.AAA18073@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On 03-Jul-97, marcw@lightside.com wrote: >If it has a 5 1/4" internal (on the right side?) then it is a >1000EX and not HX. >They're similar but I forgot what the main difference was other than >the drives. I don't think the EX has a setup program like the HX's >SETUPHX is one. Wonder if it's possible to change settings on the >EX like the HX (EEPROM). Other than the obvious difference in floppy size and location, the EX was strictly an XT-class machine that required the 5-1/4" boot disk to boot, as it didn't have the DOS-in-ROM of the HX. Also I could be wrong, but I don't believe it had any type of internal EEPROM setup like the HX and AT-class and above machines. Otherwise, the cases appear to be based on the same one, with just the modifications for the floppy relocation. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 3 09:14:24 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707031414.AA09100@world.std.com> > > >Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever r > > >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. > > > > Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead" > > > > Bob > > I remember using a debugger called DDT under TOPS-10 on the DEC PDP-10 > before there was anything called CP/M. I've used DDT on PDP-8s (OS8), PDP-10s and 11s before CP/m existed. However, Kildall was largely inspired by DEC OSs, hence DDT, PIP, dir, REName, TYPE to name a few. Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 3 10:56:26 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Archive In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jul 2, 97 09:22:12 pm Message-ID: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970703/42f79e86/attachment.ksh From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 3 10:09:03 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Archiving Message-ID: >>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a device for an ISA bus PC that will read almost any standard floppy. They are still fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>> I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it anymore. You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you recommend that I start looking?? ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 10:33:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: <199707030734.DAA05075@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Remember, we are supposed to fix those historic stuff not wasting > those little poor electrons that made up this letter? > To add, the worst machine to work on is old Toshibas, thousands of > screws and little parts, too short wires, etc and baddie of all, > pitiful few hd choices especially ones that uses regular IDE > hd...Mostly in early series before '91. Jason, thanks for the information. I will fix these damn things yet! Actually I wouldn't mind that any are dead because they are cheap as dirt and as plentiful as well but I have this very uncommon one...it is a C64 in a 64C case that is unlike the normal C64 case. It has the black screen syndrome and is worth fixing. The others are good for parts. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 3 11:12:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Archiving Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20564245E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I have a couple for sale/trade, but I'm afraid my valuation would be somewhat higher than that :( I'd buy several more for $20 apiece if they could be found. If you want to spend a lot of hours sifting through vendors' junk-board boxes, you can find one without software or cable for maybe $1-5, and get the software off the 'net, but I price mine in original box with software & cable at more like $50 or trade. I'd trade one for a properly constructed/tested 34-50pin CompatiCard-to-8"-drive cable, OR a CompatiCard IV to replace my CC II. Kai > ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 8:09 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Archiving > > >>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a > device for an ISA bus PC that will read > almost any standard floppy. They are still > fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>> > > I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it > anymore. > You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you > recommend that > I start looking?? > > ------------------------------------------------- > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking > From dynasoar at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 03:04:37 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Question about Sanyo Lunchbox References: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33BCAE95.2D60@mindspring.com> Has anyone got any ifo on a Sanyo lunchbox, model number MBC-675? It appears to be an 8088 based machine, but I can't get it to boot past a certain point. It brings up a screen that says: 1701 0 Hard Disks Installed ROM Bios v2.33 640kb memory/ CPU clock 4.77MHz Then it just hangs. A boot disk will not work either. Does it perhaps have some proprietary OS, or need a Sanyo boot disk? Anyone know anything about this dinasaur? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 3 16:29:30 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Extra stuff to go Message-ID: I have the following extra stuff taking up space if anyone would like any of it: 1) TRS-80 Model 4, desktop model with dual floppies and 64k RAM. works perfectly, and will include an original copy of TRSDOS 6. Asking $20 + shipping. 2) Sears SR2000 printer...dual interface IBM/Commodore 8bit. Seems to work fine though needs a new ribbon. $4 + shipping 3) Commodore Plus4/C-16 joysticks..a pair with the 8pin minidin connector. loose. unable to test. $5 + shipping 4) Atari SC1224 monitor...color monitor for the Atari-ST's. works great, though has some magic marker on the case. asking $10 + shipping I'm selling off these to make room for additional aquisitions, so if interested, please email me! Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jul 3 13:47:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, the infidel Sam Ismail wrote: > Jason, thanks for the information. I will fix these damn things yet! > Actually I wouldn't mind that any are dead because they are cheap as dirt > and as plentiful as well but I have this very uncommon one...it is a C64 > in a 64C case that is unlike the normal C64 case. It has the black > screen syndrome and is worth fixing. The others are good for parts. > > Sam Well, that uncommon 64 is just a regular 64 stuck into an aftermarket case that came out about the same time the 64C did. (So the people with the old ones could match the new peripherals, etc.) Tenex used to sell them in their "64/128 Everything catalogs" for about $25 or so and I think they were called a Kangaroo or something like that (Had a triangle or somehting on the case) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu PS I still hjave the catalogs if anyone wants pictures! ;) From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 3 13:44:21 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Extra stuff to go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33bbf2e8.9576798@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I would be interested in the TRS-80. Where are you at? I'm in CA. Ben On Fri, 04 Jul 1997 02:29:30 +0500, you wrote: %I have the following extra stuff taking up space if anyone would like any of %it: % %1) TRS-80 Model 4, desktop model with dual floppies and 64k RAM. works %perfectly, and will include an original copy of TRSDOS 6. Asking $20 + %shipping. % %2) Sears SR2000 printer...dual interface IBM/Commodore 8bit. Seems to work %fine though needs a new ribbon. $4 + shipping % %3) Commodore Plus4/C-16 joysticks..a pair with the 8pin minidin connector. %loose. unable to test. $5 + shipping % %4) Atari SC1224 monitor...color monitor for the Atari-ST's. works great, %though has some magic marker on the case. asking $10 + shipping % % I'm selling off these to make room for additional aquisitions, so if %interested, please email me! Thanks. % % Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com %-- %---------------------------------------------------------------------------- % Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers % % http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 % % From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 13:53:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > and as plentiful as well but I have this very uncommon one...it is a C64 > > in a 64C case that is unlike the normal C64 case. It has the black > > Well, that uncommon 64 is just a regular 64 stuck into an aftermarket > case that came out about the same time the 64C did. (So the people with > the old ones could match the new peripherals, etc.) Tenex used to sell > them in their "64/128 Everything catalogs" for about $25 or so and I think > they were called a Kangaroo or something like that (Had a triangle or > somehting on the case) Actually, this has no markings on it whatsoever, but I'll take your word on it. That's funny...a computer facelift. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 3 14:04:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Question about Sanyo Lunchbox References: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> <33BCAE95.2D60@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <33BBF7B2.246F@rain.org> Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > > Has anyone got any ifo on a Sanyo lunchbox, model number MBC-675? > It brings up a screen that says: > > 1701 > 0 Hard Disks Installed > ROM Bios v2.33 > 640kb memory/ CPU clock 4.77MHz > > Then it just hangs. A boot disk will not work either. I *think* it is an MS-DOS machine and the following system comments are based on that assumption. 1701 on IBM and compatibles is the number for a Hard Disk error. The first thing I would do is listen to see if the HD is actually spinning up. If not, all is not necessarily lost. In that case, I pull the HD and give it a quick spin. Not sure how to describe it easily in words but the idea is that the casing is rotated quickly enough around the platter axis to get the disk to turn slightly. If sticktion is the problem, that will sometimes get it going again until the unit is shut off. I don't recommend beating on the HD although I have heard people say it works for them in cases of stiction. If the HD is spinning up, how long are you waiting after the machine "hangs"? Sometimes there is a waiting period of a minute or more while the operating system waits for the HD to get itself ready. If you are waiting three + minutes or so, I would pull the HD controller and try again. It is possible the controller is bad or that particular BIOS will wait forever for the HD to come to life. You could also disconnect the two ribbon HD cables before pulling the board and see if that makes a difference before pulling the HD controller board. If the machine still hangs, it is possible the floppy disk or controller is bad. The fact that you got a message on the screen tends to indicate the motherboard works although it is possible some of the bus control logic chips are bad and thus, any card plugged into the bus might not work. BTW, I am making a MAJOR assumption that the machine was working at one time and nothing was changed from that time until the time you turned it on. If someone has been screwing around inside with jumpers/switch settings/etc., then you need the docs and will need to check out all settings on the board. Good luck! From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 3 17:19:29 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 References: Message-ID: <33BC2571.2642@unix.aardvarkol.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > That's funny...a computer facelift. Actually, a number of companies offered the same type of thing for the ZX-81/Timex-Sinclair 1000. It was to give the computer a real keyboard more than anything else though and the mainboard for the computer was put inside the keyboard's case. Not too hard considering the size of the ZX-81's mainboard! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From s-ware at nwu.edu Thu Jul 3 15:35:45 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Sanyo Lunchbox, 1701, Stiction, and the Frisbee Toss In-Reply-To: <33BBF7B2.246F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > 1701 on IBM and compatibles is the number for a Hard Disk error. The > first thing I would do is listen to see if the HD is actually spinning > up. If not, all is not necessarily lost. In that case, I pull the HD > and give it a quick spin. Not sure how to describe it easily in words > but the idea is that the casing is rotated quickly enough around the > platter axis to get the disk to turn slightly. If sticktion is the > problem, that will sometimes get it going again until the unit is shut > off. I don't recommend beating on the HD although I have heard people > say it works for them in cases of stiction. I've heard this technique described as the "frisbee toss", which seems like a relatively accurate description. Just remember not to let go of the drive! A certain manufacturer of brightly-colored workstations shipped quite a few machines with disks that were prone to stiction problems, and the "frisbee toss" was the accepted fix until they released a disk exerciser patch and agreed to replace the drives. When performing this operation, try to make the disk platter spin in the direction that it does in normal operation, if possible. I've had to use this technique on a few older Seagate drives (in addition to the disks in the workstations mentioned above) and have had good results. Don't put too much trust in the disk afterwards, and remember that it will probably not spin up again under its own power after it has been powered off and allowed to cool down. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Thu Jul 3 16:04:56 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers" (versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a "home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging words, too. I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives. For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI computer. In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize all the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and another could use. So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill or recyclers? My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that these machines are not useful for "household computing jobs", and by no means did I intend that this mailing list is only for the classic "home computers" with user communities, or to exclude anyone else from participating. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 3 16:44:09 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <2186@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <199707031310.GAA04318@mx5.u.washington.edu> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. > It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH > chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) > but I don't know if it jelled. 'Coconut' was certainly the code-name for the HP41 I also like the HP71B. They're very easy to find in the UK at the moment, and tend to sell for about \pounds 20.00. Forth/assembler ROMs are a lot rarer, though, but the built-in Basic is quite nice. I was very lucky - I managed to obtain all the technical docs on the HP71B, including a commented source of the ROMs. It's a very interesting machine internally. The Saturn (which is used in a lot of later HP handhelds, including the HP48 family) is a strange chip. I'd not call it 20 bit, though. Addresses (nybble addresses!) are 20 bits, most registers are 64 bits, and the ALU is (I think) 4 bits. Call it whatever size you like. > -tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 3 17:08:35 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707032208.AA09307@world.std.com> > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will The attrition may be due to limited software or simple the machines failing. Likely the users have found other platforms (older cheaper PCs) or even new ones. Also it may be more difficult to use older machine from the point and click mindset. Don't forget peer pressure "Your still using that?". > Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize al > the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was > hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies t True but some suffer deeper. The more useful and more common software is the more likely it is to be still in use. Hence the commodors/trs80s/cpm machines. A quick survey of archive sites will show the common machines based on software available. > So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read thi > List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it > even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the > abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfil > or recyclers? Depends on their needs and how important compatability is to them. I have a PC becuase I have to not because it's all that great. Some or a lot of the world is PC based and I have to be compatable with them. > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., > other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. Excuse me? not so! Many of the s100 systems had very active user groupd though they were more often segmented by OS rather than bus. > I guess I > do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for > PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like > DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply tha There are several groups for the PDP-8/10/11/vax other than decus but decus goes back to day one. What you forget is the intersil 6100 chip (pdp8! and the desktop version the DECMATE) and closed PDP-11 systems (PDT11/150 and PRO350) were sold in the same space and had very seperate communities outside of DECUS. It's not as cut and dried as your words picture it. Personal computing as adjunct to commercial computing was and is largely driven by cost, capability and software. Many amazingly poor machines did well not for the hardware but an abundance of software. Food for thought, The ti9900 chip is nearly as old as the 8080 and it was a 16bit design based on the TI990 minicomputer. Wouldn't you want that machine? FYI it was not that large (comparable to a PDP-11/20.). Yet the ti99/4a was year later...why? No support from TI, they figured you get the mini and devlope applications using the chip so support was limited. FYI, the ti9900 chip is a fairly high performance CCPU compared to the 8080! Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 3 18:17:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> from "DAVID L. ORMAND" at Jul 3, 97 02:04:56 pm Message-ID: <9707032217.AA06315@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970703/b19fa56a/attachment.ksh From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 3 18:50:01 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: <33BC3AA9.101A@Brighton-UK.com> DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > > Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers" > (versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a > "home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about > putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging > words, too. I certainly did not mean to imply that > these machines are not useful for "household computing jobs", and by no > means did I intend that this mailing list is only for the classic "home > computers" with user communities, or to exclude anyone else from > participating. Now here is somebody who knows how to use his head and can see clearly without the fog of partiality in front of his eyes. Well done David. I wholeheartedly share your views and welcome reasoning (as opposed to rubbishing or distorting other people views) Thank you enrico > > -- > ********************************************** > * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * > * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * > **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From djenner at halcyon.com Thu Jul 3 18:30:01 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Archiving References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20564245E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33BC35F9.C7F986A3@halcyon.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote about Central Point Option Board: > > If you want to spend a lot of hours sifting through vendors' junk-board > boxes, you can find one without software or cable for maybe $1-5, and > get the software off the 'net, but I price mine in original box with > software & cable at more like $50 or trade. > Kai, Where's the software? I have a board, but maybe not the most recent software. Dave From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 3 20:23:27 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems ROM BIOS References: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> <33BCAE95.2D60@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <33BC508F.53DA@rain.org> I have a portable Zenith Data Systems computer, Model # ZFA-121-52 and Serial Number 508EE0351. It looks like pictures of a Z160 but I don't see that ID anywhere on the machine. Unfortunately, the BIOS has been removed and having one in place will most likely help the performance of the machine a lot :). If anyone has one of these machines, I would appreciate it if you could send me a binary image of the two BIOS chips. I don't know what is available in the CP/M world but there is a utility called HACKROM in the MS-DOS world that will make a copy of the BIOS chip(s) and store it on disk. I have used it and it has saved me a LOT of trouble in the past when I had a machine with a BIOS that would go bad as soon as it warmed up. Got a listing while the machine was still cold, blew another set of BIOS chips, and I was back in business! Since this is an MS-DOS machine, it will probably work to get a good copy of the BIOS. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 4 00:36:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers" > (versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a > "home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about > putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging > words, too. I wouldn't necessarily call it a fight. More like a debate. > For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have > a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home > computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was > anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. > But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if > being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program > it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most > of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of > having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the > trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user > community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI > computer. > > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will > waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in > exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a > simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing > tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. All this (and I'm not just picking on you David) is just so much techno ludditism. That's like arguing that the Model T is still a usable car and we must keep driving it to keep it viable? Why? Sure it's still usable in that you can still drive around in one, but technology moves on. If you want to keep it viable, more power to you. But don't expect people to follow suit. Most people would rather use the latest and greatest. I collect the old stuff for a number of reasons. I like to boot them up once in a while and use them, but I can't possibly make it a point of using all of them. I can see even if you have just one system that you still use all the time (I used my Apple //e up until about 1992) but there comes a point where you have to just move on, for some at least (me). > So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this > List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it > even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the > abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill > or recyclers? Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar peecee games? > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I Oh hardly! I hope you're only referring to the fact that you wouldn't buy mainframes and mini's in Kmart, but there certainly were communities of users around these machines. Those old behemoths are as loved by older generations of programmers as your Ataris, TIs and Commodore's are. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 4 01:16:01 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 1980s Laser 50 computer??? Message-ID: Greetings: I am wondering if any of you out there could help me out. I am looking to acquire an old educational computer that I had years ago called the Laser 50 personal computer. What it was is an old educational computer (for kids basically) produced by V-Tech, or Video Technologies, Ltd. around the mid 1980s. This machine was the size of a regular laptop computer and allowed small BASIC programs to be saved internally, and also had built in educational software, calculator, etc. The manual I still have for it says an additional cassette recorder could be purchased to save programs on, as well as printers, and a 16k expansion unit. Please let me know if you might have any information on this computer.... I would really like to find one for my kids. I am also looking to find the address for the manufacturer. I know V Tech still makes computer-like educational machines for youngsters today. I would appreciate your help. Thanks in advance, CORD COSLOR PO Box 308 Peru, NE 68421-0308 (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu From pcoad at crl.com Fri Jul 4 01:41:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > > > For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have > > a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home > > computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was > > anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. > > But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if > > being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program > > it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most > > of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of > > having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the > > trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user > > community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI > > computer. > > > > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will > > waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in > > exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a > > simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing > > tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. > > All this (and I'm not just picking on you David) is just so much > techno ludditism. That's like arguing that the Model T is still a usable > car and we must keep driving it to keep it viable? Why? Sure it's still > usable in that you can still drive around in one, but technology moves > on. If you want to keep it viable, more power to you. But don't expect > people to follow suit. Most people would rather use the latest and greatest. > Any community based on unsupported technology will eventually shrink to a few hardcores. Attracting new people will be difficult at best. Old people will drop out, occasionally a new one will be bitten by the bug. Use your TI because it is useful to you. Write new applications because it makes you happy and impresses the other hardcores. You may not be able to attract many new members, but you can support the ones who are are already there. You said above that one of the reasons for using TIs is because there are others doing the same. If you want to sustain the TI community, give it a reason to exist. Start a collaborative project, publish a newsletter about TIs crosspost to a.f.c, be visible in the TI newsgroup. > I collect the old stuff for a number of reasons. I like to boot them up > once in a while and use them, but I can't possibly make it a point of > using all of them. > As a broad collector it is difficult to use all of your machines. Just collecting a wide range of machines sucks up huge amounts of time. Some people are a little more focused and actually collect partly to use the machines. > I can see even if you have just one system that you still use all the > time (I used my Apple //e up until about 1992) but there comes a point > where you have to just move on, for some at least (me). > Just because one buys a new machine does not mean that one is moving on. It is possible to use several machines for different purposes. Sam, you haven't really moved on completely. You still have your Apple. You still fire it up once in a while. You may not feel responsible for keeping the Apple II flame alive, but by using, answering questions, and by reminiscing about it you help stretch the useful life of the machines. > > So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this > > List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it > > even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the > > abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill > > or recyclers? > > Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy > writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar > peecee games? I'll agree with Sam on part of this. You may not be able to attract new users, but you can help sustain those who are already using the machines. You can also try to find those who have used the machines in the past and might be attracted to using them again if it seems like there are others around for support. You may even find a few others who are are using TIs and thought they were the last one. Not everything everyone does is to make money. Some of us do things because they are fun, help others, kill time, impress women (or men), etc. Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can be writing million dollar peecee games? Keep the flame, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From ursa at idir.net Fri Jul 4 08:30:15 1997 From: ursa at idir.net (ursa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 In-Reply-To: <199707020702.AAA20008@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: *** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: CLASSICCMP Digest 101 *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:27:36 +0000 *:From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu *:Subject: Re: Strange Tandy 1000HX *:Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789@mail.cgocable.net> *:MIME-Version: 1.0 *:Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII *:Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT *: *:Jeff, *: *:> I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't *:> handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy *:> drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out *:> behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. *:Why not check out the external 5.25" internals? Point is, can use *:those easier to obtain 1.44mb drives and use them as 720k in old XT's *:in place of harder to find 720k drives. I did that just like that *:in one of those IBM XT using its original controller and a brand new *:20 bux 1.44 in PC that allowed me to fire it up with my 720k Dos 5.0 *:and install it to hd also allows user to interchange data with newer *:pcs easily. 360k was 40 tracks by 9 sectors, 720k used 80 tracks but *:the older controller controlled this drives no problem therefore *:any newer 1.44 will work as a 720k duty. In fact, 1.44 and 720k *:drives only differs in minor ways: higher frequency heads, extra *:sensor put in to support the 18 sectors. *: *:BIG snap! *: *:> Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I *:> believe. One needs the *:> PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two *:> additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about *:> the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into *:> one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the *:> drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power *:> through the ribbon cable. *:Thanks for correction and oddball mHz? Most clones uses 8mHz. *:If you could look in external drive, it might have adapter wirings *:that will allow you to make new cables adapters for that "1.44" as *:720k drives to put in your HX machine. *:--- *: *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:23:38 -0700 (PDT) *:From: Bill Whitson *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu *:Subject: FAQ Bonanza *:Message-ID: *:Mime-Version: 1.0 *:Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII *: *:============================================================================= *: DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW *: YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE *: THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF *:============================================================================= *:ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List *:Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy *:Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 *:Last Update: 7/01/97 *:----------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available *:answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is *:Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- *:mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, *:in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- *:ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible *:and often failed ;). *: *:This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented *:deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. *: *:If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please *:contact me at the address above. *: *:A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. *:washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the *:directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. *:---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:Updates: New Sections: 2.1, 3.1 *:----------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:1. Mailing Lists *:---------------- *:1.1 Mailing List Basics *:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot *: How to set to Digest *: How to Subscribe *: How to Unsubscribe *: *:2. FTP *:------ *:2.1 FTP Basics *: *:3. World Wide Web *:----------------- *:3.1 WWW Basics *: *:============================================================================= *:1.1 Mailing List Basics *: *:A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it *:to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the *:distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message *:to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it *:to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). *:If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution *:list. *: *:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot *: *:There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To *:send a command to the list processor, write a message to *: listproc@u.washington.edu *:(Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of *:the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following *:commands, then send the message. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK *: *: Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you *: write to the list. This is the default. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK *: *: Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages *: you write to the list. I don't recommend this. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST *: *: Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages *: rather than each as it is posted. With this option *: you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep *: a nice, tidy in-box. *: *:SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address *: *: Subscribes you to the list. *: *:UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address *: *: Removes you from the list. *: *:[][][][][][][][][][] *: *:2.1 FTP Basics *: *:FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. *:You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The *:commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general *:you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a *:program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file *:is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually *:termed PUT. *: *:Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the *:ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.27. *: *:You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an *:anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked *:for a password enter your internet e-mail address. *: *:[][][][][][][][][][] *: *:3.1 WWW Basics *: *:The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells *:and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to *:know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is *:all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest *:Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. *: *:The ClassicCmp site is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html. *:--- *:Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:36:55 -0500 *:From: Allen Underdown *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu *:Subject: Re: Flex for 6809/6800 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *:Message-ID: <33B9E8F7.7C5A@valuenet.net> *:MIME-Version: 1.0 *:Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii *:Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *: *:Benedict Chong wrote: *:> Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? *:> There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to *:> let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. *:> *:> Ben *: *:Don't worry, I have several copys... *:-- *:| Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | *:| Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | *:| homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | *:| http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | *: *:--- From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 4 10:14:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 References: Message-ID: <33BD134A.5390@rain.org> ursa wrote: > > *** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > CLASSICCMP Digest 101 > > *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:27:36 +0000 > *:From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > *:Subject: Re: Strange Tandy 1000HX > *:Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789@mail.cgocable.net> > *:MIME-Version: 1.0 > *:Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What is the point of just recopying this message??? One of my pet grips is people who waste bandwidth by copying messages and adding either nothing or just one liners. From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 4 11:03:03 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:48 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 In-Reply-To: <33BD134A.5390@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > ursa wrote: > > > > *** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > CLASSICCMP Digest 101 > > > > What is the point of just recopying this message??? One of my pet grips > is people who waste bandwidth by copying messages and adding either > nothing or just one liners. Now Marvin. Are you going to tell me you have NEVER accidently hit reply and then hit send instead of cancel 8-) Don't scare them shitless! Every body does a booboo once in a while. Let them recover and maybe we will get the message they were planning on sending. I don't think there is a way to cancel a email like in the news. So ya I have done this. I am quick enough tho to immdiately send ANOTHER waste of bandwidth with a "Oops - sorry about that" message. It least everyone knows I know I messed up 8-) BC From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 4 12:08:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 References: Message-ID: <33BD2DFF.2A51@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > Now Marvin. Are you going to tell me you have NEVER accidently hit reply > and then hit send instead of cancel 8-) Don't scare them shitless! Every > body does a booboo once in a while. Let them recover and maybe we will get > the message they were planning on sending. > Nope, never have (and that can probably be chalked up to just plain luck!) I guess the point was that I am seeing a lot of messages with few comments along with too much quoting, and that is just a waste bandwidth as well as our time. And of course, I am not referring to accidents as you describe and I should have explicitly stated that! Thanks for pointing that one out. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 4 12:36:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy > > writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar > > peecee games? > > Not everything everyone does is to make money. Some of us do things > because they are fun, help others, kill time, impress women (or men), etc. > Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can > be writing million dollar peecee games? Of course it's done for fun, but don't expect anyone to come around and start developing software for a dead platform just so others can have fun. The developers still need to eat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 4 12:54:02 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970704105758.65bf68c6@mail.crl.com> At 03:19 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >> That's funny...a computer facelift. > > Actually, a number of companies offered the same type of thing for the >ZX-81/Timex-Sinclair 1000. It was to give the computer a real keyboard And the Atari ST -- to put it in a tower case, among other things. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 4 12:54:05 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> At 02:04 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of >having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the >trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user >community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI [...] >exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a >simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing >tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. [...] >hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to >attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern >applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and I am facing a similar situation in the Atari community. I have to admit that I gave away my 600XL in favor of the ST long before the thought of collecting computers ever hit me. Similarly, my ST's and Falcons are pretty much dedicated to studio stuff (and I don't get to "play" with that much these days) and I use my windows laptop almost exclusively (6-16hrs/day). Nonetheless, I am president of ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society, and probably will continue to be for a long time. Atarians are somewhat lucky in that there is a reasonably strong vendor market, good user groups, and wonderful emulation options. Still, ABACUS has been experiencing a seriously declining membership recently as people traded in their ST's for PC's. We talked about it, and decided that what even the PC people didn't want to lose was the "family" we had built up in the club. There are lots of PC user groups, but none with the character of ABACUS. (How many clubs have a Land Rover owner, a waffle collector, and a 76 year old newsletter editor?) So we changed a bit to meet the new focus of the club members. We now have a "PC SIG" and demo PC software and hardware at the meetings, along with ST stuff. We feature general interest (computer) articles in the newsletter (such as my never-ending part 2 of my 3 part series on building web pages) as well as humour and general commentary. We continue to support the ST/Falcon folks as we expand to service the new interests of members. This lets members move on to newer things (graphical web browsers (yes, we know about STiK/CAB, but it's not netscape), CD-ROM's, etc.) while still keeping the ST alive. But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ around here!) The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) They can buy a PC at Circuit City and half their neighbors will be able to set it up for them or answer questions. (Etc.) Not so with machines not quite so mainstream. But if user groups made the effort to become known and to support these computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living room is loaded with older Macs -- until school starts again.) Anyway, sorry to blather on so long, but I think that "obsolete" computers are still useable, valuable, and beneficial. So lets talk about turning people on to them! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Fri Jul 4 13:10:42 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: A good 3rd of July In-Reply-To: <970703082153_1689972112@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199707041810.AA21044@interlock.ans.net> Generally I do not get to gloat much, so here goes... Yesterday was a good day for me in the computer ju...collecting field, as I picked up several goodies: 1) "Stack-o-VAX" - Actually, a VAXstation 2000 (in the larger brick), along with two expansion bricks. All three boxes contain RD54s, and are in very nice shape. I did not get a tube or keyboard, but that should be no problem. 2) Apollo 10000 - While not a classic just yet (wait two years), it is the last Apollo made before HP took over the line. It appears to have quite a lot of horsepower (two BIT floating point chips) and a nice looking graphics card (1280x1024 40 bit, with coprocessors). It is, um, a bit beat up and shows a little corrosion, but the boards seem OK (still covered with small dust rats). I will need drives, as this machine was formerly used by the government. 3) PDP-11/23 - Normally not special, but this one is NEW. It has not been powered up since it left the factory (a sticker over the power sockets is still holding on, and the bag of nut clips is still tiewrapped to the back of the unit). It is in perfect shape, except (getting angry now), a big chip in the front paint, formerly covered with an government sticker. Splatter coat paint jobs are easy to mend, luckily. By the way, lets drop the bickering about definitions and such, and get back to geeky tech talk. William Donzelli william@ans.net From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 4 15:30:40 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33bf5a54.3419188@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:54:05 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: % %The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to %work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) %They can buy a PC at Circuit City and half their neighbors will be able to %set it up for them or answer questions. (Etc.) Not so with machines not %quite so mainstream. % %But if user groups made the effort to become known and to support these %computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or %youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use %them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living %room is loaded with older Macs -- until school starts again.) % %Anyway, sorry to blather on so long, but I think that "obsolete" computers %are still useable, valuable, and beneficial. So lets talk about turning %people on to them! Personally, I don't think a lot of people will want to use older machines. Let's put it that way(perhaps speaking for myself): some of us are spoiled by multi-megabyte operating systems and programs we are familiar with. When I switched from the Atari ST to a 286 PC, I thought that Norton Commander sucks. Now, when I run Linux, I run Midnight Commander, an NC clone. When I turn on a 3B1 (aka Unix PC), I am lost because I cannot see all the files at once. However, as a nostalgia freak, I think that a user group like Abacus can do a lot of good for the future. One of the best things Abacus can do, is to get as much of the source code and rights to the source code as possible. I'm talking about source code to TOS (Tramiel's OS) in the ST and even the firmware in the 8-bit Ataris (I have an 800XL). There's a CP/M cdrom out now, and I think some people were talking about trying to compile all the CP/M source code they have and give it to Caldera so that the latter can do a general CP/M source code release a la OpenDOS. I think the Sinclair Spectrum people have managed to get at least one of the games companies to release its old Spectrum software to the public domain (or at least for public and free distribution). Abacus and other Atari user groups may want to work towards this aim, so that the day all the hardware die, we will still have software to run on the emulators. The other thing is to collect as much technical information on the machines as possible eg. hardware pin outs, the different video circuitry etc. Possibly even the original design plans of the integrated circuits. This is so that at least some of us can continue to maintain the hardware or even do some hardware hacking. Ben From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Fri Jul 4 17:50:25 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Filling in the holes...] Message-ID: <33BD7E31.5C04@Brighton-UK.com> -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "e.tedeschi" Subject: Re: Filling in the holes... Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 22:46:38 +0000 Size: 1982 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970704/918614f0/attachment.mht From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jul 4 18:29:31 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <23293104007917@michianatoday.com> >Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can >be writing million dollar peecee games. I know you can get some classic stuff for free, but unfortunatly, as with every hobby we love, it costs money. and here is an interesting idea- to beat microsnuff, write as many competeing programs that work BETTER than billy's ( not hard to do), and sell them. and with that cash, you can get more machines! and remember, billy also writes MAC software, that for some reason are worse than you can get for IBM... so we support IBM and MAC, as well as your favorite classic, the more platforms supported, the better it is for everyone! :) From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 4 18:48:08 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Filling in the holes...] In-Reply-To: <33BD7E31.5C04@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: Enrico: As I discussed in private e-mail... I suggest you quit using such a synical approach to e-mail and this list's correspondance. I have done everything on my end of the deal. You send me an MSX, and I send you a Model 1 keyboard/cpu. Have you mailed me the MSX yet? I seriously doubt it. Oh, by the way, Enrico, you haven't even sent me your mailing address... I did a long time ago. The only reason I haven't mailing out the Model 1 yet, is because I have been out of town for well over a week, and it has been physically impossible. It is packaged up, and ready to go. But here in the USA, we have Independence Day on July 4th... and our post offices are closed today. It WILL be sent out ASAP. I hope that you pass up on calling others uneducated on this list, as you did me, Enrico. You don't seem to have a clue as to etiquette around here, and I doubt others will continue to take kindly to it. So, in closing, Enrico, I would appreciate you looking at the actual facts when dealing with others from now on... it sure will help you out. Best Wishes, CORD COSLOR p.s. I don't work for an educational institution as you claimed, either. Now, who is educated? //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > From william at ans.net Fri Jul 4 19:06:23 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers In-Reply-To: <970703082153_1689972112@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199707050006.AA29865@interlock.ans.net> > << Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part > numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a > little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing > would be very handy. > >> > I have access to all IBM FRU numbers, which will always tell you what you > have; NNLNNNN where n=number and l=letter but that four digit number means > nothing AFAIK. The FRUs look to be somewhat organized, probably in a typical megacomplicated IBM fashion. What I am looking for is a directory of the numbers the customers see on the outside of their machines - 5150 on an PC/XT, 7015 on an RS/6000, 8228 on a Token Ring thing, etc. For example, I just saw an 3089 - a big blue box that could easily crush a Volkswagen. What is it? I have my guesses (3081 or 3090 dofunny attachment). William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 4 19:22:17 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2220@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> [...] > I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives. Aha... That makes a lot more sense, and I hope I can make some useful comments. > > For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have > a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home > computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was > anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. > But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if > being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program > it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most > of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of > having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the > trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user > community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI > computer. > > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will > waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in > exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a > simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing > tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. I hate to say this here, but I would _not_ recomend a classic computer (any classic computer) as the only system for a non-computer-literate user. IMHO such a user will quickly become disapointed when they find that the things that _they_ can do with the machine are somewhat limited, and that nothing from the local computer store will be of any use to them. I can have advanced video on one of my older machines because I am prepared to write drivers, solder up interfaces, read technical manuals, patch existing programs, etc. OK, I enjoy it. But to suggest that a PERQ 2 driving an I2S image processor and a homebrew GPIB -SCSI interface would be a good machine for the average home user to view his photo-CDs on would be nothing short of insane. Yes, it _could_ be done, but for such a user, a normal, boring, PC-clone would be much more suitable. Even I don't use a classic machine (or at least, what _I_ consider classic) all the time. Earlier this week I needed to write some letters. I could have used a classic-PERQ and printed the results on a Versatec V80. I could have used the paper tape editor on my PDP8/e to punch a tape containing the correct postscript commands and then printed it to my laserprinter using a serial-interfaces paper tape reader. In fact I used something non-classic - a much hacked PC/AT running Linux. I used LaTeX to format the text, and then printed it on said (fairly modern) laserprinter. There are plenty of other things that would have been just as good, but that's the one I chose. The people who (IMHO) we should be trying to attract to classic computers -- and in fact the ones I've had some success in attracting -- are those who are already computer literate to some extent. People who already can write simple programs and want to understand exactly how a system operates. I think it's a lot easier to understand many classic computers (minis and micros) than modern PCs, and the educational value of such machines should not be overlooked. There are (IMHO) at least 4 different types of tasks that can be done with computers : 1) A standard application for which software (commercial, GPL'd, freeware, shareware, whatever) already exists. In which case you pick whatever machine the software runs on. If it runs on more than one system, you choose between them using whatever criteria matter _to you_ (hence me picking a classic computer for its better documentation over a modern PC since both can carry out the tasks I want to do) 2) An existing embedded system. Although it's possible (and sometimes common) to 'modernise', say, a control system based on a minicomputer, there are still a lot of PDP8's and PDP11's running machinery, etc. Provided the old machine works reliably and support/spares are available, it's fine to keep on using it. 3) A new 'embedded' system. Although my example of the I2C chip tester was, I agree, slightly contrived, I was simply pointing out that if you are making a single-purpose machine _for youself (so you can maintain it)_ there's no reason not to use a classic. There's probably no reason not to use something modern either. 4) Education. This includes 'writing programs for fun', understanding how computers (hardware and software) works, etc. This is IMHO the main use of classic computers to the average person these days, and the way we'll attract more people into the hobby. I've said before that you can learn more about processor operation by spending a couple of days with a minicomputer CPU, the schematics for it and a 'scope than by sitting through most lecture courses on the subject. And, I can fully understand the joy that comes from getting a computer to do something that is widely claimed to be 'impossible'. When the CoCo was current, it was normally claimed that you couldn't have PMODE 4 graphics and Semigraphics 4 blocks on the screen at once. I did it, and totally amazed the staff in the local Tandy store. Since it's easy to do most things on a fast PC (you don't really have to save every last cycle, etc), it's more of a challenge to do them on an old home micro. Again, we may be able to attract people because of that. It may be worth looking at how (say) classic car clubs keep their membership. They may well have similar problems - why would you drive (say) a pre-war car when you could have a modern one. Rationally it probably makes very little sense... > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I I will have to disagree with you there. The larger machines that I am involved with have very active user comunities who offer a lot of help and support to newcomers. To give a couple of examples : PERQ : When I was trying to add a printer to my PERQ, I had a few questions. The result was that other owners dismantled their own machines, 'buzzed out' cables, e-mailed me wirelists, and talked me through the whole thing. That's not an isolated incident - a person who was having monitor problems got other owners to pull the covers off their monitors and measure voltages, etc. This is just about the only machine where this level of support still occurs over 10 years after the entire line was discontinued. PDP11. The user community here is split (IMHO) into the professional users who need to keep the machine running, and who can afford DEC diagnostics, replacement boards, etc, and the home hackers who debug everything with a logic probe and printset, rebuild modules and even repair dead fans. I am certainly in the latter category here. But again, questions get answered. People will dig out manuals for obscure hardware and look up pinouts and jumper settings. Newcomers will get answers to introductory questions. BTW, I'm not flaming the support that other user communities give. I'm sure it's excellent, but I've never experienced it, since I don't (in the main) use those machines. > do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for > PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like > DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that The UK chapter of DECUS is pretty useless for home hackers. I am told that other chapters are a lot better in this respect. > * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 4 20:07:43 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2223@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> [...] > As a broad collector it is difficult to use all of your machines. Just > collecting a wide range of machines sucks up huge amounts of time. Some > people are a little more focused and actually collect partly to use > the machines. I collect machines for a lot of different reasons : a) I want to use them (for whatever purpose). The PDP's, PERQ, and some of the CP/M machines come in here. They have interesting features, and are plain fun to program (elegant instruction set, nice bus for homebrew hardware, etc). b) I got them because they're historically important. I may not care for the Apple ][ hardware design, but it is an extremely important computer historically. I don't tend to use this class of machine too much. c) I got them because if I hadn't they'd have been lost for ever. Either "We're throwing out this , do you want it" or buying a machine that would otherwise have gone as scrap metal. These machines get restored, and (often) then end up in group (a)! > Not everything everyone does is to make money. Some of us do things > because they are fun, help others, kill time, impress women (or men), etc. Quite a lot of people need something to occupy their mind in their spare time. Some people do crossword puzzles. I prefer to figure out how some strange machine really operates. It's probably about as useful :-) (NO FLAMES!). Seriously, while solving crossword puzzles must improve your vocabulary, battling through a schematic or ROM source does improve your computer and electronics knowledge - something that is useful to me. And it's fun :-) > --pec From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 4 20:24:15 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) Message-ID: <2224@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > I am facing a similar situation in the Atari community. I have to admit The HP calculator community (just about the only main-ish-stream one that I am involved with) has much the same problem. People tend not to join user groups, alas, any more. They expect to buy pre-packaged solutions, and if they don't work they expect the manufacturer to fix it. The idea of experimenting, of going a little further, seems to have died out. [...] > had built up in the club. There are lots of PC user groups, but none with > the character of ABACUS. (How many clubs have a Land Rover owner, a waffle > collector, and a 76 year old newsletter editor?) Why on earth do you need to edit a 76 year old newsletter? What's it stored on - Wheatstone Telegraph Tape? (Sorry, couldn't resist). And I guess the answer to your question is 'About as many as calculator clubs with a PERQ fanatic and a classic car enthusiast as members, and a Polish chairman' :-) > But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your > message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call > from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just > not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get > those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise > unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ > around here!) An idea. Sell them the machines cheaply, and then allow them to attend your club meetings for (say) one year free of charge. Having been involved with many user clubs, I realise that the membership money does go to good use, and that it costs a lot of money to produce and print the newsletter. But a lot of people don't see it that way. It costs nothing extra to have a few extra people at meetings, and (a) they will get support for their new toy (thus keeping it running) and (b) may find how useful the club is and will thus join. > The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to > work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) Absolutely. And for that reason, expecting a new user to start on a classic computer is (IMHO) totally unrealistic. > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad -tony From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 4 23:38:21 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Laser 50 computer Message-ID: I posted a message a day or two ago, and I wanted to thank Sam Ismail for responding. I am wondering if anyone else might have one of these Laser 50 computers available (Sam wasn't able to part with any :-( ?? Some more information on this computer. It was manufactured by V-Tech (Video technology Ltd.) in the mid 1980s. It was a small, white, lap-top size computer. It had a single line LCD display and was marketed as a childrens education or beginner's computer. You could expand this 1.5k system by buying cassette recorder, two different printers, and a memory expansion cartridge. OH, yes... you could save up to 9 different programs internally on the computer. Now I also remember it ran on batteries though you could hook up a DC converter to plug into the wall. Had a full-feature BASIC programming language built in, including sound commands... although it didn't have any graphics capabilities (that I know of) it was a fun little computer. Anyway, what I am asking is if anyone out there has one of these or knows where I might be able to find one.... PLEASE let me know. I used to have one (lost it YEARS ago) and I would like my children to be able to use it a bit... plus it's kind of a piece of my computing history that I would like to bring back to my collection! Thanks a lot, and I hope someone has an inkling obout this machine. P.S. This isn't an Apple or IBM close. Best Wishes, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From idavis at comland.com Sat Jul 5 00:35:54 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (clipped) Message-ID: <199707050535.AAA29850@ds9.comland.com> At 10:54 AM 7/4/97 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your >message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call >from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just >not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get >those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise >unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ >around here!) > Due to an accident(broken arm) with my then 5 week old daughter, about a month ago, I spent two days in the local childrens hospital. She is fine now, but at the time, my two sons ages 6 and 3 were bored to tears. On my way back to the room, I noticed a room with an old apple, and some other non computer items. I asked a nurse, and she mentioned that they would love to have some more computers for the kids to use. There were kids in there that were really sick, and I'm sure that there are times where they are bored to tears as well. My point to this whole rant, is that old "obsolete" computers with some fun software would make some happy kids who are in a really bad situation. Any spare computers I run across will be making the trip to the local childrens hospital. I would encourage anyone else who gets calls and doesn't know what to do with these extras to check out their local scene. Who knows, these kids might be able to turn out some really good software. Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the idavis@comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 5 01:55:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > But if user groups made the effort to become known and to support these > computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or > youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use > them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living > room is loaded with older Macs -- until school starts again.) Unfortunately, teachers won't use them in schools because they simply are not PCs, and the curriculum is intended to teach the kids skills which are directly applicable to the real world. Now I'm sure you could argue that at the very least these machines could be used to teach basic computer skills and programming, and I would agree with you. But the position of schools is, if it not a 386 or greater (in other words runs Windows) then they don't want it. That's why they've been slowly dumping their Apple ][s and other computers. > Anyway, sorry to blather on so long, but I think that "obsolete" computers > are still useable, valuable, and beneficial. So lets talk about turning > people on to them! Right on. At least WE can keep them alive. That's the point. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Sat Jul 5 02:14:22 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970705001456.4b07c3aa@ricochet.net> At 10:36 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >people to follow suit. Most people would rather use the latest and greatest. A lot of people would rather use the latest and greatest, but a lot more can only afford a pinto. >Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy >writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar >peecee games? But there are already TI (or other) apps out there that make the TI a very useable machine. From the user side of things, those million dollar peecee games still cost $39.95, as much as a complete TI and software sometimes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Sat Jul 5 10:40:02 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) References: Message-ID: <33BE6AD2.3039@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or > > youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use > > them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living > Unfortunately, teachers won't use them in schools because they simply are > not PCs, and the curriculum is intended to teach the kids skills which are > directly applicable to the real world. Now I'm sure you could argue that This is kind of off topic, but I have been working with several people over the past 5 years or so to put low end computers in the classroom. The main problem is the administration and their perceptions. Second, the teachers are generally not trained on how to effectively use computers in the classroom. Stepping on soapbox, effective use of computers in the classroom is NOT, repeat NOT, for teaching how to use computers, but rather to help learn other subjects. i.e. we use books in classrooms but not to learn how to use books. Stepping off soapbox. Hmmm, maybe it isn't off topic since the computers we put in the classrooms (approximately 100 or so) were mainly PC's (4.77 MHz, 5 slot, circa 1981 machines) donated by local businesses who didn't want to just junk them. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 5 11:06:19 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707051606.AA12141@world.std.com> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > 4) Education. This includes 'writing programs for fun', understanding h > computers (hardware and software) works, etc. This is IMHO the main use > classic computers to the average person these days, and the way we'll a > more people into the hobby. I've said before that you can learn more ab > processor operation by spending a couple of days with a minicomputer CP > schematics for it and a 'scope than by sitting through most lecture cou > the subject. This I consider a big item. Some of the classic machines are significant in their simplicity or usful in that you can point to identifiable elements (ram, ALU, CONTROL). I frequently use the PDP-8 design for this as it's very simple and the instruction set is about as minimal as can be and still be useful. The same can be asid for some of the 8bitters as well. Allison From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Sat Jul 5 11:59:32 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: HP71B In-Reply-To: <2186@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> from "Tony Duell" at Jul 3, 97 09:44:09 pm Message-ID: <199707051659.LAA09719@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I hope you are the Tony Duell that posted this. If you are not, please accept my apology and ignore this message. I have a HP-71 with the FORTH ROM. I am interested in getting a copy of the technical docs. Do you know of any source for them? Or, assuming no copyright infringements, would you be willing to make a copy? Another option would be for me to make a copy and return the originals to you. Do you know of any HP 42 calculators for sale? I also have one BIG favor to ask. I am trying to get a subscription to two magazines published in the UK: Elektor Electronics and Electronics and Wireless World. Could I send you the money to purchase a copy of each for me? Thanks for your time. John > > In message <199707031310.GAA04318@mx5.u.washington.edu> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. > > It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH > > chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) > > but I don't know if it jelled. > > 'Coconut' was certainly the code-name for the HP41 > > I also like the HP71B. They're very easy to find in the UK at the moment, and > tend to sell for about \pounds 20.00. Forth/assembler ROMs are a lot rarer, > though, but the built-in Basic is quite nice. > > I was very lucky - I managed to obtain all the technical docs on the HP71B, > including a commented source of the ROMs. It's a very interesting machine > internally. The Saturn (which is used in a lot of later HP handhelds, > including the HP48 family) is a strange chip. I'd not call it 20 bit, though. > Addresses (nybble addresses!) are 20 bits, most registers are 64 bits, and the > ALU is (I think) 4 bits. Call it whatever size you like. > > > > > -tony > > > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From Manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sat Jul 5 16:43:36 1997 From: Manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (Manney@nwohio.nwohio.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: HP71B Message-ID: <199707052210.PAA24577@mx3.u.washington.edu> No, I'm not Tony Duell...I'm Manney. I have the HP-41 emulator ROM, not the Assembler/FORTH ROM (the HP-41 emulator came with a different FORTH and some other stuff.) I have a lot of documentation -- assuming no copyright infringements, I'd be glad to do what I can. Tell me your needs. Since I don't live in the UK (wish I did...about 125 years ago), I can't 'elp you with the magazines...sorry. Manney 419-6630-700 From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Jul 6 09:11:26 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts In-Reply-To: <199707052210.PAA24577@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like controller cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and RLL harddrives. Any help appreciated, Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jul 6 00:45:13 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts In-Reply-To: from "dynasoar" at Jul 6, 97 09:11:26 am Message-ID: <9707060445.AA01284@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970705/4b34e2ab/attachment.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jul 6 08:28:01 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts References: <9707060445.AA01284@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33BF9D61.F4E8614D@texoma.net> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? > > I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original > > replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like > controller > > cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and > RLL > > harddrives. > > Stuff like you want isn't usually carried by the mainstream > merchandisers. (Though I'd expect you could find XT keyboards > without too much difficulty; I remember buying some keyboards at Fry's > just > last year that were switchable between XT and AT via a little slide > switch on the bottom.) You're best bet is to hit the electronic > surplus stores in your area and dig through their bins. Here > in Vancouver, there's a place called "Computer Warehouse" which > has an excellent supply of XT- and AT-era hardware, including > floppies, controller cards, and MFM drives. When I lived in LA, > All Electronics (especially their big store on Oxnard in Van Nuys) > was a good source of this stuff. University and school surplus > auctions are also a good place to find this sort of stuff. > Tell us where you are and someone > local to you may be able to point you in the right direction. > > Tim. Here in the Dallas area, there are several good surplus stores. I saw full height hard drives for $1.00 last week, XT keyboards (original IBM) are usually around $3-5.00. Also we have a computer fllea market the first Saturday of each month. I bought a mint CalComp "E" size pen plotter with over 200 pens for $100.00 yesterday at First Saturday. James From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Jul 6 08:22:15 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts Message-ID: <199707061320.IAA19363@challenge.sunflower.com> I have a pretty good inventory of these types of things, let me know exactly what you need, and I'll see if I have one. I may not have original IBM, but I can get you up. ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM XT Parts > Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 12:45 AM > > > Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? > > I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original > > replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like controller > > cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and RLL > > harddrives. > > Stuff like you want isn't usually carried by the mainstream > merchandisers. (Though I'd expect you could find XT keyboards > without too much difficulty; I remember buying some keyboards at Fry's just > last year that were switchable between XT and AT via a little slide > switch on the bottom.) You're best bet is to hit the electronic > surplus stores in your area and dig through their bins. Here > in Vancouver, there's a place called "Computer Warehouse" which > has an excellent supply of XT- and AT-era hardware, including > floppies, controller cards, and MFM drives. When I lived in LA, > All Electronics (especially their big store on Oxnard in Van Nuys) > was a good source of this stuff. University and school surplus > auctions are also a good place to find this sort of stuff. > Tell us where you are and someone > local to you may be able to point you in the right direction. > > Tim. From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Jul 6 23:13:31 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Composite output In-Reply-To: <199706261345.17802@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > ... Is it > > possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built > > in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? ... > > In general, yes you can........ > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk This sounds like a real workable solution to the problem of finding suitable displays for some of the old T.V. dependent machines. Would you be willing to give really specific directions on how to do this? Something a relative amateur with a few basic electronics skills could follow? Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Jul 6 09:53:33 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Composite output Message-ID: <199707061451.JAA22190@challenge.sunflower.com> Once I try it myself, sure. All I planned on doing was desoldering, or patching onto the input of the RF modulator, {the 1.5x2in box that you plug your tv into) to a composite RCA style connector. Hoping this will work. ---------- > From: dynasoar > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Composite output > Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 11:13 PM > > > > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > ... Is it > > > possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built > > > in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? ... > > > > In general, yes you can........ > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > This sounds like a real workable solution to the problem of finding > suitable displays for some of the old T.V. dependent machines. Would you > be willing to give really specific directions on how to do this? Something > a relative amateur with a few basic electronics skills could follow? > > Thanks, > > Kirk Scott > dynasoar@mindspring.com > From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jul 6 14:05:06 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: This Weeks Haul References: Message-ID: <33BFEC62.620788F8@texoma.net> This was the Fist Saturday Flea Market in downtown Dallas weekend: My haul: 1 Tandy M100, working with printer cable, cassette cable, and bar code reader $20.00 1 CalComp 1043 "E" size plotter with cables and 200 pens $100.00 1 USR Pilot deluxe leather case $1.00 ($49 in USR's catalog, yes I know it's not a classic, but I use the hell out of it) 1 Tandy 20m hard card for the 1000 series NIB (the guy had around 50 of the) $10.00 Passed up a NEC Model 100 look-a-like for $45 and a Kaypro 4 for $50 (you can't collect everything you would like if you live in an apartment with limited space) A good weekend shopping spree.. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 6 14:24:21 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) Message-ID: More information on the HHCs as requested. I should've included this bit with the last message. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:40:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: HHC Sam, Yes they come with power supplies (internal batteries and AC adaptors).I have very few manuals however. Mike From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 6 14:23:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) Message-ID: Here's more information that someone requested on the HHCs. I will be compiling a list of people who have requested to be in on the deal so that everyone will know that their request was received. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:39:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: HHC Hi Sam, I can include as many ROM chips as you like,the width of the printer is 40 characters and thermal paper is available.Incidentally do you know someone named BROSWELL ? He made me an offer for one of the Aim computers which I accepted and that was the last I heard from him. Regards,Mike From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jul 6 15:46:26 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jul 6, 97 12:23:41 pm Message-ID: <9707061946.AA01707@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1078 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970706/f33c11df/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 6 14:59:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Upcoming Sale References: <33BFEC62.620788F8@texoma.net> Message-ID: <33BFF90B.417D@rain.org> Picked up an NCR PC-8 (I think the number is correct) with monitor and docs for $20. I probably could have gotten it for free if I had waited a week, but then again, the whole thing probably would be spread all over the sale area and stuff could well have gotten lost! Also picked up a couple years (not complete) worth of Soft Sector Magazine from about 1984 to 1987. While I was there, I saw a Kaypro II, Commodore 128, a Spectragraphics CAD setup with several workstations, and about 40 or 50 PCs and PS/2 computers. These will be up for sale next weekend, July 12th, at the Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club Bazaar. Prices are usually excellent and get better (free) the longer they are there. The sale will run from 9AM to noon. The usual mode is prices start at excellent at 9AM, half that at 10AM, and free after about 11AM or 11:30AM. After that, the dumpster gets filled up with whatever remains. I don't know if I have room to pick up much else out there although I will pick up the Kaypro and Commodore 128 if they are going for free. Hate to see the Spectragraphics stuff dumped, but I just don't have the room for it. Shipping is probably out of the question since I would expect that to run a minimum of $100 (at least several hundred pounds.) As usual, I will pick up any docs that remain although I don't know if there are any with the system. From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 6 15:32:45 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33c500a1.826671@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: % %More information on the HHCs as requested. I should've included this bit %with the last message. % %Sam %------------------------------------------------------------------------------- %Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Sorry for the noise, but: I have been trying to email to say that I want 2 of those handhelds, but I keep getting a message saying that the email to Sam can't be delivered (to dastar@crl.com). Ben From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Jul 7 08:56:05 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) References: <33c500a1.826671@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33C0F575.201A@mindspring.com> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > % > %More information on the HHCs as requested. I should've included this > bit > %with the last message. > % > %Sam > %------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > %Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass > > Sorry for the noise, but: > > I have been trying to email to say that I want 2 of those handhelds, > but I keep getting a message saying that the email to Sam can't be > delivered (to dastar@crl.com). > > Ben Same here, I intended to be put down for two, but can't get mail through to you, Sam. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jul 6 17:28:25 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Floppy connectors (was: Re: Sony CP/M machine?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and > > its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since > > I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this > > one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives > > used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic > > external PC-compat drive. > > IBM's own external drives used a DB37 connector. If it belongs to a PC, > I'm guessing it is for use with one specific vendor's machine. I've got an external 5.25" drive for a "Laser Concept 286/16 Laptop" that uses a DB25. (I have the drive, and the manual for the computer, but not the computer.) This drive gets power from the computer. > It is -possible- that it could belong to an Amiga. AFAIR, the Amiga's > external floppy port is DB25 (mine's not in front of me at the moment), > but the A1010 external 3.5" floppy I have gets power from the computer. The Amiga floppy port is DB23, not DB25. > I don't count myself an expert on external floppy drives, though. > > ok > -r Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 6 16:11:28 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Composite output Message-ID: <2255@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <199707061451.JAA22190@challenge.sunflower.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Once I try it myself, sure. All I planned on doing was desoldering, or > patching onto the input of the RF modulator, {the 1.5x2in box that you plug > your tv into) to a composite RCA style connector. Hoping this will work. That's what I did (in most cases). The modulator typically has 3-5 connections. They are : Ground (connected to the 0v line of the computer) Power (typically +9V - +12V) Video Input (Composite - jsut what you want) Channel Select (in the US - connected to the Channel 3/Channel 4 switch) Audio Input Most modulators are standard parts, and you can get data on them (or at least a pinout. I'm unlikely to be much help here, since I'm in the UK, and our TV system is different). Anyway, you need to identify the video input. Either look at the modulator data sheet, the schematics of the computer or trace it out by hand (eliminate the ground and power pins, and look at what's left). I've just found the (USA) CoCo Technical manual. The modulator has 5 connections, including the case. It's a UM1285-8 (I suspect that this is used in other computers as well). Anyway, the connections are : Case - ground 1 (Nearest the RCA socket on the modulator) - Video Input 2 +12V power 3 Audio Input 4 Channel Select Now connect a piece of 75 Ohm video cable with the centre wire to the video input pin on the modulator and the braid to the 0V line. Connect the other end of that cable to the monitor. -tony From louiss at gate.net Sun Jul 6 20:34:12 1997 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Osborne Collectibles Message-ID: <199707070133.VAA22432@chickasaw.gate.net> OSBORNE 1 AND EXECUTIVE COLLECTIBLES Hi, I've decided to focus my collecting on Apple items. Therefore, I have some Osborne collectibles I'd like to sell. I thought I'd give this group the first shot, before going public. All items are AS IS, subject to the descriptions given. Nothing is warranted, except that the items are as represented. Prices do not include shipping from Tampa, Florida 1 Tan Case Osborne 1. Beautiful cosmetic condition. Has double-density upgrade. Startup screen displays with extra characters (zeros), and attempts to boot a disk result in boot errors..........$75 1 Osborne-103 "internal" modem with manual and software. Blue plastic, fits in pocket below left-hand disk drive. Missing ribbon jumper cable (should be simple to replace). Cosmetically excellent...$25 5 Osborne 1 "User's Reference Guides". There are a number of different versions and revisions. Original version in black plastic 3-ring binder from December,1981 with corrections(the corrections seem to pre-date the publication-I think they are misdated).......$25 Completely re-written version in black plastic 3-ring binder appears to be from around January, 1982.......$25 Blue spiral-bound version from February, 1982 in good condition..$20 Blue spiral bound version as above in fair condition with tabs added to pages...$10 Grey paper-back version that appears to have come with blue case Osbornes in very good condition....$20 1 Package of correspondence and documents from OCC including an updated section on SuperCalc (contained in the second black plastic manual), information on upgrades and software, and an introductory letter machine-signed by Adam Osborne....$10 1 MBasic manual, grey paper-back....$5 1 Osborne Field Service Manual published by Xerox for Osborne 1,1A and Executive. 245 pages in 3-ring binder plus appencices, schematics, and updates through February 1984. Very comprehensive and easy to use. Unfortunately missing first 42 pages on general Osborne 1 disassembly. However, it appears that this material was mostly the obvious things, and the comparable sections for the Executive are present. Very useful......$35 1 Osborne 1 Technical Manual by Osborne Computer, 1982. Complete photocopy of manual with schematics, appendice, etc. Approximately 250 pages. The schematics are foldouts, and photocopy may have been the original means of reproduction.......$35 2 Boxed sets of original Osborne software. Each Osborne labeled box contains the following original disks in original sleeves: CP/M System; CP/M Utility; CBasic/MBasic; SuperCalc; WordStar; Upgrade Diskette. Note that these are sold as collector's items- the data integrity is not warranted, in fact the contents of the disks are not warranted...$30 2 Double Density User's Manual with original Extended Utility Disk in original sleeve in blue plastic binder. Like new, data integrity not guaranteed.....$10 13 Original Osborne disks in Osborne sleeves. Some have user-applied labels. May or may not contain labeled software. Data integrity not guaranteed. Titles: Double Density WordStar(2); Diagnostic II Diskette One; Osborne Executive Exerciser Diskette; Executive Diagnostics(2); PC Files; CP/M System; CP/M Utility; SuperCalc; Extended Utility Disk; Single Density WordStar; Upgrade Diskette.....$3 each 1 XtraKey User Guide...$3 1 SuperGraphics 4.1. Original disk, manual and literature.....$10 1 "The Portable Companion", premiere issue, June/July 1982 published by Osborne Computer. 85 page full-color magazine, a true collectible. Color cover shows Afghan guerillas using an Osborne 1....$25 1 "A Guide to Products and Services for the Osborne Computers" by Spite Software, 1985. A 50 page guide to everything that was available... ...$10 1 Grey plastic cover from the back of an Osborne. These are often missing.. ...$5 Offers on multiple items or for everything are welcome. Please e-mail me at louiss@gate.net with any questions. Louis From louiss at gate.net Sun Jul 6 21:34:23 1997 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Osborne Collectibles Message-ID: <199707070233.WAA24338@osage.gate.net> It appears my last post may have contained at least one ambiguity. In each case where the number of available items is more than one, the price is for EACH. For example, for the 2 boxed sets of original software, the price is $30 for each box. I apologize for any confusion. On Sun, 06 Jul 97 21:34:12 -0400, Louis Schulman wrote: > > OSBORNE 1 AND EXECUTIVE COLLECTIBLES > >Hi, > >I've decided to focus my collecting on Apple items. Therefore, I have some >Osborne collectibles I'd like to sell. I thought I'd give this group the >first shot, before going public. >etc. Louis From ursa at idir.net Mon Jul 7 00:17:01 1997 From: ursa at idir.net (ursa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP Digest #101 BrainDeath In-Reply-To: <199707050702.AAA09054@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: *:On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: *: CLASSICCMP Digest 104 *: 1) Re: CLASSICCMP digest 101 *: by ursa My apologies for this fubar. Pine's auto-upload grabbed CCML #101 instead of the intended message. Or So I *Thought* ... It seems the NUL bucket wasn't quite as empty as we've been led to believe... We caught the responsible ruffian who dared dilly-dally discoursive data mustering modemic mayhem & what not, et al, ad nauseum... Please find chained below, for your drubbing pleasure, the Rogue & Hacker - Quasi Goto: .,. __., ,";~`' / `\l/ _ `O ( ' `./ <. \ I l_ ---,- ) ) ,'\ ( (--------/ /--l ,\ \ o=== \ __/ ===o o'((( I `. \ /)))`o`o```I____I ________ `o_/ ''' `o' / ,, ; \ / o' (o....' l l `o-o-o-o-o-o-o-0======o l l `o-o-o "`"'\i/~"\l/"`""` ( We know what you're thinking ... "where did we ever find such an ) ( ~attractive~ COBOL programmer?" All we can say ) ( is: "You've gotta sweep alotta dungeons before you smell the flowers.") He has been hiding in our NUL bucket (nasty habit), regurgitating when our electronic back was turned... Please throw only fresh vegetables, as he will only eat the rotten ones, sort of taking the edge off of the punishment thing... Thank you for your patience & understanding. Our barristers, Forth, Lisp, Rodney, Punch-Card, & Howl have assured us that should such happen again, certain rather uncomfortable "snips" *will* occur - and something or other concerning being eaten by a grue... RetroHexaDecimatically Yours, -=GF=- TagByPsychoTag: "Tornados are both Vortical & Harmizontal." -=GF=- (Remember you heard it here first - on Mental Roller Derby)... From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jul 7 00:53:50 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Wanted: Old Amiga Genlocker Message-ID: If anyone has any old genlockers (preferably with some software) that will work on both/either an A600 and an A1000, please e-mail me! They (my amigas) are becoming paper weights and I'd like to put them to use as video titlers atleast. Thanks, Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Mon Jul 7 01:54:51 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: I picked up a Convergent Technologies CP001/8 along with a tonne of extra bits this weekend. It is an absolutely fascinating machine, but I have no idea how to use it. /: Unfortunately, in all the extensive documentation I picked up (including numerous schematics) there is not one operator's or user's guide, although such are mentioned. The OS reference is, apparently, devoted to the mechanicals: system calls, and so on. Useful, but not at the fledgeling stage. (: If someone knows aught about this machine, I would sure love to hear what you've got to tell. I also picked up a TI 99/4A and an Apple ][plus, which I shall require some guidance with as well, as I cut my teeth on TRS-80 machines, and didn't really even get into computers until I had moved up to a 386sx.. Thanks. ok -r From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jul 7 05:41:10 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: <199707071039.FAA02527@challenge.sunflower.com> Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons that lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do make a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to find it. ---------- > From: Ray Stricklin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies > Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 1:54 AM > > > I picked up a Convergent Technologies CP001/8 along with a tonne of > extra bits this weekend. It is an absolutely fascinating machine, but I > have no idea how to use it. /: > > Unfortunately, in all the extensive documentation I picked up (including > numerous schematics) there is not one operator's or user's guide, although > such are mentioned. The OS reference is, apparently, devoted to the > mechanicals: system calls, and so on. Useful, but not at the fledgeling > stage. (: > > If someone knows aught about this machine, I would sure love to hear what > you've got to tell. > > I also picked up a TI 99/4A and an Apple ][plus, which I shall require > some guidance with as well, as I cut my teeth on TRS-80 machines, and > didn't really even get into computers until I had moved up to a 386sx.. > > Thanks. > > ok > -r > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 7 10:48:29 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: MC-10 ??? Message-ID: Does anyone have any old documentation, software, etc., etc., for the old Radio Shack TRS-80 MICRO Color Computer.... also known as the MC-10. I just aquired one with the power-supply, but nothing further. And, I am trying to locate more information on this little unit as well as software for it. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Mon Jul 7 11:02:45 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts In-Reply-To: from "dynasoar" at Jul 6, 97 09:11:26 am Message-ID: <199707071602.LAA09929@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? > I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original > replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like controller > cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and RLL > harddrives. > > Any help appreciated, > > Thanks, > > Kirk Scott > dynasoar@mindspring.com > > > Try DakTech 4900 Ritter Rd. Mechanicsburg, PA 17055 717/795-9420 John -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jul 7 11:18:01 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Apple & Commodore Stuff on Auction Message-ID: <33C116B9.1DB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello again. Time for the list of stuff. I have listed some items on a different auction than eBay AuctionWeb this time. It's a new auction so it's faster to search (less listings) and they do have a vintage computer category and a Non-PC/Mac software category. I'm still trying to reduce the pile (and get a little money for tuition next month) so everything sells for whatever the high bid is. Most of the power supplies/boards have been going for about $5 so far with a few exceptions. Remember to figure shipping in to what it's worth to you, I'm in Central CA. AuctionWeb: Mac II Logic Bd - NEW! Sealed From Factory! Bidding starts at: $5.00 Auction ends on: 07/13/97, 16:54:10 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=dcv57812 Apple IIc Power Supply NEW! Factory Bag/Box! Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/13/97, 17:15:38 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=fok750072 Apple II SCSI Card Current bid: $15.00 Auction ends on: 07/13/97, 17:25:49 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=uiy958 Auction Works: Commodore 1541 Drive in Orig Box Starts at $3 http://www.auctionworks.com/cgi-win/bid.exe?SITEID=WORKS+ACTION=VIEW+LOT=117+ Apple 5.25 Disk Drive Brand New in Sealed Static Bag http://www.auctionworks.com/cgi-win/bid.exe?SITEID=WORKS+ACTION=VIEW+LOT=150+ Apple IIC Computer http://www.auctionworks.com/cgi-win/bid.exe?SITEID=WORKS+ACTION=VIEW+LOT=113+ Thanks for reading, Greg From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 7 11:23:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: PDP as a home computer - Acid Test. I LOST ALL MY STUFF! In-Reply-To: <33C116B9.1DB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: Time to put my PDP=home computer to the acid test! My parents came to the decision that I had too much computer stuff, and it ALL had to go. I talked them into letting me keep one computer. So here's the choice: My 486 or the PDP? Obviously, I kept the PDP. The 486 is staying with my C64 and the CoCo at a friend's house until we find storage. Until then, I get to use the PDP has a home computer! We'll see how this works out. First priority is getting it to boot an OS... Anyoone have a V7 RX02 image? From scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu Mon Jul 7 11:47:43 1997 From: scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Yes, I shall burn in the fyres of Hades... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970624085406.009ab660@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > From: Roger Merchberger > > Yes, I finally got the fever for the flavor of a Pringles -- Dooh! I mean, > the fever to spark up my CP/M machine... despite everyone & their brother > telling me to check the PSU first. > > It is *not* a Heath/Zenith machine.... It states simply on the front: > Heathkit Computer. No nuthin' else. On the back, I found the Serial# and > the number: > > H-120-1. > > I'm assuming this is the model number. It is. > It has two floppy drives (one of > which the garage door is broken on) a full keyboard (which works fine, but > is slightly sticky...) and an internal green 11" diag. mono monitor. You've got an "All-in-one" Heath 100, more commonly known as a Z100. There are several achive sites for software for the unit, you'd need to do an altavista or archie search to find them (memory's way too sloppy, haven't played with the Z for a few years.) The H-121-1 version is the one that looks like an oversized apple ][. > Something tickled in my brain about those floppies, so as I lumbered around > in the dark in my newly-begun clean-ish basement (Eeeeek!) I found my old > non-working Atari 810 disk drive... and the mechs looked almost exact! > Would these happen to be the same mechanically, would anyone know? Probably not, the Z (or H) used standard SA-455? 360K ibm pc style drives > > Also, as there was no paperwork for this, so even the most basic, > rudimentary info on this unit would be helpful... such as: which drive is > the boot drive? Top or bottom? Top, I think. (I have one, but I only got it for the Winchester drive card). > > When I sparked it up, everything seemed to work, the tube came to life, and > greeted me with a finger pointing to the right in the upper-left corner... > and stayed there. Every key sequence I tried resulted in a "Beep" except > which, of course, reset the machine and re-greeted me with > the finger. That is the monitor rom, and certain keys should do something more interesting, like C - color bars (if you have color video, otherwise b&w bars) B - boot prompt, pressing the right combo of numbers and fkeys selects the boot drive. D - dump memory ... and several more > BTW, I (of course) would be in the market for a set of boot disks for this > beastie... It will boot off of CP/M, MP/M, UCSD P-System, Concurrent CP/M, MS-DOS and others. If you find a generic version 1 or maybe 2 ms-dos it might boot, pc specific PC dos won't. The machine has an 8088 and an 8085 processor, and uses the appropriate one for the os in question. I'm not sure what the licensing requirements are, however, I do have several OS's for the machine - I'm sure something can be worked out. > > Thanks one and all, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger You're welcome, pity I'm so far behind in the mail... -stacy -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jul 7 12:39:33 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:49 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I just acquired an Epson PX-8, minus documentation of course, and I need some help. Questions: - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? Or better yet, a PX8-to-PC wiring diagram? (Digi-Key appears to have the plug, part # CP-2080-ND for $1.22 - 800-344-4539) - Can I connect a floppy drive to the 50-pin connector? If so, what specs does it expect? - I assume the SP OUT connector is for a speaker; what are the A/D IN and BRCD connectors for? - Anyone have a spare PX-8 keyboard protector shell they want to sell/trade? Any other info appreciated, thanks Kai From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jul 7 13:34:58 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > I just acquired an Epson PX-8, minus documentation of course, and I need > some help. > Cool machine. I have 2. > Questions: > > - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? Or better yet, a PX8-to-PC wiring > diagram? > (Digi-Key appears to have the plug, part # CP-2080-ND for $1.22 - > 800-344-4539) > I don't have this information with me. See below. > - Can I connect a floppy drive to the 50-pin connector? If so, what > specs does it expect? > No. The floppy drive connects the the serial DIN. The only drive of which I am aware which works is the Epson PF-10. It is pretty rare. > - I assume the SP OUT connector is for a speaker; what are the A/D IN > and BRCD connectors for? A/D = Analog to Digital BRCD = Barcode reader > > - Anyone have a spare PX-8 keyboard protector shell they want to > sell/trade? > > Any other info appreciated, > I have photocopies of two of the manuals. I am missing some pages which are on their way to me. I plan to make a few sets of copies when the pages arrive. Anyone who is interested in copies let me know. A while back I did a dejanews search on px-8, Epson Geneva, it turned up a good deal of information including pinouts for most if not all of the ports. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Jul 7 14:36:17 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33C14531.5B31@xlisper.mv.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? 1 - GND 2 - TxD 3 - RxD 4 - RTS 5 - CTS 6 - DSR 7 - DTR 8 - DCD -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 7 14:35:52 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Interesting. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An anagram of decsystem-ten is "decent system" Found that on a webpage. From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Mon Jul 7 16:11:46 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Aquarius USR() Message-ID: <970707161146.22e0f62b@wartburg.edu> When I first got my Mattel Aquarius some thirteen years ago, I remember going through the owner's manual, typing in all the programs and all that. The manual documented the USR() function as something to execute machine language, which was "beyond the scope of the manual." I looked for probably three years (until I got my Apple IIgs and lost interest) for info on "machine code." The only place I knew to look was the public library, which, of course, had nothing. Does anyone know more about this? I don't have my Aquarius where I'm living right now to play with, unfortunately. -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 7 16:52:30 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 Message-ID: <2291@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33C14531.5B31@xlisper.mv.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? > > 1 - GND > 2 - TxD > 3 - RxD > 4 - RTS > 5 - CTS > 6 - DSR > 7 - DTR > 8 - DCD That's certainly the HX20 pinout, and it's very sensibly arranged. Any DIN plug that will physically fit into the socket picks up a useful set of signals. A 3-pin plug picks up ground and both data signals 5-pin adds RTS and CTS 7-pin adds DTR and DSR and 8-pin adds DCD The later Epsons like my PX4 used a mini-DIN, alas, where you can't play tricks like this. > > -- > David Betz -tony From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 7 16:54:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Panasonic HHC Message-ID: To anyone who's sent me e-mail to be put down on the list for an HHC, if your mail bounced then please post it publicly here on the discussion group, and everyone excuse these people in advance. My service provider seems to think customer service is a joke to be played on its customers. I'll be switching to a provider which can handle the mundane task of exchanging e-mail. Note to the wise: stay away from CRL Network Services. Everyone else, if your mail did not bounce, do not send another request. I have your request saved, I just did not respond to you. I will be compiling a list tonight and will post it so you know if your request has been received. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 7 17:13:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - Can I connect a floppy drive to the 50-pin connector? If so, what > specs does it expect? It only takes, as far as I know, a proprietary portable, battery-operated drive. > - I assume the SP OUT connector is for a speaker; what are the A/D IN > and BRCD connectors for? BRCD = barcode...you could get a barcode wand for it. This machine had applications in warehouses for inventory control. A/D I believe is just what it seems to be: an analog-digital input. > - Anyone have a spare PX-8 keyboard protector shell they want to > sell/trade? Nope. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 7 17:23:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Aquarius USR() In-Reply-To: <970707161146.22e0f62b@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > When I first got my Mattel Aquarius some thirteen years ago, I > remember going through the owner's manual, typing in all the programs > and all that. The manual documented the USR() function as something to > execute machine language, which was "beyond the scope of the manual." > I looked for probably three years (until I got my Apple IIgs and lost > interest) for info on "machine code." The only place I knew to look > was the public library, which, of course, had nothing. > > Does anyone know more about this? I don't have my Aquarius where I'm > living right now to play with, unfortunately. Basically, you'd poke in Z-80 assembler code and then use the USR() function to execute it. I followed the same path you did, and alas never did search beyond the scope of the manual to do assembly. It wasn't until I got my Apple ][ that I learned 6502 assembly. You'd probably need some systems manuals for the Aquarius to do anything useful on it, and I don't think Mattel ever had anything like that publicly available. Speaking of Aquarius, yesterday I had the pleasure of rooting around in Doug Coward's collection, which I must say is incredible. He has computers that I never even knew existed, plus lots of rare games machines and peripherals and stuff. I think on of the rarest items he has is an Aquarius Compact Disk Drive. I thought it was never supposed to be released, but there it is, sitting on one of Doug's shelves. It's a big sucker, about 8" x 8" by 2.5". Just amazing. It seems to have used the Compact floppy disks which looked like a 3.5" but were rectangular in shape (longer than it is wide). Doug, scan that in and put it in your museum! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Mon Jul 7 19:53:31 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies In-Reply-To: <199707071039.FAA02527@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons that > lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent > network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch > programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I > recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do make > a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to find > it. That'd be the one. It has an OS installed; with the CPU I also picked up a QIC unit, 10 meg disk/floppy unit, a 'disk expansion' unit of unknown size (I'm short one power supply), and a GC-001 graphics unit, as well as boxes of QIC tapes and 360k floppies. The OS is installed along with lots of other stuff of unknown purpose on the hard disk/floppy box. It boots fine; I can play a little with it, but I really don't know what's there. I'm able to get file listings of [sys] which I'm assuming is the hard disk. I wish there'd been an operator's manual in the lot.. ok -r From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jul 7 22:23:15 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: PDP as a home computer - Acid Test. I LOST ALL MY STUFF! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Time to put my PDP=home computer to the acid test! > My parents came to the decision that I had too much computer stuff, and > it ALL had to go. I talked them into letting me keep one computer. So > here's the choice: My 486 or the PDP? Hey - I'll take that 486 8-) [Aside - I missed the VAX frame by 35 minutes 8-( Now I can't pick it up until August! Glad in a way - if your parents saw it - they'ld shit a brick - at least that's what we used to say in the good ol' days 8-) Of course that means I missed the RL02 drive as well 8-( ] > Obviously, I kept the PDP. The 486 is staying with my C64 and the CoCo > at a friend's house until we find storage. Until then, I get to use the > PDP has a home computer! We'll see how this works out. First priority > is getting it to boot an OS... Anyoone have a V7 RX02 image? I don't think V7 would fit on a RX02 - maybe an RL02. What you probably want is RT-11. Single user but with Foreground/Background tasking. Or you could try TSX? which is a multi-user RT-11 kinda sort of 8-) I have heard of but not seen one of these. Email me if you decide what you want. [Another aside - you heard from Galesburg yet? Nothing on my end 8-( Once we get you a case, you can just hide the 486 inside and tell *them* its a terminal 8-) ] BC From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 7 23:04:59 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: PDP as a home computer - Acid Test. I LOST ALL MY STUFF! Message-ID: <199707080404.AA06782@world.std.com> > X-Sender: danjo@typhoon > I don't think V7 would fit on a RX02 - maybe an RL02. What you probabl the miniroot would. Rl02(10mb) is more like it. Also V7 requires I&D space so the cpu had better by 11/73 or higher. IF 11/23 then use V5 or V6. > want is RT-11. Single user but with Foreground/Background tasking. Or > you could try TSX? which is a multi-user RT-11 kinda sort of 8-) I have RSTS-11 multitasking/timesharing. Or RSX-11 real time multitasking. Myself RT-11FB is my favorite as it's compact and can run off a rx02 and fast. Allison From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 8 01:06:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: <199707080212.TAA19813@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I assume other people are having the same problem of this host spewing forth duplicate posts? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jul 8 02:19:49 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: IBM PC Radio 9075 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970708002401.3ed72886@mail.crl.com> This weekend I picked up two IBM PC Radio laptops (numbered #9075). Anyone know anything about them? They came with no PS and the batteries are (of course) dead. They're nifty little machines, with a built-in ~adding-machine-sized printer, a connection for an antenna (at least, that's what it looks like) and a PCMCIA-ish slot. Any info would be greatly appreciated, as well as leads on finding a power supply or two. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 7 18:34:36 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08-Jul-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I assume other people are having the same problem of this host spewing >forth duplicate posts? Yep..doing so here as well Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 8 03:23:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: current HHC count Message-ID: Here is the current list I have of the Panasonic HHC buyout... Name Qty ----------------- --- Sam Ismail 4 Allison Parent 3 Jeff Hellige 2 Kelly Fergason 3 Gary Tucker 2 Roger Sinasohn 5 Ward Griffiths 3 Ben Coakley 1 Paul Coad 2 Jim Willing 3 Richard Cini 3 Hans Pufal 2 Doug Spence 3 John Ott 1 Bob Withers 2 Frank Peseckis 2 Roger Merchberger 3 (or up to 10! what a guy!) ursa@idir.net 4 Richard Schauer 2 Brian Stuart 3 Jeff Lodoen 1 Scott Ware 3 SUPRDAVE@aol.com 1 James Rice 3 Benedict Chong 2 Kirk Scott 2 Kirk (dynasoar) 2 Current Total: 66 If your name isn't on here, please e-mail me with how many you want. If your e-mail bounces, post your request publicly. If you want to add to your count, let me know. I will be sending the final total to Mike on Friday, so I will take requests up until sometime Friday when I fire off an e-mail to him. At that point I will try to cut a deal. I'm hoping for 100. Nobody will pay more than $10 per. If we get to 100 it should go down to $9 per. Remember...manuals, power supplies, ROM chips, custom RAM expander tray, some carrying cases. Features thermal printer, FORTH-like language in ROM, QWERTY keyboard. If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, ask for details. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jordicr at eic.ictnet.es Tue Jul 8 03:36:15 1997 From: jordicr at eic.ictnet.es (Jordi Carceller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <19970708083816.AAB13835@default> I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? Does any Winsock exist? Which is the best software for MAIL and WWW? (using a 286, of course) Greetings, Jordi Carceller jordicr@eic.ictnet.es From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 8 05:33:21 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: <199707081031.FAA24274@challenge.sunflower.com> Okay, [SyS][sys] is the first hard disk, then d1, d2 d3 etc It was strictly an office automation machine, usually it came with Document designer, Office spreadsheet and Bmail. When it boots, it has a bunch of dots run across the screen, seems to me at this point it tells you the software license. The licenses are, standalone, 5user, 10 user, 25 user and 48 user. These machines had the networking built in. There are two RS422 ports on the side, you can put 24 machines in a daisey chain on each side. There is a surplus store here with buttloads of them and no one wants them because they don't know what they are. These boxes are INtel based, but propriatary as hell. There is a DOS emulator available or was. Unissys currently owns this platform as of 1986, before then it was sperry, and then your model convergent, allthough convergent still made alot of the hardware under subcontract. If you ask me more specific questions I can probably remember more. It's been 5 years since I even touched one. ---------- > From: Ray Stricklin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Help with Convergent Technologies > Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 7:53 PM > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > > > Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons that > > lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent > > network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch > > programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I > > recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do make > > a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to find > > it. > > That'd be the one. > > It has an OS installed; with the CPU I also picked up a QIC unit, 10 meg > disk/floppy unit, a 'disk expansion' unit of unknown size (I'm short one > power supply), and a GC-001 graphics unit, as well as boxes of QIC tapes > and 360k floppies. The OS is installed along with lots of other stuff of > unknown purpose on the hard disk/floppy box. It boots fine; I can play a > little with it, but I really don't know what's there. > > I'm able to get file listings of [sys] which I'm assuming is the hard > disk. > > I wish there'd been an operator's manual in the lot.. > > ok > -r From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 8 08:26:04 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: <199707081322.IAA27449@challenge.sunflower.com> Oh and the floppy drives are f0, f1 etc. I think a question mark an the Command? prompt will give you more commands, What version of Ctos is it? ---------- > From: thedm > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Help with Convergent Technologies > Date: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 5:33 AM > > Okay, [SyS][sys] is the first hard disk, then d1, d2 d3 etc > It was strictly an office automation machine, usually it came with Document > designer, Office spreadsheet and Bmail. When it boots, it has a bunch of > dots run across the screen, seems to me at this point it tells you the > software license. The licenses are, standalone, 5user, 10 user, 25 user and > 48 user. These machines had the networking built in. There are two RS422 > ports on the side, you can put 24 machines in a daisey chain on each side. > There is a surplus store here with buttloads of them and no one wants them > because they don't know what they are. These boxes are INtel based, but > propriatary as hell. There is a DOS emulator available or was. Unissys > currently owns this platform as of 1986, before then it was sperry, and > then your model convergent, allthough convergent still made alot of the > hardware under subcontract. If you ask me more specific questions I can > probably remember more. It's been 5 years since I even touched one. > > ---------- > > From: Ray Stricklin > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: Help with Convergent Technologies > > Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 7:53 PM > > > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > > > > > Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons > that > > > lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent > > > network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch > > > programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I > > > recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do > make > > > a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to > find > > > it. > > > > That'd be the one. > > > > It has an OS installed; with the CPU I also picked up a QIC unit, 10 meg > > disk/floppy unit, a 'disk expansion' unit of unknown size (I'm short one > > power supply), and a GC-001 graphics unit, as well as boxes of QIC tapes > > and 360k floppies. The OS is installed along with lots of other stuff of > > unknown purpose on the hard disk/floppy box. It boots fine; I can play a > > little with it, but I really don't know what's there. > > > > I'm able to get file listings of [sys] which I'm assuming is the > hard > > disk. > > > > I wish there'd been an operator's manual in the lot.. > > > > ok > > -r From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 08:27:20 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: <199707080535.WAA04648@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: > [Another aside - you heard from Galesburg yet? Nothing on my end 8-( Once > we get you a case, you can just hide the 486 inside and tell *them* its a > terminal 8-) ] That was the idea. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 08:31:54 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: <199707080535.WAA04648@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: > > here's the choice: My 486 or the PDP? > > Hey - I'll take that 486 8-) But it would be a LOT harder to get another PDP than another 486. > I don't think V7 would fit on a RX02 - maybe an RL02. What you probably > want is RT-11. Single user but with Foreground/Background tasking. Or > you could try TSX? which is a multi-user RT-11 kinda sort of 8-) I have > heard of but not seen one of these. Email me if you decide what you want. Hmm... There's an RX02 boot though. Maybe it could boot of seperate root/boot disks like Linux does? Of course, I can't build kernels as I have no source, so that goes in the can. Basically, anything multi-user would be cool, and TCP/IP would be a nice trick. BTW, which Unix was first to have TCP/IP? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 08:35:14 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 In-Reply-To: <199707080535.WAA04648@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I found a picture of another M8186 on the internet. It has one chip on it, the CPU (Dual chips on a single carrier). The other 3 sockets are blank. Mine has 2 chips. CPU BLANK BLANK CHIP. I don't have the M8186 in front of me, but does anyone know what the extra chip is for? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 8 10:56:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 8, 97 08:35:14 am Message-ID: <9707081456.AA06610@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970708/a1f26b76/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 8 10:13:17 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 Message-ID: <199707081513.AA12251@world.std.com> > I found a picture of another M8186 on the internet. It has one chip on > it, the CPU (Dual chips on a single carrier). The other 3 sockets are > blank. Mine has 2 chips. CPU BLANK BLANK CHIP. I don't have the M818 > in front of me, but does anyone know what the extra chip is for? FRom the edge of the board in toward the middle its MMU, spare, floatingpoint, data/control. A minimal board will have data/control double as that's the F11 cpu. It will only be a 16 bit address. The MMU is was nearly standard and gave 18/22 bit addressing. Floating point was in two forms FIS chip, Floatingpoint Instruction Set which were microcode for floating point instructions or the M8188 module that actually did floating point in hardware (2901s!). Other options are the CIS or Commercial instruction set (aka cobal instruction set) and there was writeable control store if you wanted to write custom microcode for things like bitblting or emulation. The 11/23 did not have I&D space like the later J-11 cpus. The liniage for chip-11s is LSI11/03 (kd11-f quad width), LSI-11/2 (dual width KD-11), LSI-11/23a (KDF-11A dual width), LSI11/23b(+) (KDF-11B quad width), Then J-11 series. Note while the books said the 11/23a (kdf-11a) was 18 bit I have found many will operate as 22 bit. The KDF-11b was 22 bit addressing. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jul 8 10:30:52 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <970708112911_-1461085685@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-08 09:35:55 EDT, you write: jordi carceller wrote: << I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? Does any Winsock exist? Which is the best software for MAIL and WWW? (using a 286, of course) Greetings, Jordi Carceller jordicr@eic.ictnet.es >> there is a program out in the shareware world called nettamer which will let you do mail and text only web browsing. i plan to use it on my ps2 model 30 just to say i did it. david From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 8 10:39:31 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 Message-ID: <199707081539.AA06906@world.std.com> > The Floating Point socket will take either a KEF11-AA chip which > holds floating point microcode, or you can plug a FPF11 board in next > to the CPU and run the jumper cable to the socket. The FPF11 is > 5 to 6 times faster than a KEF11-AA (and was accordingly more expensive I have machines with both and the difference is noticeable even with fairly simple stuff. > I think a Commercial Instruction Set (CIS) microcode option may have be > available as well, but I've never seen it installed. I'd guess it > would've plugged into the "Spare" socket. My 11/23b(+) has the CIS and FPP board. The CIS goes into spare. Allison From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 12:05:13 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Amiga32? What's this? In-Reply-To: <199707081539.AA06906@world.std.com> Message-ID: I was reading some old videogame magazines for console games, and found an ad for something from Commodore called the Amiga32. It's a nice-looking unit, with a CD-ROM on top. Anyone know what it is? PS: There's some amiga in the junk-parts section of our place here. I'm gonna snag it given the first chance. But it has no disks or power supply. There's a 3 1/2 in the side of it. All that's there is the unit itself. Would it be worth it? And would it need a bootdisk? From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 8 12:38:04 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Amiga32? What's this? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACA7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Daniel A. > Seagraves[SMTP:dseagrav@bsdserver.tek-star.net] > I was reading some old videogame magazines for console games, and > found > an ad for something from Commodore called the Amiga32. It's a > nice-looking unit, with a CD-ROM on top. Anyone know what it is? > It's called a CD32. It's basically an Amiga 600 minus keyboard, in a one-piece unit similar to a PlayStation/Saturn. It was intended to compete with those entertainment consoles. Not a bad concept; there was a lot of Amiga game software available and it was simple to port to CD32 -- just remove any dependency on a full keyboard. Unfortunately it came along just before Commodore went under, and was never really marketed in the US. It was a decent success in Europe. > PS: There's some amiga in the junk-parts section of our place here. > I'm > gonna snag it given the first chance. But it has no disks or power > supply. There's a 3 1/2 in the side of it. All that's there is the > unit > itself. Would it be worth it? And would it need a bootdisk? > Sounds like an Amiga 500. You'd need a power supply and boot disk. The Amiga 500 power supply looks just like a Commodore 128 power supply, except the Amiga version has an on/off switch. It can use a TV as a monitor, but only in B&W. An RGB monitor is required for color. Amiga 500's go for surprisingly little money -- like $75 for a complete system -- so don't spend much on a PS. If it turns out to be dead, I need an internal floppy drive for mine... Kai From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Tue Jul 8 12:58:03 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <97Jul8.111605pdt.32257@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> Jordi Carceller (jordicr@eic.ictnet.es) wrote: >I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? > >Does any Winsock exist? > >Which is the best software for MAIL and WWW? (using a 286, of course) Sort of in the spirit of this list, I set up this configuration for Internet e-mail: - 8 MHz 80286 AT clone desktop - 4 Meg RAM (all the SIP sockets are filled) - 20 Meg Seagate ST-225 MFM hard disk (C) - 30 Meg Seagate ST-238R RLL hard disk (D) running from its own RLL controller stolen from an XT clone my brother-in-law tossed my way. I had a lot of fun getting it to work in the AT clone. - Trident super VGA video - DOS 6, Windows 3.1 (barely fits on C). - older Trumpet Winsock (version 2.something) - Eudora e-mail (was using version 1.44, now using Eudora Light version 3.01 which is slower, but has a feature I needed that 1.44 didn't have). - 2400 bps US Robotics Courier external modem (that I paid $700 for new in 1985!) With this, we can do e-mail, and text-based internet stuff (I've got Windows telnet and ftp programs as well), but graphic web browsing is out (they all require a 386 or better). I haven't found a text, Windows-based web browser. I've also used Nettamer. It is a DOS-based internet package. To run internet stuff in DOS, you usually need to put together several pieces of software: TCP/IP, PPP or SLIP dialler, packet drivers, etc. Nettamer does all this in one package and does e-mail, ftp, telnet, Usenet, and web browsing. Web browsing is basically text-only, but you can view graphics with an included viewer if you've got a VGA display. The version I tried (1.07) doesn't do frames or image-maps, and forms are a bit brutal. For example, I've used the Altavista search form with it, but I'd probably be pretty confused if I hadn't used the form in Netscape on another computer beforehand. You should be able to find Nettamer on Simtelnet and other software archives. So, you will probably want to use Nettamer instead of the Windows route unless: - you've got a decent amount of RAM (4 meg was quite a lot for a 286) - you've got enough hard disk space - you have to have a GUI. Right now, we just use the e-mail, when we absolutely have to have graphic web browsing, we'll buy a new Pentium machine. Or maybe I'll find a 386 motherboard for free... Hope this helps, Clark Geisler From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jul 8 13:06:40 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <01IKZRSDUA5EAONREO@cc.usu.edu> > Sort of in the spirit of this list, I set up this configuration for > Internet > e-mail: > > - 8 MHz 80286 AT clone desktop [[[ snip ]]] > With this, we can do e-mail, and text-based internet stuff (I've got > Windows telnet and ftp programs as well), but graphic web browsing > is out (they all require a 386 or better). Have you taken a look at Arachne? I've not run it on anything but my trusty office 486 yet, but it claims to be able to run on anything PCish. http://www.naf.cz/arachne/ It's also being distributed by Caldera as WebSpyder http://www.caldera.com/ Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 13:07:23 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: old 80286 In-Reply-To: <97Jul8.111605pdt.32257@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jul 1997 clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com wrote: > Or maybe I'll find a 386 motherboard for free... I'd give you my Laser 386, but it caught fire. Don't ever plug a serial port in backwards, and plug a null modem cable into a friends (Much more expensive!) Packard Bell! (The PB survived minus an add-on COM2: card, my 386 lost it's serial, paralell, HDD & FDD controllers, so it's useless for much more than a terminal) From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Tue Jul 8 13:27:50 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <97Jul8.114559pdt.32263@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> IVIE@cc.usu.edu wrote: > I wrote: >> Sort of in the spirit of this list, I set up this configuration for >> Internet >> e-mail: >> >> - 8 MHz 80286 AT clone desktop >[[[ snip ]]] >> With this, we can do e-mail, and text-based internet stuff (I've got >> Windows telnet and ftp programs as well), but graphic web browsing >> is out (they all require a 386 or better). > >Have you taken a look at Arachne? I've not run it on anything but my >trusty office 486 yet, but it claims to be able to run on anything >PCish. Yes, I looked at, but didn't try out Arachne. It's documentation said you had to have a 386 to do graphical stuff. Might be a better text web browser than Nettamer, though. Clark. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 8 09:53:51 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Amiga32? What's this? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACA7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199707081853.OAA03183@mail.cgocable.net> > > From: Daniel A. > > Seagraves[SMTP:dseagrav@bsdserver.tek-star.net] > > I was reading some old videogame magazines for console games, and > > found > > an ad for something from Commodore called the Amiga32. It's a > > nice-looking unit, with a CD-ROM on top. Anyone know what it is? > > > It's called a CD32. It's basically an Amiga 600 minus keyboard, in a > one-piece unit similar to a PlayStation/Saturn. It was intended to > compete with those entertainment consoles. Not a bad concept; there was > a lot of Amiga game software available and it was simple to port to CD32 > -- just remove any dependency on a full keyboard. Unfortunately it came > along just before Commodore went under, and was never really marketed in > the US. It was a decent success in Europe. > > > PS: There's some amiga in the junk-parts section of our place here. > > I'm > > gonna snag it given the first chance. But it has no disks or power > > supply. There's a 3 1/2 in the side of it. All that's there is the > > unit > > itself. Would it be worth it? And would it need a bootdisk? > > > Sounds like an Amiga 500. You'd need a power supply and boot disk. The > Amiga 500 power supply looks just like a Commodore 128 power supply, > except the Amiga version has an on/off switch. It can use a TV as a > monitor, but only in B&W. An RGB monitor is required for color. > > Amiga 500's go for surprisingly little money -- like $75 for a complete > system -- so don't spend much on a PS. > > If it turns out to be dead, I need an internal floppy drive for mine... > > Kai Amiga 500/2000 is same on most of chipset but Amiga does not have slots and standard 1mb but you can add a clock/512k module to it from underside of this amiga 500. The "slot" is via left side to "sidecars" modules. There is aftermarket that sells complete tower kit and all circuit boards, lots of adapters to refit 500 boards into tower cases provided and make it more of a 2000 models. Neat! Better yet, these are most repair friendly lots of them allows you to swap socketed chips. But problem is 500 chips are easy to destroy because of less buffered i/o ports and these chips are hard to get by now. :( Wished there was alterative chip makers that makes these in CMOS instead of hotter NMOS chips. Funny, the pinouts for the pc floppy drives and amiga drives is very similar but still figuring out how to make it 100% compatiable... sigh! (tried that on 500 with a pc 720k drive, that works but not quite there...) Jason D. From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:11:35 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C752@consulting.ensemble.net> > Does anyone remember this machine : > > it's a video game console (like the atari VCS) but which could sit on > a box which then converts it to a home computer. > > The machine ran on a 6800 and had built-in basic. > > It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series > (78-79?) > > I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was > "imagination machine". > > > Ben > > Ahh, the "APF Imagination Machine" I believe. Somewhere I have a > single cartridge for it. > > -Mp From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 14:07:29 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Amiga in the back In-Reply-To: <199707081853.OAA03183@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: It's a model 500. No disks or PS. And the PS plug looks real funny. I'm going to look in the junk box and see if there's a PS in there. According to the sticker on the bottom, it uses a normal 5v/12v supply. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 8 14:11:53 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Banning People From the List Message-ID: OK. I've been away this weekend for the funeral of my grandfather who passed away last week. I was thrilled to come back and find my mailbox filled with threads dealing with personal disputes (much was thankfully kept off the list). I cannot continue to run this list if I have to constantly mediate situations in which adults are acting childishly. Therefore I am instituting the 1 warning rule: If you post something insulting/immature/inflammatory and I receive a complaint you will receive a warning. If you then do so again within a months time I will eject you. Please do not follow up on this message to the list. If you need to follow up send me personal mail. If you have important comments regarding this rule that you feel I am censoring send me a copy of the message and I will make it available to list members. If you follow up to this to the list regarding its unfairness consider that your warning for this month. ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw PS. I _really_ did not want to have to do this. From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:17:16 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C753@consulting.ensemble.net> The name of the book was something like that, I'll have to dig it up.. -Mp > -----Original Message----- > From: Cord Coslor [SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 10:11 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: which month? > > What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? > Like, > To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? > > Curious to know. > > Thanks, > > CORD > > //*=================================================================== > ==++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, > NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu > 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector > || > || Autograph collector > || > ++==================================================================== > =*// > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a > large > > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the > first > > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first > months > > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first > week > > or two). > > -Mp > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: bwit@pobox.com [SMTP:bwit@pobox.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 11:51 AM > > > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > > > Subject: RE: which month? > > > > > > > > > IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. > > > > > > ---------- > > > From: e.tedeschi > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM > > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: which month? > > > > > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction > > > of the > > > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > > > > > a) the Apple II > > > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > > > c) the Commodore Pet > > > > > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am > > > researching > > > for. > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > enrico > > > -- > > > ================================================================ > > > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > > > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > > > website > > > ================================================================ > > > visit Brighton: > > > > > > > > From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:21:22 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C754@consulting.ensemble.net> > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > system... > > Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 > carts. > > Larry Anderson > > We've reverse enginnered the encryption. I forget the specifics: It > was some sort of Public + Private key deal. The key size was 120 > *bytes* Not all of a cartridge needs to be encrypted (as little as > 4K can be encrypted). Massive overkill for the time. No one has > reported finding the keys yet. Probably never will. > > -Mp From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:22:07 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C755@consulting.ensemble.net> > > Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 > > carts. > > > > Actually, I seem to recall that a guy in rec.games.video.classic has > figured it out, but there hasn't been any practical application of it > yet. But I haven't read r.g.v.c in a LONG time, so things may have > changed... > > I wish I could remember his name... he was one of the big cheese > techie > types in the newsgroup that was always hacking up weird stuff, so I > don't > doubt that he did it. > ------- > > My good friend, Bruce Tomlin, was the person who did that. > > -Mp From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:23:15 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C756@consulting.ensemble.net> The 7800 is actually '83 or '84 developed. A small number were sold then, and the rest sat in warehouses for a couple years. seriously! -Mp > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 6:06 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Encryptor Board... > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" > square > > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's > hiding] > > NOTE: The description above is of two, separate cards. > > > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games > get > > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just > gets > > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get > a > > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be > a > > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > > system... > > Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, > while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. > > I'll go repost a request for info on the atari newsgroups. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 14:33:23 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Emulex QD21 In-Reply-To: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C755@consulting.ensemble.net> Message-ID: I got an edsi drive, and a PS for it. Anyone know how to get the LSI11 menus for it? I had it written down, but I lost the paper. (Someone cleaned my desk!), Also, does V7 have an MSCP driver? What O/Ses do? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 8 18:53:48 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers References: Message-ID: <33C2D30C.14EB@rain.org> Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. Description Model Serial # Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jul 8 20:19:21 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970708182006.3c4fbf62@ricochet.net> At 11:30 AM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: ><< I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? > Does any Winsock exist? >there is a program out in the shareware world called nettamer which will let >you do mail and text only web browsing. i plan to use it on my ps2 model 30 There is also a program called "Arachne" which does graphical web browsing under DOS. (I use it when working on web pages under DOS -- far more efficient and faster than loading windoze and using a windows editor!) I believe it also works with some TCP/IP stack for DOS, but I've not really looked into that. P.S. the NetTamer home page is at and there's a whole passel of DOS Browser/etc. info at . Hope this helps! P.P.S. you can, of course, use a shell account with pine, tin, lynx, etc. with just about any computer that can hook up to a modem. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 8 21:43:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Emulex QD21 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 8, 97 02:33:23 pm Message-ID: <9707090143.AA09877@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970708/64eae613/attachment.ksh From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jul 8 20:59:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: c-16 and Plus/4 In-Reply-To: <33C2D30C.14EB@rain.org> Message-ID: I remember seeing a post here a week or two ago asking about the availability of Commodore 16 and Plus/4 cartridges. I response, I gathered, was that they were not very common here in teh United States, and seemed just altogether uncommon.... maybe even some doubt as to the actual number of titles created. Recently, I picked up my first c-16 / Plus/4 cart -- it was Scott Adams adventure game Strange Odyssey sold by Commodore. This titles was not mentioned by those on this listserv. Anyway, I also have a TON of other titles that I have been using for some time on my PC emulator called Minus/4. A very good emulator. So, I guess what I am finally getting at is it seems there actually WERE a lot of different titles created for these machines, though I do not know the actual numbers of titles, quantities, or popularity in the US. Could anyone out there fill us in on some facts? I just don't have the experience in these machines needed to accurately inform others. Finally, does anyone have a c-16 or Plus/4 machine for sale or trade. I just have this one cartridge, but I have a burning desire to acquire one or more of these machines. Please let me know. My two cents worth, CORD G. COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From transit at primenet.com Tue Jul 8 21:54:17 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, > swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just > curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and > my call is KE6HTS. I'm N6YMK, coded Tech. Sometimes I hit the TRW swapmeet in Manhattan Beach, last Sat. of each month, and find all sorts of old computers (mostly either old micros and the like.) From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jul 8 22:11:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Laser 50 ???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy folks: Well, as I've posted a couple of times in the past, I am re-posting my interest in an old children's beginner computer called the Laser 50. I am seriously looking for one for my daughter. Not really a classic computer, although it is from about 1984, but still a fun little 'toy'. It is about the size of a small laptop, has BASIC on board, about 1.5 k expandable to something like 17 or 18 k, able to hook up a printer and/or cassette interface, and was created by V-tech who still make kids computers. PLEASE let me know if any of you have one of these things lying around, or know where I might be able to find one!! Thank you, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 8 22:12:59 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Hams who collect References: Message-ID: <33C301BB.287C@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > I'm N6YMK, coded Tech. > > Sometimes I hit the TRW swapmeet in Manhattan Beach, last Sat. of each > month, and find all sorts of old computers (mostly either old micros and > the like.) TRW is where I recently found the Xerox 820 and documentation. Other machines I have gotten down there include the APL/80, Tandy 6000, and several Wang computers. I'm generally down there every month and look for good deals. Unfortunately, I only see them a couple of times per year. One machine I would like to get (and have seen several times down there) is a Commodore portable of some sort. However what I am willing to pay and what people have been asking differ by quite a bit :). I've seen quite a few C-64s and some Radio Shack Model Is, but I have enough of them and have turned them down. The Heathkit H-8 I just got was at the CMRA swapmeet held at Devry on (I think) the third Saturday of the month. If you are down sat the TRW swap meet, give me a call as either I or some friends monitor 146.790 simplex (output frequency of a Santa Barbara local repeater.) Marvin, KE6HTS From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jul 8 22:29:25 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Micro-Expander Model 1 S100 system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A local used computer store is moving. Fortunately, they have been marking their cast off equipment as free and placing it on a table outside the store instead of tossing it in the dumpster. Tonight, I rode by the store on my way home from work and saw an interesting system - a Micro-Expander Model 1. Of course, I picked it up, along with a box of 8 inch floppy disks (apparently, RT11 versions 3 and 4.) I plan to return tomorrow during business hours to see if they have anything else of interest. Does anyone know anything about the Micro-Expander? Here's the information from the case: Expander Computer Model 1 Serial No. 1201522 Micro-Expander, Inc. Chicago, IL 60656 (incidentally, only about 5 miles from where it was found) The date codes on the chips are almost all in mid-1981. The main unit is a single piece about the size of a Processor Technology Sol. There is an external power supply, although the +5v and +12v regulators are located inside the main unit. The unit has a Z80 CPU and four S100 slots. The system board boasts 2 kbytes of SRAM (for the display?) , the CPU, a lot of 7400-series TTL, and two EPROMS marked "EXP MONITOR" and "SVENSKA BOKSTAVER" (Swedish ???? - possibly the character ROM?). The keyboard is in Swedish, and the unit was initially configured for PAL video, although that was easily changed by moving a DIP jumper block. Video output is (now) 80x24 composite NTSC, and there is a tape interface as well as RS-232 serial and parallel ports. Powering up the system brings up a monitor program. I'm assuming that this machine could run CP/M, given a few S100 cards with some RAM and a disk controller. Any other information? -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 8 23:33:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACAB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Canonical List of Commodore Products doesn't go into serial number schemes... my 2001-8 is serial # 80684, no leading zeroes... could be a different numbering scheme entirely. Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 4:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Pet Serial Numbers > > Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for > the > Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. > I > believe these both came from the local university at one of their > sales. > > Description Model Serial # > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 > From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 8 23:38:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Panasonic Handhelds Message-ID: This is the last call. On Friday I will be forwarding the final count to Mike. For the benefit of those who haven't seen this yet (and for those asking for more information) here is a casual spec of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers that we are about to get a bunch of: This computer came out around 1984. It was a handheld unit which featured: 6502 processor 8K RAM (the "top-of-the-line" model) 3 slots for 8K program EPROM on-board Custom built tray to hold 10 additional 8K EPROMS Tray also housed both computer and printer to make one compact unit Printer is 40-column thermal (paper can still be found allegedly) Full "QWERTY" keyboard FORTH-like language in ROM called "SNAP" Measures 9" x 3.5" Some manuals available Bunch of MCM 68674 8K EPROMs with programs on them AC Adaptor Now on to the original message. Instructions follow for reserving one, two or many for yourself. Read on. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion Subject: RE: Panasonic Handhelds PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar@crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about [2] days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Wed Jul 9 00:45:29 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:50 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers Message-ID: <199707090543.WAA29289@mx3.u.washington.edu> My PET 2001-8 is a 240V version and has serial number 1008669. There is also a hand texta number on the board itself 38658 ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Pet Serial Numbers > Date: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 9:53 AM > > Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the > Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I > believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. > > Description Model Serial # > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 From bcoakley at teleport.com Wed Jul 9 01:00:47 1997 From: bcoakley at teleport.com (Ben Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Matchpoint? Message-ID: Browsing a local thrift, I found a box containing a "Matchpoint" card. Apparently it's a PC card which allows you to read Apple disks, via an ISA card and some software. Has anyone ever used one? Is it worth finding a 5 1/4" drive for my PeeCee? Also, does anybody have a spare Apple 25-pin-to-19-pin drive cable? (Or are all those pins supposed to be broken?) Thanks, -- Ben Coakley CBEL: Xavier OH bcoakley@teleport.com http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Jul 9 01:27:39 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers In-Reply-To: <33C2D30C.14EB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the > Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I > believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. > > Description Model Serial # > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 The two PETs in this house are 0014090 and 0020272. Both are PET 2001-8's, like yours, but only the first one has the chicklet keyboard and internal cassette unit. The other one has the full-size keyboard and the sharp corners of the metal case have been rounded. I don't know if this has been of any help. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jul 9 01:35:38 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Micro-Expander Model 1 S100 system In-Reply-To: Scott Ware's message of Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:29:25 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199707090635.XAA09999@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Scott Ware writes: > The main unit is a single piece about the size of a Processor Technology > Sol. I believe this may be a Big Clue. Isn't the Expander one of the things that Lee Felsenstein designed between Processor Technology and Osborne? I also seem to remember that it was primarily marketed in Europe. Good catch! -Frank McConnell From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jul 9 01:41:30 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: farewell Message-ID: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally Bill, please unsubscribe me. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 9 09:47:31 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: References: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> Message-ID: <32C9A6A01FA2@ifrsys.com> Charles P. Hobbs Wrote: > > I'm N6YMK, coded Tech. > > Sometimes I hit the TRW swapmeet in Manhattan Beach, last Sat. of each > month, and find all sorts of old computers (mostly either old micros and > the like.) > Gawd, how I miss that. I lived in LA for 12 years, and I think I got most of my best classic stuff from there. I also got burned pretty bad there too. Mostly on supposedly "good" disk drives. It got to the point where I *refused* to buy drives there. I remember once seeing a Pascal MicroEngine there! Although, that *was* in 1984 . . . Jeff KH6JJN From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 9 09:40:49 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... Message-ID: <33C3A2F1.41B6@xlisper.mv.com> I'm taking the following machines to the dump on Saturday. If anyone is within striking distance of Bedford, NH and wants any of these machines please let me know. TI-99/4a (doesn't work) A few TI cartridges and books Heathkit H-11 (works) Heathkit dual 8" disk drive unit (doesn't work) Vector V3-5036 S-100 system (works) Vector dual 5.25" disk drive unit (untested) VT-100 clone -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From visimp at junction.net Wed Jul 9 10:48:40 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: farewell In-Reply-To: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> References: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19970709.074840.35@junction.net> In message <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> you wrote: > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. I asked over a week ago to unscribe me as well but it appears not to have been done. Today, after being away for a week, I have to weed through the chatter to find my important mail. Please unsubscribe me from this list. -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jul 9 11:18:49 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20571EA7D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> David, or anyone who's going to drop by David's place... I'd pay for packing/shipping for any of the Heathkit or Vector equipment that others don't want to keep. Kai > ---------- > From: David Betz > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 7:40 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... > > I'm taking the following machines to the dump on Saturday. If anyone > is > within striking distance of Bedford, NH and wants any of these > machines > please let me know. > > TI-99/4a (doesn't work) > A few TI cartridges and books > Heathkit H-11 (works) > Heathkit dual 8" disk drive unit (doesn't work) > Vector V3-5036 S-100 system (works) > Vector dual 5.25" disk drive unit (untested) > VT-100 clone > > -- > David Betz > dbetz@xlisper.mv.com > DavidBetz@aol.com > (603) 472-2389 > From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 9 11:20:41 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: (fwd) Petition for UNIX Src License - status Message-ID: <33c4ba08.677242@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I thought this would be interesting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- In alt.folklore.computers, wkt@hennry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) wrote: %The petition urging SCO to make source code licenses for 6th and 7th Edition %UNIX (and their relations) is going well, with over 200 signatures on the %petition so far. However, we still need your support to encourage SCO to act. % %If you ever used UNIX on a PDP-11, own a copy of John Lions Commentary %(legal or otherwise), believe that these systems are historically %interesting, or even if you think owning a source code license to a %REAL UNIX would be cool, then please SIGN THE PETITION at % % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html % %If you know anybody else who might be prepared to sign this petition, %then ___pass this message onto them___. Finally, check out the home page %of the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society at % % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ % %Many thanks in advance, % % Warren Toomey wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au % % From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 9 11:46:57 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: If you need to UN-subscribe Look Here In-Reply-To: <19970709.074840.35@junction.net> References: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <33370E7C0611@ifrsys.com> Just to let people know, everyone who is on this list should have gotten a message that describes how to un-subscribe (along with an suggestion to keep it for future reference). For those who were a little too quick with the button, to wit: >To signoff from the list, email to listproc@u.washington.edu with the following request: > > signoff CLASSICCMP >or > unsubscribe CLASSICCMP > Everybody got that? I'm sorry if this message has angered anyone. It's not really on topic, but I feel it had to be said. Peace. Jeff > Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:48:40 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: visimp@junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: farewell > In message <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> you wrote: > > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > > I asked over a week ago to unscribe me as well but it appears not to > have been done. Today, after being away for a week, I have to weed > through the chatter to find my important mail. > > Please unsubscribe me from this list. > > -- > Lindsay Thachuk > in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer > - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong > From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 9 12:19:16 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... References: <33C3A2F1.41B6@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <33C3C814.573B@xlisper.mv.com> David Betz wrote: > > I'm taking the following machines to the dump on Saturday. If anyone is > within striking distance of Bedford, NH and wants any of these machines > please let me know. > > TI-99/4a (doesn't work) > A few TI cartridges and books > Heathkit H-11 (works) > Heathkit dual 8" disk drive unit (doesn't work) > Vector V3-5036 S-100 system (works) > Vector dual 5.25" disk drive unit (untested) > VT-100 clone > Well, I really didn't want these to go to the dump. I just figured that if I said that here I'd be sure to get a response. Almost as soon as I posted this message I got a phone call from someone offering to pick up the entire mess. Rest assured that this stuff will end up in good hands. Thanks to everyone who offered to rescue it. Consider it rescued. David -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 9 13:22:21 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> <3.0.1.32.19970617143712.009e6740@mail.northernway.net> <33A6E3E3.5F08@rain.org> Message-ID: <33C3D6DD.61DA@rain.org> Marvin wrote: > > A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." In the process of going through stuff, I found some manuals that apparently went with these cartridges. In the "Materials and Equipment Needed", they make reference to a Digital Controls Learning Center. In addition to the Center, the user needs a computer with the software (for the program being taught) properly installed. It sure sounds like this is some sort of teaching machine. Does this ring a bell with anyone? From BNICALEK at aol.com Wed Jul 9 14:16:51 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga Message-ID: <970709151643_-1225713903@emout13.mail.aol.com> Collectors: All this talk about the Amiga's got me thinking about what I read in the "Amiga Format" magazine (which they still have subscriptions for). Apparently Gateway 2000 has purchased the Amiga name, but from what I hear, has no real plans for implementation on a new product at the moment. What there are however, are old A1200's or something like that (I'm not to familiar with the Amiga line) going for sale as "remanufactured". Also curious to see if people out there would be interested in seeing Amiga create a new "home computer" which would incorporate educational, productivity and entertainment titles into one package with Internet connectivity. Any thoughts? You can write me personally if you prefer. Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 7 21:27:25 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Amiga in the back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09-Jul-97, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >It's a model 500. No disks or PS. And the PS plug looks real funny. >I'm going to look in the junk box and see if there's a PS in there. >According to the sticker on the bottom, it uses a normal 5v/12v supply. Daniel, Here is the info off of the bottom of my A500's PSU: P/N 312503-01 input: 117V~60Hz 80VA Output: 5V 4.3A 12V 1A -12V 0.1A Pin#1 (lower right): +5 VDC Pin#2 (lower left) : Shield GND Pin#3 (upper left) : +12 VDC Pin#4 (upper right): Signal GND Pin#5 (center) : -12 VDC Hope this helps. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 7 21:45:33 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <970709151643_-1225713903@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On 10-Jul-97, BNICALEK@aol.com wrote: >Apparently Gateway 2000 has purchased the Amiga name, but from what I hear, >has no real plans for implementation on a new product at the moment. What >there are however, are old A1200's or something like that (I'm not to >familiar with the Amiga line) going for sale as "remanufactured". Bryan, Amiga International is now a speperate, though wholy owned subsidiary of Gateway 2000. It has recieved quite a bit of coverage in the last two issues of 'Amazing Computing/AMiga'. In fact, Amiga International has just signed two seperate agreements allowing for 'clones' based on the technology. From what I've read, Gateway and Amiga have every intention of revamping the machine and putting it back in production. BTW, the A1200's aren't remanufactured...they are brand new units that they started new production lines for a few months ago. Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 9 15:57:27 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: farewell In-Reply-To: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim. > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally Sorry you feel this way. The point wasn't really to prevent you from disagreeing - it was to prevent a flood of responses which might have bogged down the list for days. The whole idea of the new rules was to curb the absolute flood of unsubs that have resulted for the most part due to the constant bickering. We dropped from over 220 members to 160 over the last month. I'm sorry to see you go. > Bill, please unsubscribe me. OK. Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 9 12:07:44 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: References: <970709151643_-1225713903@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199707092106.RAA05473@mail.cgocable.net> Well, there's the 500/1000/2000 series still useful at my hometown, but problem is: Will they will keep making those chips?! Better yet, improved and using CMOS instead of hotter NMOS? Jason D. Nip! > >there are however, are old A1200's or something like that (I'm not to > >familiar with the Amiga line) going for sale as "remanufactured". > > Bryan, > > Amiga International is now a speperate, though wholy owned subsidiary of > Gateway 2000. It has recieved quite a bit of coverage in the last two issues > of 'Amazing Computing/AMiga'. In fact, Amiga International has just signed > two seperate agreements allowing for 'clones' based on the technology. From > what I've read, Gateway and Amiga have every intention of revamping the > machine and putting it back in production. BTW, the A1200's aren't > remanufactured...they are brand new units that they started new production > lines for a few months ago. > > Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jul 9 07:42:33 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <199707092106.RAA05473@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On 09-Jul-97, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: >Well, there's the 500/1000/2000 series still useful at my hometown, >but problem is: >Will they will keep making those chips?! Better yet, improved and >using CMOS instead of hotter NMOS? Jason, Yes, the A500, A1000, and A2000 are still quite useful and still quite capable of running the newest version of the OS and such even though they are upwards of 10 years old! The fact that the A2000/A500 is now 10 years old and the A1000 is going on 13 years old doesn't point to it being very likely that the new company will continue production of spare parts for these machines though. I'd say about the only machines they are going to continue to support from the Commodore days are the A4000 and the A1200, which even leaves out my favorite, the A3000. Thankfully, it's still quite easy to pick up replacement chips for almost any of the Amiga's from companies such as 'Software Hut' or 'Paxtron'. In fact, Paxtron seems to still be on the lookout to buy just about any A2000 out there. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Wed Jul 9 16:41:47 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: I would like to unsubscribel Message-ID: <199707092139.RAA08170@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> How can I unsubscribe? Thank you, Yujin From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 9 16:48:39 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33c40611.20142714@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 08 Jul 1997 07:45:33 +0500, you wrote: % % Amiga International is now a speperate, though wholy owned subsidiary of %Gateway 2000. It has recieved quite a bit of coverage in the last two issues %of 'Amazing Computing/AMiga'. In fact, Amiga International has just signed %two seperate agreements allowing for 'clones' based on the technology. From %what I've read, Gateway and Amiga have every intention of revamping the %machine and putting it back in production. BTW, the A1200's aren't %remanufactured...they are brand new units that they started new production %lines for a few months ago. Don't flame me, but my question is : is there a market out there for the Amiga? Even the video editing/effects market seems to have turned towards Apple machines. And even Apple itself is finding selling difficult in the face of the Wintel machines. Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. And even as a Nintendo killer, I wonder how the A1200 stacks up against the N64 (not that I've actually seen one in action). I'm really curious. Ben From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 9 16:50:57 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans Message-ID: Hello, all: Here's one for you...a kind sole that I know on CompuServe was kind enough to produce color scans of the original MITS Altair article from the 1/75 issue of Popluar Electronics. I posted it yesterday on the Classic Computer ftp site under the name altarmag.zip. The file is big (3.7mb), containing about 9 jpgs. Wait till you see the color! I'm also working on this guy to prepare Adobe PDF scans of the original Altair construction manual and schematics. I've seen some scans previously, but they have shadows, etc. Hopefully, these will be of similar quality to the mag scans. When I've got them, I'll post a message. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jul 5 10:56:12 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Question about Sanyo Lunchbox Message-ID: <199707092207.PAA18743@mx4.u.washington.edu> > Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > > > > Has anyone got any ifo on a Sanyo lunchbox, model number MBC-675? > > It brings up a screen that says: > > > > 1701 > > 0 Hard Disks Installed > > ROM Bios v2.33 > > 640kb memory/ CPU clock 4.77MHz > > > > Then it just hangs. A boot disk will not work either. Does the floppy drive LED light up during startup? It should, whether or not the HDD works, and you should be able to boot from a floppy, even with a dead HDD. Therefore if a boot disk doesn't work, either your floppy system is defunct or it's in the motherboard. An easy fix -- which doesn't always work -- is to disconnect and replace all cables. It's fairly easy -- pull cables one end at a time *only*, so you don't forget where they went. Each device has 2 things going into it...a flat (usually, grey, sometimes blue) ribbon cable, for the data; and a power cable. Both are keyed, so you can't put them in backwards. Trace the data cable from the floppy(ies) back to the controller card, and pull & replace. Those are usually pins, and *can* be replaced backwards, so take care. You can swap the controller card into another slot -- any slot should work. If all slots are filled, exchange two cards. Chips work their way out of their sockets ("chip creep"); push every socketed chip back in. I have boxes of cables, controller cards and drives if you need any; e-mail me. If the floppy disk does its thing, are you sure the floppy itself is OK? It must be low density (you can tell by the hub ring) and have the proper files; try booting another machine with it. Not all DOS's will work on all machines -- I've even seen some older machines that won 't boot under DOS 6.x From manney at nwohio.com Wed Jul 9 17:01:52 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Books Message-ID: <199707092219.PAA17545@mx5.u.washington.edu> Does anyone want Intel's book, "Assembly language programming" for the 8080 and 8085 chip? Free, U pay postage. From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 9 18:01:38 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Here's one for you...a kind sole that I know on CompuServe was kind enough to > produce color scans of the original MITS Altair article from the 1/75 issue of > Popluar Electronics. I posted it yesterday on the Classic Computer ftp site > under the name altarmag.zip. The file is big (3.7mb), containing about 9 jpgs. > Wait till you see the color! But don't look for it yet. It has been removed for review while I contact Ziff-Davis about reprint. I already spoke with the current owners of PE who apparently don't own the rights to the old issues. Probably be a couple days but I anticipate they'll be happy to let us use it. > I'm also working on this guy to prepare Adobe PDF scans of the original > Altair construction manual and schematics. I've seen some scans previously, > but they have shadows, etc. Hopefully, these will be of similar quality to the > mag scans. Please remember to get a copy of DS-form.txt from ftp://140.142.225.27/pub/ classiccmp/docs when submitting material. Saves me a lot of time and effort to have that information. Glad to see people are starting to use the archive! Bill From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 9 18:39:06 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: (fwd) Petition for UNIX Src License - status In-Reply-To: <33c4ba08.677242@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I just signed this petition and I would encourage all of you to. Regardless of whether or not you have used Unix or a PDP-11 it will be good for all of us to get companies in the practice of releasing their obsolete code/documentation/hardware/whatever to the public. Bill > %If you ever used UNIX on a PDP-11, own a copy of John Lions Commentary > %(legal or otherwise), believe that these systems are historically > %interesting, or even if you think owning a source code license to a > %REAL UNIX would be cool, then please SIGN THE PETITION at > % > % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html > % > %If you know anybody else who might be prepared to sign this petition, > %then ___pass this message onto them___. Finally, check out the homepage > %of the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society at > % > % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > % > %Many thanks in advance, > % > % Warren Toomey wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au > % > % > > From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 9 19:17:00 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit Hero 1/2000 Message-ID: Just out of curiosity (isn't that a great lead-in??), how much would an old Heath Hero 1000/2000 robot go for?? They seem relatively scarce, but I would like to get one to support my renewed interest in robotics. Just what I need, another hobby... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 9 23:52:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Jason, > > Yes, the A500, A1000, and A2000 are still quite useful and still quite > capable of running the newest version of the OS and such even though they are > upwards of 10 years old! As long as you got the 100+ bucks for the rom and the disks... > > The fact that the A2000/A500 is now 10 years old and the A1000 is going on > 13 years old doesn't point to it being very likely that the new company will > continue production of spare parts for these machines though. I'd say about > the only machines they are going to continue to support from the Commodore > days are the A4000 and the A1200, which even leaves out my favorite, the I think what Gateway had in mind was for the Amiga to be sorta like a "WebTV" type thing. i.e. a bargain computer/box that'd let you "surf the web." > A3000. Thankfully, it's still quite easy to pick up replacement chips for > almost any of the Amiga's from companies such as 'Software Hut' or 'Paxtron'. > In fact, Paxtron seems to still be on the lookout to buy just about any A2000 > out there. And subsequently charge you an arma and a leg when they sell it back to you. Software Hut sells some of their "new" Amigas for more than they cost when they came out years ago! > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers Don't get me wrong, I like my Commodore's just as much as the next guy. But when I go to a plac and they want to chrge me $99 for a 60 meg IDE drive then I have to think twice... Amiga stuff costs too damn much and you really don't get much from them in return. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 9 23:56:45 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <33c40611.20142714@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. > > And even as a Nintendo killer, I wonder how the A1200 stacks up > against the N64 (not that I've actually seen one in action). > > I'm really curious. The last time I checked, the going price for a 1200 was osmehting like $575. For that you got a 14mhz 68020, 2 megs ram, and a 80 (maybe 60) meg HD. Nowhere near being competitive to either a Nintendo or even a PC! PLus, software is extremely expensive and relatively hard to find (You have to know where to look) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 00:29:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: Yea! Thanks to Ted Birdsell's reservation we reached the 100 mark! (This is like a Jerry Lewis telethon.) C'mon, let's squeeze out 50 more! I know you all can do it!!! :) I'm thinking about putting an advertisement on some usenet groups to get some more response. I'm going to advertise them at $15 plus shipping. Please do not get alarmed. Of course I will be making a profit. Remember, there are 400 of these HHCs available. Tell a friend! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 9 15:32:26 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: farewell References: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <33C3F55A.4D51@Brighton-UK.com> Jim wrote: > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@calico.litterbox.com > -- > > "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading > books instead of burning them." > > -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. > Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade I agree to disagree.... this mail list like all the others is made by the people partecipating to it and belong to them NOT to the promoter. enrico From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jul 9 22:47:13 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Amigas and PETs... References: <199707090702.AAA02509@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33C45B40.262C@goldrush.com> RE: CD-32 and Amiga w/drive on the side... The CD32 is actually an Amiga 1200 not the more limited 600. The 1200 has the more advanced AGA graphics chipset (and a 68020 processor). There are expansion units (SX-1 I think is the name of them) readily available to bump the CD32 up to a full-fledged 1200. You can easily adapt an IBM clone 'box' power supply to use on the 500. I have my Amiga 500 and hard drive wired into one. (the hardest part would be finding an Amiga 500 power connector) The 500 is a great computer and one of the easiest to expand, (except for the 2000). You can find alot of good projects on the internet for it. ===-===--===---=-=-=-=-=-===---===--- >From: Marvin >Subject: Pet Serial Numbers >Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the >Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I >believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. My oldest is in the 14000 area IIRC. It is an original 8k unit (the tape drives with it were butchered Sanyo units, so it was'nt too late in the productiion run.) --==-=-=-=--=--=--=====--=--==--=-= >From: Cord Coslor >Subject: c-16 and Plus/4 >I remember seeing a post here a week or two ago asking about the >availability of Commodore 16 and Plus/4 cartridges. I response, I >gathered, was that they were not very common here in teh United States, >and seemed just altogether uncommon.... maybe even some doubt as to the >actual number of titles created. >Recently, I picked up my first c-16 / Plus/4 cart -- it was Scott Adams >adventure game Strange Odyssey sold by Commodore. This titles was not >mentioned by those on this listserv. It was one of the set of eight I had bought (all with the commodore brand name on em), I probably didn't mention it cause I don't remember all the titles... (I am reconing they are in the outside storage closet which is currently inhabited by wasps...) *bummer* >Anyway, I also have a TON of other titles that I have been using for some >time on my PC emulator called Minus/4. A very good emulator. So, I guess >what I am finally getting at is it seems there actually WERE a lot of >different titles created for these machines, though I do not know the >actual numbers of titles, quantities, or popularity in the US. Could >anyone out there fill us in on some facts? Besides Magic Carpet Software, Data-20 (responsible for the +3 productivity programs in the +4s ROM), and Progressive Software (Superbase is available for the Plus/4!) I didnt hear of all that much stuff put out in the U.S. Europe on the other hand has had a great following with the Plus/4 and C-16, most of the programs I would safely guess are from there. User support here was either through PLUG (Plus/4 Users Group), or Jim Hehl in Anchorage. Plug provided a list of European distributors and Jim was into program conversion (Such popular 64 programs like Speedscript were converted). The major bummer about European Plus/4 stuff is alot of it is compressed and locked into PAL mode and thus unviewable on NTSC displays. (Jim & Jack Vandewrwhite had converted some though, I think they are available on funet.fi's FTP., I think the series is called 'ceepee4' something...) >I just don't have the experience in these machines needed to accurately >inform others. >Finally, does anyone have a c-16 or Plus/4 machine for sale or trade. I >just have this one cartridge, but I have a burning desire to acquire one >or more of these machines. Please let me know. Actually.... YES! I picked up one a couple weeks back and will sell it to you for the price I paid ($2.95) plus shipping (USPS, $10 or so...) It comes in its box with a Power Supply (I don't think I have any extra manuals, sorry). I just powered it up and it does work (though there is a strange wire hanging out; looking on the motherboard I would assume it was for a utility cart or something. Regardless it doesn't affect operation.) E-mail me if interested. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 10 03:07:04 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: farewell References: Message-ID: <33C49828.AFA@Brighton-UK.com> Bill Whitson wrote: > > Hi Jim. > > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > Sorry you feel this way. The point wasn't really to prevent you from > disagreeing - it was to prevent a flood of responses which might have > bogged down the list for days. The whole idea of the new rules was to > curb the absolute flood of unsubs that have resulted for the most part > due to the constant bickering. We dropped from over 220 members to 160 > over the last month. I'm sorry to see you go. > > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > > OK. > > Bill On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and whys that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware is narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as an intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I will have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From pcoad at crl.com Thu Jul 10 02:46:53 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Amigas and PETs... In-Reply-To: <33C45B40.262C@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > >From: Cord Coslor > >Subject: c-16 and Plus/4 > > >Anyway, I also have a TON of other titles that I have been using for some > >time on my PC emulator called Minus/4. A very good emulator. So, I guess > >what I am finally getting at is it seems there actually WERE a lot of > >different titles created for these machines, though I do not know the > >actual numbers of titles, quantities, or popularity in the US. Could > >anyone out there fill us in on some facts? > > Besides Magic Carpet Software, Data-20 (responsible for the +3 > productivity programs in the +4s ROM), and Progressive Software > (Superbase is available for the Plus/4!) I didnt hear of all that much > stuff put out in the U.S. Europe on the other hand has had a great > following with the Plus/4 and C-16, most of the programs I would safely > guess are from there. > Infocom produced versions of atleast 2 of their games for the Plus/4: Cutthroats and Suspect. There might have been others. These I can verify. Both games are on disks which were for both Plus/4 and C64. The C-16 didn't have enough memory to run the Infocom games. I haven't seen any mention of the Plus/4 in any Infocom catalog. Strange. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From pcoad at crl.com Thu Jul 10 02:54:14 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: classic software for sale Message-ID: I have a bunch of classic DOS software, manuals, and disks for sale. Many are still in shrinkwrap. The list is too large to post to the list. Email me for a complete list including prices and terms. A short selection is below: A04 Visicorp VisiCalc (198?) manual, disks, CDEX training for VisiCalc, shrinkwrap A10 Microsoft Multiplan (1982-3) (green packaging) manual, disks, plastic case, shrinkwrap G10 IBM Technical Reference (1981) hardware reference manual for PC (includes BIOS source) manual, 3 ring binder, slipcase G11 IBM Hardware Maintenance and service Personal Computer - PCjr manual, slipcase C06 IBM Disk Operating System by Microsoft v1.10 (1982) manual in 3 ring binder and slipcase, disk, quick reference card D04 Ashton-Tate DBase III v1.1 (1984) complete (silver cardboard cover slip case) There are a good number of DOS packages, early Microsoft packages, office productivity packages, a few development tools, and some junk. Nearly all are classics. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jul 10 03:26:34 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <33c40611.20142714@smtp.ix.netcom.com> from "Benedict Chong" at Jul 9, 97 09:48:39 pm Message-ID: <199707100826.EAA04370@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Benedict Chong once stated: > > Don't flame me, but my question is : is there a market out there for > the Amiga? Even the video editing/effects market seems to have turned > towards Apple machines. And even Apple itself is finding selling > difficult in the face of the Wintel machines. To bring this back to the list (as the Amiga is a Classic Machine according the the definition used here), while the current market for the Amiga might seem a bit thin, it might be a good idea to also licence the OS, as it was (and still is) one of the best kernel designs I've seen and had, in 1985, capabilities that we are only now being used in the main stream (read: Wintel market) as well as capabilities that Chairman Bill and the Gateites haven't incorporated. > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. The Amiga OS on a modern CPU should literally scream. My own 7.1Mhz Amiga 500 seems snappy compared to the doggish NT box I use at work, and suffers from fewer crashes. Ah well ... -spc (I guess that's what makes it a classic) From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 03:14:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: Commodore SuperPet SP9000 (Runs Fine) $100 (fwd) Message-ID: Maybe someone is interested in this. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Chris Glackin" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cbm Subject: FS: Commodore SuperPet SP9000 (Runs Fine) $100 For Sale: Commodore SuperPet SP9000 ($100) For sale by private owner Located in Farmington Hills, Michigan Prefer Pickup/Cash Only $100 PLEASE DIRECT ALL INQUIRIES TO: CGLACKIN@MSN.COM 1 Commodore Superpet SP9000 Turns on and seems to run fine * I can't verify the operation of any of the edge connectors due to lack of accessories, but I have turned it on and written some simple BASIC programs that run fine in 6502 and 6809 mode Has both 6502 and 6809 boards with toggle switches on side Green Monochrome trapezoid shaped screen works fine Original piezo speaker sound still works great Keyboard works great Case is in pretty good condition * No dents or major marks, a few minor scratches that could be touched up The 'hood' lifts fine, doesn't even squeak, and has the original stick inside to hold it up - just like a car hood (anyone ever make a miniature drop light for the Pet series?) ** I do not have ANY manuals or accessories for this computer When this computer is turned on, a menu comes up with a list of programming languages to select from. At the top of the screen it says: WATERLOO MICROSYSTEMS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I learned to program in 6502 assembly language on the Pet 2001 w/ a 4040 dual disk drive unit in 1981. I never even knew of a SuperPet until I found this one waiting for the Sanitation Engineers on a curb a few years ago. I thought it was the regular old Pet when I saw it from afar. So I picked it up and carried it home - an excruciating half mile journey. If you are one who remembers lifting a Pet, you know what I'm talking about! I figured I'd relive some of the ol' days and actually put some sort of working system together, but there just isn't any time left in this SDK-A-MINUTE computer world. I have met others online that love their Pet's -- and other various computer antiques -- and seem to enjoy keeping them running, so perhaps this SuperPet can find a much more deserving home. The serial number is SP0000284. Is this the 284th SuperPet off the line? Out of how many? Is it related to HAL? If anyone knows the answers, I'd love to hear them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- E-MAIL: CGLACKIN@MSN.COM Commodore SuperPet SP9000 for $100 -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From groberts at mitre.org Thu Jul 10 07:34:11 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Thank you bill In-Reply-To: <33C49828.AFA@Brighton-UK.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970710083411.008543a0@mail90> I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. His efforts are aimed at preserving the integrity of the list and keeping things civil. I would much rather attend a well run meeting than sit in a room full of people yelling at each other or debating trivia. The quality and usefulness of this list are directly proportional to the number of interested parties who subscribe and I would hate to see subscription dwindle to a few chat cliques. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 10 07:48:52 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans Message-ID: Bill: >>But don't look for it yet. It has been removed for review while I contact >>Ziff-Davis about reprint. I already spoke with the current owners of PE who >>apparently don't own the rights to the old issues. Probably be a couple >>days but I anticipate they'll be happy to let us use it. I hope that they do let us archive them. Frankly, I didn't focus on the fact that the archived article may be considered a "republication". Sorry about that. Does that mean that we would also have to contact Ed Roberts to get his permission to archive a copy of the construction manual? I'll send-up a DS-form on the article scans this afternoon. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From ampage at geocities.com Thu Jul 10 08:07:16 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit Hero 1/2000 References: Message-ID: <33C4DE84.4BF27AD3@geocities.com> You might still be able to buy one from Heathkit. Go to http://www.heathkit.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 10 09:39:33 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > I hope that they do let us archive them. Frankly, I didn't focus on the fact > that the archived article may be considered a "republication". Sorry about > that. Does that mean that we would also have to contact Ed Roberts to get his > permission to archive a copy of the construction manual? Sadly it gets a bit more contorted than that... Ed Roberts sold MITS to Pertec (who proceeded to largely run it into the ground B^{ ), who was then purchased by Triumph-Adler of Germany. So, it can be assumed that TA now owns all of the rights to things MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them on occasion on related matters and have gotten no response of any kind to date. Just my $.02 worth... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 10 09:41:04 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Heathkit Hero 1/2000 In-Reply-To: <33C4DE84.4BF27AD3@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Asterisk wrote: > You might still be able to buy one from Heathkit. Go to > http://www.heathkit.com Sorry, no. Heath is far removed from just about any interest in the HERO line any more. Mobile Ed. Productions is the current best source for information, but no one is manufacturing the HERO any more... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 10:15:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Thank you bill In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970710083411.008543a0@mail90> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. His > efforts are aimed at preserving the integrity of the list and keeping > things civil. I would much rather attend a well run meeting than sit in a > room full of people yelling at each other or debating trivia. The quality > and usefulness of this list are directly proportional to the number of > interested parties who subscribe and I would hate to see subscription > dwindle to a few chat cliques. Sorry to post a "me-to" article (which is forbidden) but ditto. I think Bill deserves at least some credit for putting this together so that at the very least we can scream and bitch at each other. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Thu Jul 10 10:56:04 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704105758.65bf68c6@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 03:19 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: > >> That's funny...a computer facelift. > > Actually, a number of companies offered the same type of thing for the > >ZX-81/Timex-Sinclair 1000. It was to give the computer a real keyboard > And the Atari ST -- to put it in a tower case, among other things. One of the prettiest machines I ever saw was a TRS-80 Color Computer built into a PC clone portable case, with color tube (not yet common in PC luggables at the time) along with the multi-pak interface, floppy controller, etc. It's something I've considered doing myself, but other priorities keep rearing ugly heads. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jul 10 11:05:59 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" Message-ID: Hello: I recently picked up two old game system units that i really don't know a whole lot about. I am hoping some you you may be able to fill me in on soem more information. 1) This unit is label "APF tv fun" pn the front. It has a knob with four game selection possibilities, on/off switch/ start button, angle setting, bat size setting, and ball speed setting. It appears this is an old Tennis/baseball type of game unit. It also appears that the actual controllers on on the main unit in the form of knobs. It saw it was made in Japan by APF Electronics, Inc. although I can't find a year. Could anyone help there? It also says underneath TV FUN Model No. 401A and seriel number is S- 052193. Finally it has the TV channell selector (3 or 4) and battery storage unit to run it off batteries. Could anyone please give me some more information on this, and also info. on if it might have some value out there or interest from any of you? 2) This looks like a 'golden oldie'. This also is a self contained game unit. It came complete with two odd looking joysticks, although the machine has ports for four joysticks. On the front it has a calculator looking button pad and to the right of that is a cassette insertion place along with an eject and reset button. Behing all of this is a storage compartment for several cassettes, complete with hard palstic cover for this area as well.I also have an overlay that says Astrocade BASIC (c) 1978 Astrocade, Inc.? This apparently goes with a cassette for the unit that says " BASIC, Computer Programming Cartridge with Built-In Interface (c) 1981 Astrocade, Inc. " On the cassette is a small like and an audio cassette Jack (in/out) -- also came witha small microphone.On the underside it says Astrocade Arcade Model ABA-1000-2 with a seriel # of 020777 and Astrovision, Inc, Garner, Iowa also on the bottom. Again, would any of you know more information on this unit, and if it might have some value out there to collectors? Are any of you interested? I only paid $5 for both of the above items, and I guess I am willing to entertain propositions if anyone wants them. Please let me know. Oh, yes, are there other cassettes available for the Astrocade? Are the above units very common these days? Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 10 11:20:39 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Interfacing Hard Sector Disk Drive References: Message-ID: <33C50BD7.524D@rain.org> In the comp.os.cpm newsgroup, one of the posts referred to wanting to know the geneology of MDOS (Micropolis Dos.) That led to the fact the disks were 16 hard sector disks ... which led to the interfacing for the Micropolis 100 TPI disks drives. Is the controller specific to the controller or can the drive be interfaced to any controller? I suspect the controller and drive are a pair but don't know for sure. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 10 11:25:58 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" Message-ID: <199707101625.AA11432@world.std.com> > 1) This unit is label "APF tv fun" pn the front. It has a knob with fou > game selection possibilities, on/off switch/ start button, angle settin > bat size setting, and ball speed setting. It appears this is an old > Tennis/baseball type of game unit. It also appears that the actual > controllers on on the main unit in the form of knobs. It saw it was mad > in Japan by APF Electronics, Inc. although I can't find a year. Could > anyone help there? It also says underneath TV FUN Model No. 401A and that's the oldie of the bunch! Early game machines from the mid '70 were the tennis/pong type and used a few chips. their logic was a mix of digital and analog. My guess would be 75-77 timeframe. It would be some years before the tvgames would go the microprocessor route to get the the first ataris and company. Allison From william at ans.net Thu Jul 10 12:12:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <199707100826.EAA04370@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199707101712.AA25353@interlock.ans.net> > > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. > > The Amiga OS on a modern CPU should literally scream. My own 7.1Mhz Amiga > 500 seems snappy compared to the doggish NT box I use at work, and suffers > from fewer crashes. The thing that dooms new developement of the Amiga line is the fact that the M68K line of processors is just about out of steam. Sure, a blazingly fast Amiga with a 68060 would be nice, but Motorola is trying to kill off the line gracefully, so the PowerPC and Coldfire chips can prosper. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 12:17:03 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: farewell Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Enrico, You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg interface which has allowed us to ignore the realities of our Jungian existance. Those among us who have perused and then obviously ignored the message of the volume of our times, Gibson & Sterling's _The Difference Engine_, and shall surely rotate on the firey rotissery of Dante's twenty-ninth buglia of the pit, which of course is reserved for those who have committed the terrible sin of coveting thy neighbor's Imsai. How can we claim to discuss the so-called 'collecting' of so-called 'classic' computers when our hypocritical censorious self-righteousness has made us purblind to the fact that 'collect' also purtains to a short prayer comprising an invocation, petition, and conclusion! And 'classic' from the Roman 'classicus' identifies us as citizens of the first rank, who should know better! What this obviously boils down to is the age old conflict of materiality and the health of the soul cleaved by the sword of societal amiguity. In an awful orgy of idolitry we have in a very real and illusive sense integrated these actual bits of, as you put it, metal and plastic into our flesh itself, becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. Kai > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 1:07 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: farewell > > Bill Whitson wrote: > > > > Hi Jim. > > > > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say > they disagree. > > > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from > this list. > > > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or > Tiger Learning > > > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > > > Sorry you feel this way. The point wasn't really to prevent you > from > > disagreeing - it was to prevent a flood of responses which might > have > > bogged down the list for days. The whole idea of the new rules was > to > > curb the absolute flood of unsubs that have resulted for the most > part > > due to the constant bickering. We dropped from over 220 members to > 160 > > over the last month. I'm sorry to see you go. > > > > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > > > > OK. > > > > Bill > > On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this > > mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH > discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and > whys > that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware is > narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider > "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as > an > intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking > about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? > > As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and > plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they > managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your > > hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future > generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I > will > have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 10 12:36:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Floppy Disk Media References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33C51D87.1482@rain.org> Just curious here, does anyone have a list of the MANY brands of floppy disks and who the actual manufacturer might be? I got intrigued several years ago with the many floppy disks that were available and have been just setting them aside as I saw interesting ones. So far, I haven't bothered to catalog them but it is interesting to see the different jackets. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 12:35:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: Zenith Portable Computer ZP-150 Message-ID: Anyone know much about the Zenith Portable Computer ZP-150? I'm possibly buying one this weekend and want to know a little about it before I go through all the trouble. Thanks! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 12:30:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > 1) This unit is label "APF tv fun" pn the front. It has a knob with four > game selection possibilities, on/off switch/ start button, angle setting, > bat size setting, and ball speed setting. It appears this is an old > Tennis/baseball type of game unit. It also appears that the actual > controllers on on the main unit in the form of knobs. It saw it was made > in Japan by APF Electronics, Inc. although I can't find a year. Could > anyone help there? It also says underneath TV FUN Model No. 401A and > seriel number is S- 052193. Finally it has the TV channell selector (3 > or 4) and battery storage unit to run it off batteries. Could anyone > please give me some more information on this, and also info. on if it > might have some value out there or interest from any of you? I have one as well. Don't know what year it came out but my guess is early 80s. Just another maddening Pong console. > 2) This looks like a 'golden oldie'. This also is a self contained game > unit. It came complete with two odd looking joysticks, although the > machine has ports for four joysticks. On the front it has a calculator > looking button pad and to the right of that is a cassette insertion place > along with an eject and reset button. Behing all of this is a storage > compartment for several cassettes, complete with hard palstic cover for > this area as well.I also have an overlay that says Astrocade BASIC (c) > 1978 Astrocade, Inc.? This apparently goes with a cassette for the unit > that says " BASIC, Computer Programming Cartridge with Built-In Interface > (c) 1981 Astrocade, Inc. " On the cassette is a small like and an audio > cassette Jack (in/out) -- also came witha small microphone.On the > underside it says Astrocade Arcade Model ABA-1000-2 with a seriel # of > 020777 and Astrovision, Inc, Garner, Iowa also on the bottom. Again, would > any of you know more information on this unit, and if it might have some > value out there to collectors? Are any of you interested? It's a Bally Astrocade and I would consider it highly collectible, if not rare. I have yet to find one for myself, and have only recently seen one in person. Games are fairly hard to find for it, and only occasionally come up for sale or auction on the net. Nice find! > I only paid $5 for both of the above items, and I guess I am willing to > entertain propositions if anyone wants them. Please let me know. Oh, yes, > are there other cassettes available for the Astrocade? Are the above units > very common these days? I'd be interested in the Astrocade if you're interested in selling it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Thu Jul 10 12:48:34 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:51 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: from "Cord Coslor" at Jul 10, 97 11:05:59 am Message-ID: <199707101748.MAA19706@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I think of the two there, the Bally is much cooler. My Astrocade is the co-star in my home videogame collection, along with my Vectrex. The machine started off life as the Bally Professional Arcade (Yes, Bally the pinball & arcade game people (not Bally the bra manufacturer... I always thought it'd be cool if they were the same company... imagine the possibilities)... was this before they merged with Midway?). After its birth in 1978, its name was changed to the Bally Computer System, after Bally sold the rights to the machine in 1981 to a group of devoted users who were wanting to keep it alive. Then like in '82 the company changed its name from Astrovision to Astrocade. They continued to manufacture the machine until around 1985. The machine is a Z80, running at 3.5Mhz. It has 4K ram, and 4 "games" built into its ROM. The sound is 3 voice with noise & vibrato. It has to be one of the best sounding machines made during that era. The first time I turned mine on and played Space Fortrees I was blown away. The graphics aren't bad for 1978, but the sound is awesome... might be the same sound setup they put in their arcade games, not sure. The Astrocade also has the distinction of having THE BEST joysticks for any home arcade system I've played on (with the Nintendo's original NES in last place, right behind the TI-99/4A). Bally was on the ball when they designed these... they're a joystick that also twists like a paddle, and the pistol grip with trigger fire button is a fabulous. Cartridges for it are somewhat difficult to find, but you can find them being auctioned on usenet occasionally. For more info, check out: http://www.io.org/~komb1/Ballyfaq.html From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 10 13:57:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Floppy Disk Media In-Reply-To: <33C51D87.1482@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jul 10, 97 10:36:07 am Message-ID: <9707101757.AA14791@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970710/4e1affea/attachment.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jul 10 13:07:05 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <199707101712.AA25353@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jul 10, 97 01:12:57 pm Message-ID: <199707101807.OAA06076@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: > > > > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > > > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > > > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. > > > > The Amiga OS on a modern CPU should literally scream. My own 7.1Mhz Amiga > > 500 seems snappy compared to the doggish NT box I use at work, and suffers > > from fewer crashes. > > The thing that dooms new developement of the Amiga line is the fact that > the M68K line of processors is just about out of steam. Sure, a blazingly > fast Amiga with a 68060 would be nice, but Motorola is trying to kill off > the line gracefully, so the PowerPC and Coldfire chips can prosper. But that doesn't mean that the OS can't be ported to other chips. The operating system is (more or less) divided along three main components: Exec (more or less the kernel), DOS (the file system) and Intuition (the GUI). Exec isn't that big, and in one evening I had about half of it written in C (there were still some issues like memory management and task switching that obviously will be CPU dependant, but as it stands, the API is fairly neutral in that reguard). DOS was actually a port of Tri-POS (from England) and if I recall, was ported to Exec in about three weeks. Intuition might be the more difficult part, as it does rely upon the graphics subsystem, but from what I hear, some of the later versions (before Commodore went belly-up) had managed to get more abstraction. The other funny thing about the OS is that Exec was (obviously) written in 68K assembly, DOS in BCPL and Intuition in C. I don't see why it can't be ported. -spc (Nice system) From idavis at comland.com Thu Jul 10 13:12:39 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List Update Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970710181239.0092afd0@mail.comland.com > It has been a month since I started the list, so I guess it's time for an little update. We have quite a few entries so far, and the list really looks good. Only two of us (Brett and myself) have volunteered to have our vehicles repainted, stickers applied, and flashing lights installed. Just keep in mind that this list is strictly that, just a list. No one is comitted to do anything, but we are all here in the interest of preservation, so anything you can do will help. I, as well as everyone on the list has a limit to what they will/can haul and ship if necessary. We all pretty much have the same goals and limitations. If you are not on the list, and want to be added, feel free to email me. On a side note, I have also added a second page with a list of items that have been saved. If someone contacts you through the list and you manage to save something, go ahead and let me know. I will add it to the page. If you cannot get to the web page, or know someone who wants a copy, I can email it to you/them. Thanks for all of the entries. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jul 10 13:08:33 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970710111308.3d3f124a@mail.crl.com> At 09:48 PM 7/9/97 GMT, you wrote: >the Amiga? Even the video editing/effects market seems to have turned >towards Apple machines. And even Apple itself is finding selling >difficult in the face of the Wintel machines. I'd be willing to bet that GW2K is after the video toaster technology (yes, I know it's a separate company). It is a pretty hot system, at least according to friends who do that sort of thing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 13:54:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Floppy Disk Media Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20577A528@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Unsurprisingly, the majority of floppy disk magnetic media was/is made by the leaders in audio magnetic media. The two historic giants in that field were BASF and 3M, who independently invented magnetic recording technology. Personally, my favorite floppy brand is Verbatim DataLife Plus. They use a Teflon media coating and are virtually indestructible in normal usage. If you spilled something on one, you just cut the side of the jacket, pulled out the media, washed it in warm soapy water, put it back in another jacket and you were good to go. Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 10:36 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Floppy Disk Media > > Just curious here, does anyone have a list of the MANY brands of > floppy > disks and who the actual manufacturer might be? I got intrigued > several > years ago with the many floppy disks that were available and have been > just setting them aside as I saw interesting ones. So far, I haven't > bothered to catalog them but it is interesting to see the different > jackets. > From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 10 15:11:10 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Thank you bill References: <3.0.3.32.19970710083411.008543a0@mail90> Message-ID: <33C541DE.2FE7@Brighton-UK.com> Glenn Roberts wrote: > > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just hardware OR history of the machines as well? enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 10 15:17:34 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: farewell References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33C5435E.6FF9@Brighton-UK.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Enrico, > > You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness > we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism > of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary > Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg > interface which has allowed us to ignore the realities of our Jungian > existance. Those among us who have perused and then obviously ignored > the message of the volume of our times, Gibson & Sterling's _The > Difference Engine_, and shall surely rotate on the firey rotissery of > Dante's twenty-ninth buglia of the pit, which of course is reserved for > those who have committed the terrible sin of coveting thy neighbor's > Imsai. How can we claim to discuss the so-called 'collecting' of > so-called 'classic' computers when our hypocritical censorious > self-righteousness has made us purblind to the fact that 'collect' also > purtains to a short prayer comprising an invocation, petition, and > conclusion! And 'classic' from the Roman 'classicus' identifies us as > citizens of the first rank, who should know better! What this obviously > boils down to is the age old conflict of materiality and the health of > the soul cleaved by the sword of societal amiguity. In an awful orgy of > idolitry we have in a very real and illusive sense integrated these > actual bits of, as you put it, metal and plastic into our flesh itself, > becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped > from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. > > Kai Exactly! enrico From chemif at mbox.queen.it Thu Jul 10 14:40:37 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: "Bally AstroBreast" and TI collectors Message-ID: <199707101940.VAA29622@mbox.queen.it> At 12:48 10/07/97 -0500, you wrote: >The machine started off life as the Bally Professional Arcade (Yes, Bally >the pinball & arcade game people (not Bally the bra manufacturer... I >always thought it'd be cool if they were the same company... imagine the >possibilities) HA!HA!HA!HA! Yes, the pinball game where instead of side buttons you have..(immagine). HE!HE!HE! Ok, now a serious IN TOPICS question: Anyone collecting Texas Instruments minis (990 family) and related peripherals like Omni? 810 Printer? Let me know. Bye ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html From dynasoar at mindspring.com Thu Jul 10 19:10:03 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: classic software for sale References: Message-ID: <33C579DB.88E@mindspring.com> Paul E Coad wrote: > > I have a bunch of classic DOS software, manuals, and disks for sale. Many > are still in shrinkwrap. The list is too large to post to the list. Email > me for a complete list including prices and terms. Hello Paul, Please email me the list of what you have available. I am particularly interested in: > > G11 IBM Hardware Maintenance and service Personal Computer - PCjr > manual, slipcase > Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jul 10 16:40:49 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: "Bally AstroBreast" and TI collectors In-Reply-To: <199707101940.VAA29622@mbox.queen.it> from "Riccardo Romagnoli" at Jul 10, 97 09:40:37 pm Message-ID: <199707102140.QAA10760@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I have both. The 990 is in storage, but the 810 is still in use on my pc. Please remember to include your email address when posting. This will save some extranous replies. John > > Anyone collecting Texas Instruments minis (990 family) and related > peripherals like Omni® 810 Printer? > Let me know. > > Bye > > > > §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ > Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE > AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY > Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* > where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 16:52:18 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>But don't look for it yet. It has been removed for review while I contact > >>Ziff-Davis about reprint. I already spoke with the current owners of PE who > >>apparently don't own the rights to the old issues. Probably be a couple > >>days but I anticipate they'll be happy to let us use it. > > I hope that they do let us archive them. Frankly, I didn't focus on the fact > that the archived article may be considered a "republication". Sorry about > that. Does that mean that we would also have to contact Ed Roberts to get his > permission to archive a copy of the construction manual? For any submission, be it documentation, software, ROM-code, whatever it is best to fill out a DS-form. I have designed it in such a way that even if you are not able to untimately reach a person who legally holds an item, it shows a trail of efforts made to acquire the proper permissions. In many cases we will not be able to track down original publishers but if one should appear out of obscurity with a lawsuit in hand I can show that we did everything we could reasonably do to obtain permission. Bill From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 17:06:40 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Thank you bill In-Reply-To: <33C541DE.2FE7@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: > Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just > hardware OR history of the machines as well? > > enrico For the benefit of any here who have not read my response to this question or the FAQ: Anything related to classic computers is appropriate discussion. History is generally included in the term "anything". I cannot make this any clearer. If you post a message and no one follows up then they are unable or unwilling to do so. In these instances a repost 3-4 months later may get better results as there will (hopefully) be an increased readership after that time. Repeatedly resurrecting topics for which no one has an answer will result in people being annoyed with you and becoming less likely to respond favorably to anything you post. This is human nature. The FAQ lays out in excruciating detail what kinds of discussion are appropriate here. I highly suggest that you read it if you have any questions. Bill Whitson From josh at netins.net Thu Jul 10 17:25:45 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Zenith Portable Computer ZP-150 Message-ID: <199707102225.RAA20871@ins6.netins.net> I sure do! Used to own one! It is a laptop simmilar to tandy's 600, except without a floppy. Uses microsoft "Works" integrated software. Nice 80X16 screen. Uses 10 AA batteries, yes TEN! Needs special cable to hook to printer, but shouldn't be hard to make one. Nice to use for a remote (very dumb) terminal. Has internal 300bps modem. Has a few softwares, like the Model 100 does. Hope it helps! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 17:06:53 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: FAQ addition: Repairing Capacitive Keyboards Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20578947C@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> REPAIRING CAPACITIVE KEYBOARDS v1.0 7/10/97 Kai Kaltenbach ---> What are capacitive keyboards? The vast majority of capacitive keyboards were and are manufactured by Keytronics of Spokane, Washington. The mechanism is really quite simple. A keypress pushes a foil circle onto the surface of a printed circuit board, thus completing the circuit and registering the keypress to the computer. Capacitive keyboards are very reliable; however, they will fail over time even if unused. Each foil contact circle is backed by a cylinder of PVC foam. The foam is subject to environmental deterioration. Once the foam loses its elasticity or dissolves entirely, the keys will stop working because the foil circles will no longer make good contact with the PC board. Various classic computer systems, such as the Processor Technology Sol, exhibit this problem after their 20+ year lifespan. ---> How do I tell if I have a capacitive keyboard? Just remove a key cap -- if there is a separate spring under the key cap, around the plunger, it's extremely likely that it's a capacitive keyboard. They won't always say Keytronic on the outside of the keyboard housing. ---> What do I need to start a repair job? First you need a set of replacement foam pads. Each foam pad is a cylinder about 1/4" in diameter and 3/16" long. There is a semi-rigid clear plastic circle attached to one end of the pad, and a foil cylinder attached to the other end. The only toosl you'll need are a #1 Philips screwdriver and a very small standard screwdriver such as those pen-clip types frequently included in computer tool kits (plus whatever tools are necessary to remove the keyboard from its enclosure). ---> Where do I get replacement pads? If you're a perfectionist, you can order replacement pads from Keytronic Corporation (http://www.keytronic.com/). However, it's much easier to simply find a capacitive keyboard in your local computer junk/surplus store and strip it for replacement pads (see above for info on identifying such keyboards). Note: If you're stranded on a desert island with only your computer and a screwdriver, you can get the important keys working again by using pads from the numeric keypad, which is usually in good shape because it's not used very much. ---> OK, I've got all of the necessary items, what are the repair steps? 1. Remove the keyboard from its enclosure. Place on an open workspace. Putting a pad of some type underneath may help avoid marring of the keycaps, but in any case be careful to prevent static discharge if your keyboard model has ICs on the PCB. A ground wrist strap is recommended. Lock up the cats. 2. With the keyboard face-down, remove all of the screws on the back of the PCB (there are a lot!) Don't worry, nothing is going to fall apart when you remove the PCB. 3. Remove the PCB. Place to the side. If it shows any signs of dirt on the contact side, you'll want to clean it with a non-residue, non-lubricating contact cleaner. 4. Identify pads that need replacement. If you're replacing all of the pads, you can skip this step. First, look for any foil circles that are damaged. Then, while looking down the length of the keyboard on the back side, press each row of keys and make sure that each foam pad protrudes sufficiently and cleanly out the back of each key plunger. The most-typed keys are the first to go (return, space, A, E, etc.) When in doubt, replace a pad -- that's a lot of screws to remove to do this over again! Replace pads one at a time. 5. Carefully remove the keycap and spring. There are actually keycap removal tools available, but whatever you use, just make sure to pry from both sides at once, not just one side. Don't bend the key sideways. 6. Holding the keyboard perpendicular to the table, place the Philips screwdriver into the back of the key plunger and push gently to pop the plunger out the other side. 7. Pick up the plunger. Remove the foam cylinder by inserting a fingernail under the foam cylinder's clear plastic circle. A tiny bit of leverage and it'll pop out. 8. Put the replacement foam cylinder in place. Gingerly use the very small standard screwdriver to pop the clear plastic circle into the plunger by pressing around its outside edge. Be careful not to damage the foam or the foil circle. 9. Replace the plunger in the keyboard chassis. 10. Replace the spring and keycap. Use the very small standard screwdriver to press on the edge of the bottom of the plunger to firmly seat the key cap. 11. Repeat as necessary. Note: If you're skilled at delicate work and have various sized tools available, you can probably replace the foam pads from the back without removing the keycaps, but this is not recommended for beginners. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 17:48:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: News from Apple Message-ID: Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? (sorry, mostly off-topic but, hey, it's STEVE JOBS!!!) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 18:57:34 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Updates Message-ID: Hi all. A lot of things have been significantly updated over the last few weeks. You may want to take a look. The web site (http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html) has been reworked somewhat. Brett's Classic Computer Encyclopedia (http://www.xnet.com/~danjo/classic/index.html) has grown quite a bit but could use some images (hint, hint, guys) Isaac's Classic Computer Rescue site (http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html) is looking good. The Links Section of the web site has nearly doubled (although I know you guys have more that you could cough up ;) Same with the FAQs section (once again - send me more) and the ClassicCmp FAQ has been HTMLized for your ease of reading. The document archive is online (although most listings are still being held under review). The Big List of Classic Computers now contains sections for Prototype and Limited-Run computers and for computers which more info is needed on. The FTP site has been indexed and divided up into sections for various computers - not a whole lot is there, a few faqs, articles, and pictures. Feel free to send more ;) (ftp://140.142.225.27/pub/classiccmp) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From dougdu at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 20:34:31 1997 From: dougdu at MICROSOFT.com (Doug Duchene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: PDP-11 simulator plus V5, V6, and V7 Unix Message-ID: Thought this might be of some interest to list members... - Doug > ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/sim/README > > This directory contains computer simulators developed by Bob Supnik > (bob.supnik@ljo.dec.com). > > In ./sources > > sim_2.2d.tar.Z - the simulator sources and documentation > > In ./software > > os8swre.tar.Z - sample OS/8 software and a user license from > DIGITAL > > rdosswre.tar.Z - sample RDOS software and a user license from Data > > General > > uv5swre.tar.Z - sample PDP-11 UNIX V5 software and a user license > from > SCO > > uv6swre.tar.Z - sample PDP-11 UNIX V6 software and a user license > from > SCO > > uv7swre.tar.Z - sample PDP-11 UNIX V7 software and a user license > from > SCO > From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 20:34:49 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt some feelings - but well hell - that's life! First from Enrico - > On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this > mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH > discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and > whys that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware > is narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider > "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as > an intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking > about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? No it is NOT wise! However - it is *as you said* understandable. Each person is a collection of feelings and memories, sometimes refered to as a *pile of the past*. Each of us has had different experiences in EVERYTHING we do. No two people view life the EXACT same way. Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting. (I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines. The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware. The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it, understanding it, and aquiring it. Now, if everybody on the list had an Apple, an Amiga, an Altair, an Imsai, a DEC 11/24, an IBM 360, two Commodore 64s, a BBC, etc,etc,etc THEN we might sit down and discuss the history. We can discuss it now - but I would rather be gathering all the hardware I can get my hands on NOW and think about the history. I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-) > As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and > plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they > managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your > hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future > generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I > will have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. As said before, we are all different. I will gladly discuss the history of computing. However, if I stray from why I think Turing was a genius to WOW I JUST GOT MY RL02 TO BOOT MY 11/23 - you will have to forgive me. I'm just that kind of guy. On the other hand tho - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I have seen the messages from you in the last two weeks and you have not mentioned *history* at all! You have mentioned the social and psychological impact of why we collect individual machines - it the same with cars - it the same with ANY collectable. But it is NOT what I call - History. Nobody NEEDS a twenty year old computer! Not in the USE sense - they NEED them to remind them of the good times in the past. That spark of WONDER or GLORY or FULLFILLMENT they got from that item. The same as ANY collectable. If you have no sense of wonder or glory or fulfillment - you don't collect for the sake of collecting - you are collecting for the ECONOMICS of collecting. On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness > we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism > of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary > Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg [snipped but saved] > becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped > from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. > > Kai Beautiful! I have not (except for Bill's bathroom story) been so wonderfully entertained and amused by posts to the list than this! You've gone up a notch in my book. Glenn Roberts wrote: > > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. Enrico replied Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just hardware OR history of the machines as well? Pint! Oh point 8-( I think Bill summed it up - go ahead - but don't *expect* anyone to discuss it with you. The list hasn't been around long enough to develop a *personality*. (Did I speak to late!?!?) The list doesn't HAVE a POINT. But the people on it do. We gather here and there in the faint glow of Cathode Ray Tubes connected throughout the world by the wonder of modern man - The Internet - and discuss computers that are older than 10 years. Some will never again be seen as useful. As some say - "They can have my DEC, when they pry it from my cold dead hands!" Some will use them, some will sell them, some will lurk in the dark corners, some will boil to the surface with an explosion of estatic joy and/or humor, some will solder little thingmajiggies together, some will droll on and on about some favorite piece of hardware or software, some will leave and others will come. It's called "community" - the one thing man has over all other animals. It isn't easy, and it isn't hard. There is give and take. Those who give constantly will be consumed, Those that only take - will eventually be bored. The problem - currently - is Enrico. You have not either explained what you want (I certainly don't understand) or what you want isn't here. If you can explain - in terms we can understand - I am sure that your desires can be fullfilled by this list as well as Sam's (sorry Sam - I see you as a hardware mogul - more more more 8-) It is usually best, I have found, to walk into a group and listen to what is being said. If an opportunity presents itself, interject a question. (I remember that you did this very well Enrico) Then if the current discussion recognizes your question, in a positive way, you should then be permitted to state your case. This did not happen! You should then wait for another opportunity. There is no rule that if someone shows interest, you can not start you OWN conversation. Just don't keep it on the list - take it to EMail. If something important is discussed in private EMail, by all means, if all concerned agree - put it on the list. This then becomes more than a single observation and then the impact upon the group has more weight. I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you who do make great deals (Sam Grrrrrr....) but it only makes me feel more or less - left out! I usually get one machine (my biggest haul was 12 clone motherboards - not even NEAR on topic!) and then gather all the info I can to get it to work the way it was supposed to. Then every six months I get antsy and fire them all up - just to make sure - and then spend another month getting them all to work right again. And two months paying off the electric bill. BUT - I DO want to know what everybody has! If I need help - I will know who to go to! Right now - I just fire out a question and get the responses. That is because this is a community. Things to remember - every community has a town drunk, a town clown, a town cop, and a town fool. It wouldn'tbe a community without them. BC From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jul 10 21:33:00 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. On a subnote, you all are intelligent people, but man, I think some folks need to lighten up and enjoy the water. But I guess, one part of me just can't relate to, is the "cost of downloading" mail, but I suppose there are situations where that is a problem, me, I have a cablemodem, so im spoiled rotten. As far as knowing what we all have, maybe we should add to our rescue list, a non fancy, listing of what everyone has, not for trading, but just as a reference. Then when I'm at my next flea market...etc. I can say, "Hey, I know John dosn't have a Coco1, maybe he'd like one, it's 2 bucks, Heck, I just grab it." Cya in the funny papers. Bill G. ---------- > From: Brett > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View > Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 8:34 PM > > > First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to > get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt > some feelings - but well hell - that's life! > > First from Enrico - > > > On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this > > mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH > > discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and > > whys that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware > > is narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider > > "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as > > an intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking > > about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? > > No it is NOT wise! However - it is *as you said* understandable. Each > person is a collection of feelings and memories, sometimes refered to > as a *pile of the past*. Each of us has had different experiences in > EVERYTHING we do. No two people view life the EXACT same way. > > Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason > is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting. > (I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two > years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because > someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines. > > The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware. > The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it, > understanding it, and aquiring it. > > Now, if everybody on the list had an Apple, an Amiga, an Altair, an Imsai, > a DEC 11/24, an IBM 360, two Commodore 64s, a BBC, etc,etc,etc THEN we > might sit down and discuss the history. We can discuss it now - but I > would rather be gathering all the hardware I can get my hands on NOW and > think about the history. > > I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that > Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-) > > > As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and > > plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they > > managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your > > hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future > > generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I > > will have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. > > As said before, we are all different. I will gladly discuss the history > of computing. However, if I stray from why I think Turing was a genius > to WOW I JUST GOT MY RL02 TO BOOT MY 11/23 - you will have to forgive me. > I'm just that kind of guy. > > On the other hand tho - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I have seen > the messages from you in the last two weeks and you have not mentioned > *history* at all! You have mentioned the social and psychological impact > of why we collect individual machines - it the same with cars - it the > same with ANY collectable. But it is NOT what I call - History. Nobody > NEEDS a twenty year old computer! Not in the USE sense - they NEED them to > remind them of the good times in the past. That spark of WONDER or GLORY > or FULLFILLMENT they got from that item. The same as ANY collectable. If > you have no sense of wonder or glory or fulfillment - you don't collect > for the sake of collecting - you are collecting for the ECONOMICS of > collecting. > > On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness > > we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism > > of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary > > Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg > [snipped but saved] > > becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped > > from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. > > > > Kai > > Beautiful! I have not (except for Bill's bathroom story) been so > wonderfully entertained and amused by posts to the list than this! > You've gone up a notch in my book. > > Glenn Roberts wrote: > > > > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. > > Enrico replied > > Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just > hardware OR history of the machines as well? > > Pint! Oh point 8-( > I think Bill summed it up - go ahead - but don't *expect* anyone to > discuss it with you. The list hasn't been around long enough to develop > a *personality*. (Did I speak to late!?!?) > > The list doesn't HAVE a POINT. But the people on it do. > > We gather here and there in the faint glow of Cathode Ray Tubes connected > throughout the world by the wonder of modern man - The Internet - and > discuss computers that are older than 10 years. Some will never again > be seen as useful. As some say - "They can have my DEC, when they pry it > from my cold dead hands!" Some will use them, some will sell them, some > will lurk in the dark corners, some will boil to the surface with an > explosion of estatic joy and/or humor, some will solder little > thingmajiggies together, some will droll on and on about some favorite > piece of hardware or software, some will leave and others will come. It's > called "community" - the one thing man has over all other animals. It > isn't easy, and it isn't hard. There is give and take. Those who give > constantly will be consumed, Those that only take - will eventually be > bored. > > The problem - currently - is Enrico. You have not either explained what > you want (I certainly don't understand) or what you want isn't here. If > you can explain - in terms we can understand - I am sure that your desires > can be fullfilled by this list as well as Sam's (sorry Sam - I see you as > a hardware mogul - more more more 8-) It is usually best, I have found, to > walk into a group and listen to what is being said. If an opportunity > presents itself, interject a question. (I remember that you did this very > well Enrico) Then if the current discussion recognizes your question, in > a positive way, you should then be permitted to state your case. This did > not happen! You should then wait for another opportunity. There is no > rule that if someone shows interest, you can not start you OWN > conversation. Just don't keep it on the list - take it to EMail. If > something important is discussed in private EMail, by all means, if all > concerned agree - put it on the list. This then becomes more than a > single observation and then the impact upon the group has more weight. > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you > who do make great deals (Sam Grrrrrr....) but it only makes me feel more > or less - left out! I usually get one machine (my biggest haul was 12 > clone motherboards - not even NEAR on topic!) and then gather all the > info I can to get it to work the way it was supposed to. Then every six > months I get antsy and fire them all up - just to make sure - and then > spend another month getting them all to work right again. And two months > paying off the electric bill. BUT - I DO want to know what everybody has! > If I need help - I will know who to go to! Right now - I just fire out a > question and get the responses. That is because this is a community. > > Things to remember - every community has a town drunk, a town clown, > a town cop, and a town fool. It wouldn'tbe a community without them. > > BC From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 10 21:41:54 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <199707110241.AA28497@world.std.com> From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 21:50:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110241.AA28497@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > of the PC and later the XT! Amazing times, all history and mostly > forgotten. Like I said while on the boardwalk of atlantic sity in '76 > "crazy, who'd have thought I'd be pushing a asr33 down the boardwalk?". What a fantastic line! I love it! Is someone compiling a list of all the great quotes that occasionally bless this discussion? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 10 22:44:05 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View References: Message-ID: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't this what collecting is all about? From jrice at texoma.net Thu Jul 10 22:58:21 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View References: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Message-ID: <33C5AF5D.ECF1544C@texoma.net> Marvin wrote: > Brett wrote: > > > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends > Haul". > > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the > neat > > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of > you > > I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one > thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it > helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the > future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available > > out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good > information > and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." > Isn't > this what collecting is all about? I've been guilty of posting my "Weekend's Haul" a couple of times. I like to know what other people find and what the are paying for it. Kind of a reality check against what I find around Dallas-Ft Worth. If somebody gets something I really want, I might write them and see if they want to trade or if it's really something they really want. I sometimes pickup something that I don't collect so I can help someone else out or trade for something I really want or "need". :-) I'm sorry if this offend someone, but I like to know who comes across unique hardware and even if I envy them, I'm also proud for them. As for the philosophy wars, if I don't really care about the "soul or zen" of computing, I don't have to read those posts....that is what a "delete" button is for! From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jul 10 19:20:00 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707110419.AAA29130@mail.cgocable.net> > Brett wrote: > > > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you I do not get bothered by this "boasting" I view this "This Weekend Haul" as a good reference point in which is how hard to find or easy to get as well as prices. I hauled in three compaqs recently. One is Deskpro 386 with either 287/386 coprocessor board version, both SLT laptop series, soon they will break the 1998/2000 year mark for 10 year limit. SLT 286 cost me 50 and SLT 386s/20 cost 120 with docking station. Planning to use them. My LTE 386s/20 is only 3 years away to 10 years in design only but only 4 years old since I bought it as discontnuined sale up for my use. My reasoning behind is I love them and it's quality, way it looked and operation. I have a IBM VGA 9" mono behind me is over 10 year old and still used as a bench monitor and nice thing, I babied it well to have no burn in on it, 150 bux *ouch!* used. Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well. Recently a association already issued several critations warning buyers not to buy certain models from them. Oh well. Back to subject. :) My electronic TTYs, Minicom 4 two of them are based on 8 bit microcontrollers and still speak bandot 5 bit via built in phone coupler. I use them for phone calls via relay services for hearing people otherwise, I do need relay if calling someone who has TTY on other end. Both of them are over 10 years old and still living. :) That shows 8 bitters stuff won't go away. :) Also one or few 8 bit microcontrollers are onboard Pathfinder and maybe on the rover on the Mars right now. A side note, 486 machines that came out in '89 will make to 10 years old limit too! What!? Just curious, what else besides 10yr limit rule, just to remind myself. :) Jason D. > > I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one > thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it > helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the > future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available > out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information > and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't > this what collecting is all about? > From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:21:31 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask > my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played > with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my > dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. Me too - Oops - I better write some more 8-) > As far as knowing what we all have, maybe we should add to our rescue list, > a non fancy, listing of what everyone has, not for trading, but just as a > reference. Then when I'm at my next flea market...etc. I can say, "Hey, I > know John dosn't have a Coco1, maybe he'd like one, it's 2 bucks, Heck, I > just grab it." > > Cya in the funny papers. Well, I, for one, kinda thought that is what it is all about. Kinda list some place what we might be looking for and then if someone finds one tell everyone else about it. Problem is - too many people want the same thing! Then (flame never on) Enrico started the whole shipping thing. What good is it to have people looking for some little prize if when they find it - they don't want to ship it to you??? So Isaac and I have started - a little - on a Shipping FAQ - not only how to ship from the cheapest to the quickest but also HOW to pack. I mean even the BIG stuff - like a DEC via South Africa 8-) I even started talking to U.S. Customs to find out their view on shipping *junk* back and forth over the Big Pond. (Still waiting to hear back 8-) But this has to be done on both sides. Then there is the whole Rescue List idea - what good is it to rescue ANYTHING from the trash man if you are not willing to ship it to a new home??? Oh, so you ONLY want rescue what you want? That isn't the idea I heard, but then I hear things my way 8-) As far as *John* and his Coco - heck ya $2 for the box and $14 for the shipping. Nobody expect you to pay either - I don't think. But then I don't remember what a whole CoCo looks like and I don't know how to even boot one up. Do you *trust* me to pick up a CoCo for you? Especially if it costs you $16 for a burned out hulk? No not me - the computer 8-) It raises all sorts of interesting questions. Maybe (via the Encyclopedia page) I would find out what one looks like. Something about it - that's why I started it 8-) [Boy am I verbal tonight!] BC From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 23:24:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask > my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played > with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my > dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. I also collect for the sake of collecting. But I also collect stuff that I specifcally don't want but know I can make money off of. I won't try to justify it because I don't have to. But I will explain that it pays the collection bills (no not my outstanding debt but the debt that this hobby can put you in if you go ape-shit like I did). I can pick stuff up dirt cheap at swap meets and thrift stores and sell it on the internet for enough profit to break even on the hobby. It was the only way I could get my wife to tolerate it. (Just in case you're wondering I make it a point to sell stuff at cost on this discussion because, let's face it, we're all friends, and I don't like profiting from friends). (No, seriously). I don't think anyone should be embarrassed to admit that they sell classic stuff. Those who sell are basically performing a service to those who don't have access to what they are selling! This hobby takes time and energy. I fully intend to turn my hobby into one that will support itself. With stuff like my Vintage Computer Festival as well as my ultimate plans to become a dealer in "exotic antique computer hardware" (yeah right), I expect to start pulling in a little extra dough to make for a positive cash flow. Can't help it...it's the entrepreneur in me. I turn everything I do into a money machine. > On a subnote, you all are intelligent people, but man, I think some folks > need to lighten up and enjoy the water. But I guess, one part of me just Yep. Everyone just smoke a bowl and chill. > As far as knowing what we all have, maybe we should add to our rescue list, > a non fancy, listing of what everyone has, not for trading, but just as a > reference. Then when I'm at my next flea market...etc. I can say, "Hey, I > know John dosn't have a Coco1, maybe he'd like one, it's 2 bucks, Heck, I > just grab it." That's what I love about this discussion group. I can almost ALWAYS get information on a system I am interested in. Its a terrific resource and I value it, and I hope I am putting as much into it as I am taking out. As for the "what-I-have" resource list, I think this is a good idea but I know what a daunting task it can be to catalog your stuff, especially when you have a large collection. However, I am almost done doing just that with my collection. So far, I have a database that contains every singular console, peripheral, and board that is in my collection. Eventually I will HTML-ize it and put it up in a web page for people to browse. Items that are up for trade will be indicated and it will make it easy for people to trade with me and/or just see what I got. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:40:05 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110241.AA28497@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > >From Brett who doth spake: > > Collecting is! Ya but did I get it right?? > > Things to remember - every community has a town drunk, a town clown, > > a town cop, and a town fool. It wouldn'tbe a community without them. > > You forgot the town bag lady.... ;-) Allison, I read everything I find from you in every newsgroup I read. No joke. You are prolific 8-) > Seriously I've put may posts here anout the history and lineages of many > of the old machines. I collect, but I admit is has to make some sense to > me as in useful or have some specific linkage to my place in this > history. But this is a collectors list 8-) We all collect from that which we know. [snip] > Another of the battles than and now are the OS wars and the church of the > highest CPU. There is history in that. Todays machine are built on that. But is that a *good Thing*? It seems with Wintel anyway - you gain in speed with a horrendous memory loss. As someone stated - Loading WordStar under CP/M is blazingly fast - compared to Word in Office under Win95 8-) > Now from me, a woman that uses a Northstar* I souped up in in the very > early 80s to this day, along with an ampro LB, SB180, kaypro and a PX-8 > to do real work. I have memory of porting CP/M-1.4 and 2.2 for my > hardware. I also keep PDP-11s why? A personal thing about classicaly > good archecture that still runs rings around dos boxen. I muck with > PDP-8s too as there is a machine that is the minimalist design that > proves it could be done in less, but makes you work hard to program it > efficiently. Well, that's true. I always wondered why DEC couldn't sell PDP-11's - but then with that lousy chip set and poor software 8-) I still get pissed thinking about how DEC Marketing has messed up every attempt to get into the *home* market! > History, I've met Gary, and George and the boys at Intersystems and a few > others to boot. I wrote warm letters of annoyance to Gates, Allen and a > few others too before they were to big to not want my money. I remember > the guys that made claims and then ran with the cash never delivering. > I watched MITS rise with a calculator You mean the the 7440 I have on the desk next to me? > and then get swallowed by Pertec > when they out ran their cash, it was the story of the time. ^ forgot an 's' > I jumped on > the UCSD Pascal P-system becuase it wasn't Basic in '79. I was using > CP/M as it was a real OS for the systems as everything else was not yet. > I started an 8086 design in 1979 that would in 81 eclipse the performance > of the PC and later the XT! Amazing times, all history and mostly > forgotten. Not if you tell people about it! > Like I said while on the boardwalk of atlantic sity in '76 > "crazy, who'd have thought I'd be pushing a asr33 down the boardwalk?". > That was right after hearing Gary talk about v1.3 and the introduction to > 1.4.... and think it was only 21 years ago. Something isn't it. You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we all have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? BC From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:49:47 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Brett wrote: > > > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you > > I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one > thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it > helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the > future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available > out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information > and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't > this what collecting is all about? That is why I chose the word *perturbed* 8-) And if your in California with Sam 8-) there is nothing left! Really, I don't *enjoy* reading them but you are right. I think if someone actually made a study, you could get some interesting geographical and soci-economical data from the "Weekend Haul" posts. But I find that the rules of supply and demand still prevail. If there is only ONE TI99/4A for sale in town - the guy gets what he wants for it! But - maybe down in Texas - there may be 20 forsale and you can shop around. I love my computers but - money - well I ain't got enough 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:57:00 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AF5D.ECF1544C@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, James L. Rice wrote: > I've been guilty of posting my "Weekend's Haul" a couple of times. I > like to know what other people find and what the are paying for it. > Kind of a reality check against what I find around Dallas-Ft Worth. If > somebody gets something I really want, I might write them and see if > they want to trade or if it's really something they really want. I > sometimes pickup something that I don't collect so I can help someone > else out or trade for something I really want or "need". :-) Guilty? You are only guilty if they catch you 8-) AND can prove it! I agree with the reasons. Just - how come all of YOU are so lucky??? > I'm sorry if this offend someone, but I like to know who comes across > unique hardware and even if I envy them, I'm also proud for them. No! That's why I used the word *perturbed* 8-) No offense taken. > As for the philosophy wars, if I don't really care about the "soul or > zen" of computing, I don't have to read those posts....that is what a > "delete" button is for! Ah, but you are missing some of the fun 8-) I HOPE you read Kai's post! If you did - but didn't understand - maybe you should start reading some of those posts 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 11 00:10:53 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110419.AAA29130@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > I do not get bothered by this "boasting" I view this "This Weekend > Haul" as a good reference point in which is how hard to find or easy > to get as well as prices. Oooh another good word - bothered - I will use that later 8-) ["boasting" snipped 8-)] > my use. My reasoning behind is I love them and it's quality, way it > looked and operation. I have a IBM VGA 9" mono behind me is over 10 > year old and still used as a bench monitor and nice thing, I babied > it well to have no burn in on it, 150 bux *ouch!* used. > > Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for > quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq > and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well. > Recently a association already issued several critations warning > buyers not to buy certain models from them. Boy - DO NOT get me started on THIS subject! > Oh well. Back to subject. :) Good 8-) > My electronic TTYs, Minicom 4 two of them are based on 8 bit > microcontrollers and still speak bandot 5 bit via built in phone > coupler. I use them for phone calls via relay services for hearing > people otherwise, I do need relay if calling someone who has TTY on > other end. Both of them are over 10 years old and still living. :) > > That shows 8 bitters stuff won't go away. :) That is a given. 8 bitters rule. Even 16 bitters rule. Tho I do have some 4 bitters - they don't rule - they just barely survive 8-) There are probably more 8 bit MPU and CPU's in existance now than Intel CPU's. They are EVERYWHERE. Kind of like Candid Camera. Where you least expect it. Cars, phones, thermostats, elevators, games, man you name it - SOMEONE put a 6502/8085/6809 into it! > Also one or few 8 bit microcontrollers are onboard Pathfinder and maybe > on the rover on the Mars right now. THERE'S one classic I want to go for - Who's with me men??? We have until what - 2007 and then it's ours! Classic Computer Rescue Sqaud to the - huh - Rescue! (Scary thing is - may be we COULD go get it!) By the way - anybody into LDRS? > A side note, 486 machines that came out in '89 will make to 10 years > old limit too! What!? > > Just curious, what else besides 10yr limit rule, just to remind > myself. :) Is there another rule? BC From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 11 00:24:57 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View References: Message-ID: <33C5C3A9.3059@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > As for the "what-I-have" resource list, I think this is a good idea but I > know what a daunting task it can be to catalog your stuff, especially > when you have a large collection. However, I am almost done doing just Daunting is not quite the word that comes to my mind. I have about 1000 square feet of things I have collected over the years. Having just started to catalog it, I figure it will take probably close to 4 weeks of full time activity (and I can't spend full time on it) to sort, identify, and catalog the stuff. Of course, it is also becomes like Christmas every day that I go through things :)! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 01:25:55 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >Brett wrote: >> >> I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". >> I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat >> stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you > >I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one >thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it >helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the >future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available >out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information >and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't >this what collecting is all about? I couldn't agree more, one of the reasons I'm here is I'm hoping to find out what fair prices for the stuff I'm getting are. Especially now that I'm starting to look for the odder systems :^) I for one don't mind hearing about this weekends haul! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 01:20:04 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: >Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask >my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played >with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my >dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. I like this answere! I collect because it's fun, but it's even more fun when people are at work about their computers to mention a couple of mine. Like how I've got an Apple ][e (nonenhanced) set up to dial into work. It just blows their minds. Besides I like playing with the various OS's even though they are incredably basic, and some are BASIC :^) Also it's fun to see what kind of work you can get out of them! Then there is the obvious, I wanted them when I was younger and couldn't afford them :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jul 11 01:52:08 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: C65 and other commie oddballs... Message-ID: OK OK I can't take it anymore... Being partial to commodores, I can't help but DESIRE to own a C65! Anyone got one? Or better yet, anyone got one they'd sell???? On a side note, I was re-reading a review of the Amiga 4000 and the article mentioned a commodore palmtop that was based on a "PC/CHIP" cpu, had 2 megs of memory and ran Microsoft Works or somehting like that (Oh yeah, it had 2 PCMCIA slots too) I know this (probably) never made it to production but I also know that many a freaky contraption was hauled from the dumpsters when commodore went belly up... (C65's, 128 Laptops, etc.) So, anyone got any oddball commie stuff? LeS more@crazy.rutgers.edu PS I missed the supposed free-for-all that took place outside the commodore building in West Chester when they folded. I was just there not too long ago; apparently QVC has gutted the building.... :( From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Fri Jul 11 03:21:31 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: News from Apple References: Message-ID: <33C5ED0B.2ED1@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs > has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll > re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? > > (sorry, mostly off-topic but, hey, it's STEVE JOBS!!!) Offtopic? I though it has been made CLEAR that HISTORY is part of the ANYTHING of this list and therefore much to the topic......or is yet another of my English language misundertanding? enrico From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Fri Jul 11 04:02:37 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: book review Message-ID: <33C5F6AD.50CE@Brighton-UK.com> If you like the History of Personal Computers you might like to read my review of the Stan Veit book I just received from him. You will find it at: I know that the book has been published in 1993 but some of you (like me) might not have been aware of it till now. Stan has seen all the personal computer revolution from the inside as he opened the second computer store in the USA and the first on the East Coast (New York). Please forgive my spelling mistakes.... Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 11 08:00:55 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: c16/Plus4 Message-ID: <199707110901_MC2-1AB1-A032@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >User support here was either through PLUG (Plus/4 Users Group), or Jim Hehl in Anchorage. Plug provided a list of European distributors and Jim was into program conversion (Such popular 64 programs like Speedscript were converted).< Has anybody heard from Jim Hehl recently? Last I heard, he was burned out of his cabin by an Alaskan wildfire! That was probably 1-2 years ago now. Does he still produce for Jack Vanderwhite's publication? >The major bummer about European Plus/4 stuff is alot of it is compressed and locked into PAL mode and thus unviewable on NTSC displays. (Jim & Jack Vandewrwhite had converted some though, I think they are available on funet.fi's FTP., I think the series is called 'ceepee4' something...)< If this stuff is available somewhere, I'd be interested in a full address. Gil Parrish < From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 11 08:00:52 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: <199707110901_MC2-1AB1-A02F@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Remember, there are 400 of these HHCs available. Tell a friend!< Sorry, I just got here. What the heck are you talking about? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 11 08:27:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <199707111327.AA20567@world.std.com> > From: Brett > Well, that's true. I always wondered why DEC couldn't sell PDP-11's - b > then with that lousy chip set and poor software 8-) I still get pissed > thinking about how DEC Marketing has messed up every attempt to get int > the *home* market! You're pissed! I lost my job with them because they couldn't make money from a dimond mine! > You mean the the 7440 I have on the desk next to me? Never remembered the model number but likely, yes! > Not if you tell people about it! Drat you caught me. > You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we al I wish, I'm old enough. I finished college before the 8080 was introduced. > have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - > What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? Never happend to me. ;-) I get you have those, in there, and they all work? Allison From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 11 08:52:35 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans Message-ID: Jim: >>Sadly it gets a bit more contorted than that... Ed Roberts sold MITS to >>Pertec (who proceeded to largely run it into the ground B^{ ), who was >>then purchased by Triumph-Adler of Germany. >>So, it can be assumed that TA now owns all of the rights to things >>MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them on occasion on related matters >>and have gotten no response of any kind to date. Thanks for the history. One could probably claim that since the platform is no longer supported and that efforts to contact the rightful owner have failed, so long as we don't get "stupid" about it, we should be able to archive the docs...I hope. I'd hate to lose this important piece of information (although I will hold onto it and provide pages to members upon request). What a pain this copyright law is! Jim, re: the Hero 1000/2000 robots, where can I find Mobile Ed. Productions?? ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 11 08:52:28 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: Allison: >>Seriously I've put may posts here anout the history and lineages of many of the old machines. I collect, but I admit is has to make some sense to me as in useful or have some specific linkage to my place in this >>history. This is so true. In fact, this is how I started collecting. Admittedly, I don't remember many of the early computers; I was too young to remember any of it first-hand. When the Altair came out, I was 8; Bill Gates was 20. I only got to "know" Gary Kildall and Ed Roberts through the books that I read as background for my MBA business case on Microsoft and the computer software industry. Back then, I used the Commodores. In high school, I used {shudder} the Mac (and understood that better). In college, I used PCs, but didn't understand the architecture. I started collecting Commodores because this is the machine that I grew-up on. Then, it snowballed. The Tandy Model 1; Model 100; Datamaster; Apple IIs. Now, almost anything. Since I'm behind the knowledge power curve, I have a lot of catching-up to do! I love hearing about other people's hauls. It inspires me. It makes me want to take back more room in the basement than what was alotted to me by "the boss." It's about the elegant simplicity of design; the basic, nuts-and-bolts usefulness. It's about runnung an OS and an application in 4k of RAM. It's all about preserving the early computer history, so that people like me, people on the fringes of early computers, people who know nothing about where their P233 came from, can see what it was like in the stone-age of computing. Just my $0.02. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET e-mail: rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From s-ware at nwu.edu Fri Jul 11 09:13:01 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Chicago mini rescue opportunity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The store where I found the Micro-Expander earlier this week has continued to clean out its old location and place systems out in front of the store free for the taking. There is currently a system in front of the store that is too large for me to handle, given my small car and limited apartment storage space. If any other Chicago area collectors are interested, the system is located outside the old location of Sol's Computer Works, at 2820 North Sheffield (about 1 block north of Diversey). It's a Cummins Allison 3400 keyscan system in a full-size rack cabinet with a 9-track tape drive. It seems reasonably complete. I did pick up yesterday's free system for my collection. It's a pdp11/10, complete with 16K words of core memory, an rk05j disk drive, and an rx01 dual floppy drive. It supposedly worked when last used, although I'm going to have to patch together some cables that were cut by the people who claimed the rack before I got there. There was no documentation, however. I'll probably spend the weekend looking through the PDP11 information that is available on the Web - there seems to be quite a bit. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource UNIXgeek "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." - RFC 1925 From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 11 09:45:43 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5C3A9.3059@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > As for the "what-I-have" resource list, I think this is a good idea but I > > know what a daunting task it can be to catalog your stuff, especially > > when you have a large collection. However, I am almost done doing just You gentlemen are completeing right... itemizing all of one's items in a collector can be a very difficult task. But here's the tip. Start early in your collections life. That's what I have done... started my inventory years ago, and now whenever I get new things I just 'pop' them into the computer listing. Of course, I still get behind (way behind?) on my listing... and it's grown to 68 pages of 8 point print!! CORD COSLOR > > Daunting is not quite the word that comes to my mind. I have about 1000 > square feet of things I have collected over the years. Having just > started to catalog it, I figure it will take probably close to 4 weeks > of full time activity (and I can't spend full time on it) to sort, > identify, and catalog the stuff. Of course, it is also becomes like > Christmas every day that I go through things :)! > From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 11 09:54:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! Message-ID: Ok Folks, here it is...the final count. Any last minute additions will be accomodated up until tonight so act soon. E-mail Name Qty ------------------------------ ----------------- --- dastar@crl.com Sam Ismail 4 allisonp@world.std.com Allison Parent 3 jeff@unix.aardvarkol.com Jeff Hellige 2 KFergason@aol.com Kelly Fergason 3 tuck6@ibm.net Gary Tucker 2 sinasohn@crl.com Roger Sinasohn 5 gram@cnct.com Ward Griffiths 3 bcoakley@teleport.com Ben Coakley 1 pcoad@crl.com Paul Coad 2 jimw@agora.rdrop.com Jim Willing 3 rcini@msn.com Richard Cini 3 hans1@filan00.grenoble.hp.com Hans Pufal 5 ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca Doug Spence 3 jott@maddog.ee.nd.edu John Ott 1 bwit@pobox.com Bob Withers 4 frank@5points.com Frank Peseckis 2 zmerch@northernway.net Roger Merchberger 3 ursa@idir.net ursa 4 rws@ais.net Richard Schauer 2 stuart@colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Brian Stuart 3 jlodoen@mega.megamed.com Jeff Lodoen 1 s-ware@nwu.edu Scott Ware 3 SUPRDAVE@aol.com SUPRDAVE@aol.com 1 jrice@texoma.net James Rice 3 bluesky6@netcom.com Benedict Chong 2 dynasoar@mindspring.com Kirk Scott 2 jolminkh@c2.telstra-mm.net.au Hans Olminkhof 2 mtapley@swri.edu Mark Tapley 1 scm@smorang.enm.maine.edu Stacy Morang 2 danjo@xnet.com Brett 2 haley@galstar.com Curtis Haley 1 george.lin@documentum.com George Lin 2 idavis@comland.com Isaac Davis 2 fmc@reanimators.org Frank McConnell 10 mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu Matthew Sayler 1 gpine@popmail.mcs.net Gerald Pine 2 kai@microsoft.com Kai Kaltenbach 2 jdgale@romulus.ncsc.mil Jeremiah Gale 1 tedbird@netcom.com Ted Birdsell 2 broswell@syssrc.com Bob Roswell 1 foxnhare@goldrush.com Larry Anderson 2 Current Total: 103 If you're not on here, better e-mail to me soon. If you tried e-mailing me and your message bounced, send it to the group discussion and you will be forgiven. If your e-mail address as shown is incorrect please send me your correct address. I also have gotten quite a bit of interest from my internet sale ad and as a result the price per each for all of you will likely be pushed down. If you don't know what the hell I'm blathering about, this is in regards to the Panasonic HandHeld computers (about 400) that we are making a deal on. It was a handheld unit which featured: 6502 processor 8K RAM (the "top-of-the-line" model) 3 slots for 8K program EPROM on-board 40-column thermal printer (paper can still be found allegedly) 26 character x 1 line display Full "QWERTY" keyboard FORTH-like language in ROM called "SNAP" Measures 9" x 3.5" These units also have: Custom built tray to hold 10 additional 8K EPROMS Tray also housed both computer and printer to make one compact unit Some MCM 68674 8K EPROMs with programs on them AC Adaptor Current price will be < $10 per unit! If you would like to reserve one (or two or three or ten), e-mail me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 11 08:59:12 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" Message-ID: <199707111602.JAA23351@mx2.u.washington.edu> Speaking of video games, I have 2 different sources which say that the first video game was 1)Pong 2) Asteroids. I personally believe asteroids, as the game (in my recollectopn, at least) used vector graphics, which should be faster and simpler than Pong's raster image. ...Or am I all wet? Anyone know? (Trivia -- What does "Pac" in Pac-man stand for? answer on request.) From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 11 08:49:02 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: classic software for sale Message-ID: <199707111602.JAA20970@mx5.u.washington.edu> Please send me a pricelist. Also, where (physically) are you? I'm in northern Ohio. Thx Manney From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jul 11 12:05:17 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: <199707111602.JAA23351@mx2.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jul 11, 97 09:59:12 am Message-ID: <9707111605.AA06009@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 458 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/ec39d2a0/attachment.ksh From KFergason at aol.com Fri Jul 11 11:16:27 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: farewell and COCO question and Definicon stuff and simpson meter. Message-ID: <970711121521_505572322@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-11 10:29:07 EDT, you write: << On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and whys that led to it. >> I am sorry, but I was not aware that this list was about collecting classic computers. I thought this list was about classic computers, of which collecting is a part. I am not interested (well, not as much) in the "hows and whys". I want to find them, use them, fix them. I don't really collect them simply to collect. You might argue that I had to collect one to use it, but thats not necessarily the case. I could have bought my Kaypro new and simply still be using it. If this list IS about COLLECTING, then I will unsubscribe myself as well. On something more hardware related, I have a Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Controller, Cat. No 26-3129. I am assuming it is a disk controller, but can someone give me some confirmation on that? Also, if someone still needs the definicon board stuff, I finally got my PC back together, so I can read the 5.25" disks. And while I am babbling, not really classic computer, but classic test equipment related, I have a Simpson 303 that I have never been able to get to work. It seems to need the battery, and it is a rechargeable model. Kelly From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 11 11:02:13 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:52 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! Message-ID: <199707111622.JAA20620@mx4.u.washington.edu> Please reserve 2 handhelds for me -- thanks. Manney@nwohio.com From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jul 11 12:06:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Neither - The first arcade videogame was Nutting & Associates Computer Space, designed by Nolan Bushnell in 1971, who later designed Pong (1972) with the profits, and founded Atari. The first home videogame was the Magnavox Odyssey 100, in 1972. The first ROM cartridge-based home video game title is co-owned by the Fairchild Channel F and the RCA Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home video game was the GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex in 1982. Kai > ---------- > From: PG Manney > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 6:59 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: "Bally Astrocade" > > Speaking of video games, I have 2 different sources which say that the > first video game was > > 1)Pong > 2) Asteroids. > > I personally believe asteroids, as the game (in my recollectopn, at > least) > used vector graphics, which should be faster and simpler than Pong's > raster > image. > > ...Or am I all wet? Anyone know? > > (Trivia -- What does "Pac" in Pac-man stand for? answer on request.) > From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 11 12:24:30 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Paper Tape Message-ID: <199707111324_MC2-1AB3-595E@compuserve.com> As most of you probably know, some of the old printing terminal (teletype) units could utilize paper tape; the tape could be punched with a program, and hence used as a program storage media. I'd be interested in getting a bit of the tape; not real long (say, 4-6 feet), just for show-and-tell purposes. "Already punched" would be better than "unpunched" ("unpunched" might just look like a roll of adding machine paper-- big deal), but I'd take either. If somebody has some of this to spare, please drop me a note e-mail; I'd appreciate it. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 12:20:18 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33c76ad8.3720871@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:06:44 -0700, you wrote: %Neither - The first arcade videogame was Nutting & Associates Computer %Space, designed by Nolan Bushnell in 1971, who later designed Pong %(1972) with the profits, and founded Atari. The first home videogame %was the Magnavox Odyssey 100, in 1972. The first ROM cartridge-based %home video game title is co-owned by the Fairchild Channel F and the RCA %Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first %vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by %Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home %video game was the GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex in 1982. Recently, I found the history of video games at one of zdnet's sites : www.videogamespot.com/features/universal/hov/hov01.html where hov01.html can go up to hov10.html Don't know if the link is still value tho'. Ben From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jul 11 13:32:48 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <199707111324_MC2-1AB3-595E@compuserve.com> from "Gil Parrish" at Jul 11, 97 01:24:30 pm Message-ID: <9707111732.AA06309@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/eec744e0/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Jul 11 13:05:00 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first > vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by > Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my roommate playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint James Infirmary in Sunnyvale. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From scott at saskatoon.com Fri Jul 11 12:58:33 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >> Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first >> vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by >> Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home > >I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my roommate >playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh >out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint James >Infirmary in Sunnyvale. I remember that machine too. (I don't remember the year, though.) It had a wonderful sub-woofer in the cabinet that you could feel when you hit the thrust button. It did take a while to get used to the controls though, five buttons, 'rotate left', 'rotate right', 'thrust', 'fire', 'hyperspace'. The interesting thing was you didn't play against the machine... only against another person. IIRC, you were given a fixed amount of time for your money, rather than '10 lives' or one game or whatever. ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 11 12:59:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33c76ad8.3720871@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anything earlier or other type of device? From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jul 11 13:03:00 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057AD4B9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Yep, that was Cinematronic's excellent vector version of Space War, released in 1978. It was two-player only, and had several innovations, including the ability to shoot off part of your opponent's ship, and the selection of multiple game options at the start of your game (e.g. positive/negative gravity, invisible sun, etc.) The upright cabinet was huge, almost double-wide, but I would dearly love to come up with the cocktail version (http://brain.usask.ca/arcade/spacewar.htm) It'd be a nice complement to my Computer Space. Kai > ---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 11:05 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first > > vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by > > Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home > > I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my > roommate > playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were > fresh > out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint > James > Infirmary in Sunnyvale. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 11 13:03:04 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: <199707111602.JAA23351@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711140304.006b3538@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1888 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/b3518374/attachment.bin From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 11 13:00:43 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711140043.006b3538@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 05:06 PM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Neither - The first arcade videogame was Nutting & Associates Computer >Space, designed by Nolan Bushnell in 1971, who later designed Pong >(1972) with the profits, and founded Atari. The first home videogame >was the Magnavox Odyssey 100, in 1972. The first ROM cartridge-based >home video game title is co-owned by the Fairchild Channel F and the RCA >Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first >vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by >Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home >video game was the GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex in 1982. > >Kai IIRC, Odyssey 100 was a simple pong unit. The one you're refering to was just "Odyssey." James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 11 13:03:22 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711140322.006b4784@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 06:05 PM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >> Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first >> vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by >> Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home > >I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my roommate >playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh >out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint James >Infirmary in Sunnyvale. >-- >Ward Griffiths You are correct. Space War was the world's first vector game in '78. Lunar Lander was Atari's first vector game. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jul 11 14:24:20 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jul 11, 97 10:59:15 am Message-ID: <9707111824.AA06615@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1131 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/434c6d2f/attachment.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 11 13:24:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <199707111824.AA05818@world.std.com> > From: Marvin > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle > (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the > modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anythin > earlier or other type of device? Early modems were mostly acoustical as it was a way of avoiding the BELL TELEPHONE CO tarriff and interconnection restrictions. There were also direct connect bell103 is well known of them. They go way back, to the old rtty machines used during WWII maybe before. Yes, those would have vacuum tubes. The modem eliminators were rs232 or current loop to rs422 which could be used up to several thousand feet or more. These were not modems per se but level translators to a format that worked well on hard copper pairs at what would be then called high speeds (4800 ->38.4++). Allison From william at ans.net Fri Jul 11 13:39:35 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707111839.AA15270@interlock.ans.net> > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle > (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the > modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anything > earlier or other type of device? The earliest modems were actually for radio work, and started sometime in the 1930's. By the end of World War Two, FSK radio modems were used with radioteletype by the government. I have the receiver half of an early FSK modem, called model FRA by the U.S.Navy. Made by RCA, it is probably heavier than just about any home computer ever made (Of course the actual radio transmitter tips the scale at 1100 pounds). The transmitter half of the FSK set is just about as big, yet still eludes me. Later, both Teletype and Kleinschmidt teleprinters could be fitted with modems, either for radio or telephone use. The first ones are still fairly huge, but use transistors. Western Union was an early user of telephone modems, for use with type 33 teleprinters. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jul 11 14:00:50 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: IBM minis still humming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707111900.AA16959@interlock.ans.net> Yesterday, I finally received the chance to examine a family of computers that has been bugging me for a while. In the mid to late 1970s, IBM introduced a family of minis designed to kill the PDP-11, or so they thought. The series/1 is a bit different, in that they are not designed to run COBOL applications in a business environment. They are also very modular, something that other IBM offerings are not. I saw about 25 of the big beasts, all humming away at thier duties, and of course, now want one (love at first sight, it happens alot with collectors). Unfortunately, I am still lacking just about all technical information about the family. Has anyone on the list ever use one of these things? What operating system did it use? Just how good (or bad, probably) are these things? Oh, sorry about repeating the modem information! William Donzelli william@ans.net From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Jul 11 14:02:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <01IL40QDUZ5UB63OUK@cc.usu.edu> > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jul 9 21:54:58 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Jul-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >E-mail Name Qty >------------------------------ ----------------- --- >dastar@crl.com Sam Ismail 4 >allisonp@world.std.com Allison Parent 3 >jeff@unix.aardvarkol.com Jeff Hellige 2 Sam, Just wanted to point out that my email address above is wrong. It should be: jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com Thanks! Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 15:53:10 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Old Microprocessors Message-ID: <33c69abc.15979193@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Some days ago, I mentioned that there was a UK company that used to advertise old microprocessors like 9900, Z800x, 32032 and other stuff. I've just dug up my old issues of Elektor and found the company. It's Viewcom, at Plaistow in London. Perhaps Enrico might want to check if this company still exists and its tel/fax number: I've been looking for a 10MHz Z8001 (the one found in Ciarcia's Trump card project in Byte). The April 1991 issue of Elektor advertises Viewcom as carrying stuff like the 9900, 9995 (both TI 16-bit microP). There's even the AMD 9511 which (if I'm not mistaken) is one of the first math copros for microcomputers. Interestingly, there's another ad. for a little machine called the midi65, which uses a 6501 (the number was re-used by Rockwell for a dual-65C02-on-a-chip implementation) with LCD display. Of course, then there are the usual surplus ads from Display Electronics (VAX11/750 for 3900 pounds sterling and the Tatung PC2000 a big brother of the CP/M Einstein for 299 pounds sterling) and J&N BULL Electrical (which offers an Atari 65XE computer for 45 pounds sterling). Ben From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri Jul 11 16:47:36 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057AD4B9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3E97909704D2@ifrsys.com> Kai Wrote: > The upright cabinet was huge, almost double-wide, but I would dearly > love to come up with the cocktail version > (http://brain.usask.ca/arcade/spacewar.htm) It'd be a nice complement > to my Computer Space. ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ I played Computer Space when I was a kid. What's inside? Is it random logic, or a CPU based design? Jeff From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jul 11 16:41:58 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: Marvin's message of Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:59:15 -0700 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33c76ad8.3720871@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707112141.OAA15169@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Marvin writes: > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I have a few, but not what I would call "early". An old Omnitec 701A (s/n 3) acoustic coupler that I used to use with a Teletype ca. 1978 (still worked when I tried it about a year ago, too). Also some S-100 modems, including a couple each of PMMI MM-103 and Hayes Micromodem 100, and what I am guessing is an earlier (1978) effort by D. C. Hayes called the 80-103A. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. It depends. They may also provide clock signals for synchronous DTEs (as would ordinarily be done by the modems). -Frank McConnell From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Fri Jul 11 18:54:57 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <01IL40QDUZ5UB63OUK@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... Hmm; I just picked one of these up with an incomplete Apple ][plus system that I haven't yet had time to muck with, short of cleaning it up a bit. What's special about it? ok -R From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 17:54:54 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <2536@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I've got a few (I'm interested in telegraph and telephone history as well as computers, but my main collection is computer-related). It's not a large part of my collection, though. In the UK, modems were _rented_ from the GPO (== post office, who also ran the telephone system) at one time, like all other telephone equipment. Some of these modems are interesting technically - the earlier ones were about 14" square and 6" high, and contained plug-in modules for the PSU, modulator, demodulator, and controller. It was all discrete components (no chips), and some of the control used PO 3000-style relays (similar to the ones used in telephone exchanges). The demodulator was strange. It filtered the incoming signal (a multi-stage LC filter housed in a tobacco-tin sized box!), and then mixed it with a local oscillator to shift the frequency up. The output of that was filtered again, and fed to a 2-diode discriminator. The output of that was buffered and became the data output. It was basically a superhet FM receiver modified to work at the right frequency. Another strange GPO modem was the 13A. It's a 1" (approx) high plinth that was fitted under a Type 746 'phone that had extra 'voice' and 'data' buttons fitted. I know nothing about the circuitry in that one, but it's a rather neat unit. There were also things called 'isolation boxes' that were used to prevent faults in the user's equipment damaging the modem (or worse still the 'phone line). Typically they contained a number of zener diodes from each line of the RS232 connector to ground (2 diodes in inverse series per line), and some 50mA fuses in series with each line that would blow if there was overvoltage on that line. Such things are probably useless now, but I like to have all the bits of a classic setup, including little details such as this. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe The term 'modem eliminator' normally meant 'null modem cable', and was a passive device. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 18:31:14 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2538@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to > get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt > some feelings - but well hell - that's life! Is it time to start a classic computers meta-list to discuss what should be on the classic computers list ? > Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason > is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting. > (I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two > years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because > someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines. Absolutely. In some cases, the number of remaining machines of a particular type can be counted on the fingers of one hand - in unary :-). If we don't grab them when we can, then information on these machines will be lost for ever. > > The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware. > The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it, > understanding it, and aquiring it. I think I disagree here. It's a lot easier to figure out the history of a machine while the people who used it for real work (and even better the people who designed/built it) are still alive, and can still remember the machine. So there's some urgency here, but less than the 'Here's a 1-off prototype that will go in the skip if you don't get it today' type of thing. A lot of computer history, particularly over the last 20 or so years has not (IMHO) been adequately recorded. What I'd love to see would be complete documentation on all the classic computers - how the hardware worked, how the software worked, when it was introduced, why it was introduced, what went wrong, what should have been done differently, what was good about it, etc. But to do that for just _one_ machine would be a major undertaking (I've tried writing some hardware docs, and it takes a long time!). But some of that info is likely to die with the _designers_, not with the machines, alas. > I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that > Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-) Aside : It's probably possible to find a similar machine (although not _THE_ one) if you hunt for long enough. I've found an CS8i and an MDS800 second-hand. > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". The main reason I get little from these messages is that the situation is very different in different countries (Acorn machines are lot easier to find in the UK than in the States, while CoCo3's are almost unknown over here). And of coure prices are very different as well. > BC -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 18:43:25 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2539@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > of the old machines. I collect, but I admit is has to make some sense to > > me as in useful or have some specific linkage to my place in this > > history. > > But this is a collectors list 8-) We all collect from that which we know. Not necessarily. I've bought things at radio rallies (hamfests) because 'it looked interesting'. Only later did I discover what I really had. If I'd always waited to find out what a particular item really was, then I'd probably have missed all the interesting stuff, and have a totally trivial collection. However, it does help to have some idea as to what things are. And to know what they look like from all angles :-) > You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we all > have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - > What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? Yep, got a load of them. Taking a trolley piled high with computer parts across Cambridge on a weekday afternoon is good for that :-). Or the time I carried a DEC Rainbow on a train - VR201 in one hand (using the built-in handle), CPU under the other arm, and keyboard in my pocket. Dismantling the CPU mid-journey (it needs no tools) added to the amusement. Then there was the time I carried an IBM PC/AT box on a train. It got the comment 'That's one hell of a laptop' :-). Or the time I was carrying a Creed 7E (baudot printing terminal) and was asked if I had a pen. My reply was 'no, but I have a teleprinter' :-) Still, what's wrong with being slightly mad? > > BC > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 19:00:40 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2540@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for > > quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq > > and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well. > > Recently a association already issued several critations warning > > buyers not to buy certain models from them. > > Boy - DO NOT get me started on THIS subject! Nor me. One of the reasons I use classics is that they're so well made and so reliable. A few weeks back I mentioned at a computer club that a new hard disk that I'd run for less than 25 _hours_ was already giving me trouble but that a 25 _year_ old minicomputer on the same desk was still going strong. > That is a given. 8 bitters rule. Even 16 bitters rule. Tho I do have > some 4 bitters - they don't rule - they just barely survive 8-) Err, don't forget the HP Saturn, which is used in almost all their calculators (including the HP48). That's a 4-bit machine at the hardware level (and sort-of 64 bit at the software level - strange chip). And I've found 4 bit microcontrollers in keyboards, 1-line displays, disk drives (not the controllers - but handling the stepper motor, drive ready, that sort of thing), and probably more besides. > There are probably more 8 bit MPU and CPU's in existance now than > Intel CPU's. They are EVERYWHERE. Kind of like Candid Camera. Where Don't forget the Microchip PIC (which has an 8-bit ALU and 12 or 14 bit instructions). Those turn up in just about anything nowadays. There's even one in my Laserprinter.... > you least expect it. Cars, phones, thermostats, elevators, games, man TV's, VCR's, CD players, monitors, IR remote handsets, toys, etc... > you name it - SOMEONE put a 6502/8085/6809 into it! Or an 8048, 8051, ST6, PIC, COP4, COP8, 7810, or something custom. > BC -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 19:09:41 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: FAQ addition: Repairing Capacitive Keyboards Message-ID: <2541@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20578947C@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > REPAIRING CAPACITIVE KEYBOARDS > v1.0 7/10/97 Kai Kaltenbach > > ---> What are capacitive keyboards? > > The vast majority of capacitive keyboards were and are manufactured by > Keytronics of Spokane, Washington. The mechanism is really quite > simple. A keypress pushes a foil circle onto the surface of a printed Note that the foil (actually a metal layer) is on the inside surface of a plastic disk on the end of the key plunger. It doesn't actually make contact with the PCB > circuit board, thus completing the circuit and registering the keypress More correctly it increases the capacitance between 2 tracks on the PCB. > to the computer. Capacitive keyboards are very reliable; however, they > will fail over time even if unused. > > Each foil contact circle is backed by a cylinder of PVC foam. The foam > is subject to environmental deterioration. Once the foam loses its > elasticity or dissolves entirely, the keys will stop working because the > foil circles will no longer make good contact with the PC board. > Various classic computer systems, such as the Processor Technology Sol, > exhibit this problem after their 20+ year lifespan. I've once seen a fault where the metal layer vanished, leaving the foam intact. No idea what happened, but it didn't work, of course. > > ---> How do I tell if I have a capacitive keyboard? > > Just remove a key cap -- if there is a separate spring under the key > cap, around the plunger, it's extremely likely that it's a capacitive > keyboard. They won't always say Keytronic on the outside of the > keyboard housing. These keyboards are _everywhere_. I've seen them 'made' by PERQ, Apricot, Acorn, Tektronix, FTS, and probably more. The only problem is that some of those are classics in themselves, and probably shouldn't be raided for spares. > > ---> What do I need to start a repair job? > > First you need a set of replacement foam pads. Each foam pad is a > cylinder about 1/4" in diameter and 3/16" long. There is a semi-rigid > clear plastic circle attached to one end of the pad, and a foil cylinder > attached to the other end. > > The only toosl you'll need are a #1 Philips screwdriver and a very small > standard screwdriver such as those pen-clip types frequently included in Every Keytronics keyboard I've dismantled has needed a smaller Phillips screwdriver (size O?) to remove the PCB from the keyframe. > computer tool kits (plus whatever tools are necessary to remove the > keyboard from its enclosure). > > ---> Where do I get replacement pads? > > If you're a perfectionist, you can order replacement pads from Keytronic > Corporation (http://www.keytronic.com/). However, it's much easier to Seriously? Do they do other spares as well. There's a couple of custom chips (see below) in almost all of these keyboards, and a source of spares would be handy. > simply find a capacitive keyboard in your local computer junk/surplus > store and strip it for replacement pads (see above for info on > identifying such keyboards). -----> So, What are the Custom Chips ? There are, in general 2 off 20 pin custom chips in a keytronics keyboard (some later ones have a single 40 pin chip, but I know nothing about that). 22-908-3B 8-channel sense amplifier 1 : Row 0 2 : Row 1 3 : Row 2 4 : Row 3 5 : Reset/sync output 6 : Row 4 7 : Row 5 8 : Row 6 9 : Row 7 10 : Ground 11 : Out 7 12 : Out 6 13 : Out 5 14 : Out 4 15 : Out 3 16 : Out 2 17 : Out 1 18 : Out 0 19 : Reset in 20 : +5V Outputs are believed to be open-collector 22-950-3B keyboard column decoder/driver. 1 : Col 8 2 : Col 9 3 : Col 10 4 : Col 11 5 : Latch Clock 6 : Select 0 (LSB Input) 7 : Select 1 8 : Select 2 9 : Select 3 10 : Ground 11 : Sync Input 12 : Col 0 13 : Col 1 14 : Col 2 15 : Col 3 16 : Col 4 17 : Col 5 18 : Col 6 19 : Col 7 20 : +5V -tony From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 19:24:26 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <2540@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <2540@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33c6ce0f.11525717@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:00:40 GMT, you wrote: % %Nor me. One of the reasons I use classics is that they're so well made and %so reliable. A few weeks back I mentioned at a computer club that a new %hard disk that I'd run for less than 25 _hours_ was already giving me trouble %but that a 25 _year_ old minicomputer on the same desk was still going strong. It really depends. No doubt minicomputer HD were reliable, but the early MFM stuff for PCs were shitty to work with. %Err, don't forget the HP Saturn, which is used in almost all their %calculators (including the HP48). That's a 4-bit machine at the hardware %level (and sort-of 64 bit at the software level - strange chip). It's a pity that a lot of the custom uProcessors were never really publicly documented. That includes the ones found in the Sharp Basic calculators. %Or an 8048, 8051, ST6, PIC, COP4, COP8, 7810, or something custom. Or the F8 which later became the 3870 (I think). Ben From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 11 19:47:37 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: My Datamaster Troubles...     Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number:  "09" and I'm assuming that this is a hardware failure code.     I have the "Diagnostic" diskette, but since I think that the floppies are not working (or the diskette is now bad), it's useless.     I've done the usual things like cleaning and reseating boards and cables, with no effect.     Any clues?? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 20:16:02 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Old Microprocessors Message-ID: <2556@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33c69abc.15979193@smtp.ix.netcom.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Some days ago, I mentioned that there was a UK company that used to > advertise old microprocessors like 9900, Z800x, 32032 and other stuff. > > I've just dug up my old issues of Elektor and found the company. It's > Viewcom, at Plaistow in London. > > Perhaps Enrico might want to check if this company still exists and > its tel/fax number: I've been looking for a 10MHz Z8001 (the one found > in Ciarcia's Trump card project in Byte). They're still going. Viewcom Electronics, 77 Upperton Road West Plaistow London E13 9LT England. Retail Shop 139 New City Road Plaistow London E13 9PX England Telephone : 0181-471-9338 Fax : 0181-552-0946 I've dealt with them, and had no problems. If you intend to collect your order, 'phone first, and they'll sort the bits out for you. > > The April 1991 issue of Elektor advertises Viewcom as carrying stuff > like the 9900, 9995 (both TI 16-bit microP). There's even the AMD 9511 The TMS9995 is still listed at \pounds 69.85 (OUCH!) Z8001B is \pounds 11.96, Z08001-10PSC is \pounds 16.90. The other devices you mentioned are no longer listed, alas. > which (if I'm not mistaken) is one of the first math copros for > microcomputers. Indeed it is. I have a CCS 8711 card for the Apple ][ that uses this chip. > Ben -tony From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 11 20:38:44 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970711183955.537ffbcc@ricochet.net> At 09:24 PM 7/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >dirt cheap at swap meets and thrift stores and sell it on the internet >for enough profit to break even on the hobby. It was the only way I >could get my wife to tolerate it. (Just in case you're wondering I make I'm the same way, or at least, I would be, if I could bear to part with anything! 8^) >it a point to sell stuff at cost on this discussion because, let's face >it, we're all friends, and I don't like profiting from friends). (No, likewise. If I've got something I don't think is of interest here, I'll put it on the AuctionWeb and let it go for whatever the market will pay. Otherwise, (like the PCjr? carts, which I need to post a message about) I'll just let things go for what they cost me. >Eventually I will HTML-ize it and put it up in a web page for people to I'm working on mine, slowly but surely! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 11 20:38:54 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970711184005.52efae42@ricochet.net> At 11:58 AM 7/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >>playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh >five buttons, 'rotate left', 'rotate right', 'thrust', 'fire', >'hyperspace'. The interesting thing was you didn't play against the Perhaps you're thinking of a later game wherein you could have two players at the same time with either separate ships, or linked ships. Sorta like asteroids in that you had to avoid/shoot various things on the screen. It had the rotate left/right buttons. There was another that used a rotating knob to control rotation; the story was it was a combat training simulation, but I can't remember the name. That was a fun one. (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 11 20:38:57 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? Thanks in advance! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 11 20:41:28 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707111327.AA20567@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > From: Brett > > Well, that's true. I always wondered why DEC couldn't sell PDP-11's - b > > then with that lousy chip set and poor software 8-) I still get pissed > > thinking about how DEC Marketing has messed up every attempt to get int > > the *home* market! > > You're pissed! I lost my job with them because they couldn't make money > from a diamond mine! But was it all marketings fault? Even IBM tripped up a couple of times. I remember when Xerox tried and failed as well. I think all the Big Boys failed the first times. They are just to - structured - to handle fast changing demands of the market. I hope you worked on say the 350? Rainbow??? [Infinite resources should NEVER be ignored 8-)] > > You mean the the 7440 I have on the desk next to me? > > Never remembered the model number but likely, yes! 14 digit display, scientific notation and unlimited nesting of parens. Also had a side box - I think the 7441 or was it 7450 that would store 1000 program steps. > > Not if you tell people about it! > > Drat you caught me. > > > You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we > > I wish, I'm old enough. I finished college before the 8080 was > introduced. Well, so did I! Of course - I didn't graduate 8-( Something about my birthday being #3 on The List and not - quite - carrying a passing grade average - ah - to be young and foolish again when Man walked on the Moon. [Aside - I thought ALL women stopped having birthdays at 29???] > > have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - > > What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? > > Never happend to me. ;-) I get you have those, in there, and they all > work? Well, I would have to get a bigger Ampere Feed if I turned on everything at once. As I said before, I turn them on once or twice a year. Have to test the AC during the summer and reduce the Gas bill during the winter 8-) But I would also like to have them all running. I just can't handle that many keyboards at once. My P&J is a 11/23 with a Simga controller and a Decmation CPM board. You oughta try writing Turbo Pascal programs on that and a Televideo terminal. Which reminds me - did you ever play with the NBS Pascal on the DEC equipment - DECUS tape. Pretty neat - Pascal that could compile itself. BC From scott at saskatoon.com Fri Jul 11 20:48:43 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, >computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > >When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. >crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent >players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. >It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got >a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio >Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. I think that was RS. I had one of those too. Got pretty boring pretty quick, cause you could fake down, go up three times and spaz on the forward button for a guaranteed first down every time. (or was it a guaranteed TD? I can't remember.) I wish I still had the thing, I think I eventually took it apart to 'see how it worked.' ;-) ttfn srw From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jul 11 19:50:49 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <199707120050.UAA07641@unix.aardvarkol.com> At 06:38 PM 7/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. >crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent >players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. >It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got >a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio >Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. Yes, I remember these quite well...they made the most annoying 'blips' and 'beeps'! I don't recall who made them or what they were called, though I believe Coleco made something like it at one time. I remember they were really popular when I was in junior high, about 1979-80 or so and that the teachers must have had quite a collection of similar games the way they were always confiscating them! I also had a fairly neat blackjack handheld at about the same time. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jul 11 16:57:34 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199707120157.VAA21976@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:38:57 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Uncle Roger > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Classic Video Games > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? I did remember that! I found a way to crash it! There's a bug in it. :)) Jason D. > > Thanks in advance! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 11 21:24:25 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Uncle Roger, etc: In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? Until next time, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? > > Thanks in advance! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jul 11 17:34:53 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199707120234.WAA25662@mail.cgocable.net> One comment, Is the display looks like it was using same LED display, "hair thin" segments under the plastic lens? Jason D. > Uncle Roger, etc: > > In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I > certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different > companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I > believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar > company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look > around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE > and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through > it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or > two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were > on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic > full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? > > Until next time, > > CORD > > //*=====================================================================++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector || > || Autograph collector || > ++=====================================================================*// > > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > > > > > From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jul 11 21:45:51 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <199707120243.VAA18585@challenge.sunflower.com> Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Classic Video Games > Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 5:34 PM > > One comment, > > Is the display looks like it was using same LED display, "hair thin" > segments under the plastic lens? > > Jason D. > > Uncle Roger, etc: > > > > In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I > > certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different > > companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I > > believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar > > company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look > > around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE > > and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through > > it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or > > two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were > > on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic > > full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? > > > > Until next time, > > > > CORD > > > > //*=====================================================================++ > > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || > > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || > > || Classic computer software and hardware collector || > > || Autograph collector || > > ++=====================================================================*// > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > > > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > > > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > > > > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > > > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > > > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > > > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > > > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > > > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > > > > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > > > > > > > > > > From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 11 21:51:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: OOPS - Explorer 85 - Encyclopedia Entry Message-ID: Well I forked it up! My ISP was working on an upgade and I was editing *someones* entry for the Explorer 85 on the Encyclopedia web page. Suddenly, when I saved it, Error - no free pace on device! So I thought Ok, I will just :q! OOPS it's gone! Now normally I save a copy for reference - pp back to pine - Error - OOps that's gone too! Who ever placed the page - huh - you want to email me the particulars and I will enter them??? BC From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jul 11 22:30:43 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970711233041.00b421c0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, thedm (and others) happened to blather: >Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason >they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. [big snip] Coleco was mentioned... My brother had a Coleco back in the Jr / H.S. daze... which was pretty eazy to win. From what I remember, the LED's could be controlled with two brightness levels, the brighter ones were you, and the dimmer ones were the badguys. I stumbled across it about a year ago or so, while moving... Not sure if my brother or I ended up with it (---Still unpacking--- :-( ) but it still worked at last check. This is one of those things that I took apart as well... but it actually got back together and still worked! ;-) Trivia: On the Coleco, there was a 6-tone "good sound" -- touchdown, methinks. It went something like this (bad replica of staff to follow :) --------o-----o-- ----------------- -----o-----o----- ---o------------- -o--------------- Anyway, there was an episode of Hart to Hart (Robert Wagner & Stephanie Powers... remember?) that used those sounds for automatic door openers / security system at a millionaire/billionaires house... I remember hearing that, and saying so. No-one believed me until I went and got the game and started playing it... then the family was mad that I was making noise during the show! But at least I proved my point. ;^> Have fun, and get ready for my next post! See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 11 22:27:08 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970711233041.00b421c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: That is the exact touchdown tone mentioned below for the Coleco game I was refering to!! That is amazing! What's even more amazing is that you too associated that tone to the Heart to Heart show!!! I figured I was the only one that made that associated. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Whilst in a self-induced trance, thedm (and others) happened to blather: > >Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason > >they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. > > [big snip] > > Coleco was mentioned... My brother had a Coleco back in the Jr / H.S. > daze... which was pretty eazy to win. From what I remember, the LED's could > be controlled with two brightness levels, the brighter ones were you, and > the dimmer ones were the badguys. > > I stumbled across it about a year ago or so, while moving... Not sure if my > brother or I ended up with it (---Still unpacking--- :-( ) but it still > worked at last check. > > This is one of those things that I took apart as well... but it actually > got back together and still worked! ;-) > > Trivia: On the Coleco, there was a 6-tone "good sound" -- touchdown, > methinks. It went something like this (bad replica of staff to follow :) > > --------o-----o-- > ----------------- > -----o-----o----- > ---o------------- > -o--------------- > > Anyway, there was an episode of Hart to Hart (Robert Wagner & Stephanie > Powers... remember?) that used those sounds for automatic door openers / > security system at a millionaire/billionaires house... I remember hearing > that, and saying so. No-one believed me until I went and got the game and > started playing it... then the family was mad that I was making noise > during the show! But at least I proved my point. ;^> > > Have fun, and get ready for my next post! See ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jul 11 23:19:39 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: He shoots! He Boots! Heath Lives! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712001937.00a44650@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Stacy C. Morang happened to blather: >On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> H-120-1. I'm assuming this is the model number. >It is. Uh... Update, folks! (and I gotta name this thing now... how about "Heather"... 8-) Get it?!? It boots! Did I mention that it came with one floppy disk stuck in the bottom drive? This floppy was a boot floppy! And it still works! Joy! ;-) >> Something tickled in my brain about those floppies, so as I lumbered around >> in the dark in my newly-begun clean-ish basement (Eeeeek!) I found my old >> non-working Atari 810 disk drive... and the mechs looked almost exact! >> Would these happen to be the same mechanically, would anyone know? > >Probably not, the Z (or H) used standard SA-455? 360K ibm pc style drives You're right, but they seem to format to only 320K (8 sectors/track, not 9) with the DOS I do have, which is listed in the stats of the machine I listed below... The broken drive *does* work! It's only the door that's broken, so I sacrificed my Atari 810 (which was dead anyway) and the garage door from it is exact! Yiippee! >Top, I think. (I have one, but I only got it for the Winchester drive >card). Whaddya did with the rest? A few spare parts might be nice (or a color tube, if yours had it... ;-) >That is the monitor rom, and certain keys should do something more >interesting, like > >C - color bars (if you have color video, otherwise b&w bars) >B - boot prompt, pressing the right combo of numbers and fkeys selects >the boot drive. > >D - dump memory I don't doubt your memory, but I think this is a (prolly earlier) version of the monitor rom... specs to follow. I fat-fingered *all* the keys on it, and here's what works: B -- boots. Accepts parameters of: 0, 1, 2, 3, and that tells it what floppy to boot from. Plain B assumes floppy 0, which is top. Thanks! All else beeps with invalid parameter, except "S", which appears to do nothing. Would this be boot from the serial port, perchance? V -- Version of the monitor rom, which is Version 1.02. Nothing else worked... >It will boot off of CP/M, MP/M, UCSD P-System, Concurrent CP/M, MS-DOS >and others. If you find a generic version 1 or maybe 2 ms-dos it might >boot, pc specific PC dos won't. This thing came with a Version 1 Dos... here's the specs of the boot: Z-DOS / MS-DOS BIOS Release 1.00 Version 1.02 Z-DOS / MS-DOS Release 1.00 Version 1.25 (C)Copyright 1982, Zenith Data Systems Z-DOS / MS-DOS Command Release 1.00 Version 1.19 >The machine has an 8088 and an 8085 processor, and uses the appropriate >one for the os in question. I've pulled 'er apart to fix the floppy, and to clean the keyboard & all. Sure enough, it has a NEC 8085A plastic, and an Intel 8088 like-eprom-whatever-you-call-it case. It presently has 128K RAM in it! Questions: 1. Whilst it's all apart, does anyone want me to snap pictures? I can... 2. How high can this rascal go in memory? I located 3 banks (9 each -- parity) of 64kx1 300ns DRAM, two of which are populated. Mathmatically, that works to: 128K RAM. The third bank is empty. Can I pop in 9 more chips without setting any jumpers/dipswitches? How about bigger DRAMS? (prolly not... but it's worth an ask!) Still, 192K is still pretty good for a machine from '82! (also, on the question of jumpers... anyone have a tech-like manual for this thing I could get a copy of... or at least a copy of the important pages?) 3. The video board which is based on the Motorola 68A45P video chip, presently has 64K onboard for *just* the green section of the board. This rascal can handle 192K Video Memory!!! Funky! ;^> (that is, if I'm reading the boards right.... but CHKDSK doesn't return the added video memory, so that'd seem correct.) Does the board support any form of graphics? I tried the standard basic commands (ZBasic was on the floppy) but it seemed only to work in text. For this thing having 2 Intel-based processors, I'm surprised with the amount of Motorola logic in this rascal! Prolly a 3rd of it is Moto, including the 74 series chips! All of the important support chips, like the video processor, the PIA's & UARTS, and all that jazz seem to be Moto. Well folks, I havta say: This is one *sweet* machine! :-) >I'm not sure what the licensing requirements are, however, I do have >several OS's for the machine - I'm sure something can be worked out. Did Heath/Zenith bundle an OS with the disk systems? If so, wouldn't I own a license to own a copy of the included OS, as I own the machine? I'm not sure how stuff like that works, especially on the old stuff. >You're welcome, pity I'm so far behind in the mail... >-stacy No prob... I'm behind as well, as you can plainly see! >So long, and keep your stick on the ice. Ohhh, brrrr! I hope yer' talkin' Hockey!!! ;^> Thanks again, and have a good weekend! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From rws at ais.net Sat Jul 12 01:28:43 1997 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: help with NCR 1203-6000? Message-ID: I may have a chance to get a NCR Model 1203-6000 (it's about one step from abandonment). It appears to work and run both CP/M-80 and MS-DOS. On the serial number sticker it lists its manufacturer as NCR GmbH- am I to assume this may mean it is of German origin? My questions are, has anybody heard of this machine? Does anyone have any info on it? Is it even a classic? Thanks, Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From marvin at rain.org Sat Jul 12 01:56:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Fridays Haul References: <3.0.32.19970712001937.00a44650@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33C72A74.1812@rain.org> I met with a friend of mine who had a garage and yard full of computer stuff and was invited to take what I wanted. I wanted it all :), but I don't have the room. I ended up with three HP 9123 disk drive units, one HP 9122 unit, a Tandy 1000, Zenith Data Systems XT of some sort (Mod. ZW-151-52), an ACC Bridge/Router, an old style Compaq Deskpro 386, and some other miscellaneous stuff. The Zenith only has the CPU card and I think there should be a couple of proprietary cards in that unit but I don't recall for sure. BUT, it looks like that CPU card is the same one in the Zenith portable I have that is missing the ROMs. Now when I have time, I can blow new EPROMS and try out the portable! I should add all of the above at no charge. Oh, I also got a floptical drive that is supposed to be good. As I was talking, one of the things I was looking for was a DMA Systems and he Tomorrow is the Santa Barbara Amateur Radio club Bazaar and besides the Spectragraphics CAD setup, there is a Kaypro II, a Commodore 128, a LOT of PS/2 stuff, and a number of the old AT style computer cases with ?????. I talked with a local non-profit who will take any PC computer stuff that doesn't sell so at least some of it is saved from the BIG dumpster that will be sitting there. From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Sat Jul 12 01:13:51 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans References: Message-ID: <33C7209F.3B32@Brighton-UK.com> Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: I'd hate to lose this important piece of > information (although I will hold onto it and provide pages to members upon > request). Could you suplly me with the pages scan. Thank you very much. Enrico P.S. If you need anything this side I will, of course, endeavour to do my best to help you. ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:16:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: A couple people have asked about shipping costs. I hadn't quite thought about it until last night. Everyone should be aware that they will be paying the shipping costs both to and from me (or whoever is a distributor). Here's the current plan: I will have all the units either sent to me or get some volunteers around the country to have a bunch of units sent to them. I am assuming Mike will not want to handle shipping to each person. I will ask but I seriously doubt it. So anyway, he's in Jersey and I'm in California, and shipping will be a maximum if all are sent to me. Therefore, I would like all the units with a west coast destination sent to me, all with a mid-west destination sent to ???, southwest destination sent to ???, east coast sent to ???, etc. From there they will be individually packed and shipped out. So therefore we get hit with double shipping charges. Shitty I know. I figure total shipping costs will be $4 for a single unit, $5 for a couple, etc. Not sure exactly. I realize the shipping costs may not be what some people bargained for so at this point I would ask that if you want to or need to back out, please do it soon. I am going to try and negotiate a lump sum for the total units that will hopefully bring the cost per unit to $7. That's what I'm shooting for. Stay tuned. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:39:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle > (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the > modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anything > earlier or other type of device? I always run into big ugly old modems that are, alas, what I draw the line at as far as collectible. I find these at swap meets, thrift shops, surplus shops, etc. They are everywhere, and it seems just about everyone made one. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:30:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:53 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? Message-ID: Ok, saw three things of interest today. First, I saw a set of boxes from some Scottish company. One was called the PAM computer and simply had some red LED displays on the front to display numbers. Another was FINANCIAL ANALYSER and another still was, oh, forgot. Weird. Anyone ever heard about these? They seemed to be boxes for doing calculations, or displaying results of formulas? Also saw and picked up this Convergent computer thingy. Pretty cool. It has modules that plug together. One is the PROCESSOR module, then there's the EXPANSION DISK module. The boxes which make up this "computer" fit together via this bus and then there's this lever you use to lock the boxes together. Seems I forgot to pickup the Processor module (paid for it but forgot to get it). I also saw some dumb terminals for this system at a thrift shop (they are gone now). Anyone have any info on this? Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. The proprietor of the place I was at made me put it back because apparently it has all the store's financial records back a few years. I offered to copy all the data off for him and pay him good for it but he flat-out refused. Very frustrating. I plan on bugging him about it everytime I go back. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:50:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <01IL40QDUZ5UB63OUK@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... Are you referring to the AppleCat? That was an awesome modem. It could do MF, tone-detection (with an add-on chip) and could also play 3-voice music through the phone (or was it 2-voice)? I have a Novation modem called the AutoCat 212 which is a piece of dung. I swear to almighty god that this thing produced line noise based on my brain wave activity. Now check this out, if I was looking at the modem, it would start spewing line noise. If I would look away when it was transferring data, it would work fine. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Very weird. And frustrating. I had to put up with dirty file transfers and modem sessions for about 3 years until I finally got another modem (couldn't afford a nice 2400 baud). Anyway, it was a 1200 baud, no DTMF dialing (only pulse but not hayes compatible, you had to write a special driver for it since no terminal software on the apple seemed to support it) or you had to manually dial. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 04:03:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. I remember that. It was cool. My brothers would never let me play it but I finally got to and couldn't figure it out at first but when I did I realized it was pretty fun. However, if you were fast enough with your fingers, you could always score a TD on the easy mode. I believe it was made by Coleco? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 04:08:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <199707120050.UAA07641@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > At 06:38 PM 7/11/97 -0700, you wrote: > > >When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > >crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > >players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > >It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > >a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > >Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > Yes, I remember these quite well...they made the most annoying > 'blips' and 'beeps'! I don't recall who made them or what they were called, If you've ever heard that one Fleetwood Mac song, you'll recognize the "tackle" sound in one part of the song where he sings "So digital" and then you hear "blrrrp blrrrp". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ampage at geocities.com Sat Jul 12 06:46:28 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! References: Message-ID: <33C76E93.EA48A8D1@geocities.com> I'd like to reserve a Panasonic. I thought I did earlier, but I guess it didn't go through. Thanks From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 12 07:59:37 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:30:12 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199707121259.FAA09709@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to > be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like > one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up > close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen > built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. A Morrow Pivot. Portable, battery-operated MS-DOS machine; I'm not sure how IBM-compatible it is. Made by Vadem in Milpitas, OEMd by Morrow as the Pivot, Zenith as something (think they sold a bunch to the IRS), Osborne as the Osborne 3. Keep your eyes open, there are others out there. I've seen one at Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a bogus price for it, something like $100. -Frank McConnell From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jul 12 08:18:46 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam and all: This little blurb might frusterate all of you out there, but the message Sam posted below has GOT to be the funniest little bit I've read in a while. I'm still laughing!!! It's 8:20am here, just woke, and, geesh, I had to read what he said about 'mental telepathy' two or three time to believe what I saw... and like I said, I'm still laughing. Goofy, huh?? Thanks for the chuckle, but for some reason.... I DO BELIEVE YOU!! CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > > > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > > > > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > > Are you referring to the AppleCat? That was an awesome modem. It could > do MF, tone-detection (with an add-on chip) and could also play 3-voice > music through the phone (or was it 2-voice)? I have a Novation modem > called the AutoCat 212 which is a piece of dung. I swear to almighty god > that this thing produced line noise based on my brain wave activity. Now > check this out, if I was looking at the modem, it would start spewing > line noise. If I would look away when it was transferring data, it would > work fine. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Very weird. And frustrating. I > had to put up with dirty file transfers and modem sessions for about 3 > years until I finally got another modem (couldn't afford a nice 2400 baud). > Anyway, it was a 1200 baud, no DTMF dialing (only pulse but not hayes > compatible, you had to write a special driver for it since no terminal > software on the apple seemed to support it) or you had to manually dial. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Sat Jul 12 08:38:01 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Also saw and picked up this Convergent computer thingy. Pretty cool. It > has modules that plug together. One is the PROCESSOR module, then > there's the EXPANSION DISK module. The boxes which make up this > "computer" fit together via this bus and then there's this lever you use > to lock the boxes together. Seems I forgot to pickup the Processor > module (paid for it but forgot to get it). I also saw some dumb > terminals for this system at a thrift shop (they are gone now). Anyone > have any info on this? Yep. I just picked up one of these systems myself, last weekend. I'm still a bit baffled as to what can be done with it, but I have boxes of software and manuals yet to work through. Bill Giurnius has been helping me out; between the three of us we can probably end up somewhere useful. When you go back for the processor module, see if they've got an extra power supply lying about; I'm still one short. (: Anyway; this machine is Intel based (Mine's one of the first and is an 8 MHz 80186; Bill says that Convergent carried the technology through the 80486) and that bus on the side is called 'Xbus'. It runs a multiuser OS called CTOS which is now owned by Unisys. Apparently, CTOS still has an active (but obscure) development effort behind it, although I'd put it at about the same level as System/36 development. Business oriented, expensive software. Basically, a salvaging the last scraps of your hardware investment sort of deal. Not useful for a hobbyist, anyway. It could run a network of up to 48 machines, by chaining 24 machines to either of two RS422 ports. My box is apparently licensed for standalone use. There is also a 'Miniframe' that Convergent produced, and I've had more luck finding info on. I get the impression, though, that it's more of a standard PC-type box than the modular ones that you and I have stumbled on to. I have the Miniframe FAQ version 0.7 on my box here, in postscript form. I haven't read it yet. The ASCII version I found was only at version 0.3 and not particularly helpful. ok -r From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 12 09:23:47 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Several dozen different Football Handhelds were made. There's a good Handheld page which includes a FAQ at http://www.best.com/~cdyer/ We had one of those vibrating football games, what a joke :) I also vaguely remember in the early 70s a neighbor having some football game where you made your plays and inserted some plastic disc into a unit that would tell you how the play went like a sports announcer. At 02:24 AM 7/12/97 +0000, you wrote: >In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I >certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different >companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I >believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar >company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look >around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE >and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through >it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or >two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were >on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic >full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? > >Until next time, > >CORD James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Sat Jul 12 06:17:11 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: News from Apple References: Message-ID: <33C767B7.6142@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs > has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll > re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. Perfectly ON TOPIC (I think...) enrico From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jul 12 10:58:16 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <970712115815_137593820@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-12 07:42:02 EDT, Sam Ismail writes: << If you've ever heard that one Fleetwood Mac song, you'll recognize the "tackle" sound in one part of the song where he sings "So digital" and then you hear "blrrrp blrrrp". >> actually, it's supertramp. =D david From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:36:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707121259.FAA09709@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 12 Jul 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > Sam Ismail writes: > > Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to > > be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like > > one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up > > close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen > > built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. > > A Morrow Pivot. Portable, battery-operated MS-DOS machine; I'm not > sure how IBM-compatible it is. Made by Vadem in Milpitas, OEMd by > Morrow as the Pivot, Zenith as something (think they sold a bunch to > the IRS), Osborne as the Osborne 3. Nope. I've got a Pivot. This was nothing like the Pivot. It was close to the shape of an Osbourne and it was beige. It was close to the dimensions of a tower case only it sits horizontally. > Keep your eyes open, there are others out there. I've seen one at > Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a > bogus price for it, something like $100. I got mine for free. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jul 12 12:18:08 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707121745.KAA15610@mx5.u.washington.edu> > %but that a 25 _year_ old minicomputer on the same desk was still > going strong. > > It really depends. No doubt minicomputer HD were reliable, but the > early MFM stuff for PCs were shitty to work with. Depends on the HDD. Some (such as the ST-225) were el cheapo products (cheap at the time, compared with more expensive ones -- I have a 1984 adv't, listing ST-225's at $400; ST-251 at $600!)...IBM's Xybec controllers were slow, tho' I don't know how reliable. Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus inviting problems. From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:52:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <970712115815_137593820@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-12 07:42:02 EDT, Sam Ismail writes: > > << If you've ever heard that one Fleetwood Mac song, you'll recognize the > "tackle" sound in one part of the song where he sings "So digital" and > then you hear "blrrrp blrrrp". >> > > > actually, it's supertramp. =D Oh, yeah. I knew I got that wrong. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:51:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: <33C767B7.6142@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs > > has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll > > re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? > > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. You may be right but you're also wrong. Wozniak semi-retired from Apple and didn't do any development on the Apple ][ after 1983 or 1984 (something like that). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:43:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > > Also saw and picked up this Convergent computer thingy. Pretty cool. It > > has modules that plug together. One is the PROCESSOR module, then > > there's the EXPANSION DISK module. The boxes which make up this > > Yep. I just picked up one of these systems myself, last weekend. I'm still > a bit baffled as to what can be done with it, but I have boxes of software > and manuals yet to work through. Bill Giurnius > has been helping me out; between the three of us we can probably end up > somewhere useful. I got actual hard drive modules so I'm curious as to what's stored on them. > When you go back for the processor module, see if they've got an extra > power supply lying about; I'm still one short. (: There were two at the thrift shop I frequent but those went with the terminals they belonged to. If I'd only known I was going to run into this thing... I'll see how many power supplies they got. I only saw the one, and I left it there as well! I'll be going back next weekend. I thought this was a pretty mundane box. Glad I got it. Seems real neat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 14:14:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: HHC UPDATE Message-ID: Ok, just spoke to Mike. Here's the deal: Haven't gotten a price yet. He's concerned about shipping since these units will be coming from Canada. Each unit weighs a little over 5 pounds with the cpu, printer, tray and power supply. This is a little more than I expected. He's going to try to have the units shipped in bulk directly to the volunteer distributors. (So far Kirk (dynasoar) has volunteered to be an east coast distributor. We need a mid-west, southwest and possibly southern distributor. Please e-mail me if you wish to volunteer.) Shipped in bulk, the shipping per unit on the first leg will not be that significant. Its when you only have 1 or 2 coming to you on the 2nd leg of shipping that will be significant with relation to the price of each unit. I would say expect to pay upwards of $15 per each unit after shipping. Again, if you did not anticipate this and want to or need to back out, please do so soon. Mike said it will take him a week to coordinate everything with the company that has the units, so no new news until late next week...sorry. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jul 12 14:52:23 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? Message-ID: <199707121952.PAA14910@armigeron.com> I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? Secondly, from the same source, I can get a Compac Portable I XT with harddrive and memory upgrade, ethernet 3/comm and AST 5250 emulation (some mainframe terminal?), again all in working condition, but from what I hear, it's portable in the term that yes, you can lug the entire setup. Third, for anyone that is interested (you pay shipping, plus maybe a few extra bucks - whatever you think it's worth) the following are also available: 10M HD for an IBM 360 Monroe (possible) "bookkeeping machine" Underwood typewriter (manual) (unknown) manual adding machine I'll be hearing more about this stuff on Monday. -spc (Is getting more stuff than he knows what to do with ... ) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 14:50:37 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For $200 I got a VAX from a business that went under. It's a VAXserver 3100, with VMS 5.3 on it. I have no idea what to do with it, this is the first time I've ever seen VMS. I have a 50-user liscense. When I boot it up, it seems to wait forever for DECWindows to get DECnet or something... Someone please explain what this is and what it can do. Any help appreciated. This had an IP number, so it may be on the Internet if I can make it work... From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 14:54:21 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and does anyone know what all the plugs on the back do? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 15:00:12 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And, I need a username and password to log into it. What's the VMS equilvalent of root? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 15:14:37 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I have no username/password, I can't shut it down right! How do I shut down VMS without losing the harddisk? Can I just power it off? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 16:57:18 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:14:37 pm Message-ID: <9707122057.AA08585@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1946 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/ba2e4e5a/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 15:58:00 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122057.AA08585@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > If you're buying 3100's for $200, I've got a pile of about 16 in my > living room... :-) Street price for a 3100/30 with 16 Megs of RAM > is about US$100. Of course, video and/or disk options can substantially > increase the value. How about VMS 5.3 with a 50 user liscense? Would that increase the value much? :) thanks > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:09:29 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The model number is DJ-31CP2-A -A01 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 17:17:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:58:00 pm Message-ID: <9707122117.AA07493@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 743 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/2f198b9d/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:19:12 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122117.AA07493@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Unfortunately you don't actually have the license. Transferring a > VMS license requires paperwork with DEC and a $300 fee. > > Fortunately, "hobbyist class" licenses are now available from DEC > for free, if you're a US DECUS member. This doesn't cover layered > products or clustering, but it's a start. See http://www.montagar.com/ > under the "OpenVMS hobbyist" for more information. Does this mean I have to nuke the harddisk? I don't have $300. Or does it really matter? From dlw at neosoft.com Sat Jul 12 11:32:16 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> References: Message-ID: <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> I was just checking out a new store near me and saw an HP 9836. Anyone know anything about this? It looked like a one piece setup with a built-in monitor and 2 5 1/4" floppy drives and keyboard. It was BIG. Can anyone tell me about it? I also saw an HP 86 with lots of carts plugged into the rear and an HP 9816 monitor and HP 9121 3 1/2" dual drive unit. I'm talking to the guy about picking these up so if someone can give me some info on them I'd appreciate it. He had an Apple IIe with 2 Disk IIs, Apple Imagewriter printer and Apple monitor with doc. I may grab that as well since I can never have too many Apple IIs. :-) Finally, I saw talk here recently about IBM external 5 1/4" floppy drives. Someone said something about using one on an Amiga I think. If this is possible please let me know as he has several. There were stacks of monitors, including a HUGE Apollo monitor, wish he had the system for it. This is at a local computer store and he says they get stuff like this in all the time and generally just have someone come in and haul it off to the dump or salvage the metal. Oh boy, a new source! I'm going to go back and spend a little time in their warehouse. Thanks for any info. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:28:35 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122117.AA07493@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Got the OpenVMS FAQ, and we're in. Good deal. Thanks. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:39:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Curious... How is a PDP-11/23 compared to a 486SX/33? About how many percent is the PDP of the 486? About how many percent of the 486 is the VAX? Just curious. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 18:07:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 04:39:01 pm Message-ID: <9707122207.AA08775@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/f9ffc90e/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 18:19:27 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707121745.KAA15610@mx5.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jul 12, 97 01:18:08 pm Message-ID: <9707122219.AA08830@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 906 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/50399ac4/attachment.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jul 12 08:56:45 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707121745.KAA15610@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 12-Jul-97, PG Manney wrote: >Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus >inviting problems. Yes, but in my experience these Seagate drives were real workhorses. I had less problems with them, other than when they got bumped too hard while moving a system, than with most other types of MFM/RLL drives. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 18:05:46 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > On 12-Jul-97, PG Manney wrote: > > >Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus > >inviting problems. > > Yes, but in my experience these Seagate drives were real workhorses. I had > less problems with them, other than when they got bumped too hard while moving > a system, than with most other types of MFM/RLL drives. I opened one to see what was inside, and spun it up. I turned the XT off when I heard the grinding noise. Sealed it back up, fired up Norton, and it didnt lose 1 byte of data! From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jul 12 18:21:45 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! Message-ID: <970712192144_1790558026@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-12 19:18:47 EDT, DA Seagraves put forth: you might want to post about it on comp.sys.dec newsgroup. i asked for some info there on my uVAX ][ i got recently, and got some really good info from the regulars there. there's a faq also, try ftp'ing to digital and look around. i know there's one there. << For $200 I got a VAX from a business that went under. It's a VAXserver 3100, with VMS 5.3 on it. I have no idea what to do with it, this is the first time I've ever seen VMS. I have a 50-user liscense. When I boot it up, it seems to wait forever for DECWindows to get DECnet or something... Someone please explain what this is and what it can do. Any help appreciated. This had an IP number, so it may be on the Internet if I can make it work... >> david From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 12 19:06:24 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2623@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > It's a pity that a lot of the custom uProcessors were never really > publicly documented. That includes the ones found in the Sharp Basic > calculators. Some of the Sharp ones were documented - There are Technical reference/machine language manuals for (at least) the PC1500 and PC1350 families - I have both of them. Sharp service manuals (yes, they exist as well) contain schematics/pinouts but little (if any) machine code information. > Ben -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 12 19:38:26 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <2626@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > I was just checking out a new store near me and saw an HP 9836. > Anyone know anything about this? It looked like a one piece setup > with a built-in monitor and 2 5 1/4" floppy drives and keyboard. It > was BIG. Can anyone tell me about it? I can't tell you much about it, although if it's the machine I am thinking of, the monitor is actually a separate box that locks in place. It's a 68000-based machine, and has GPIB as standard. SOme of them have a ROM board containing (I think) HP-basic, while others boot from floppy. > I also saw an HP 86 with lots of carts plugged into the rear and an > HP 9816 monitor and HP 9121 3 1/2" dual drive unit. I'm talking to > the guy about picking these up so if someone can give me some info on > them I'd appreciate it. The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of the 9122 if that's any help. > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat -tony From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 12 20:02:24 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. Message-ID: <199707130102.AA18772@world.std.com> > How is a PDP-11/23 compared to a 486SX/33? An 11/23 is slower than a 486 if it's running faster than 16mhz. but a 486 is running single user. > About how many percent is the PDP of the 486? what is a PDP? choices 1,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,11/780,11/750,11/730? > About how many percent of the 486 is the VAX? Depending... first I've rarely seen a vax run a single user OS. A 486dx/33 compares to a 3100m38 if they are both running *nix. while the vax is slower in MIPs it is the ultimate CISC and can do more in fewer than a 486. It is also optimized for multitasking/timsharing something the 486 is not. Allison From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jul 12 20:22:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: HHC UPDATE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam: I certainly will volunteer to be the distributor for the Mid-West. I am located in Peru, Nebraska which is 2 miles from Missouri, 30 miles from Kansas, and about 10 miles from Iowa. I also am an hour from both Omaha and Lincoln, Nebraska.... right in the southeast corner of Nebraska!! I'm about as mid-west as it gets! I have a lot of experience in mailing items, large and small, as well as in bulk... so let me know if you still need me. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, just spoke to Mike. Here's the deal: > > Haven't gotten a price yet. He's concerned about shipping since these > units will be coming from Canada. Each unit weighs a little over 5 pounds > with the cpu, printer, tray and power supply. This is a little more than > I expected. He's going to try to have the units shipped in bulk directly > to the volunteer distributors. (So far Kirk (dynasoar) has volunteered to > be an east coast distributor. We need a mid-west, southwest and possibly > southern distributor. Please e-mail me if you wish to volunteer.) Shipped > in bulk, the shipping per unit on the first leg will not be that > significant. Its when you only have 1 or 2 coming to you on the 2nd leg > of shipping that will be significant with relation to the price of each > unit. I would say expect to pay upwards of $15 per each unit after > shipping. Again, if you did not anticipate this and want to or need to > back out, please do so soon. > > Mike said it will take him a week to coordinate everything with the > company that has the units, so no new news until late next week...sorry. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jul 12 16:35:41 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199707130135.VAA07826@mail.cgocable.net> Had to jump in to say few about these hds...from my years long experience with them... Those ST2xx series was the most number produced in old days and I always have them in varying conditions from good, to badly worn. My first test when I get like that especially ST225/ST225R series is remove the logic board and gently rock the motor rotor housing, if it makes clunks or moves, it's junked. Next test is to spun them up and listen and feel the pack for condition of the bearings, the spindle often "grinds or soft ticking" at full speed. The ones that feel smooth and like new feel is real rare! Only advice when to asolutely avoid the seagate is those ST125 series, these always heads gets stuck on platters. If you have a ST251 series, if working, handle them more gently because the spindle with motor in it, that axle is not that strong, warps easily if handled roughly. Very usual like that... :) What else, if you find any different brands that is MFM/RLL, SCSI or such that uses voice coil, they're very reliable and lasts long time. Not those early ST4 series that uses linear voice coils! If you see miniscribe drives, good luck, I have no positive experience about them! What else is worst hd from different brands? Tip: Most Unusual and I mean it: is ST212, uses 1 platter. 4 heads to a platter, two heads per surface. What else? > > On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > On 12-Jul-97, PG Manney wrote: > > > > >Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus > > >inviting problems. > > > > Yes, but in my experience these Seagate drives were real workhorses. I had > > less problems with them, other than when they got bumped too hard while moving > > a system, than with most other types of MFM/RLL drives. > > I opened one to see what was inside, and spun it up. I turned the XT off > when I heard the grinding noise. Sealed it back up, fired up Norton, and > it didnt lose 1 byte of data! This hd that grates was from the arm hitting the adjustable track 0 stop that got bit different position becasue the top was unbolted therefore the bottom part got UNwarped, when cover is bolted back on warps back to correct position. :) YOUR'E LUCKY that you did get it back working again. :-( ) My experience like that is not successful and lose the data to LLF in order to remarry the controller and the tracks back together if cover was removed/put back on. Other thing, the constant slowly warbling grinding or more warbling vibrations when the platter spinning shows that bearings are dead. Yes, I was experimenting with lots of hds/models/brands which I got some experience with them. If you have any questions about hds, floppy drives, fire yours to me. :) Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jul 12 16:44:47 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122057.AA08585@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:14:37 pm Message-ID: <199707130144.VAA08660@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Tim! Sounds like I might have one too. Is this vaxstation case very similar to a XL size pizza box with bit thicker to take the one HH scsi hd and no floppy? What I have is 3 motherboards, if you wish, ask for more info to ID these bare boards but still have ROMs on it and pretty complete because I forgot what model it was! (slapping myself. :) ) Thanks! Jason D. Big juicy snip! > > You haven't told us which Vaxstation 3100 you have (there are at least > half a dozen different models), but assuming it's a /20 or a /30 or a /38 the > connectors on the back along the bottom are: > > Ethernet AUI > Pushbotton for selecting AUI/Thinnet > Ethernet Thinnet > Pushbutton for reset > Keyboard connector > Mouse connector > Video connector > Two MMJ jacks, labeled for "printer" and "modem" > Small DIP switch for selecting video or serial console (covered up on > some machines) > Status LED's Sounds very similar to what I have here... > > If you're buying 3100's for $200, I've got a pile of about 16 in my > living room... :-) Street price for a 3100/30 with 16 Megs of RAM > is about US$100. Of course, video and/or disk options can substantially > increase the value. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > From rcini at msn.com Sat Jul 12 21:04:33 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Altair Construction Manual Message-ID: To all Altair fans... Well, my more-than-kind individual has provided me with the first of three installments of the original Altair construction manual. He scanned all 102 pages of the doc and made it into a PDF document -- almost 7mb in size. He is also providing me with manuals for "the 88-4K, 88-ACR, and other stuff." I'm not too familiar with all of the available options since the Altair was really before my time, but it looks like the 4k memory board and other stuff. I'm not going to U/L the docs yet, first for size reasons, and second, until we determine if we should try to contact Triumph-Adler... On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Jim Willing wrote: >>So, it can be assumed that TA [Triumph-Adler of Germany] now >>owns all of the rights to things MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them >>on occasion on related matters and have gotten no response of any >>kind to date. Anybody have any thoughts? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From marvin at rain.org Sat Jul 12 22:23:30 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Saturday Haul References: Message-ID: <33C84A32.687A@rain.org> Today was one of those good days/bad days. I ended up with quite a few machines I didn't have but ended up losing out on some stuff. The bad news? I bought an 11/23 w/ HD and it somehow got separated from the stuff I bought and I do not have it now. Second, that Spectragraphics CAD workstation I have been telling people about had 6 Sony color Trinitron monitors, all working, and they sold for $5 each. I am told (after the fact) that they are worth about $500 each on the used equipment market. Good news, I ended up with: Tandy 6000 HD w/docs and software ATT PC7300 w/ some docs and software Three Apple IIe computers w/ 4 floppy drives total Apple IIc computer w/monitor, printer, software, manuals Wang Computer model PC-XC3-2 (docs coming when they get found) Two Commodore 128C computers Non-Linear-Systems Kaypro II Two IBM PC Keyboards Six C64 game cartridges Modem for C64 Radio Shack Printer 386 DX40 w/ 200 MB HD, 6 MB Ram Total outlay was about $30. Ham radio events can be a goldmine for old computer stuff! From thedm at sunflower.com Sat Jul 12 22:45:27 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Saturday Haul Message-ID: <199707130343.WAA07805@challenge.sunflower.com> I need a 128 for my collection, care to part with one? ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Saturday Haul > Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 10:23 PM > > Today was one of those good days/bad days. I ended up with quite a few > machines I didn't have but ended up losing out on some stuff. The bad > news? I bought an 11/23 w/ HD and it somehow got separated from the > stuff I bought and I do not have it now. Second, that Spectragraphics > CAD workstation I have been telling people about had 6 Sony color > Trinitron monitors, all working, and they sold for $5 each. I am told > (after the fact) that they are worth about $500 each on the used > equipment market. > > Good news, I ended up with: > > Tandy 6000 HD w/docs and software > ATT PC7300 w/ some docs and software > Three Apple IIe computers w/ 4 floppy drives total > Apple IIc computer w/monitor, printer, software, manuals > Wang Computer model PC-XC3-2 (docs coming when they get found) > Two Commodore 128C computers > Non-Linear-Systems Kaypro II > Two IBM PC Keyboards > Six C64 game cartridges > Modem for C64 > Radio Shack Printer > 386 DX40 w/ 200 MB HD, 6 MB Ram > > Total outlay was about $30. Ham radio events can be a goldmine for old > computer stuff! From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 12 22:52:02 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:36:56 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199707130352.UAA29641@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > Nope. I've got a Pivot. This was nothing like the Pivot. It was close > to the shape of an Osbourne and it was beige. It was close to the > dimensions of a tower case only it sits horizontally. You are right, that is not a Pivot. Unfortunately I am not sure what it is. > I got mine for free. Like I said, "bogus price". I didn't buy it. I didn't even inquire at the counter. IBM-compatibles (and I think these were fairly so) aren't real interesting to me even if George Morrow did let his name get put on 'em. (Though I do have one of the Osborne 3 flavor...a moment of weakness I guess.) BTW, speaking of Morrow stuff, I met a guy at the Foothill swap meet today who was selling a Micro Decision (claimed to be an MD-11 but two floppies, no hard disk) for $30. I'm not interested -- got two of 'em that I haven't touched for a while -- but thought someone here might be. Has software and manuals but I did not see the big stack of paper-bound manuals that I might expect; the seller said he got it from an ex-Morrow employee and it may have been assembled from excess parts but is functional. Other stuff found at the Foothill swap: Sinclair ZX-80. Well, it's in pieces, but board, case top, case bottom, wall wart...yep, looks like they're all there. $5. First one I've seen in years so I snagged it. A couple of S-100 bits. Some HP employees were perturbed by the prices of quality S-100 gear and so set about designing their own, and it looks like they got to use HP's printed-circuit production facilities. Apparently I missed the chassis but got the junk box for another $5. Included are a pristine blank CPU board of their design, as well as a couple of S-100 bus terminators. S-100 bus terminators with the HP logo, whodathunkit? Part number on the board is 7373-60003, and the board comes with helpful instructions in the traces (no solder mask or silkscreen): TERMINATOR THE LAST BOARD I think there is a story here, and I want to know more of it than I got today. Convergent Tech Workslate, plus printer and serial/parallel box, condition uncertain. $26. Pricey but if I get it cleaned up and working it could make a nice desk toy at the office. What sort of power input do these things want? Xerox 820 board, socketed but ICs not plugged in. Another project that the owner lost interest in. $2. -Frank McConnell From pcoad at crl.com Sat Jul 12 22:57:45 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, James Carter wrote: > We had one of those vibrating football games, what a joke :) > I also vaguely remember in the early 70s a neighbor having some football > game where you made your plays and inserted some plastic disc into a unit > that would tell you how the play went like a sports announcer. > I still have one of those vibrating football games. I always liked it, even if it was not much like modern football (no passing). ObClassicComputers: This is the first message sent to the list by be from an almost classic Sun 3/60. While the 3/60 was introduced in 87, this one was born on 21 June 1988. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 12 23:26:41 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:38:26 GMT References: <2626@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199707130426.VAA01468@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, > or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of > the 9122 if that's any help. There are two flavors of HP 86, the 86A and the 86B. The 86A does not have the built-in GPIB (aka IEEE-488 aka HP-IB). Instead it has three connectors on the back. All three look the same, like Centronics printer connectors but maybe with screw-downs instead of ears. One is for a cable to a Centronics-ish printer. The other two are for cables to external 5.25" floppy drives. The 86B does away with all this and instead has an HP-IB connector. Re: the 9121: yep, single-sided Sony stiffy drives that hold about 300KB I think. It's been too long and I have forgotten just about everything except that the single-sided ones never seemed to hold quite enough (this on HP 150s). HP was an early adopter of the Sony 3.5" stiffies, back when it was not clear that the 3.5" format was going to be the winner from the several sub-5.25" media. You know how 3.5" drives open the metal slider so they can get at the medium? The very earliest drives didn't, and the stiffies didn't spring-load the slider -- it was up to the user to slide the slider before insertion into and after removal from the drive. For a while there were goes-either-way stiffies: slider spring-loaded so that they would close on eject from an auto-open drive, but also with a catch so you could slide the slider over to the left before insertion into a non-auto-open drive, then pinch the corner after removal to release the catch and let the spring pull the slider closed. That is why those stiffies have the legend "PINCH" near that corner. I don't know how pervasive these early drives were. The place where I worked at the time had a few 1983-dated pieces of equipment (a 9121, some 9133XVs) that were the auto-open variety. -Frank McConnell From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 00:08:30 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707130508.AA24592@interlock.ans.net> > I have no idea what to do with it, this is the first time I've ever seen > VMS. I have a 50-user liscense. For those that may not have heard, VMS is available FREE from DECUS for home and hobby use only. Digital is on our side! William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 00:27:20 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <9707122219.AA08830@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199707130527.AA25110@interlock.ans.net> > As long as we're talking about classic hard drives, I can't help but put > in a plug for the Fujitsu Eagle. I know of several commercial sites > which still prefer 15-year old Eagles to modern 3.5" drives for reliability > reasons. I myself have a dozen or so Eagles that hum along just fine. Fujitsu Eagles GOOD? I remember that Fujitsu made a bunch of real dogs in the line, with new drives crashing all over the place. Tucked inside my Sun-4/280 was a thinly veiled letter of apology from Sun, basically stating that they were sorry that they had to ship units with Eagles, and the problems would be sorted out as soon as possible. Incidently, comparing modern micros to yesterday's minis I feel is a bit silly. The minis, being big expensive things, perhaps doing mission critical tasks, were produced to very high standards. One bad unit could really cause a stink and a customer, perhaps worth millions, could be lost. Fujitsu still is "known" for Eagles. Micros (even the classic ones), on the other hand, are built with every cost cutting trick known (including in the QA department), and individual failures, if kept in low numbers, are relatively harmless to the business. No folks, the overall quality of computers has not changed. There were gems and junk in the past, just as there are gems and junk now. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jul 13 01:36:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707130527.AA25110@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jul 13, 97 01:27:20 am Message-ID: <9707130536.AA09268@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1058 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/6970955d/attachment.ksh From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 00:39:58 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:54 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? In-Reply-To: <199707121952.PAA14910@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199707130539.AA25446@interlock.ans.net> > I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals > and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never > heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? Good hardware, horrible software (typical IBM). I am still fighting with the 5363 III at RCS/RI. The S/36 is a minicomputer, not compatible with the 360/370 line. > Third, for anyone that is interested (you pay shipping, plus maybe a few > extra bucks - whatever you think it's worth) the following are also > available: > > 10M HD for an IBM 360 Do you have a part number (a four digit thing)? Also, where is it located (my interest, or rather feasibility, drops after several hundred miles - in any case, I am interested). If it is for a 360, it will be large. Tell us more. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sun Jul 13 01:19:15 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Fwd: TRS80 Hardware and Software Message-ID: <199707130616.XAA00725@mx3.u.washington.edu> This advert appeared in an Australian newsgroup, obviously in error. It turns out the guy is in Milwaukee, WI. Perhaps some of you USA people are interested. Hans Olminkhof FOR SALE: Trs80/Tandy/Radio Shack Hardware & Software Make replies to: Rrotaru@execpc.com As of July 10, 1997 the following items are for sale and are open to any reasonalbe offer (either as a package or individual items). All items MUST go! So, don't wait too long to respond. All items are in working condition unless otherwise noted. You pay for shipping. HARDWARE: (2) Trs80 Model 4's (both need power supplies; 64K Non-Gate Array's) (2) Radio Shack Line Printer VIII's (with extra ribbons)...both work fine. (1) Tandy DT-1 Data Terminal (w/manual, tech manual, spare keyboard & parts) (2) Trs80 Model 1's (each w/ expansion interface, manuals & monitor) (1) Joystick for Model 1 (Big Five "Trisstick") (1) TC-8 cassette interface for Model 1 (with tapes!) (1) Radio Shack Line Printer II interface for Model 1 (1) Microtek MT-32 Printer/Memory module for Model 1 (1) Micro Mint 300 Baud Modem (for Model 1; w/ Comm80 cassette software) (1) Orchestra 90 Stereo Music Synthesizer (for Model 3/4 w/floppies & docs) (5) Single sided/Double density (180K) 5.25" floppy drives (orig. Tandy) (2) Tandy Color Computer 2's (Coco 2) (1) Direct connect modem (300 baud for Coco) (1) Tandy CM-2 Color Monitor (for Coco 3, but will do CGA on IBM-PC's!) SOFTWARE: TRS80 MODEL 1: Advanced Statistical Analysis (cassette) Level 1 Game Pack (cassette) Personal Finance (cassette) Cassette Comm (obvious) Temple of Apshai (cassette game) TRS80 MODEL 3: In Memory Information (cassette) Assembly Language Tutor (cassette - Model 1 & 3, two copies one is sealed) Trs80/Z80 Assembly Language Library (Model 1 & 3; floppies) Computer Graphics (Basic/utils/subroutines; floppy) Compiler Basic (Model 1 & 3; floppy) Series 1 Editor/Assembler Ver. 1.00 (floppy) Trsdos 6.02.00 (orig. disk & manual) Mail/File System Ver. 3.3 (Galactic Software; floppy) Find It Quick-Instant Software (Model 1 & 3; floppy) Mirco Courier Ver. 1.00.00 (floppy) Profile Ver. 3.4 (floppy) Micro Pilot Authoring System Ver. 1.00.00 (floppy) Computer Assisted Reading Development C.A.R.D. (floppy) Basic Course (cassette) Scripsit (text editor; cassette) Lots of cassette software...Mostly Model 3 stuff...some are orig. tapes TRS80 MODEL 4: Profile 4 Plus Ver. 1.00.03 (floppy) Disk Scripsit Ver. 1.00 (text editor; floppy) Target Planner Calc (spreadsheet; floppy) The Producer Ver. 4.0 (create basic programs using plain english; floppy) Deskmate ReportStar (word processing/report creator; CP/M software - Montizuma Micro) COLOR COMPUTER 2/3 (CoCo2 or 3): Mickey's Space Adventure (kid's game, sealed; floppy) Ghana Bwana (kid's game, 2 copies- 1 is sealed; floppy) Color Math (kid's math tutor, 2 copies- 1 is sealed; cassette) Rocky's Boots (kid's game; floppy) Flightsim I (for Coco 3; floppy) Dungeons of Daggorath (kid's game, cartridge) Personal Finance II (cartridge) Color Scripsit (text editor; cartridge) Spectaculator (spreadsheet program; cartridge) BasicOS9 (floppy) OS9 Profile (floppy) Castle of Tharoggao (game; cartridge) Rogue (Coco3; floppy) Kronis Rift (Lucasfilm game, Coco3; floppy) Chromacassette's (several with games and utils; cassettes) MANUALS AND DOCS: Oricle 80 (photo copies) Tandy Home Education Systems - Vidtex Basic Computer Games/More Basic Computer Games Series I Editor/Assembler Tandy Intelligent Modem DC-2212 (manual only- no modem) Profile III Plus (no disk) Super Scripsit (no disk) Trsdos Ver. 6.1.2 (manual only, no disk...copies available upon request) Dow Jones Information Service User Guide Business Mailing List Quick Quiz Lynn's Check Register System (photocopy) Disk Course (photocopy) Teacher Aid (photocopy) T-Bug - Z80 Monitor & Debugging Aid (photocopy) Micro Music (photocopy) Tape Payroll System (photocopy) Cross Reference Utility (photocopy) Host Term (photocopy) Show & Spell (photocopy) Statistical Analysis (photocopy) In Memory Information system (photocopy) BOOKS: Introduction to Trs80 Gaphics - Don Inman Trs80 Graphics - Don Inman Advanced Level II Basic - Don Inman/Bob Albrecht/Ramon Zamora) Using the Trs80 In Your Home - Charles D. Sternberg Trs80 Graphics for the Model 1 & Model 3 - David A. Kater/Susan J. Thomas Visicalc For Your Trs80 - Carol Klitzner/Matthew J. Plociak Jr Visicalc Applications - Robt. E. Williams/Bruce J. Taylor/Brian L. King Business Programming Applications - Wm. Barden (for Model 1/3/2/16) Introdcution to SuperScripsit Word Processing Tandy Source Book (software applications - Vol. 8) Business Programs for the Trs80 Model 1/3 - Charles D. Sternberg The Rest of 80 - 80Micro Magazine Publications 80Micro's Review Guide Trs80 Data File Programming Model 1/3 - Finkel/Brown Encyclopedia for the Trs80 Vol. 1-10 Understanding Digital Computers - Radio Shack Getting Started With Trs80 Basic (Model 1/3/4) - Radio Shack MAGAZINES: Trs80 Microcomputer News (1979-1986, some years complete, some not) 80 Micro (1981-1988; some years complete, some not) MISC IBM & COMPATIBLE STUFF: Model PC-130a 150 Watt switching power supply (new in box...never used) Atari SX212 External 1200 baud modem (For Atari and IBM; Hayes compatible!) Viva 2400 baud Internal Fax/Modem (fax is 9600 send/4800 receive) Telix VGA TTL mono monitor (must have TTL video card) Epson FX-80 printer (still prints ok, carriage needs cleaning) ====================================================================== ====== REPLY TO: Rrotaru@execpc.com ====================================================================== ====== From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jul 13 02:59:18 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? In-Reply-To: <199707130539.AA25446@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jul 13, 97 01:39:58 am Message-ID: <199707130759.DAA16252@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: > > > I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals > > and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never > > heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? > > Good hardware, horrible software (typical IBM). I am still fighting with > the 5363 III at RCS/RI. > While the software IBM sells is often not worth the media it's distributed on, the software used internally is often very good (at least it was for the PC stuff). I still use an Internal Use Only editor written for PC-DOS 1.x in 1982, version 1.0 (no bugs, very small, programmable, can edit multiple files, etc etc). > The S/36 is a minicomputer, not compatible with the 360/370 line. It isn't? I was talking to a friend that said it could run 360/370 software. I guess I'll find out when I get it. > > Third, for anyone that is interested (you pay shipping, plus maybe a few > > extra bucks - whatever you think it's worth) the following are also > > available: > > > > 10M HD for an IBM 360 > > Do you have a part number (a four digit thing)? I'll have the info on Tuesday (Monday maybe). > Also, where is it located (my interest, or rather feasibility, drops > after several hundred miles - in any case, I am interested). If it is for a > 360, it will be large. Somewhere near Boca Raton, home of the IBM PC (and for those still unwise int he ways of U.S. geography, just north of Ft. Lauderdale, which is just north of Miami, Fl). > Tell us more. I will, when I get more information. -spc (Oh good, at least someone heard of it 8-) From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Sun Jul 13 11:25:23 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Dead Thomson To7 -70 Message-ID: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> Hi, Yesterday I recived Thomson To7-70 computer, which is totally dead. When it's working, on display there are only horizontal color lines, each of them has witdh of one character. Is ther anybody who can say me whots's bad. I suppose this can be demaged processor (it's incredibly hot after 2-3 minuters of working), but I am not sure. Thanks, Krzysztof Strzecha From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Sun Jul 13 11:33:03 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5110 Message-ID: <33C9033F.2089@kis.p.lodz.pl> Hi, I'm looking for information about IBM 5110 computer. Is there anybody who can help me ? Thanks Krzysztof Strzecha From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 12:05:24 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? In-Reply-To: <199707130759.DAA16252@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199707131705.AA11931@interlock.ans.net> > It isn't? I was talking to a friend that said it could run 360/370 > software. I guess I'll find out when I get it. It may be able to do emulation, but I think the whole System/3x line is distinct from the mainframe line. I am sure there are similarities between the two lines, however. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 13 12:12:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Oh, and does anyone know what all the plugs on the back do? Dude, with this question you went over the 5 consecutive message per user limit. Get your thoughts together!! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 13 12:23:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707130352.UAA29641@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 12 Jul 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > BTW, speaking of Morrow stuff, I met a guy at the Foothill swap meet > today who was selling a Micro Decision (claimed to be an MD-11 but two > floppies, no hard disk) for $30. I'm not interested -- got two of 'em Yeah, that's too high. I've got one with floppy/harddrive config and I saw one the other day at a thrift store with the dual floppy config. I'm going to get that one to use for parts since the one I have seems to have a flaky power supply or something. When it's booting up the screen keeps rolling and the system seems to keep resetting itself. It finally boots after a while but the process is long and painful. > Convergent Tech Workslate, plus printer and serial/parallel box, > condition uncertain. $26. Pricey but if I get it cleaned up and > working it could make a nice desk toy at the office. What sort of > power input do these things want? I think you got the one that I kept passing up and was planning to get the next time I got around to either Foothill or Las Positas. Damn! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 13:03:53 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Dead Thomson To7 -70 In-Reply-To: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> References: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> Message-ID: <33ce1815.1227907@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:25:23 +0200, you wrote: %Hi, % % Yesterday I recived Thomson To7-70 computer, which is totally dead. %When it's working, on display there are only horizontal color lines, %each of them has witdh of one character. Is ther anybody who can say me %whots's bad. I suppose this can be demaged processor (it's incredibly %hot after 2-3 minuters of working), but I am not sure. Is that machine customised for your country's TV system? The TO7 is a French computer and uses French SECAM output. If your country uses PAL, you may need to use the Peritel output (if there's one) instead of the modulator. I think some countries use a different SECAM than the French one. Ben From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Sun Jul 13 13:49:32 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Dead Thomson To7 -70 References: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> <33ce1815.1227907@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33C9233C.5F23@kis.p.lodz.pl> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:25:23 +0200, you wrote: > > %Hi, > % > % Yesterday I recived Thomson To7-70 computer, which is totally > dead. > %When it's working, on display there are only horizontal color lines, > %each of them has witdh of one character. Is ther anybody who can say > me > %whots's bad. I suppose this can be demaged processor (it's incredibly > %hot after 2-3 minuters of working), but I am not sure. > > Is that machine customised for your country's TV system? The TO7 is a > French computer and uses French SECAM output. If your country uses > PAL, you may need to use the Peritel output (if there's one) instead > of the modulator. I think some countries use a different SECAM than > the French one. > > Ben I suppose this is not that kind of problem. In this computer is anly SCART connector, which I used. Krzysiek From dlw at neosoft.com Sun Jul 13 10:18:06 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: <2626@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199707132016.PAA10931@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 13 Jul 97 at 0:38, Tony Duell wrote: > I can't tell you much about it, although if it's the machine I am thinking > of, the monitor is actually a separate box that locks in place. It's a > 68000-based machine, and has GPIB as standard. SOme of them have a ROM board > containing (I think) HP-basic, while others boot from floppy. That sounds like it. The monitor was locked on forming one piece but looked like it might be removable. Sounds interesting anyway. I'll probably pick it up with the other stuff but as with most systems I find, I'll have to search for doc and software now. Guess I'll poke around the web and newsgroups. > The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, > or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of > the 9122 if that's any help. Ok, you've lost me on that one. What is the GPIB? Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 17:11:29 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I gather this rates as a classic at least :^) Been working on my Weekend haul, and having only ever had a Vic 20 (which sadly I gave away years ago), I'm somewhat out of my depth. My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga 500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on the display. I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is why I switched to computers). Then there is the Amiga 500. About a month ago, I'd picked up a copy of "Bards Tale" for the Amiga, so I know it works. Problem is I don't have a copy of the two floppies that came with the computer originally (also got the manual for this at Powells). I think I've got the Kickstart 1.2 ROMs (it has a 1.2 on the screen when asking for the Workbench disk). Where can I get the disks? I don't suppose it's like the Apple IIgs software that you can now download. The second Amiga question would be, is it possible to hook up Apple IIgs, or Macintosh 3 1/2" external floppy drive with a Amiga? I somehow doubt it, but... Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 17:10:27 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone happen to have information about constructing a video cable for one of these beasts? I managed to get the computer, power supply, and what looks like a cable for a casette deck, but no video cable :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ampage at geocities.com Sun Jul 13 17:28:35 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Video References: Message-ID: <33C95693.5B044CA7@geocities.com> It takes a standard 5-pin DIN cable. The pinouts are on Rich Polivka's TI page at http://w3.gwis.com/~polivka/994apg.html From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jul 13 16:32:28 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Extra stuff to go Message-ID: <199707132132.RAA12615@unix.aardvarkol.com> Ben, I recieved your money order in the mail, but due to my work schedule, it's likely I won't be able to try and ship the Model 4 until at least Tuesday. I'll let you knwo as soon as I ship. Thanks. Jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 18:38:35 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. Message-ID: <2684@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > what is a PDP? choices 1,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,11/780,11/750,11/730? Got something against the PDP12 and PDP15, then ? :-) [Sorry, couldn't resist it!] > Allison -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 18:40:45 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <2685@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > There are two flavors of HP 86, the 86A and the 86B. Thanks for the info - I've only used 86B's. > Re: the 9121: yep, single-sided Sony stiffy drives that hold about > 300KB I think. It's been too long and I have forgotten just about > everything except that the single-sided ones never seemed to hold > quite enough (this on HP 150s). Probalby 320 or 360K bytes (at least on the 150 - is the 9121 supported on the 150 - my manuals are silent on the subject...). It's 80 track single-sided, and thus the same size as a double-sided 40 track disk. > You know how 3.5" drives open the metal slider so they can get at the > medium? The very earliest drives didn't, and the stiffies didn't > spring-load the slider -- it was up to the user to slide the slider > before insertion into and after removal from the drive. I've also seen disks that open automatically, but stay open when ejected. You 'pinch' them to close them. They did not close automatically on ejection from any drive. > -Frank McConnell -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 18:45:12 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <2686@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > > The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, > > or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of > > the 9122 if that's any help. > > Ok, you've lost me on that one. What is the GPIB? GPIB = General-Purpose Interface Bus. Aka IEEE-488, and very similar to HPIB (= Hewlett-Packard Interface bus). HP were the company who designed it, but it turns up on all sorts of machines. It's an 8-bit parallel interface using a 24 pin connector. 8 pins are ground, 8 are data, 3 are handshake, and 5 are bus control/management. It was originally designed to link up lab equipment (DVMs, counters, digital 'scopes, etc), but HP use it as a general peripheral bus (disk drives, plotters, printers, etc) on some of their micros. Commodore used it for much the same purpose (although with looser timing requirements) on the PETs > David Williams - Computer Packrat -tony From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 13 18:46:24 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Zane H. Healy wrote: > My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked > up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the > drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's > what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga > 500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the > drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on > the display. Sounds like the ever so common Dead Commie Syndrome. > I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even > if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do > I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? Nope. It's probably just dead. > The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power > supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It Nope. It's another ailment called Dead Commie Power Supply Syndrome. Quite common. > looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & > New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your > Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some > documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, > so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is > why I switched to computers). Do this: go out and search for 10. This will give you a large enough sample group. If you're lucky, 5 of the 10 will work. Throw the 5 that don't work out. Keep the other 4 working ones around so that when the first fails (it will, give it 2 days) you have 4 other spares. Expect to find 20% of your 4 spares spontaneously dead. All these statistics have been formulated in a recent study (conducted 40 seconds ago) based on real-life data. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From transit at primenet.com Sun Jul 13 19:17:51 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Video Brain In-Reply-To: <199707022057.QAA08031@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf wrote: > > >Sam Ismail wrote: > > One of the > >> systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a > >> video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this > >> system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody > >> knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and > >> for me to comprehend it. > >Video brain was made by a firm called UMTECH, used a microprocessor > >called F8 and had 1 to 4K of RAM memory. It was possible to store the > >data on cassette and, you are right there, it had many plug-in > >cartridges with games on them. It was sold mainly through departments > >stores and specialty electronic stores (at least that is what "A > >Collector's guide to personal computers" book has to say about it) > > I remeber reading a little blurb about Video Brain in the April 1981 Creative Computing. Essentially, by that time the company had gone out of business. . . From transit at primenet.com Sun Jul 13 19:19:32 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor In-Reply-To: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C752@consulting.ensemble.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > Does anyone remember this machine : > > > > it's a video game console (like the atari VCS) but which could sit on > > a box which then converts it to a home computer. > > > > The machine ran on a 6800 and had built-in basic. > > > > It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series > > (78-79?) > > > > I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was > > "imagination machine". > > > > > > Ben > > > > Ahh, the "APF Imagination Machine" I believe. Somewhere I have a > > single cartridge for it. > > > > -Mp > I heard about it from Popular Electronics magazine in early 1981 or so. The video chip was the same as that used in the TRS80 Color Computer, if I remember correctly . . . From george.lin at documentum.com Sun Jul 13 19:20:26 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <01BC8FB1.0FE9DFA0.george.lin@documentum.com> Zane, Are you trying to connect the 1702 monitor to the C128 RF port? It won't work. The 1702 monitor should be connected to the C128 VIDEO port via a special cable. The VIDEO port outputs composite video signal. The RF port outputs VHS Channel 3 or 4 and is used for TV connection. George -- George Lin Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) Manager, Data/Voice Communi- Phone/Fax: 510-463-6800/6850 cation & End-User Computing http://www.documentum.com Email Fax mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [SMTP:healyzh@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 1997 3:11 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Some Commie questions Hi, I gather this rates as a classic at least :^) Been working on my Weekend haul, and having only ever had a Vic 20 (which sadly I gave away years ago), I'm somewhat out of my depth. My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga 500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on the display. I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is why I switched to computers). Then there is the Amiga 500. About a month ago, I'd picked up a copy of "Bards Tale" for the Amiga, so I know it works. Problem is I don't have a copy of the two floppies that came with the computer originally (also got the manual for this at Powells). I think I've got the Kickstart 1.2 ROMs (it has a 1.2 on the screen when asking for the Workbench disk). Where can I get the disks? I don't suppose it's like the Apple IIgs software that you can now download. The second Amiga question would be, is it possible to hook up Apple IIgs, or Macintosh 3 1/2" external floppy drive with a Amiga? I somehow doubt it, but... Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From sinasohn at crl.com Sun Jul 13 23:23:42 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970713212513.4fafd4da@ricochet.net> At 07:48 PM 7/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >I think that was RS. I had one of those too. Got pretty boring pretty >quick, cause you could fake down, go up three times and spaz on the >forward button for a guaranteed first down every time. (or was it a >guaranteed TD? I can't remember.) guaranteed TD. Yep, that's it. 8^) It may have been boring, but it was better than studying! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 23:15:47 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions In-Reply-To: <01BC8FB1.0FE9DFA0.george.lin@documentum.com> Message-ID: George, >Are you trying to connect the 1702 monitor to the C128 RF port? It won't >work. The 1702 monitor should be connected to the C128 VIDEO port via a >special cable. The VIDEO port outputs composite video signal. The RF >port outputs VHS Channel 3 or 4 and is used for TV connection. Many thanks, thats exactly what I was trying to do. I had thought that since it worked on the Amiga 500, that it would work for the C128. I've now got it hooked up to a 4" TV that I've got, which in my overloaded computer collection is actually better :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 14 00:36:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: ComRiter References: <1.5.4.16.19970713212513.4fafd4da@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <33C9BAC3.4A4E@rain.org> I have a printer that is labeled as a ComRiter Printer, and as I was checking though some other stuff, I found I have a brand new Comrex keyboard for a ComRiter. Now the only question is, what is this thing called a ComRiter :)? From dlw at neosoft.com Sun Jul 13 19:46:25 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Video Brain In-Reply-To: References: <199707022057.QAA08031@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: <199707140544.AAA03170@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 13 Jul 97 at 17:17, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > I remeber reading a little blurb about Video Brain in the April 1981 > Creative Computing. Essentially, by that time the company had gone out > of business. . . I missed the little blurb in my April 1981 issue but do see a couple of articles on the Video Brain in the Feb '79 and Mar '79 issues of Creative Computing. Says they used the F8 processor. I've heard of it but don't know much about it. Anyone know how it compared to say the 8080 which the article says was the other processor they considered using. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jul 14 02:28:51 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: F8 chip was Video Brain In-Reply-To: <199707140544.AAA03170@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, David Williams wrote: > On 13 Jul 97 at 17:17, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > I remeber reading a little blurb about Video Brain in the April 1981 > > Creative Computing. Essentially, by that time the company had gone out > > of business. . . > > I missed the little blurb in my April 1981 issue but do see a couple > of articles on the Video Brain in the Feb '79 and Mar '79 issues of > Creative Computing. Says they used the F8 processor. I've heard of > it but don't know much about it. Anyone know how it compared to say > the 8080 which the article says was the other processor they > considered using. > The F8 was made by Fairchild. IIRC is was the brain of the Channel F video game system. The blurb below is from the "Microprocessor Cookbook" by Michael F. Hordeski (this is a TAB book and I am typing, so be careful). The F8 is a multichip NMOS microprocessor system that is designed around a bus architecture. The heart of the system is the CPU chip. When this combind with the program storage unit (PSU) which contains a masked ROM, timing and interrupt control, a minimal system configuration is obtained. The memory interface unit contains the memory address registers and address buss not contained in the CPU. The DMA chimp contains the hold and wait circuitry required for direct memory access. ... The CPU chip contains sixty four bytes of scratch-pad memory which can eliminate the need for random-access memory in simple applications. ... The data bus provides the external interface through two sets of eight- bit input/output ports. Transfer gates are used to move data from the data bus and external busses for processing. The CPU chip also includes a clock and power-on-reset circuits, but it does not contain a program counter or memory address registers. These are included in one of the companion chips. Without the address registers there is no need for an address bus, and this reduces the CPU chip count. ... The F8 was a 2 chip design (there was a later 1 chip version). The main competitor was the Intel 8048. Below is a comparison chart from "Microprocessors from chips to systems" by Rodnay Zaks: 8080 F8 Technology PMOS NMOS # of Instructions 69 70 Cycle Time (uS) 1, 3, 1.5, 2 2 to 13 Direct addressing (bits) 16 16 Registers 7 1 + RAM Stack(levels) soft external sp interrupts 1 1 on-chip clock - - ROM(bytes) - - RAM(words) - 64 timer - - PFR - - I/O lines - 16 package (pins) 40 40 Power supply (V) +5, -5, +12 +5, +12 HTH, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 14 08:49:03 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <9706148688.AA868895555@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) What!?!?! Do you mean the East German Robotron Elektronik, or is this another company with the same name? If the former, do you know what the Robotron 7022 is/was? I think it is a micro of early '80s vintage. I have a Robotron 7622 - a large (5U rack mount) box that appears to be the console for it (lamps and switches and four 7-segment hex digits). I am trying to reverse engineer but am having problems with Russian chip numbers. Sometime soon I shall make a longer posting on this subject... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 14 09:15:49 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? Message-ID: <9706148688.AA868897174@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals > and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never > heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? The S/36 is a minicomputer from the early 1980s (?). It replaced the system/34, although I still had to work on one of the latter as a student in 1985-6. I don't think I have much documentation on the S/36, but I have some on the S/34, including an OCL (operation control language - rather like JCL) reference which might help you. The 5364 was a late S/36, the Desktop model. It comes in a box that looks remarkably like a PC/AT (the only external difference being the disk drive bays I think). Unfortunately its floppy drive is 5 1/4 inch, where all other S/36s at that date had 8 inch. Trivia information: The largest S/36, together with the S/34 and a word processing system of which I can no longer remember the number, all had the nicest floppy drive I have ever seen. It took twenty-three disks - three singly and two cassettes of ten each - on a moving carriage (tautology??). It moved the carriage until the appropriate disk was opposite the hole, then sucked it in and read/wrote it. Fast. :-) Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 14 12:04:22 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706148689.AA868907254@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > My Datamaster Troubles... > Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least > could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no > manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen > during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number: "09" and I'm > assuming that this is a hardware failure code. > I have the "Diagnostic" diskette, but since I think that the floppies are > not working (or the diskette is now bad), it's useless. I must admit, I haven't booted mine recently. It is just about visible under the pile of junk in that part of my computer room... I can, however, easily get at the manuals. The service manual is not much use, I'm afraid, but I can look up the diagnostic codes for you. I shall try and do this this evening, and post it tomorrow, but I can't promise anything. Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 07:45:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: F8 chip was Video Brain Message-ID: <199707141245.AA27270@world.std.com> :> Technology PMOS NMOS This is wrong. both are N-channel silicone gate NMOS. :> # of Instructions 69 70 What this doesn't tell is that the F8 had a very weak instruction set. doing something like xoring a byte was tedious to say the least. The 8080 instruction set was far more general. The F8 was aimed at the market that the 8048 and 8051 would later dominate, IE: single chip MPUs of general application. Also april '78 KILOBAUD had an article speculating on how to use a VB system as a cheap graphic peripheral. Allison From ampage at geocities.com Mon Jul 14 07:55:04 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") References: <9706148688.AA868895555@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <33CA21A8.FDE55B13@geocities.com> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > Uncle Roger wrote: > > > (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) > > What!?!?! > > Do you mean the East German Robotron Elektronik, or is this another > company with the same name? I have a feeling he's referring to Robotron: 2084, a classic arcade game by Williams... From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 09:09:39 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <199707120243.VAA18585@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <4C5C0FB4219@ifrsys.com> > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:45:51 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "thedm" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Classic Video Games > X-To: > Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason > they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. > I remember it like it was yesterday. My girlfriend at the time had one (it was about 1978, I think) had one. She could almost always win that damned thing (in difficult mode). I never got any good at it. Jeff From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 10:07:02 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Message-ID: <4FA5E866D98@ifrsys.com> Here's a real classic for ya. I'd have killed for a system like this one, but married life, no room, no time, blah blah blah . . . Maybe someone out there wants this. Jeff ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Path: Supernews70!supernews.com!news.he.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwel l.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hookup!winternet.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Tousignant Newsgroups: comp.sys.m6809 Subject: 6800 Exorciser System Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:39:30 -0500 Organization: Acme Lines: 7 Message-ID: <33C51042.42DB9891@pcpros.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin45.pcpros.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i586) Xref: Supernews70 comp.sys.m6809:186 Anyone have a use for a Motorola 6800 Exorcisor System? This is a real antique - we're talkin dual 8" drives here, 6809 assembler, all kinds of add on cards. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 09:44:55 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707121259.FAA09709@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E62F444A07@ifrsys.com> > Date: 12 Jul 1997 05:59:37 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Frank McConnell > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: PAM computer, Convergent? > Sam Ismail writes: > > Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to > > be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like > > one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up > > close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen > > built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. > > A Morrow Pivot. Portable, battery-operated MS-DOS machine; I'm not > sure how IBM-compatible it is. Made by Vadem in Milpitas, OEMd by > Morrow as the Pivot, Zenith as something (think they sold a bunch to > the IRS), Osborne as the Osborne 3. > > Keep your eyes open, there are others out there. I've seen one at > Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ > bogus price for it, something like $100. > > -Frank McConnell > Funny you should mention these guys. I don't uderstand how they've managed to stay in business! I *really* needed a couple of 8" floppy drives a couple of years ago when I lived in San Jose. They had a pile of them -- for $75.00 a whack! I didn't bite. They were gone a couple of weeks later, I asked what became of them, and they said that nobody wanted them, so they were scrapped! Have you ever seen a grown man cry? Jeff From HamiJohn at aol.com Mon Jul 14 09:47:50 1997 From: HamiJohn at aol.com (HamiJohn@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5110 Message-ID: <970714104633_-291873603@emout02.mail.aol.com> Hi, Had one at work in the late 70's/early 80's. What specifically would you like to know? John Hamilton hamijohn@aol.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:17:55 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <01IL7ZPW0V6UA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> > > > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > > > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > > > > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > > Are you referring to the AppleCat? Nope, I'm referring to a plain old Novation CAT 300 baud acoustic coupled modem. I saved it from the trash heap a few years ago because I was going on travel somewhere that I knew A) I would have to do some remote access from my hotel room and 2) the hotel room didn't have modular jacks. It was the only acoustic coupler I could find and worked great. I haven't had the heart to toss it out since. BTW, this would have been about '92 that I was using 300 baud modems from hotel rooms... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:19:05 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <01IL7ZT9CSWCA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this >> Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > >Hmm; I just picked one of these up with an incomplete Apple ][plus system >that I haven't yet had time to muck with, short of cleaning it up a bit. >What's special about it? Absolutely nothing. It's a standard 300 baud modem. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:33:29 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS Message-ID: <01IL803BZF1EA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> > As I have no username/password, I can't shut it down right! > How do I shut down VMS without losing the harddisk? > Can I just power it off? OK, a few things about VMS. To break into VMS, boot it /1 like this: >>> b/1 It will give you a SYSBOOT> prompt, at which time you tell it to use the console for the startup command file: SYSBOOT> set/start=opa0: SYSBOOT> continue Then it'll boot farther and give you a $ prompt. What I usually do here is this: $ spawn <<< spawning SYSTEM_1 message >> $ @sys$system:startup This executes the startup file. When the startup file exits, you get the $ prompt back. At that point, you can: $ spawn $ set def sys$system: $ mc authorize UAF> set system/password=whatever UAF> ^Z $ At this point, you can either shut the system down: $ @sys$system:shutdown [[[ you can punch return to all the questions ]]] and power cycle the system or just hit the power switch. Unlike Unix, VMS doesn't eat the disk if the power goes out unexpectedly; normally, you'll want to shut it down with the shutdown command, though (what happens if any files are open is that blocks allocated to those files are marked as allocated in the bitmap but not recorded as belonging to those files in the directory; if you just turn the power off, you'll essentially lose space on the mounted disks that have open files). The next time you boot, the system will remember that it wants to use the console as the startup command file, so you'll have to do the "conversational boot" again and set it back: >>> b/1 SYSBOOT> set/start=sys$system:startup.com SYSBOOT> continue Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 10:54:25 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> References: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <525C391161A@ifrsys.com> Guys: I have a few WD-1000 host adaptors, and I need to get some information about them. Western Dig. is of not much help-- their web site dosen't carry docs from that far back. I used to have a chart delineating what controller card was what, but I've since lost it. There aren't PeeCee host adaptors; rather they are the same footprint as a 5.25' floppy drive (actually, one is bigger). One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would really appreciate it. Thanks Jeff From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 11:41:44 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <525C391161A@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 09:54:25 am Message-ID: <9707141541.AA10635@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/818d0fe0/attachment.ksh From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 13:45:57 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Apple IIe System Disks and Manuals Available References: <199707141245.AA27270@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33CA73E5.760F@mindspring.com> There is a set of system disks and about 6 or 7 various manuals for the AppleIIe for sale in the local thrift shop. I didn't buy then because I have no apples! The price is 4.00 and the disks (one 3.5", one 5 1/4") look in new condition. There are a couple of shrinkwrapped manuals among the pile. If anyone needs these, or is interested in them, please let me know, and I will go pick them up. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:55:25 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors Message-ID: <01IL80UB1KEGA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> >> I have a few WD-1000 host adaptors, and I need to get some >> information about them. Western Dig. is of not much help-- their web >> site dosen't carry docs from that far back. >> >> I used to have a chart delineating what controller card was what, but >> I've since lost it. There aren't PeeCee host adaptors; rather they >> are the same footprint as a 5.25' floppy drive (actually, one is >> bigger). > >I'm pretty sure that these aren't host adapters; I think they're >controllers in the traditional SCSI sense. (i.e. you sandwich >them between the SCSI bus and a MFM or ESDI drive.) Somewhere I have docs on the WD1002-05 which, IIRC, has a WD1000-compatible hardware interface. The exception is that the WD1000 supplies a WAIT signal and the WD1002 doesn't. "The WD1002-05 has been designed to interface to a Host processor via a parallel port or CPU bus configurations. The specific signals are compatible with the WD1000/WD1001 series of Winchester-only controller boards. With the inclusion of the WD1015, the previous WAIT signal is no longer necessary, but has been provided for compatability; status information is always available to the Host for monitoring command progress. When the Busy bit is set, no other status bits are valid." The host connector is a 40 pin connector. Of this, all even pins are grounds. The other pins are: 1 -15 : DAL0 through DAL7 respectively 17-21 : A0 through A2, respectively 23 : CS 25 : WE 27 : RE 29 : Pulled up on the WD1002; this is probably WAIT on the 1000. 31, 33: Not connected 35 : Interrupt request 37 : DMA request 39 : Reset I suspect the interrupt request, DMA request, and Reset ar all asserted high; the photocopied manual section I have doesn't make this clear. The WD1002 is programmed like an IDE controller with an 8-bit data register. I suspect the WD1000 is as well. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 14 11:33:38 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714123338.006b68a0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 03:57 AM 7/13/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, James Carter wrote: > >> We had one of those vibrating football games, what a joke :) >> >I still have one of those vibrating football games. I always liked it, >even if it was not much like modern football (no passing). > >--pec The one we had did have passing. A little foam football with a spring-loaded quarterback. I lost interest playing it just three times, after watching all the pieces vibrate everywhere except where you wanted them to. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 12:02:03 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <9707141541.AA10635@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <525C391161A@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 09:54:25 am Message-ID: <563BD257A06@ifrsys.com> > > I have a few WD-1000 host adaptors, and I need to get some > > information about them. Western Dig. is of not much help-- their web > > site dosen't carry docs from that far back. > > > > I used to have a chart delineating what controller card was what, but > > I've since lost it. There aren't PeeCee host adaptors; rather they > > are the same footprint as a 5.25' floppy drive (actually, one is > > bigger). > > I'm pretty sure that these aren't host adapters; I think they're > controllers in the traditional SCSI sense. (i.e. you sandwich > them between the SCSI bus and a MFM or ESDI drive.) Ah, yeah, they're CONTROLLER cards. Can you tell I've spent WAY too much time in the PeeCee business? > > > One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If > > anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would > > really appreciate it. > > The Emulex SCSI controllers (adapting to MFM, SMD, or ESDI drives) are also ^^^^^^ I have a *MAJOR* axe to grind with these guys, dating from way back, BTW. > known by the folks who hang out on the Sun newsgroups (especially > comp.sys.sun.hardware). They might know something about other brands, > too. Cool. I'll follow this lead, and see where it takes me. Jeff From smorang at enm.maine.edu Mon Jul 14 11:54:24 1997 From: smorang at enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: He shoots! He Boots! Heath Lives! References: <3.0.32.19970712001937.00a44650@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33CA59C0.68E40FF8@enm.maine.edu> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Whilst in a self-induced trance, Stacy C. Morang happened to blather: > >On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > You're right, but they seem to format to only 320K (8 sectors/track, not 9) > with the DOS I do have, which is listed in the stats of the machine I > listed below... If you give the format program a '/9' parameter you get nine sectors, at least in dos 2. > >Top, I think. (I have one, but I only got it for the Winchester drive > >card). > > Whaddya did with the rest? A few spare parts might be nice (or a color > tube, if yours had it... ;-) No color tube (you can activate color on the video card with 18 64K (or 32K) memory chips (4164, I believe)) - I might be able to help with some things, however I am keeping the machine as a backup / parts for my Low-profile unit (I need one to make 8" formatted disks). > > I don't doubt your memory, but I think this is a (prolly earlier) version > of the monitor rom... specs to follow. I fat-fingered *all* the keys on it, > and here's what works: > > B -- boots. Accepts parameters of: 0, 1, 2, 3, and that tells it what > floppy to boot from. Plain B assumes floppy 0, which is top. Thanks! All > else beeps with invalid parameter, except "S", which appears to do nothing. > Would this be boot from the serial port, perchance? > > V -- Version of the monitor rom, which is Version 1.02. > > Nothing else worked... I think the version I have is 1.05, but I'm just guessing. > Questions: > > 2. How high can this rascal go in memory? I located 3 banks (9 each -- > parity) of 64kx1 300ns DRAM, two of which are populated. Mathmatically, > that works to: 128K RAM. The third bank is empty. Can I pop in 9 more chips > without setting any jumpers/dipswitches? How about bigger DRAMS? (prolly > not... but it's worth an ask!) Still, 192K is still pretty good for a > machine from '82! Yes, you can add 64K DRAMS - the heath versions came with 128K, the Zenith (for business use, presumably) came with 192. If you change a couple of the PALs, and depending on how on how old it is, maybe something else, you probably can put 256K DRAMS in it. There are several documents that talk about such modifications, look in SIMTEL-20 archives, among others. > (also, on the question of jumpers... anyone have a tech-like manual for > this thing I could get a copy of... or at least a copy of the important > pages?) I have most, if not all of the technical stuff, I'll have to dig it out as it is packed away, so don't let me forget. > > 3. The video board which is based on the Motorola 68A45P video chip, > presently has 64K onboard for *just* the green section of the board. The chips may be 32K parts (64k parts with one half dead). This > rascal can handle 192K Video Memory!!! Funky! ;^> (that is, if I'm reading > the boards right.... but CHKDSK doesn't return the added video memory, so > that'd seem correct.) Does the board support any form of graphics? I tried > the standard basic commands (ZBasic was on the floppy) but it seemed only > to work in text. Yes, it does handle graphics, (you can get 640x400 out of it with out too much difficulty). I don't remember how ZBasic, which is not the same as GW-BASIC or BASICA, makes graphics. > Well folks, I havta say: This is one *sweet* machine! :-) It is much more sophisticated and capable than the IBM-PC, but was marketed rather poorly. I still have a review on it somewhere. > >I'm not sure what the licensing requirements are, however, I do have > >several OS's for the machine - I'm sure something can be worked out. > > Did Heath/Zenith bundle an OS with the disk systems? If so, wouldn't I own > a license to own a copy of the included OS, as I own the machine? I'm not > sure how stuff like that works, especially on the old stuff. > Nope. That was separate, as you had choices. I doubt anyone is too keen on suing over a copy of Z-Dos 1.25, (or the P-system for that matter), but it would be wise to try to see if anyone cares. -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 14 12:33:18 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: help with NCR 1203-6000? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > I may have a chance to get a NCR Model 1203-6000 (it's about one step > from abandonment). It appears to work and run both CP/M-80 and MS-DOS. > On the serial number sticker it lists its manufacturer as NCR GmbH- am I > to assume this may mean it is of German origin? I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with that model, I didn't get involved with NCR PC's until 1988. I do know that most of NCR's PC's were built in West Germany through 1989 at least. (In early '90 I got uninvolved with NCR systems, so I don't know subsequent manufacturing practices, but I did take apart an NCR PC-925 once, and it had an AMI motherboard). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 12:17:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <4E62F444A07@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a > ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ > Funny you should mention these guys. I don't uderstand how they've > managed to stay in business! I *really* needed a couple of 8" floppy > drives a couple of years ago when I lived in San Jose. They had a > pile of them -- for $75.00 a whack! I didn't bite. > > They were gone a couple of weeks later, I asked what became of them, > and they said that nobody wanted them, so they were scrapped! Some of these surplus stores have real turkeys running them. That's why Weird Stuff fell from glory. They always had cool stuff (they had a couple Lisa's when I went there in 1993) but they always wanted ridiculous prices for the crap. I mean they had stuff going for $50 that nobody would take at a flea market for free. Some people just have no business sense... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 12:12:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 14 12:59:02 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > There is also a 'Miniframe' that Convergent produced, and I've had more > luck finding info on. I get the impression, though, that it's more of a > standard PC-type box than the modular ones that you and I have stumbled on > to. I have the Miniframe FAQ version 0.7 on my box here, in postscript > form. I haven't read it yet. The ASCII version I found was only at version > 0.3 and not particularly helpful. The "Miniframe" (like all Convergent *frame systems) was based on a Motorola CPU, not Intel, therefore it was actually functional. Its normal operating system was Convergent's version of Unix, CTIX. It was first cousin to the AT&T Unix PC Model 7300 and 3B1, which Convergent also built. (And in my not in the least humble opinion, the Unix PC is _still_ one of the most aesthetically pleasing desktop systems _ever_ put on the market). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 14 12:42:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: Apple IIe System Disks and Manuals Available In-Reply-To: <33CA73E5.760F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Scott: I am VERY interested in those Apple ][e items.... would you pick them up for me. I would pay the initial cost ($4 ??), plus your shipping, and maybe a couple of bucks for your effort? Thanks a lot, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > There is a set of system disks and about 6 or 7 various manuals for the > AppleIIe for sale in the local thrift shop. I didn't buy then because I > have no apples! The price is 4.00 and the disks (one 3.5", one 5 1/4") > look in new condition. There are a couple of shrinkwrapped manuals among > the pile. > > If anyone needs these, or is interested in them, please let me know, and > I will go pick them up. > > Kirk Scott > dynasoar@mindspring.com > From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 14 13:18:54 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:55 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: <33C767B7.6142@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. That conflicts with my memories. Remember, the Lisa didn't appear for six years after the Apple II. Jobs is the one who talked Woz into redesigning his homebrew system for production. Far from being against the Apple II, that machine was what kept Jobs eating long enough to fail with the Lisa and barely break even with the early Mac systems. (We needn't discuss his more recent "successes" -- even though I thought the NeXt cubes were pretty neat). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 14:23:51 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <563BD257A06@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 11:02:03 am Message-ID: <9707141823.AA11496@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/8b5f9def/attachment.ksh From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 14 13:33:46 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: <199707141433_MC2-1AD7-A507@compuserve.com> Message text written by Sam: >I figure total shipping costs will be $4 for a single unit, $5 for a couple, etc. Not sure exactly. I realize the shipping costs may not be what some people bargained for so at this point I would ask that if you want to or need to back out, please do it soon. I am going to try and negotiate a lump sum for the total units that will hopefully bring the cost per unit to $7. That's what I'm shooting for.< I don't know why anyone in their right mind would back out. You said originally $10 per unit, and if the above figures work out, that would end up $12 for a single unit delivered; not bad at all. In fact, for the folks who asked for two, the above figures would product $19 delivered, CHEAPER than you originally said. Still, you're left doing an awful lot of packaging, etc. You might at least want to build in $1-$2 a unit "profit" just to compensate for all your time and effort. On 400 units, that would at least get you a few nice dinners! Please accept our thanks for all your work on this. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 14 13:59:44 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? References: Message-ID: <33CA7720.D75@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. If it was IBM, it probably would have been a good thing to grab onto (assuming the price was right!) I've been working with this stuff (MS-DOS machines) since about 1983 and I have yet to see one. Another thing I've been looking for without success is an IBM Cassette recorder for the IBM PC cassette interface. I've heard they really do exist. From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 17:18:57 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: WD1002-05 (Was Western Digital Host Adaptors) References: <33CA7720.D75@rain.org> Message-ID: <33CAA5D1.186B@mindspring.com> Roger Ivie wrote: >Somewhere I have docs on the WD1002-05 which, IIRC, has a WD1000-compatible >hardware interface. The exception is that the WD1000 supplies a WAIT signal >and the WD1002 doesn't. ... I am DESPERATELY in need of a WD1002-05 to rejuvenate a Xerox 16/8! Do you have one or know where I can get one? I believe that certain Kaypro models used this same controller. Would you be willing to share those docs? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jul 14 14:48:00 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <970714154716_1047778008@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-14 11:38:57 EDT, you write: actually, i've heard that novation applecat modem was desired by the hacker/phone phreak crowd because of it's abilities. i think it could emulate the dialing tones and do dtmf to make free phone calls. anyone have any correct or detailed info about this? << >> I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this >> Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > >Hmm; I just picked one of these up with an incomplete Apple ][plus system >that I haven't yet had time to muck with, short of cleaning it up a bit. >What's special about it? Absolutely nothing. It's a standard 300 baud modem. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu >> david From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Jul 14 15:06:47 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: GPIB in chemical labs (adding to Re: HP 9836, HP 86) Message-ID: <199707142006.WAA00324@mbox.queen.it> At 23:45 13/07/97 GMT, you wrote: >>GPIB = General-Purpose Interface Bus. Aka IEEE-488, and very similar to >HPIB (= Hewlett-Packard Interface bus). HP were the company who designed it, >but it turns up on all sorts of machines. > >It's an 8-bit parallel interface using a 24 pin connector. 8 pins are ground, >8 are data, 3 are handshake, and 5 are bus control/management. It was >originally designed to link up lab equipment (DVMs, counters, digital 'scopes, But also for interfacing Analytical Instruments (Spectrophotometers, Gas Chromatography etc.) for chemical laboratory, where HP is still one of the most important developing company, and where GPIB is still used. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 14:46:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? In-Reply-To: <33CA7720.D75@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. > > If it was IBM, it probably would have been a good thing to grab onto > (assuming the price was right!) I've been working with this stuff > (MS-DOS machines) since about 1983 and I have yet to see one. Another > thing I've been looking for without success is an IBM Cassette recorder > for the IBM PC cassette interface. I've heard they really do exist. Hmmm, yeah I was re-considering that one. I'm going over there today so if its still there I'll grab it. Haven't found a IBM cassette recorder either but I did pick up an IBM joystick (had IBM logo on it and the word "Joystick") plus it had a funky square connector which looked like it goes to the PCjr. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jul 14 15:33:40 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: "Jeff Kaneko"'s message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:44:55 -0600 References: <4E62F444A07@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Jeff Kaneko" wrote: > > Halted in Santa Clara > Funny you should mention these guys. I don't uderstand how they've > managed to stay in business! I *really* needed a couple of 8" floppy > drives a couple of years ago when I lived in San Jose. They had a > pile of them -- for $75.00 a whack! I didn't bite. I think Weird Stuff pulled something like this around December 1995, not too long before they vacated their Kern Avenue storefront. Yeah, right, like I am going to pay $75 for used-and-abused 8" drives when the dealer hasn't even taken the time to sort out single/double sided let alone single/double density. Halted has a decent store of small parts. They are good for that, if like me you are not real good at organization and planning your component needs with enough lead time to deal with mail-order. And they keep their selection of connectors better organized than some other nearby outfits (Haltek in Mountain View just has no concept of how to do this -- well, actually I haven't been there in a while, and have been avoiding the connector aisles there for quite a while longer). Sometimes they have hard-to-find small parts. E.g. three or four years ago they had sourced some of those funky SCSI connectors like Sun used to use: the female D connectors with 50 pins arranged as three rows. Specifically these were the IDC flavor designed to crimp onto flat cable -- just the ticket if you were setting up a disk box for a Sun! Pricey at $11, but the thought of the amount of time I would spend soldering 50 little wires from a flat cable into 50 little cups was a good motivating factor. So I bought a few, and I gather other folks did too because one time I found myself waiting for them to get new stock in. > They were gone a couple of weeks later, I asked what became of them, > and they said that nobody wanted them, so they were scrapped! > > Have you ever seen a grown man cry? Yeah, I have seen them perpetrate other crocks, like the HP 2100 mini that they were selling for $100? $200? I can't remember. What I do remember is that someone had thoughtfully removed all the cards from the CPU, and with my naturally cynical outlook I expect that means they were easy pickings for gold recovery. To be fair there were some other peripherals there, but the hassle involved in moving the lot (all set in a 19" rack) and finding some place to put it was additional discouragement -- besides which I did not have as much experience with the other bits and so was not able to determine on the spot whether they had already been gutted (though it looked like some cabling had been removed as well). It's not entirely clear to me how the surplus-electronics business works here in Sillycon Valley, but one thing is obvious: the primary moneymaker is in the movement of large lots, probably from auctions and companies seeking to be rid of obsolete hardware, through the surplus business and I am guessing on the way to precious-metals recovery operations. If the surplus businesses see little bits that they think will work better being sold as onesies-and-twosies to people looking for upgrades/spares for their trailing-edge PCs (or to people looking for deals on test equipment), then those will come out to the showroom floor. And that can be a profitable niche too, so they try to price accordingly (i.e. cheap enough to make it look like a better deal than upgrading, but not so cheap as to lose much of the profit they could make -- gotta pay for that showroom floor somehow). This has a side effect, too: some of the surplus dealers have a bad attitude toward walk-ins. They know you're not likely a moneymaker, so they are apt to blow off simple questions like "got any more of these?" I got this from the guys at Sharon Industries in San Jose one day a few months ago -- I had wandered in to pick up one or two dinky Unisys PCs that I had seen there and thought would make nice little routers if configured with a small hard disk. The place was messier than usual -- maybe they were reorganizing or maybe they were trying to look like Mike Quinn's, I dunno; they certainly hadn't bothered to close the door or hang a sign up ("closed for remodeling"?). The display was still out, though, so I inquired. First he was asking me if I wanted them today, and when I said "yeah, I could take one or two today" (thinking I should leave the door open for him to say "I can't get to them right now, how about tomorrow?") he changed his tune to "oh, I sold 'em all to Halted." The thought that crossed my mind was: except the one you keep on the shelf for people to look at, right? I haven't been back -- maybe I am a pain in the hindquarters but I really prefer dealing with folks I think are capable of being honest. Speaking of pains in the hindquarters, there is another surplus dealer (RA Electronics) who just plain got out of the computer business, and the rumor is that this is because they got fed up with people coming back asking for support for whatever PC junk they had purchased there. So I'm sure that there are some pains worse than I out there -- I at least am working from the assumption that I am buying someone else's junk as-is. -Frank McConnell From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 15:35:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Message-ID: <199707142035.AA25347@world.std.com> ->Here's a real classic for ya. I'd have killed for a system like ->this one, but married life, no room, no time, blah blah blah . . . ->Anyone have a use for a ->Motorola 6800 Exorcisor ->System? This is a real I have the granmother to that the 6800D1 board. If it has a 6809 it's not as old as one with a 6800! Delopment systems are real collectable as they are fewer in numbers. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 15:35:35 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors Message-ID: <199707142035.AA25474@world.std.com> ->I'm pretty sure that these aren't host adapters; I think they're ->controllers in the traditional SCSI sense. (i.e. you sandwich ->them between the SCSI bus and a MFM or ESDI drive.) -> ->> One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If ->> anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would ->> really appreciate it. Tim, They may be host adaptors depending on the suffix they can be host or SASI (pre-scsi). I know the 1002-05/hdo is host. Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 16:45:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <199707142035.AA25474@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jul 14, 97 04:35:35 pm Message-ID: <9707142045.AA10850@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/e4717f6e/attachment.ksh From josh at netins.net Mon Jul 14 10:33:12 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: HHC UPDATE Message-ID: <199707142133.QAA00911@ins2.netins.net> >dastar@crl.com could you bump my order down to two? Thanks! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 17:31:43 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: "Jeff Kaneko"'s message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:44:55 -0600 Message-ID: <691959A6883@ifrsys.com> Frank McConnell Wrote: > > This has a side effect, too: some of the surplus dealers have a bad > attitude toward walk-ins. They know you're not likely a moneymaker, > so they are apt to blow off simple questions like "got any more of > these?" I got this from the guys at Sharon Industries in San Jose one > day a few months ago -- I had wandered in to pick up one or two dinky > Unisys PCs that I had seen there and thought would make nice little > routers if configured with a small hard disk. The place was messier > than usual -- maybe they were reorganizing or maybe they were trying > to look like Mike Quinn's, I dunno; they certainly hadn't bothered to > close the door or hang a sign up ("closed for remodeling"?). The > display was still out, though, so I inquired. First he was asking me > if I wanted them today, and when I said "yeah, I could take one or two > today" (thinking I should leave the door open for him to say "I can't > get to them right now, how about tomorrow?") he changed his tune to > "oh, I sold 'em all to Halted." The thought that crossed my mind was: > except the one you keep on the shelf for people to look at, right? I > haven't been back -- maybe I am a pain in the hindquarters but I > really prefer dealing with folks I think are capable of being honest. > Awww, man. This reminds me of a electronic junk dealer I used to go to in L.A.: Space Age Metals. Just the name makes me wanna cringe: barrels and barrels of aluminum turnings, next to bits of mini's, mainframes, and god-knows-what else. To show any interest at all in something was sheer death: Before you showed up it was SCRAP ($.01 - .05 /lb, max) but if they think you want it because it is some *really scarce* piece of hardware, allova sudden its "Well, that system sold for 'that much' at auction". Oy. I had a really hard time appearing to be *greatly* disinterested in stuff (as a forklifts were spearing and hefting S-100 and multibus cardcages in a rather unconcerned and offhanded way). What a life. This hobby can give you a headache, soemtimes. Jeff From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 18:32:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <691959A6883@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 04:31:43 pm Message-ID: <9707142232.AA12641@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1941 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/8553b6c3/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 18:45:25 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jul 14, 97 01:33:40 pm Message-ID: <9707142245.AA20191@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 926 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/be95189a/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 18:14:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <970714154716_1047778008@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-14 11:38:57 EDT, you write: > > actually, i've heard that novation applecat modem was desired by the > hacker/phone phreak crowd because of it's abilities. i think it could emulate > the dialing tones and do dtmf to make free phone calls. anyone have any > correct or detailed info about this? That's correct for the most part (the part about being desirable to hacks/phreaks). It could generate most any tone you programmed it to, plus it could generate MF (multi-frequency, used for inter-switch signalling). It also had a tone decoder option. Someone wrote an answering machine program that utilized SAM (Software Automated Mouth, a speech synthesizer available on the 6502 based computers of the time such as Atari, Commodore, Apple...) a micro-cassette recorder and the AppleCat II which had phono plugs on it. The call would come into the modem which would go off-hook, then SAM was used to play the outgoing message (piped through the modem) then the micro-cassette recorder was used to record the incoming message. Pretty neat. I have this program if anyone is interested. It has docs explaining the hookup and all. Of course you'll need an AppleCat II and an Apple (won't work with just the Apple Cat). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 14 18:30:24 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: HHC In-Reply-To: <199707141433_MC2-1AD7-A507@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Sorry for this short little blurb, but I have to agree completely with what was spoken about, below.... Thanks a ton, Sam, for negotiating all this for us. I know most, if not all, the others agree!! Thanks again, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by Sam: > >I figure total shipping costs will be $4 for a single unit, $5 for a > couple, etc. Not sure exactly. > I realize the shipping costs may not be what some people bargained for so > at this point I would ask that if you want to or need to back out, please > do it soon. > I am going to try and negotiate a lump sum for the total units that will > hopefully bring the cost per unit to $7. That's what I'm shooting for.< > > I don't know why anyone in their right mind would back out. You said > originally $10 per unit, and if the above figures work out, that would end > up $12 for a single unit delivered; not bad at all. In fact, for the folks > who asked for two, the above figures would product $19 delivered, CHEAPER > than you originally said. > > Still, you're left doing an awful lot of packaging, etc. You might at > least want to build in $1-$2 a unit "profit" just to compensate for all > your time and effort. On 400 units, that would at least get you a few nice > dinners! Please accept our thanks for all your work on this. > > Gil Parrish > 107765.1161@compuserve.com > > From s-ware at nwu.edu Mon Jul 14 18:37:09 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <9707142232.AA12641@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Dealing with the surplus-selling folk is, indeed, an art. I usually > go out of my way to make life easy for them and hope they'll give > me a break in return. Remember, these guys have to make a living > at what they do! Never expect anything for free - you gotta make > it worth their while! Visiting a "computer recycling center" on a scrounging run is something that I have been considering for quite a while. Other than the obvious problem of seeing literally tons of "good stuff" that there is no way that you can possibly rescue, what experiences have other collectors had with these places? I have seen newspaper articles about at least two such places here in Chicago, one of which claimed to process 200 tons of computers per month. A local TV show interviewed the operator of one computer recycling center who stated something along the lines of "It's all obsolete, we grind 'em for metal". Meanwhile, SPARCs were flying off of a truck in the background. Admittedly, most of the equipment at these places seemed to be standard PC-clone junk, but there have got to be some real gems out there, given the quantity of equipment that these places "process". So, what experiences have others had with computer scrapyards? How willing are the operators to let collectors in to look around? How much over "scrap" prices do you usually have to pay? And, most of all, should someone who can't even throw away an empty Apple II hulk dare to set foot inside one of these places? -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 19:14:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 14 Jul 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > It's not entirely clear to me how the surplus-electronics business > works here in Sillycon Valley, but one thing is obvious: the primary > moneymaker is in the movement of large lots, probably from auctions > and companies seeking to be rid of obsolete hardware, through the I generally find the surplus shops to be over-priced. This is definitely not true of Mike Quinn's, which is extremely reasonable (and realistic) with pricing. Never been to Haltek, but Halted Specialties and Wierd Stuff always are pricey on their stuff. I wonder if they realized that if they'd lower their prices they'd move that stuff a lot faster. Techies would come in and see a certain connector or part going for real cheap and think "Hmmmm, that's so cheap I'll get 2 or 3 extras in case I ever need one again". The part moves faster, they don't have stuff sitting around taking up floor space forever and they get some money back. Simple economics, the likes of which I don't think any of the nerds at those stores ever learned in high school. > Speaking of pains in the hindquarters, there is another surplus dealer > (RA Electronics) who just plain got out of the computer business, and > the rumor is that this is because they got fed up with people coming > back asking for support for whatever PC junk they had purchased there. I think the most obnoxious surplus store is Surplus Stuff in Milpitas. In 1993 when I went there a couple times they were selling used computer stuff at about 5% below retail! They also sold a lot of office furniture and equipment which was also pricey for being used. It amazes me that places like that stay in business. My theory is that they are a front for a drug or chip smuggling operation. Apologizes to all the non-Silicon Valley folk having to see all this localized blather. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 14 20:24:00 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: <2758@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. Ah yes, the 5161... It is/was a device for adding 6 more slots to a PC, PC/XT or Portable-PC (basically any of the 8-bit bus system). The 5161 itself was a PC/XT cabinet with an 8-slot passive backplane (OK, there was a 14.? MHz oscillator in there) and a standard PSU. There were a pair of cards (the 'extender' and the 'receiver') and a 62 pin cable that linked them. You put the extender into one slot of the 'host' system, the 'receiver' into the passive backplane, and linked them together. You could put I/O or memory cards (although not graphics cards AFAIK) into the remaining slots of the 5161. One problem with buying one of these second-hand is that the extender card (and often the cable) is almost always missing - it's been left in the host. And that card is difficult to find. Schematics, etc are in Volume one of the Options and Adapters TechRef. > Sam -tony From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:30 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180712.442f8f48@ricochet.net> At 11:45 PM 7/13/97 GMT, you wrote: >GPIB = General-Purpose Interface Bus. Aka IEEE-488, and very similar to >HPIB (= Hewlett-Packard Interface bus). HP were the company who designed it, >but it turns up on all sorts of machines. It's *the* bus used for disk drives, tape drives, printers, etc. for classic (and, to a lesser extent, spectrum) HP 3000 minicomputers. Trust me, I've got a basement full of 'em. (Bought my 3000 to use -- it's what I do for a living.) Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Commodore PET's used IEEE-488 for disk drives, as well as lab stuff. I'm pretty sure I've got an IEEE-488 interface for the VIC-20 around somewhere. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180708.442ff6ba@ricochet.net> At 02:11 PM 7/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the >drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's >what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga The c1702 is a very nice monitor. On the back is (IIRC) RGB connectors (or composite? or something like that) but on the front is standard video and audio in. As in, TV. If you hook up a VCR (with a tuner or cable connection), you've got yourself a very nice TV. A few years back, I set up a VCR and 1702 combo on one of those hospital tables for my dad and he spent his time there watching movies (actually, videos of a local teen theatre group -- ). It makes for a very compact setup. I would love to find one or two for <$10 and use them for exactly that. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:22 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180704.442f7e9c@ricochet.net> At 10:34 PM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Is the display looks like it was using same LED display, "hair thin" >segments under the plastic lens? That would fit with what I remember. If all the lights were lit up, it would look a lot like this: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Only a little closer, vertically. The lights really looked like little red hyphens. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:13 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180655.442fad8c@ricochet.net> At 09:24 PM 7/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I [...] >believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar I think the one I had was a Coleco or somebody like that, but I could be wrong. >around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE >and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through >it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or >two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were That would be fantastic! I don't know what they sell for now, but I can't imagine it would be bank breaking. Thanks! >on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic >full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? I know what you mean, but I never had one. I doubt they still make them; Everyone plays Joe Blow Football '97 on the Super Nintendo nowadays. (My girlfriend's brother does anyway.) I can't even say I've seen one recently. The Musee Mechanique at the Cliff House here in San Francisco probably has one (and other, even older games too!) If you're ever in the City and like that sort of thing, definitely stop in. They have modern games as well as old stuff. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 21:21:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? In-Reply-To: <2758@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. > > Ah yes, the 5161... > > It is/was a device for adding 6 more slots to a PC, PC/XT or Portable-PC > (basically any of the 8-bit bus system). The 5161 itself was a PC/XT cabinet > with an 8-slot passive backplane (OK, there was a 14.? MHz oscillator in > there) and a standard PSU. There were a pair of cards (the 'extender' and the > 'receiver') and a 62 pin cable that linked them. You put the extender into one > slot of the 'host' system, the 'receiver' into the passive backplane, and linked > them together. You could put I/O or memory cards (although not graphics cards > AFAIK) into the remaining slots of the 5161. Thanks for the information. I went back and picked it up, and was waiting to crack it open before I posted about it, but I guess you did all the work for me. > One problem with buying one of these second-hand is that the extender card (and > often the cable) is almost always missing - it's been left in the host. And that > card is difficult to find. Yep. Now I have something to live for. I will not leave this earth until I find the host card and cable. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Mon Jul 14 21:33:52 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707150233.AA14422@interlock.ans.net> > Meanwhile, SPARCs were flying off of a truck in the background. Yes, the government sold off many SPARCstation 370s and 470s a while back. > Admittedly, most of the equipment at these places seemed to be standard > PC-clone junk, but there have got to be some real gems out there, given > the quantity of equipment that these places "process". I wish I could have saved a Univac tape drive just a bit back. Stuff made by Univac is very rare, in that the company had what is known as a "scortched earth" policy - grind up all of the old machines, so there is no used market. I have seen many gems from DEC, mostly mid-1970s PDP-11s and early VAXen. I have yet to see any 12, 18, or 36 bit stuff from them, however. The old IBMs never show up - most coming out now are 3081 and 3090 machines (there is hope, as I heard a 360 was decommisioned in 1995!). I have also seen early SGI equipment, but not much early Sun (I do not know why). Never give up on junkyards. I have pulled some absolutely wild things out of some of them - things I never thought I would ever see, let alone purchase. Junkyards, unfortunately, are not the places to find classic micros. > So, what experiences have others had with computer scrapyards? How > willing are the operators to let collectors in to look around? Generally, not very. Most do not want to be hassled - some (including ones I deal with) are on an invitation only basis (sorry guys, I tried). > How much > over "scrap" prices do you usually have to pay Depends on the owner. For ancient radio/radar equipment, I go to a place in Pennsylvania. The owner and I get along, so much of it goes for exactly what he can get for it - generally $0.25 per pound, if there is little steel in it. Most other places, on the pther hand, will gouge - expect up to a dollar a pound, even if there is much steel (the markup is incredible - most junkyards pay 1 to 5 cents per pound). Prices I have paid: SPARCstation 470 power supply - $25 Extended VAXstation 2000 with disk - $20 RD54s in expansion bricks - $20/each Apollo 10000 (loaded, no drives) - $100 Sun 3,4/280 (loaded, 32 megs, no drives) - $75 PDP-11/23 (new) - $25 Various cards - $2 - $5 Cool IBM air cooled TCM from a mainframe (~900 pins!) - $2 And more... Keep in mind to look for disk drives when shopping in the scrap yards. Most government systems are missing all sorts of data storage devices. Also, look for any required keys (RS/6000s have UNIQUE keys, some Suns as well, unlike the ubiquitous DEC key). Also, always look for moisture! Water inside a transformer can ruin a fine machine. > And, most of all, should > someone who can't even throw away an empty Apple II hulk dare to set foot > inside one of these places? If you are not into minis and workstations, do not bother going. You will not find Commodores, Ataris, old Apples, etc. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 21:30:24 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: ActionMax Message-ID: Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it nearly complete, which is rare. Only missing the power supply (common 9V) and the VCR cable. This is a game that you hook to your VCR. It has a light gun and some sort of red either sensor or light (don't know yet). It came with a fighter combat VCR tape that you play in the VCR and I assume you use the gun to shoot at stuff on the screen. I'm sure someone else knows more about it than me. I haven't hooked it up yet. But I won't be able to do anything with it until I get the VCR cable. Anyone know how to rig one up? I also finally found a C16 but it has a broken key in the upper row :( These things apparently aren't too common in these parts as this is the first one I've ever seen. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 14 22:33:16 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam: I used to have one of those ActioMax games myself, ol' chap. I don't know if it was an ActionMax for sure, but it was one of the VCR shoot-em-up games. Anyway, near as I can remember, you can use just the standard VCR to TV cable (forget the techie name for it) to attach it to the TV. Did your come with a special box that attaches between the VCR and the TV. Not for sure, but I may remember needing that for the sensor to accurately work on the TV. If I remember correctly, you could even cheat the game somehow by getting a long way back from the TV and firing... it would sense a direct hit everytime. Again, not sure, but I do have some vague memories of. All in all, I know nothing, and really can't help you out much. Sorry, but I just wanted to feel important enough to contribute what little I do remember. I guess all I can say for sure is my family used to have one... REALLY! I PROMISE! NOT FIBBING!!! Take it easy, CORD p.s. I doubt the C=16 is for sale, huh? The check's in the mail for the Plus/4... again, PROMISE!! //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it > nearly complete, which is rare. Only missing the power supply (common > 9V) and the VCR cable. This is a game that you hook to your VCR. It has > a light gun and some sort of red either sensor or light (don't know > yet). It came with a fighter combat VCR tape that you play in the VCR > and I assume you use the gun to shoot at stuff on the screen. I'm sure > someone else knows more about it than me. I haven't hooked it up yet. > But I won't be able to do anything with it until I get the VCR cable. > Anyone know how to rig one up? > > I also finally found a C16 but it has a broken key in the upper row :( > These things apparently aren't too common in these parts as this is the > first one I've ever seen. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 22:41:36 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) Message-ID: <199707150341.AA22194@world.std.com> ->I have seen many gems from DEC, mostly mid-1970s PDP-11s and early VAXe ->I have yet to see any 12, 18, or 36 bit stuff from them, however. The o there is a reason... PDP-8s were the most prolific and the production nubers were in teh low tens of thousands and many still serve. The 18bit stuff were few to start with and hard as hell to expand so they faded away. the 36bit stuff were also few but interesting. Still many made it to the bone yard for lack of takers years back. Some of the less common machines like the PDP/LINK-12s and PDP-15s were only made in the thousands. PDP-11/23s are however like flies but, one complete with software (or better diags) and clean are scarce. Allison From cerebral at michianatoday.com Mon Jul 14 23:32:18 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJPlajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <04321854002777@michianatoday.com> At 09:35 PM 7/12/97 +0000, you wrote: >> >Yes, I was experimenting with lots of hds/models/brands which I got >some experience with them. If you have any questions about hds, >floppy drives, fire yours to me. :) > >Jason D. > Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 NEC 420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 months continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these drives, it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry an egg on it! :) From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 00:14:06 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJPlajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <05140666602920@michianatoday.com> At 02:11 PM 7/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked >up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the >drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's >what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga >500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the >drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on >the display. The C=128 does not need any kind of bootfloppy, it will start up in C=128 mode. if you type GO64, it reverts to a C=64 kernal. and if you want to run CPM, then you need a CPM boot disk, however it is not required to run the machine. this is what I liked about the 128, 3 mahcines in 1! :) for your monitor, the 128 has RF output accessable from the RCA jack, a 5 pin DIN video connector that provides composite, or seperated video plus sound. also there is a RGB 9 pin DSUB connector so you can use ANY CGA monitor for 80 col. for the 1702, you need a video cable(looks like you have this), and use the separated mode for sharper graphics. the buzzing you hear is because you have connected the video out RCA jack to the audio in. You should have 5 phono plugs on the end of the video cable, and a din plug on the other. just experament with all the plugs till it works. the video plug colors usually (but not always) YELLOW - sound RED Video chroma WHITE video Luminace BLACK SOUND GRAY Composite video each manufacturer used different color chemes, and this might be wrong for other cables than mine. also the 1702 has a front panel switch that has 3 positions: 1- monochrome this just makes everything green used for composite video 2- Composite video this is just the standard video in, you can hook your VCR to it for a nice sharp TV!! 3- seperated - this uses seperate lines to feed the video, and this has the best quality >I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even >if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do >I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? Nope. unless you want to run CPM >I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the >old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. shore will. > >The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power >supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It >looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & if it is potted, NOPE. some are unpotted and can be fixed. >New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your >Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some >documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, >so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is >why I switched to computers). > I have these manuals too and I must say that it leaves no tern left unstoned. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jul 14 21:29:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 113 References: <199707140702.AAA14619@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33CAE07B.236F@goldrush.com> > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Some Commie questions > My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked > up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor (good composite/Split Composite monitor, ususally JVC or Toshiba Guts) > and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the > drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's > what it's called) >through the front connection (This works for the Amiga 500 I also got yesterday). The jack on the front is RF output. > Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the drive like it's expecting to find something, > and I don't get anything on the display. When a 128 boots up it will attempt to 'boot' whatever disk is in the drive. A boot disk isn't necessary unless you want to use the CP/M mode of the 128. To boot the 128 into 64 mode hold down the Commodore ket as you turn it on, release and you will be rewarded with a 64 bluescreen. Otherwise it will boot into 128 mode, either 40 or 80 columns depending how you have the 'columns' key locked. > I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even > if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do > I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? Only for CP/M.. It's a good version too! > I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the > old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. Only in 80 column mode, the 128 has an RGBI port for that. If you have no color RGBI monitors you can always fasion a composite monochome cable by connecting to pin 7 (monochrome) and pin 1 or 2 (ground) to an RCA plug, that pin was designed for monochome composite output. The best (low cost) configuration is to have the 128 hooked up to the 1702, with the 40 column split/composite & audio plugged into the back and the monochrome 80 columns in the front. The quality of video using a proper (split composite) video cable in the back of the 1702 is excellent, I highly recommend it! > The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power > supply? No. Unless you like chipping away Epoxy resin. > I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It > looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & > New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your > Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some > documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, > so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is > why I switched to computers). > Then there is the Amiga 500. About a month ago, I'd picked up a copy of > "Bards Tale" for the Amiga, so I know it works. Problem is I don't have a > copy of the two floppies that came with the computer originally (also got > the manual for this at Powells). I think I've got the Kickstart 1.2 ROMs > (it has a 1.2 on the screen when asking for the Workbench disk). That is Kickstart 1.2 allright. Kickstart 1.3 or later would be better because they have hard drive autoboot coding and 2.0+ is more compatible with recent Amiga software. I have the 1.2 Workbench and Extras Disk around here somewhere... :) > Where can > I get the disks? I don't suppose it's like the Apple IIgs software that > you can now download. The hard part would be getting it on the right format of floppy... > The second Amiga question would be, is it possible to hook up Apple IIgs, > or Macintosh 3 1/2" external floppy drive with a Amiga? I somehow doubt > it, but... Yes and no... Yes, there are plans for hooking up Macintosh 3.5" floppy drives to the Amiga, BUT, they are used only for the Macintosh Emulators for the Amiga (BTW the Amiga 500 can run a Mac Plus Emulator at just about speed.) > Thanks, > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | >-- Recap, I have the Amiga Disks and also have a split-composite cable to hook the 128 to the 1701 (for the best 40 column output). -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jul 14 21:25:51 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <04321854002777@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199707150625.CAA19709@mail.cgocable.net> TJPlajer, Is this name you would preferred to called by?... :) Whew, not meant to be long! :-(!) Or consider as a mini tutor in shallow depth? Ok, that kind of heat you have is bad for any hard drives health so we are too! Number one: bearing will wear out rapidly by hotter lube rapid breakdown. There's lot of forces on those little steel balls at 3600rpm and up. The new Cheeth series are being spun 10,000 rpm. Whew. Number two: heads/platters stickum is more likely. Number three: no longer properly aligned with both data/sector ID...more problems by thermal expansion results in data loss/ read/write errors. Occsionally blow dust ST225's series out and related that uses similar design that allow airflow through the drive and board with air hose when bezel is off. Other way to clean dust in there is bit risky becasue of that reddish flex data cable for heads is diffcult to work /w and tears easily when board/3 screws are removed. Get them installed visibly with own bezel that has air grilles. The idea is you WANT the circuit board and that two motors per drive cooled and whole drive as well instead of allowing heat to migrate though the pack. Easier on bearing lives by mounting ST225 right side up this way in a pc tower or suitable desktop case so you can see the bezels. Perferably keep case covers closed up with two or three fans blowing out back. All hd's like to be handled and mounted gently to finger tight with screwdriver on very short 3 screws, any bumps or bangs does bad business to both bearings and dings the platters by heads, that's true. Opened them up and saw hard-to-see 4 pits in retangular pattern matching size of head corners caused by simple act of screwdriver slip or 1inch drop/jars. But note, smacking the stuck drives in rotation plane with bare hands to unstick is ok. Sometimes and not seen the problem because it is minor but in long run no. Ideally, low level formatted in its final position because mounting hardware does warps the drive, yes it's true! And do it again bi-yearly. Yes, a pain but best way to assure reliable data. This process is a must with any stepper type drives but those that uses voice coil does not require this fussy work, once formatted depending on type of drive technolgoy, it's good for ever. Those newer 3.5 ones does not cares how it is positioned but they love being cooler so make sure airflow is there across them. And they do not need the LLF in IDE/SCSI 3.5" and smaller drives because it's already embedded at factory. Dusting is limited to outside casing and logic board only because the air flow is not possible between them. Cooling them all around through length-wise if mounted with platter pack up. Reasons to be so reglious about cooling and such... Lot of stickums caused by many things: Drives was allowed to run hot too long that coating softens up that protects the magnetic material that assists the lube process between head and platters during rest/spin up/down. Gets softer and more smoother that it gets simply stuck as heads gets worn smoother. Happens to many hds that was power cycled too often like 5 to 6 times a day even once day if you want hds to really last then I have few tips: Keep them happy by cooling them, handling gently/screws tightened properly and asolutely no too long screws ever, those regular pc screw is too long! Lots of hds were ruined by this and I have lots of hds to show this damges. And keep power cycles to a minium when possible. Remember the infamous stuck drives in Mac SE and mac classics? I think Mac blamed on Quantum and pulled at it for freebie recall for lube problem where I see this way: overheating and running upside down, lots of power cycles. Side note: those ST225's uses aluminum platters physically coated with mixture of magetic iron rust powder (opaqe orange colored) and epoxy which gives greenish tinge. Then spun them to even up the mixture and polished then lubing/protective coatings are applied. Then they're graded for quality based on defects and density. No longer (?) done now, all drives uses spluttered or plated platters for its greater density and harder surface. They looked transpantent (sp?) and reddish, shades of grey or clear. IBM just got past the 1gb per inch sq recently. Jason D. > > > Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 NEC > 420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 months > continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these drives, > it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they > continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry an egg > on it! :) > From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 15 01:51:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > games. Anyway, near as I can remember, you can use just the standard VCR > to TV cable (forget the techie name for it) to attach it to the TV. Did > your come with a special box that attaches between the VCR and the TV. Not The jack on the unit is a 1/8" phono jack. I assumed there was probably some module that connected between it and the VCR. I'm assuming this requires some special cable. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 02:38:21 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <07382120103214@michianatoday.com> Opps, My name is TJ Plajer, and recently reinstalled the mailer and forgot to add a space for some reason..... I did follow your tips, and the drives are in a XT case and there are no bezels for the drives. there is good air flow, just they seem to run this hot. I never ran these drives before and have no idea how hot they should be. as for power cycling, they get NONE. this system has been running for 2 months continous, without any powerdowns since they were installed, so for 2 months now, the thermal stability has (hopefully) stayed the same. thanx From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 15 09:05:06 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706158689.AA868982856@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least > could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no > manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen > during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number: "09" and I'm > assuming that this is a hardware failure code. As promised, I have hunted through my various IBM System/23 (Datamaster) manuals, and found the meanings of the POD (Power-on Diagnostics) error codes. Here is a summary: FF} 00} CPU Failure (!) 01} 02 Failure of first ROS module (Read Only Storage module, i.e. ROM chip) 03 Reserved. If this is highlighted, panic. 04 Failure in bottom 16k of storage, or of storage controller 05 CRT (presumably actually monitor) or DMA failure 06} CRT interface 07} 08 Page registers 09-} ROS failure. There follows a little diagram to tell you which chip 19 } to replace. Yes, the diagram in the manual is made of text, too. ** TOP VIEW OF PLANAR SEEN FROM THE REAR ** _______________________________________________ | ====== ====== <-- NOT FOUND ON | | | 10 | | 11 | <-- SOME EARLY | | =3=40= =3=60= <-- MACHINES | | | | ====== ====== | | | 19 | | 0D | | | =7=60= =1=60= | | *********************** | | =PATCH= ====== * PHYSICAL LOCATION * | | | 18 | | 0C | * OF ROS MODULES * | | =7=40== =1=40= * FOR EACH ERROR CODE * | | *********************** | | ====== ====== | | | 17 | | 0B | -KEY- | | =6=60= =0=60= ====== | | | XX | | | ====== ====== =Y=ZZ= | | | 16 | | 0A | XX=POD ERROR CODE | | =6=40= =0=40= Y=ROS PAGE VALUE | | ZZ=HIGH ORDER BYTE OF | | ====== ====== FIRST ADDRESS IN | | | 15 | | 09 | ROS MODULE. | | =5=60= =0=20= | | ---(CABLE)-------------- | | ====== ====== | ====== | | | | 14 | | 02 | | | 09 | CO-PLANAR | | | =5=40= =0=00= | =0=20= BOARD. | | | | (FOUND ON | | | ====== | ====== SOME EARLY | | | | 13 | | | 10 | MACHINES.) | | | =4=60= | =3=40= | | | | | | | ====== | ====== | | | | 12 | | | 11 | | | | =4=40= | =3=60= | | | ------------------------ | ----------------------------------------------- 1A-} ROS failure on feature card 26 } 27 ROS failure on 2nd printer card 28} ROS failure on feature card 29} 2A-} RAM failure. Table (which I shan't include) of how codes 30 } relate to different sizes of machine. 31 RAM page access failure 32 DMA page register failure 33 Interrupt controller failure 34 Timer interrupt failure 35 Keyboard error. If flashing, keyboard controller. If not flashing, you pressed a key at the wrong moment :-) 36 Printer failure 37 Printer not switched on 38 Diskette attachment failure 39 24 volt rail not reading 24 volts 3A-} belong to add-ons not to the system. I didn't bring the FE } relevant manual pages. General rules for interpretation: Flashing inverse video = fatal error. Non-flashing inverse video = error. Press the Error-reset key and let the machine finish booting. Then run the diagnostics dikette, I suppose. To summarise, it appears you have a dud ROM chip. I imagine the solution is to copy a ROM chip from another Datamaster. If necessary, I can arrange to copy mine, but I don't know off-hand what sort of chips they are. I would also suggest that, unless you too are in England, logistics of getting the chip to you might be hard... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Das Feuer brennt, das Feuer nennt die Luft sein Schwesterelement - und frisst sie doch (samt dem Ozon)! Das ist die Liebe, lieber Sohn. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 06:46:05 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707150341.AA22194@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151146.AA02532@interlock.ans.net> > there is a reason... PDP-8s were the most prolific and the production > nubers were in teh low tens of thousands and many still serve. I suppose the time to grab them was the early 1980s (that is when I grabbed my two machines, but not from scrapyards). > The 18bit > stuff were few to start with and hard as hell to expand so they faded > away. I still lust for a PDP-15 (I saw one at the Smithsonian Institution, as some sort of fingerprint anaylzer display. I do not think it is functional). I know one will show up some time, either in a junkyard, barn, basement, etc. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rector at christcom.net Tue Jul 15 09:52:28 1997 From: rector at christcom.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games References: <199707120243.VAA18585@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <33CB8EAB.3293@christcom.net> thedm wrote: > > Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. ----------------------- I remember this as being the first one to make it big. I think the other manufacturers are knock-offs (coleco, RS, etc.). There were actually two 'versions' made. The original one is white and is called 'Mattel Electronic Football'. The name was changed later to 'Mattel Electronic Football I' because Mattel added a second game 'Mattel Electronic Football II'. Football II has a green case and has 2 players on offense, a QB and a WR. It allows you to pass. I have both of these. I also have 'Mattel Electronic Basketball II' (orange color). (Again an improvement over BBI in that you have a partner and can do 3pt shots). I also remember seeing advertisements for other Mattel games such as hockey, soccer, and a type of car racing game. I might still have the flyer in the original boxes. Dan From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jul 15 08:53:58 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <9707142232.AA12641@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <691959A6883@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 04:31:43 pm Message-ID: <9DE246204CC@ifrsys.com> Tim Shoppa Wrote: > > I've never been to Space Age Metals, but from your description it > sounds just like Apex (in the San Fernando Valley...) My problem > with Apex is that the good stuff was always buried under tons > (literally) of scrap metal. > I've been there! The only place in town where you can get NIXIE tubes at bargain prices (truly a must-have for the classic computing conneseur)! But that place can break your heart too. The stuff inside their warehouse is mostly the test equipment, powersupplies, components and stuff like that. On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). Jeff From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 08:34:24 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707151334.AA13756@world.std.com> ->X-Sender: cerebral@michianatoday.com ->Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 ->420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 mo ->continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these dri ->it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they ->continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry a First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are faster!) and their reliability is at best ok. FYI: st225s live far longer if they are cooled. If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough air past them, seriously! Also if they are in the smae box as all the other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 08:47:26 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? Message-ID: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. Allison From groberts at mitre.org Tue Jul 15 08:43:43 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Stan Veit's book In-Reply-To: <33C5F6AD.50CE@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970715094343.007f9e70@mail90> nice review enrico. in case any of you missed this the subject is Stan Veit's book on the History of Peronal Computers (see http://www.pc-history.org/) i ordered my copy from Amazon books, see: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1566640237/6862-4279715-208683 (placed the order Friday morning; the book was in my mailbox yesterday). last night i got about 1/3 of the way through this 300 page book. lots of good history there that would be of interest to many in this group, including discussion of some of the more obscure contenders (e.g. "Video Brain"). thanks for the pointer. - glenn At 09:02 AM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >If you like the History of Personal Computers you might like to read my >review of the Stan Veit book I just received from him. > >You will find it at: > > > >I know that the book has been published in 1993 but some of you (like >me) might not have been aware of it till now. Stan has seen all the >personal computer revolution from the inside as he opened the second >computer store in the USA and the first on the East Coast (New York). >Please forgive my spelling mistakes.... > >Thanks > >enrico >-- >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: > > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 15 08:58:27 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: IEEE 488 Message-ID: <199707150958_MC2-1AD8-8A35@compuserve.com> Message from: Uncle Roger >Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Commodore PET's used IEEE-488 for disk drives, as well as lab stuff. I'm pretty sure I've got an IEEE-488 interface for the VIC-20 around somewhere. < Yep. Commodore used it on the full PET/CBM line for disk drives, printers, and whatever else you wanted to attach. That was one reason PETs were fairly popular in labs in those days-- easy to plug in test equipment. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 15 08:58:30 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: C16 Message-ID: <199707150958_MC2-1AD8-8A37@compuserve.com> Message text written by Sam: >I also finally found a C16 but it has a broken key in the upper row :( These things apparently aren't too common in these parts as this is the first one I've ever seen.< If the unit powers up, you're ahead of the game. The video chip, called the TED, is weak in those units, and probably 1 our of every two you'll find has a bad TED chip. By the way, the same TED is in the Plus/4, so if need by the chip can be swapped from unit to the other. All those C16s with bad TED chips means there are more than a few non-working units out there that could be a part donor for your keyboard. If fact, if you can't search around and find, drop me a note and I'm sure I can. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 15 08:58:34 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <199707150958_MC2-1AD8-8A39@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >The C=128 does not need any kind of bootfloppy, it will start up in C=128 mode. if you type GO64, it reverts to a C=64 kernal.< You can also hold down the Commodore key (looks like "C=" in the lower lefthand corner) while you turn it on, and it will come up in 64 mode. > the 128 has RF output accessable from the RCA jack, a 5 pin DIN video connector that provides composite, or seperated video plus sound.< The 128 has an 8-pin DIN connector, as do the later 64s. A 5-pin cable will work, but for the best possible separated composite picture, an 8-pin cable will do better. >also there is a RGB 9 pin DSUB connector so you can use ANY CGA monitor for 80 col. for the 1702, you need a video cable(looks like you have this), and use the separated mode for sharper graphics.< The 1702 is composite only. Later Commodore monitors, like the 1902, were composite/RGB switchable. However, pin 7 of the 9-pin 128 video connector puts out a monochrome composite signal, which (with your own hacked cable) allows you to view the 128's 80-column signal (normally viewable only with an RGB monitor) on a composite monitor like the 1702. >Nope. unless you want to run CPM< Or GEOS, which is kinda like Windows. Some of the more advanced Commodore software (like the fax program) runs under GEOS. >>The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. << >if it is potted, NOPE. some are unpotted and can be fixed.< The 64 power supply isn't going to do him much good on a 128; the power supplies have different connectors, and the 64 supplies aren't as strong as the 128 supplies. As to potted supplies, I have fixed one or two; some have fuses up close to the top of the gunk, and it is possible to scrape away enough of the gunk on each end to bypass the fuse if that is the problem. But as to whether it is worth the effort, I'd agree-- usually it isn't. I'm not sure what they pot it with, but starships could use it for deflector shields! Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 08:59:24 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151359.AA09485@interlock.ans.net> > ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer > ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out > ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). > > Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home > wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally > water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. I would remove anything high-voltage (front end of the power supply) and BAKE them for quite some time (a day is nice). Water has a way of getting into windings and comprimising the insulation (remember, in a transformer the insulation is _thin_ - often paper and painted on varnish). William Donzelli william@ans.net From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jul 15 09:12:16 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707150233.AA14422@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I have seen many gems from DEC, mostly mid-1970s PDP-11s and early VAXen. > I have yet to see any 12, 18, or 36 bit stuff from them, however. The old > IBMs never show up - most coming out now are 3081 and 3090 machines > (there is hope, as I heard a 360 was decommisioned in 1995!). I have also > seen early SGI equipment, but not much early Sun (I do not know why). In my experience, Sun offers much more generous trade-in allowances than SGI (at least in the educational market). For this reason, I'd imagine that a large percentage of old Sun systems are sent back to California for scrapping or dismantled in a manner that ensures that they will not be traded in again. OTOH, I know of an SGI 4D/380 VGX that recently met the scrappers (alas, before I could attempt a rescue) because of red tape and the similarity of resale, scrap, and trade-in values. > If you are not into minis and workstations, do not bother going. You will > not find Commodores, Ataris, old Apples, etc. That's what I was expecting. Workstations are (obviously) much harder to find than micros in the thrifts and swap meets around here, and are therefore my primary junkyard scrounging goal. My single PDP-11 does, however, look kind of lonely... Thanks for the great information! I might give a few of these places a call to see what their policies are. I'm expecting to be disappointed, but you never know. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 09:16:35 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:56 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net> > > I have also > > seen early SGI equipment, but not much early Sun (I do not know why). > > In my experience, Sun offers much more generous trade-in allowances than > SGI (at least in the educational market). For this reason, I'd imagine > that a large percentage of old Sun systems are sent back to California for > scrapping or dismantled in a manner that ensures that they will not be > traded in again. OTOH, I know of an SGI 4D/380 VGX that recently met the > scrappers (alas, before I could attempt a rescue) because of red tape and > the similarity of resale, scrap, and trade-in values. By older Sun, I mean Sun-2. The stuff is still around, but not in huge gobs like the Sun-3s. I would have expected SGI Iris (pre-4D, that is) to be rare, as the company was still very small then. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Tue Jul 15 09:28:56 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net>; from William Donzelli on Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 10:16:35AM -0400 References: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <19970715092856.31262@beret.cs.utexas.edu> I remember back in '97 when William Donzelli wrote: > By older Sun, I mean Sun-2. The stuff is still around, but not in huge > gobs like the Sun-3s. I would have expected SGI Iris (pre-4D, that is) to > be rare, as the company was still very small then. Do you know of a good supplier for Sun-3 parts? I have most (chassis, SMD/SCSI/tape, memory) from a Sun 3/280 which I'd really like to get running. All I need is a power supply and the actual CPU. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 09:44:32 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <19970715092856.31262@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <199707151444.AB12753@interlock.ans.net> > Do you know of a good supplier for Sun-3 parts? I have most (chassis, > SMD/SCSI/tape, memory) from a Sun 3/280 which I'd really like to get > running. All I need is a power supply and the actual CPU. Where did the supply go? It should be built into the chassis. It seems that the government has been dumping quit a few Sun-3/280s in 6 foot racks (with two 14" disks and a 1/2" tape). I can keep a look out for one for parts. At least some were upgraded to 4/280s - you will have to check the CPU if you find one. As far as SPARCs go, it is slow. The annoying thing about the 4/2xx CPUs is they require a goofy, very high res Sun specific mono screen. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Tue Jul 15 09:50:23 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707151444.AB12753@interlock.ans.net>; from William Donzelli on Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 10:44:32AM -0400 References: <19970715092856.31262@beret.cs.utexas.edu> <199707151444.AB12753@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <19970715095023.23646@beret.cs.utexas.edu> I remember back in '97 when William Donzelli wrote: > > Do you know of a good supplier for Sun-3 parts? I have most (chassis, > > SMD/SCSI/tape, memory) from a Sun 3/280 which I'd really like to get > > running. All I need is a power supply and the actual CPU. > > Where did the supply go? It should be built into the chassis. I found this one on a loading dock--someone has scrapped it partially. One of the 8M memory board I have is missing 4 large chips.. I presume these had something to do with the ECC.. I can't remember the part off the top of my head, but I do have another baord like it. I HATE WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT! I can't imagine someone actually could use those chips (but they had a pretty gold top and looked important I imagine..) (takes deep breath) m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 09:52:53 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? Message-ID: <199707151452.AA22465@world.std.com> <> wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally <> water is not that damaging. Just don't power them wet. < Message-ID: <199707151502.AA14063@interlock.ans.net> > But then again I've cleaned boards in the dishwasher! Works great too. A friend of mine threw his entire Atari 800 in the dishwasher, after spilling orange juice in it. It worked. > A good temp to bake at is just under 200f, it's slow but works and most > plastics and semis are ok at this temp! Do monitor it though. A simple bulb in a garbage can works well. As long as the baked thing is just about too hot to touch, all is well. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 10:07:38 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <19970715095023.23646@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <199707151507.AA14432@interlock.ans.net> > I found this one on a loading dock--someone has scrapped it partially. @#$@#%! > One of the 8M memory board I have is missing 4 large chips.. I presume > these had something to do with the ECC.. I can't remember the part off > the top of my head, but I do have another baord like it. Yes, and I do not think they are Sun specific - but do not quote me on that. I suppose one could cheat and force what would have been the error lines inactive on the board. They will still be bastards to find. > I HATE WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT! I can't imagine someone actually could > use those chips (but they had a pretty gold top and looked important > I imagine..) Easy money to a scrapper. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at msn.com Tue Jul 15 11:41:04 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Altair Construction Manual Message-ID: Glenn: Thanks for the encouragement. It seems that at one time, one of us did try to contact TA to no avail. Should we try again?? I'd need to get the contact info from the gent that tried it the first time, and I'll give it a second go-around. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ---------- From: Glenn Roberts Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 10:23 AM To: Richard A. Cini, Jr. Cc: bcw@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Altair Construction Manual outstanding! i continue to applaud your efforts. i would think that all we need to proceed is a trail of evidence showing a "reasonable effort" to receive permission in this area. this can be a precedent-setting effort for publication of all kinds of useful historical information that might otherwise be lost forever. thanks again for blazing the trail! - glenn At 02:04 AM 7/13/97 UT, you wrote: >To all Altair fans... > > Well, my more-than-kind individual has provided me with the first of three >installments of the original Altair construction manual. He scanned all 102 >pages of the doc and made it into a PDF document -- almost 7mb in size. He is >also providing me with manuals for "the 88-4K, 88-ACR, and other stuff." I'm >not too familiar with all of the available options since the Altair was really >before my time, but it looks like the 4k memory board and other stuff. > > I'm not going to U/L the docs yet, first for size reasons, and second, until >we determine if we should try to contact Triumph-Adler... > >On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Jim Willing wrote: >>>So, it can be assumed that TA [Triumph-Adler of Germany] now >>owns all of >the rights to things MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them >>on occasion on >related matters and have gotten no response of any >>kind to date. > >Anybody have any thoughts? >------------------------ >Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCPS Windows 95/Networking > > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jul 15 11:46:13 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: DEC machine? Message-ID: <33CBA955.77B5@xlisper.mv.com> Does anyone know what the following Digital part numbers refer to? PC500 RCD31 The PC500 seems to be a display with a 5.25 inch floppy drive and some electronics. It is mounted on top of the RCD31 unit which is in a pizza box style case. Is this some sort of PC clone or maybe a DecMate? -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 15 08:59:31 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715095931.006c7150@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 02:30 AM 7/15/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it >nearly complete, which is rare. Only missing the power supply (common >9V) and the VCR cable. This is a game that you hook to your VCR. It has >a light gun and some sort of red either sensor or light (don't know >yet). It came with a fighter combat VCR tape that you play in the VCR >and I assume you use the gun to shoot at stuff on the screen. I'm sure >someone else knows more about it than me. I haven't hooked it up yet. >But I won't be able to do anything with it until I get the VCR cable. >Anyone know how to rig one up? I had one a long time ago, and I don't remember having to hook a cable to the VCR. I think the red thingy acts as both a score light and a sensor. It should have a suction cup and IIRC just stick it to the top right corner of the TV screen. The fighter pilot tape was the pack-in with the system. There was only about 6 tapes total made. I see these things quite often though, in fact I saw one several days ago. I believe it came out in '86. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 07:59:38 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151334.AA13756@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151659.MAA08957@mail.cgocable.net> Allison, I gently disagree with this assertion that ST251 series is good than ST225 series. I got too many dead ST251 series compared to ST225's due to weaker structral design, pushed design by driving steppers too hard byond 40ms average and not as rugged as ST225's. I noticed the relationship between higher stepping rate and terrible high failure rate on many hard drives such as ST251's, Miniscribes and early 40meg western digital drives compared to very slow stepping rate on most drives did last long time byond its goal set by designers. If one wants faster seeking time, go voice coil! I am dreaming wishing that ST251 drive was fitted with voice coil instead of stepper and better motor design...sigh. Those ST225, ST250 are really best consumer's drives and ST251 series might be a mistake at cutting corners well as ST277, ST296 are same design. I wished that segate designed ST251 case more rugged and used internal spindle motor with bearings on outside and one screw on top of cover to stablize the motor from top. Then this ST251's would be possible to be expanded to 100 or 120 size reliably. Whole problem was that design of this ST251 spindle motor is ill-designed to begin with in my opinion: Trying to fit all the coils and one bearing INSIDE that spindle results in weak axle that gets bent easily due to this design and the bearings failure rate on this one is high too. Recently I pulled this ST225 out of dumpter and fixed up the XT with this hd and LLF'ed it. Gave whole thing to poor guy to use vax at college. Still works. I tore down all kinds of drives from old and 3 years old types for post-failure analysis which gave pretty good info for me. > ->X-Sender: cerebral@michianatoday.com Snip! > First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are Snip! Tales of positive things about cooling... > If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough > air past them, seriously! Actually, all drives old and new benefits from cooling and boards likes the flowing cooling air. > Also if they are in the smae box as all the > other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their > life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air > conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. We have no choice as many does not have AC so they ran in warm air but if you are careful, enough fans to make hurriance out of it and put a fan or two on monitor as well. My 17" needs two otherwise the HOT transistor will pop again. ARRGgghhh. > Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 15 12:07:09 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707151707.MAA02235@challenge.sunflower.com> IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 7:59 AM > > Allison, > > I gently disagree with this assertion that ST251 series is good than > ST225 series. I got too many dead ST251 series compared to ST225's > due to weaker structral design, pushed design by driving steppers too > hard byond 40ms average and not as rugged as ST225's. > I noticed the relationship between higher stepping rate and > terrible high failure rate on many hard drives such as ST251's, > Miniscribes and early 40meg western digital drives compared to > very slow stepping rate on most drives did last long time byond its > goal set by designers. If one wants faster seeking time, go voice > coil! I am dreaming wishing that ST251 drive was fitted with voice > coil instead of stepper and better motor design...sigh. > > Those ST225, ST250 are really best consumer's drives and ST251 series > might be a mistake at cutting corners well as ST277, ST296 are same > design. > > I wished that segate designed ST251 case > more rugged and used internal spindle motor with bearings on outside > and one screw on top of cover to stablize the motor from top. Then > this ST251's would be possible to be expanded to 100 or 120 size > reliably. Whole problem was that design of this ST251 spindle motor > is ill-designed to begin with in my opinion: Trying to fit all the > coils and one bearing INSIDE that spindle results in weak axle that > gets bent easily due to this design and the bearings failure rate on > this one is high too. > > Recently I pulled this ST225 out of dumpter and fixed > up the XT with this hd and LLF'ed it. Gave whole thing to poor guy > to use vax at college. Still works. > > I tore down all kinds of drives from old and 3 years old types for > post-failure analysis which gave pretty good info for me. > > > ->X-Sender: cerebral@michianatoday.com > Snip! > > > First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are > Snip! Tales of positive things about cooling... > > If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough > > air past them, seriously! > Actually, all drives old and new benefits from cooling and boards > likes the flowing cooling air. > > > Also if they are in the smae box as all the > > other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their > > life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air > > conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. > We have no choice as many does not have AC so they ran in warm air > but if you are careful, enough fans to make hurriance out of it and > put a fan or two on monitor as well. My 17" needs two otherwise the > HOT transistor will pop again. ARRGgghhh. > > > Allison > From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jul 15 12:14:10 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: DEC machine? Message-ID: <01IL9I01D102BCB22Y@cc.usu.edu> > The PC500 seems to be a display with a 5.25 inch floppy drive and some > electronics. It is mounted on top of the RCD31 unit which is in a pizza > box style case. Is this some sort of PC clone or maybe a DecMate? No, I suspect it's a VAXmate. The VAXmate is a 286 PC clone with some special DECness (Ethernet, included software to do DECnet). Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu PS: Rumor has it that the VAXstation 2000 folks were really pissed that the name 'VAXmate' was already taken... From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 08:18:16 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <07382120103214@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199707151718.NAA11117@mail.cgocable.net> Hi TJ Plajer! > Opps, My name is TJ Plajer, and recently reinstalled the mailer and forgot > to add a space for some reason..... hahah... better learn than nothing! :) > > I did follow your tips, and the drives are in a XT case and there are no > bezels for the drives. You are supposed to cover any empty drive space with anything like cardboard but do not block the area of hds... Here's your cooling problem...XT case is poorly made because this power supply fan is simply too small try first: under the width of drive cage, seal the grille holes on metal sheet and on case cover on right side, seal that underside holes, all with a good tape. On that XT PSU, how much airflow blowing out back, weak? Look for a replacement fan that does better than this el cheapo fans. Try AT type case if you can, they has bigger, powerful fan. XT case design especially in cooling department is bit goofy, blamed by IBM for this ill. :) > there is good air flow, just they seem to run this > hot. More power to air flow is needed, see the tips.. > I never ran these drives before and have no idea how hot they should > be. as for power cycling, they get NONE. this system has been running for 2 > months continous, without any powerdowns since they were installed, so for 2 > months now, the thermal stability has (hopefully) stayed the same. > thanx Hey, no problem! Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 08:34:13 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151707.MAA02235@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199707151734.NAA12960@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:07:09 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Bill Girnius" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > X-To: > IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over > 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up > selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. Had to ask! Are you kidding? :) None 5.25" hds came out til after '82 when lot of hds bigger than 8" was king. !!!! 20 yr old ST4096? Impossible! More like 8 or 9 years. Seagate started on this design after 1986. Is this one of yours that only have one board on bottom with only platter cover painted black? That is last generation of this design which is finally reliable. Earlier ones had teething problem of all kinds, no kidding. All the way back to early first linear voice coil of ST4025 between 1985 through '88. I pick them up all the time are almost always dead due to bearing failures. These drives are best left running horizontal right side up. Jason D. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jul 15 12:36:04 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: DEC machine? References: <01IL9I01D102BCB22Y@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33CBB504.1EE5@xlisper.mv.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > > > The PC500 seems to be a display with a 5.25 inch floppy drive and some > > electronics. It is mounted on top of the RCD31 unit which is in a pizza > > box style case. Is this some sort of PC clone or maybe a DecMate? > > No, I suspect it's a VAXmate. The VAXmate is a 286 PC clone with some > special DECness (Ethernet, included software to do DECnet). > Hmm... That doesn't sound very interesting. I guess I'll just leave it at the dump. Thanks for the info. David -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 15 12:39:09 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707151735.MAA03237@challenge.sunflower.com> Typo was intended to be 10, but it was still undauntingly reliable. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:34 AM > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:07:09 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > From: "Bill Girnius" > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > > X-To: > > > IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over > > 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up > > selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. > > Had to ask! Are you kidding? :) None 5.25" hds came out til after > '82 when lot of hds bigger than 8" was king. !!!! 20 yr old > ST4096? Impossible! More like 8 or 9 years. > > Seagate started on this design after 1986. Is this one of yours > that only have one board on bottom with only platter cover painted > black? That is last generation of this design which is finally > reliable. Earlier ones had teething problem of all kinds, no > kidding. All the way back to early first linear voice coil of ST4025 > between 1985 through '88. I pick them up all the time are almost > always dead due to bearing failures. These drives are best left > running horizontal right side up. > > Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 15 12:35:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715095931.006c7150@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, James Carter wrote: > >Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it > > I had one a long time ago, and I don't remember having to hook a cable to > the VCR. I think the red thingy acts as both a score light and a sensor. It > should have a suction cup and IIRC just stick it to the top right corner of > the TV screen. Yep, it has a suction cup, so now I know where to put that. Each jack has a little icon above it showing what goes into that jack. There is a gun icon, a flasher/sensor icon, a headphone icon and a little icon that looks like a VCR. I would think it gets perhaps some special synchronization information recorded on the tape that tells the unit when you actually made a hit. Otherwise I can't think of how the unit actually knows you hit anything. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 15 14:05:57 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151707.MAA02235@challenge.sunflower.com> from "Bill Girnius" at Jul 15, 97 12:07:09 pm Message-ID: <9707151805.AA14520@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970715/2ef88534/attachment.ksh From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jul 15 13:53:55 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> Message-ID: Allison wrote: > > ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer > ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out > ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). > > Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home > wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally > water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. > > Allison > > Yeah, but when those chip leads get corroded and all the aluminum parts have this white, fluffy oxide all over them, and when you see trails of oxide where the foil pattern *USED* to be, it's time to hang it up . . . Jeff From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 09:41:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: References: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151840.OAA20617@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:53:55 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Allison wrote: > > > > ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer > > ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out > > ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). Waaaah! No! :( > > Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home > > wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally > > water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. > > > > Allison > Yeah, but when those chip leads get corroded and all the aluminum > parts have this white, fluffy oxide all over them, and when you > see trails of oxide where the foil pattern *USED* to be, it's time to > hang it up . . . > > Jeff About this, do not forget about the leaking backup batteries for static memory settings...waaaah! Green jiggles where traces used to be... Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 13:45:40 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: DEC machine? Message-ID: <199707151845.AA16137@world.std.com> >>>jpero... Sorry if this is long but it is important to users of classic machines. ;) Hi all. Due to a major computer disaster here at work I haven't been reading list mail and probably won't for a few more days. So, I'm not ignoring anyone and if anything is really important e-mail me directly (bill@booster.u.washington.edu). And, if anyone can tell me why 11 NT servers in a single domain would crash one at a time every 4 minutes and 20 seconds until the whole network is gone - please let me know ;). Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 16:19:11 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: <2827@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > (MS-DOS machines) since about 1983 and I have yet to see one. Another > thing I've been looking for without success is an IBM Cassette recorder > for the IBM PC cassette interface. I've heard they really do exist. Now that's something I've never seen. One interesting point is that the pinout of the cassette socket on the PC (although not on the PC-jr) is the same as that on a Tandy Model 1/3/4/Coco/etc It is rumoured that IBM intended you to go down to the local Radio Shack and buy one of their recorders + cable. -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 16:21:23 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: <2828@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > Haven't found a IBM cassette recorder either but I did pick up an IBM > joystick (had IBM logo on it and the word "Joystick") plus it had a funky > square connector which looked like it goes to the PCjr. I've dug out the PC-jr Techref, and there's some info in it on the joystick. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 16:32:49 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: PC-jr PSU (again!) Message-ID: <2830@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> I dug out the PC-jr Techref (in order to look up details on the joystick), and I also looked at the PSU diagrams (page B-23 in my edition). We had a thread on this about a month ago, mainly about the external transformer unit which I don't have. Now, the input connector is a 3-pin thing. The centre pin is connected to shield ground, and then via L3 and L4 on the system board to logic ground. It's thus a DC connection to the system ground. The outside 2 pins go through a filter to the AC terminals of a bridge rectifier (CR7 - CR10) and the output of this goes (via the power switch) to a 1500uF 25V capacitor (C13). The -ve side of this capacitor is also connected to system ground. Thus, IMHO it makes no sense at all for the transformer to be centre-tapped with the tap going to pin 2 on the connector. If it was, the winding would be paritially shorted out by the diodes in the bridge rectifier, which would cause a lot of damage. Also, since C13 is only rated at 25V, the maximum input rms voltage is 25/sqrt(2) volts, which is a lot less than 34V. I therefore still believe that it's a plain 17V transformer between the 2 outer pins on the connector. Incidentally, the +12V output comes from a standard linear regulator, the +5V output from a switching regulator (Z2 is the control IC, Q2 the chopper, and L1 the switching inductor). The -12V output is supplied by a secondary winding on L1, which is then rectifier and smoothed. It's always possible that IBM used several versions of the PSU card, but the schematic in my Techref seems to agree with the one in my machine. -tony From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 15 15:49:48 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: antique computer blowout (fwd) Message-ID: Somebody in the Berkeley area might want to answer this call to duty.. I'd be thrilled to get the Sun 1 clone, but it'd cost several hundred dollars to ship up here. ok -r ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 15 Jul 1997 07:39:46 GMT From: Paul Leondis Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation Subject: antique computer blowout I'm looking to get rid of some stuff, let me know what you think: I've got a huge amount of old S-100 bus stuff, almost all of it with technical manuals and software on diskette, that was working the last i knew. Most is Godbout stuff, some Morrow, some Dual, etc. Lots of 8" floppy drives and diskettes. I have most of the processor boards that were released by Godbout, including 8088, 8086, Z80, 8080, 68000, and i even have some of the National Semiconductor 32000 series cpus on S-100 cards. I have all the stuff like CP/M 68K with the associated assemblers and linkers etc. I also have a complete working [?] Sun I clone: yes, that's right, the first SUN design was public domain (did you know that?? At least that's the way i understand it...) and a company called Forward Technology made clones of that design. It has a 68K cpu running in a multibus one chassis, and i have lots of peripherals for it, including 9-track tape drive and 1/4" tape drives and disk controllers for several interfaces. I've got all the relevent software, inc. V7 unix and a mess of compilers. I have the (at the time) very high res monochrome monitors that went with the system. It's a real wrench for me to let go of this stuff, if you were in this field 10 or 15 years ago you know what i paid for some of the stuff. But i'm tired of hoarding it all. So, i will take the best offer i can get for all of the stuff. My reserve bid is $0, that is i will give it away if that is the best offer. I will probably be most moved by someone that may actually get some pleasure out of the stuff and esp. someone that would want to take the whole lot. There is a free city dump day coming up in my part of town on July 19th, so i'd like to settle the stuff by then so i can dispose of whatever is left at that time. Paul Leondis leondis@slip.net 510-649-0993 phone Berkeley, CA From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jul 15 16:06:16 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > By older Sun, I mean Sun-2. The stuff is still around, but not in huge > gobs like the Sun-3s. I would have expected SGI Iris (pre-4D, that is) to > be rare, as the company was still very small then. I would also imagine that the older IRIS 2000 series workstations and the 1000 series graphics terminals are quite rare. From what I've seen, the IRIS 3000 series systems are much more common. I've seen quite a few of these available for sale or hauling, and I know of several that are still in use. It could just be that these machines are newer, but it seems that SGI had started to make some inroads into Evans & Sutherland's territory by the time that the 3000 series machines were phased out in favor of the MIPS-based boxes. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 16:52:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? References: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> <199707151840.OAA20617@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33CBF11C.5E1C@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Yeah, but when those chip leads get corroded and all the aluminum > > parts have this white, fluffy oxide all over them, and when you > > see trails of oxide where the foil pattern *USED* to be, it's time to > > hang it up . . . > > > > Jeff > About this, do not forget about the leaking backup batteries for > static memory settings...waaaah! Green jiggles where traces used to > be... I've run into the problem of leaky batterys corroding circuit boards quite a bit, mainly on arcade games and computer motherboards where the battery is soldered in place. As long as the corrosion isn't too bad, I use Muriatic Acid, i.e. 33% HCl, and add it a drop at a time to the affected area. After all the fizzing has stopped, I rinse it under the faucet with cold water, dry it, and generally everything ends up fine. If I am feeling particularly like doing the job right, after rinsing under the tap, I'll rinse it off with either DI (DeIonized) or distilled water. A couple of hours out in the sun or under a lamp completes the job. Where traces have been eaten away, it is generally not too hard to just replace the traces with wire wrap wire. Granted, it takes some time but it can be worth it. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 17:09:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: Message-ID: <33CBF533.3476@rain.org> I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major stumbling block is, of course, funding. But that aside, what type of things does this group think a computer museum should consist of and what should it offer? I am talking here about a physical location as opposed to an online web site. The type of things I am currently considering are: What should be on display considering: 1) space limitation 2) Mainframes, minis, micros 3) What would most attract visitors 4) What would most attract funding :) Other activities to make the museum more than just a display of computers: 1) Computer certification classes 2) Availability of documentation for those doing historical computer research 3) Newsletter 4) Information on promoting computer collecting 5) Being able to provide docs and software (subject to copyright restrictions of course) I am thinking of quite a few other things but this will do for a start. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jul 15 17:36:21 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <01IL9TDNDJ9IA4ROGZ@cc.usu.edu> > What should be on display considering: > 1) space limitation > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros > 3) What would most attract visitors > 4) What would most attract funding :) I'm afraid number 3 and number 4 will turn you into The Boston Computer Museum. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From KFergason at aol.com Tue Jul 15 18:16:09 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <970715191555_1657404756@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-15 13:32:57 EDT, you write: << IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. >> hmm, my experience is just the opposite with this drive. I had 6 out 7 fail in less than 6 months back in 1990. The 4096 was just hideous. Kelly From rcini at msn.com Mon Jul 14 18:52:51 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I EI question Message-ID: Hello, all: I'm trying to track-down a mod that Tandy on the Expansion Interface. On one of my early EIs (SN# 000352), there was a 6-pin DIN modification, which someone at one time told me was to correct some erratic signal problems. So, I called Tandy and ordered the EI service manual, but it only applies to the "new" PCB version (units with SNs 035000 or greater). Does anyone have the schematics to the original one and can check pin functions?? Internally, the board is labelled "1700077-C", does not have the green conformal coating, and has the RAM chips right next to the power supply section. Mod 1 is on IC Z17 (LS157), pins 1 and 8 (GND) Mod 2 is on IC Z24 (LS32), pins 4 and 7 (GND) Mod 3 is on IC Z22 (LS367), pins 12 and 8 (GND) Matching the old ICs and pin numbers to the new schematics produces the following: Mod 1 is for the MMUX line, Mod 2 is for WR* and Mod 3 is for INT* Can anyone verify this? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 18:35:07 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707152344.QAA01332@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 NEC > 420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 months > continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these drives, > it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they > continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry an egg > on it! :) Where is the heat localized? The logic board gets hot around the bearing (bushing), but the case itself shouldn't get hot. I'd be worried. I deal with a *lot* of old systems, and I don't see any more dead ST-225's than others. I always keep an ST-225 around, 'cause I *know* it'll go on #2 in the ROM drive table if I can't locate the listing in the BIOS. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 18:54:13 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: <01IL9TDNDJ9IA4ROGZ@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33CC0DA5.3DA8@rain.org> Roger Ivie wrote: > > > What should be on display considering: > > 1) space limitation > > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros > > 3) What would most attract visitors > > 4) What would most attract funding :) > > I'm afraid number 3 and number 4 will turn you into The Boston Computer > Museum. > Without 4, there is no 3, and without 3, what purpose would a museum serve :)! From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 18:25:27 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <199707160007.RAA23897@mx2.u.washington.edu> C64 Porer supplies... I have a box full of C64 P/S's ...I sell them for $18 plus S/H, 60 day warranty. Got cables and manuals and lotsa software, too. I don't have any 128's. Anyone wanna get rid of one cheap? Trade a slightly used Panasonic HHP for one :> > >The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power > >supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It > >looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & > > if it is potted, NOPE. some are unpotted and can be fixed. > > >New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your > >Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some > >documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, > >so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is > >why I switched to computers). > > > > I have these manuals too and I must say that it leaves no tern left unstoned. > From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 18:50:59 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707160007.RAA08796@mx5.u.washington.edu> > What should be on display considering: > 1) space limitation > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros > 3) What would most attract visitors > 4) What would most attract funding :) Three things which have changed radically over the years.are - 01 Power (including speed) - 10 Cost - 11 Display capabilities (on affordable systems, that is) You might want to consider comparing the above parameters system-by-system. Software has become less klunky over the years. Try having an ancient word processor running so people can see, say, the number of steps required to open a file. Don't forget output technology...compare an old daisy wheel to a laser, a superannuated 9 pin to a modern 24 pin, get a thermal printer, and a thinkjet (really raunchy output, but FAST). I'm collecting historically significant micros (such as the C64 -- they're cheap, so everyone got one.) If you can get the dirt on why, for example, CBM shot themselves in the foot, that would be interesting. Why aren't Apples more common, for example? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 19:10:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Keyboard for? References: <199707152344.QAA01332@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33CC1183.47DC@rain.org> I've got a keyboard labeled "Executive Peripheral Systems" copyright 1982. What makes it strange is the cartridges that plug in. This one has three cartridges that plug into the keyboard along with some corresponding overlays to identify the funtion keys. The first cartridge is labeled "Your Program" and is also labeled "BASIC & DOS." The second is "BASIC & DOS" for use with the ApplewriterII, and the third is "BASIC & DOS" for use with Visicalc. The connector looks like an RJ-11 telephone connector (with 6 connections.) Anyone know what this thing is? Thanks. From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 19:06:50 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707160118.SAA10901@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Most 225s were not fails, just retired due to small space available. FYI > you get better results if the disk is LLF'd in situ and well warmed up. That's doubly true for RLL encoded ST-506/412 drives. These drives should be LLF'd from time to time anyway. Most HD controllers have a built-in LLF routine which you can access via DEBUG. From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 20:20:47 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <33CBF533.3476@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707160120.AA23849@interlock.ans.net> > 1) space limitation Unless one collects just the dies of microchips, the rooms will fill fast. Collectors of just about everything have proved this. > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros I suppose it would be hard to collect everything - for example, one could make a huge collection just with VT100 clones! I think it is very important that even if a museum specializes (probably the most realistic option), an objective view of history must not be lost. > 3) What would most attract visitors Not static displays! TC"M" started that way - great for us geeks, but not for the average person. Current museum thinking is for teaching the public, not saving the past. A bit of a shame, really. > 4) What would most attract funding :) Going tax-free and everything like most large museums is quite difficult. Generally a number of people are needed to form a board of directors, in order to run the corporation. Unless you REALLY plan on doing a serious job, it would be best to call it a private collection. This means that any monetary donations really are personal income with no tax advantages for either side of the transaction (generally a bad thing, as so many people view donations with an eye to write off some taxes). Currently RCS/RI is looking to incorporate _eventually_ - we would like a few more members. Now, we are simply a collective - rent gets split evenly. How is CHAC handling this? William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 20:45:01 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I EI question Message-ID: <199707160145.AA03497@world.std.com> At 08:49 AM 7/14/97 BST, you wrote: >> (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) >Do you mean the East German Robotron Elektronik, or is this another Robotron 2084 was a video game (put out by Williams, I think). The story was that robots had taken over and were killing off mankind. You were man's last hope as a super-ized human, you could shoot the robots and save the people. You ran around doing just that. There were various types of naughty robots and a family (mom, dad, son, daughter) that you ran over (picked up?) to save. What made Robotron different from most games was that it used 2 joysticks, one for movement and one for firing. To be any good at the game, you had to be able to work them independently of each other. Spent a lot of quarters on that game. There were other 2-joystick games, including Sinistar (mine bombs to blow up Sinistar before it's completely built) and a spiderweb game which I forget the name of. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From kyrrin at wizards.net Tue Jul 15 21:05:35 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: New surplus outlet! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970715190535.00f8aef8@mail.wizards.net> Denizens of the Bay Area, check this out! HMR Recycling (www.hmr-usa.com), when I had the opportunity to visit, reminded me greatly of one of the Surplus Warehouses of Olde. Reasonable prices, huge assortment to choose from, and 100,000 sq. feet of warehouse to peruse! Example: Nearly new-looking Tektronix 7844 dual-beam O-scope, with a pair each of 7B92A timebase and 7A26 vertical plugins, with cart: $400. Other examples: Emulex P3000 print server, $20. DEC RRD42 SCSI CD-ROM drive, $20. Exabyte EXB-8200 2.3 gig 8mm tape drive, $125. One of my finds there was a pair of DEC storage expansion cabinets at $45 each (bargained down from $50 since I bought both of them). They each contained a pair of DEC RZ57 drives (made by Micropolis, 1.0 gigs each, all SCSI). Heck of a deal! They get new stuff in literally every day. I went there twice on different days, and found some neat deals both times. 08:00-16:30, Monday-Friday only, minimum purchase $20.00, and you need to sign the visitor log and wear a visitor badge while looking around. Other than that, enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 15 22:36:34 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <199707160007.RAA08796@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >> What should be on display considering: >> 1) space limitation >> 2) Mainframes, minis, micros >> 3) What would most attract visitors >> 4) What would most attract funding :) 5- Location, Location, Location!!! Personally I'd say the prime locations would be the Silicon Valley, and the Silicon Forest. 3&4 sound rough, I'd definitly check one out if it was near me, but I'm crazy :^) > >Three things which have changed radically over the years.are >- 01 Power (including speed) >- 10 Cost How about how peoples perceptions of cost has changed? In the early to mid-80's a Commodore 64 was considered expensive by most. Now everyone seems to be going out and spending about 5 to 10 times that much on system >Software has become less klunky over the years. Try having an ancient word >processor running so people can see, say, the number of steps required to >open a file. Now there is a cool idea! Maybe trace the history of a WP like Word Perfect, of course if you weren't careful this could take up a museum by itself :^) >Don't forget output technology...compare an old daisy wheel to a laser, a >superannuated 9 pin to a modern 24 pin, get a thermal printer, and a >thinkjet (really raunchy output, but FAST). And input tech, starting with wired boards up to..... >CBM shot themselves in the foot, that would be interesting. Why aren't >Apples more common, for example? Price, when they were tops, the Apple was great, but two expensive. Then they were old tech, and still fairly spendy. Don't get me wrong I love my Apples, but the Price/Performace ratio was wrong for the times I think. Still the Apple II in it's various incarnations was produced for about 15 years. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 21:58:26 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <02582622104195@michianatoday.com> At 09:34 AM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are >faster!) and their reliability is at best ok. FYI: st225s live far I would if I had a ST-251, but I got 4 ST-225's, and 2 of them are in use, and the other 2 are spares. they are slow, but they do work nicely. I also like the sound of old hardware, the new drives you can hardly hear them run, with these, you can hear them a mile away! :) The cooling fan on this machine is as loud as the hard disks, and moves lots of warm air.. >longer if they are cooled. If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough >air past them, seriously! Also if they are in the smae box as all the >other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their it is in an XT case, which is huge, and has one slot free for air to move.. and my room is not air condidtioned, but the house is, but the cold never travels in here! >life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air >conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. > >Allison > > From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 22:13:44 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <03134487204253@michianatoday.com> At 01:18 PM 7/15/97 +0000, you wrote: >simply too small try first: under the width of drive cage, seal the >grille holes on metal sheet and on case cover on right side, seal >that underside holes, all with a good tape. On that XT PSU, how much >airflow blowing out back, weak? Look for a replacement fan that does >better than this el cheapo fans. Try AT type case if you can, they >has bigger, powerful fan. Ok, I checked it out, and it appears that there already is a vinyl plastic glued to the front, with a 5160 sticker on it. I also put a cardboard cover in the empty bay, and this seems to work. the PSU is actually not IBM made, it is an aftermarket brand that has a strong fan in it, stronger than what I find on NEW Yackard Hells! >XT case design especially in cooling department is bit goofy, blamed >by IBM for this ill. :) It continues to amaze me on just WHY whatever IBM made, as flawed as it is, the public jumped on it and supported it... look at winsucks 95..... >> there is good air flow, just they seem to run this >> hot. >More power to air flow is needed, see the tips.. >> I never ran these drives before and have no idea how hot they should >> be. as for power cycling, they get NONE. this system has been running for 2 >> months continous, without any powerdowns since they were installed, so for 2 >> months now, the thermal stability has (hopefully) stayed the same. >> thanx >Hey, no problem! >Jason D. > From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 22:35:54 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <03355494504339@michianatoday.com> At 02:45 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >One last item. MAKE BACKUPS OF EVERYTHING. make duplicate backups and test >the backups for integrity. Disks fail, and the cheapest insurance is a boot >and backup package that works when you replace/repair the offending drive. > > >Allison > This is why I like the 20 and 40 meg drives, I can back up key elements of the OS and configs, and restore them easily. as for 3.5 being more reliable, they are not, as I bought a Conner CFS-850A 850 meg, and it worked nicely for a year, then one day I am greeted with this error: BOOT DISK FAILURE, SYSTEM HALTED. it suffered a head crash, it would spin up normally, and when the controller tested the head actuator upon startup, there was a time when the head would seek to a location on the disk, and GRIND to a halt. the drive never worked again... I lost 700 megs of stuff, half unreplaceable (my fault, but I have no tape drive). fortunately the drive did have a 3 year warrenty, and a replacement was shipped, a 1.2 gig seagate ST-31276A. and here is another question: Is this going to last me more than a year? If Seagate made good drives in the past, will this new one live up to this, or is this drive chock full of corner cutting? From spc at armigeron.com Tue Jul 15 22:58:47 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: While the cat's away... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jul 15, 97 12:46:12 pm Message-ID: <199707160358.XAA25954@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Whitson once stated: > > And, if anyone can tell me why 11 NT servers in > a single domain would crash one at a time every > 4 minutes and 20 seconds until the whole network > is gone - please let me know ;). > Sounds like someone found the WinNuke program (or had it and found your network) and started having fun. WinNuke will Blue Screen (TM) Window NT and horribly crash Win95. Nice to know that Chairman Bill's company writes such robust software 8-) -spc (Okay, no more MS bashing from me ... ) From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 20:19:32 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <03355494504339@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199707160519.BAA04045@mail.cgocable.net> Allison and TJ Plajer....Hello all, and I compress two emails into one.... Snip! Strong message about backing up... Yes right... :) I am still running without a real backup as I hate tapes...still waiting for right price on writeable optical drive types. The key thing is 3.5 drives is still good and considered best thing for us if you know what one to get and avoid specific ones. I have bunch of 3.5's spinning away just fine, thanks. :) > reliable, they are not, as I bought a Conner CFS-850A 850 meg, and it worked > nicely for a year, then one day I am greeted with this error: I forgot to tell ya...Newer Conners are comfirmed as excessive duds for sure. Only older 20 to 500mb before '92 are ok but after that everything gone into dirt. Funny that people who flied out of Seagate to form COnner in '85 about and Seagate brought Conner back in, therefore Name of Conner is gone, thank god, but seagate is still making low end drives with Conner parts. :) Right now you're holding that 1.2gb drive is really Conner's design. Suggest sell it and find a real Seagate in ST5 series or their higher end or any mid to high end Quantums, WD's in WD2xxxx series not 3 or up, they're often early drives becaue it takes WD time to ease out bugs and compress more data onto more reliable 2 platter drives are WD2xxxx series. Maxtor, JTS and oddball names is still bad news IMOH. > it suffered a head crash, it would spin up normally, and when the controller Snipped of woes... sad. :) > 1.2 gig seagate ST-31276A. and here is another > question: of reliablity on this one...mixed yes/no but you're spinning russian dice. Heh... If you have compared that ST31276A case, besides the iron magnetic shield and one screw in middle, to the CP30084H they're look-alike and I have the conner drive dated '88 120mb uses same pack design. Now, about your XT case cooling topic, please cover whole right side of cover grille too. This side where the PSU red switch is and this side is dead air and not too useful. Must cover all the open slot cutouts with blanks, that does not help at all as you think. On related slot topic I did found a ps/2 30 where mouse got through the open slot and peed/pooped inside and left it dead and I cleaned motherboard up with hot water/liquid dish soap and rinsed then blow dry, came out fine and a vastly relieved owner. :)) !!!! Moral of life, plug, cover all 1/4" or larger holes!!! Hey, I AM using win95, yes it's goofy too but with top quality components and lots of fans roaring away I can leave it on 24/7 to assist me to talk on this emailing list and others things. (Asus P/I-P55T2P4 w/ P5-100, 1.5 yr old ST51080/ 3yr old Quantum LPS540, 16mb.) Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 20:23:00 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <33CBF11C.5E1C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707160522.BAA04301@mail.cgocable.net> > jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > rusted trace stuff... snip! > > > Jeff Me whining about rust. :) > Muriatic Acid? Why? Is those all fuzz green things still shorts things or still giving problems even resulting mess was cleaned up with strong alcohol and checked out for shorts, I did not find any opens or shorts....? Jason D. > I've run into the problem of leaky batterys corroding circuit boards > quite a bit, mainly on arcade games and computer motherboards where the > battery is soldered in place. As long as the corrosion isn't too bad, I > use Muriatic Acid, i.e. 33% HCl, and add it a drop at a time to the > affected area. After all the fizzing has stopped, I rinse it under the > faucet with cold water, dry it, and generally everything ends up fine. > If I am feeling particularly like doing the job right, after rinsing > under the tap, I'll rinse it off with either DI (DeIonized) or distilled > water. A couple of hours out in the sun or under a lamp completes the > job. Where traces have been eaten away, it is generally not too hard to > just replace the traces with wire wrap wire. Granted, it takes some > time but it can be worth it. > > From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 15 00:10:18 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:57 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? References: Message-ID: <33CB063A.7A03@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Apologizes to all the non-Silicon Valley folk having to see all this > localized blather. You don't have to apologise as I, for one, really enjoy it. It give me an insight of how you live and collect. Thank you enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 00:38:35 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? References: <199707160522.BAA04301@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33CC5E5B.42C6@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > > rusted trace stuff... snip! > > > > > Jeff > Me whining about rust. :) > > > Muriatic Acid? Why? Is those all fuzz green things still shorts > things or still giving problems even resulting mess was cleaned up > with strong alcohol and checked out for shorts, I did not find any > opens or shorts....? > Most batteries seem to leak an alkaline substance so acid will neutralize it. Why Muriatic Acid? While there may be better things around, I used to own a printed circuit shop and that was what we used to clean up the solder plated boards without damaging them or leaving some other residue on the boards. What happens if you don't neutralize any remaining residue from the batteries? You may find the board failing at some time in the future. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 15 07:15:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: News from Apple References: Message-ID: <33CB69E5.6FF8@ndirect.co.uk> Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. > > That conflicts with my memories. Remember, the Lisa didn't appear for > six years after the Apple II. Jobs is the one who talked Woz into > redesigning his homebrew system for production. Far from being against > the Apple II, that machine was what kept Jobs eating long enough to fail > with the Lisa and barely break even with the early Mac systems. This is true but it doesn't stop the fact that he was very mcu AGAINST continuing the Apple II production. He and his collegues even set up a separate group sporting a black flag with all the usual death simbols to testify that they regarded themselves as "pirates" against the "approve" estabilishment of the Apple family (read series II and later Lisa). >(We > needn't discuss his more recent "successes" -- even though I thought the > NeXt cubes were pretty neat). "Success" is a VERY subjective word. He is a successful man allright but is he happy? > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 15 11:08:32 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Stan Veit's book References: <3.0.3.32.19970715094343.007f9e70@mail90> Message-ID: <33CBA080.1AAD@ndirect.co.uk> Glenn Roberts wrote: > > nice review enrico. Thank you. It's nice to be appreciated. enrico From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 20:59:41 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151845.AA16261@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707160559.BAA07459@mail.cgocable.net> Jason D. Snipping in order...aw! not even better. :) > Can't say I disagree. You however confused my assertion of better > performace in terms of access times, with reliability. Its faster and more... Thanks for clearing up...no one is perfect. > Yes, heat is baddie for anything remotely useful machines... > true, but there are voice coil dries out there that do not hold up well too. > It's a design trade made by some companies thinking the mechanics will never > outlive the electronics. Much of it is process quality and handling. Most > bad drives I've seen were from warm enviornments or dropped in their life. Sounds like you're talking about el cheapo drives that uses voice coil? What I saw so far is usually few mech/coils/ failure and most boards/platter/heads/bearings failures especially that Maxtor. :)) > It has a problem with gyroscopc precession, this makes it very susceptable > to small shocks when running. The bearing does not like sideloads either. > I agree it could have been better thought out. Thanks...I thought so too and still wished Seagate learned better BUT past is past but not with rebranded "Conner" of their low end is still begging for trouble. :) > Your assertion about smaller is better yes, in many ways but not always when someone cuts corner. Designers: Take note! > Your tips about LLF/temp. Yes, I did too. > need speed I try to use others (quantum q540 30mb is nice!). My god, reliable, massive, trumping hd! :)) Quantum still is making good drives and very reliable even to low end ones. Wow. Reason I kept suggesting mid to high end is for performance wise. > Your list of drive ripped open.... Did: nearly all Seagate series, few CDC, few Imipris, lots Miniscribe, few Mircropolis, lots Kalok (virtual clone of ST225, huh!), Kocera, lots of Conner of any kinds and oddballs including 2.5" , WD very few. Did Microscience, IMI, lots of Maxtor, Toshiba, odd ball JVC's, Nec yuk! One comment, DEC never make their hd's far as I was concerned, contracted out to anyone willing to do it for Dec's biddings. :( Once, I got a RZ23 scsi, can't use it on pc, returned back. If there's was a way to make this work, great! > I have an st238 that refuses to die! That's ST225 serie with RLL, odd 26 sectors, ST250R uses 31 sectors by 771 I think. > Allison's advices of cleaning/smaller is better stuff... Still they require good cooling anyway. > >AC or no AC by me... > > Tell me! I run microvaxen, Q-bus PDP-11s and s100 systems and 20 years of > experince (and reliability studies) has taught me 90F is a hard ceiling and > to shutdown with fans running if it gets hotter. I know this from my days > at DEC in the mill when my office system (11/23) was fried by an AC failure, > the area hit 98f and the 11 went down for the count. I've been pulling the > plug regularly this year as we've had a lot of warm here in MA. ;-) Really? Several suggestions: If you add more fans to monitors, turn off unneeded lights, close the sun-lit window and few uneeded equipment, you will cut down the heat. When I ran my monitor w/o fans my bedroom feel hotter; with fans on monitor, room felt cooler. Both of my pc and monitor is there. > Even without AC, every effort to remove heat is good! Even if you can't > lower the ambient, keeping the guts closer to it will help greatly. Thanks! > My s100 crate has two 5" 120cfm fans pushing air up through the cage and it .... > compared the the 8" drive and considering it's 20 years old... it still > runs. I am hearing the noisy fans on monitor, one fan blowing into is pulled from dumptered dec rainbow (sorry!) and a PC fan on top pulling hot air out. > > Even my ba123 microvax, I replaced the fans to blow up as someone put them > in backwards for less noise. You fight convection and lose cooling ..... > where things may have been replaced but with the wrong >(underrated) items. Those fools...I quote again: "no user serviceable inside..." angry hiss. Simply tell users if they want anything altered, ask tech people to do it instead! The fan can be flipped around. Allison's ranting about back up stuff...yes right, I know. Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 16 03:31:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Keyboard for? In-Reply-To: <33CC1183.47DC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > I've got a keyboard labeled "Executive Peripheral Systems" copyright > 1982. What makes it strange is the cartridges that plug in. This one > has three cartridges that plug into the keyboard along with some > corresponding overlays to identify the funtion keys. The first > cartridge is labeled "Your Program" and is also labeled "BASIC & DOS." > The second is "BASIC & DOS" for use with the ApplewriterII, and the > third is "BASIC & DOS" for use with Visicalc. The connector looks like > an RJ-11 telephone connector (with 6 connections.) Anyone know what > this thing is? Thanks. If its for AppleWriter II then my guess would be it was for an Apple ][ and had special keys for making it easier to use Visicalc and perhaps some editing features for programming in AppleSoft BASIC. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 16 03:44:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: <33CB69E5.6FF8@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > > > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > > > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > > > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. > > > > That conflicts with my memories. Remember, the Lisa didn't appear for > > six years after the Apple II. Jobs is the one who talked Woz into > > redesigning his homebrew system for production. Far from being against > > the Apple II, that machine was what kept Jobs eating long enough to fail > > with the Lisa and barely break even with the early Mac systems. > > This is true but it doesn't stop the fact that he was very mcu AGAINST > continuing the Apple II production. He and his collegues even set up a > separate group sporting a black flag with all the usual death simbols to > testify that they regarded themselves as "pirates" against the "approve" > estabilishment of the Apple family (read series II and later Lisa). I think you're reading too much into this. Jobs wasn't against the II. On the other hand, he WAS for the Mac. John Sculley killed the Apple ][. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 16 07:46:09 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: Philip: Thanks for the error codes. I have no manuals for the Datamaster, so I'm flying blind. The code "09" is inverse-blinking, so there is a real problem. I'll try to pull the chips and re-seat them. The machine worked last summer and wasn't used since then, so I can't imagine the chip going like that. Thanks again for the help. I'll let you know what I find. My company has a UK office (Burdale-Holdings, a trade finance company). If I do need a new chip, maybe we could arrange it so that you could drop it off at our London office (if you're near it) and they could send it to me. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 09:05:06 BST From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706158689.AA868982856@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least > could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no > manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen > during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number: "09" and I'm > assuming that this is a hardware failure code. As promised, I have hunted through my various IBM System/23 (Datamaster) manuals, and found the meanings of the POD (Power-on Diagnostics) error codes. Here is a summary: FF} 00} CPU Failure (!) 01} 02 Failure of first ROS module (Read Only Storage module, i.e. ROM chip) 03 Reserved. If this is highlighted, panic. 04 Failure in bottom 16k of storage, or of storage controller 05 CRT (presumably actually monitor) or DMA failure 06} CRT interface 07} 08 Page registers 09-} ROS failure. There follows a little diagram to tell you which chip 19 } to replace. Yes, the diagram in the manual is made of text, too. ** TOP VIEW OF PLANAR SEEN FROM THE REAR ** _______________________________________________ | ====== ====== <-- NOT FOUND ON | | | 10 | | 11 | <-- SOME EARLY | | =3=40= =3=60= <-- MACHINES | | | | ====== ====== | | | 19 | | 0D | | | =7=60= =1=60= | | *********************** | | =PATCH= ====== * PHYSICAL LOCATION * | | | 18 | | 0C | * OF ROS MODULES * | | =7=40== =1=40= * FOR EACH ERROR CODE * | | *********************** | | ====== ====== | | | 17 | | 0B | -KEY- | | =6=60= =0=60= ====== | | | XX | | | ====== ====== =Y=ZZ= | | | 16 | | 0A | XX=POD ERROR CODE | | =6=40= =0=40= Y=ROS PAGE VALUE | | ZZ=HIGH ORDER BYTE OF | | ====== ====== FIRST ADDRESS IN | | | 15 | | 09 | ROS MODULE. | | =5=60= =0=20= | | ---(CABLE)-------------- | | ====== ====== | ====== | | | | 14 | | 02 | | | 09 | CO-PLANAR | | | =5=40= =0=00= | =0=20= BOARD. | | | | (FOUND ON | | | ====== | ====== SOME EARLY | | | | 13 | | | 10 | MACHINES.) | | | =4=60= | =3=40= | | | | | | | ====== | ====== | | | | 12 | | | 11 | | | | =4=40= | =3=60= | | | ------------------------ | ----------------------------------------------- 1A-} ROS failure on feature card 26 } 27 ROS failure on 2nd printer card 28} ROS failure on feature card 29} 2A-} RAM failure. Table (which I shan't include) of how codes 30 } relate to different sizes of machine. 31 RAM page access failure 32 DMA page register failure 33 Interrupt controller failure 34 Timer interrupt failure 35 Keyboard error. If flashing, keyboard controller. If not flashing, you pressed a key at the wrong moment :-) 36 Printer failure 37 Printer not switched on 38 Diskette attachment failure 39 24 volt rail not reading 24 volts 3A-} belong to add-ons not to the system. I didn't bring the FE } relevant manual pages. General rules for interpretation: Flashing inverse video = fatal error. Non-flashing inverse video = error. Press the Error-reset key and let the machine finish booting. Then run the diagnostics dikette, I suppose. To summarise, it appears you have a dud ROM chip. I imagine the solution is to copy a ROM chip from another Datamaster. If necessary, I can arrange to copy mine, but I don't know off-hand what sort of chips they are. I would also suggest that, unless you too are in England, logistics of getting the chip to you might be hard... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Das Feuer brennt, das Feuer nennt die Luft sein Schwesterelement - und frisst sie doch (samt dem Ozon)! Das ist die Liebe, lieber Sohn. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 16 07:59:37 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I EI question Message-ID: Allison: >>the mod was to bring out ras* cas* and MUX* with terminating resistors at one or both ends. These signals went through the EI cable but timing was critical at best. the later EIs derived cas* and mux* off of ras* inside rather than pipe them over. Generally speaking the mod was one where if it was mostly working it MIGHT help, sometimes it made it worse. There was another mod after that called the buffered EI cable...not a good idea either. Fixing the EI was the solution.<< One of the two units that I have has the mod and the other doesn't. The one without came with the buffered EI cable, so what you said makes sense. Thanks for the info; now I can trace the mod on the new schematics. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jul 16 14:28:24 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706168690.AA869088574@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > Thanks for the error codes. I have no manuals for the Datamaster, so I'm > flying blind. The code "09" is inverse-blinking, so there is a real problem. > > I'll try to pull the chips and re-seat them. The machine worked last summer > and wasn't used since then, so I can't imagine the chip going like that. Yes. Definitely! The diagram in my last post should tell you which chip it is. Now I think of it, I had a problem with my Commodore PET in which chips would ease their way out of the sockets on the motherboard. In the end I bought some decent turned-pin sockets and soldered these in place of the originals. Problem cured. One of the PET ROM chips lost a pin in the course of all this. (AAARGH!). Solution here was to take a staple from my stapler, open it flat, insert into socket in place of missing pin, and solder to the stub on the side of the chip. Wire cutters then trimmed both ends, and chip was as good as new! > Thanks again for the help. I'll let you know what I find. My company has a UK > office (Burdale-Holdings, a trade finance company). If I do need a new chip, > maybe we could arrange it so that you could drop it off at our London office > (if you're near it) and they could send it to me. Why did I open my big keyboard? Yes, should it come to that I shall be happy to do something of the sort, but I don't (a) know what kind of chips they are or (b) possess an EPROM programmer (shock horror!). There is at least one other Datamaster owner on this list, so if someone out there is better equipped than I am to help Rich, please speak up now! Philip. From william at ans.net Wed Jul 16 09:25:33 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970715185752.5dd7b438@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199707161425.AA25449@interlock.ans.net> > There were other 2-joystick games, including Sinistar (mine bombs to blow up > Sinistar before it's completely built) and a spiderweb game which I forget > the name of. Black Widow by Atari - vector graphics and quite rare. William Donzelli william@ans.net From idavis at comland.com Wed Jul 16 10:09:50 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > >>> What should be on display considering: >>> 1) space limitation >>> 2) Mainframes, minis, micros >>> 3) What would most attract visitors >>> 4) What would most attract funding :) >5- Location, Location, Location!!! > Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn into a travelling museum/art show. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jul 17 10:22:17 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <01BC920D.A01174E0@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> Hi, does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack for a ST Book??? From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 16 10:28:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:00:12 pm Message-ID: <199707161546.QAA01494@lilith.rsc.co.uk> > And, I need a username and password to log into it. What's the VMS > equilvalent of root? Equivalent is system If you don;t have it, depending on the model [I own a microVax II] boot up in admin mode [on mine it's I think b /s] when at the sysgen prompt set UAFALTERNATE to true, then any password should work. May be totaly different for your Vax however. I cool thing to check out is NetBSD Vax... Groovy free Unix for Vaxine. The things on the back... serial ports for terminals???? #define AUTHOR "Grant Mitchell" /*RSC Tech Support*/ #include /*include obligatory song lyrics*/ #include /*Usual don't blame me stuff*/ void main(){printf"bleep, bleep, That's all folks");} From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 16 10:45:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! In-Reply-To: <01BC920D.A01174E0@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Stefan Walgenbach wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack > for a ST Book??? Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 16 07:29:28 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707161629.MAA23593@mail.cgocable.net> Allison, I have WD's true story...to tell.. > Never confuse reliability with quality. the 3.5" drive have inherant > reliability over the larger ones but crap is still crap. Depends on brand actually. Because my friend who runs computer business says Quantums he sold over 400 over few years period and he says he can count on one hand that came back bad. I have to agree because I have not seen not too many duds from Quantums unless was destroyed by users. For Seagate low end especially if it's their seagate design not conner. Mid to hi end are fine. ST5 series are middle to hi end and that shows. > > Unknown ask others. I have a fujitsu with no complaints but I know others > that see nothing but failures of the next larger and smaller model. I will > say I've seen models where vendor xx is the one to have and two years later > that vendor is producing duds. The MTBF for these drives is so high that > they should last for many years of you believe specs and all the parts are > up to quality. However a head crash suggests a defect or handling problems > (dropped) maybe before you even got it. I cringe when people ship hard > disks without major padding. About Fujitsu, not too bad quality but very few and hard to get, odd performance as well. Yes, yes yes thickly and firmly pad the hd for shipping!!! :)) yes right! I have seen conner ship their 10 drives in so called padded cardboard grid. NOT! > > FYI I have at least three 3.5" drives with good media and dead boards! if > anyone has a wd-AC160 or wd-caviar2340 that's dead I'd love the board from > them. I have stuff on those that should have been backed up. Well, I have to join you on this too. :) Anyone have a WDAC2200 logic board? Someone previous to me burned out the board on bare metal surface. Story of the lifetime... Ok, quite while back I scored a coup on 4 drives for $40, good ST3290A, sick conner 2.5" 60megger booted out as you know what I hated conner, two WD's sick 540mb and crushed WD21000. Did I heard "crushed"? That's right, crushed! Key word is that seal is not piecred or broken. Both WD still under warrenty and I was honest and meek when I called WD for RMA and told the service that one hd is crushed and the service asked if the seal was broke, no. Fine ship both back when you get RMA, one mistake in RMA oops, called again fixed it and got new RMA. Shipped both with correct RMA and got the both back execpt for 540 was out of stock so "upgraded" to 850 model and I got the WD21000. Cool! Still in original box and unbroken seal bag brand new 1gb hd. This goes with one motherboard when I find a lunchbox for linux work. The crushed hd top at one end was really crunched in on front at one place with some degree of flat crush across front end only but none of parts did not broke free and the whole top looked someone slid it across whole length of landing strip. What interesting most is the logic board survived the tramua with nary a mark on it. What worked this honest and being clear with what I have and no lies. Amazing. One warning: YMMV. By the way anyone got a interesting tale to tell us in turn? Jason D. > Allison > > > From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jul 17 12:14:20 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <01BC921D.417D9F70@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> ---------- From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sent: Donnerstag, 17. Juli 1997 18:00 To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! >> Hi, >> >> does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack >> for a ST Book??? > > Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? Yes - sorry I forgett to mention Atari in my posting - it is a Atari ST Book - a real notebook not one of the big Atari STacy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970717/f68d7428/attachment.bin From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jul 16 12:39:34 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716133934.00968e70@mail.northernway.net> Howdy, guys & Gals! I just came back from our local [p]university's junk-sale and I did find a couple of interesting things: they had all their equipment for sale: $5 per item. I left all the 8088 / monochrome clone junk (I remember when these were bought... most *were* junk).. I found an Epson LQ-500 with tractor feed -- $5. I picked up a Mac IIsi ?/40 (nice Quantum 40Megger in it :-) for -- $5.00 [Drum roll, please] And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. Did I do good? Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow. Here's a question: Who's interested in typesetting equipment? They had a Compugraphic machine with 8" drives there... dunno price. But it had several font carts with it, and I do know this baby's classic. (The stuff I used to work on was at least 10 years old, and this is older.) Maybe I'll go back and get that tomorrow as well... if my wife doesn't kill me first! If anyone's interested in the other commie stuff lemme know today and I'll snag it tomorrow. (E-mail's best... see below.) Anywho, any info on the B-128 would be most appreciated! Thanks one and all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 13:47:33 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: MTBF vs. lifetime In-Reply-To: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jul 16, 97 11:28:39 am Message-ID: <9707161747.AA17383@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/2c6b29d0/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 14:22:58 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's In-Reply-To: <9707061946.AA01707@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 6, 97 12:46:26 pm Message-ID: <9707161822.AA17301@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1372 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/ccae578d/attachment.ksh From s-ware at nwu.edu Wed Jul 16 13:50:05 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716133934.00968e70@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, > or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff > (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I > collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. The B-128 is a business-oriented machine that Commodore introduced in about 1982. The numeric portion of the model number and the amount of standard RAM are about all that it shares with the C-128. The standard processor is a 6509, although an 8088 can be installed as well. The display is 80-column monochrome. A version of BASIC is built in, and, with the optional 8088, it can (supposedly) run CP/M-86. As another B-128 owner, I'm interested in additional information on this machine, as well. How about it, Commodore fans? > Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door > style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky > Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow. You may want to go back for the drive unit. There was a PET-style dual drive unit at the store with my B-128 when I bought it, but I didn't see the connection between the two items (which should have been obvious - a Commodore with an IEEE-488 interface and a PET-style floppy disk unit) at first and passed the drive unit up due to lack of space. Unfortunately, it was gone when I came to my senses the next day and went back for it. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 13:45:26 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about > contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, > or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of > other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and > I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn > into a travelling museum/art show. > > Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, While you're at it, you could have a picture on the monitors that would show everyone the graphics capabilities of the machine. (i.e. have a digitized Degas on an Amiga, etc.) L From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 13:47:11 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers References: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33CD172F.20C5@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > FYI I have at least three 3.5" drives with good media and dead boards! if > anyone has a wd-AC160 or wd-caviar2340 that's dead I'd love the board from > them. I have stuff on those that should have been backed up. Just out of curiosity, how do you know the media is okay and the board is dead? I've gone through quite a few IDE HDs changing the board from a good one only to find out that the board was not the problem. While I haven't done any failure analysis on them, I would suspect either a bad chip at the end of the flexures that hold the heads, or a failure in the flex cable itself. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jul 16 13:48:48 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > > > Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about > > contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, > > or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of > > other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and > > I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn > > into a travelling museum/art show. > > > > Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, > > While you're at it, you could have a picture on the monitors that would > show everyone the graphics capabilities of the machine. (i.e. have a > digitized Degas on an Amiga, etc.) > Or some ASCII-art on a PDP... From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 13:53:27 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716133934.00968e70@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Howdy, guys & Gals! > > And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, > or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff > (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I > collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. The B-128 was meant to be a "business" computer. Our high school was a commodore school (no Apple II's here!) so they had a lot of these laying around. Looking at the B-128/256 users manual I have... 6509 CPU with optional Z80 and 8088 CPU's for CP/M 128k memory expandable to 256k internally and another 704k externally for a total of 960k. "Ports" include: IEEE-488 Bus, RS232C, Dual 8-bit User Ports, and it had "integrated" disk drive(s). Those computers are REALLY neat looking. (You have to see one to know what i mean) Sorta like a Funky looking PET. Les > It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" > RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at > it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it > seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and > that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. > > Did I do good? > > Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door > style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky > Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow. > > Here's a question: Who's interested in typesetting equipment? They had a > Compugraphic machine with 8" drives there... dunno price. But it had > several font carts with it, and I do know this baby's classic. (The stuff I > used to work on was at least 10 years old, and this is older.) > > Maybe I'll go back and get that tomorrow as well... if my wife doesn't kill > me first! > > If anyone's interested in the other commie stuff lemme know today and I'll > snag it tomorrow. (E-mail's best... see below.) > > Anywho, any info on the B-128 would be most appreciated! > > Thanks one and all! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional > Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers > zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Wed Jul 16 03:44:01 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707160844.EAA21587@wincom.net> At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major >stumbling block is, of course, funding. But that aside, what type of >things does this group think a computer museum should consist of and >what should it offer? I am talking here about a physical location as >opposed to an online web site. > >The type of things I am currently considering are: > >What should be on display considering: >1) space limitation >2) Mainframes, minis, micros >3) What would most attract visitors >4) What would most attract funding :) > >Other activities to make the museum more than just a display of >computers: >1) Computer certification classes >2) Availability of documentation for those doing historical computer >research >3) Newsletter >4) Information on promoting computer collecting >5) Being able to provide docs and software (subject to copyright >restrictions of course) > >I am thinking of quite a few other things but this will do for a start. > > We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of interest to get more public support. Good luck Charlie Fox From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 14:57:29 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: Message-ID: <33CD27A9.546E@rain.org> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > While you're at it, you could have a picture on the monitors that would > > show everyone the graphics capabilities of the machine. (i.e. have a > > digitized Degas on an Amiga, etc.) > > > > Or some ASCII-art on a PDP... And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where you put an AM radio near it as the output device! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 16:05:08 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 16, 97 06:48:48 pm Message-ID: <9707162005.AA17936@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/9268edda/attachment.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 15:07:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: <199707160844.EAA21587@wincom.net> Message-ID: <33CD2A0C.7040@rain.org> Charles E. Fox wrote: > > At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the > >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major > We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to > start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of > interest to get more public support. Has he been actively trying to get one started, and if so, what has been the major problem? One thing that has been suggested by a couple people I have talked to is to have displays that include technology developed by local companies. My feeling so far is that the funding sources will have a large impact on what is covered. I saw an interesting web site a couple of days ago, http://www.mysticseaport.org, that has what appears to be a somewhat self supporting museum going, i.e. no state or federal monies involved. I find THAT to be most admirable!!! From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 15:09:49 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: <9707162005.AA17936@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33CD2A8D.15D5@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Or even better, Lunar Lander on a GT40 vector display on a PDP-11/05... > The PDP-11/05 is no problem but I am not familar with a GT40 vector display and what is required to interface it, both hardware and software. Please enlighten me :)! Thanks. From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Wed Jul 16 16:15:23 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <199707161715_MC2-1B03-5891@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. Did I do good? Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow.< The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the last/best members of the Commodore PET/CBM line; the C-128 was one of the last/best members of the VIC/64 line. Both had 128K. The PET/CBM units use an IEEE-488 interface for adding drives, printers, etc., and this parallel approach is fairly fast; the VIC/64 line use a proprietary serial connection that is fairly slow. In other words, you'd better get back and pick up that 8050 if you want a disk drive that attaches to the B-128; there are other PET/CBM drives that would also work (e.g., 4040, 8250), but the 8050 would probably provide the greatest compatibility if you ever want to pick up software. Drives from the 15xx series (1541, 1571, 1581) won't help you here. Did you do good? Only you can answer that. The unit isn't extremely common, but isn't extremely rare either. If you're not into Commodore, you might want to find someone who is and see if you can work a swap of some kind. (I already have a B-128, thanks.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jul 16 17:08:45 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <33CD27A9.546E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > Or some ASCII-art on a PDP... > > And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where > you put an AM radio near it as the output device! I thought that was the Altair. It was Dompier's altair, at some meeting. The TX-0 also played music, but that was through a speaker. And I'm pretty sure the 11s had some sound capabilities besides ^G... From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 18:25:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <33CD2A8D.15D5@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jul 16, 97 01:09:49 pm Message-ID: <9707162225.AA14981@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/d5e10813/attachment.ksh From frank at 5points.com Wed Jul 16 17:31:38 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > References: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <33d848ef.259973978@mail.capital.net> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:09:50 -0500, Isaac Davis wrote: >Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about >contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, >or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of >other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and >I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn >into a travelling museum/art show. I'm almost there -- I still own the building I ran a gallery for contemporary art from for about ten years. I closed the gallery a couple years ago to spend more time on my other work (physics), but I now use the former gallery's back rooms, where I once stored my inventory of paintings and sculpture, to house my current collection of old computers. Classic computers, especially if opened to display their inner workings, could make a rather stunning exhibition -- far more interesting than a lot of contemporary art. :-) Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 16 17:44:59 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707162244.AA21202@world.std.com> <> And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where <> you put an AM radio near it as the output device! < <>Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How <>about <>contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a <>couple of ... This is one I'd be interested in. Computers/terminals/printers etal represent the art of engineering in many forms. Mechanical, there were some inovative packages. Conceptual, the packaged home computer like the PT SOL-20. Electronics... afew were designwise ahead of the pack. application... it wasn't the machine, it was it's useability. Art both musical and visual. Some were interally well done and had order and form like archectecture. Some like the cromemco dazzler were color graphics back in 76! Or like the PIAA-8700 for music. Ergonomics... the vt100 terminal was a standard for more than the terminal operation it was an erogonomic advance over many with the seperate keyboard, setup on screen and down to small things like the dull black bezel around the crt! Allison From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 16 19:47:15 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970716174920.30bf756a@ricochet.net> At 05:22 PM 7/17/97 +0200, you wrote: >does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack >for a ST Book??? No, but if you give up searching, I'd love to take it off your hands! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 16 19:47:24 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970716174923.30bf58b2@ricochet.net> At 08:45 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >> for a ST Book??? > >Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? The ST Book was an actual laptop with an ST inside. As far as I know few if any were ever produced. (Perhaps they made it to Europe, which is where Tramiel always concentrated.) Different from the STacy which was also portable, but required a much bigger lap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Wed Jul 16 19:59:51 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707170059.AA05170@interlock.ans.net> > > And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where > > you put an AM radio near it as the output device! > > I thought that was the Altair. > It was Dompier's altair, at some meeting. The TX-0 also played music, but > that was through a speaker. And I'm pretty sure the 11s had some sound > capabilities besides ^G... I do not know about PDP-11s, but PDP-12s (and LINC-8s, I think), have a speaker connected to the LSB of the accumulator (volume knob provided, of course). Additionally, the LINC-8 has a bell that chimes when the halt instruction is executed. For funding a museum, why not cut an album of all of your favorite minis in action? Sure to go to the top of the charts... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Jul 16 20:45:48 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707170145.AA07121@interlock.ans.net> > I would also imagine that the older IRIS 2000 series workstations and the > 1000 series graphics terminals are quite rare. From what I've seen, the > IRIS 3000 series systems are much more common. I've seen quite a few of > these available for sale or hauling, and I know of several that are still > in use. Actually, I mean the 1000 and 2000 series. Maybe I just got lucky and saw the results of one or two good shipments. At the time, I did not get the stuff, but now that I need lots of spare parts, I regret my choice (lesson learned, again!). If I were you (and, of course, if you are interested), I would grab the Iris 3000 stuff. It will soon be gone. William Donzelli william@ans.net From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 22:54:23 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <199707161715_MC2-1B03-5891@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the > last/best members of the Commodore PET/CBM line; the C-128 was one of the > last/best members of the VIC/64 line. Both had 128K. The PET/CBM units > use an IEEE-488 interface for adding drives, printers, etc., and this > parallel approach is fairly fast; the VIC/64 line use a proprietary serial > connection that is fairly slow. OK, I think we need some clarification here. What does your "B-128" look like? My B series user guide indicates four distinct models... 1. C128-40 "Advanced Personal Computer" Basically this is a B128-80 with a 40 column screen (sounds like a VIC chip to me) and comes in a low profile case (sorta like an amiga or 64) Not to be confused with the more common C128. 2. and 3. B128-80 "Advanced Business Computer" the manula says there were two versions of a B128. A low-profile model and, of course, a high profile one. The low-profile model is like the C128-40 but the high profile model has integral disk drive(s) and display and a detachable keyboard. The low-profile, of course, required external drives (IEEE-488) and video. 4. B256-80 "Advanced 16-bit Proffessional Computer" this model only came in the high profile case (I think) and came standard with 256k ram (as opposed to the 128k i the other "B" computers), dual processors (6509 and 8088), and "spots" for optional Z80 and 8087 co processors. Really neato looking machine. > In other words, you'd better get back and pick up that 8050 if you want a > disk drive that attaches to the B-128; there are other PET/CBM drives that > would also work (e.g., 4040, 8250), but the 8050 would probably provide the > greatest compatibility if you ever want to pick up software. Drives from > the 15xx series (1541, 1571, 1581) won't help you here. > > Did you do good? Only you can answer that. The unit isn't extremely > common, but isn't extremely rare either. If you're not into Commodore, you > might want to find someone who is and see if you can work a swap of some > kind. (I already have a B-128, thanks.) > Gil Parrish Well, I'm "in" to Commodore and don't yet have one so if yer willing to sell/trade, lemme know! Also, if you want a copy of my "User's guide" that shouldn't be much of a problem, it's a whole 120 pages. Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 16 23:32:21 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series Message-ID: catching up... Most of what has already been said here is pretty much correct. I'll add: B-series were regular low-profile micros. CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the CBM series machines. IMO they're pretty nice machine which had some attractive options when they came out. They didn't last long and very little seems to have been written for them. You can find schematics for the B-128-80 in the archive (Web/FTP). If any of you need a drive for one of these CBM 4040's work fine (8050 is a better but less common drive). I have a number of 4040s and could definitely part with a couple if you want to pay the shipping costs (heavy, heavy drives). As soon as I clear through the research I have several items for this series that will go in the archive - the manual, a word processor and a spreadsheet, and some technical notes. Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up owning the rights to this stuff? Bill From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 23:45:56 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > B-series were regular low-profile micros. > CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the > CBM series machines. Me neither. Anyone got one???? > If any of you need a drive for one of these CBM 4040's work fine > (8050 is a better but less common drive). I have a number of > 4040s and could definitely part with a couple if you want to pay > the shipping costs (heavy, heavy drives). Where are you located? My PET is lonely and has only a C2N cassette to play with... > As soon as I clear through the research I have several items for > this series that will go in the archive - the manual, a word > processor and a spreadsheet, and some technical notes. > > Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up > owning the rights to this stuff? > > Bill Last I checked/remembered, ESCOM held the rights to the Commodore name and to many of their patents/literature/etc. They are at http://www.commodore.net. Lately, Gateway purchased all the Amiga stuff and if I remember correctly started licensing clone makers. Much to the chagrin of commie lovers, the C= logo now only appears on PC clone boxes... :( Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 17 00:08:29 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series References: Message-ID: <33CDA8CD.6F93@rain.org> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > B-series were regular low-profile micros. > > CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the > > CBM series machines. > > Me neither. Anyone got one???? I have at a CBM 8032 and another something out in the garage that I *think* is another CBM machine. When I got it (8 or 10 years ago) it came with a bunch of cassette tapes, a CBM 8050 dual floppy drive, and some other stuff I haven't gotten back into to see what it is. At a quick glance, it looks like one of the 2001 series except for a slightly larger monitor and a slightly different looking keyboard. A friend of mine is going to loan me his digital camera to play around with and I hope to be putting up a web page within two months. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 17 01:21:16 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Amiga/C= (Re: Commodore B-128 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Last I checked/remembered, ESCOM held the rights to the Commodore name and >to many of their patents/literature/etc. They are at >http://www.commodore.net. Lately, Gateway purchased all the Amiga stuff >and if I remember correctly started licensing clone makers. Gateway got the Amiga stuff, but not the Commodore stuff. The two are once again seperate companies. Amiga is a seperate business unit of Gateway http://www.amiga.de , and I believe consists of 7 people. Apparently work is underway on a 64-bit version of the OS running on the PowerPC. I think there are a total of two clone makers, and Amiga itself has two models, both of which are '93 era tech! Somehow it seems like a ridiculous risk on Gateway's part, but who knows. As for Commodore, they are owned by some Dutch company now I believe, but am not sure. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jul 17 04:11:47 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, David Williams wrote: > Finally, I saw talk here recently about IBM external 5 1/4" floppy > drives. Someone said something about using one on an Amiga I think. > If this is possible please let me know as he has several. I guess that was me talking. I'm a bit of a special case, in that I have this little device called "Amiga Disk Driver" that plugs into the Amiga's external floppy port and wires up to a standard PC 3.5" floppy mechanism. To use the external IBM 5.25" drive, all I should have to do is build an adapter cable to the 37-pin connector on the IBM drive. Without this "Amiga Disk Driver" thingamy one would have to perform the (minor) magic performed in an external Amiga floppy drive some other way. I'm afraid I can't help you there. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 17 08:33:19 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8501@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the<< >OK, I think we need some clarification here. What does your "B-128" look like?< You'll have to ask the guy that left the original message. I was replying to him. However, his brief description made me assume it was a low-profile B128. >1. C128-40 "Advanced Personal Computer" Basically this is a B128-80 with a 40 column screen (sounds like a VIC chip to me) and comes in a low profile case (sorta like an amiga or 64) Not to be confused with the more common C128.< This one is also known as a P-500, and seems to have been the equivalent of a super-duper C64. It had the C64's 40 column color display (the rest of the line was monochrome) but had the faster IEEE drives, etc. >2. and 3. B128-80 "Advanced Business Computer" the manula says there were two versions of a B128. A low-profile model and, of course, a high profile one. The low-profile model is like the C128-40 but the high profile model has integral disk drive(s) and display< Presumably, if it was paired with an 8050 drive unit, it didn't have integral disk drives, and was the low profile model. >4. B256-80 "Advanced 16-bit Proffessional Computer"< He said "B128", and I'm taking him at his word. >Well, I'm "in" to Commodore and don't yet have one so if yer willing to sell/trade, lemme know!< Again, maybe the original poster will take you up on this. Also, I know one store in Oklahoma City that's had a low-profile B128 sitting around for some time. (I don't live in OKC, so I can't swear it's still there.) The store has a bad habit of never putting a price on anything, so I don't know if the guy wants a mint for it or just a few bucks. If you want to try contacting him, I'll try to dig up the name/address, but please don't put me to the effort unless this sounds like something you seriously want to pursue. >Also, if you want a copy of my "User's guide" that shouldn't be much of a problem, it's a whole 120 pages.< I have one, thanks, but the original poster might be in the market. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 17 08:33:22 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series Message-ID: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8504@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up owning the rights to this stuff?< No clue. Commodore, of course, went bankrupt. Originally, it looked like ESCOM ended up with everything. I made several efforts to contact ESCOM through e-mail to determine what their plans were for the old 8-bits items, and never could get a reply. Then, ESCOM went bankrupt. I'm not clear if the Commodore bankruptcy court sort of cancelled the deal retroactively, or if the assets were moved again in the ESCOM bankruptcy. Anyway, another party (Gateway?) ended up with the Amiga assets, but they don't have-- or aren't acknowledging that they have-- the old 8-bit assets. Frankly, I doubt this point will ever be clarified. If the old entities have been disolved, and no new entities obtained the rights before the dissolution, it would seem to me this stuff is now public domain. Of course, the simplest way to find out would be to start treating this stuff as public domain. If any entity out there believes it has the copyrights, it will then make itself known. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jul 17 09:23:12 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:58 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8501@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970717102312.0098fcd0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Gil Parrish said: >Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>> The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of >the<< > >>OK, I think we need some clarification here. What does your "B-128" look >like?< > >You'll have to ask the guy that left the original message. I was replying >to him. However, his brief description made me assume it was a low-profile >B128. Ok. Here's the guy with the original message. To be honest, at first I wasn't sure what I had... >>2. and 3. B128-80 "Advanced Business Computer" >the manula says there were two versions of a B128. A low-profile model >and, of course, a high profile one. The low-profile model is like the >C128-40 but the high profile model has integral disk drive(s) and display< > >Presumably, if it was paired with an 8050 drive unit, it didn't have >integral disk drives, and was the low profile model. I have the low-profile version of the machine, with no monitor or drives. I plan on getting the 8050 drives today at noon, if they're still there. There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it. The machine is serial # C002688... Does anyone know if this is early, or is the C in the SN# mean the third time around the digits? Also, what was special about the 6509 processor over the 6502? [[ BTW, I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep this one or not... It seems rather unique, which I like, but I'm not sure if I'd actually use it, which is something I like to do as well... ]] >He said "B128", and I'm taking him at his word. Funny thing is, I think they used the same motherboard for the B128 and B256... there are solder holes & all for another bank of ram, but no sockets... you'd prolly want to solder in sockets, then add 16 more 4164-15's and Bingo! You should have 256K RAM. >>Well, I'm "in" to Commodore and don't yet have one so if yer willing to >sell/trade, lemme know!< I'll be keeping this in mind. Anyway, again -- I love this list! :-) -- and thanks one and all for the help you've given me for the help on this little beastie! I'll let y'all know if the 8050 was still there. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 17 09:54:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment References: <3.0.1.32.19970717102312.0098fcd0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33CE321A.3B2E@rain.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it. The machine is serial # > C002688... Does anyone know if this is early, or is the C in the SN# mean > the third time around the digits? Also, what was special about the 6509 > The B128-80 that I have is Serial #C010033. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 17 10:02:07 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where > > you put an AM radio near it as the output device! > > I thought that was the Altair. > It was Dompier's altair, at some meeting. The TX-0 also played music, but > that was through a speaker. And I'm pretty sure the 11s had some sound > capabilities besides ^G... Actually, both are correct. In the old OMSI computer lab we had a fairly good selection of tunes you could hear thru the AM radio atop the PDP-8. Later, the Altair picked up on this as well. In fact, I've still got a original copy of the Dompier programs and docs which I will be adding to my web pages as time permits... (OCR correcting and all...) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 17 10:06:44 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <199707162244.AA21202@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > The altair thing was via radio, but also there were not less that a dozen > different sound and music boards for altairs/s100 systems. Some I might add > were very good. At least one used the pinte line (shows the internal state > of the 8080 processor interrupt enable flag). Yep. That was the Processor Technology "Music System". I still have the board and software in my collection. Really do need to get a picture of the board onto the web pages. (all three resistors and two capacitors of it!) The software also appeared (briefly) as the infamous "Volume 39" of the CP/M User's Group library. (before P.T. started threatening everyone involved over copyright infringements and such) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 17 11:21:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jul 17, 97 08:06:44 am Message-ID: <9707171521.AA19829@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970717/beaf1253/attachment.ksh From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 17 10:14:36 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8504@compuserve.com> References: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8504@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <33ce3590.304368@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:33:22 -0400, Gil Parrish wrote: % If any entity out there believes it has the %copyrights, it will then make itself known. I tend to agree with this. If we make all 'reasonable' (and documented) efforts to contact who we believe to still hold the rights and do not receive any reply, then we should be able to reasonably assume that the stuff in question are public domain. This until such time when the real owner steps forward whereupon we prove (based on the documentation we have kept) that we have tried all means possible to contact the owner but received no reply. I believe this reasoning can apply to products which have long ceased production and where such products no longer have any commercial value (other than as collectibles). Ben From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jul 17 12:06:04 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: More News on Commie stuff in Michigan Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970717130604.009613f0@mail.northernway.net> Hey, me again! I'm the guy with the funny Commodore stuff.... Just got back from the sale... the drives were gone. :-( The printer was still there (buried) -- it was a 4023 printer. No-one mentioned interest in the printer, so there it sits. It is IEEE-interfaced. Altho I did pick up a TI-59 calculator with 1 recording strip, says it contains diagnostics, IIRC. $5. (was marked $10, talked 'er down). I also got an *old* HP frequency counter, with cord & probe, $5. (Yea, it's not computer, but it'll help me fix computers, so I hope a quick mention is o.k. It should make a pretty good friend to Tex, my pet 'scope. ;-) I found a set of dual IBM 8" drives, marked $10. It had a funky interface (well, for micros) of a 25-pin female D _and_ a 15 pin (I think) female D... it was a 60xx series number, and the Compugraphic box with dual 8"ers is still there, no price. It had paper and a processor with it, tho. Anyway, sorry the drives were gone, thanks for the help on the B-128, and I'll try to reach my decision on keep/trade on the box over the weekend (I'll be canoeing... and *no*, this is one of the few places I won't take my Tandy 200!) Is a Mac IIsi classic yet? Not sure when they were made... it's got a 68030 with a 40Meg SCSI and (if I counted correctly) 9Meg RAM. If someone's got a color monitor (whatever it takes) mouse & keyboard for trade for it, that'd be cool... lemme know. (I'd be much more willing to trade the B-128 for this particular deal...) As always: Stay cool, keep your 'puters that way too, and clean those floppy drives every so often! ;^> Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 17 12:00:19 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Les wrote: >>Last I checked/remembered, ESCOM held the rights to the Commodore name and >>to many of their patents/literature/etc. They are at >>http://www.commodore.net. Lately, Gateway purchased all the Amiga stuff >>and if I remember correctly started licensing clone makers. True, ESCOM, AG owned all of the rights to the Commodore name, intellectual property, etc., but it mid-96, filed for the German equivalent of bankruptcy (receivership, I think). This put the Commodore assets in play again. GW2K bought the Amiga stuff, but the other stuff is still in limbo (I think). In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone interested in buying Commodore assets?? I only have several VICs, a 64, and a lonely PET. I'm in need of "rounding out" my CBM collection. So many models, so little time... ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jul 17 12:32:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: <33CDA8CD.6F93@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > > > B-series were regular low-profile micros. > > > CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the > > > CBM series machines. > > > > Me neither. Anyone got one???? Sorry for the misunderstanding... If by CBM series you mean the PET's then yeah I got one. I thought you were referring to the B series that had the integrated monitors and looked like PET's. Those are what i haven't seen yet. Les > > I have at a CBM 8032 and another something out in the garage that I > *think* is another CBM machine. When I got it (8 or 10 years ago) it > came with a bunch of cassette tapes, a CBM 8050 dual floppy drive, and > some other stuff I haven't gotten back into to see what it is. At a > quick glance, it looks like one of the 2001 series except for a slightly > larger monitor and a slightly different looking keyboard. A friend of > mine is going to loan me his digital camera to play around with and I > hope to be putting up a web page within two months. > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jul 17 12:57:39 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind In-Reply-To: <9707141823.AA11496@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <563BD257A06@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 11:02:03 am Message-ID: <150A878A7B7E@ifrsys.com> Guys: Thanks to everyone who submitted information on my *controller* cards. I got pretty much everything I need to know on the -05 cards, but the -TB1 is still a problem. WD implied over the phone that this was custom made. OK. It is currently mounted in a Radio Shack cabinet with a Tandon 15Mb drive. Any Ideas? > > > > > One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If > > > > anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would > > > > really appreciate it. > > > > > > The Emulex SCSI controllers (adapting to MFM, SMD, or ESDI drives) are also > > ^^^^^^ > > > > I have a *MAJOR* axe to grind with these guys, dating from way back, > > BTW. > > Oh, really? Seeing as how the old Emulex was split up into little > tiny companies and the new Emulex is almost entirely in the network > business, I don't think you have anything to fear by telling your > story :-) > > Tim. > OK, maybe it's not really *that* relevent to this forum, but I'll relate the story anyway. In the early to mid 1980's, EMULEX purchased Persyst, a manufacturer of PeeCee display adaptors. Persyst (now EMULEX) made a pretty cool (for the time) 16-bit hi-rez display adaptor for the PC-AT called the BoB-16. They named it that because it represented the "Best of Both" the MDA and EGA adaptors in use at the time (that, and it was 16-bit). I bought one of these (cheaply, I'll admit) in 1988. I was gonna use it with a Mitsubishi Multisynch monitor (Which was pretty cool in its own right-- it could handle CGA, MDA, EGA, *and* composite video!). I got the docs and the driver kit from EMULEX (they did that much). So far so good. But the Windoze driver was for ver. 1.00! Another call to Emulex, and I was informed that "We don't make that board anymore, and we're not going to support it under Windoze 2.0". "Okay, that's cool, I understand how that goes. So, could you please give me the source for the 1.0 driver, so I can modify it?" "I'm sorry sir, but that's against company policy . . ." After many weeks of wheedling, cajoling, begging, pleading, and otherwise being a real pest, I gave up, swearing to Everything Holy that I would NEVER under any conditions purchase anything from EMULEX ever agin. Of course were something like this happen today, I could broadcast this on the Newsgroups or on a Web Page, and all of the bad press would stomp the likes of EMULEX into submission. End of Story. I still have the BoB-16 in a closet somewhere . . . Jeff From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 17 12:57:37 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <9707171521.AA19829@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The software also appeared (briefly) as the infamous "Volume 39" of the > > CP/M User's Group library. > > Ah, I see this volume is mysteriously missing from the oak.oakland.edu > archives and Walnut Creek CD/ROM archives... I'll have to see if > my collection of CPMUG floppies at home has it or not. (I definitely > have holes, but I never knew there were legal reasons for the holes!) > > > (before P.T. started threatening everyone > > involved over copyright infringements and such) > > Who is "P.T."? Processor Technology... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Thu Jul 17 13:08:30 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: looking for iRMX O/S for 8086 Message-ID: <97Jul17.112445pdt.32263@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> I'm trying to find diskettes and manuals for a release of iRMX that runs on an Intel 310-3A box (8086 processor). I have 2 of these running production electronics testing that have died. We are getting them repaired by InBUS. But we've never used the backups that were given to us when these machines transferred from another plant. We didn't get the original iRMX diskettes, and just a couple of manuals. I suspect the backups may be for just the application software, and not the entire hard disk (there are only 3 diskettes in the backup set). As far as I can tell, we are using iRMX-86 release 6. I've been trying to get someone at Radisys (who support the current version of iRMX), but haven't been able to speak to anything more than voice mail so far. I'm not very hopeful, though: this is pretty old stuff. Does anyone still have the diskettes and manuals for this release that I could copy or purchase? Thanks, Clark Geisler Test Engineer From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jul 17 14:19:59 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: TO: Clark Geisler In-Reply-To: <97Jul17.112445pdt.32263@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> from "clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com" at Jul 17, 97 11:08:30 am Message-ID: <199707171919.OAA00335@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Please include your email address. I have iRMX release 7.0 What do you have to trade? John > > > I'm trying to find diskettes and manuals for a release of iRMX that > runs on an Intel 310-3A box (8086 processor). > > I have 2 of these running production electronics testing that have died. > We are getting them repaired by InBUS. But we've never used the > backups that were given to us when these machines transferred from another > plant. > We didn't get the original iRMX diskettes, and just a couple of manuals. > I suspect the backups may be for just the application software, and > not the entire hard disk (there are only 3 diskettes in the backup set). > > As far as I can tell, we are using iRMX-86 release 6. > > I've been trying to get someone at Radisys (who support the current > version of iRMX), but haven't been able to speak to anything > more than voice mail so far. I'm not very hopeful, though: this is pretty > old stuff. > > Does anyone still have the diskettes and manuals for this release > that I could copy or purchase? > > Thanks, > Clark Geisler > Test Engineer > > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 17 15:33:50 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <199707171634_MC2-1B14-F9CB@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >I have the low-profile version of the machine, with no monitor or drives. I plan on getting the 8050 drives today at noon, if they're still there. There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it.< That's what it sounded like; this seems to be the most common machine in the P/B line, at least in the U.S. It's the same as what I have. >[[ BTW, I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep this one or not... It seems rather unique, which I like, but I'm not sure if I'd actually use it, which is something I like to do as well... ]]< "Using it" is somewhat problematic. While there is a fair chunk of software out there for the PET/CBM line, a lot of that won't run on the B series, at least without modification. As a "for instance", the typical way to find out how much memory you have on a Commodore machine is the check FRE(0). The "0" is a dummy variable on most C= units-- checking FRE(0) will give you the same answer as FRE(1) or FRE(10), etc.-- but "0" is the one typically used. However, on the B series, the variable makes a difference; since it is bank-switched, the different variables let you check different banks. As I recall, a PRINT FRE(0) command on a B-128 yields-- 0. So any software that checks for free memory-- and a lot of PET/CBM software did, since there were 8K machines, 16 K machines and 32K machines-- asks a B-128 that question, gets "0" in response, and crashes. I note the TPUG newsletter seems to indicate the group has some B-128 software, so you could try that route if you wanted. Or, trade the unit off, since it sounds like other folks might be interested. >Anyway, again -- I love this list! :-)< I'm finding it interesting too, at least when it covers the home 8-bits (which I know something about) and not mini-mainframes (which mean nothing to me personally). >-- and thanks one and all for the help you've given me for the help on this little beastie!< Hopefully, that's what we're here for! >I'll let y'all know if the 8050 was still there.< If you want to trade it off, you might not want the drives. Those 8050 and 4040 units are VERY heavy, and a true Commodore enthusiast may already have a compatible drive with his PET/CBM equipment. And there ARE other CBM drives that will work; you might run across them elsewhere. (Actually, one of the nicest drives to own is a third party dual drive called an MSD-SD2. It is a smaller and quite rugged drive, which uses the 4040/1541 format. It has both an IEEE port and a Commodore serial port, so it will work with virtually any C= unit ever made (not counting Amiga and PC-clones). Further, another party came up with a "mass duplicator rom" for it, that allows quick copying from one drive to the other. In fact, it will copy a standard Commodore disk in 15 seconds, or 22 seconds for copy with verify-- and it doesn't even have to be hooked to a computer to do so!) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 17 16:35:17 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind Message-ID: <2942@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <150A878A7B7E@ifrsys.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Guys: > > Thanks to everyone who submitted information on my *controller* > cards. I got pretty much everything I need to know on the -05 cards, > but the -TB1 is still a problem. WD implied over the phone that this > was custom made. OK. It is currently mounted in a Radio Shack > cabinet with a Tandon 15Mb drive. Any Ideas? Have you tried Tandy/Radio Shack National Parts? At one time they sold service manuals for all their computer stuff, and such manuals almost always contained schematics/data on the 'bought-in' parts -- things like PSUs, drives, monitors, etc. IIRC if the stock number for the device was 26-abcd, then the service manual was MS260-abcd. At least in the UK, they were available to the general public. There may also have been a Technical Manual (which would have had a different stock number), but I doubt it. Talking of Tandy stuff, I bought a second-hand Model 4 last weekend. Does anyone know where to get a Technical Manual for this machine? What I really need is a list of Supervisor Calls, Docs on the I/O ports, and a schematics of the CPU board. I believe I have a 'gate array' board - there's a 40 pin chip with a Tandy custom number next to the Z80A. I'd be quite happy to buy the entire technical manual if it's still available anywhere, but I do already have the Model 3 manual, so I don't need any info on the disk drives/controller, RS232 board, PSU, or monitor. Anyway, with this machine I got a Cummana hard disk unit. Cummana were a UK company who later went on to make disk drives for the Acorn BBC micro. This unit contains a Shugart 612 disk (any ideas?) a Western Digital controller (I can't remember the number, but it is a standard card), a PSU, and a little address decoder/interface board. Maybe you have an original Tandy version of that. > Jeff -tony From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Thu Jul 17 05:48:20 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707171048.GAA24917@wincom.net> At 01:07 PM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >Charles E. Fox wrote: >> >> At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the >> >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major > >> We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to >> start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of >> interest to get more public support. > >Has he been actively trying to get one started, and if so, what has been >the major problem? One thing that has been suggested by a couple people >I have talked to is to have displays that include technology developed >by local companies. My feeling so far is that the funding sources will >have a large impact on what is covered. I saw an interesting web site a >couple of days ago, http://www.mysticseaport.org, that has what appears >to be a somewhat self supporting museum going, i.e. no state or federal >monies involved. I find THAT to be most admirable!!! > > The fellow working on the Windsor Ontario science museum is Tom Toth, a retired teacher with political experience. There is also a group trying to promote an aviation museum, (I am a member of that one) and another fellow trying to bring a Canadian navy destroyer to town for a navy museum. The reason for all this interest is that a Windsor resident died and left one million dollars to the city for the establishment of a museum, the only requirement is that it should be named after him. The city finds reasons why all the proposals are unsatisfactory, and collects the interest on the million dollars. I hope someone gets something going soon, because I am not getting any younger and if I fizzle out all my stuff will be going to the dump! Cheers Charlie Fox From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 17 17:16:10 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances References: <199707171634_MC2-1B14-F9CB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <33CE99AA.902@rain.org> Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for the use of computers. Am I missing something? I've heard that one of the early spreadsheets (Visicalc?) was responsible for selling more Apples than any of their marketing efforts. Regardless, that is the type of advance that I am talking about. From william at ans.net Thu Jul 17 17:33:15 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <33CE99AA.902@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707172233.AA03106@interlock.ans.net> > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the > past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are > getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and > whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for > the use of computers. Am I missing something? "Recent" advances would be networking, GUIs, and object-oriented systems. Hmmm...all of these are early seventies Xerox innovations... A continuing series of advancements is occurring in fabrication technologies, perhaps with IBM leading the way (they have always been ahead of everyone else). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:26:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970717102312.0098fcd0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I have the low-profile version of the machine, with no monitor or drives. I > plan on getting the 8050 drives today at noon, if they're still there. > There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it. The machine is serial # > C002688... Does anyone know if this is early, or is the C in the SN# mean > the third time around the digits? Also, what was special about the 6509 > processor over the 6502? I doubt it. If it they made 2,000,000 of these I'd have found one by now. Unless they rolled the letter whenever they made a revision or whatnot. > [[ BTW, I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep this one or not... > It seems rather unique, which I like, but I'm not sure if I'd actually use > it, which is something I like to do as well... ]] Well, if you fall off the other side of the fence I'll be there to catch it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:31:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact > Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in > West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's > remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, > technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone > interested in buying Commodore assets?? Yeah, I was going to suggest this. That would be cool! To actually OWN the rights to a computer I loathed growing up would be ironic at worst. Let me know what you find out about this and I would be an interested investor. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jul 17 19:57:10 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I, too would be a very interested investor if something like the scheme mentioned below could be worked out. Keep my name is mind if anything ever developed on getting these rights. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > > > In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact > > Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in > > West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's > > remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, > > technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone > > interested in buying Commodore assets?? > > Yeah, I was going to suggest this. That would be cool! To actually OWN > the rights to a computer I loathed growing up would be ironic at worst. > > Let me know what you find out about this and I would be an interested > investor. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:49:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <33CE99AA.902@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the > past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are > getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and > whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for > the use of computers. Am I missing something? I've heard that one of > the early spreadsheets (Visicalc?) was responsible for selling more > Apples than any of their marketing efforts. Regardless, that is the > type of advance that I am talking about. Uh, Windows '95? (har har) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:53:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <199707172233.AA03106@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > > spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the > > past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are > > getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and > > whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for > > the use of computers. Am I missing something? > > "Recent" advances would be networking, GUIs, and object-oriented systems. > Hmmm...all of these are early seventies Xerox innovations... > > A continuing series of advancements is occurring in fabrication > technologies, perhaps with IBM leading the way (they have always been > ahead of everyone else). I took Marvin's query to be "What has made people want to go out and buy this computer?" Right off the top of my head the stuff like Sony Playstation and Nintendo 64 and other game machines in the last several years fits this bill. When I saw what a Sony Playstation could do, I went out and bought one that week. And incidentally, it brought about $299 worth of entertainment (well, plus the $150 for the three games I bought with it...was it $450 worth of entertainment? No, that's why I stopped buying the overpriced games for it). Let's see, other than the Internet, there's been no reason why someone has run out to a store and plunked down good money for a computer. The Internet is probably the biggest "killer app" that has caused computers to sell. That and DOOM. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jul 17 20:06:56 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances Message-ID: <970717210655_60866636@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-17 21:02:45 EDT, you write: true, most everything has been done now. pnp and usb were/are trumpeted as new, but IBM ps/2's and macintoshes have had similar things in that the ps2 was essentialy plug and play after running the reference disk, and macs have the adb which allows things to be chained into the keyboard cable. i'd like to hear of other examples also. i can't think of any more right now. << Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for the use of computers. Am I missing something? I've heard that one of the early spreadsheets (Visicalc?) was responsible for selling more Apples than any of their marketing efforts. Regardless, that is the type of advance that I am talking about. >> david From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 17 11:42:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <970717210655_60866636@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On 18-Jul-97, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >true, most everything has been done now. pnp and usb were/are trumpeted as >new, but IBM ps/2's and macintoshes have had similar things in that the ps2 >was essentialy plug and play after running the reference disk, and macs have > the adb which allows things to be chained into the keyboard cable. i'd like >to hear of other examples also. i can't think of any more right now. As has been mentioned in this list before, examples of USB-type setups include the peripheral serial bus on both the Commodore and Atari 8bit lines. These were truly flexible buses, though not the speediest of things. As for the plug&play, that's always been a big feature of the Amiga, long before it became one of the 'in' buzzwords. One could also look at the IEEE-488 bus found on Pet's, Osborne's, and quite a few other computers and pieces of equipment as a predecessor of the USB as well. BTW, could someone tell me the 'proper' way of accessing the mainboard on an Apple /// ? I have a 128k model, likely built in '81 or '82, and the system diagnostics is leading me to think that the memory daughtercard might possibly have worked loose. Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 17 21:09:58 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind In-Reply-To: <2942@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <2942@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33ced026.281697@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:35:17 GMT, you wrote: % %Talking of Tandy stuff, I bought a second-hand Model 4 last weekend. Does %anyone know where to get a Technical Manual for this machine? What I %really need is a list of Supervisor Calls, Docs on the I/O ports, and %a schematics of the CPU board. I believe I have a 'gate array' board - there's %a 40 pin chip with a Tandy custom number next to the Z80A. I'd also be interested in a technical manual for the Model4 since I'm getting one such machine from Jeff H. Ben From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jul 18 00:56:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > > > In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact > > Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in > > West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's > > remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, > > technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone > > interested in buying Commodore assets?? I think that all the "interesting" stuff (8-bit era) has been either pawned off to smaller companies or just dumpstered. i.e. companies like CMD might have the rights to chip XYZ whereas another small company would own the schematics, etc. The source code went to whoever eventually ended up with the "commodore baggage" whether thats ESCOM, VisCorp, Gateway, or whoever... > Yeah, I was going to suggest this. That would be cool! To actually OWN > the rights to a computer I loathed growing up would be ironic at worst. Little bit easier for me I suppose... I just have to run down to the stock broker and buy a few shares in Apple... ;) > Let me know what you find out about this and I would be an interested > investor. > > Sam Me too! On a sidenote, I once saw an ad for some old shares (worthless of course) in Commodore (for people to hang on their wall, etc.) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Jul 18 00:26:10 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128, etc... References: <199707170702.AAA05851@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33CEFE72.71EE@goldrush.com> The B-128 did come in a few models, they have been defined by case design (low profile and high profile) some models came with integrated monitors (looked like really advanced PETs, especially with the detached keyboard). The bulk of the information regarding the B-128 was 'loaned' to the Chicago B-128 Users Group by Commodore (wow, that's a change, eh?) a few years back, I have no idea what had ever happened to the group or where the B-128 info now resides. When Amiga Technologies was sold by ESCOM, ESCOM kept the Commodore trademark and name, as the remaining profitable division was the IBM clone division which used the Commodore name and logo to enhance their image (Commodore is a 'good thing' in parts of europe.) It is still under debate exactly where the technology for the 8-bits have ended up, some say ESCOM, some say partly Amiga Technologies... Dunno. Get the 8050 drive, Commodore IEEE-488 dual drives drives were very expansive and are not as abundant as the later serial models. If you need a cable for it (computer to IEEE-488 device or IEEE-488 to IEEE-488), E-mail me, I currently have a source for a few... Larry Anderson P.S. I started work on the PET FAQ, I outlined it and I have quite a bit of stuff to write! -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 17 18:03:56 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind In-Reply-To: <33ced026.281697@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On 18-Jul-97, Benedict Chong wrote: >%Talking of Tandy stuff, I bought a second-hand Model 4 last weekend. >Does >%anyone know where to get a Technical Manual for this machine? What I >%really need is a list of Supervisor Calls, Docs on the I/O ports, and >%a schematics of the CPU board. I believe I have a 'gate array' board >- there's >%a 40 pin chip with a Tandy custom number next to the Z80A. >I'd also be interested in a technical manual for the Model4 since I'm >getting one such machine from Jeff H. The actual Tandy catalog# is 26-2119, and you might even be able to order one from them still. I know you can get a lot of the disks and such yet. I do have one of these, as it's for both the Model 4 and the 4P. If you had specific questions, I could likely look it up and such though. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Fri Jul 18 05:36:36 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: FS/T Old Computer Hardware and Software Message-ID: <199707172335.TAA28541@wincom.net> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems, nospam@see.below.for.real.email (Vacler) wrote: >All this stuff is used unless otherwise noted. I have noted all problems >that I am aware of, but I haven't turned on a lot of this stuff in a >while. So everything is being sold as is. All prices are negotiable(so >make an offer), and don't include shipping. Items marked "---" are >included with the above item, and items marked "T.O." are ones that I'd >rather trade, but if you really want something marked "T.O." make an >offer. I prefer trades to sales. A list of things I'm looking for is at >the bottom. My real email address's are also at the bottom. Feel free to >ask questions. >--------------------------------------- >FOR SALE / TRADE >--------------------------------------- >APPLE >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Apple IIe Platinum $60 >Apple IIe Platinum(bad motherboard) $20 >Apple II+ $30 >Beltron(Apple II clone) $30 >Bell & Howell Apple II(Darth Vader) $60 >Laser 128EX T.O. >Apple II Mouse --- >Laser Power Supply --- >Laser Manuel --- >Apple IIgs(rom 3) T.O. >Apple IIgs Mouse --- >Apple IIgs Keyboard --- >Apple Lisa II w/keyboard(bad power supply) $170 >Macintosh 512K $50 >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Macintosh Plus(4meg ram) T.O. >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Mac 128/512 Plus keyboard --- >Macintosh Plus(4meg ram) T.O. >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Mac 128/512 Plus keyboard --- >Macintosh Portable w/carry case T.O. >Macintosh SE(bad analog board) $40 >Apple II Joy Stick $10 >Apple ImageWriter I Printer $45 >Apple ImageWriter II Printer $60 >Apple Monochrome Monitor $30 >Apple II 51/4 disk drive $20 >Apple II 51/4 disk drive $20 >Apple II 31/2 disk drive $30 >Apple II 31/2 disk drive $30 >Mac 128/512 Plus 31/2 Disk Drive $30 >SSB-Apple Voice Synthesis Board $20 >Several unknown Apple II cards $15 >Software: >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program (NEW) $6 >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program (NEW) $6 >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program $5 >--------------------------------------- >ATARI >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Atari Video Pinball model C-380 $25 >Atari Video Computer System 2600 black w/fake wood trim $25 >Atari Joy Stick X2 $10 >Atari Game Paddles X2 $10 >Software: >Atari Space Invaders $5 >Atari Star Raiders $5 >Atari Warlords $5 >Atari Donkey Kong $5 >Atari ET $5 >Atari Street Racer $5 >Atari Qbert $5 >Atari Sea Quest $5 >Atari Breakout $5 >Atari Cosmic Ark $5 >Atari Raiders of the Lost Ark $5 >Atari Pac Man $5 >Atari Football $5 >Atari Telegames $5 >Atari Brain Games $5 >Atari Donkey Kong $5 >Atari Bridge $5 >Atari Qbert $5 >--------------------------------------- >COMMODORE >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Commodore SuperPET SP9000 T.O. >Commodore Plus/4 in original box w/power supply and manual $40 >Commodore 64 (for parts) $15 >Commodore 64 (for parts) $15 >Commodore 64C w/power supply $35 >Commodore SX64 T.O. >Commodore 128 w/power supply T.O. >Commodore VIC-20 w/power supply >T.O. >VIC-1541 Disk Drive $20 >C64 1541 Disk Drive $20 >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive $30 >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive $30 >Amiga 31/2 Disk Drive $35 >Amiga 1000 (w/signatures in case) T.O. >Amiga Keyboard --- >Amiga Mouse --- >Amiga 31/2 Disk Drive $35 >Amiga Pin $5 >C64 Modem $10 >C64 HesModem II $15 >C64 Joy Stick $15 >Commodore 1701 Monitor $35 >Commodore Cassette player $10 >Commodore MPS 803 Printer $30 >VIC-20 ram cartridge $10 >Software: >C64 Business Systems $5 >C128 Swift Calc $5 >C128 Word Writer $5 >C128 Data Management $5 >C64 Omniwriter & Omnispell (NEW) $7 >C64 Project Space Station (NEW) $7 >C64 Project Space Station $7 >C64 Graphics Basic (NEW) $7 >C64 Graphics Basic (NEW) $7 >C128 Ghost Writer $5 >C64 Forth $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >--------------------------------------- >Tandy / Radio Shack >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >TRS-80 I w/monitor and printer $45 >TRS-80 Color Computer I T.O. >TRS-80 Color Computer II $20 >TRS-80 Joystick $10 >Software: >TRS-80 Color Script $5 >TRS-80 Color Baseball $5 >TRS-80 Pooyan $5 >TRS-80 Mega-Bug $5 >TRS-80 Dungeons of Daggorath $5 >--------------------------------------- >Other >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Texas Instruments TI-99/4A CPU(Silver & Black) $20 >Super Nintendo System w/2 controllers $40 >Sega Genesis w/3 controllers $40 >Kaypro I $35 >Kaypro II $45 >Software: >Genesis Shining Force $15 >Genesis Shining in the Darkness $10 >Genesis Game Genie $10 >SNES Secret of Mana $17 >SNES Secret of Evermore $17 >SNES Game Genie $10 >SNES Super Mario World $10 >SNES Mario All Stars $15 >--------------------------------------- >WANTED >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >IBM 5100 >TRS-80 Model 100 >Acorn Archimedes 3xx-4xx >Atari 520STm or 520STfm >Apple Macintosh 128k >VGA Monitor >Mac IIfx Memory >External Macintosh CD-Rom Drive >--------------------------------------- >Loren Everly >everly@interpac.net >vacler@hotmail.com >http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/7533/ >--------------------------------------- From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 18 07:28:39 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances Message-ID: <199707181242.FAA12561@mx2.u.washington.edu> Most of my customers are interested in solitaire, Internet and scanners...and you know? I may be wrong, but I see a *lot* of people trying the interned for a couple of months, then letting the subscription lapse. We have millions of potential newbies to work through, but what's it gonna be like in 10 years? How many dust-covered chess-playing machines do you see around? Electronic keyboards? Cuisinarts? I think we're seeing a fad. Killer app? There hasn't been one since multimedia stuff for IBM I mean..) You're right -- we've been refining (and good refinements the've been, some of them! -- I'll take Corel 7 over DOS MS Paint any day). Next killer app? Dunno. Voice recognition? From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 18 08:02:29 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals (was Axe to Grind) Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:35:17 GMT ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>Have you tried Tandy/Radio Shack National Parts? At one time they sold service >>manuals for all their computer stuff, and such manuals almost always contained >>schematics/data on the 'bought-in' parts -- things like PSUs, drives, monitors, >> They still have lots of parts/info. Last week, I ordered the service manual for the Tandy Model 1 Expansion Interface. In 3 days, I got the *original* manual, not a copy of one that was used in a R/S repair center. In the past, I've ordered system diskettes for my Model 100 from the National Parts Software group (Tandy Software, I think, and a different telephone number, too). So, it's clear that they are continuing to support these old machines. From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 18 08:02:20 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares (was Commodore B-128) Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:56:33 Mr. Self Destruct wrote: >>Me too! On a sidenote, I once saw an ad for some old shares (worthless of >>course) in Commodore (for people to hang on their wall, etc.) If you come across this ad again, I'd be interested. Also, to those who have expressed a passing interest in the remote idea of acquiring any leftover Commodore intangible assets {assuming that (1) we can find out who has them and (2) they want only peanuts for them}, I'll be contacting my attorney today to have him get an update from the US Bankruptcy Court. Maybe we can trace what happened after ESCOM went bankrupt last July. My idea would be to acquire the rights to the source code for the ROMs, the schematics for their machines, IC masks for any custom chips, PC board artwork, engineering diagrams, manuals, and service/technical information. That's it. I don't want any inventory (which by now, I'm sure, has been dumped) or tooling. I'm up in the air about trademarks, though (I know that "Commodore" is gone, but the others like VIC, C-64, and PET may still be available). As far as any licenses that Commodore may have had (for games written by third-parties and sold under the Commodore name, for example), I don't necessarily care. Commodore's machines were developed in-house with MOS/CSG parts, so they were owned by the same company ultimately. At worst, we'd need the IC masks for any custom chips (VIC, VIC-II, SID). Sounds like the beginnings of a business case... ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From starling at umr.edu Fri Jul 18 10:09:19 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Jul 18, 97 01:02:20 pm Message-ID: <199707181509.KAA00194@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > My idea would be to acquire the rights to the source code for the ROMs, > schematics for their machines, IC masks for any custom chips, PC board > artwork, engineering diagrams, manuals, and service/technical information. > That's it. I don't want any inventory (which by now, I'm sure, has been > dumped) or tooling. I'm up in the air about trademarks, though (I know that > "Commodore" is gone, but the others like VIC, C-64, and PET may still be > available). Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? I could see purchasing the rights to the C=64 and setting them free as public domain. Perhaps raise the money to do it by selling "shares" of ownership in the rights to C= enthusiasts. That way, emulators can use original C= ROM code without copyright infringement, and "Build Your Own Commie 64" kits could be a possibility. Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd belong to the computing community. I don't see much of a point to owning the rights to such things in a for-proffit mode. Except maybe just bragging rights... "Hey, baby... I own the exclusive rights to manufacture the Commodore Plus 4. Want to go back to my place for a drink?" "Get away from me you creep! My man owns the rights to the Commodore 16!" - starling From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 18 10:52:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: FS/T Old Computer Hardware and Software In-Reply-To: <199707172335.TAA28541@wincom.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems, nospam@see.below.for.real.email > (Vacler) wrote: > > >All this stuff is used unless otherwise noted. I have noted all problems > >that I am aware of, but I haven't turned on a lot of this stuff in a > >while. So everything is being sold as is. All prices are negotiable(so > >make an offer), and don't include shipping. Items marked "---" are > >included with the above item, and items marked "T.O." are ones that I'd > >rather trade, but if you really want something marked "T.O." make an > >offer. I prefer trades to sales. A list of things I'm looking for is at > >the bottom. My real email address's are also at the bottom. Feel free to > >ask questions. A lot of the prices this guy is asking for stuff is a joke. $5 per carthridge? $20 for a //e with a bad motherboard? The only stuff that seems reasonable is the stuff he probably knows about. There are a few good deals in there. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 18 11:06:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <199707181242.FAA12561@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Most of my customers are interested in solitaire, Internet and > scanners...and you know? I may be wrong, but I see a *lot* of people trying > the interned for a couple of months, then letting the subscription lapse. Doesn't surprise me. The Internet is over-rated. Now, I'm not saying the internet is useless, just over-rated. It tends to get played-up like a miracle cure and then when people finally get a taste of it they wonder, "Where's the beef?" > We have millions of potential newbies to work through, but what's it gonna > be like in 10 years? How many dust-covered chess-playing machines do you > see around? Electronic keyboards? Cuisinarts? I think we're seeing a fad. Um, the Internet is not a fad. The Internet is the new paradigm for business and society. The Internet is, perhaps not a quantum leap, but it is a humongous leap for mankind. A fad? Hardly. > Next killer app? Dunno. Voice recognition? Yes. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From classicjr at juno.com Fri Jul 18 11:29:33 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (J, G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 70 References: <199706010702.AAA15184@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970718.112543.12711.0.classicjr@juno.com> I am not getting any more messages! Please change my receiving address to: rottman@worldnet.att.net Thanks everyone! From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jul 18 12:14:15 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Um, the Internet is not a fad. The Internet is the new paradigm for > business and society. The Internet is, perhaps not a quantum leap, but > it is a humongous leap for mankind. A fad? Hardly. Although I think describing the Internet with the word "fad" *might* be a bit harsh, I think it *Might* lose it's luster pretty soon. It IS good for the information gathering/distributing type of thing but a lot of the Internet is just crap. Kinda like TV "'cept different" Pretty soon, we might be able to call it TV-2... > > Next killer app? Dunno. Voice recognition? > > Yes. How bout something that'll brew yer coffee for you in the morning, do the wash, scrub the toilet, walk the dog, etc. Then we won't have ANY responsibilities and we could all stay holed up in our houses all the time. (Just kidding) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 18 12:38:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances References: Message-ID: <33CFAA02.37A5@rain.org> > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > > > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > > I took Marvin's query to be "What has made people want to go out and buy > this computer?" Right off the top of my head the stuff like Sony You took it pretty much how I meant it. Except for speed, graphics, and most importantly to "keep up with the Jones," there is no good technical reason the classics we are talking about are not perfectly acceptable for most applications. The internet has been mentioned as a major advancement, and it is in the sense people might buy a computer just for the e-mail capabilities. The FAX machine falls in that catagory. I don't think voice recognition by itself would be a reason to get a computer. I guess there would be a few other reasons not to use the classics. 1) the lack of new software applications being written and/or upgraded for the classic, 2) the lack of a standard platform to transfer software between machines. I think THAT is probably the major contribution of IBM to the widespread use of computers. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 18 12:48:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Atari still around? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this? Thanks, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 18 12:48:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Um, the Internet is not a fad. The Internet is the new paradigm for > > business and society. The Internet is, perhaps not a quantum leap, but > > it is a humongous leap for mankind. A fad? Hardly. > > Although I think describing the Internet with the word "fad" *might* be a > bit harsh, I think it *Might* lose it's luster pretty soon. It IS good > for the information gathering/distributing type of thing but a lot of the > Internet is just crap. Kinda like TV "'cept different" When I first got onto the net, the first thing I found out was that it is most useful for e-mail. I tried IRC, I tried Usenet, I tried a couple other things, and eventually I found myself paying $19.95 a month for e-mail. I don't think that is much value. Maybe $20 a year would have been worth it, but not per month. For probably 18 months all I had was text-based access. I finally upgraded to a PPP account a few months ago, and was expecting to see all sorts of cool stuff. I wasn't disappointed in that respect...I did see lots of cool stuff. Was it worth the $24.95 a month I now had to pay? No. Maybe, again $25 a year. But all in all I find the Internet to be EXTREMELY valuable. Where else can I go to find 200 zealots who collect classic computers to get information about a particularly obscure piece of hardware and get an answer to my questions usually within 24 hours? I can get technical documentation for the stuff I use at work, including application notes, hardware references, troubleshooting information, etc. whenever I want, 24 hours a day, and I don't have to wait on hold for 30 minutes to an hour, and its free. Sure I would prefer to talk to some live dolt, simply because its easier to just have the answer given to me rather than having to search it out, and my time is better spent doing work rather than scrounging around for information, although admittedly the on-hold wait and the time I would spend searching out the info I need is a wash. I can buy/sell stuff on the net and have a world-wide marketbase. I can do this by paying $24.95 a month. Try doing that before the Internet became a viable public medium. You'd have to be a large corporation or have lots of money. I can send data, programs, pictures, basically information to colleagues anywhere in the world practically and do it simply by just e-mailing it to them. Before this would require one side to have a BBS or both parties to schedule a time to connect to each other with modems to do the exchange. I can dig up information on zip codes, find maps to places I need to go, find restaurants, find people, getting shipping costs for packages I send out, I can e-mail a diatribe to the President of the United States of America. Basically, it is truly information at your fingertips (almost) instantly. Constantly updated, constantly growing, alive. I just realized this has practically nothing to do with classic computers and I apologize. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From idavis at comland.com Fri Jul 18 13:26:33 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970718182633.00903ac0@mail.comland.com > At 12:48 PM 7/18/97 -0500, Cord Coslor wrote: >Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really >not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of >old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 >software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari >disutibutors that do this? > >Thanks, > >CORD > There are a number of businesses still selling atari stuff. As far as the company is concerned, only the coin-op still remains under the Atari name. Check out www.myatari.com or email Rick Detlefsen (74766.1561@CompuServe.COM). They both have a pretty good selection, and I know Rick is pretty cheap. I work about 5 mins from his place, and it makes a wonderful lunch to go over there and browse through all of his stuff, and pick up goodies. The atari vendor and developer faq is at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/atari-8-bit/vendev/ If you can't get to it, I might be able to round up a copy and email it. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 18 13:55:15 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128, etc... Message-ID: <199707181455_MC2-1B1F-D99A@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu > The bulk of the information regarding the B-128 was 'loaned' to the Chicago B-128 Users Group by Commodore (wow, that's a change, eh?) a few years back, I have no idea what had ever happened to the group or where the B-128 info now resides.< Yes, that was quite a deal. The Chicago group seems to have showed up on Commodore's doorstep just as Commodore was getting ready to trash all the B series stuff, and the user group ended up with it all. I wasn't aware it was a "loan", but I guess at this point, nobody is going to show up on their doorstep and ask for it back. If only the rest of the Commodore user group community had showed such drive; we might not KNOW where the rights to the 8-bit stuff ended up, but also we might collectively have owned them! I don't know what happened to the group either. In 1990, before I got a B-128, I wrote and got info, and directed to them everyone I ran across that had a B-series question. Then I wrote in early 1993 to check in on the progress of the group for a newsletter article, and got nothing-- no returned letter, no response. I wrote a second letter a few months later (in case the Chicago post office had lost the first) and still got nothing. I tried again after I got my B-128, and again, nothing. I think basically the "group" was one guy in Chicago and a number of out of town members, domestically and internationally. I suspect as interest in the B series waned, the guy got tired of it and just quit. Still, upon receiving inquiries he might at least have sent out thanks-for-your-letter-but-the-group-doesn't-exist-any-more responses. Postage couldn't have been THAT much. Course, he may have gotten hit by a beer truck, for all I know. (Address was 4102 N. Odell, Norridge, IL. 60635; I probably have the head guy's name somewhere.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 18 14:17:00 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: <199707181517_MC2-1B22-4CEE@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this?< Atari was purchased by someone else and dissolved as an independent company. No clue if the successors have any inventory, but I suspect I know where their leftover cartridges went. An outfit called O'Shea, Ltd. has one million, three hundred thousand atari video game cartridges (!), and is selling them for 80 cents apiece. They claim they have 50 different titles, but I only see about 40 listed; pretty evenly divided between 7800 series cartridges and 2600 cartridges. These people seem to sell mostly in bulk (most of their different items are available only by the case), but there's no such notation with respect to the Atari cartridges. I've never done business with them, and I frankly don't know what they'd do if you asked for (say) one copy each of ten different titles. But might be worth a try if you want to round out your Atari cartridge collection. One the internet, they're at http://www.oshealtd.com/ E-mail is billh@oshealtd.com Phone is 816-531-1177 Address is on West 47th Street in Kansas City. and I'm at Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 18 14:57:22 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals (was Axe to Grind) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d0ca5c.528600@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 18 Jul 97 13:02:29 UT, you wrote: % % In the US, call 1-800-THE-SHACK and give them the catalog number and describe %the part. Unfortunately, neither Radio Shack's nor Tandy's Web site has this %parts availability information (at least I couldn't find it). Have a credit %card handy. Where can we get a list of catalog numbers of the various products for the various models. I'm waiting for my M4 and wouold like to have at least some technical manuals (so that I can rip apart the machine). Ben From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Fri Jul 18 15:43:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! Mike ---------- From: Cord Coslor To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Atari still around? Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:48PM Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this? Thanks, CORD //*===================================================================== ++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================* // From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jul 18 12:00:10 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Atari still around? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707182100.RAA26691@mail.cgocable.net> I had to jump in! :) Mike, are you talking about the Tandon as in "Tandem"? :) Is that person who now owns this JTS is american or not? I still waiting to see how good JTS are or still junk. I knew Tandon drives used to be reasonably good drive but WD jumped in and screwed it. Thanks. Jason D. > Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. > Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who > used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI > INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! > Mike From jrice at texoma.net Fri Jul 18 16:06:19 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals (was Axe to Grind) References: <33d0ca5c.528600@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33CFDACA.B92F8E46@texoma.net> Benedict Chong wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 97 13:02:29 UT, you wrote: > > % > % In the US, call 1-800-THE-SHACK and give them the catalog > number and describe > %the part. Unfortunately, neither Radio Shack's nor Tandy's Web site > has this > %parts availability information (at least I couldn't find it). Have a > credit > %card handy. > > Where can we get a list of catalog numbers of the various products for > > the various models. I'm waiting for my M4 and wouold like to have at > least some technical manuals (so that I can rip apart the machine). > > Ben Send a e-mail to Tandy customer service. You can get the address from www.support.tandy.com and ask them for a catalog number listing. I did and got a very complete list for the M100. James From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 18 16:23:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals Message-ID: <199707182123.AA12233@world.std.com> A while back I offerd up a very complete set of docs(and extras) for the TRS80 m1/EI and very likely I'd take less than tandy would. Allison From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 18 19:00:10 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Dan and Joanne Tucker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: SPARCStation 1 mb/chassis/ps Message-ID: <199707190000.TAA04431@xnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970718/3112aaaf/attachment.ksh From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 18 20:54:52 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:28:59 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger help!?!?! In-Reply-To: <199707190000.TAA04431@xnet.com> Message-ID: I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" -- I think these are the three common types of loading procedures. I am sure this tape is machine language, and am wondering if there are some special loading procedures for machine language, or this Frogger tape in particular. I have been successful in loading the other tapes with it, which are BASIC programs. On Frogger, I get the proper 'beeps' back that it is reading the tape and then errors that the manual says are bus and serial inteference that the tape may be faulty. I am wondering if this might also be due to an inproper loading procedure. Can any of you help me out!! Thanks in advance! CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 18 22:01:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger help!?!?! References: Message-ID: <33D02E17.27B1@rain.org> Cord Coslor wrote: > > I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of > Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some > problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the > manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get > errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" > A quick look at one of the Atari books indicates that after using the correct load type (sometimes determined from trial and error!), the speaker should beep once. After that, press play on the cassette recorder and again press enter. At that point, the cassette should start to load and you should be able to hear the data through your TV speaker. According to one of the cassette programs I have, if you have trouble loading the first program on the cassette, rewind the cassette all the way. Set the cassette counter to 000, then fast forward to 002 or 003 and CLOAD from that point. I suspect the idea behind the above procedure is to get past the tape leader before trying to CLOAD. I might add the cassette those instructions came from is PDI's "Word Search: Geography (Atari Basic)." Any errors at this point would probably point to a damaged tape or tape drive. From idavis at comland.com Fri Jul 18 22:11:00 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger help!?!?! Message-ID: <199707190311.WAA28291@ds9.comland.com> At 08:54 PM 7/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of >Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some >problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the >manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get >errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" >-- I think these are the three common types of loading procedures. I am >sure this tape is machine language, and am wondering if there are some Cord, Take the Basic cartridge out, and hold the Start button down when turning the machine on. This will give the beep to hit play on the cassette player, then hit enter and it will load. This is how you load a machine language program on the atari from cassette. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the idavis@comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 18 22:42:37 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger... Isaac: In-Reply-To: <199707190311.WAA28291@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: Isaac: Thanks a ton for your help on the Frogger cassette for the Atari 400. I sure appreciate it and just wanted the others to know as well. Thanks also to Marvin who replied with some tips as well. Thanks guys, I really appreciate it. To the others, sorry for the space take-up, but I just want to reiterate that we shouldn't take this group for granted. Being a part of this really is a privelege!! I mean that, because where else can you ask both very technical and simple questions, and receive a reply from at least two or three people in half and hour or less? In the future, I recommend sending private e-mail to those that respond to your questions giving thanks. So often I receive and aswer to a question, print it out, and go on to my next e-mail message... and don't ever let the sender even know I received his help, or appreciated it. Anyway, thanks to everyone out there!! CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > At 08:54 PM 7/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of > >Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some > >problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the > >manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get > >errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" > >-- I think these are the three common types of loading procedures. I am > >sure this tape is machine language, and am wondering if there are some > Cord, > Take the Basic cartridge out, and hold the Start button down when > turning the machine on. This will give the beep to hit play on the cassette > player, then hit enter and it will load. This is how you load a machine > language program on the atari from cassette. Hope this helps. > Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the > idavis@comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List > indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > > From ampage at geocities.com Fri Jul 18 23:07:49 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Atari still around? References: Message-ID: <33D03D95.58701B03@geocities.com> Sure Atari is still around. It was split into two seperate companies in 1984: Atari Games ( http://www.atarigames.com ) makes the coin-op games and Atari Corp. ( http://www.atari.com ) makes the home stuff. Atari Corp. recently merged with JTS. As for who "owns" JTS, It is traded on the AMEX with 60% of its shares on the market, so no one has a majority. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jul 19 09:09:15 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> i enjoy reading what others have acquired over the weekends so i thought i might add mine also. there was a hamfest saturday morning so i went and picked up a 30meg rll drive; a copy ][ pc option board which seems to copy just about anything. is that correct? the laugh of the day was some guy selling an apple ][+ with two drives, joystick and box of software for $300 i think i had met this guy before at a previous hamfest; claiming to have known steve wozniak personally and did blue boxing with the steves! yea, right! i think that's the same ][+ he was trying to sell then. i also picked up something called a mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the aquarius would be welcome. david From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sat Jul 19 10:20:30 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: That "Thing" in my garage Message-ID: <199707191520.LAA19818@wincom.net> Spring having arrived here in the wilds of Canada, I moved some stuff and got close enough to that thing I was given last fall to read the labels on it. The box is a little bigger than a legal two drawer filing cabinet, and weighs a couple of hundred pounds. There are three tags with "M.A.I. Basic 4 Information Systems, each with a different model number... #9152 upgrade, # 610, and #1321. There is also a tag saying that in event of power failure the batteries are good for four hours! The cabinet contains a backplane and several plug-in boards. Does annyone have any idea of what this is? Cheers Charlie Fox From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jul 19 12:50:06 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Computer Advances Message-ID: <199707191816.LAA15369@mx2.u.washington.edu> > When I first got onto the net, the first thing I found out was that it is > most useful for e-mail. That's about all I use it for, except looking for people who sell oddball parts. I tried IRC, I tried Usenet, Usenet I use, for classified ads. I tried a couple > other things, and eventually I found myself paying $19.95 a month for > e-mail. btw, My ISP will sell time (so many hours) which will carry over from month to month. $30 will buy 30 hours, which lasts a *long* time with an offline e-mail reader. Some charge, say $7/month for e-mail only. Ask. > But all in all I find the Internet to be EXTREMELY valuable. Where else > can I go to find 200 zealots who collect classic computers to get > information about a particularly obscure piece of hardware and get an > answer to my questions usually within 24 hours? > I can e-mail a diatribe to the President of the United States of America. ...and get put on the FBI's secret list. > Basically, it is truly information at your fingertips (almost) instantly. > Constantly updated, constantly growing, alive. Sure. For me, too. But how many newbies want -- or need -- all that info, or want to acquire the necessary skills? I think, after visiting the Lego page, nakedgirls.com and looking at trucks, many users cast the internet aside with the rest of their toys (and that was my point). Businesses, however -- such as mine -- find a real use for the communications / information. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 19 14:22:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: That "Thing" in my garage In-Reply-To: <199707191520.LAA19818@wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jul 19, 97 11:20:30 am Message-ID: <9707191822.AA25939@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1000 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970719/021edbd4/attachment.ksh From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sat Jul 19 14:04:35 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: That "Thing" in my garage Message-ID: <199707191904.PAA06205@wincom.net> At 11:22 AM 7/19/97 -0800, you wrote: >> Spring having arrived here in the wilds of Canada, I moved some >> stuff and got close enough to that thing I was given last fall to read the >> labels on it. The box is a little bigger than a legal two drawer filing >> cabinet, and weighs a couple of hundred pounds. There are three tags with >> "M.A.I. Basic 4 Information Systems, each with a different model number... >> #9152 upgrade, # 610, and #1321. There is also a tag saying that in event of >> power failure the batteries are good for four hours! >> The cabinet contains a backplane and several plug-in boards. >> Does annyone have any idea of what this is? > >It sounds like you've got the main hunk of a Basic 4 system there. >These are minicomputers that were sold with special-purpose software >- accounting, doctor's office, etc. - for small business environments. > >Is it possible that there's a hard drive (likely 8" or 10.5") somewhere >in the box? Any tape drive? How many DB-25's on the back for terminals? > >Tim. > > There are 16 db-25's on the back, also two drives about the same size as the computer, the only one with a manufacturers label is Century Data Systems, Model T-80A. It came from a municipal office. When the fellow said he had got a new computer and asked if I wanted the old one, I thought he meant something like an XT! Next time I will ask. There was also a Calcomp 1041 plotter, which runs the test plot, but so far refuses to talk to my 386. Cheers Charlie Fox From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jul 19 15:02:38 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Apple /// problem Message-ID: <199707192002.QAA14391@unix.aardvarkol.com> Would anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing a problem with my Apple ///...it does the following: 1) the only disks it will boot are the disks for the Apple ][+ emulation, the CP/M 2.2 diskette for the Softcard ///, and the 'Apple /// Dealer Diagnostic' diskette. All other diskettes give a blank screen, though I have two full sets of the Apple /// systems disks. 2) The diagnostic diskette keeps reporting a RAM Map failure when I try to run a RAM test, on either the 5V or 12V settings, and it then asks me for the amount of RAM in the machine. No matter which choice I've given, it just goes back to the same error. As far as I know, it is a 128k machine with the RAM daughtercard below the keyboard. The amount of RAM was gotten from the factory sticker next to the PSU on the bottom of the machine. 3) Of the diskettes that will boot, once booted, the machine runs fine, including being able to boot Apple ][ DOS 3.3 and being able to run Wordstar under CP/M 2.2. Any help someone can provide as to trouble shooting this would be greatly appreciated since my experience with Apple machines is quite limited. The machine has a Monitor ///, Disk II for the Apple ///, Softcard ///, and a Silentype printer. It would appear that Apple at least did some kind of work on the machine at one point as it has an extended warranty sticker on the bottom from Apple, with the additional 1 year ending on 08/06/83. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jul 19 16:35:20 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Apple /// problem In-Reply-To: <199707192002.QAA14391@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <199707200135.VAA19855@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Jeff! The apple will give you problems unless you fix that memory problem. I think the cover takes off from bottom to expose the board, push all socketed chips. That will make a crunching sound. Take off the memory daughter board and check to see if these memory chips are socketed as well as motherboard's memory. 64k x 1bit chips are so cheap and plentiful, get them in matched set, no need to be apple marked. :) 200ns is fine! :) Maybe the bad memory gives problems with the CP/M side. Not sure... I have only seen /// once in person and I did not use it. Heard that case is impossible heavy! Jason D. Big snip! > Would anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing a problem > with my Apple ///...it does the following: > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ampage at geocities.com Sat Jul 19 20:32:13 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares (was Commodore B-128) References: Message-ID: <33D16A9D.70EAB05A@geocities.com> What was left of Escom was consolidated under the name Commodore. Commodore is now a Dutch computer company ( http://www.commodore.net ) and probably owns the righsts to all the 8-bit stuff. From BNICALEK at aol.com Sat Jul 19 22:12:53 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: How Do I Unsubscribe? Message-ID: <970719231006_1691695289@emout02.mail.aol.com> I would like to unsubscribe and transfer to another e-mail address. How do I do this? Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From MicroAge97 at aol.com Sat Jul 19 23:42:57 1997 From: MicroAge97 at aol.com (MicroAge97@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Apple /// problem Message-ID: <970720004255_-1878507983@emout05.mail.aol.com> My friend's apple /// has the same problem. i had to have a chip replaced several times. now it broke again but it's been so long that no tech will touch it. dave From dlw at neosoft.com Sat Jul 19 18:51:18 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions In-Reply-To: <199707181517_MC2-1B22-4CEE@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <199707200449.XAA26425@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, LDOS or some other and a comm program? Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sun Jul 20 08:02:37 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions Message-ID: <199707201302.JAA22377@wincom.net> At 11:51 PM 7/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It >works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the >other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another >time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up >and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the >problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and >then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them >so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette >based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have >to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm >thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a >lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. >Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, >LDOS or some other and a comm program? > >Thanks. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@neosoft.com >http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > > When I turned on my Model 4 with no disks I got "CASSETTE?" on the screen. The lower drive light stays on. Have you checked to see if brightness is turned up on the monitor? Cheers Charlie Fox From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sun Jul 20 08:25:46 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions Message-ID: <199707201325.JAA23633@wincom.net> At 11:51 PM 7/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It >works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the >other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another >time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up >and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the >problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and >then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them >so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette >based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have >to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm >thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a >lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. >Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, >LDOS or some other and a comm program? > >Thanks. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@neosoft.com >http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > > CORRECTION..... Apparently I engaged my keyboard before my brain was in gear! When I turn on my Model 4 without a disk installed I get "DISKETTE?" on the screen. Sorry about that. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sun Jul 20 10:33:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions In-Reply-To: <199707200449.XAA26425@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: David: To boot a disk based system without the drives... after you turn the system on, press reset and hold drean BREAK.... it'll then boot in cassette mode. I certainly can help you out with any DOSs or software you might need. Just let me know and we'll work something out. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, David Williams wrote: > A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It > works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the > other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another > time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up > and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the > problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and > then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them > so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette > based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have > to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm > thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a > lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. > Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, > LDOS or some other and a comm program? > > Thanks. > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@neosoft.com > http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > From dlw at neosoft.com Sun Jul 20 06:33:20 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions In-Reply-To: References: <199707200449.XAA26425@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: <199707201631.LAA11383@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 20 Jul 97 at 10:33, Cord Coslor wrote: > To boot a disk based system without the drives... after you turn the > system on, press reset and hold drean BREAK.... it'll then boot in > cassette mode. Thanks! Works great. Well, one of the two systems does anyway. Both come up with the Cass? question but the monitor on one of the machines looks like the sync is off, Cass? is repeated in 3 or 4 places down the screen as is everything else it displays. I have the box open but don't see anything wrong or anything to adjust. Anyone know these and have suggestions? This box is a green screen where the other working systems are black and white, so I'd like to get this one working properly. I picked these up from a guy who had a stack of them which he wanted to turn into aquariums! They were free since he felt they were historically unimportant in the Tandy timeline. I just want to say thinks to everyone for their help. This list is invaluable in keeping my systems running! ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From cdenham at tgis.co.uk Sun Jul 20 15:26:57 1997 From: cdenham at tgis.co.uk (Christopher Denham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> References: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33d370d2.6345954@mail.tgis.co.uk> On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:09:15 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >i enjoy reading what others have acquired over the weekends so i thought i >might add mine also. > >there was a hamfest saturday morning so i went and picked up a 30meg rll >drive; a copy ][ pc option board which seems to copy just about anything. is >that correct? the laugh of the day was some guy selling an apple ][+ with two >drives, joystick and box of software for $300 i think i had met this >guy before at a previous hamfest; claiming to have known steve wozniak >personally and did blue boxing with the steves! yea, right! i think that's >the same ][+ he was trying to sell then. i also picked up something called a >mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were >intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the >aquarius would be welcome. > > >david > I also went to a hamfest but in the UK we call them radio rally's and picked up a MEMOTECH MTX512 with book for 1.50 pounds , a AMSTRAD 6128 also for 1.50 pounds ( wanted for the disk drive ) a SPECTRUM +3 for 5.00 pounds (wanted also for the disk drive ) but its all boxed and like new so to good to break up for bits a DRAGON 32 for free also boxed . But the prize find was a ZX80 with manual , building instructions and a few ZX80 news ( The newsletter for the ZX80 user club ) still got the blue keyboard and 4K rom all for 27.50 pounds .... cheers Chris Denham G4VLL From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sun Jul 20 15:45:44 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: USING classic chips (was Re: USING classic machines) Message-ID: <199707202045.WAA11997@mbox.queen.it> At 13:24 28/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, someone wrote: > Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based >hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk >hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a >personal preferance. If interested in such family of CPU's and want to use them as preference, be informed that Motorola use a 68k chip inside its GSM cellular phones (like 7000's and 8000's) I found this info on http://www.ibt.dk/morten/friends/hardware.htm Ciao! ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jul 20 16:44:52 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: <33d370d2.6345954@mail.tgis.co.uk> References: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970720224452.00699a00@post.keme.co.uk> I didnt do to bad. Got a C128d Plastic for 4 Pounds, A Cambridge Menmory Calculator (Sinclair) 50p, Jupter Ace 1.50, and a few C64 and Plus 4 carts. Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From rcini at msn.com Sun Jul 20 17:28:30 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:57:22 GMT Benedict Chong wrote: >>Where can we get a list of catalog numbers of the various products for the various models. I'm waiting for my M4 and wouold like to have at least some technical manuals (so that I can rip apart the machine).<< I don't think that the master book in the Radio Shack store has a description of the product next to the catalog number. You would need a kind sole here with an old R/S catalog to give you the number. You could also ask the operator on 1-800-THE-SHACK. Just give her the model of the computer and say that you don't know the catalog number. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From rcini at msn.com Sun Jul 20 17:20:26 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:09:19 -0500 (CDT) starling@umr.edu wrote: >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in any quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. >>I could see purchasing the rights to the C=64 and setting them free as public domain. Perhaps raise the money to do it by selling "shares" of ownership in the rights to C= enthusiasts. That way, emulators can use original C= ROM code without copyright infringement, and "Build Your Own Commie 64" kits could be a possibility. Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd belong to the computing community.<< I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. >>I don't see much of a point to owning the rights to such things in a for-proffit mode. Except maybe just bragging rights...<< Mmmmm. What's wrong with a little bragging?? >>"Hey, baby... I own the exclusive rights to manufacture the Commodore Plus 4. Want to go back to my place for a drink?"<< ;-) Sounds like Austin Powers! ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Jul 20 22:22:12 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:09:19 -0500 (CDT) starling@umr.edu wrote: > > >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? > > Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a > reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in any > quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. I agree. Why would anyone pay ANY money for shares if they knew that everything would ultimately become public domain. > >>I could see purchasing the rights to the C=64 and setting them free as > public domain. Perhaps raise the money to do it by selling "shares" of > ownership in the rights to C= enthusiasts. That way, emulators can use > original C= ROM code without copyright infringement, and "Build Your Own > Commie 64" kits could be a possibility. Or, even more attractive, build your own C=65 kits (or build your own 900 Unix machine, etc.etc.) > Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd belong to the computing > community.<< > > I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a > slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. The keyword being licenses here. No one asks anyone on here to work for free and likewise, no one should be expected to shell out their hard earned cash for the "greater computing good." Sure, Commodore went bye-bye a LONG time ago but the rights to some of that stuff still won't be cheap... > >>I don't see much of a point to owning the rights to such things in a > for-proffit mode. Except maybe just bragging rights...<< > > Mmmmm. What's wrong with a little bragging?? I don't see much point in buying something and then making it public domain except maybe for throwing your money away. (Unless of course, if we're talking $1 a share here) > >>"Hey, baby... I own the exclusive rights to manufacture the Commodore > Plus 4. Want to go back to my place for a drink?"<< > > ;-) Sounds like Austin Powers! > > ------------------------ > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCPS Windows 95/Networking Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 21 01:15:51 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I managed to get at least of the necessary pieces to have a usable TI-99/4a although I think I've don't have the proper pieces for video, since all I get is B&W. I'm wondering why of the six cartridges I've got three work just fine. Two don't work at all, and one "Parsec" works if I fiddle with the tuner on the TV after it's running, yet the initial screen that lets you choose BASIC, or the game is normal. Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental conditions effect this? Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 21 00:51:39 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Atari 400 / Odyssey ??? Message-ID: Howdy: Today I'm looking for anyone that might have ANY old Atari 400 cassettes and cartridge games or other programs. Right now, I don't have a disk drive for this system, but am looking for one as well. Second, I am looking to buy an Atari 800xx system? Let me know if you have one for sale. Finally, looking for an old Odyssey game system. Any and all models are on my wish list... including the original Odyssey 'pong' unit, and the more modern models of the cartridge game console unit. If you have any of the above for sale, PLEASe let me know, and your price you would offer it to me for. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 21 11:08:19 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... Message-ID: <9706218695.AA869508691@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? > > > > Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a > > reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in > > any quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. > > I agree. Why would anyone pay ANY money for shares if they knew that > everything would ultimately become public domain. For the same reason that they put money in collecting tins - not just for charities but for other organisations - it's a good cause. I'll subscribe! > > Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd > belong to the computing > > community.<< > > > > I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a > > slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. > > The keyword being licenses here. No one asks anyone on here to work for > free and likewise, no one should be expected to shell out their hard > earned cash for the "greater computing good." Sure, Commodore went > bye-bye a LONG time ago but the rights to some of that stuff still won't > be cheap... No-one should be expected to, but I think you'll find more people are prepared to than you expect. I'm prepared to - I get my money's worth anyway (technical data for my several PETs, VICs and my 64), and I would be quite happy to see the stuff go PD thereafter. Returning briefly to the Commodore B series, how do the 8200 series machines fit in? I see old documents refering to the B and P series, and older ones refering to the 500 and 700 series (I think respectively), but the machines I've actually seen from that period are called 8296. There were two models that I've seen - the 8296D (with internal disk drives) and the 8296 (without). The motherboard is identical - two banks of 64k RAM, (I think) a high speed (2MHz?) 6502, and a couple of chips which you unsolder and move to adjacent positions for 40 column mode. The case is similar to the 8032SK - rounded, plasticky PET case with large green screen and separate keyboard, but returns to the edge connectors for the IEEE488 and user ports. The internal disk drive - which I have now added to my 8296 to make a D machine - is an 8252 (?) which plugs into the IEEE488 internally. Ironically, 8296 had a linear power supply and 8296D a switchmode! So how do the 8296 and the B/P machines relate? Anyone know? Also, how do you do the bank switching to get at the full 96K of RAM? (I think you lose 32K to the screen - very inefficient!) Philip. From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 21 09:25:25 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721102525.006a3fb0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 06:15 AM 7/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, >I managed to get at least of the necessary pieces to have a usable TI-99/4a >although I think I've don't have the proper pieces for video, since all I >get is B&W. > >I'm wondering why of the six cartridges I've got three work just fine. Two >don't work at all, and one "Parsec" works if I fiddle with the tuner on the >TV after it's running, yet the initial screen that lets you choose BASIC, >or the game is normal. > >Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is >the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental >conditions effect this? > > Thanks, > Zane I currently have 59 TI-99/4a cartridges, and I only remember finding one that I couldn't get to work. If you havn't, try cleaning the cartridge contacts with alcohol and a cotton swab. The unit's cartridge port may need cleaning as well. I have an older black & silver 99/4a and have heard that some of the later beige ones included some kind of lock-out by TI to prevent 3rd party cartridges from working. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 21 09:47:04 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: USING classic chips (was Re: USING classic machines) In-Reply-To: <199707202045.WAA11997@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <28F68FC57407@ifrsys.com> I can attest to this! I once had a prototype GSM Class I phone (which nobody makes anymore, BTW), and there were no less than three 684xx processors in it. Wish I still had that thing-- Jeff > > >> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, someone wrote: > > > Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based > >hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk > >hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a > >personal preferance. > > If interested in such family of CPU's and want to use them as preference, be > informed that Motorola use a 68k chip inside its GSM cellular phones (like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 7000's and 8000's) > > I found this info on > http://www.ibt.dk/morten/friends/hardware.htm > > > Ciao! > > > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? > ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? > ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? > ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? > ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > > From transit at primenet.com Mon Jul 21 10:03:44 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: <33C3D6DD.61DA@rain.org> Message-ID: I know a lot of these mailing lists are gatewayed to a newsgroup in a special bit.listserv hierarchy. That might me a good idea for this group, as the volume of messages here as gotten too unwieldy for e-mail. (I have over a thousand messages unread from this group alone). I'll be out of town for a week, so I'll need to temporarily unsubscribe (although I really hate to miss anything). But, i'll be back. . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From starling at umr.edu Mon Jul 21 10:12:52 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jul 20, 97 10:15:51 pm Message-ID: <199707211512.KAA13086@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is > the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental > conditions effect this? Assuming that TI didn't make their cartridges with EPROMs (which would be subject to bit-rot), I'd suspect the connectors on the cartridge are dirty & therefore not making good contact with the socket. Video cartridges with normal ROM chips on them are pretty much indestructable it seems, so I doubt that the cartridges are bad. Opinion varies on how to clean cartridge contacts, but the two most popular ways seem to be: 1) pencil eraser and 2) alcohol & cotton swab. I prefer the pencil eraser as long as I'm able to get at the contacts well enough with it. Just be sure you get off all the pencil eraser particles off the card and be sure you use a PINK eraser, not the abrasive white (pen ink) kind. You might also try using some canned air or something to clean the cartridge socket on the TI. They make video-game socket cleaning pads for like Nintendo machines that you could probably modify to work in the TI. I really can't remember how TI cartridges are constructed, so it may be a big pain in the arse to clean the buggers. * From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 21 10:35:56 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? Message-ID: <199707211535.AA16442@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I for one hope not. The few groups I write to that are a a constant source > of junk mail from the spammers that parse them. > > Allison I have a cure for this! telnet localhost 19 | mail spammer@wherever.com Let it run for awhile, then ^C it after about 10 minutes... From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Mon Jul 21 11:37:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: Yes! Sorry about the misspelling! The merger was done by ATARI giving a "bridge loan" to JTS. ---------- From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Atari still around? Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:00PM I had to jump in! :) Mike, are you talking about the Tandon as in "Tandem"? :) Is that person who now owns this JTS is american or not? I still waiting to see how good JTS are or still junk. I knew Tandon drives used to be reasonably good drive but WD jumped in and screwed it. Thanks. Jason D. > Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. > Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who > used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI > INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! > Mike From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jul 21 12:15:51 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> Here's my update for the stuff I'm selling on AuctionWeb. There are a couple fairly rare items here. I just want to clear stuff out and get what I can for them so they will sell for the high bid. I recently sold a few things there really cheap, like in the $1 - $5 range for new Apple parts so I think overall the prices are down during the Summer. Anyway, here's the list. Just go to the link shown to bid and get more info. And drop me an email if you have a question beyond what's in the listing. Note the Apple Lisa Mouse and Apple III drive! **Note: I mistakenly listed this as an Apple II mouse when, from a couple emails, I was informed that it's actually an Apple Lisa Mouse. There is a picture at the listing. Old Apple Lisa Mouse! *** PHOTO *** Current bid: $15.50 Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 16:45:54 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=zjz242 Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** Current bid: $7.50 Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:43:32 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=nwr8950 Atari 520ST System With Floppy & More! Current bid: $8.50 Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:49:56 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hrc0869 Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Expansion Card Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:35:51 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=eix4345 Timex Sinclair 1000 w/16K Module/Software Current bid: $6.50 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:46:22 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ytc65252 Brand New Apple IIe Power Supply! Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:59:52 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ipi2331 Macintosh SE Power Supply! Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 17:35:06 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lxm4715 Brand New Apple IIe Replacement Keyboard! Current bid: $5.51 Auction ends on: 07/27/97, 19:00:44 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qsa5622 Atari Trackball Controller **photo** Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 07/27/97, 20:34:18 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=gsi241 Also, I have lots more computer stuff in the garage that has to go. Here's a brief list. I'll be listing everything on the auction in the next month or so. Apple IIe (3 ea) Apple IIc with monitor and power supply Apple IIe Color Monitor Apple Imagewriter II printer (3 ea) Macintosh 512k Pile of new Apple service parts for Mac plus, Mac II, Apple IIe, IIc, Imagewriter, more including power supplies, main boards, disk drives and more. Apple joysticks and paddle controllers Commodore 1702 color monitor Commodore 1541 drive (4 ea) Commodore 64 in box Piles of Commodore power supplies and cables, joysticks, etc Thanks for reading! From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 21 12:35:13 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <199707211335_MC2-1B45-3DE7@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:SUPRDAVE@aol.com >i also picked up something called a mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the aquarius would be welcome. < I'll send you e-mail on this, but for the benefit of anyone else: I happen to maintain the FAQ on the Aquarius, and on the "add-on" computer keyboard for the Mattel Intellivision, known as the ECS. Since you have the manual, some of the information in the FAQ will be duplicative, but some could be very useful. For instance, depending on the package you got, the Aquarius does not come with the cable needed to hook it to a cassette recorder. From the (brief) description in the manual, the cable SOUNDS like the Radio Shack cable-- five-pin DIN connector on one end, and plugs for the cassette EAR, MIC and REMote connectors on the other. Unfortunately, the Aquarius cable is NOT wired the same as the Radio Shack cable; and, the manual doesn't supply a diagram of any Aquarius ports to allow you to easily figure it out yourself! The FAQ explains how to make your own. Also explained is how to attach a serial printer (either a DB-25, or a Radio Shack printer intended for use with the CoCo) to the Aquarius. (The Aquarius printer port is quite unique: it's a mini-stereo socket-- just three separate lines.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 21 12:35:10 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan Message-ID: <199707211335_MC2-1B45-3DE6@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >I managed to get at least of the necessary pieces to have a usable TI-99/4a although I think I've don't have the proper pieces for video, since all I get is B&W.< It's probably not worth your effort to mess with a malfunctioning /4a; get another one. I see these units ALL THE TIME in the $3-$4 range, and I don't even pick them up because I already have more than I'll ever need. The trick with the TI is to find the "expansion box", particularly one well populated with cards; that adds (with the right cards) 32K memory, 1 or 2 disk drives, and serial/parallel ports. (Obviously, you can expand it more if you want to get serious about the TI, but this is the "plain vanilla" disk system.) Then you can run disk-based software without dealing with cartridges all the time. Still, you can have some fun with a non-disk system. The cartridges can allow you to do serious work and save the output to tape. There is also an adventure cartridge that contains the basic parser, etc., and then the different adventures can be loaded from tape. A nice setup for a small-memory computer. By the way, your cable might be your problem on having a monochrome picture. Many of the old home computers put out a monochrome signal on one of the pins, and a color composite on another. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com I'm wondering why of the six cartridges I've got three work just fine. Two don't work at all, and one "Parsec" works if I fiddle with the tuner on the TV after it's running, yet the initial screen that lets you choose BASIC, or the game is normal. Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental conditions effect this? Thanks, Zane < From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Mon Jul 21 14:25:18 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> from "Greg Mast" at Jul 21, 97 10:15:51 am Message-ID: <199707211925.PAA29042@hiway1.exit109.com> > Also, I have lots more computer stuff in the garage that has to go. > Here's a brief list. I'll be listing everything on the auction in the > next month or so. > > Pile of new Apple service parts for Mac plus, Mac II, Apple IIe, IIc, > Imagewriter, more including power supplies, main boards, disk drives and > more. Greg, I'm trying to find a cheap motherboard for a Mac+ I picked up. Any chance of dealing with you directly or do you only deal through the auctions? Thanks... <<>> From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jul 21 10:32:57 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <199707211925.PAA29042@hiway1.exit109.com> References: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> from "Greg Mast" at Jul 21, 97 10:15:51 am Message-ID: <199707211932.PAA25349@mail.cgocable.net> Hi John! Is that yours called Mac Plus? Well, what's the problem? I can offer you info if I know what you having problems with it. I own Mac Plus also but not using because I have problem finding a cheap tube, the yoke is not that important as I have it and bare 800k with frame (both drive/frame not too vital as I have external drive). Someone got the mac stripped of parts, I was rebuilding it. Jason D. > Greg, > > I'm trying to find a cheap motherboard for a Mac+ I picked up. Any chance > of dealing with you directly or do you only deal through the auctions? > > Thanks... <<>> > > From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 21 15:24:57 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > > > > > I for one hope not. The few groups I write to that are a a constant source > > of junk mail from the spammers that parse them. > > I have a cure for this! > telnet localhost 19 | mail spammer@wherever.com > Let it run for awhile, then ^C it after about 10 minutes... That only works if the spammer uses a real address. Most don't. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jul 21 15:03:38 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive Message-ID: <199707212015.NAA16283@mx4.u.washington.edu> A customer's Atari 720 K 3 1/2" floppy drive died. Anyone have one? According to him, this takes standard IBM DSDD 720K drives, but not Tandy (I guess, because of the strange data cable.) Thanks, manney@nwohio.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 21 16:21:25 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's Message-ID: <9707212021.AA29492@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970721/6b7a5eae/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 21 15:58:25 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Anyone got games/etc that I can poke into ODT? In-Reply-To: <9707212021.AA29492@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: I'm getting bored, my 11/23 has no o/s yet. Anyone know of a game/editor/SOMETHING! I can poke into ODT so it can do something? And I can't get the V6 Unix images booted under E11, so I can't poke in the kernel (Besides, it'd need an RL02) From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jul 21 17:59:43 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Just got Xerox 8/16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can anyone point me to some web resources on the Xerox 8/16? Alta-vista wouldn't match anything to "Xerox 8/16" and gave me a page mentioning Xerox parc updated on 8/16/96 for "Xerox" "8/16" :-( It looks like I have all the disks/docs, the disk drive unit and a printer. thanks srw From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 21 17:19:08 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: CoCo disks Message-ID: <199707212219.SAA11755@unix.aardvarkol.com> I found what looks to be a few intersting disks today, though at the moment I can't check to see what's on them or anything. They are all for the CoCo though, and all Tandy-labled disks in Tandy jackets still...and some are even for OS-9. They are: Flightsim I, (c) 1984 Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 C Compiler for OS-9 Systems (version 01), (c) 1983 Color Disk EDTASM (version 01), (c) 1983 Ghana Bwana, (c) 1984 OS-9 Profile, (c) 1984 Biosphere for OS-9, (c) 1985 At least now I've got a few CoCo disks to try once I finally find a disk controller for my III! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 21 18:37:12 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: V6 Unix and E11 Message-ID: I can't get the V6 Unix images to boot under E11. Any special differences between it an V7? (Other than my real PDP can't do V7) From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jul 21 20:47:34 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: CoCo disks Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970721214732.00a8d490@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Jeff Hellige happened to blather: > I found what looks to be a few intersting disks today, though at the >moment I can't check to see what's on them or anything. They are all for >the CoCo though, and all Tandy-labled disks in Tandy jackets still...and >some are even for OS-9. They are: > Flightsim I, (c) 1984 This is one of the original flight simulators that came out for several 8 & 16-bit machines that IIRC the copyright was bought up by none other than Micro$hark. > Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 This is a GUI for OS-9... it was rather interesting [and I've heard useful with a hard drive], but *extremely* slow with floppies. > OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 Standard USCD P-code compiler... interesting thing is you could compile programs larger than 64K (max memory for a CoCo 1/2) out-of-box. > C Compiler for OS-9 Systems (version 01), (c) 1983 IIRC, *almost* standard K&R C... methinks there were a few *very minor* differences that were easy to code around, but non-standard nonetheless. > Color Disk EDTASM (version 01), (c) 1983 This can be fudged to use the 80x24 screen of the CoCo3 (quite nicely, I might add... as I used it quite often like this) but the line-editor was still weird. There are patches available to make this assembler support the Hitachi 6309 processor, which is a M6809 workalike -with enhancements.- > Ghana Bwana, (c) 1984 > OS-9 Profile, (c) 1984 > Biosphere for OS-9, (c) 1985 Never played with any of these... others will have to take the ball and run here. > At least now I've got a few CoCo disks to try once I finally find a >disk controller for my III! Uhhh, I might have one *for trade*. Presently, I have two available working Disto MC-1 [Mini-Controller 1] boards, but without getting into that entire pirating issue *again*, I have no available DOS's for them. I am looking for a shareware RS-DOS clone that I could burn into e-prom for you, or I could purchase ADOS-3 or Extended ADOS-3 for you and install it. Be warned: I don't have cases for these controllers, so you'll have to run them nekkid or fudge something of your own. (The Tandy FD-500/501/502 case will work fine... but you can't buy them thru RS anymore, AFAIK.) I'll keep looking for a week or two for a DOS you can use, and let you know if you're interested. See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 21 11:32:48 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: CoCo disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970721214732.00a8d490@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On 22-Jul-97, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Flightsim I, (c) 1984 >This is one of the original flight simulators that came out for several 8 & >16-bit machines that IIRC the copyright was bought up by none other than >Micro$hark. I forget if it was Flight Simulator I or FS II that I had for the Tandy 2000 when I still was using mine. I know that in it's 640x400 x 16 color mode though it sure looked nice, especially compared to Flight Simulator on a standard PC using CGA! Even EGA didn't look near as good, with it's odder aspect ratio. >> Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 >This is a GUI for OS-9... it was rather interesting [and I've heard useful >with a hard drive], but *extremely* slow with floppies. Yes, I've seen this running, and it even looks fairly nice in low-res mode. >> OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 >Standard USCD P-code compiler... interesting thing is you could compile >programs larger than 64K (max memory for a CoCo 1/2) out-of-box. That's interesting...now if I could find a P-Card for my TI-99/4A, I could write stuff on the CoCo and run it under P-System on both the 4A and on the 5155! There's some interesting cross-platform computing... >Uhhh, I might have one *for trade*. Presently, I have two available working >Disto MC-1 [Mini-Controller 1] boards, What types of things might you be looking for in trade? >I'll keep looking for a week or two for a DOS you can use, and let you know >if you're interested. Yes, I certainly would be interested...please let me know what you come up with. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jul 21 20:56:39 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: Just got Xerox 8/16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your not going to find any web resources. Trust me, I've tried. Anyway, hat exactly are you looking for>? Are you sure you have ALL the docs? (My docs comprise 4 3 inch thick binders) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jul 21 21:04:48 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:00 2005 Subject: CoCo disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970721214732.00a8d490@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Flightsim I, (c) 1984 > >This is one of the original flight simulators that came out for several 8 & >16-bit machines that IIRC the copyright was bought up by none other than >Micro$hark. This version should probably be labelled SubLogic, which was founded by Bruce Artwick. In the late 80's, SubLogic fell on hard times, Bruce left them and started BAO (Bruce Artwick Organization.) In late 1995 (I believe) MS bought the assets of BAO and began developing MSFS themselves. BTW, MS Flight Sim (Developed at SubLogic) was the first game for the IBM PC. For more history check out: http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/CS_INFO_SERVER/ALUMNI_INFO/newsletter/v1n7/artwick.html ttfn srw - avid flightsimmer (Still using 5.1, 6.0 sucks.) From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 21 12:00:15 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: CoCo disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22-Jul-97, Scott Walde wrote: >>> Flightsim I, (c) 1984 >This version should probably be labelled SubLogic, which was founded by >Bruce Artwick. Actually, it's labled: (c) 1984 Greg Zumwalt All Rights Reserved. Licensed to Tandy Corporation It carries the Tandy catalog# 26-3108. Both versions of Flight Simulator II for the Atari 800 that I have on the other hand, the disk version for the 800 and the cartridge version for the XE, are both from SubLogic, and have Bruce's name on them. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dynasoar at mindspring.com Tue Jul 22 00:25:55 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Just got Xerox 8/16 References: Message-ID: <33D44463.7660@mindspring.com> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Your not going to find any web resources. Trust me, I've tried. Anyway, > hat exactly are you looking for>? Are you sure you have ALL the docs? > (My docs comprise 4 3 inch thick binders) > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu So true! Les is right, the docs for this machine weigh in at about 50 lbs +! I've searched and searched for web resources but there are none. I *did* find a few postings referenced in Deja News, and once in a while some one on comp.os.cpm makes a reference to a 16/8 for sale or giveaway, but there isn't much else. So I search on...there must be more than three of these machines left in the world? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jul 21 23:48:45 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ Message-ID: <33D43BAD.5080@goldrush.com> I figured I'd shoot this by you guys as I am getting closer to putting it on my web site. I am sure I will get some good criticism from you all. If you have any additions/suggestions or additional questions to include, let me know. I also plan also to add in a couple texts on disk drive usage some PET memory maps (gee there are barely any PET maps on the net!) and if I don't find a link to one, an overview of Commodore PET BASIC (applies to 64 also). (view with a monospaced font for best results) THE COMMODORE PET COMPUTER FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FILE - VERSION 1.0beta --------------------------------------------- BY LARRY ANDERSSON, COMMODORE COLLECTOR AND PET ENTHUSIAST --------------------------------------------- WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing MOS Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its microprocessor, the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in series' the first series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the modern 4000 and 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is the SuperPET. 9" display units (40 column x 25 line character only display): PET 2001series: Original PET: - Steel case - Internal 'datasette' cassette tape drive - Blue on black 9" display - Small 'calculator style' keyboard - Small shipment with 4k, most with 8k RAM - Original ROMs Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys - Upgrade ROMs - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. - many with clearer green on black displays - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) - 4.0 ROMs - molded plastic top 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. - 4.0 ROMs PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) CBM 80xx - 80 x 25 display, powers-up in upper/lower case. - buisness xx key keyboard - later versions had 64k & 96k RAM expansion board options. - 4.0 ROMs PET SP9000 SuperPET (or Micro Mainframe) - 80 x 25 display - 6809 co-processor board - 96k RAM - True RS-232 interface - Multiple charactersets (for APL, etc.) - Avalability of disk Based languages MOTHERBOARD SERIES 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ ! # ! #! ! # ! #! ! # exp ! #! exp ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! ! # ! #! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ROMS ! ! ! ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! #1 # ! #2 # ! +--------------------+ +--------------------+ 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) IEEE user tape #1 +------####-####--##-+ ! # # tape ! # # #2 ! R exp bus # ! ! A #! 2000 Series ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] ! M R B ! ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k ! O S E ! ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] +--------------------+ WHAT VERSION OF ROMS DO I HAVE ON MY PET? The PET/CBM line had three major ROM revisions as well as a few minor ones, you cannot reliably determine the ROMs by looking at the outside of the PET (unless it has a large monitor). Fortunately there is an easy way to distinguish the three various versions by just turning on the computer. Depending on how your start-up message looks you can determine the ROM version: *** COMMODORE BASIC *** - Original ROMs sometimes referred to as 2.0* ROMs. (only found in the older calculator keyboard style PETs) Occupy $C000-$FFFF ### COMMODORE BASIC ### - Commonly known as the 'Upgrade ROMs' sometimes referred to as 2.0 or 3.0 ROMs depending on who you ask. Occupy $C000-$FFFF *** COMMODORE BASIC 4.0 *** - 4.0 ROMs The only ROMs that will work on large-screen PETs. Occupy $B000-$FFFF * Some people contend that BASIC version 1.0 never made it out of beta development and the PET line started with version 2.0 ROMs... Commodore on the other hand usually refers to the 'Upgrade ROMs' as V2, or 2.0. For the sake of sanity in this FAQ I will refer to them as original and upgrade ROMs, and as for an opinion I will go with the company's numbering (which leaves V 3.0 out of the picture). WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? Original ROMs Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a while to compile them) Upgrade ROMs Many Original ROM bugs were squashed. BASIC commands and capabilities very much like the Commodore 64's. Now includes a tiny ML monitor and IEEE-488 disk operability. Easter Egg - enter WAIT 6502,x to see MICROSOFT!' displayed on the screen x number of times. 4.0 ROMs* Addition of direct Disk operation commands DLOAD, DSAVE, COPY, HEADER, etc. Ability to repeat cursor control characters by holding down keys. Reserved DOS error-channel variables: DS,DS$. Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. * The small screen-and large screen versions of these ROMs differ and some software developed for the small-screen 4.0 ROMS crash on the large screen units. This is due to the necessary changes made for the new video controller of the 12" display PETs. CAN I RUN VIC-20, 64, 128, PLUS/4, OR C-16 SOFTWARE ON MY PET? Maybe. Any program that is all BASIC that does not use hi-res graphics or sound and contains no POKES should work readily on a PET. Of course if it contains POKEs, sound commands, and Machine Language conversion will be nessasary. If it rely on more than one voice of sound, hi-res grpahics, programmable character sets or color, it may not be worth converting because those features aren't present on the PETs. NOTE: Many early VIC, 64, and Plus/4 BASIC games and programs were converted PET games. HOW DO I GET 64 (VIC, PLUS/4, ETC.) BASIC PROGRAMS ON MY PET? Unlike the later 8-bit Commodores,the PET always loads programs into the memory address they were saved at (i.e. no loading ,8 and ,8,1 as on the later machines), which means BASIC programs saved on VICs, 64s, 128s, etc, will not load in the right location on the PET to be seen by the BASIC interpreter. PET BASIC starts at location 1025 ($0401 in hex) and the later Commodore machines have different, higher starting locations. (see table x) There are a couple ways to get a BASIC program to load properly into memory, Disk Track/Sector Editors: My preferred method of conversion is using a disk track/sector editing utility to change the 'load address bytes' of the file directly on the disk. This is not an easy process to 'explain' and I hope to write it up at a later time. BASIC Line Relocation Method: Here is a way to get the BASIC editor to do it for you; of course you will need to have an upgrade ROM or later PET (which has a ML monitor) or load in a monitor for your original ROM PET first. It involves 'linking' the higher located BASIC program to a line starting in regular BASIC, when you delete that line, the editor will move your program to where it belongs in memory. 1. Enter NEW to erase any programs already in memory. 2. Enter: 0 REM 3. LOAD the program you want converted (i.e. LOAD"program name",1 for tape) 4. When loaded, enter the machine language monitor by entering SYS 1024 5. display the first part of the BASIC you first typed: M 0401 0408 6. Change the line-link to the memory location of the program to be moved; use cursor keys to move up and change the first two two-digit numbers to read: :0401 01 08 00 00 8F 00 00 00 ^^ ^^ (for a program from a 64, otherwise, see table x) 7. Press return to change the bytes then enter X to exit the monitor. 8. Type LIST, you should see the 0 REM followed by the program. 9. Enter 0 to delete line 0 which will move the BASIC to its proper place. 10. Save the program. TABLE X - Load Addresses for BASIC files: Saved under Start of BASIC Computer load load change Model/ addr. addr. bytes configuration dec. hex. to: ------------- ---- ----- ----- PET/CBM 1025 $0401 N/A VIC-20 unex. 4097 $1001 01 10 VIC-20 +3k 1025 $0401 N/A VIC-20 8k+ 4609 $1201 01 12 Commodore 64 2049 $0801 01 08 B-128 0003 $0003 * Plus/4-C16 4097 $1001 01 10 Plus/4-C16** 8193 $2001 01 20 C128 mode 7169 $1C01 01 1C C128 mode** 16384 $4001 01 40 * The BASIC RAM of the B128 is located in a separate bank of RAM memory, which starts at a VERY low address and will be difficilt to convert without a track/sector editor or saving it special on a B-128 itself. ** When hi-res GRAPHICS mode space has been allocated. WHAT KIND OF DRIVES CAN I USE? Tape Drives Tape Drives for the VIC, 64 and 128 work well on the PET. In fact you can hook up 2 tape drives on the PET (the second connector is inside the case, on the edge of the motherboard.) and can be accessed as device #2. Commodore Models: SANYO - First drives, power supply section cut out and modified for PET datasette cable/plug. C2N - Box look, black or cream colored case. 1530 - Rounded low-profile, counter & 'save' indicator light. Commodore IEEE-488 5.25" models 2020 - (first drive design, bugs may be present) 2040 - Updated ROMS, resembles a 1541 format & readbable on 1541/71s 4040 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. 2031 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. 8050 - Single Sided/Quad Density format, 512k per disk side. 8250 - Double Sided/Quad Density format, 1mb per disk SFD-1001 - Same as 8250, but single drive unit. Commodore IEEE-488 8" 8280 - 1 MB or 512k per Drive (little info on this one...) Commodore IEEE-488 Hard Disk Drives 9060 - Five Magabyte Hard Disk Unit 9090 - Seven Megabyte Hard Disk Unit 3rd party MSD-SD1 ** The MSD SD1&2 offer both IEEE-488 and MSD-SD2 ** VIC/64/128/+4 Serial bus interfaces. Modified 1541 PRINTERS? Commodore Model IEEE-488 Printers 4022 4023 8023 Some companies produced printers with IEEE-488 interface options (Epson was one) HOW CAN I GET PET PROGRAMS FROM DISK TO TAPE? You can just LOAD the program from tape and and SAVE them to disk one after another, of course, if you are using a VIC/64/128, etc. the loading address will get messed up. Fortunately there is a wonderful fily copy utility available for PET (4.0), VIC, and Commodore 64/128, called 'Unicopy'. Unicopy (written by the famous Commodore enthusiast, Jim Butterfield) allows you to copy from disk directly to tape. This of course preserves the loading address and makes things mauch easier. (also it performs multiple file copies instead of just one program at a time). HOW CAN I GET PET TAPE PROGRAMS TO DISK? Again you can do LOAD and SAVE as I mentioned or use a handy little utility I had discovered for the 64. This program will automatically LOAD each file off of tape and subsequently SAVE it to disk and continue until you stop it (or a disk error occurs when it attempts to save a file with the same name as one already on disk, disk full, or end of tape. HOW DO I HEAR/PLAY SOUND ON MY PET? Like many other microcomputers of the time the PET was not originally designed to produce sound. A few methods of sound generation have been developed but the most popular employs the use of parallel user port pin M which generates.... The latest 4000/8000 (large screen PET) motherboards have a built-in piezo speaker and also have a bell sound accessible with a print: chr$(7) Sound Interface Diagrams here... WHAT ARE THE BASIC COMMANDS FOR MY PET? For the most part the BASIC on the 64 is identical to the upgrade ROM PETs and it only varys by a few commands and features between original and 4.0 ROMs. On the other hand the 'memory map', the locations you POKE numbers into, vary quite a bit between ROM revisions. Memory Maps are available for all the versions... HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is available on all PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a BRK instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), most people enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. WHAT ARE THE COMMANDS FOR THE M/L MONITOR? G - Execute M/L: G programaddress (i.e. G 033C) L - Load: L "filename",dev (i.e. L "PACMAN",08) S - Save: S "filename",dev,startaddress,endaddress (i.e. S "FLASH ATTACK",02,027A,2000) R - Display Processor Registers X - Exit Tiny Mon M - Memory Display: M startaddress endaddress (i.e. M 0400 04A0) : - Modify Memory (supplied in memory dumps using the M command) ; - Modify Processor Registers (supplied in the processor register, P command) CAN I GET A BETTER M/L MONITOR FOR MY PET? Yes, there are two that I know of that are readily avaiable. The most popular (and universal among the Commodore 8-bits) is Jim Butterfield's Supermon. There are versions available for all ROM revisions including original ROM PETS and offer a mini Assembler and Disassembler among other useful memory/ML commands. The other, similar to Supermon is called Extramon. There are other versions many of wich are commercial but I have little information on them. I HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN USE JOYSTICKS, WHERE CAN I GET/MAKE THEM? The PET was not initially designed for joysticks but a determined user had devised a dual-joystick interface employing the parallel port. This interface allows you to plug in standard Atari/Commodore compatible joysticks.... Interface Diagram Here HOW COME MY PET CAN'T READ A TAPE FROM MY PLUS/4 OR COMMODORE 16 OR VISA-VERSA? You are quite a collector, aren't you? When Commodore designed the Plus/4 and Commodore 16 they broke alot of standards they had previously established for their 8-bits (and fortunately went back to in the C128); besides the plug designs, they changed the sound-frequency of the signals used to record on tape. Though the the format is identical to the PET and the other 8-bits, the sound is only readable on the Plus/4 and Commodore 16. My sggestion would be to record the program on disk (1541) and then read it on a 4040 or 2031, or copy them from the 1541 to tape using a 64 or 128. WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically break a computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other mechanical units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. History of 'the killer poke' When the first PETs (small 9" screen) models came out, the display wasnt all that fast. It wasn't too long before someone learned they could impove the character printing speed via a poke to location 59458; which would set the video controller into a faster mode. It was a noticible improvement of speed on programs using PRINT often, it was kind of like a free upgrade. It was mentioned in a few publications and used in many programs that relied on printing to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor Magazine, a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the command in one of the 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue which you could insert into their game "joust" to make it play faster. Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs, they had  improved display speed which made that POKE unnecessary. An unfortunate side effect was that the POKE to 59458 still caused the already faster controller to run even faster, in fact too-fast, which could result in damaging the PETs video curcuitry when left running. I discovered it by accident after our school received some large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen starts to warp after about the third line and the display stops around the fifth, the keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this mode, the only solution is to turn it off, quickly! Fortunately none of the school's PETs were damaged due to this POKE. Later Cursor Magazine published a 'fix' that would allow older PETs to use the poke and keep the large-screen units from frying. Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have this fix. Prevention Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games) when running them on a large-screen PET and be ready with the power switch when you first run it. I have usually found the 'killer poke' statement looking like this: POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32. The fix is to put an if-then conditional to determine if the poke is needed for the PET running the program, here is the code: IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from the user port... Insert Video Diagram here.... WHAT ARE THE PINOUTS SO I CAN BUILD AN IEEE-488 CABLE FOR MY PET TO MY DRIVE. WHERE CAN I GET SOFTWARE FOR MY PET? WHERE CAN I GET CONNECTORS THAT FIT THE USER/IEEE-488 PORTS? IS THERE A MODEM AVAILABLE FOR MY PET? I know of only one company that prosuced a modem and IEEE-488 interface, the company is TNW, and I think they also built the Commoodre 8010, an acoustic modem for the PET. I have some notes on using the device but have never actually seen one. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 21 23:40:12 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Odyssey2, Commodore Calc., 8" disks.... Message-ID: Howdy: I picked up a few things today, and was wondering if anyone might have some feedback on this snag... including some more information on some of the items. To start with, I paid a total of $44 for the following. Feel free to let me know if I got a good deal... or not. 1) Odyssey 2 game system from Magnavox (Phillips). This comes with the original box, power supply, joysticks, TV converter box, etc. Also in this package is the THE VOICE expansion unit that allows voice output from the cartridge software. The unit itself is in _perfect_ condition! Thirteen game carts also came with this unit: Alien Invaders-Plus!, Computer Golf!, Attack of the Timelord!, Invaders From Hyperspace!, Speedwar, Spin-Out, Crypto-logic (the last three on one cart), Killer Bees!, KC'sKrazy Chase!, Sid the Spellbinder!, Type & Tell!, Football!, Nimble Numbers Ned, Bowling, Basketball (the last two on same cart), UFO!, and KC Munchkin!. Along with these carts are all the original boxes, in great shape, and the original manuals and countless other inserts! Does anyone know what the 'going' rate for a package like this might be these days? Also, does anyone have any inside info. on why ALL their titles end with an ' ! '?? 2) Commodore Solid State Electronic Calculator Model # 887D seriel #099632. I am seeking more information on this one. It's just a small digital (old style, lights actually are lit for numbers, etc.) calculator. This came with original manual, inserts, power supply, and box. I wasn't able to find a manufactured date, but on one of the instruction addition inserts, it is dated 10-1-1975. Please let me know if you might have more info. on this one. Also, let me know if there are any die-hard Commodore collectors that might be interested in purchasing this from me. 3) I found 60, six boxes of 10, 8" diskettes. These boxes are the heavy, plastic boxes that the top is spring-loaded to pop off. The disks are in mint condition and are unlabled. However, some of the boxes are labeled such things as 'daily backups', C, D, E, etc., and seems to be some accounting or other business disks. Can someone help me out and give some info on what types of machines used these? I know the Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 2,12, & 16 used these 8" disks but what others did? Is anyone interested in buying these up from me? I don't have a heck of a lot of use for them. Well, that's about all. Feel free to contribute any of the requested info., and anything else you'd like. Do you think I did ok financially on this deal? Also, if you're interested in getting 2 & 3 from above please let me know.... I will entertain ANY offers. Finally, I am also looking for any Atari 400 cassettes or cartridges. I don't have a disk drive, but am looking for one. Let me know what you have and how much you'd let 'er go fo, and we'll work something out. Also, looking for old TRS-80 software on disk and cassette, or CoCo cartridges, some keep that in mind as well. Thanks a ton for your time, CORD G. COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 00:58:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Odyssey2, Commodore Calc., 8" disks.... In-Reply-To: from "Cord Coslor" at Jul 21, 97 11:40:12 pm Message-ID: <9707220458.AA13116@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970721/2680c0df/attachment.ksh From kyrrin at wizards.NOSPAM.net Tue Jul 22 00:59:20 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.NOSPAM.net (kyrrin@wizards.NOSPAM.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals Message-ID: <33d84be6.1991914@mail.wizards.net> Fellow in SoCal's trying to get rid of some worthwhile-looking books. Anyone interested? -=-=- -=-=- I was surprised to receive no response whatsoever to my original post. When I started collecting PDPs, I grabbed all the documentation I could get my hands on. Maybe nobody runs RSTS any more. Maybe V9.0 manuals are too old. In any case, the manuals I described in my original post (below) go in the trash if not spoken for by Friday July 25. ---------- Greetings. Unfortunately, my interest in PDP-11s exceeds my available storage. I picked up a partial set of RSTS/E manuals a while back, but find I now need the space they occupy. These are the standard orange DEC binders, and most of the contents are still in shrink wrap. The partial set is as follows: ---------- System Management (Volume 2) System Manager's Guide System Usage (Volume 3) System User's Guide Guide to Writing Command Procedures Utilities (Volume 4) Utilities Reference Manual Introduction to the EDT Editor SORT/MERGE User's Guide RUNOFF User's Guide Utilities (Volume 4A) EDT Editor Manual Utilities (Volume 4B) Task Builder Reference Manual Programmer's Utilities Manual RT11 Utilities Manual TECO User's Guide BASIC-PLUS (Volume 5) BASIC-PLUS Language Manual System Programming (Volume 6) Programming Manual MACRO Programming (Volume 7) System Directives Manual ODT Reference Manual MACRO Programming (Volume 7A) MACRO-11 Language Manual RMS-11 MACRO Programmer's Guide RMS (Volume 8) RMS-11: An Introduction RMS-11 User's Guide RMS-11 Utilities ---------- These manuals are located in Southern CA. Shipping would be pretty expensive, and I would prefer not to have to pack them (e.g. preference granted to those who could pick them up). I am not looking for much (if anything) in return for these; I really just want them gone and suspect someone might need them. If you want me to pack and ship them, though, I will probably want something to offset my time and trouble (and shipping, of course). I am always looking for Q-bus hardware, and right now specifically for S-box (BA213) cabinet kits for a KA650 and a VCB02. Please send email to slinker@primenet.com if interested (NOTE: The email address in the header has an underscore "_" appended to foil spammers). Jeff. -- Jeff Shirley slinker@primenet.com Remove the underscore ("_") from the end of my email address when replying ** UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL/PROMOTIONAL EMAIL IS NOT ACCEPTED ** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ADDRESS ALTERED TO FOIL SPAMMERS: See below for address... Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin-at-wizards-dot-net http://www.wizards.net/technoid "...Spam is bad. Spam wastes resources. Spam is theft of service. Don't spam, period..." From transit at primenet.com Tue Jul 22 03:09:38 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: <199707211535.AA16442@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I for one hope not. The few groups I write to that are a a constant source > of junk mail from the spammers that parse them. I could envision something "robo-moderated" (i.e. only people signed up with the group could post to it, although everyone could read). I tend to doubt anyone would go the trouble of signing on with a listserv, just to spam. . . From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 07:23:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jul 22, 97 01:09:38 am Message-ID: <9707221123.AA13089@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970722/cadbc97e/attachment.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 07:39:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <33d84be6.1991914@mail.wizards.net> from "kyrrin@wizards.NOSPAM.net" at Jul 22, 97 05:59:20 am Message-ID: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970722/bcf63ae5/attachment.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Tue Jul 22 07:44:10 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: HHC's? Message-ID: <33D4AB1A.69162CDE@texoma.net> I was curious what the status of the HHC's were? JamesL. Rice From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Tue Jul 22 08:45:31 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: DG Hardware Available Message-ID: <199707221345.AA25612@maddog.swec.com> In mail ID number 9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca, Mr. Tim Shoppa laments: > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here in B.C. - machines with full > toggle-and-light front panels - and I'm unable to give them away. This is a crying shame. For plain beauty, the S/130 rivals, and to some, outranks even the much-vaunted IMSAI. For raw speed in a minicomputer the 16-bit line from DG was virtually without peer. Yes, some late -11s surpassed the raw power of the Nova instruction set, but it was years behind DG. We'd better save these machines while we can; Data General was, at its zenith only about 20% of the size of DEC, and its install- base was similar in scope. These machines are _not_ common, remain useable today, and are a joy to look at and run. Don't let the opportunity pass. > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for > the junk heap? I, for one, certainly hope not. Part of the misconception about minicomputers is that they take up huge amounts of space. Yes, individual examples are larger than the average microcomputer; however, minicomputers stack nicely, can be stored very compactly in rack-mounts, and being squared off, can occupy corners very well. They're not as space-intensive as one might think. They're usually faster than most micros, too. While minis don't, right now, get the blast of attention that machines like the IMSAIs do (why is that machine so popular? War Games, maybe?), they are a valuable link to computing's history and they're disappearing from existance very quickly. Without Mr. Shoppa's efforts, better than a dozen of these wonderful systems would have been shipped to the scrappers without a second thought. And that would be too bad. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 22 09:53:12 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT') Message-ID: <199707221453.AA14301@world.std.com> < Yes...most PDP-11 gear is that funky purple color...The early VAXen Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Yet if I make > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I would love to have some classic minis, but I'm having a hard enough time storing (and moving twice in the past 7 months) my collection of 30-odd micros. So... If anyone is willing to give me free storage space in the Saskatoon area, I'll drive down to BC and pick up a few of your minis you want to give away! (And yes, I'll take an IMSAI too.) > Tim. ttfn srw From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Tue Jul 22 10:05:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive Message-ID: I'll look into it! Mike ---------- From: PG Manney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 4:03PM A customer's Atari 720 K 3 1/2" floppy drive died. Anyone have one? According to him, this takes standard IBM DSDD 720K drives, but not Tandy (I guess, because of the strange data cable.) Thanks, manney@nwohio.com From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 22 10:51:49 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minis not "trendy" enough. (was:RSTS/E Manuals) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Yet if I make > > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) > > I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that > PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I would love to > have some classic minis, but I'm having a hard enough time storing (and > moving twice in the past 7 months) my collection of 30-odd micros. So... I found an innovative solution! My PDP lives under my bed! I have to go post a picture of this. The processor is sideways underneath the headboard, the RX02 is facing out the side of the bed, and the rat's nest of cables (And the EDSI harddisk) is in the middle. The terminal connected to it is sitting on my dresser. THE WALL +-------------+ |**** 0 xxxx| |**** 000 xxxx| +---------xxxx+ **** = processor 0 = wires and misc. xxxx = RX02 From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 22 10:52:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: HHC's? In-Reply-To: <33D4AB1A.69162CDE@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, James L. Rice wrote: > I was curious what the status of the HHC's were? Mike has contacted the company with the HHCs and there is a guy there counting up all the available units. Mike and I worked out a deal of $1600 for 200 units, which puts the base price per unit at $8 before shipping. This will leave me with about 40-50 units to sell or trade off, more than I wanted but I think I can manage. Mike is to get back to me by today or tomorrow. I'll keep everyone posted. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 22 10:49:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here > in B.C. - machines with full toggle-and-light front panels - and > I'm unable to give them away. Repeated posts of the hardware lists > to "classiccmp" have yielded virtually no interest, outside of a > couple of truly heroic collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. > > Yet if I make > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) Hey, if you're willing to pay for the shipping of those beasts, or perhaps drive them down to me, I'd be more than happy to take them in. The fact is they are too cumbersome for most collectors to deal with. You are to be commended for putting forth the effort to collect them yourself, but for us common folk they are just too unwieldy. If I could get machines like you have locally (I do have a source for PDPs) then I would do it. However, I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars or drive hundreds (thousands) of miles in a rented truck (unless you can fit a PDP-11 in the trunk of a Honda Civic) to pick stuff up. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jul 22 11:06:25 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minis not "trendy" enough. (was:RSTS/E Manuals) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707221606.RAA09633@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message Tim wrote: > I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that > PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I agree, and here in little old England the houses are very small making the problem greater. I don't have a garage to put big stuff in and my recently converted loft is already full. See pictures at: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/loft/ > I would love to > have some classic minis, but I'm having a hard enough time storing (and > moving twice in the past 7 months) my collection of 30-odd micros. Snap, I love Unix and I would an old PDP to run Unix on, but I don't have space to keep the PDP kit I already have. My main interests are the home micros, so recently I have had to make some hard descisions about passing on the PDP kit I have to other people who can devote more time to it. (Note: I made this descision a few weeks ago now but still haven't got around to doing anything about it because I hate the feeling I get when I think about it, even though I think the things will end up at a good home.) So if you want some PDP kit and can collect from Cambridge UK drop me an email. > So... > If anyone is willing to give me free storage space in the Saskatoon area, > I'll drive down to BC and pick up a few of your minis you want to give > away! (And yes, I'll take an IMSAI too.) Ah storage... if I could only find cheap long term self storage around Cambridge (UK) -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 22 11:36:22 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals Message-ID: <199707221636.AA18279@world.std.com> In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one word: "hogwash". For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but usually do not top 100 pounds or so. Yes, collecting them does take creative space management. I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good call! I hadn't thought of that one... Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with space left over. I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter method" of space management. The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 22 11:55:41 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <199707221652.LAA20593@challenge.sunflower.com> Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd probably love to have one. ---------- > From: Carl R. Friend > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 11:42 AM > > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E > Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the > argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one > word: "hogwash". > > For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" > wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- > abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little > deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are > at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but > usually do not top 100 pounds or so. > > Yes, collecting them does take creative space management. > > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good > call! I hadn't thought of that one... > > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for > transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 > for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just > got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays > in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). > > Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked > at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with > space left over. > > I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter > underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I > also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the > dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal > stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. > > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the > six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen > machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- > fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter > method" of space management. > > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out > to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are > doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > | | | > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | > | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | > | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | > | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | > |________________________________________________|_____________________| From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 22 12:00:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221642.AA26026@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good > call! I hadn't thought of that one... One GOtcha though - my bed is a hospital bed (The kind you can crank up and down) so there's plenty of space under it. But the end of the crank rod sits above the M8186, so if someone cranks it down... *CRUNCH!* There is now a large placard attached to the crank handle - "DO NOT TOUCH THIS HANDLE UNLESS YOU WANT TO BUY THIS COMPUTER!" On a similar note, the 11 itself is not much larger than a PC XT. You can still buy an M8189 (KDF11-BA) from DEC, they cost $2215. From scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu Tue Jul 22 12:21:42 1997 From: scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here > in B.C. - machines with full toggle-and-light front panels - and > I'm unable to give them away. Repeated posts of the hardware lists > to "classiccmp" have yielded virtually no interest, outside of a > couple of truly heroic collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. I'd love to have one, but there's the usual two problems - one is that B.C. is a really long way from Maine, and two, storage space (although if you were on this corner of N. America I'd solve that one). I've always wanted something with a full panel, but 3 hr drives are definitely about the limit. Now, if there was a bucket brigade..... -stacy -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 22 18:25:28 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: PET FAQ Message-ID: <9706228696.AA869621372@compsci.powertech.co.uk> I have some comments on the PET FAQ, but I've lost Larry Anderson's e-mail address. Accordingly I am posting it here, with apologies to all who don't wish to read it. > WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? > > The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing MOS > Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its > microprocessor, the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in > series' the first series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the > modern 4000 and 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is > the SuperPET. What about the 8200 Series? I am not sure of the differences between this, the 8000 series and the 500/700 (B/P) series - see my post earlier this week. I have also heard that the 8200 series runs BASIC 4.5, but mine runs 4.0. [...] > Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): > PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) > - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys I dispute this. The 2001 xN, of which we had several at school, had the new ROMs, the new motherboard (using 2332 ROM chips) but the small keyboard and the built in C2N. This was the essential difference between the N and B machines. > - Upgrade ROMs > - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. > - many with clearer green on black displays I thought all the N and B machines had green screens - we even had one straight 2001 (old ROM) with a green screen. > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed Was this not only available as an upgrade? > PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) > - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) > - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. Our green-screened old-ROM machine was labelled CBM, but was again a small keyboard/internal tape machine. Otherwise I remember little about the B machines > PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) I wasn't aware of a small keyboard 4000 series. Interesting. > - 4.0 ROMs > - molded plastic top > 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') > - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns > - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. > 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) Can it?!? I wasn't aware of this. You can restrict the area in which it prints on the screen to an arbitrary rectangle, but it doesn't behave like the 40-column machines in that the screen is still physically 80-column, it doesn't handle wrapped text, etc. The 8200 series could be set from 80 to 40 columns by unsoldering and moving two chips. I haven't done this to mine yet... [...] At this point you must mention the 8296 and 8296D! [... SUPERPET ...] > MOTHERBOARD SERIES > > 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) > IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ > ! # ! #! > ! # ! #! > ! # exp ! #! exp > ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus > ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! > ! # ! #! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ROMS ! ! ! > ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! >tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! > #1 # ! #2 # ! > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ The left hand board is a hybrid of the original motherboard (of which there were no fewer than _four_ versions). Remember the original motherboard used 2 kilobyte (800 Hex) ROM chips (6540s in most, 2316s in some). The ROMS were therefore not F E D C A B 9 but F8 F0 E D8 D0 C8 C0 The righthand motherboard was the 2000B and some of the 3000 - the tape ports were swapped on the 2000N and other 3000 AFAIK. > 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) > IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ > ! # # tape > ! # # #2 > ! R exp bus # ! > ! A #! 2000 Series > ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k > ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] > ! M R B ! > ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series > ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k > ! O S E ! > ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series > ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* > ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] > +--------------------+ 8200 series: Again this basic format, but rearranged so the separate keyboard mod is sensible. 128k RAM on motherboard of which 96k usable (?). > WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? > > Original ROMs > Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are > limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine > language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory > location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for > lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a > while to compile them) Some of these were not bugs but features. Peeking and poking in upper memory (thresholds vary!) were disabled to stop people looking at the ROMS. In the E page are some I/O addresses, so it is re-enabled from there upwards... The only other genuine bugs I came across on my own machine (my first ever computer was a PET - original ROMs, 13th birthday present in 1980) were one in screen editing, and the machine crashes instead of giving the "too many files" error. [...] > Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. Only in 8000 series and fat 40, AFAIK. The small screen 4000 series did not have the new screen controller or many of the new graphics features. [...] > HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? > > The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is available on all > PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a BRK > instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), most people > enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. TIM stood for Terminal Interface Monitor, according to my manual. [...] > WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? > > This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically break a > computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can > potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other mechanical > units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat > commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. > History of 'the killer poke' [ Explanation with one or too inaccuracies has been snipped ] The old "video controller" could not be put into a faster or a slower mode. It was discrete TTL, and simply read the screen memory, shoved it through the character ROM, and sent it to the monitor. It would not have affected printing speed even if you had speeded it up. The old PETs were slow because the SOFTWARE of the print character routine waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the screen memory. This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which would have resulted in random pixels (snow) being illuminated on the screen. There was an input on one of the I/O chips which was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when to access the video RAM. The famous poke was actually to another register of the I/O chip, and configured this input as an output. The older pets didn't mind (much!), and the print character routine saw the screen as always available, but on the later ones with the new video controller, this conflicted with another output and caused the video controller chip to do a wobbly (and could even have burnt out one or the other). [...] > IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 NO!!!!!! Peek(50000) will only be zero on the original old ROM pets! > CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? > > With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from > the user port... > > Insert Video Diagram here.... Don't use the one published in "The PET Revealed" by Nick Hampshire. It doesn't work. [...] <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 18:45:56 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7A57.F44CFBB7.36@siva.bris.ac.uk> From: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:57:36.60 To: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" CC: Subj: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths >Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not >at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 >room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, >but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd >probably love to have one. That's no excuse! :-). When I got my first minicomputer I knew absolutely nothing about them (I'd never used a front panel, had only vague ideas on how a processor worked at gate level, etc). I suspect the rest is true of some other serious collectors on this list. Still, I sat down with the machine, and even more importantly the service manual, and I figured it out. It didn't take that long. And I didn't have a group of experts to turn to, either. -tony From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 22 12:51:58 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <199707221748.MAA23538@challenge.sunflower.com> Well I've done that too. Like with my Tandy Model4's, which I didn't know anything about. But at least I knew it as all there. The places I get my stuff, never have anything like this. You find me one, and well, if I can afford it, I'll have a stab. Be a good reason for me to learn unix. ---------- > From: PDP11 Hacker ..... > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 1:45 PM > > From: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:57:36.60 > To: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" > CC: > Subj: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths > > >Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not > >at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 > >room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, > >but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd > >probably love to have one. > > That's no excuse! :-). When I got my first minicomputer I knew absolutely > nothing about them (I'd never used a front panel, had only vague ideas on > how a processor worked at gate level, etc). I suspect the rest is true > of some other serious collectors on this list. > > Still, I sat down with the machine, and even more importantly the service > manual, and I figured it out. It didn't take that long. And I didn't have a > group of experts to turn to, either. > > -tony > From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 18:56:39 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7A59.7361C1B3.1@siva.bris.ac.uk> From: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:47:54.16 To: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" CC: Subj: Minicomputer Storage Myths > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E >Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the >argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one >word: "hogwash". Absolutly! My parents (who have to put up with and store most of my little collection) don't like storing micros (in fact they moan for days when I bring home a TRS-80 or some such), but don't seem to mind the PDP11's/PDP8's etc anything like as much. The reason is simple. Micros are a pain to store. You can't easily stack them (the ones at the bottom get mangled, the pile slips over, etc). Monitors are worse. But minicomputers (generally) come in 19" boxes that either go into a 6' (or taller!) cabinet, or get stacked up in a pile in the corner. They are easy to store. The floor area taken up by a 6' rack is not much larger than the area taken by a micro, BTW... > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good >call! I hadn't thought of that one... I've considered designing a bed with 3 6U or 9U rack bays under it. In the UK you can get beds with storage drawers under them, but one _designed_ for computers would be somewhat interesting... > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for >transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 >for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just >got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays >in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). A large estate car (Station wagon?) will carry a _lot_ of minicomputer hardware. I've been in one which contained : A PDP8/e A PDP11/44 A Sun 3/260 (on its side, on top of the PDP's) A PPL graphics display + trackball A northstar Horizon (OK, a micro, but in a 19" rack) An Acorn System 4 (ditto) A _lot_ of spare boards, drives, heads, etc Service manuals, printsets, etc. No problem at all. > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the >six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen >machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- >fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter >method" of space management. Odd... My parents _like_ big rack cabinets - in fact they grab them for me to put my machines in. Maybe I'm just lucky. > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out >to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are >doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. That's exactly why I started. I realised (10 years ago) that nobody was preserving the recent history of computing, and it was going to be lost for ever. So I did something. I started collecting and restoring computers. >| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -tony From impeesa at arrakis.es Tue Jul 22 05:07:13 1997 From: impeesa at arrakis.es (Sergio Izquierdo García) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner Message-ID: <33D48651.4860@arrakis.es> Hello all, I own a Honeywell 716 Minicomputer, in running order. It?s a general purpose 16-bit machine, with 128 KB of ferrite core memory, a cassette tape device, a front panel as main console, and an ASR-33 Teletype as operator's console. There were other peripherals, such as line printers, fixed disks, card reader-puncher, high-speed paper tape reader, 9" tape decks... but I only own the basic system. The system was designed (aprox.) in June 1972. Has anybody ever heard about such machine? I?ve spent some time looking through the net, and looks like I?m the only one I own that system. Perhaps Honeywell didn?t made lots of them, like DEC did with PDP's. I?ve read somewhere (don?t know if it?s true) that first nodes in Arpanet were Honeywell DDP 516. I think my system is the next model (Honeywell DDP 716). In fact, mine can execute H-516's instructions set. I also heard U.S.Navy used these systems for shot calculations. If anybody has any information about the Honeywell DDP 516 or 716 machines, please email me. I?m looking for somebody who worked with those systems or even better, somebody who owns one of them. Thanks in advance. -- Sergio Izquierdo Garc?a ** Computer collector ** mailto: impeesa at arrakis dot es From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jul 22 13:00:46 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221642.AA26026@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: <199707221800.TAA11407@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Ok Carl, You have me feeling guilty now and thinking of more creative storage practices so I can keep the limited PDP stuff I have. > For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" > wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- > abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little > deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are > at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but > usually do not top 100 pounds or so. Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you get with a micro. > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good > call! I hadn't thought of that one... I know a guy who has computers under all of the beds in his parents house. We have a plinth around the base of our bed which means you can't easily get or see under it, but... my wife Michelle has problems lifting the bed so it might be the perfect place for emergency storage :-) > Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked > at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with > space left over. Your right I probably do, but I do want to get a couple of large desks so I can put my Apollo and MG-1 on them as well as have room for the odd micro I am playing with at the time. I guess there will be room under the desk like there is under my current desk for two 4/110's and an SMS 1000 (aka PDP 11/23) (Getting things organised has started now.) > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the > six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen > machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- > fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter > method" of space management. I used to have computers all around the house, but since having the loft done they all HAVE to be up there now. > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out > to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are > doing it. > The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. I don't get to hear about many minis but when I do I contact people who I think will be interested in them. This mailing list will be the first to hear of any. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 22 13:12:36 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Help me out here, PDP-11 Message-ID: <199707221809.NAA24630@challenge.sunflower.com> This seems to be the favorite from what I can tell from the many discussions of Mini's. If I could get a hold of one of these, what parts do I need, what can I use it for and how much should I have to pay for it? Please feel free to email me personally if you do not wish to clutter the list. Bill Girnius thedm@sunflower.com From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 19:27:04 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7A5D.B2F59FFB.3@siva.bris.ac.uk> >Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy >Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real >pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? Put them on top of piles of minicomputers :-). Seriously, I _have_ used chipboard/shelf brackets to make 'tunnels' that fit over the crazier shaped machines (PETs, etc), so that I can stack other things on top. If you do this, and decide to run the machines that inside the tunnels, then please add fans or at least make sure air can get into the cooling vents. >On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are >normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you >get with a micro. Indeed. I have a large pile of DEC printsets + A4 binders of user guides, etc. Mind you, the 8 IBM Techref manuals (PC, XT, AT vol1, AT vol2, O&A vol 1, O&A vol 2, Scientific O&A, PC-jr) take up quite a bit of space as well... >-- >Kevan -tony From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jul 22 13:50:16 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> [plea by Jeff Shirley elimiated for brevity...] > > When I was in Pasadena, Jeff Shirley was a never-ending reliable source > for excellent-condition classic hardware, software, and knowledge. Good to hear. Apparently I have missed some of his messages along the way... > Over the past decade, Jeff Shirley has made great efforts to make > sure that truly classic DEC hardware, software, and systems find > a good home. Again, a good thing... > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here > in B.C. - machines with full toggle-and-light front panels - and > I'm unable to give them away. Repeated posts of the hardware lists > to "classiccmp" have yielded virtually no interest, outside of a > couple of truly heroic collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. I'd love to have one. I've mentioned this to Paul (Pierce) and seem to recall him sending you a message. All I've got to do is figure out how to get one here... > Yet if I make > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Think you've hit it on the head! But I would not call them "collectors", any more than the people who will only ever offer items through auction. These folk are just out for the quick $$, and have little enough interest in the machine or its history. They just want to claim that they have something that you don't and can get a lot of money for it! > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) Now hold up here guy! Kind of the 'broad brush' approach don't you think? This passtime ("hobby" if you must) tends to take cooperation on both sides to make things work! I send Jeff a note this morning about the manuals. I had not contacted him earlier due to a direct inferrance in his posting that he *did not want to ship them* ! We'll see if that has changed. I just can't justify a romp from Oregon to Southern California for a set of manuals. I get quite a bit of gear shipped to me, but it takes some effort on *both* sides! Having a PDP-8/i system shipped out from Wisconsin set me back nearly $2k, but I considered it to be worthwhile, and the person that had it worked with me on the shipping arrangements. Some folk make it feel like a *major* event to get a few pieces or books put into a box and hauled to the local post. I've only got so much time and patience for dealing with situations like that. Please keep in mind, that it is only in the *very rare* case that any of us ever "give something away". There is almost always some cost on both sides, be it fuel, shipping, time, effort, or what have you. There perhaps more than anything is what defines a 'true' collector. How much 'cost' are you willing to invest, without always getting something tangible in return. I'd ramble (rave) on, but I suspect its time to get down from the soapbox. Besides I still need to finish sorting and cataloging a truckload of Dec and Sun gear I rescued this weekend. (and I suspect this connection is going to drop any second now...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From BNICALEK at aol.com Tue Jul 22 14:15:38 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: How do I Unsubscribe From This List Server? HELP! Message-ID: <970722151352_1347326444@emout06.mail.aol.com> I've been trying to do this over the last few days, and still can't figure it out... Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 15:22:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Help me out here, PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <199707221809.NAA24630@challenge.sunflower.com> from "Bill Girnius" at Jul 22, 97 01:12:36 pm Message-ID: <9707221922.AA15235@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1463 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970722/e9309c1c/attachment.ksh From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 22 14:43:36 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: PET FAQ Message-ID: <199707221543_MC2-1B64-691B@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk >I have some comments on the PET FAQ, but I've lost Larry Anderson's e-mail address. Accordingly I am posting it here, with apologies to all who don't wish to read it.< I believe it is foxnhare@goldrush.com I've already sent him e-mail, directing him to Jim Brain's "Canonical List of Commodore Products" which mentions a number of computer and printer models he missed. I also mentioned the FAQ that Jim maintains on various Commodore topics, although I assume he's familiar with that. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 22 14:43:33 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: HHC's? Message-ID: <199707221543_MC2-1B64-6919@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Mike has contacted the company with the HHCs and there is a guy there counting up all the available units. Mike and I worked out a deal of $1600 for 200 units, which puts the base price per unit at $8 before< Again, bravo for undertaking this effort. Once we all get our units, we'll probably need a separate listserv to discuss them, swap programs and such. If folks have access to the internet (usenet) newsgroups, I know of one which is virtually inactive and could easily be hijacked for this purpose. ;-] Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 22 14:43:39 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Minis not "trendy" enough Message-ID: <199707221543_MC2-1B64-691D@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend overbackwards to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for the junk heap?<< >I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I would love to< This is THE critical fact. Go into an antique store sometime, and look at the prices. You'll see some little knicknack for $300, and then you'll see a huge, 150-year old carved mahogany wardrobe closet for-- $260? The fact is EVERYONE has room for the small knicknacks, but few people have room for the wardrobe closets. Similarly, I can (and some day, probably will) decorate my office with cute little ZX-80s, Mattel Aquarius, CGP-115-type printer plotters and the like, scattered around for people to look at as curiousities (and ask about, if they're foolish enough to get me started); but, what would I do with a mini or an IBM 360 if I had one? Not that preserving some of the larger systems isn't a worthwhile effort, but I think most people would echo W.C. Fields comparing women to elephants: "I like to look at them, but I wouldn't want to own one." From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 22 17:22:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACB1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> A very complete Commodore ROM Geneology is in MICRO Issue 41, October '81. I have a copy in my PET Service Reference Guide, but it's 4 pages of tables and has handwritten additions that would be difficult to OCR. If you're a PET fan you might have this issue around anyway. By the way, the Service Reference Guide is a priceless piece; all schematics and test instructions, plus diagnostic cassettes and floppies. I have most of the Commodore "Techtopics" monthly bulletins also. Kai > ---------- > From: Larry Anderson & Diane Hare[SMTP:foxnhare@goldrush.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ > > I figured I'd shoot this by you guys as I am getting closer to putting > it on my web site. I am sure I will get some good criticism from you > all. If you have any additions/suggestions or additional questions to > include, let me know. > > I also plan also to add in a couple texts on disk drive usage some PET > memory maps (gee there are barely any PET maps on the net!) and if I > don't find a link to one, an overview of Commodore PET BASIC (applies > to > 64 also). > > (view with a monospaced font for best results) > > THE COMMODORE PET COMPUTER > FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FILE - VERSION 1.0beta > --------------------------------------------- > BY LARRY ANDERSSON, > COMMODORE COLLECTOR AND PET ENTHUSIAST > --------------------------------------------- > > WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? > > The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing > MOS > Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its > microprocessor, > the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in series' the > first > series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the modern > 4000 > and > 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is the > SuperPET. > > 9" display units (40 column x 25 line character only display): > PET 2001series: > Original PET: > - Steel case - Internal 'datasette' cassette tape > drive > - Blue on black 9" display - Small 'calculator style' keyboard > - Small shipment with 4k, most with 8k RAM > - Original ROMs > Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): > PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was > shipped > with) > - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys > - Upgrade ROMs > - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. > - many with clearer green on black displays > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) > - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) > - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. > PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= > RAM) > - 4.0 ROMs > - molded plastic top > 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') > - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns > - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. > 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) > CBM 80xx > - 80 x 25 display, powers-up in upper/lower case. > - buisness xx key keyboard > - later versions had 64k & 96k RAM expansion board options. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET SP9000 SuperPET (or Micro Mainframe) > - 80 x 25 display - 6809 co-processor board > - 96k RAM - True RS-232 interface > - Multiple charactersets (for APL, etc.) > - Avalability of disk Based languages > > MOTHERBOARD SERIES > > 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) > IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ > ! # ! #! > ! # ! #! > ! # exp ! #! exp > ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus > ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! > ! # ! #! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ROMS ! ! ! > ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! > #1 # ! #2 # ! > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ > > 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) > IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ > ! # # tape > ! # # #2 > ! R exp bus # ! > ! A #! 2000 Series > ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k > ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] > ! M R B ! > ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series > ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k > ! O S E ! > ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series > ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* > ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] > +--------------------+ > > WHAT VERSION OF ROMS DO I HAVE ON MY PET? > > The PET/CBM line had three major ROM revisions as well as a few > minor > ones, > you cannot reliably determine the ROMs by looking at the outside of > the PET > (unless it has a large monitor). Fortunately there is an easy way > to > distinguish the three various versions by just turning on the > computer. > Depending on how your start-up message looks you can determine the > ROM > version: > > *** COMMODORE BASIC *** - Original ROMs sometimes referred to as > 2.0* > ROMs. > (only found in the older calculator > keyboard style > PETs) Occupy $C000-$FFFF > > ### COMMODORE BASIC ### - Commonly known as the 'Upgrade ROMs' > sometimes > referred to as 2.0 or 3.0 ROMs depending > on > who > you ask. Occupy $C000-$FFFF > > *** COMMODORE BASIC 4.0 *** - 4.0 ROMs The only ROMs that will work > on > large-screen PETs. Occupy $B000-$FFFF > > * Some people contend that BASIC version 1.0 never made it out of > beta > development and the PET line started with version 2.0 ROMs... > Commodore > on the other hand usually refers to the 'Upgrade ROMs' as V2, or > 2.0. > For the sake of sanity in this FAQ I will refer to them as > original > and > upgrade ROMs, and as for an opinion I will go with the company's > numbering > (which leaves V 3.0 out of the picture). > > WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? > > Original ROMs > Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. > Arrays > are > limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no > machine > language > monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory > location > 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for > lower > case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a > while to > compile them) > > Upgrade ROMs > Many Original ROM bugs were squashed. BASIC commands and > capabilities > very > much like the Commodore 64's. Now includes a tiny ML monitor and > IEEE-488 > disk operability. Easter Egg - enter WAIT 6502,x to see MICROSOFT!' > displayed > on the screen x number of times. > > 4.0 ROMs* > Addition of direct Disk operation commands DLOAD, DSAVE, COPY, > HEADER, > etc. > Ability to repeat cursor control characters by holding down keys. > Reserved > DOS error-channel variables: DS,DS$. Added screen 'window' > formatting > control > characters. > * The small screen-and large screen versions of these ROMs differ > and > some software developed for the small-screen 4.0 ROMS crash on the > large > screen units. This is due to the necessary changes made for the new > video > controller of the 12" display PETs. > > CAN I RUN VIC-20, 64, 128, PLUS/4, OR C-16 SOFTWARE ON MY PET? > > Maybe. Any program that is all BASIC that does not use hi-res > graphics or > sound and contains no POKES should work readily on a PET. Of course > if it > contains POKEs, sound commands, and Machine Language conversion will > be > nessasary. If it rely on more than one voice of sound, hi-res > grpahics, > programmable character sets or color, it may not be worth converting > because > those features aren't present on the PETs. > > NOTE: Many early VIC, 64, and Plus/4 BASIC games and programs were > converted > PET games. > > HOW DO I GET 64 (VIC, PLUS/4, ETC.) BASIC PROGRAMS ON MY PET? > > Unlike the later 8-bit Commodores,the PET always loads programs into > the > memory address they were saved at (i.e. no loading ,8 and ,8,1 as > on > the > later machines), which means BASIC programs saved on VICs, 64s, > 128s, > etc, > will not load in the right location on the PET to be seen by the > BASIC > interpreter. PET BASIC starts at location 1025 ($0401 in hex) and > the > later > Commodore machines have different, higher starting locations. (see > table x) > > There are a couple ways to get a BASIC program to load properly into > memory, > > Disk Track/Sector Editors: > My preferred method of conversion is using a disk track/sector > editing > utility > to change the 'load address bytes' of the file directly on the disk. > > This is > not an easy process to 'explain' and I hope to write it up at a > later > time. > > BASIC Line Relocation Method: > Here is a way to get the BASIC editor to do it for you; of course > you > will > need to have an upgrade ROM or later PET (which has a ML monitor) or > load in > a monitor for your original ROM PET first. It involves 'linking' > the > higher > located BASIC program to a line starting in regular BASIC, when you > delete > that line, the editor will move your program to where it belongs in > memory. > > 1. Enter NEW to erase any programs already in memory. > 2. Enter: 0 REM > 3. LOAD the program you want converted (i.e. LOAD"program name",1 > for > tape) > 4. When loaded, enter the machine language monitor by entering SYS > 1024 > 5. display the first part of the BASIC you first typed: > M 0401 0408 > 6. Change the line-link to the memory location of the program to be > moved; > use cursor keys to move up and change the first two two-digit > numbers to > read: > :0401 01 08 00 00 8F 00 00 00 > ^^ ^^ (for a program from a 64, otherwise, see table x) > 7. Press return to change the bytes then enter X to exit the > monitor. > 8. Type LIST, you should see the 0 REM followed by the program. > 9. Enter 0 to delete line 0 which will move the BASIC to its proper > place. > 10. Save the program. > > TABLE X - Load Addresses for BASIC files: > > Saved under Start of BASIC > Computer load load change > Model/ addr. addr. bytes > configuration dec. hex. to: > ------------- ---- ----- ----- > PET/CBM 1025 $0401 N/A > VIC-20 unex. 4097 $1001 01 10 > VIC-20 +3k 1025 $0401 N/A > VIC-20 8k+ 4609 $1201 01 12 > Commodore 64 2049 $0801 01 08 > B-128 0003 $0003 * > Plus/4-C16 4097 $1001 01 10 > Plus/4-C16** 8193 $2001 01 20 > C128 mode 7169 $1C01 01 1C > C128 mode** 16384 $4001 01 40 > > * The BASIC RAM of the B128 is located in a separate bank of RAM > memory, > which starts at a VERY low address and will be difficilt to > convert > without > a track/sector editor or saving it special on a B-128 itself. > ** When hi-res GRAPHICS mode space has been allocated. > > WHAT KIND OF DRIVES CAN I USE? > Tape Drives > Tape Drives for the VIC, 64 and 128 work well on the PET. In fact > you can > hook up 2 tape drives on the PET (the second connector is inside > the > case, > on the edge of the motherboard.) and can be accessed as device #2. > Commodore Models: > SANYO - First drives, power supply section cut out and modified > for > PET datasette cable/plug. > C2N - Box look, black or cream colored case. > 1530 - Rounded low-profile, counter & 'save' indicator light. > Commodore IEEE-488 5.25" models > 2020 - (first drive design, bugs may be present) > 2040 - Updated ROMS, resembles a 1541 format & readbable on > 1541/71s > 4040 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. > 2031 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. > 8050 - Single Sided/Quad Density format, 512k per disk side. > 8250 - Double Sided/Quad Density format, 1mb per disk > SFD-1001 - Same as 8250, but single drive unit. > Commodore IEEE-488 8" > 8280 - 1 MB or 512k per Drive (little info on this one...) > Commodore IEEE-488 Hard Disk Drives > 9060 - Five Magabyte Hard Disk Unit > 9090 - Seven Megabyte Hard Disk Unit > 3rd party > MSD-SD1 ** The MSD SD1&2 offer both IEEE-488 and > MSD-SD2 ** VIC/64/128/+4 Serial bus interfaces. > Modified 1541 > PRINTERS? > Commodore Model IEEE-488 Printers > 4022 > 4023 > 8023 > Some companies produced printers with IEEE-488 interface options > (Epson was one) > > HOW CAN I GET PET PROGRAMS FROM DISK TO TAPE? > > You can just LOAD the program from tape and and SAVE them to disk > one > after > another, of course, if you are using a VIC/64/128, etc. the loading > address > will get messed up. Fortunately there is a wonderful fily copy > utility > available for PET (4.0), VIC, and Commodore 64/128, called > 'Unicopy'. > Unicopy (written by the famous Commodore enthusiast, Jim > Butterfield) > allows > you to copy from disk directly to tape. This of course preserves > the > loading > address and makes things mauch easier. (also it performs multiple > file copies > instead of just one program at a time). > > HOW CAN I GET PET TAPE PROGRAMS TO DISK? > > Again you can do LOAD and SAVE as I mentioned or use a handy little > utility I > had discovered for the 64. This program will automatically LOAD > each > file off > of tape and subsequently SAVE it to disk and continue until you stop > it (or a > disk error occurs when it attempts to save a file with the same name > as one > already on disk, disk full, or end of tape. > > HOW DO I HEAR/PLAY SOUND ON MY PET? > > Like many other microcomputers of the time the PET was not > originally > designed > to produce sound. A few methods of sound generation have been > developed but > the most popular employs the use of parallel user port pin M which > generates.... > The latest 4000/8000 (large screen PET) motherboards have a built-in > piezo > speaker and also have a bell sound accessible with a print: chr$(7) > > Sound Interface Diagrams here... > > WHAT ARE THE BASIC COMMANDS FOR MY PET? > For the most part the BASIC on the 64 is identical to the upgrade > ROM > PETs and > it only varys by a few commands and features between original and > 4.0 > ROMs. > On the other hand the 'memory map', the locations you POKE numbers > into, vary > quite a bit between ROM revisions. Memory Maps are available for > all > the > versions... > > HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? > > The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is > available on all > PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a > BRK > instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), > most > people > enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. > > WHAT ARE THE COMMANDS FOR THE M/L MONITOR? > G - Execute M/L: G programaddress (i.e. G 033C) > L - Load: L "filename",dev (i.e. L "PACMAN",08) > S - Save: S "filename",dev,startaddress,endaddress > (i.e. S "FLASH ATTACK",02,027A,2000) > R - Display Processor Registers > X - Exit Tiny Mon > M - Memory Display: M startaddress endaddress (i.e. M 0400 04A0) > : - Modify Memory (supplied in memory dumps using the M command) > ; - Modify Processor Registers (supplied in the processor register, > P > command) > > CAN I GET A BETTER M/L MONITOR FOR MY PET? > > Yes, there are two that I know of that are readily avaiable. The > most > popular > (and universal among the Commodore 8-bits) is Jim Butterfield's > Supermon. > There are versions available for all ROM revisions including > original > ROM PETS > and offer a mini Assembler and Disassembler among other useful > memory/ML > commands. The other, similar to Supermon is called Extramon. There > are other > versions many of wich are commercial but I have little information > on > them. > > > I HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN USE JOYSTICKS, WHERE CAN I GET/MAKE THEM? > > The PET was not initially designed for joysticks but a determined > user > had > devised a dual-joystick interface employing the parallel port. This > interface > allows you to plug in standard Atari/Commodore compatible > joysticks.... > > Interface Diagram Here > > HOW COME MY PET CAN'T READ A TAPE FROM MY PLUS/4 OR COMMODORE 16 OR > VISA-VERSA? > > You are quite a collector, aren't you? When Commodore designed the > Plus/4 and > Commodore 16 they broke alot of standards they had previously > established for > their 8-bits (and fortunately went back to in the C128); besides the > plug > designs, they changed the sound-frequency of the signals used to > record on > tape. Though the the format is identical to the PET and the other > 8-bits, > the sound is only readable on the Plus/4 and Commodore 16. My > sggestion would > be to record the program on disk (1541) and then read it on a 4040 > or > 2031, or > copy them from the 1541 to tape using a 64 or 128. > > WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? > > This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically > break a > computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can > potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other > mechanical > units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command > somewhat > commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. > > History of 'the killer poke' > When the first PETs (small 9" screen) models came out, the display > wasnt all > that fast. It wasn't too long before someone learned they could > impove the > character printing speed via a poke to location 59458; which would > set > the > video controller into a faster mode. It was a noticible improvement > of speed > on programs using PRINT often, it was kind of like a free upgrade. > It > was > mentioned in a few publications and used in many programs that > relied > on > printing to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor > Magazine, > a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the command in one > of > the > 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue which you could insert > into > their > game "joust" to make it play faster. > > Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs, > they > had >  improved display speed which made that POKE unnecessary. An > unfortunate side > effect was that the POKE to 59458 still caused the already faster > controller > to run even faster, in fact too-fast, which could result in damaging > the PETs > video curcuitry when left running. I discovered it by accident > after > our > school received some large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen > starts to > warp after about the third line and the display stops around the > fifth, the > keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this mode, the only > solution > is to turn it off, quickly! Fortunately none of the school's PETs > were > damaged due to this POKE. Later Cursor Magazine published a 'fix' > that would > allow older PETs to use the poke and keep the large-screen units > from > frying. > Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have this > fix. > > Prevention > Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games) when running > them > on a > large-screen PET and be ready with the power switch when you first > run > it. > I have usually found the 'killer poke' statement looking like this: > > POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32. > > The fix is to put an if-then conditional to determine if the poke is > needed > for the PET running the program, here is the code: > > IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 > > CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? > > With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite > singnal > from > the user port... > > Insert Video Diagram here.... > > WHAT ARE THE PINOUTS SO I CAN BUILD AN IEEE-488 CABLE FOR MY PET TO MY > DRIVE. > > WHERE CAN I GET SOFTWARE FOR MY PET? > > WHERE CAN I GET CONNECTORS THAT FIT THE USER/IEEE-488 PORTS? > > IS THERE A MODEM AVAILABLE FOR MY PET? > > I know of only one company that prosuced a modem and IEEE-488 > interface, the > company is TNW, and I think they also built the Commoodre 8010, an > acoustic > modem for the PET. I have some notes on using the device but have > never > actually seen one. > > Larry Anderson > > -- > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ > Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jul 22 18:11:49 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa's message of Tue, 22 Jul 1997 04:39:31 -0800 (PDT) References: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199707222311.QAA08977@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Tim Shoppa writes: > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for the > junk heap? No, but speaking for myself I am short on space at the moment (and don't see it getting better for a while), lacking organization (working on that one), short on time (which constrains both of the above), and short of space between my ears too (too doggone many learning experiences this last year or so and a medium-sized list of some I have yet to get to). This Sunday I told someone "you know, I sometimes think I should stop collecting and get to work with the stuff I have." Which is enough to fill one 10'x10' (figure 3mx3m) storage closet to where it's not too difficult to get to stuff and make a pretty good showing of boxed manuals and magnetic media in another. Certainly most of it needs some sort of work. And there are some minis in there amongst the micros: An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the moment but am keeping my eyes open. Two HP 3000/37 CPUs, and enough disk drives and other bits to make one of 'em work. Well, they're a little bit small for minis, at least if you consider just the CPU box. An HP Micro 3000GX, currently taking up space in my workroom, with a 7970E 1600BPI tape drive that gives the resident manager hives -- it's big and metal therefore it must be heavy, right? (I live in the apartment above her.) Can I call this a mini? It runs the same code that used to run on bigger 3000s, but it calls itself a "Micro" (and fits entirely in a little tower case that with packing material and box weighs 78 pounds -- what's that, 35kg?). Is it part of the colllection? Hard to say, I used to do real work on it, but I wouldn't part with it.... An HP 9000/520, but there we are straying away from minis into early 1980s supermicro/workstation sorts of things. Various manuals for the above, as well as other systems in the 3000 and 21xx families. Also manuals and print sets for a Nuclear Data ND812 mini. A few odd parts: HP 3000/III front door with panel (found this on a 19" rack at Foothill swap meet -- the guts were gone and I really don't need another empty 19" rack then or now); two HP 3000/CX front doors, goldenrod; probably other stuff that slips my mind right now. You may have noticed a preponderance of HP hardware in the above list. That is because it is what I know something about (have been doing stuff with 3000s for close to 20 years now, have dialed up 2000 time-shared BASIC systems way back when and know they are based on the 21xx-family CPUs (as are the early HP 1000 systems), and supported a product on the 9000/500 for a little while and came to appreciate its quirks). I don't know that much about DEC gear, and next to nothing about DG stuff -- never used it at all. Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't know. But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be micros than minis. There's another point in there too: I've consciously ignored DEC stuff (or passed it on to other more interested folks) for the simple reason that there seemed to me to be a pretty active community working on preserving it already! But DG stuff is another matter, I just haven't really noticed much of it or much discussion of it. OK Tim, you've guilt-tripped me...a little bit. But I'm still wondering what I could do with and learn from some of this stuff. What would I need to make a workable system? I expect the definition of "workable" is variable amongst the readership, but I could amuse myself for a while looking at an instruction set reference card and having Real Iron on which to toggle in a lights hack would be a nice bonus. (Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them. And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.) Maybe it takes more to interest other folks, like the ability to hook up and use terminal and/or storage devices. Maybe even load some sort of operating system if that's what was customary on these things; I'd probably want to get there someday myself. (Of course that poses its own problem of where to get the operating software.) I don't know, like I said I really don't know anything about DG hardware as it was used in practice -- my background is in DP/MIS, datacomm, HP 3000s, and nowadays sticking IP-protocol-suite stuff into Windows device drivers. Got any pointers to where we could learn more? -Frank McConnell From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 20:31:06 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:01 2005 Subject: RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT') In-Reply-To: <199707221453.AA14301@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707230131.AA20889@interlock.ans.net> > The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and > magenta at various times and combinations. It seems to me that the PDP-11/60s were in red cabinets (in fact, introduced as "the Big Red Machine"). William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 21:12:43 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <009B7A59.7361C1B3.1@siva.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199707230212.AA22618@interlock.ans.net> > A large estate car (Station wagon?) will carry a _lot_ of minicomputer > hardware. I've been in one which contained : I once delivered a PDP-11/34, 1 & 1/2 RK07 drives, roughly 20 RK07 disk packs, and lots of documentation, in a standard Ford Escort. Yes it was packed, but still quite decent. For those still confused, the 1/2 RK07 was just the actual drive mechanism. An entire RK07 is about 4 feet tall, the bottom is which is basically empty. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 22 21:03:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221642.AA26026@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E > Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the > argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one > word: "hogwash". > > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for > transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 > for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just > got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays > in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). I should've known better than to say that about my Honda. My point was that Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or transportation charges? Plus he's in Canada, and you'd have to deal with customs, which I'm sure can be gotten around. Storing the stuff is no problem as I have probably a ton of rackmount mini and s-100 equipment in my garage right now, and I love the stuff and enjoy collecting it. Getting it to my garage is another story. I would absolutely love to take a Nova off of Tim's hands but I'm not willing to spend the amount of money it would take to ship the equipment. > I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter > underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I > also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the > dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal > stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. Hmmm, well that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. I for one would not want to subject my wife to that. She has problem enough with the garage full of crap. > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out > to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are > doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. I agree. But some people have lines they draw with their collection. Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living space for the hobby. That's where I draw the line. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 21:32:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707230232.AA23225@interlock.ans.net> > Having a PDP-8/i system shipped out from Wisconsin set me back nearly $2k, > but I considered it to be worthwhile, and the person that had it worked > with me on the shipping arrangements. This amount seems quite excessive - you may have made the mistake of calling computer equipment "computer equipment". Let me explain (for the benefit of minicomputers everywhere). Freight companies charge mostly for what they are shipping, rather than how far or how much they are shipping. Computer equipment is shipped every day, and of course, some of it gets damaged. The freight companies have to pay for it (directly, or indirectly thru raised insurance costs). To cover for the inevitable damages, higher shipping rates are quoted. If some old computer is called "scrap electronics" (or oddly "transformers"), freight companies will quote rates quite low. After all, damaged scrap is still scrap - no insurance problems. For example, a guy I know shipped a 400 pound radio transmitter (BC-610, for you hams) from Houston to New York for under $200. Over 120 pounds or so, freight gets cheaper than UPS, RPS, or the other couriers. The catch is that you better crate the beasts up WELL, as they may get harse treatment. Building a crate for a six foot rack is not much of a hardship, as just about the cruddiest wood can be used. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 21:45:54 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <199707222311.QAA08977@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <199707230245.AA23623@interlock.ans.net> > An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no > memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, > though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one > day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the > moment but am keeping my eyes open. If you ever want cards in the future, I would start looking now. HP circuit boards are COMPLETELY gold plated (even under the green coating), and are loved by scrappers everywhere. > There's another point in there too: I've consciously ignored DEC stuff > (or passed it on to other more interested folks) for the simple reason > that there seemed to me to be a pretty active community working on > preserving it already! I must agree with you here. DEC makes great stuff (mostly), but so do some of the other guys. Personally, I am starting to shift into the IBM world, as it really has been ignored by historians (other than Paul Pierce (who must be laughing at us weenies and our problems storing minis and micros) and IBM itself). William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 22 22:46:25 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT') Message-ID: <199707230346.AA27534@world.std.com> <> The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and <> magenta at various times and combinations. < On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail was rumoured to have remarked: > [...] Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact > is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or > transportation charges? Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.) > [...] that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife > could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. [...] > She has problem enough with the garage full of crap. Oddly enough, Diana and I have been together now for the better part of a decade, and while she occasionally grumbles about my hobby, she supports it because she knows that it's important (not just to me, but for a larger cause as well). I believe the use of the term "crap" comes from fundamental misunderstandings of our common computing history. Sad. > Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems > (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living > space for the hobby. It all depends upon how seriously we take our hobby, doesn't it. (That was merely an observation, _not_ an editorial comment!) For what it's worth, an IMSAI is just about twice the size of a pdp11/23. And less than a quarter of the CPU power. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 22 23:09:28 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d58241.442453@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: % %I should've known better than to say that about my Honda. My point was %that Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact is, %who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or transportation %charges? Plus he's in Canada, and you'd have to deal with customs, which %I'm sure can be gotten around. Storing the stuff is no problem as I have %probably a ton of rackmount mini and s-100 equipment in my garage right %now, and I love the stuff and enjoy collecting it. Getting it to my %garage is another story. I would absolutely love to take a Nova off of %Tim's hands but I'm not willing to spend the amount of money it would %take to ship the equipment. I'd agree here with Sam. I'd be interested in a Nova (one of the machines I have dreamt about having) or even an eclipse, but I would have trouble paying for the transportation. If there're Novas or Eclipses around the Bay Area, I'd want to adopt them, but Canada's a little far away. %Hmmm, well that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife %could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. I for one %would not want to subject my wife to that. She has problem enough with %the garage full of crap. My wife has no problem (yet) with 'stuff' but paying to get them is what she doesn't quite like. Ben From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 22 23:09:24 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: DG Hardware Available In-Reply-To: <199707221345.AA25612@maddog.swec.com> References: <199707221345.AA25612@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: <33d6832e.679489@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:45:31 -0400, Carl Friend wrote: % We'd better save these machines while we can; Data General was, %at its zenith only about 20% of the size of DEC, and its install- %base was similar in scope. These machines are _not_ common, remain %useable today, and are a joy to look at and run. Don't let the %opportunity pass. If I were a few dollars richer, I'd grab at the chance to own a DG machine (Nova/Eclipse - does anyone have the machine that was in 'soul of a new machine'?). If someone were getting rid of something like that in the Bay Area, I have a station wagon to carry such stuff. But anything out of the Bay Area is too difficult to get especially if it's really big. Ben From danjo at xnet.com Tue Jul 22 23:18:03 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Stacy C. Morang wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here in B.C. - machines with full > > toggle-and-light front panels - and I'm unable to give them away. > > Repeated posts of the hardware lists to "classiccmp" have yielded > > virtually no interest, outside of a couple of truly heroic > > collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. > > I'd love to have one, but there's the usual two problems - one is that > B.C. is a really long way from Maine, and two, storage space (although if > you were on this corner of N. America I'd solve that one). > > I've always wanted something with a full panel, but 3 hr drives are > definitely about the limit. > > Now, if there was a bucket brigade..... > -stacy That's funny Stacy 8-) This is what I thought belonging to this group and the Classic Computer Rescue Squad was ALL about. I would like this to be a *normal* thing to do. Everyone who wants one - Talk to Tim. Tim puts a list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs view of shipping scrap across the boarder 8-) Sure - the hardest hit will be the first in the chain - but we ALL should be first at least ONCE! Then the next RS person in each direction goes to #1's location and we start splitting up the goodies. I am NOT saying you will get the item in 10 days. It might take months to sort it all out. If the first guy spends $200 on a truck and $100 on gas - so what - if he comes back with 30 boxes thats what $10 each? We got it as far as Washington or Oregon! The next guy spends $60 bucks on gas in his station wagon - ok - he gets 6 boxes and it comes to another $10. We would be in Idaho, Utah or California! The #1 guy gets to meet Tim - an honor in itself - but only really spent a weekend of time - he also gets some hardware of doc or boards or whatever - if he wants any - and if you set it up so the next crew is there to unload him - even better! In one weekend we could be almost a quarter across the US with some of it already delivered. The next weekend or even a month later (depending on storage 8-) the next leg goes. Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? Isaac and I have had a vision 8-) of a group of pickups and trailers all meeting in a cornfield in Nebraska with the associated "Chinese Fire Drill" of people running around sorting out shipments and maybe having a campfire or pot-luck dinner! God what a life it could be! You get to do a nice weekend drive - meet friends with the SAME interests as you - have a nice talk - do some drinking maybe and then back to the real world by Monday! Who could ask for more out of life? During the week set up to do it all over again, sort some shipments - meet people closer to you who can make it as a evening trip or even an overnighter. Poor over the docs you *said* you didn't want but - damn - that looks interesting. (Did I get wound up again?) BC -- My pen is at the bottom of a page, Which, being finished, here the story ends; 'Tis to be wished it had been sooner done, But stories somehow lengthen when begun. -- Byron From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 23:43:36 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: DG Hardware Available In-Reply-To: <33d6832e.679489@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199707230443.AA28851@interlock.ans.net> > machine (Nova/Eclipse - does anyone have the machine that was in 'soul > of a new machine'?). I have only ever seen one Eclipse MV/8000, and it was a II (series two? What was the difference?). I could have bought it for a buck, I do not know what I was thinking... William Donzelli william@ans.net From dlw at neosoft.com Tue Jul 22 19:12:25 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation & HP 2000s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199707230510.AAA19990@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 22 Jul 97 at 23:18, Brett wrote: > That's funny Stacy 8-) This is what I thought belonging to this group and > the Classic Computer Rescue Squad was ALL about. [Stuff on the Classic Computer Rescue Squad's Chinese Fire Drill] I love it! I'd be more than happy to throw in and get a truck and make a weekend run if it meant that I could get some DEC, HP, DG or other equipment, meet other collectors, and it would really work out like that. My place isn't big but when it comes to computer equipment, I make room. Hey, the kids LIKE camping outside. :-) With all the talk on minis, anyone know where I can get an HP 2000 or any info about them? That was the first system I programmed on and all I have left of the experience is an HP 2000 BASIC Pocket Guide and some punch tapes. Surprised I still have those given it was over 20 years ago. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From william at ans.net Wed Jul 23 00:11:56 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner In-Reply-To: <33D48651.4860@arrakis.es> Message-ID: <199707230511.AA29800@interlock.ans.net> > I own a Honeywell 716 Minicomputer, in running order. It´s a general > purpose 16-bit machine, with 128 KB of ferrite core memory, a cassette > tape device, a front panel as main console, and an ASR-33 Teletype as > operator's console. That sounds pretty cool. That is also quite a great deal of core - lucky you. > I´ve read somewhere (don´t know if it´s true) that first nodes in > Arpanet were Honeywell DDP 516. I think my system is the next model > (Honeywell DDP 716). In fact, mine can execute H-516's instructions set. RCS/RI will (hopefully) have one of the ARPAnet machines in the near future, to go with our old NSFnet stuff. I believe the model number is 316. Take a look at the RCS/RI page (if you can not connect, try a different day, as the machine may be powered down). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 00:19:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: HHCs (bad news) Message-ID: I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off. Due to a lack of communication within the company that had the units, they were all, in the words of Mike Westin who was the go-between in the deal, "shit-canned". The company simply threw them out because they did not know there was an offer tendered. On the positive side, there are still roughly 50-75 units still left within the company that are still being used by employees, and will be so for about the next two months. Mike is currently developing a new product for the company, at which time they will no longer use the remaining units, and they will then, hopefully, be sold to us. So for now, no HHCs. Its disappointing, mostly because the thought of all these nice systems being simply thrown out is a damn shame. However, we may yet be able to acquire the remaining units in a couple month's time. Stay tuned. Sorry all. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 00:47:54 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707230402.AAA00406@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail was rumoured > to have remarked: > > > [...] Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact > > is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or > > transportation charges? > > Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who > care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- > term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you Sure, I'll just needlessly add to my current mountain of debt. There is a practical limit to what any individual can do or be expected to do. I'm not going to over-burden myself over a hobby. Sure I take it seriously, but again, I've set limits. Someone else is just going to have to cover for me. > > [...] that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife > > could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. [...] > > She has problem enough with the garage full of crap. > > Oddly enough, Diana and I have been together now for the better > part of a decade, and while she occasionally grumbles about my hobby, > she supports it because she knows that it's important (not just to > me, but for a larger cause as well). > > I believe the use of the term "crap" comes from fundamental > misunderstandings of our common computing history. Sad. I believe your misunderstanding of my using the term "crap" comes from you taking me too literally. I love the stuff just as much as the next guy. But collectively, its a bunch of crap, just like a pile of stuff in the back yard in a corner would be called a pile of crap. If you saw my garage, you'd know why I refer to it as a pile of crap. Its a mess! There's stuff stacked haphazardly all over the place. Its a big pile of crap! :) > > Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems > > (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living > > space for the hobby. > > It all depends upon how seriously we take our hobby, doesn't it. Sorry if I can't be _Super Collector!_ Again, someone else will have to cover for me in this respect. Also, I'm just not as interested in older mini-computers as I am in micros. Micros take precedence because: a) I grew up in the age of the micro, b) they're easier to come by, c) they're normally easier to transport and store (yes they have odd shapes but generally they are smaller than a rackmount cabinet). When I own a warehouse, it will be filled with minis as well. Really though, I don't understand the point of arguing over this. Collect what you want. That's fine. Let me do the same. If my sole interest was, say, collecting Commodore 64's only with serial numbers starting with '1', that's my perogative. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 00:54:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges > a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs > view of shipping scrap across the boarder 8-) Sure - the hardest hit will > be the first in the chain - but we ALL should be first at least ONCE! Then > the next RS person in each direction goes to #1's location and we start > splitting up the goodies. I am NOT saying you will get the item in 10 > days. It might take months to sort it all out. If the first guy spends > $200 on a truck and $100 on gas - so what - if he comes back with 30 > boxes thats what $10 each? We got it as far as Washington or Oregon! The > next guy spends $60 bucks on gas in his station wagon - ok - he gets 6 > boxes and it comes to another $10. We would be in Idaho, Utah or > California! The #1 guy gets to meet Tim - an honor in itself - but only So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him incurred? > really spent a weekend of time - he also gets some hardware of doc or > boards or whatever - if he wants any - and if you set it up so the next > crew is there to unload him - even better! In one weekend we could be > almost a quarter across the US with some of it already delivered. The next > weekend or even a month later (depending on storage 8-) the next leg goes. Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I doubt it. > Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 > trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer > within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. > Isaac and I have had a vision 8-) of a group of pickups and trailers all > meeting in a cornfield in Nebraska with the associated "Chinese Fire > Drill" of people running around sorting out shipments and maybe having a > campfire or pot-luck dinner! God what a life it could be! You get to do > a nice weekend drive - meet friends with the SAME interests as you - have > a nice talk - do some drinking maybe and then back to the real world by > Monday! Who could ask for more out of life? During the week set up to do > it all over again, sort some shipments - meet people closer to you who can > make it as a evening trip or even an overnighter. Poor over the docs you > *said* you didn't want but - damn - that looks interesting. This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jul 23 01:09:25 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: William Donzelli's message of Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:45:54 -0400 (EDT) References: <199707230245.AA23623@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <199707230609.XAA01934@daemonweed.reanimators.org> William Donzelli writes: > > An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no > If you ever want cards in the future, I would start looking now. HP > circuit boards are COMPLETELY gold plated (even under the green coating), > and are loved by scrappers everywhere. Good point. If you want to see something really scary in that regard, open up an HP 9000 series 5xx and look at the CPU boards. Those *really* look like gold, closer to solid than plated. I was looking (mostly for the memory) a bit more intensely a couple of years ago, and found that 2100 parts were also in demand to keep running systems running. > I must agree with you here. DEC makes great stuff (mostly), but so do > some of the other guys. Personally, I am starting to shift into the IBM > world, as it really has been ignored by historians (other than Paul > Pierce (who must be laughing at us weenies and our problems storing minis > and micros) and IBM itself). Yep. The mini world was kind of wide there for a while. I expect some of those machines really are gone forever. Has anyone here ever heard of a company called Digital Systems Corporation, based somewhere in (I think) the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC in the late 1970s, maybe into the 1980s? I worked on something of theirs once, called a Galaxy/5. Never heard of it or them since. Come to think of it, there could be good reasons for that, and it could be a good thing. Nah...we've got to keep the failures around too -- learning from mistakes is so much better when they're someone else's mistakes. -Frank McConnell From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jul 23 01:14:11 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: HHCs (bad news) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the > Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off. Gee, can you say Bait and Switch? He now has 400 units he KNOWS are worth over $4000! If he can get $10 -heck he can get $30 - That's $12000 worth! Oh ya - the deals off! Heck I would try for $50 each - Heck of a deal isn't it? Not blaming you Sam, but I am starting to think maybe we should cut our own deals with *bulk* owners. It seems we may be trying to put out the fire with gasoline 8-( He now thinks he has at east 300 *hungry* customers out there! BC From bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu Mon Jul 21 21:25:42 1997 From: bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu (Rob Bedeaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? Message-ID: <33d5b1230dc8015@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> Hi all: This is my first post to ClassicCMP. Let me just start by sayin it is great to see how much interest there is out there in different Classic Computers!! I recently aquired an Apple Lisa and was wondering if anyone out there also had a working model. So far, I have a copy of the Lisa Office System, the Lisa Tools, and MacWorks XL. What I'd like to find out is what other software for it was available and if anyone wants to get rid of it :) I know there is the workshop environment for programmin in Pascal, and I think a version of Unix and Basic were realeased. But what about Fortan? Also on the hardware side. Does anyone know of any cards that were made for the expansion bays. I know that a parallel card was available, and also something called a Priam Card. Anything else? Let's see one final question. What about printer support. Was it limited to the Imagewriter I, Apple DMP and the daisy wheel one (can't remember the name). Can one use the Imagewriter II? How about other printers? Well thanks to anyone with any info Rob From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 08:48:32 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals Message-ID: <009B7ACD.A9E0A2E1.15@siva.bris.ac.uk> [...] >And there are some minis in there amongst the micros: > >An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no >memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, >though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one >day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the >moment but am keeping my eyes open. I found one of those in a skip (literally!) a few years back, and was allowed to rescue it. Mine came as the CPU box with 32K (I think) core, a lot of I/O cards (or at least I assume that's what they are), a paper tape reader and a somewhat mangled cartridge disk drive (1 fixed platter, one RK05-like cartridge). Alas no manuals. It looks like it could be got to run again, but as I know nothing about it, I've not put any time in on it yet.... > >Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably >learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I >am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot >of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or >maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't >know. > >But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things >that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know >anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower >selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected >learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And >for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be >micros than minis. I swap between the 2 'modes'. Sometimes I'll get a machine because I know what it is, and because I remember it. The Tandy M4 I bought a couple of weeks ago fits in here - I grew up on a Tandy Model 1, and remember the M4 coming out. I wanted one then, but could never afford it. Now I can, and can run those programs from 80-micro.... But more often I get a machine because I have no idea what it is, but it looks interesting. The P850 (the machine that seriously started me collecting) fits in here. As do the PERQs - I thought it was a 68000 box when I got the first one, and was amazed to see a soft-microcoded CPU. Learning from such a machine is great fun... [...] >(Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of >hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I I certainly grab schematics and printsets without the hardware that goes with them - you never know what will turn up later.... >mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them. >And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in >terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.) It's not that hard. What started me off was getting a relatively simple minicomputer - I'd recomend either the PDP8/e or the PDP11/05 as a starter, and sitting down with the machine, the technical manual, and the printsets. I single-stepped the machine, and watched how it executed an instruction with a logic probe. I where the microcode went, what gates were enabled, etc, and related it to the diagrams in the manual. After a couple of days I could understand most of the instructions.... >Got any pointers to where we could learn more? Yep... CPU Technical manuals from the late 1960's - early 1970's. Most of those include a gate-level description of the CPU operation. It helps a lot to have the machine in front of you, though. > >-Frank McConnell -tony From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 08:50:40 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7ACD.F5C633F6.32@siva.bris.ac.uk> >For those still confused, the 1/2 RK07 was just the actual drive >mechanism. An entire RK07 is about 4 feet tall, the bottom is which is >basically empty. One design of RK07 stand can be modified to mount the drive about 12" hight than it should be. In my case this gave me a mounting for an EMI magtape and 4 flip-chip backplanes with no extra floor area. Not quite original DEC, of course.... > >William Donzelli -tony From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 08:53:54 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7ACE.699B2EFD.4@siva.bris.ac.uk> > Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who >care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- >term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you >don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this >happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.) Depends on the micro. While IMHO it's true that Apple ]['s, PET's, TRS-80, etc are not exactly hard to find, there are some rather rare machines, like the Tandy Deluxe CoCo (something like 2 exist), a prototype Acorn that I can't remember the name of (M4???), the HH tiger (Prototype only), etc that are somewhat hard to find. It's quite possible that the next one of those that you see is the last! >| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -tony From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jul 23 02:46:20 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221800.TAA11407@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy > Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real > pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? > I have 3 3B1 type machines which have a configuration similar to PETs. One is sitting on the floor of the computer room and the other two are in storage racks in the garage. Storage racks are the only way to store these machines. it is best to get the kind which have adjustable shelves so it is possible to minimize the wasted space between the monitor and the next shelf. If one lives in earthquake country I recommend that these machines be secured or placed on lower shelves. First, you don't want to loose your machines, and second, one of these things falling on you from any height can cause a good deal of damage. > On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are > normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you > get with a micro. Exactly. The above mentioned machines came with 4 cubic feet of software and documentation. I have one complete set, and part of another. This takes up more space than a single 3B1. Then on the other hand, I have been lucky(?) in a few cases and have picked up complete micro systems where the software and docs take up more space than the micro itself. Boxed micros also stack nicely, but they are hard to use that way. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html stty: TCGETS: Operation not supported on socket Dumpster Heydon Jul Kevan Ok PETs Tandy Tue docs http machines.html pcoad pec www.crl.com From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Wed Jul 23 08:16:17 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <199707231316.AA28645@maddog.swec.com> On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:47:54 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail remarked: > Sure, I'll just needlessly add to my current mountain of debt. > There is a practical limit to what any individual can do or be > expected to do. I'm not going to over-burden myself over a hobby. Sorry about that, Sam. I didn't think the cattle-prod was turned on. :-) ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 23 09:46:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jul 22, 97 07:03:32 pm Message-ID: <9707231346.AA24548@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970723/d9484f88/attachment.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jul 23 09:51:07 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Stacy C. Morang wrote: > > I'd love to have one, but there's the usual two problems - one is that > > B.C. is a really long way from Maine, and two, storage space (although if > > you were on this corner of N. America I'd solve that one). > > > > Now, if there was a bucket brigade..... > > That's funny Stacy 8-) This is what I thought belonging to this group and > the Classic Computer Rescue Squad was ALL about. I would like this to be > a *normal* thing to do. Everyone who wants one - Talk to Tim. Tim puts a > list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges > a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs > view of shipping scrap across the boarder 8-) Sure - the hardest hit will > be the first in the chain - but we ALL should be first at least ONCE! Then > the next RS person in each direction goes to #1's location and we start Hard to say if Stacy will will see anything up in Maine by that time or not -- looks like by the time Bill Donzelli and I get finished divvying up what gets to the NY Metro area, there might not be much of a load to pass on to New England. And yes, I'm interested in one of the machines myself, but being at the wrong edge of the continent definitely has its drawbacks. Now if my fiancee's father would die so I can move to Thermopolis Wyoming and buy the bookstore there, I'd be able to schedule all sorts of little trips. But it looks like he's good for another decade or so which keeps me trapped here in New Jersey. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 23 10:04:38 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... Message-ID: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 23 11:27:16 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jul 23, 97 08:04:38 am Message-ID: <9707231527.AA24613@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970723/b7940726/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jul 23 10:57:20 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 2nd: a number of DECStation 2100 and 3100 series units. (along with > various peripherals and expantion boxes. > > What are they, and what do they run? (and docs?) I have one, it runs VMS 5.3 (VAXServer 3100) I am talking to the VAX guy at ATS (CAterpillar branch) about it. They have an 11/780 out there, in full working order and DOING SOMETHING USEFUL!! Quite an impressive show, these guys really use the thing! And if/when they get rid of it, guess who's first in line to get it! Lucky for me the man who runs it is a nice guy. And for about $100-200, I may be able to get my hands on an 8550. Assuming I can re-assemble it, it's been taken apart. From scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu Wed Jul 23 11:27:30 1997 From: scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > > > list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges > > a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs > > .... > So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the > accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him > incurred? > If I win the lottery between now and then, yeah, no problem. Otherwise I can't justify spending anywhere near $600 for this stuff. > Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and > transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I > doubt it. If I were in a more central spot, the time wouldn't be a big problem, but a bunch of DG's stored in the rain might not be such a good idea. > > Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 > > trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer > > within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? > > You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way > to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I > wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. Neither would I. The bucket brigade thingy only really works if there are enough people involved so that no one is inconvenienced enough to require additional compensation. An 8-10 hour drive (and long distance phone calling) is more than a little expense for me, anyway. > This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I > would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as > it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. Very true. I have lots of projects and the rest of the family to attend to as well. -stacy -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 11:41:02 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: HHCs (bad news) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the > > Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off. > > Gee, can you say Bait and Switch? He now has 400 units he KNOWS are worth > over $4000! If he can get $10 -heck he can get $30 - That's $12000 worth! > Oh ya - the deals off! Heck I would try for $50 each - Heck of a deal > isn't it? Ok, this is EXACTLY the type of response I didn't want to see. This is pure speculation and is simply not the case and I regret your insinuation. I have no reason to believe Mike is being misleading or dishonest with me. He was basically doing us a favor, and I doubt he is foolish enough to think he can get $50 for one of these units on the open market. Mike is an Engineer. He owns a company that designs custom hardware for other companies. He knows what current market value is on older computer hardware. He understands the cycles. He was amazed anyone was interested in these units to begin with, and is somewhat fascinated with the premise of this discussion group. If anyone else has any concerns about what happened with this deal, I would appreciate your e-mailing me directly instead of filling the discussion group with noise. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 12:02:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <9707231346.AA24548@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > These obstacles pose no difficulties to folks who try to buy > IMSAI's from me - I've had people fly across a continent or drive > hundreds of miles to buy an IMSAI. Yet you claim that the same > difficulties are nearly insurmountable > when the machine in question is quite a bit rarer than an IMSAI, > a little bit larger and heavier than an IMSAI, but not nearly > as trendy as an IMSAI. I'm willing to bet the situation would > change instantly if there was an LA Times article about the > high collectiblity of Novae and Eclipses. I wouldn't know as I'm not concerned with the "collectibility" aspect. If I could find the system locally, I would take it. I'll admit I had the misconception that mini's are somewhat cumbersome to deal with, but after realizing that there are a variety of about eighteen S-100, Q-bus and Multi-bus systems sitting in my garage, getting them there isn't the big deal. However, and my argument is, I would be loath to spend the money it would take to ship one of these systems from somewhere else in the country. All of the systems I have now have been picked up within a 70 mile radius, all transported in my Honda (one time I brought home 3 IMSAIs, a NorthStar Horizon, a Vector 1, twelve 8" disk boxes, a dumb terminal, 3 Cromemco dual 8" drive units, and one IMSAI dual 8" drive unit in my Honda, and that wasn't even my most ambitious haul), so I know it can be done. > I suppose I am partly to blame in the equation. My initial > posts made it sound like the Data General stuff wasn't worth > its weight in scrap metal. (Believe me, after lugging around > thousands of pounds of stuff, I sometimes think this myself...) > I like the stuff - some of it is just beautiful - and I was > hoping to convince others collectors of this as well. I've learned my > lesson: from now on, it's no longer "Bring a truck and it's yours"! > Instead, I'll whip the media into a wild frenzy... :-) I think the problem is (at least for me it is) that it is simply not practical to make a drive up to Canada to retrieve the stuff or have it shipped from there. If it was something dinky like an Apple or an Atari, then sure, it would be easy. Also, I'm waiting until I run into that stuff locally. I live in the computer mecca of the world. I'm bound to run into one of everything sooner or later. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 23 12:36:49 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d74013.176991339@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: %then sure, it would be easy. Also, I'm waiting until I run into that %stuff locally. I live in the computer mecca of the world. I'm bound to %run into one of everything sooner or later. I'm not so sure that it'll be easier to find things in the Bay Area. Things here seem to change faster than elsewhere in the world, at least technologically. The latest toys seem to be easier to get. Companies rise and fall at a phenomenal rate... Hence, many old machines have probably been long thrown away. In other parts of the country/world, the push to acquire the latest technologies may be absent and hence many places may still be using machines from the 1970s/80s. Correct me if I'm wrong. Family obligations sometimes prevent me from scrouging around a lot so my experiences are limited. Ben From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 23 12:31:23 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d63b00.175692032@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:44:04 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: % %I think you're reading too much into this. Jobs wasn't against the II. %On the other hand, he WAS for the Mac. John Sculley killed the Apple ][. Zap me if you have to, but I have never been fond of Apple the company nor its products. The Apple II was great for the first few years. After that, it was over priced and under powered. They stuck with a 1MHz processor when other people did a 2MHz one (e.g. BBC Micro). Hell, even Ohio Scientific had 2MHz 6502 boards in the 1970s! Lots of people also had 4MHz Z80-based computers (which are faster than a 1MHz 6502 but not a 2MHz 6502). When people like Commodore had better sound and graphics systems, the Apple II was 'upgraded' to IIe and IIc which did not add anything much to the basic machine. I was not surprised when the Mac 128K was over priced and under powered too. That had been Apple's strategy for the II : get as much profit as possible for lousy hardware. If they had stuck with the basic promise of a computer for the common man (the initial marketing line for the Mac), they would have had a better long term success. The Ataris and Amigas were incredibly successful in Europe because they were cheaper than the Apple IIs at that time. Interestingly enough, a very old issue of Byte magazine mentioned that Apple was in serious trouble in 1985. I can't remember the exact details. If anyone's interested, I can look it up (read the article a week ago while going on a nostalgia trip). That apple is still in trouble (12 years later) does not surprise me at all. Just blowing off steam. Sorry if it's off topic. Ben From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jul 23 12:56:08 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACB5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Welcome! Which Lisa model do you have? I have a Lisa 2/10 that is almost working. The hard drive install of Sun's version of MacWorks is apparently corrupt and it doesn't boot completely (or needs a boot floppy that I don't have). I'm loathe to fix the MacWorks install because I'd rather run the Lisa Office System. Problem is, the Lisa Office System is serialized, and, once installed, it will only reinstall on the same Lisa. There are some outfits around that will sell copies of the uninstalled disks for $170, which is a bit steep. I have an acquaintance at a local computer recycler who has a set and is willing to let me borrow them, but I'll have to set up a PC with two 720K drives (which I don't have handy) and a Copy II Option Board (which I do have) to dupe them. Kai > ---------- > From: Rob Bedeaux[SMTP:bede0005@gold.tc.umn.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 7:25 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? > > Hi all: > > This is my first post to ClassicCMP. Let me just start by sayin it is > > great to see how much interest there is out there in different Classic > > Computers!! > > I recently aquired an Apple Lisa and was wondering if anyone out there > > also had a working model. So far, I have a copy of the Lisa Office > System, the Lisa Tools, and MacWorks XL. What I'd like to find out is > > what other software for it was available and if anyone wants to get > rid > of it :) I know there is the workshop environment for programmin in > Pascal, and I think a version of Unix and Basic were realeased. But > what > about Fortan? Also on the hardware side. Does anyone know of any > cards > that were made for the expansion bays. I know that a parallel card > was > available, and also something called a Priam Card. Anything else? > Let's > see one final question. What about printer support. Was it limited > to > the Imagewriter I, Apple DMP and the daisy wheel one (can't remember > the > name). Can one use the Imagewriter II? How about other printers? > Well > thanks to anyone with any info > > Rob > From bede0005 at tc.umn.edu Wed Jul 23 13:08:39 1997 From: bede0005 at tc.umn.edu (Rob Bedeaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACB5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Welcome! > > Which Lisa model do you have? I have a Lisa 2/10 that is almost > working. The hard drive install of Sun's version of MacWorks is > apparently corrupt and it doesn't boot completely (or needs a boot > floppy that I don't have). I'm loathe to fix the MacWorks install > because I'd rather run the Lisa Office System. I have a Lisa 2/10. Right now I am looking for a Lisa Mouse (Not a Mac one which does work on the Lisa), a parallel interface card and a ProFile external Hard Drive. > > Problem is, the Lisa Office System is serialized, and, once installed, > it will only reinstall on the same Lisa. There are some outfits around > that will sell copies of the uninstalled disks for $170, which is a bit > steep. I have an acquaintance at a local computer recycler who has a > set and is willing to let me borrow them, but I'll have to set up a PC > with two 720K drives (which I don't have handy) and a Copy II Option > Board (which I do have) to dupe them. > > Kai > ***The serialization for the Lisa Office System and its tools IS removable, if you have a Macintosh. I have the specs to do this. Basically, you use a sector editor on a copy of the Lisa Tools disk and remove the serial number that has been placed onto the disk. Rob From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Wed Jul 23 13:13:11 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: ; from Marvin on Sun, Dec 31, 2097 at 04:00:00PM +0000 References: <33d74013.176991339@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <19970723131311.50320@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 ^^^^ From: Marvin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is that win 1895? :-) m@ [...] > My experience is that most computer hobbiests/hackers/engineers/etc. > tend to keep everything, especially when they have used to the stuff > before. As such, most people I know would much rather give it away than > throw it away ... and unless they have already given it away, they > probably still have it :)! -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From starling at umr.edu Wed Jul 23 18:01:04 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? In-Reply-To: from "Rob Bedeaux" at Jul 23, 97 01:08:39 pm Message-ID: <199707232301.SAA28774@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Hi, Rob (& other Lisa owners) I have a Lisa 2/5 that I love very much. However, she's been a bit ill lately and seems to have toaster her Lisa Lite board, or else her Parallel card. > I have a Lisa 2/10. Right now I am looking for a Lisa Mouse (Not a Mac > one which does work on the Lisa), a parallel interface card and a ProFile > external Hard Drive. My Lisa mouse is also dead... HOWEVER... the _ORIGINAL_ Mac mouse will allegedly work with it. I forget the exact part number, but it's the one that came with the Mac 128 and Mac 512. I'm not sure if a Mac Plus mouse will work or not. The mouse for the Apple II series is exactly the same as well. I plan to hunt one of them down and replace the guts so that the mouse case is still the same. > ***The serialization for the Lisa Office System and its tools IS > removable, if you have a Macintosh. I have the specs to do this. > Basically, you use a sector editor on a copy of the Lisa Tools disk and > remove the serial number that has been placed onto the disk. Cool... Think maybe you could send me this information or point me to a web page that has the info on it? I'd really like to back up my software so that I can use it if I get another Lisa. For good Lisa info, I highly recomend Tom Stepleton's webpage at: http://galena.tj.edu.inter.net/~tom/ chris starling From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jul 23 18:12:36 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > > days. It might take months to sort it all out. If the first guy spends > > $200 on a truck and $100 on gas - so what - if he comes back with 30 > > boxes thats what $10 each? We got it as far as Washington or Oregon! The > > next guy spends $60 bucks on gas in his station wagon - ok - he gets 6 > > boxes and it comes to another $10. We would be in Idaho, Utah or > > California! The #1 guy gets to meet Tim - an honor in itself - but only > > So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the > accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him > incurred? I am suprised every time I put (what I thought was) simple math on the Internet 8-) 10 hours of driving at about 50mph gives you 500 miles. This is a two way trip so you get 250 8-) Now there are two trips. One to get and one to get rid of. That's a total of 500 miles and $20 bucks (as an average) Ten total trips gives you about 5000 miles and gee $200 dollars AT MOST. Last time I looked at a map 8-) 5000 miles gets you from Alaska to Florida - am I confused? If you do NOT wnat to do it - DON'T - that's simple. But if I was driving thru on Thursday night and had the last known working Cray - I don't think I stop by your house either 8-) I'd go straight home 8-) The trips don't have to be done until it is economically feasible and the intermediate has suffucient storage. Why drive from Chicago to Minneapolis for ONE box - make it worth your while! > > really spent a weekend of time - he also gets some hardware of doc or > > boards or whatever - if he wants any - and if you set it up so the next > > crew is there to unload him - even better! In one weekend we could be > > almost a quarter across the US with some of it already delivered. The next > > weekend or even a month later (depending on storage 8-) the next leg goes. > > Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and > transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I > doubt it. If you don't have the time or the inclination - DON'T! And no Sam, I don't think you talk for everyone here 8-) > > Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 > > trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer > > within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? > > You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way > to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I > wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. No Sam I guess you don't. Others however think it nice to have an excuse to fire up that old Army Duece and a half and go on a wild weekend of cruising at the speed limit to save something for someone else, meet new people, draw looks of amazement as wierd boxes and books get exchanged at the local K-Mart parking lot. > > Isaac and I have had a vision 8-) of a group of pickups and trailers all > > meeting in a cornfield in Nebraska with the associated "Chinese Fire > > Drill" of people running around sorting out shipments and maybe having a > > campfire or pot-luck dinner! God what a life it could be! You get to do > > a nice weekend drive - meet friends with the SAME interests as you - have > > a nice talk - do some drinking maybe and then back to the real world by > > Monday! Who could ask for more out of life? During the week set up to do > > it all over again, sort some shipments - meet people closer to you who can > > make it as a evening trip or even an overnighter. Poor over the docs you > > *said* you didn't want but - damn - that looks interesting. > > This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I > would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as > it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. Well, some of us don't have a life 8-) And then some of us USE our hobby to do something that we normally wouldn't do in the first place. BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jul 23 18:27:55 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Stacy C. Morang wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the > > accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him > > incurred? > > If I win the lottery between now and then, yeah, no problem. Otherwise I > can't justify spending anywhere near $600 for this stuff. Please refer to previous post 8-) > > Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and > > transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I > > doubt it. > > If I were in a more central spot, the time wouldn't be a big problem, but > a bunch of DG's stored in the rain might not be such a good idea. Remember tho the people who do this must have storage available - even if it is just left in the van for a week. It is NOT for everyone! > > You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way > > to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I > > wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. > > Neither would I. The bucket brigade thingy only really works if there are > enough people involved so that no one is inconvenienced enough to require > additional compensation. An 8-10 hour drive (and long distance phone > calling) is more than a little expense for me, anyway. Well, we CERTAINLY wouldn't want to burden the Internet with HUGE VOLUMES of email. Damn right - grab that phone NOW! 8-) > > This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I > > would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as > > it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. > > Very true. I have lots of projects and the rest of the family to attend > to as well. Well, I am NOT saying do it EVERY weekend and I am NOT saying to do it if you can't. Not everybody is a Brain Surgen either 8-) I am simply trying to get computers that someone ELSE wants along - maybe - with the stuff I want. Maybe meet some nice people along the way. It doesn't hurt. As far as time and money - what else won't you do for your hobby????? What DO you HAVE for a hobby that DOESN'T take Time and Money????? I have NEVER HAD a hobby that didn't consume Time and Money! Isn't THAT what hobbies do? BC From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jul 23 20:31:18 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970724113118.009d5100@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 03:57 PM 7/23/97 +0000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Lucky for me the man who runs it is a nice guy. And for about $100-200, I >may be able to get my hands on an 8550. Assuming I can re-assemble it, >it's been taken apart. This may be a real challenge. The Nautilus based systems (8800, 88x0, 8700, 85x0) have an interesting back plane using zif sockets. When the systems run they run, but when they go bad, they're horrible to fix. I spent a fair part of the last three years doing user maintenance on 8800s and an 8820 and I can tell you now that fixing these beasts can be a real pain. In particular, the diagnostics are unreliable at best. Even the professionals have problems, we had a Digital maintained 8800 die and after two weeks of three engineers they finally decided to ship a new system down from Sydney. Fortunately we managed to convince management to upgrade to newer systems. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 23 21:23:21 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970723192409.3a1f9512@mail.crl.com> At 12:42 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one >word: "hogwash". My HP3000 (with HD's and cart tape) is in a case slightly larger (wider, possibly a bit deeper) than a standard full tower. The 9-track tape drive, of course, is in it's own 6-ft enclosure, but if I were smart, I could fit all the other 3000 bits inside the (empty) bottom. Hmmm... Wonder why I never thought of that before? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 23 21:23:24 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970723192413.3a1fade2@mail.crl.com> At 07:00 PM 7/22/97 +0100, you wrote: >Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy >Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real >pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? Shelves. If you face them towards each other: _ _ |_\_ _/_| You can slip light boxes or what-have-you in between. Of course, us really *smart* people concentrate on portables... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 23 21:23:27 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970723192416.3a1f9974@mail.crl.com> At 12:02 AM 7/23/97 -0400, you wrote: > Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who >care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- >term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you Well, I would gladly spend hundreds, or even thousands of dollars to save computers (and misc. other stuff I collect) from around the world. Problem is, I'm lucky if I've got enough $ to save me from going hungry. I'm not complaining, mind you (it's my own fault, really; spending all this money on silly computers and land rovers and stuff...) but just pointing out that a lot (most?) people simply *CAN'T* blow $200 on shipping a computer or what-have-you. Doesn't do much good to get an HP3000 series 3 if you then have to rip the guts out to live in it. I get the same story from people who say "Oh, you really ought to join the Y/club/whatever, it's not expensive" when what they really mean is "it's not expensive for me, but hey, I just bought a $50K BMW for my kid's 15th birthday." (I think there are those who get BMW's for their birthday, and those who get underwear. I got underwear.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jul 23 22:59:44 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 122 References: <199707230702.AAA10544@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33D6D331.6681@goldrush.com> From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk Subject: PET FAQ > What about the 8200 Series? I am not sure of the differences between this, the > 8000 series and the 500/700 (B/P) series - see my post earlier this week. I don't have ANY information on the 8200 series, I suspect that it was not widely released (or not at all) in the U.S. The 500/700 series are not in the PET line, those are the B-series machines and would be a separate FAQ - IMO. >> Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): >> PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) >> - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys > I dispute this. The 2001 xN, of which we had several at school, had the new > ROMs, the new motherboard (using 2332 ROM chips) but the small keyboard and the > built in C2N. This was the essential difference between the N and B machines. Have to disagree with you on this one, the 'calaulator keyboard' PETs seem to have the designation on 2001-8k or 2001-8/c (c referring to calculator keyboard). The N designation meant [N]on Business and [B]usiness style keyboards, both full-size, can find many sales ads and books to refer to on that one (though if I were running a business on a PET, I would have preferred the keyboard with the most keys...) >> - Upgrade ROMs >> - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. >> - many with clearer green on black displays >I thought all the N and B machines had green screens - we even had one straight >2001 (old ROM) with a green screen. I think Commodore still had extras in stock (also small yeyboards & tops), the blue screens aren't common but tere are some in later models (kinda like finding VIC-20 keyboards in C-64 units) >> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > Was this not only available as an upgrade? I am going by personal experience here, there were 8" diaply PETs sold with 4.0, I saw a couple come through our school. >> PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) >> - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) >> - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) >> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed >> - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. > Our green-screened old-ROM machine was labelled CBM, but was again a small > keyboard/internal tape machine. Otherwise I remember little about the B > machines Hmmm, I have yet to see such an animal... But as I mentioned a few answers back, with Commodore's thriftyness anything was possible. :) >> PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > I wasn't aware of a small keyboard 4000 series. Interesting. Again, N does not mean small keyboard. >> 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) >Can it?!? I wasn't aware of this. You can restrict the area in which it prints >on the screen to an arbitrary rectangle, but it doesn't behave like the >40-column machines in that the screen is still physically 80-column, it doesn't >handle wrapped text, etc. On many of the Commodore P.D. disks there is a program called 4032.C (I think there is a .C on it...) it will bump your 8000 into a 40 columns to run the 40 column programs on the disk. > The 8200 series could be set from 80 to 40 columns by unsoldering and moving two > chips. I haven't done this to mine yet... Never heard of 'moving' chips, I read it was one of the ROMs (the one that supplies the startup values...) that determined 40 or 80 column (as well as video RAM memory too.) I guess you mean replacing two chips, then yes. Going back to 40 is a bit easier since you don't have to add RAM like in the 4000 PETs. > At this point you must mention the 8296 and 8296D! I'll have to dig up some solid info on this, as 'I said it is pretty uncommon here. >[... SUPERPET ...] Got one, still puzzles me, also how much space I should devote to it as I have only seen one (the one I bought recently). Will probably add more as I get more time and information not very many people have asked about them. >> MOTHERBOARD SERIES >> >> 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) >> IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 >> +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ >> ! # ! #! >> ! # ! #! >> ! # exp ! #! exp >> ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus >> ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! >> ! # ! #! >> ! ! ! ! >> ! ! ! ! >> ! ROMS ! ! ! >> ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! >> ! ! ! ! >>tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! >> #1 # ! #2 # ! >> +--------------------+ +--------------------+ >The left hand board is a hybrid of the original motherboard (of which there were >no fewer than _four_ versions). Remember the original motherboard used 2 >kilobyte (800 Hex) ROM chips (6540s in most, 2316s in some). The ROMS were >therefore not F E D C A B 9 but F8 F0 E D8 D0 C8 C0 'Programming the PET/CBM' gave me those diagrams and you are right about the ROM sizes... Will have to re-do that one. >The righthand motherboard was the 2000B and some of the 3000 - the tape ports >were swapped on the 2000N and other 3000 AFAIK. Will keep with Programming PET/CBMs numbering for now, I'm trying to answer questions not confuse people more... They should suffice all my machines except the original (of course) have the tape #2 on the inside. > 8200 series: Again this basic format, but rearranged so the separate keyboard > mod is sensible. 128k RAM on motherboard of which 96k usable (?). Again I have no data on the 8200 PET/CBMs, point me toward your FAQ on it... *grin* >> WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? >> Original ROMs >> Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are >> limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine >> language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory >> location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for >> lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a >> while to compile them) >Some of these were not bugs but features. [so Microsoft would have Commodore believe...] >Peeking and poking in upper memory (thresholds vary!) were disabled to stop people >looking at the ROMS. [Common among early micros fortunately Commodore learend the > 'closed box means no 3rd party support' lesson early] >In the E page are some I/O addresses, so it is re-enabled from there upwards... >The only other genuine bugs I came across on my own machine (my first ever >computer was a PET - original ROMs, 13th birthday present in 1980) were one in >screen editing, and the machine crashes instead of giving the "too many files" >error. Just skimmed a bit about bugs with the Cassette routines. There was some usage problems on the PEEKs warning not to cluster them too close together... Facinating stuff... >> Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. >Only in 8000 series and fat 40, AFAIK. The small screen 4000 series did not >have the new screen controller or many of the new graphics features. I think you're right on that... still have to research that one more. >> HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? >> The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some)... >TIM stood for Terminal Interface Monitor, according to my manual. Jim butterfield referred to it as Tiny Monitor in the First Book of VIC, thanks for the clarification. >> WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT?..... >[ Explanation with one or too inaccuracies has been snipped ] >The old "video controller" could not be put into a faster or a slower mode. It >was discrete TTL, and simply read the screen memory, shoved it through the >character ROM, and sent it to the monitor. It would not have affected printing >speed even if you had speeded it up. >The old PETs were slow because the SOFTWARE of the print character routine >waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the screen memory. >This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which would have resulted in random >pixels (snow) being illuminated on the screen. There was an input on one of the >I/O chips which was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when >to access the video RAM. >The famous poke was actually to another register of the I/O chip, and configured >this input as an output. The older pets didn't mind (much!), and the print >character routine saw the screen as always available, but on the later ones with >the new video controller, this conflicted with another output and caused the >video controller chip to do a wobbly (and could even have burnt out one or the >other). Will re-work that one, thanks for the description. >> IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 >NO!!!!!! Peek(50000) will only be zero on the original old ROM pets! Hmmm I know that program works on the big screen units... more research! >> CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? >> With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from >> the user port... >> Insert Video Diagram here.... >Don't use the one published in "The PET Revealed" by Nick Hampshire. It doesn't >work. DANG! It was such a neat plan too! Guess I'll have to forget that question for now (until I can find an alternative diagram.) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 24 00:20:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: HHCs Message-ID: One final word on the Panasonic hand-helds... I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units are liberated, they will be up for grabs. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but Mike mentioned that he would see if we could just get them for free if we pick up the shipping from Canada, since the company didn't seem interested in making a buck on them anyway. When the time arrives I'll bring it up. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 24 10:38:59 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 23, 97 03:57:20 pm Message-ID: <9707241439.AA26873@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 705 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970724/42c318ec/attachment.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jul 24 10:04:35 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: <9707241439.AA26873@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > 2nd: a number of DECStation 2100 and 3100 series units. (along with > > > various peripherals and expantion boxes. > > > > > > What are they, and what do they run? (and docs?) > > > > I have one, it runs VMS 5.3 (VAXServer 3100) > Misread that. Now turning red. > If it runs VMS, you do *not* have a DECstation. A VS3100 is what you > have, Daniel. A DECstation is not a VAX and does not run VMS. (Though > it will run Ultrix and - I just discovered - NetBSD. See > http://www.netbsd.org/). > > > I am talking to the VAX guy at ATS (CAterpillar branch) about it. They > > have an 11/780 out there, in full working order and DOING SOMETHING > > USEFUL!! > > Umm... yeah? So? Lots of us use old VAX's for real work, > everyday. > Real work or hacking? :) Theirs is for supporting other people who have old VAXen. They even still use paper tape! From dlw at neosoft.com Thu Jul 24 14:03:12 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:02 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <199707241804.NAA00639@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 21 Jul 97 at 10:15, Greg Mast wrote: > Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** > Current bid: $7.50 > Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:43:32 PDT > http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=nwr8950 Hey Greg, I noticed the current bid for this was $103.50. I'd love to hear if you actually collect that much for it. I can't believe someone actually wants it THAT bad. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jul 24 09:21:54 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <199707241804.NAA00639@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> References: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <199707241820.OAA29976@mail.cgocable.net> > On 21 Jul 97 at 10:15, Greg Mast wrote: > > Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** > > Current bid: $7.50 > > Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:43:32 PDT > > http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=nwr8950 > > Hey Greg, > > I noticed the current bid for this was $103.50. I'd love to hear if > you actually collect that much for it. I can't believe someone > actually wants it THAT bad. Lure of the apple /// is only reason for that bidding price...yes right! There's apple common drives parts to swap out or fix. Remember apple /// is that least common or not? Jason D. From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Jul 24 13:44:19 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: The Rescuer's Conundrum Message-ID: <199707241844.OAA17430@hiway1.exit109.com> Or otherwise stated: What to do when the cost of reviving a rescued computer is as much as buying one of the same model? To explain, I recently rescued a Mac+ (2.5/40) which was being thrown out by my employer. When I got it, it would give intermittant Sad Mac errors. No problem, I figure I can replace the RAM with some surplus PC SIMMs. This fixes the Sad Macs, but after it heats up it dies with an "Address Error" bomb. Some board switching points to the motherboard (more specifically, the ROMs) as being the fault. Checking around, I see that the most common price for a Mac+ system board is $15 + shipping. As a last check, I call Intragate (intramac@aol.com), who has had good prices in the past, to find out their price. It turns our that they won't even quote me a price for the MB as they can get me an entire Mac+ system for $20. This has really left me in a quandry as to what to do. I really don't want to buy *another* one as I already have a working Mac Plus. Besides, what would I then do with *this one*? I suppose I could keep it for parts, but that seems a bit of a waste too. Any suggestions? Anyone with a spare set of Mac+ ROMs? Thanks in advance... <<>> P.S. Anybody also know of a source for a LaserWriter Plus logic board, too? From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Thu Jul 24 19:59:48 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: The Rescuer's Conundrum Message-ID: <009B7BF4.9A831C91.12@siva.bris.ac.uk> >Or otherwise stated: What to do when the cost of reviving a rescued >computer is as much as buying one of the same model? > >To explain, I recently rescued a Mac+ (2.5/40) which was being thrown >out by my employer. When I got it, it would give intermittant Sad Mac >errors. No problem, I figure I can replace the RAM with some surplus >PC SIMMs. This fixes the Sad Macs, but after it heats up it dies with >an "Address Error" bomb. Some board switching points to the motherboard >(more specifically, the ROMs) as being the fault. Hmmm... My first thought is to fix the old board : Since the ROMs work OK when cold, you should be able to make a good copy of them onto disk. Then blow them into EPROMs, and modify the Mac+ to use said EPROMs (I believe a very small mod is needed, alas, but I don't know that much about the Mac+ hardware). IMHO that's not piracy - it's simply using a backup copy on new media since the original media failed. However, a pair of EPROMs would probably cost about $15, so that's no solution either. In the past I _have_ spent more on repairing/restoring a machine than buying a new one would cost. The reason is simple - I enjoy doing said repairs. A hobby doesn't have to make financial sense. [...] >Thanks in advance... <<>> > >P.S. Anybody also know of a source for a LaserWriter Plus logic board, too? What's wrong with the old one. From the pictures I've seen of said board (Sorry, I don't have one, only a CX-VDO (same engine, but with no logic board) and a Laserwriter 2NT), it looks to be mostly standard components, and should be repairable. -tony From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 24 14:24:26 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: HHCs Message-ID: <199707241524_MC2-1B87-494@compuserve.com> Message text written by Sam: >I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units are liberated, they will be up for grabs.< A suggestion. Why don't you start with the existing list of people who were willing to pay for the units, and allocate one to each. If there aren't enough to go around, then delete names in some random manner. If there are units left over, then take the list of folks who requested more than one and allocate them to those folks in some sort of random manner, and so on. Anybody will take a "freebie", but the folks who committed to make this deal work ought to have the first shot at them. I'm just sorry the deal didn't work out as anticipated. And by the way-- if these aren't new-in-the-box units, I assume they won't be coming with an instruction manual? Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 24 15:50:14 1997 From: B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com (Lane, Bruce A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! Message-ID: Gad, I'm beginning to get a REALLY good idea of what searching for tough-to-find's can be like! Here's the story. I have several MicroVAX II's. I need a way -- ANY way! -- to boot from a CD-ROM on one or all of them. I NEED at least one of the following solutions. 1). (probably a pipe dream) An Andromeda Systems SCDC Q-bus/SCSI host adapter. I don't even care if it doesn't work; I can get it refurbished by the manufacturer. However, $2,500 new is way out of my range. OR (2): ANY QBus-to-SCSI board that can boot from a CD-ROM drive (I have a DEC RRD42). OR (3): A DEC RRD40 CD-ROM drive and controller (the early RRD's used a dedicated controller that, AFAIK, was compatible with any QBUS machine). OR (4): A later model of VAXen (maybe a 3500, 4000, or 5000 series) that is designed to accomodate SCSI from the get-go, and can boot from a CD-ROM. As a last-gasp possibility, I do have a functional TK30 tape drive. Any chance that, if I copy the Ultrix distribution CD to a CompacTape II cartridge, it would be bootable by the MicroVAX? Fellow DEC'ers, I'm getting desperate. Please help me out if you can! I've got at least three systems sitting idle and gathering dust because I can't boot a CD on them at the moment. Thanks in advance. Please reply to my other address: kyrrin@wizards.net ==Bruce Lane http://www.wizards.net/technoid From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 24 17:16:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! In-Reply-To: from "Lane, Bruce A" at Jul 24, 97 01:50:14 pm Message-ID: <9707242116.AA26426@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970724/85e847df/attachment.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 24 16:33:25 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > OR (3): A DEC RRD40 CD-ROM drive and controller (the early RRD's used a > dedicated controller that, AFAIK, was compatible with any QBUS machine). Down a somewhat parallel track... Does anyone have any of the RRD40 loading 'shoes' for this drive? With my weekend run I got one of these drives, and discovered a CD in it. <<>> Had the devil's own time getting it to let go (without doing damage to the drive or CD). Found the reference to the 'shoe' in later searching... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 24 16:42:47 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! Message-ID: <199707242142.AA14567@world.std.com> < Gad, I'm beginning to get a REALLY good idea of what searching for from "PDP11 Hacker ....." at Jul 24, 97 07:59:48 pm Message-ID: <199707242151.RAA15687@hiway1.exit109.com> > >P.S. Anybody also know of a source for a LaserWriter Plus logic board, too? > > What's wrong with the old one. From the pictures I've seen of said board > (Sorry, I don't have one, only a CX-VDO (same engine, but with no logic board) > and a Laserwriter 2NT), it looks to be mostly standard components, and should > be repairable. Well, it appears to be failing its self-test. When you power it on, it never prints a test page and is never seen on a LocalTalk net. So, I hooked up a serial terminal to it and got the following at 1200 baud: *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* [...] I posted to Apple's Tech support site, Usenet, and AOL, but could never get an answer as to what this code means. It's definately the logic board, but I've got no idea where to start looking. (Not to mention that the only socketd chips are the ROMs and a couple of PALs.) <<>> From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 24 18:22:00 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: For those interested in the Commodore VIC-20... For the last two years, I have been working on making a recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM. I started from a scan that I made of a crappy dot-matrix print-out and have a version that compiles with no errors. From this, I developed an assembler variable equates "include" file for all of the VIC-20 RAM and ROM locations. It's a little messy because I preserved the original address and op-code info to match against the assembler listing. So, you have to import it into Excel to strip that info out, save it as text, do some minor double-"double-quote" fixups and re-save it. I have also proven to myself that the compiland is the same as the ROM image by using a simple BASIC program to byte-compare the two files (my ROM image and a ROM image from the Finland Commodore ftp site). There are two versions of the "inc" file. One for recompiling the Kernel and one for ML program writers (to avoid double variable declarations). Right now, I'm working on documenting the code as best as I can. When that's done (I'm up to location $f400), I'll post it and the "inc" files. I would then look for you guys/gals to peer-review it and give me your comments. The finished product can go into our archive. Then, I'll probably work on the BASIC ROM. And so it goes... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 24 20:41:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! Message-ID: <199707250141.AA19311@world.std.com> I got a nice system for free today from a nice old couple who run a thrift shop that they are closing down. Its a Televideo 1603. What's interesting about this system for one thing is that it was made by Televideo, whom I thought only made terminals. It has two 5.25" floppies integrated with a green monochrome monitor on a swivel armature and a detached keyboard. On the back are two DB-25 serial ports, a D-type connector RS-422 port, a telephone jack for a mouse (which I didn't get), and two dipswitch blocks. Inside it has an 8088 and a 6502! I was talking to Doug Coward tonight about it and he suggested that the 6502 was for the terminal operation, and the 8088 was actually the main processor. This makes sense, but I was wondering if anyone knew more about it. When it boots it says on the top line of the screen: TS-1600/1603/1603H POWER ON DIAGNOSTICS Z2.2 then it says below that: RAM TEST IN PROGRESS..... then changes to: FLOPPY DRIVE TEST IN PROGRESS..... at which point it turns on the floppy drive for a few seconds, then goes to: WAITING FOR HARD DISK..... Inside there is a multi-pin connector which I'd assumed was for a hard-drive but there was no cable for it. I didn't write down the number on the WD controller chip. I think perhaps the RS-422 port is where you'd hook the hard drive to. Anyway, after it doesn't find a hard drive, it clears the screen and becomes just a dumb terminal. Doug suggested I try booting an old version of DOS or CP/M+ on it. Any information on this would be appreciated. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:18:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade? Please e-mail me directly if you do. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:15:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: HHCs In-Reply-To: <199707241524_MC2-1B87-494@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by Sam: > >I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units > are liberated, they will be up for grabs.< > > A suggestion. Why don't you start with the existing list of people who > were willing to pay for the units, and allocate one to each. If there > aren't enough to go around, then delete names in some random manner. If > there are units left over, then take the list of folks who requested more > than one and allocate them to those folks in some sort of random manner, > and so on. This is what I planned to do. I have retained the list. There were a total of 53 interested persons, so hopefully there will be enough for everyone. If there are extras then maybe we'll just hold a lottery. > Anybody will take a "freebie", but the folks who committed to make this > deal work ought to have the first shot at them. I'm just sorry the deal > didn't work out as anticipated. And by the way-- if these aren't > new-in-the-box units, I assume they won't be coming with an instruction > manual? A lot of people asked about that. The answer I got was that Mike would try to get at least a couple manuals, as he didn't know how many there were, and the distributors would make photocopies and pass along the cost to the buyer. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:11:35 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Fairchild Building In-Reply-To: <199707242151.RAA15687@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: A bit of history was demolished this week. The Fairchild building on Fairchild Way here in Mountain View has been completely torn down. The building has been empty for a few years at least. Up until a few months ago the Fairchild sign was still outside of the building. I remember that the sign was taken down around the time that National announced that they were going to spin off part of its business and use the Fairchild name. I can't count the number of times I have driven by the sign and thought that I should take a picture of it and the building. I guess that is the way things go around here. "Old" buildings are torn down and replaced with new buildings. Pretty soon there will be no more of the funky 70's stone buildings left. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:11:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: The Rescuer's Conundrum In-Reply-To: <199707241844.OAA17430@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > Or otherwise stated: What to do when the cost of reviving a rescued > computer is as much as buying one of the same model? > > To explain, I recently rescued a Mac+ (2.5/40) which was being thrown > out by my employer. When I got it, it would give intermittant Sad Mac > errors. No problem, I figure I can replace the RAM with some surplus > PC SIMMs. This fixes the Sad Macs, but after it heats up it dies with > an "Address Error" bomb. Some board switching points to the motherboard > (more specifically, the ROMs) as being the fault. > > Checking around, I see that the most common price for a Mac+ system > board is $15 + shipping. As a last check, I call Intragate > (intramac@aol.com), who has had good prices in the past, to find out > their price. It turns our that they won't even quote me a price for > the MB as they can get me an entire Mac+ system for $20. I have 3 of these now. The first one I paid $15 for. The next two I got for free. (BTW, they're available for trade or for sale, not that I expect anyone else to want them either.) > This has really left me in a quandry as to what to do. I really don't > want to buy *another* one as I already have a working Mac Plus. Besides, > what would I then do with *this one*? I suppose I could keep it for > parts, but that seems a bit of a waste too. I suggest either keep it for parts or sell it to someone for parts (perhaps $5). Really though, Mac Plusses are second only to Commodore 64's and TI99/4a's in commonality. I find them everywhere at swap meets. You might want to even just throw it out. Some stuff just doesn't need saving, and the only practical thing to do is get rid of it. Give it away for parts. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Fri Jul 25 02:31:53 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33D85669.2C34@oboe.calpoly.edu> > On 21 Jul 97 at 10:15, Greg Mast wrote: > > Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** > I noticed the current bid for this was $103.50. I'd love to hear if > you actually collect that much for it. I can't believe someone > actually wants it THAT bad. Me too. I figured $20-$30. But who am I to complain? But like they say, talk is cheap. We'll see if they pull through. I had a Radio Shack hard drive that was bid up to $150 a while back. Both high bidders flaked and I relisted it and sold it for $30. Go figure. On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker on it. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jul 25 09:25:47 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <9706258698.AA869848174@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person > interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you > guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of > deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker > on it. I don't see many garage sales around here. Sometimes I get to radio rallies (hamfests, I think is the US term). But there is a car boot sale most Sunday mornings in the summer where I call in on the way home from church. Sometimes there is good stuff; sometimes there is awful stuff; last Sunday I saw (in the way of computers) a late model Commodore 64 (which I already have) without a price tag, and next to it a card advertising a Commodore PET (model unspecified) + disk drive + lots of disks, working but needs new cable (also unspecified) hence "low" price of L30 [delete] [delete] 25. Since I have five PETs already, I didn't bite. But even if it's a fat 40 (which I don't have yet) I'd be reluctant to pay as much as L25 (over $40) even in full working order, and certainly not without the disk drive cable (replacement easily obtainable _only_ on the 8032SK AFAIK). Still, enough moaning. I agree, this sort of sale is always worth a visit - you never know what interesting little goodies you might find there... Philip. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 04:11:51 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Televideo TS1603 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I got a nice system for free today from a nice old couple who run a > thrift shop that they are closing down. It's always nice to get free stuff. :) > Its a Televideo 1603. What's interesting about this system for one thing > is that it was made by Televideo, whom I thought only made terminals. I keep running into TeleVideo terminals these days, but yeah, they did make computers. I myself have a TeleVideo TPC-I, which is their portable CP/M system. VERY nice machine, and well worth the $Can50 I paid for it (especially considering that included transportation from Toronto to Montreal, and a drink with a VERY nice computer geek femme) but I also lack information on my system. (I got three original disks with it, but no documentation, and of course, no mouse.) > It has two 5.25" floppies integrated with a green monochrome monitor on a > swivel armature and a detached keyboard. On the back are two DB-25 serial > ports, a D-type connector RS-422 port, a telephone jack for a mouse (which > I didn't get), and two dipswitch blocks. Inside it has an 8088 and a > 6502! I was talking to Doug Coward tonight about it and he suggested that > the 6502 was for the terminal operation, and the 8088 was actually the > main processor. This makes sense, but I was wondering if anyone knew more > about it. Well, I did record some information about it from a large book I found in my university library. The book is "The Microcomputer Users Handbook 1985" by Longley (possibly et. al., I didn't record the full info on the book, just enough so I could find it again). The information in this book tended to be pretty shoddy, but ANY information is better than total vacuum. Other than the information you have listed here, all I can add is that the book says it ran at 5MHz (using the 8088), maximum RAM was 256K, and it had 32K of display memory (as does my TPC-I). Graphics of 640 x 240 pixels were listed as optional, so the 32K of display memory would probably only be there if the graphics option is in the machine. (Resolution specs are also the same as my TPC-I, what a coincidence! ;) ) The machine was supposed to have two 1.46MB 5-1/4" floppy drives (would that be quad density?), and supposedly ran CP/M and MS-DOS, though I'd guess it'd really be CP/M-86 if there's no Z80/8080 in there. It was packaged with a printer, and is listed in the book at 2395UKP. I know that's a lot of words for very little help, I guess I'm just in the typing mood tonight. :) (Thanks for the work on the HHC deal even though it didn't work out, BTW) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 05:17:14 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: HHCs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > One final word on the Panasonic hand-helds... > > I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units > are liberated, they will be up for grabs. I don't want to get anyone's > hopes up, but Mike mentioned that he would see if we could just get them > for free if we pick up the shipping from Canada, since the company didn't > seem interested in making a buck on them anyway. When the time arrives > I'll bring it up. Well, that's cool. But about the 'shipping from Canada'... it doesn't make too much sense for those of us in Canada to have our machines go through customs two times. Where in Canada is the company located? And is there someone in the vicinity that can pick the machines up? Yes I realize this should have been mentioned for the original deal, but I've been too busy to really keep up the last little while. :/ Thanks again. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 05:34:08 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Laser 3000 Message-ID: Just on the off chance that there's a different mix of people here now than when I first enquired some months ago... Does anyone here have disk drives, CP/M module, or documentation (especially the tech manual) for the Laser 3000 computer from Video Technology? How about the RS232 adapter, or the RGB cable? Computer Direct also sold these as the "Aplus 3000" (they used a marker to cover over the "Laser 3000" nameplate for the picture in the ad). Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 05:46:47 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Commodore history Message-ID: Does anyone know where Commodore was actually started? I've seen the Bronx and Toronto given as the site of the first Commodore shop, but the Bronx references have been made more recently. Apparently the official Commodore history at the World of Commodore show in Toronto (forget which year - 10th anniversary of the show I think, so 1993?) had a picture of the first little Commodore shop... in Toronto. Also, does anyone know where Commodore had production facilities in Canada? I have a VIC-20 with "Made in Canada" stamped on it, and I didn't realize that Commodore actually _made_ computers here. As another note of interest, both of my "Made in U.S.A." VIC-20s have serial numbers starting with "P". The "Made in Canada" VIC has "CC" instead. Did the letters record what plant the machine was manufactured or assembled in? CC = Canadian plant, P = Philadelphia or something? Heck, while I'm at it, does anyone know the exact date (or even the exact year) that Commodore purchased MOS Technology? I figured it would've been 1976, but I've seen documents referenced as from "Commodore/MOS Technology, Norristown, PA, 1975". Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jul 25 11:12:45 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Is there a DECsystem-ten emulator for free/shareware? Message-ID: I heard there's 3 DEC-10 emulators, but all are commercial products (And therefore pretty expensive!). Are there any freeware or shareware ones? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 25 11:22:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 124 Message-ID: <199707251622.AA20564@world.std.com> Bruse Lane queried: Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. And, a 5-pin cable made for the 64 (the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of those if you have one sitting around. Finally, if you want to hack one together, I can provide the pinout. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 25 14:51:33 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D12@compuserve.com> Message text written by "Richard A. Cini, Jr." > For the last two years, I have been working on making a recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM.< OK, I'm not afraid to ask the amateur question: Why? I'd love to see someone with good programming skills write some sophisticated software for the VIC-20, likely requiring at least a 16K expander or something. If your project will help lead to that, I'm all for it. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 25 14:51:30 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Some Great Deals Message-ID: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D0E@compuserve.com> Message text written by Greg Mast >On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker on it.< Heck, if you're dumping stuff at garage sale prices, post the list here first! Probably nothing rare or particularly interesting, but you never know what somebody might be looking for. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jul 25 16:24:11 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: HHCs Message-ID: <01BC9917.EE1B5F00@ppp-151-164-39-11.rcsntx.swbell.net> I must've fell off the list last week when the Internet went haywire and I've just resubscribed. From the tone of this message it would seem that the HHC deal fell thru. Would someone mind bringing me up to date? Thanks, Bob ---------- From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] Sent: Thursday, July 24, 1997 6:15 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: re: HHCs On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by Sam: > >I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units > are liberated, they will be up for grabs.< > > A suggestion. Why don't you start with the existing list of people who > were willing to pay for the units, and allocate one to each. If there > aren't enough to go around, then delete names in some random manner. If > there are units left over, then take the list of folks who requested more > than one and allocate them to those folks in some sort of random manner, > and so on. This is what I planned to do. I have retained the list. There were a total of 53 interested persons, so hopefully there will be enough for everyone. If there are extras then maybe we'll just hold a lottery. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970725/b82852e2/attachment.bin From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 18:20:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D0B@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< > > The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for > the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. And, a 5-pin cable made for the 64 I always used the RCA composite jack for connecting to a TV on my C64, so I don't have the 8-pin video cable. > (the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I > think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with > the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of > those if you have one sitting around. Finally, if you want to hack one > together, I can provide the pinout. I have a TI/994a converter box...will this work? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Fri Jul 25 20:03:49 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D0B@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> At 15:51 25/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< > >The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for >the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. And, a 5-pin cable made for the 64 >(the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I >think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with >the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of >those if you have one sitting around. Finally, if you want to hack one >together, I can provide the pinout. > >Gil Parrish >107765.1161@compuserve.com > > Id like the Pinout!! Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From dynasoar at mindspring.com Fri Jul 25 22:46:29 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable References: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <33D97315.70A0@mindspring.com> steve wrote: > > At 15:51 25/07/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >>Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< There are complete instructions for construction Commodore video cables of both kind at: http://www.student.informatik.th-darmstadt.de/~mjk/nepa/tuning/video_cable.html Hope this helps. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sat Jul 26 10:39:58 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: (fwd) Model 4 video problems Message-ID: <33dd1a10.1231835@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Can any expert out there help me with this? Thanks! In comp.sys.tandy, bluesky6@ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) wrote: %I just got a Model 4. When I turn it on, the disk drive will spin but %there's no video. % %When the video brightness is increased, I can see a large rectangular %green area where the video would be. % %Instead of video characters, there are lots of zigzag lines across the %screen, with more on the top of the screen than towards the bottom. %The entire screen is stable and does not flicker or move around. % %It has been a good number of years since I last played with this kind %of video (built a 6502/6845 terminal in the mid 80s) so I can't %remember what problem would cause this type of symptoms. % %When I remove the video connector (after opening up the machine), the %screen loses the vertical hold. I guess that would mean that the %vertical sync and circuitry is working. % %Could the problem be due to the monitor circuitry or a problem with %the Horizontal Sync generation? % %Would appreciate all/any pointers. % %Ben % From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sat Jul 26 11:42:22 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... Message-ID: <01ILOTSKRW6AA4UKIM@cc.usu.edu> > 1st: (the biggie) VAXStation 3520. 'Cube' configuration, apparently 4 > processors Four processors would make it a 3540... > , 64meg of ram, a TK70 and controller, one board that appears to > be the interface between the processor bus and the three Q-bus slots in > the chassis, How much stuff is on the QBus adapter board? There were two versions: FTAM supports only the TK70 controller (is you TK70 attached to QBus or to SCSI?) and FQAM supports any random QBus module. FTAM is a simple module containing only a few chips; FBIC (interface to the backplane) and CQBIC (CVAX -> QBus adapter) being the only really big ones. I believe there was also a clock generator chip, but not much else. FQAM is chuck full o' goodness. It his a prom-based microcode machine to run the module and lots and lots of PALs. > and a board on the processor bus marked "I/O Module" with two > 50 pin headers on it. The connector which goes out the side of the backplane is SCSI. Although DEC used the DSSI chip on this module, they only supported SCSI; the DSSI chip is capable of doing both. The connector which comes out the front of the backplane goes to a distribution panel which provides: - Four serial ports (console/printer, modem, mouse, keyboard) - Ethernet (AUI and BNC) - Diagnostic code display (one 7-segment LED) Unfortunately, I don't know the pinout of the cable; I don't have a printset for the 3520. > There also appears to be a space for what looks like it would have been a > three board video sub-system (which has been removed). Three boards is correct. For extra fun, it has its own embedded MicroVAX II... > Aside from the basic power/control cabling, and the cable to the TK-70, > there are no other cables in the unit at present. (and no place to plug in > a terminal!) The terminal plugs into the distribution panel which plugs into the I/O module. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sat Jul 26 11:43:52 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... Message-ID: <01ILOUA48ABSA4UKIM@cc.usu.edu> >> 2nd: a number of DECStation 2100 and 3100 series units. (along with >> various peripherals and expantion boxes. >> >> What are they, and what do they run? (and docs?) > > I have one, it runs VMS 5.3 (VAXServer 3100) Sorry; it it runs VMS it's a VAXstation, not a DECstation. The DECstations are built on MIPS processors. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jul 26 12:58:20 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Some Great Deals Message-ID: <33DA3ABC.33F7@oboe.calpoly.edu> > >On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person = > >interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you = > >guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of = > >deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker = > >on it.< > > Heck, if you're dumping stuff at garage sale prices, post the list here > first! Probably nothing rare or particularly interesting, but you never > know what somebody might be looking for. > > Gil Parrish > 107765.1161@compuserve.com = I do post lists of the stuff I'm selling on Auctionweb. Some of that stuff does go really cheap but not all. I do plan to post a big list of the stuff I was selling at the garage sale and the prices should be very reasonable (cheap). You are right in that the G sale stuff isn't rare. I had 3 Apple II+, an Apple IIc, C-64, Piles of C-64 power supplies and cables, joysticks, Atari 2600 consoles and games. Only thing is that they need to be shipped which can be more than the price sometimes. I did manage to give away 4 dead C-64s and a 1541 to a guy who works on them. Give me a month or so. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jul 26 14:31:18 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Garage Sales (Re: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb) In-Reply-To: <33D85669.2C34@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: >On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person >interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you >guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of >deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker >on it. I'm curious, does anyone really have any luck with garage sales. I've been hitting them the past couple weeks, to see what I could come up with. Today I hit over a dozen, what did I find, a Tandy 1000, and a TeleVideo console. The console would have been OK, but I didn't want to pay what they wanted since I don't have a use for it. As for the Tandy, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a PC clone, which I don't collect. Basically the only place I seem to have any luck is at Goodwill, or a swap meet. Although I did find a guy at the local Flea Market that had the TI/99-4A cartridge I wanted. Problem is, he doesn't deal in computers only console systems and cartridges. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 26 17:18:05 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> from "steve" at Jul 26, 97 02:03:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970726/a4a76ada/attachment.ksh From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jul 26 17:16:54 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726231654.0069e034@post.keme.co.uk> At 23:18 26/07/97 +0100, you wrote: >> Id like the Pinout!! > >According to my service manual, the pinout of the 8-pin video socket is : > >1 - Luminance >2 - Ground >3 - Sound >4 - Composite video >5 - Audio Input >6 - Chrominance >7 - N/C >8 - N/C (+5V on some machines, like the C16?) > >Note that the pins are numbered clockwise from the 'gap' in the following >order : 6 1 4 2 5 3 7 with 8 being the central pin. > >-tony > > Thanx Tony. Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jul 26 17:18:36 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Sound Expander Disk Image In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726231836.0069d574@post.keme.co.uk> Anyone out there got a Disk Image of the CBM Sound Expander Software. I have the hardware but need to locate the disk, If i have a .D64 i can put it vack to a real 1541 disk, and hopefully have fun. Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Jul 26 18:20:13 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: bundling mail Message-ID: <199707270253.WAA27658@smtp.interlog.com> I recall seeing an option to bundle msgs in this list. How do I get this? Please bundle ? From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jul 26 22:06:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Marvin: I was wondering if any of your recent Atari acquisitions are for sale. I am especially interested on a good deal on a drive and some software... PLEASE let me know.. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > I went to the TRW Swap Meet today down in Los Angeles and managed to get > a few things. A guy was selling a fairly complete Aquarius that > included the cassette recorder, printer/plotter, expansion chassis, a > 32K expansion unit, some games, and documentation. He was asking $25 > but took $20 for the lot. Also picked up an Epson PX-8 portable and an > NEC 8201 portable (sure hope those numbers are correct as I am going > from memory) for $25 lot. The "best" deal was a guy walking around with > a sign that said "Free Atari". Of course, that got my attention and I > picked the 5 boxes of stuff up. Haven't checked it all out yet, but > there were supposed to be three Atari 400 computers, Three disk drive > units, an 850 interface, a modem, docs, and some other stuff. Saw a guy > offering S-100 cards (mostly memory and HD cards) at $5 each. When I > asked why he was asking so much, he replied they weren't for sale. I > hadn't heard of the manufacturer of those particular cards, and figured > if schematics were available, they might be worth what he was asking. > > I met a friend of mine whom I hadn't seen for about a year. Turns out > he built one of the Altair computers I have and was one of the first > factory reps for Vector Graphic. Apparently among the many people he > called on was a place up around Berkeley with a name like Kentucky Fried > Computers (or something similar) and that was where Northstar Computers > got started. Apparently, he has some of the early SCCS stuff along with > most of the Vector Graphic docs, etc. so with any luck, I'll end up with > that stuff too. > > From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 26 22:08:33 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Fairchild Building References: Message-ID: <199707270308.UAA16014@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Paul E Coad writes: > A bit of history was demolished this week. The Fairchild building > on Fairchild Way here in Mountain View has been completely torn down. OK, a little bit more of that intro I keep putting off, as lead-in to another story. I am what I guess is considered a staff member of the Computer History Association of California, with the title "Assistant Tactical Director." What this means is that I help CHAC with, well, moving stuff. There's a long story about how that came to pass which maybe I will tell some other time, but to steal a note from Uncle Roger it's cheaper than joining the Y/club/whatever. And CHAC has a computer collection and you all know what that means, right? I get to see and touch some moderately k00l iron from time to time. Anyway, CHAC keeps this stuff in storage containers that recently moved from one place to another, and there is some cooperation with another organization, the Perham Foundation, which used to operate a museum of electronics up on the Foothill College campus, because Perham provides the storage containers to CHAC. Perham also has a collection (including computers and some other nifty stuff), and if CHAC's Tactical Director who is also Keeper of the Keys or something for Perham says "Hey Frank, could you give me a hand over here?" I generally don't ask whether "here" is CHAC or Perham territory before answering. OK, that's the end of the intro and lead-in, now on with the show. A couple of months ago those of us on the CHAC staff list got an e-mail from said Tactical Director. Remember Ampex up in Redwood City, CA? They're still there, only not as big, and now they are sandwiched between @Home and Excite or some other hot Internet web-crazed pre-IPO startup that I should probably pretend to be more excited about. Up 'til a couple of years ago Ampex had a museum on-site, celebrating the history of magnetic recording. It's not there anymore. I gather most of the artifacts were packed up and are in storage with no plans to display them. But the building housing the museum was scheduled to be torn down and the museum furnishings were still there. Basically, this meant the cabinets and interior walls -- the museum was built in what used to be Ampex's telephone switch room (you know, telephone switches are a lot smaller now that they aren't crossbar) and they had spent a fair bit of money and effort on hiding that with nice wood-frame walls covered in Fiberglas sound-absorptive material, that not only kept the whole place nice and quiet but formed lots of little nooks and crannies to isolate exhibits from each other and keep perusers in one place from disturbing those in others. Also they had put up a fairly nice ceiling lighting system. Perham got that stuff, but they had to dismantle it before the wrecking-ball showed up. The Tactical Director thought some CHAC folks should get a look so they could understand what was possible in the way of using space. So I went that next weekend and helped pull the walls down for transport. > I can't count the number of times I have driven by the sign and thought > that I should take a picture of it and the building. Well, here is where I get to twist some of y'all's guts a little. Any of you Bay Area folks ever go to the hamfest that used to be held at the Ampex cafeteria every October? The museum was about 30 feet away from there. I missed a great chance (actually a couple of great chances) to see something really wonderful. And now it's Too Late. And those of you wondering what happened to the Ampex 'fest now have some idea. > I guess that is the way things go around here. "Old" buildings are > torn down and replaced with new buildings. Pretty soon there will > be no more of the funky 70's stone buildings left. I think this building was built in the 1950s. It had a lot of that transparent glass and white metal feel to it, at least the cafeteria area did but then that was an area for *people*. The switch room, well, as far as I can tell crossbar switches have no appreciation for any architecture but their own. ... I started writing this the other morning, but put it off because I had to go to work. Never got back to it. Today I ran into Paul and a couple of y'all (You Know Who You Are) at the Computer Recycling Center Saturday sale. When you see some folks stuffing a car with that classiccmp sort of gear you should walk up and say "I bet y'all are on the classiccmp list" and see if you get to put faces with your e-correspondents. -Frank McConnell From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jul 26 22:23:36 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Free Computer Books & Stuff! Message-ID: <33DABF38.2775@oboe.calpoly.edu> Still cleaning the closets. I'll be posting more stuff like this off and on for a while as I sort. All this stuff is free of charge! Of course you pay postage to where you live unless you want to drive to central California. TRS-80 Model 100 Manuals: These are photocopies of the originals but are bound together like real manuals. Service Manual, Owner's Manual and 2 little Quick Reference manuals. Shipping is $2.25 book rate. Apple Lot: Critic's Guide to Software for Apple and Compatible Computers Apple II Super Serial Card Manual Apple II 80-Column Text Card Manual Extended 80-Column Text Card Supplement Apple II The DOS Manual Applesoft II Basic Programming Reference Manual Shipping is $4.25 book rate Commodore Geos Lot: Looks like a set of GEOS 2.0 and 1.2 Manuals for 1.2 and 2.0 Deskpak Plus (six applications for GEOS) Deskpak Manual 25 Blank 5-1/4 disks Shipping is $2.75 book rate From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 26 22:20:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Can someone decipher this panic? Message-ID: <199707270320.AA28109@world.std.com> A-B C-D < ---+----------+---------+ < 1 | M7606 =============| < 2 | M7608 =============| < 3 | M3106 === | < 4 | M7516YM== | < ---+----------+---------+ < 5 | M7546====|M7555====| < 6 | < 7 | < 8 | < 9 | < 10 | < 11 | < 12 | < ---+----------+---------+ < 13 | | HDCNCTRS < Slot 13 bottom is not the HD controller, it's the distribution card. There should be a 50pin cable bettween the m9058 and the m7555(rqdx3) card. Pull the m3106 and bump the rest up one with the last one being the m7555. It shouldn't make a difference but at this point you don't need it to boot. This will give you a minimal config for the bus. Also make sure the overt the top cable for the memory is good! A-B C-D ---+----------+---------+ 1 | M7606 =============| 2 | M7608 =============| 3 | M7546 === | 4 | M7555 === | ---+----------+---------+ 5 |===Q->====|==Q->====| 6 |====<-Q===|===<-Q===| 7 |===Q->====|===Q->===| The arrows are added to indicate the qbus grant flow for the bus starting at row 5. Allison From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jul 26 22:37:42 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Commodore Liquidation! Message-ID: <33DAC286.64DD@oboe.calpoly.edu> I have the following Commodore stuff for sale. Discount for more than one item (you save on shipping too) VIC-1541 Drive (2 ea) $5 ea 1541 Drive (2 ea) $5 ea C-64 in orig box w/ps(1 ea) $5 Commodore joysticks (1 pr) $5 Untested C-64 Power Supplies (6 ea) $3 ea Remember to add shipping to what its worth to you. Use the UPS site: UPS Rate Calculator to figure shipping. And be sure to add $1 because those quotes are commercial pick-up rates. Drives and C-64s are about 11 lbs ea. My ZIP is 93405. I also have a pile of cables and stuff that I haven't look through yet. Will throw in whatever cables and manuals I can find that go with each item, no guarantees though. Also, Im pretty sure I ran all these but not positive. I don't have time to test all this stuff. Sold AS-IS. Make me an offer on all or some of it! It's going to go one way or another so if it doesn't sell, I'll give it away for shipping cost. If that doesn't work it shall return to the thrift store from whence it came! From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 26 22:18:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: (fwd) Apple /// FS (fwd) Message-ID: Here's an Apple /// for sale. I've seen them go for much cheaper. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: sundeck@ix.netcom.com(N.J.C.) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: Apple /// FS Date: 24 Jul 1997 12:31:32 GMT one Apple /// with Apple /// monitor and 2 nd drive , some software $150 plus shipping sundeck@ix.netcom.com or eflea@atlantic.net -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 26 22:34:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Power Supplies Message-ID: A while ago I promised two people that I would fetch them some IBM PCjr power supplies if I ever found them. Well, I found some today. I've got two up for grabs. Please e-mail me if you were one of the two people who inquired about one. If you weren't, e-mail me anyway and I will send them to you if the other two guys don't respond. To the two guys whose names I forgot: sorry for forgetting your names! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Sun Jul 27 08:14:55 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:51:33 -0400, Gil Parrish wrote: > For the last two years, I have been working on making a recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM.< >>OK, I'm not afraid to ask the amateur question: Why? >>I'd love to see someone with good programming skills write some >>sophisticated software for the VIC-20, likely requiring at least a 16K >>expander or something. If your project will help lead to that, I'm all >>for it. Well, Gil, I used it as a learning project. When I first got my VIC-20 in 1981/2, I was in junior high school. I programmed mostly in BASIC, and did a little ML. After I graduated, I got involved in too many other things: my fraternity, my wife, a job, the Mac, and then Windows hacking. When I bought my house two years ago, I moved all of my old machines and started playing with them again. So...I wanted to re-learn 6502 ML and the VIC/CBM architecture. I thought that documenting the VIC Kernel (some thing that I had never seen in print) would be a nice project. Also, I thought that it sould be good to have recompilable Kernel code, if I ever needed to recompile it. Documenting the Kernel enables the programmer to understand what's in the "black box." This is why AndrewShulman and Matt Pietrek have made a fortune in books detailing the internals of Windows. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Sun Jul 27 16:08:15 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Power Supplies Message-ID: <009B7E2F.C0AA5E1A.23@siva.bris.ac.uk> >A while ago I promised two people that I would fetch them some IBM PCjr >power supplies if I ever found them. Well, I found some today. I've got Incidentally, I built a PSU for my PC-jr last week. I used a simple 15V AC transformer, no centre tap or anything like that. The only one I could find was 50VA, which is marginal, but not too bad. The ends of the secondary go to the outside 2 pins of the PC-jr power connector. The central pin goes to mains earth and to nothing on the secondary side at all. Oh, I put a 3.15A fuse in series with the secondary to protect the transformer. It works fine. My PC-jr boots, and all PSU outputs (including the -ve one) are present and correct. > >Sam -tony From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 27 12:23:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Hayes MicroModem II Micro-coupler Message-ID: Was there some bloke on this discussion who was asking for the Hayes micro-coupler the other day? I have an extra one if you still need it. E-mail me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 27 12:41:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:03 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems > keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a regular > keyboard but the back has an RCA jack labeled "Video Output", a 40 pin > header labeled "Printer", a pushbutton labeled "Save", a db9 male > connector labeled "Power", two phone jacks labeled "Phone Connect" and > "Wall Connect", and a switch near the phone jacks labeled > "Multiline/Single Line". Anyone have any idea what this thing is? Find the power supply for it, hook it to a TV and boot it up. Sounds like a whole computer! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 27 12:40:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Epson PX-8, no power up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > I just plugged in the Epson PX-8 and the only thing that happens is the > LCD screen turns on, but nothing else. I plugged in a power supply to > charge the battery (and then checked the battery voltage) so that is not > the problem. I also pressed both the outside reset switch with no > response, and then pressed the "master" reset switch in the compartment > on the bottom of the machine, again with no response. When the bottom > was opened, there was space for two ROMs; the center one was empty and > the one to the side had an Epson ROM of some sort installed. There was Marvin, the socket labelled ROM1 should have an Epson ROM in it, and as far as I know it is the O/S ROM. ROM2 socket on mine has Portable WordStar and is not necessary to run the system as far as I know. In fact, I just pulled the ROM on mine and the system still came up (BTW, those ROMs are neat...they have a little plastic bucket that the ROM sits in that makes it easy to pull them out and re-insert them). My battery is worn and does not hold a charge anymore, but it will recharge and operate for a little while (how long I don't know since I never have it on for more than a few minutes) but as soon as I plug in the power supply it works fine. Inside the ROM compartment you will notice an "Initial Reset" button. Have you tried pressing that? There is also a dip switch inside (SW4)...my settings are as follows: 1:ON 2:ON 3:ON 4:ON 5:OFF 6:ON 7:OFF 8:OFF There is a smaller compartment on the bottom near that back of the unit...did you make sure there is a ROM in there? Is it seated correctly? Hope this helps in some small way. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 13:41:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Epson PX-8, no power up References: Message-ID: <33DB9664.7DF771DF@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > > > I just plugged in the Epson PX-8 and the only thing that happens is > the > > LCD screen turns on, but nothing else. I plugged in a power supply > to > Marvin, the socket labelled ROM1 should have an Epson ROM in it, and > as > far as I know it is the O/S ROM. ROM2 socket on mine has Portable > WordStar and is not necessary to run the system as far as I know. In > fact, I just pulled the ROM on mine and the system still came up (BTW, > > those ROMs are neat...they have a little plastic bucket that the ROM > sits Thanks for that additional info! ROM1 has the Epson Portable Wordstar ROM installed (after I took a closer look) and that back compartment does have a ROM installed. The switch settings were the same as yours and yes, I did try pushing that "Initial Reset" switch in the front compartment. Now that I know the front ROMs can be pulled and the system will still run, I'll try that and see what happens. Thanks for the info! From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jul 27 14:13:00 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:51:33 -0400, Gil Parrish wrote: > > For the last two years, I have been working on making a > > recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM.< > > >> OK, I'm not afraid to ask the amateur question: Why? > >> I'd love to see someone with good programming skills write some > >> sophisticated software for the VIC-20, likely requiring at least a > >> 16K expander or something. If your project will help lead to that, > >> I'm all for it. [snip] > So...I wanted to re-learn 6502 ML and the VIC/CBM architecture. I thought > that documenting the VIC Kernel (some thing that I had never seen in print) > would be a nice project. Also, I thought that it sould be good to have > recompilable Kernel code, if I ever needed to recompile it. Documenting the > Kernel enables the programmer to understand what's in the "black box." > This is why Andrew Shulman and Matt Pietrek have made a fortune in books > detailing the internals of Windows. You are right Richard. It is one thing to read the code and another to modify it. I started on the KIM-1 board (even tho the ROMs are fully documented in the manuals - only to find - they didn't quite match up (it was a change to the good tho 8-) Then I did the same with my VIM-1 board and as it also contains the BASIC ROM - I did it to that one too 8-) Actually, I wrote a 6502 2-pass assembler with Macro extenstions just to play around with it 8-) And as soon as my AIM-65 comes in from that guy I can't mention who sold them all - lock stock and barrel to some one else - and is an Engineer - therefore closer to God that the rest of us. Of course this "pure speculation" and is simply "a lie" and I regret that I have to "insinuate" this statement. The 6502 assembler is written in Perl - and about as fast as a sloth - it still works well and outputs Intel HEX code and my own. I am working on having it also output Motorola 'S' records but haven't done much with it lately. To really S T R E T C H myself, I also wrote a 6502 hardware emulator in Perl that uses Sockets to act like parts of the hardware. This all runs fine under Linux so I have found out the hardware emulator is a little harder to work that I thought. If anybody wants to look at it or get a copy - I could put it up on the FTP site. You will have to get your own copies of the ROMs tho. Unless someone can verify the legal status of the copyrights on the ROMs. I am a little busy setting up Rescue trips to dig much further into THAT moras of mumbo-jumbo. BC From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jul 27 17:53:13 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Altos III terminal References: Message-ID: <33DBD159.269C@unix.aardvarkol.com> I just picked up an Altos III terminal, with the hopes of eventually using it as CON on my SWTP. The only problem is that I got only the terminal itself, with no keyboard. It only cost me $1, so that doesn't bother me at all. Anyone have an extra Altos keyboard around that would work with this? It seems to power up fine, and according to the status in the upper right corner, is coming up at 9600 bps. Is there an internal ROM setup with this, as I can't find any dip switches on it at all? Also, is this a proprietary terminal, or a fairly standard ASCII terminal? Thanks! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sun Jul 27 10:54:22 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Altos III terminal In-Reply-To: <33DBD159.269C@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <199707271953.PAA20147@mail.cgocable.net> Jeff, Look for a way to get it into setup mode, usually much like vt100 clone types does... :) Otherwise the dreaded dipswitches! Should have a key and a control key to get you in somewhere on the keyboard. Jason D. > I just picked up an Altos III terminal, with the hopes of eventually > using it as CON on my SWTP. The only problem is that I got only the > terminal itself, with no keyboard. It only cost me $1, so that doesn't > bother me at all. Anyone have an extra Altos keyboard around that would > work with this? It seems to power up fine, and according to the status > in the upper right corner, is coming up at 9600 bps. Is there an > internal ROM setup with this, as I can't find any dip switches on it at > all? Also, is this a proprietary terminal, or a fairly standard ASCII > terminal? Thanks! > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 15:11:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? References: Message-ID: <33DBAB87.C4EF873B@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > > > Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems > > keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a > regular > > Find the power supply for it, hook it to a TV and boot it up. Sounds > like a whole computer! Yes, it looks like one to me also, but it uses a power supply I haven't seen before. I'm hoping someone here has run into one before and can identify it. I can always take it apart and figure out the power connections, but it is so much easier and takes a lot less time to find someone who can identify the unit! From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Jul 27 15:53:50 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Freebie Okidata Okimate 10 Printer Message-ID: <33DBB55E.2C9C@oboe.calpoly.edu> You pay UPS for 7 lbs from 93405. Printer only, no interface cable. Was used with C-64. Untested but looks good. Check the UPS Rate Calculator to figure shipping. And be sure to add about $1 because those quotes are commercial pick-up rates. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 21:57:10 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Aquarius Stuff References: <33DB94CC.AC19B2FC@rain.org> Message-ID: <33DC0A86.8BBA702D@rain.org> I found I sent this email to Sam instead of mailing to the listserver so I am just reposting in case anyone is interested. > Now you did it, I had to go back and look at all the stuff again, darn > > :). Everything below has the Aquarius name and logo on it. The > 4-color > printer turned out to be Radofin Electronics. This is actually what > came in the lot: Prices are from the Crimac, Inc. Aquarius Order form > > before the discount. The only date is on the order form and states > that > 10% can be deducted if mailed by January 31, 1985. The prices are > from > that flyer as obtained from a copy of the original order. The next > flyer from Crimac showed a price increase of about 20%. Pricing is > qualified when the model number on the box did not match the order. > > Mattel Electronics Aquarius > Ser # RH0115319 > Model # 5931 > Missing original box and packaging, but has docs > No Price listed > > Mattel Electronics Data Recorder Ser # RH000151 > Added label - Mattel Electronics, Mfg by Radofin > Model # 4394 > Price - $31.95 for Model # 4394R > > Mattel Electronics Mini Expander Ser # RH0109348 > Model # 4063 > Price - $43.95 for Model # 4063R > > Radofin Electronics 4-Color Printer Ser # RH0500203 > No indication of mfg on printer, only Radofin on box > Missing printer cable > Model # 4615R > Price - $109.00 > > Mattel Electronics Space Speller Cartridge > Only Mattel label on box is "(c) Mattel Electronics, Inc. 1983" > Model # GMN0014 > Price - $19.95 for Model 4682R > > Mattel Electonics FileForm Cartridge > Model # 4177 > Price - $29.95 for Model 4177R > > Radofin Electronics 32K Memory Module > Model # 4217R > Price - $74.95 From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 22:04:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Stuff for Sale References: Message-ID: <33DC0C4E.89BC260@rain.org> Just in case anyone here has missed it, boxes of stuff for sale are being posted in comp.os.cpm. The person who published the Z-Letter is apparently divesting himself of a LOT of stuff and anyone looking for manuals, magazines, machines, etc. would be well advised to take a look!!! He is located up in Oregon and has indicated he is going to dumpster the stuff if it is not sold one month after it was first advertised. He also has a web page where he is advertising the stuff, but I don't have the URL handy. I think he posts it though in each of his postings. From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 28 09:16:27 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: <199707281016_MC2-1BBB-1092@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. << >> Finally, if you want to hack one together, I can provide the pinout.<< >I'd like the Pinout!!< First, the Commodore 8-pin DIN connector is the unusual one; the "Hershman" or something. This means that pins 7 and 8 are not in the same positions as on the common 8-pin DIN connector. (Look at the port to confirm pin placement; I'm not sure the chart below is correct.) One easy solution here is to cut pins 7 and 8 off a common 8-pin connector; they aren't needed for anything. Or as explained below, you can use a common 5-pin DIN connector; but, if you're hooking to a separated color composite monitor, your picture won't be QUITE as sharp. Looking at the port on the back of the computer, OR at the BACK of the DIN plug (the side you'll attach the wires to), the pinout is: 8 7 3 6 1 5 4 2 Connections are: 1 Luminance 2 GRND 3 Audio 4 Color Composite 5 Audio In (not used) 6 Chroma 7 NC 8 NC Hook up pin 3 for audio in all cases. As to video, if you're using a separated color composite monitor, do separate RCA plugs for 1 and 6. If you're using a color composite monitor with the single input, use 4. If you have monochrome, use 1. If you want to use a 5-pin DIN connector with a separated color composite monitor, do separate RCA plugs for pins 1 and 4. From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 28 09:16:23 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: <199707281016_MC2-1BBB-1090@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> >Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?<<< >> (the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of<< >I have a TI/994a converter box...will this work?< The TI 99/4a doesn't have an internal RF modulator; that's what the box does. So even on a TI, you only need the box (and can only use the box) if you're hooking to a TV. The Plus/4 has an internal RF modulator, so if you want to hook to a TV all you need is an RCA-RCA cable and an ordinary game/TV switch. I *assumed* (and we all know what happens when we "ass u me") that when you said "video cable", you meant a monitor cable. As I said, it's the same as the C64 and some other computers use, so it shouldn't be all that rare. I'm sure anybody could sell you one (including me) for $5 and postage. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From rcini at msn.com Mon Jul 28 08:42:44 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:13:00 -0500 (CDT), Brett wrote: >>Unless someone can verify the legal status of the copyrights on the ROMs. >>I am a little busy setting up Rescue trips to dig much further into THAT >>moras of mumbo-jumbo. I got my copies of the ROM images off of ftp.funet.fi. It seems that this Finland ftp site has boat loads of Commodore software, including the ROM images to be used for emulators (I used mine for the PC-VIC emulator and as a known-good ROM image to compare my Kernel assemblies with). If my wife really understood what I was doing with the VIC Kernel project, she'd probably say "Why??" too. But, it's really more of saying to myself that I reverse-engineered object-code into a recompilable file and that I learned something than anything else. Since I can't yet really own the source code, I made my own . ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET e-mail: rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 28 09:37:28 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Broken PDP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is interesting. The PDP has been sitting under my bed for awhile, not doing anything. My parents were beginning to catch onto the fact that it doesn't run, and if they figure this out they will likely make me pitch it. So, I got my 486 "Terminal"[1] going and fired up E11. I got the PDP-11 instruction set from the PDP-11 FAQ ("What is the PDP-11 Instruction Set?") and poked 4 bytes at location 1000. The code was the following: 1000 RESET 1002 MOV PC,R1 1004 INC R0 1006 JMP (R1) so it would loop forever, incrementing R0 each time. Just a counter. This ran under E11, but not under the real PDP. Is it broken? It just doesn't run. At all. The code stays in memory, I can see it there after a few attempts, so it's not stomping on core. But R0 never gets incremented. R1 gets set, but never R0. Does it have a special use? This is my first-ever shot at assembler on ANY machine. So I am probably making an obvious mistake. --------------------------- [1] I was told a story in which an MIT hacker broke his leg, and had to stay in the hospital. His friends decided to bring him a terminal and a modem, so he could hack while in bed. The guard at the door stopped them, saying "What's that?" to which the hackers replied "A computer terminal." The guard digs through the list of stuff patients are allowed to have, and sure enough terminals are not on the list. Rules are rules! The hackers leave. They return about 20 minutes later, with the equipment. The guard says "I said you couldn't take that up!" They say "It's not the same thing. This is a TV Typewriter! See, you type, and it shows up on the TV!" The guard checks his list again. TV is on the list, and so is Typewriter. "Okay, take it in!" From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 28 10:06:38 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was talking to one of my friends about old computers, and he asked me what the best thing about a PDP was. I told him, the front-panel lights. And being able to program the machine from the switches. He then suggested that I build a front panel for a PC. Hmm... It's a bad joke, but then again, I do have a PC-XT motherboard to waste... It would be interesting... Is it possible? It would score high on the nerdity scale... From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 28 10:33:41 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? Message-ID: <199707281533.AA08735@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > The 8088 would be difficult to make a hardware style front pannel like the > PDP-8e or 11/70s had but a software front pannel is doable with a spare > parallel port or homebrew IO card. It would have to ahve some software to > dump registers to lights based on switchs, load registers from switches > (at least 16 of them for data/addresses) also other things like single > stepping and single instruction would have to be handled. The other > possibility is an embedded ODT like the 11/03, 11/23 or later q-bus PDP-11s > have. IT allows memory display, changing locations, halting, running from > an address and display/load registers from a terminal(console). I.E Making a new ROM. Well, I do have the IBM PC manual that has the ROM unassembled in it... I thought those panels worked by playing with the lines on the CPU. Sounds like more work than I have time to do now. I do know that E11 lets you pull this off via the paralell port. It would be a neat trick, if I had time to work at it. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 28 11:16:12 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? Message-ID: <01ILRLOLQSCYBCFALE@cc.usu.edu> > I.E Making a new ROM. Well, I do have the IBM PC manual that has the ROM > unassembled in it... I thought those panels worked by playing with the > lines on the CPU. Sounds like more work than I have time to do now. I do > know that E11 lets you pull this off via the paralell port. It would be a > neat trick, if I had time to work at it. They do work by playing with the lines on the CPU. However, the 8088 (and most microprocessors) do not allow you to get to the internal registers from the bus. It works on the PDP-11 because the registers have a bus address; i.e., you can DMA into registers. This stopped being possible on the microprocessor implementations of the the PDP-11, which is where MicroODT fills in. Roger ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 28 13:00:51 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 Message-ID: <199707281800.AA24367@world.std.com> Quick question: 10base2 (cheapernet) thin coax eithernet: What is the minimum cable length? Everything I have has the maximum and I remember there is a minimim. Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jul 28 13:21:13 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 Message-ID: <199707281819.NAA02521@challenge.sunflower.com> Minimum is 1 meter, max is 185m 25ohm terminator at each in, 48 drops per segment. ---------- > From: Allison J Parent > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: 10base2 > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 1:00 PM > > Quick question: > > 10base2 (cheapernet) thin coax eithernet: What is the minimum cable length? > Everything I have has the maximum and I remember there is a minimim. > > Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 28 14:27:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? In-Reply-To: <01ILRLOLQSCYBCFALE@cc.usu.edu> from "Roger Ivie" at Jul 28, 97 10:16:12 am Message-ID: <9707281827.AA01054@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970728/86f0f702/attachment.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 28 13:29:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: 10base2 In-Reply-To: <199707281800.AA24367@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Quick question: > > 10base2 (cheapernet) thin coax eithernet: What is the minimum cable length? > Everything I have has the maximum and I remember there is a minimim. I think its a meter. I've successfully used cables of about 3 feet in length with no apparent problems. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From groberts at mitre.org Mon Jul 28 20:06:04 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <33D85669.2C34@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970728210604.00876dd0@mail90> At 12:31 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Greg Mast wrote: >I mean, if you guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, >you're missing a lot of deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill >has an old garage sale sticker on it. true. i recently found a tv repair shop that seems to be cleaning out his back room - lots of electronic junk piled up outside. in the pile i found an Aquarius with a 25 cent price tag on it, presumably picked up at a yard sale somewhere. Also in the pile were an Atari 800 and an Apple IIe (enhanced) with two disk drives (broken keyboard but it works!). also dozens of old printers in various state of cannibalization and a bunch of EGA monitors. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From groberts at mitre.org Mon Jul 28 20:24:06 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970728212406.00877a80@mail90> i believe it's a "dumb terminal" that uses NTSC video - probably emulates either the H19 or VT100 (or both). i think the "save" button is used in configuring (and saving) terminal options. - glenn At 04:00 PM 12/31/70 +0000, Marvin wrote: >Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems >keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a regular >keyboard but the back has an RCA jack labeled "Video Output", a 40 pin >header labeled "Printer", a pushbutton labeled "Save", a db9 male >connector labeled "Power", two phone jacks labeled "Phone Connect" and >"Wall Connect", and a switch near the phone jacks labeled >"Multiline/Single Line". Anyone have any idea what this thing is? >Thanks. > > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jul 29 02:16:23 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Epson PX-8, no power up In-Reply-To: <33DB9664.7DF771DF@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > > Thanks for that additional info! ROM1 has the Epson Portable Wordstar > ROM installed (after I took a closer look) and that back compartment > does have a ROM installed. The switch settings were the same as yours > and yes, I did try pushing that "Initial Reset" switch in the front > compartment. Now that I know the front ROMs can be pulled and the > system will still run, I'll try that and see what happens. Thanks for > the info! > > Sorry this is coming late in the cycle. Here is what the operations manual says are the steps for doing an initial reset: 1. Plug the AC adapter unit that came with your PX-8 into the adapter jack on the back of the computer. Then insert the prongs into a 12-volt AC outlet. 2. Allow the unit to charge for at least 10 minutes to give the battery enough charge for the system to be reset properly. 2. Unplug the adapter. 4. Look at the bottom of the PX-8, toward the front. There you'll find the square cover to the ROM capsule compartment. Use the finger-operated latch marked Open to remove the cover. 5. Raise the silver flap out of the way. You'll see a small button marked Initial Reset in the corner of the opening. This button has a plastic cap to keep it from being pressed accidentally. 6. Use a ballpoint pen to press the button through the hole in the top of the red cap, and you've reset the PX-8. (It doesn't matter whether the power switch is ON or OFF when you press the initial reset button. Either way, this button completely resets the PX-8.) 7. Replace the ROM capsule cover and turn the PX-8 right side up. Remove the keyboard cover and open the folding screen. I hope this is useful. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jul 29 04:36:34 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: New mailing list for old electronic calculator collectors. Message-ID: <199707290936.KAA27647@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Hi all, I have created a mailing list for the discussion of old electronic calculators. To subscribe send a message to: ecalc-request@lists.heydon.org with the single word 'subscribe' in the body of the message. Once you are subscribed you may send submissions to: ecalc@lists.heydon.org Regards -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Tue Jul 29 11:21:38 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: <33DE1892.1E34@oboe.calpoly.edu> To whomever needs that cable, I have one (maybe 2) for a C-64. $3 (postage) and it's yours. Greg From B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com Tue Jul 29 14:31:55 1997 From: B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com (Lane, Bruce A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Right idea, wrong item... Message-ID: I hate it when this happens... As it turns out, it's not an RRD40 CD-ROM drive I should be after. According to a manual I just picked up, it's the RRD50. With that in mind... Allison? Tim? Would either of you happen to have a line on a DEC RRD50 drive and controller? And no, Allison, I've not given up on MOPbooting. It would just be a Nice Thing if I didn't have to depend on that every time I needed to do a load. Thanks in advance. ==Bruce 'Why me?' Lane (kyrrin@wizards.net) From rcini at msn.com Tue Jul 29 19:56:34 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: More Altair Scans Message-ID: Hello, all: Just an update on the Altair info that my friend is scanning for me. Below is the list. He is preparing a ZIP disk for me containing the files in the PDF forman. I'll have it in a couple of weeks. He also said that he wants to scan other materials that he has, such as Altair Basic and Extended Basic manuals, the Assembler manual and others, plus the MITS "Computer Notes" as well as material from other manufacturers. I told him that I want it all (like I would really say no?) Holy, cow, what a list... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ==============>>>> The List Altair 8800 Stuff Altair 8800 Operator Manual op_man.pdf 5.49MB Altair Audio Cassette Interface 8800-acr.pdf 2.19MB Altair 4K Static RAM 8800-4mcs.pdf 1.28MB Altair 4 Parallel I/O 8800-4pio.pdf 1.77MB Altair Vector Int. & Real Time Clock 8800-virtc.pdf 1.93MB Altair 8800B Manual All Sections (338 pgs.) 8800b.pdf 26.37MB Front/Index 8800b-i.pdf 515KB Intro (Sect.1) 8800b-1.pdf 558KB Op. Guide (Sect.2) 8800b-2.pdf 6.25MB Theory of Op. (Sect.3) 8800b-3.pdf 8.51MB Troubleshooting(Sect 4) 8800b-4.pdf 3.78MB Assembly (Sect.5 8800b-5.pdf 6.31MB Parts List (App. A) 8800b-a.pdf 438KB Processor Technology 4K Static RAM 4kra.pdf 445KB Processor Technology MotherBoard pt_mb.pdf 373KB Cromemco Bytesaver bytsavr.pdf 1.22MB From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jul 29 21:04:17 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: What is this machine? (Pertec) Message-ID: I'm curious if anyone knows what this machine is. (What OS it runs, etc.) It's a Pertec machine with a 68020, Floppy, SCSI?, looks like 4MB RAM, and serial(?) ports on the back. The power supply has a "ST-100" stamped on it (along with a June 1988 date) The backplane itself has ST-98 Rev 003 written on it. The main sockets on the backplane are two 60-pin slots. It claims to be a "3226", according to the plate on the back. That info also says it's of type "P7005". I haven't seen the machine... this is info I've collected from emailling the owner. (I guess this machine is a year too new for this list. I hope you'll forgive me.) thanks ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 29 23:23:21 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics References: Message-ID: <33DEC1B9.3376582B@rain.org> I have a couple of NNC Electronics computers and am looking for information about NNC Electronics. The first NNC is a System 80 and uses an S-100 bus with an NNC CPU card, California Computer Systems 64K Dynamic Memory card and Floppy Disk Controller, and also has a CompuTime Clock/Calendar board. I haven't opened up the second to see what is inside but they both have 8" floppy drives. Anyone heard of this company or have any info? Thanks. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 30 09:15:18 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics In-Reply-To: <33DEC1B9.3376582B@rain.org> Message-ID: <573443DD5F7D@ifrsys.com> According to the _Microcomputer Buyers Guide_ (c) 1984, Byte books: "NNC offers two systems - the 80 and 80W. Basic features of the model 80 are: Z-80A processor (4MHz); 64kB RAM memory; two RS-232-C serial ports; three 8-bit parallel ports; and two Shugart 801R 8" floppy disks. The 80W offers different storage capability with one 8" floppy disk combined with one 8.4MB Winchester hard disk. The basic Model 80 and Model 80W systems are single-user in operation but can be expanded with additional terminals and printers for up to six users. A maximum of 256kb RAM memory is accomodated." The entry goes on to say that it came with CP/M standard, but you could also get OASIS from Phase One Systems "for multiuser applications". The listed address (for what it's worth) for NNC is: NNC Electronics, 15631 Computer Lane Huntington Beach, CA. 92649 Sounds like a pretty stock CP/M machine, typical of the era . . . Jeff > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:23:21 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Marvin > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: NNC Electronics > I have a couple of NNC Electronics computers and am looking for > information about NNC Electronics. The first NNC is a System 80 and > uses an S-100 bus with an NNC CPU card, California Computer Systems 64K > Dynamic Memory card and Floppy Disk Controller, and also has a CompuTime > Clock/Calendar board. I haven't opened up the second to see what is > inside but they both have 8" floppy drives. Anyone heard of this > company or have any info? Thanks. > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 30 10:16:34 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics References: <573443DD5F7D@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <33DF5AD2.96A52956@rain.org> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > According to the _Microcomputer Buyers Guide_ (c) 1984, Byte books: > > "NNC offers two systems - the 80 and 80W. Basic features of the > model 80 are: Z-80A processor (4MHz); 64kB RAM memory; two RS-232-C > serial ports; three 8-bit parallel ports; and two Shugart 801R 8" > floppy disks. The 80W offers different storage capability with one > 8" floppy disk combined with one 8.4MB Winchester hard disk. The > basic Model 80 and Model 80W systems are single-user in operation but > can be expanded with additional terminals and printers for up to six > users. A maximum of 256kb RAM memory is accomodated." Thanks, that information sure helps! BTW, does your "Microcomputer Buyers Guide" have pictures of the computers and can you tell if it is the first edition or were there earlier editions published? It sounds like an excellent resource! From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 30 10:57:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics In-Reply-To: <33DEC1B9.3376582B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have a couple of NNC Electronics computers and am looking for > information about NNC Electronics. The first NNC is a System 80 and > uses an S-100 bus with an NNC CPU card, California Computer Systems 64K > Dynamic Memory card and Floppy Disk Controller, and also has a CompuTime > Clock/Calendar board. I haven't opened up the second to see what is > inside but they both have 8" floppy drives. Anyone heard of this > company or have any info? Thanks. Haven't heard of NNC, but California Computer Systems (CCS) also made S-100 systems and I have a few of them. CCS made a whole suite of S-100 boards. I also have a CompuTime Clock/Calendar. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jrice at texoma.net Wed Jul 30 13:23:11 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: DG1 hard drive Message-ID: <33DF868F.2D76F8F5@texoma.net> Sam, do you know what hard drive a Data General One uses? James Rice From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Wed Jul 30 14:20:26 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: CD-TV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970730202026.00777648@post.keme.co.uk> Hi U lot I Had various Amigs for 6 years, sadly i sold em all off, but now collecting them again. Latest addition CD-TV, i never had one of these and hence need a few Questions answered. When i plug in the mouse, the Remote Control stops working ?? The mouse dont do anything at all ?? Any help Also can i add extra memory to it? and How ?? Aly help PLEASE. Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 30 16:57:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? References: Message-ID: <33DFB8C7.382241CD@rain.org> > > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > > > Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems > > keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a > regular Gotta love the date above; I didn't know Zenith Data Systems existed then :). Needless to say, my computer clock was set wrong. Regarding the ZTX-1-A, thanks to those who responded. I just found the description of it in the Summer, 1982 issue of Sextant. Turns out it is a Smart Communications Terminal that was officially announced at the 1982 West Coast Computer Faire. It has its own internal 300 baud modem, and is used with the Zenith ZVM video monitor, and was priced at $695. It does contain an internal battery so the unit can "remember" the names and phone numbers that are input. On a side note, when I opened up the case and saw the battery, it was just starting to corrode and would have eventually ended up ruining the circuit board. So just a reminder to all that if you are going to store computers that have batteries in them, it would be a VERY good idea to remove the batteries. In this case, the battery was soldered onto the board and I just cut the wires and put the battery in a zip-lock bag to be kept with the unit. This way if I ever go to get the unit running again, I will know what the proper battery is. I probably wouldn't remove nicads though unless the unit was going to be stored for an unknown (long) period of time and I suspected the nicads were over about 5 years old. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 30 15:13:23 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics In-Reply-To: <33DF5AD2.96A52956@rain.org> Message-ID: <58AC175659C8@ifrsys.com> Marvin, I believe the 1st edition was released in 1981. The one I have is dated 1983. I Also have an 'update' dated May, 1993. I'm not sure if any subsequent updates were published. I have had these books for probly 10 or more years, and I used to take it with me when 'On the hunt'. Oh yes, it does have pictures, although they're not always accurate. It has lots of good information on machines of the era. Jeff P.S. I'd probly commit a murder for a 1st edition };^) (I've never actually seen one, though). > > > According to the _Microcomputer Buyers Guide_ (c) 1983, Byte books: > > > > "NNC offers two systems - the 80 and 80W. Basic features of the > > model 80 are: Z-80A processor (4MHz); 64kB RAM memory; two RS-232-C > > serial ports; three 8-bit parallel ports; and two Shugart 801R 8" > > floppy disks. The 80W offers different storage capability with one > > 8" floppy disk combined with one 8.4MB Winchester hard disk. The > > basic Model 80 and Model 80W systems are single-user in operation but > > can be expanded with additional terminals and printers for up to six > > users. A maximum of 256kb RAM memory is accomodated." > > Thanks, that information sure helps! BTW, does your "Microcomputer > Buyers Guide" have pictures of the computers and can you tell if it is > the first edition or were there earlier editions published? It sounds > like an excellent resource! > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 30 13:35:31 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: NiCd and charging problem...Was: Re: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: <33DFB8C7.382241CD@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707302233.SAA28269@mail.cgocable.net> > > On a side note, when I opened up the case and saw the battery, it was > just starting to corrode and would have eventually ended up ruining the > circuit board. So just a reminder to all that if you are going to store > computers that have batteries in them, it would be a VERY good idea to > remove the batteries. In this case, the battery was soldered onto the > board and I just cut the wires and put the battery in a zip-lock bag to > be kept with the unit. This way if I ever go to get the unit running > again, I will know what the proper battery is. I probably wouldn't > remove nicads though unless the unit was going to be stored for an > unknown (long) period of time and I suspected the nicads were over about > 5 years old. Side note about my compaq LTE 386s/20 and seen the problems on old motherboards that has them on board. Lithium seems to be better luck... I think these NiCd's hates to be in discharged state for long time, my working LTE 386s/20's 3 yr old battery shorted in short order in 2 month storage after long active use periodically through 3 years. Yeech. After rebuilding that battery with exact cells, worked in fast charge just once, after that I can't get fast charge from it, now requiring 3 days to fully charge the battery. The new battery unit cost $160 cdn and I will not buy it unless I know the problem is with that rebuilt battery pack's internal circuit board or the internal power supply inside that notebook. The power supply brick is not it, already tried another one. This charging system is weird...the power brick is just that and has one wire more like "hey!, powersupply crank up that current up!" for fast charge mode. Internal power supply is just that: dc to dc convertor with bit of hardware to sense current to battery while charging. The charger is actually INSIDE the battery pack. The intenal power supply uses one SCR, two switching regulators to provide 5v with low current negative v on the side for notebook. The Compaq is not very nice to users who needs bit of more info to assist their repairs.. :( Thanks! Jason D. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 30 17:55:53 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: NiCd and charging problem...Was: Re: Zenith ????? References: <199707302233.SAA28269@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33DFC679.C4D947C0@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > I think these NiCd's hates to be in discharged state for long time, > my working LTE 386s/20's 3 yr old battery shorted in short order in 2 > month storage after long active use periodically through 3 years. > Yeech. After rebuilding that battery with exact cells, worked in fast > charge just once, after that I can't get fast charge from it, now While perhaps a bit off topic, there are ICs available that can recover bad Nicad batteries. Basically they pulse the battery with high current for a brief time (milliseconds), wait, monitor the voltage, and repeat. I've been thinking about building one since it seems like it would be a very good addition to the bench. From dhq at juno.com Wed Jul 30 19:09:02 1997 From: dhq at juno.com (David H Quackenbush) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? References: <199707302233.SAA28269@mail.cgocable.net> <33DFC679.C4D947C0@rain.org> Message-ID: <19970730.200717.7663.4.dhq@juno.com> FYI: ni-cads self discharge so fast that you can almost watch the curve on an O-scope! I use a strobe from a throw-away camera to blast the whiskers off my reluctant ni-cads. I've done this for years and it works most of the time. Try it! DavidQ. On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:55:53 -0700 Marvin writes: >jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > >> I think these NiCd's hates to be in discharged state for long time, >> my working LTE 386s/20's 3 yr old battery shorted in short order in >2 >> month storage after long active use periodically through 3 years. >> Yeech. After rebuilding that battery with exact cells, worked in >fast >> charge just once, after that I can't get fast charge from it, now > >While perhaps a bit off topic, there are ICs available that can >recover >bad Nicad batteries. Basically they pulse the battery with high >current >for a brief time (milliseconds), wait, monitor the voltage, and >repeat. >I've been thinking about building one since it seems like it would be >a >very good addition to the bench. > > > From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 30 18:57:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: Commodore 8032 (fwd) Message-ID: Did anyone see this? Sounds like a nice system. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jkeane@j51.com (Joseph Keane) Subject: FS: Commodore 8032 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:07:36 GMT For Sale: Commodore 8032 Computer (80 column screen - 32k memory) Free with computer: 2031 Single Disk Drive - Works except occassionally hangs up. All original manuals. Original owner - kept under dust cover, in great shape, with original boxes, and lots of disks, games, and word processor, with instructions. Great addition to your Commodore collection! Asking $40.00 for everything. Pick up only - Rockland County, New York. E-Mail for more information to: jkeane@j51.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 30 19:21:16 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface Message-ID: Hello, all: I know that this really doesn't fit here, since I only bought this calc yesterday, but I figure that someone here may know... I bought a TI-85 graphing calculator, and it has a 3-wire computer interface. It seems that for $40, you can buy a cable adapter to hook it to a PC's COM port. Software can be gotten from TI's Web site. I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this calc and can shed some light on it. TIA! ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 30 15:28:26 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: <19970730.200717.7663.4.dhq@juno.com> Message-ID: <199707310026.UAA13010@mail.cgocable.net> David, You did what I have heard of and discharge rate curve is all overblown unless it's was shorted internally by those whiskers. The normal self-discharge curve is 'bout few percent per week. Bad ones dies less than 2 to 3 days due to whiskers. Those caps from disposable cams is wimpy, works well most of time on AA and AAA, small ones. This type of cells I deal with are large than and heavy duty than skimpy consumer cells stuff. The good job is done with pepsi can sized capacitor or heavy current 5v power supply that will not wimp out at hint of shorts. :) I heard of this trick for blowing out hard to find shorts on circuit boards especially bypass caps using right power supply that will kick out gobs of currents at 5v, POW pop pop pop! Several bad caps blew up like dynamites and easily replaced and the board was returned to service. Really, this is short term solution unless you keep those cells charged all the time, never allowing them to discharge at all. Jason D. > FYI: ni-cads self discharge so fast that you can almost watch the curve > on an O-scope! I use a strobe from a throw-away camera to blast the > whiskers off my reluctant ni-cads. I've done this for years and it works > most of the time. > Try it! DavidQ. > On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:55:53 -0700 Marvin writes: > >jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 30 20:22:21 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: I'm back Message-ID: You may not have noticed ;) but I've been too busy to do anything list-related for the last couple weeks. I'll catch up on the old messages soon. New stuff: 1. After a 2 week linux installation the classiccmp server is on-line (yeah, it was really ugly). Anyway we now have a couple gigs of storage space available. If you want to create anything for the web site I can provide space. The web site is now http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp/ The ftp site is now ftp://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/pub/classiccmp/ 2. I will be taking a week-long vacation in San Luis Obispo, CA in early september. There is a huge computer scrap-yard in the area that I will be checking out. If any of you local to the area would like to join up for that, let me know. Bill Whitson From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 30 17:02:59 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707310201.WAA25739@mail.cgocable.net> > Hello, all: > > I know that this really doesn't fit here, since I only bought this calc > yesterday, but I figure that someone here may know... > > I bought a TI-85 graphing calculator, and it has a 3-wire computer interface. > It seems that for $40, you can buy a cable adapter to hook it to a PC's COM > port. Software can be gotten from TI's Web site. > > I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm > guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but > before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this > calc and can shed some light on it. > > TIA! Hi! Sorry to throw wet towel on you...those "dongle" interface kit guess what has little complex board inside. Real sucker really. We did that this year to see if we can do that too. :) Jason D. From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 30 20:27:39 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? Message-ID: I have a line on some Radio Shack Model 100 stuff in the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina. The guy wants to sell ("no reasonable offer refused") the stuff in a lot, but I only need a few parts of it. Below is the list. If someone wants it (except the ones marked with "*"), let me know. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ==============>>> The List Lots of Model 100 Stuff in Good Condition 2 Model 100's 24K- good condition 1 Portable Disk Drive 2 (*) 1 Disk Video Interface- New Condition 1 Modem Acoustic Cups (*) 1 Radio Shack CTR Tape Recorder (works well) 1 Service Manual and Tech Ref Manual (*) Miscellaneous software and accessories, cables etc. From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jul 30 23:39:13 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970731003911.00bac900@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca happened to blather: >> I know that this really doesn't fit here, since I only bought this calc >> yesterday, but I figure that someone here may know... >> >> I bought a TI-85 graphing calculator, and it has a 3-wire computer interface. >> It seems that for $40, you can buy a cable adapter to hook it to a PC's COM >> port. Software can be gotten from TI's Web site. >> >> I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm >> guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but >> before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this >> calc and can shed some light on it. >Sorry to throw wet towel on you...those "dongle" interface kit guess >what has little complex board inside. Real sucker really. > >We did that this year to see if we can do that too. :) Hold on there, pardner! This isn't nearly as complex as you think. If the TI is anything like my Casio FX9700G graphic calculator, with the funky 3-wire headphone hookup, you can most likely do it with 1 or 2 chips or even just some diodes and resistors. What it is, is the interface is an *almost* standard RS-232 interface. Speed and all is normal, but it prolly only works on TTL levels. The PDDs (Portable Disk Drives) from Tandy to be used on their old, non-MS-Dos laptops did the same thing... used RS-232 but only at +5V and 0V levels. Use a diode to change the -12V to 0V, and resistors to change the +12V to +5V .. it helps to have a cable to test first for that one, tho. On the Tandy PDDs, the resistor value was 22K Ohms IIRC and any cheap .6V drop diode would do (read: 1N914 -- everybody's buddy) Otherwise, just design a small, self-powered 1488/1489 box to convert the levels, and you're off and running. I was planning on doing this for my Casio, but haven't had the time just yet. (Maybe I can just use my TPDD cable... hooking up the appropriate wires??? Something to think about.) Anyway, I hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 31 00:17:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: 1st Annual Listserver get together References: Message-ID: <33E01FFB.DB6DB058@rain.org> Bill Whitson wrote: > 2. I will be taking a week-long vacation in San Luis Obispo, CA in > early september. There is a huge computer scrap-yard in the area that > > I will be checking out. If any of you local to the area would like > to join up for that, let me know. Since San Luis Obispo is only about 90 miles north, I'd love to meet you up there and see the Atascadero scrap yard! Hmmm, since San Francisco is only about 3 hours north of San Luis (okay, so I drive fast :) ), why can't the Bay area crowd meet us all down there too. Sounds like the first annual Classic Computer Listserver get-together is now being planned! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 31 00:20:44 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? References: Message-ID: <33E020AC.AC57791E@rain.org> Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > I have a line on some Radio Shack Model 100 stuff in the Research > Triangle > Park area of North Carolina. The guy wants to sell ("no reasonable > offer > refused") the stuff in a lot, but I only need a few parts of it. Below > is the > list. If someone wants it (except the ones marked with "*"), let me > know. Depending on the price, I would be interested in one of the Model 100s. I think I have most of the other stuff except perhaps the service manual. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu Jul 31 01:56:37 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Some More Stuff on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33E03725.7D66@oboe.calpoly.edu> A few more items I listed in the auction. Not much interest in the Mac+ logic board, Mac SE supply or the Disk II card so they might be THE deal. Make sure you read the descriptions on the web page before bidding. Apple Imagewriter II Current bid: $31.00 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:22:12 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lfc15929 Apple Disk II Interface Card Current bid: $2.50 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:46:46 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=scn04925 **Brand New** Macintosh SE Main Logic Board! Current bid: $14.00 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:53:39 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=cxa461 Macintosh SE Power Supply Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:58:13 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=kdc0985 Apple Imagewriter I Spare Parts Kit (Factory) Current bid: $11.50 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 14:18:56 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=dey14024 Macintosh Plus Main Logic Board - New! Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 08/05/97, 20:23:05 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ujt40487 Thanks! Greg From adam at merlin.net.au Thu Jul 31 04:22:37 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Honeywell Microsystem 6 Message-ID: Hi! I recently picked up one of these beasts at a second-hand store, and managed to assemble her and get her running. However, I have been unable to find out anything about them other than they run the 8086 processor. Can anyone tell me something more? Like what the OS is, when they were made, and what tehir arcitecture was? Honeywell, unsuprisingly, couldn't help, and I found nothing on the web. Thanks heaps, Adam. From ampage at geocities.com Thu Jul 31 07:28:28 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? References: Message-ID: <33E084EC.FE0498F9@geocities.com> What's the Disk Video Interface? From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Jul 31 07:52:36 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:04 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Jul 31, 97 00:21:16 am Message-ID: <199707311252.IAA26918@hiway1.exit109.com> > I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm > guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but > before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this > calc and can shed some light on it. Two places to check out: http://www.ticalc.org news:bit.listserv.calc-ti I beleive there are plans floating around for a $5 interface cable. Also, lots of 3rd party apps for the '85. <<>> From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jul 31 08:00:25 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Weekend haul Message-ID: <199707311324.GAA28870@mx4.u.washington.edu> I picked up an absolutely perfect Commodore SX-64 (used 5 times) and a VIC-20 with box and all flyers, etc (used once). I find the included stuff fascinating (almost as much so as the machines themselves) as they recapture the flavor of the era. The SX-64 documentation makes reference to a DX-64. What's that -- 2 drives? Also, the SX-64 refused to read (known good) disks at first, then read fine. Suppose a film had built up on the head, which the disks "scrubbed"? Anyone ever see that happen? Anyone want either? Make an offer. From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jul 31 08:03:32 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: ATARI XE FS Message-ID: <199707311324.GAA28128@mx3.u.washington.edu> I've been offered an Atari XE system (1987, I think). Works, as far as I know. $30 + S/H is wanted. Anyone want it? From gram at cnct.com Thu Jul 31 09:38:43 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? In-Reply-To: <33E084EC.FE0498F9@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Asterisk wrote: > What's the Disk Video Interface? Basically, it's sort of a primitive attempt at a docking station. It's a (rather large) box that connects through a ribbon cable and _very_ fragile connector to the expansion port of a Model 100. It provides a single-sided double-density disk drive (room for one more -- I do not know of any with a second drive installed) and composite video output (RCA jack) to a monitor or channel 3/4 output to a television. This permitted the Model 100 to have a 80x24 or 40x24 display when connected. The box is far larger than it needs to be and is mostly hollow. The DOS is quite sparse, and the disk file directory looks much like the RAM file directory. It added hooks to BASIC for disk file I/O etc. To the best of my knowledge it did not work with and there was no equivalent product for the Olivetti or NEC machines. An innovative concept, and like many of Tandy's most innovative concepts such as the Tandy 2000 and the Microchannel systems, it sank almost without a trace. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 31 09:24:58 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP11/24 CPU switches Message-ID: Header just about says it all. I'm trying to get an 11/24 fired up, and it seems to be somewhat single minded in what device it expects to boot on startup. Right now, its got an RL02 and RX02 on it and does not appear to be lookoing at either of them. So... does anyone have a handy reference to the configuration switches located on the CPU board which will define the boot (and other) options? Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 31 09:27:20 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:39:13 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >>Use a diode to change the -12V to 0V, and resistors to change the +12V to +5V .. it helps to have a cable to test first for that one, tho. On the Tandy PDDs, the resistor value was 22K Ohms IIRC and any cheap .6V drop diode would do (read: 1N914 -- everybody's buddy)<< It's funny that you said this. I just looked at an RS-232 level shifter circuit on the MIT MiniBoard robotics controller that used a transistor, two LEDs and a handful of resistors to accomplish that, but it needs 5v to operate. Really what I need is a parasitic converter that's powered off of the serial port itself. I've seen this done with a MAX232 or a Dallas 12?? chip. Hmmmm, time to circuit-hunt. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET e-mail: rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 31 10:53:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Weekend haul In-Reply-To: <199707311324.GAA28870@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > I picked up an absolutely perfect Commodore SX-64 (used 5 times) and a > VIC-20 with box and all flyers, etc (used once). I find the included stuff > fascinating (almost as much so as the machines themselves) as they > recapture the flavor of the era. Yes. I love it when I get something in the original box because having the literature that accompanied it is great for research. A lot of times you can find out about peripherals and other products that were released around this product. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 31 10:55:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: ATARI XE FS In-Reply-To: <199707311324.GAA28128@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > I've been offered an Atari XE system (1987, I think). Works, as far as I > know. > > $30 + S/H is wanted. Anyone want it? What stuff comes with that for $30? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 31 13:30:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP11/24 CPU switches In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jul 31, 97 07:24:58 am Message-ID: <9707311730.AA07166@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3769 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970731/a9267d87/attachment.ksh From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Thu Jul 31 12:52:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: I'm back Message-ID: It's about time. ---------- From: Bill Whitson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: I'm back Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 9:22PM You may not have noticed ;) but I've been too busy to do anything list-related for the last couple weeks. I'll catch up on the old messages soon. New stuff: 1. After a 2 week linux installation the classiccmp server is on-line (yeah, it was really ugly). Anyway we now have a couple gigs of storage space available. If you want to create anything for the web site I can provide space. The web site is now http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp/ The ftp site is now ftp://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/pub/classiccmp/ 2. I will be taking a week-long vacation in San Luis Obispo, CA in early september. There is a huge computer scrap-yard in the area that I will be checking out. If any of you local to the area would like to join up for that, let me know. Bill Whitson From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jul 31 13:20:13 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Free Computer Books & Stuff! Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970731112215.3a37e3ce@ricochet.net> At 08:23 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote: >TRS-80 Model 100 Manuals: >These are photocopies of the originals but are bound together like real >manuals. Service Manual, Owner's Manual and 2 little Quick Reference >manuals. >Shipping is $2.25 book rate. If these are still available, I'd love to take them off your hands! (I have three m100's and only 1 owner's manual; none of the others.) Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jul 31 15:15:46 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: ATARI XE FS Message-ID: <199707312040.NAA23553@mx2.u.washington.edu> Books, keyboard and manuals. ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: Re: ATARI XE FS > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 12:33 PM > > On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > > > I've been offered an Atari XE system (1987, I think). Works, as far as I > > know. > > > > $30 + S/H is wanted. Anyone want it? > > What stuff comes with that for $30? > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jul 31 17:28:25 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: System/36 Hardware Key Message-ID: If I do buy this System/36, I need to be able to boot it. A key is needed to boot the computer. The key switch has 3 positions: Normal, Locked, and Service. The switch has to be in the Service position to boot. It's currently in the Normal position. There are 3 wires on the back of the keyswitch. One for each position, I think. Which ones would I cross to boot? +------- Wire one. Normal position. / \ +---------- Wire two. Locked position. \ / +------- Wire three. Service position. From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 31 21:51:50 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Free Computer Books & Stuff! In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970731112215.3a37e3ce@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 08:23 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote: > >TRS-80 Model 100 Manuals: > >These are photocopies of the originals but are bound together like real > >manuals. Service Manual, Owner's Manual and 2 little Quick Reference > >manuals. > >Shipping is $2.25 book rate. > > If these are still available, I'd love to take them off your hands! (I have > three m100's and only 1 owner's manual; none of the others.) Thanks! I have a book - The TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer - by David A. Lien. Radio Shack Cat. No. 26-3819 Pub. CompuSoft Publishing C. 1983 Half the book is on Basic programming on the 100 the other half about the 100 and it's software. Anybody who wants it - Let me know. You get to pay shipping anywhere - book rate is cheapest. BC From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 31 22:57:39 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Info References: Message-ID: <33E15EB3.A6C0BEAD@rain.org> I just had a call from a friend of mine, Brian Mumford, who did some software work for the TRS-80 computers back in the late 70's and early 80's. He had a company called Mumford Micro Systems and besides software, also published at least one book; the one I have is called "Inside Level II, A Programmer's Guiide to the TRS-80 ROMS". I told him I was also collecting historical info on the various computers and what went along with them. He is willing to help however he can. He also turned my on to another guy active with TRS stuff, Dave Lagerquist. Dave took over as editor-in-chief of CLOAD Magazine in July 1980. On top of that, Dave lives here in Santa Barbara, so another part of my project will be compiling a history of CLOAD magazine. So if any of you TRS people have any questions for either Brian or Dave, pass them along. I'll be calling Dave probably next week after Fiesta (a Santa Barbara tradition) is over. From bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu Wed Jul 30 20:10:50 1997 From: bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu (Rob Bedeaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? Message-ID: <33e17d1166ac005@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Hi Kai:: I don't remeber if I got back to you about the Lisa. If I did, I guess just ignore this post. You had mentioned that you do not have access to the Office system. I have a set of disk images of the Office system as well as the workshop that I can email you if you would like. Also, I have information on removing the serialization if you already have a serialized set you would like to install. Rob From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jul 1 06:56:02 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:05 2005 Subject: One for you mainframe and mini types Message-ID: <33B8F052.151F@unix.aardvarkol.com> for those of you interested in mainframes and minis, there's an unknown piece of test equipment going for sale on AuctionWeb, item# yzx34561. it sounds pretty interesting,if one has a use for such a piece of equipment. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 1 02:53:42 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:06 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <2010@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B8B786.6F47@ndirect.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 > is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program > instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. O, come on......of course you can go to work everyday with a penny farthing (early bicycles with the very different sized wheels) but would you? enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From kyrrin at wizards.net Tue Jul 1 08:09:00 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:07 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 In-Reply-To: <199706300702.AAA03766@lists3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970701060900.00f809f0@mail.wizards.net> Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 18:16:33 +0000 From: "e.tedeschi" To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <33B6A681.66DE@ndirect.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >> On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: >> >> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms >> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? Absolutely right, Daniel! Thanks... Then Enrico responded with... >Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a >Ferrari a "goto work car"?) I've seen at least a pair of them used for exactly that about 20 miles east of me in Bellevue (the local Yuppie haven). If someone's got enough bucks to own one of those things, you better believe they're going to get good use out of it. ;-) The whole definition argument seems pretty pointless, Enrico. That's what I was trying to say in the first place. If you want to set your own definitions of what constitutes a 'home computer,' that's fine. The rest of us will happily(?) continue to use whatever strikes our fancy for computing hardware in the home (a much better definition, I think). As has been pointed out, this group is for discussion of 'classic' computers. Bill Whitson's definition of 'classic,' in this case, refers to ANY machine that is ten years or more old. Period. Since MicroVAXen and other DEC machines fall neatly into that category, I will continue to discuss them with others on this group. Period. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have work to do on this beautiful 12-year old HP drafting plotter I just bought (replace a couple of switches, clean it up, and it'll be good to go, especially once I hook it to the MicroVAX!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 08:52:00 1997 From: Pete at madhippy.demon.co.uk (Pete Robinson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:08 2005 Subject: ibm 3178c Message-ID: i've got an ibm 3178 c, anyone know what it is? (it's look like some kind of terminal) seems to be in 3 main parts i) monitor ii) base of monitor iii) bit that seems to go under base of monitor cheers for any info -- Pete Robinson pete@madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, web utilities. From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jul 1 10:40:57 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:08 2005 Subject: PCjr Cartridges? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970701084517.3e9fa766@mail.crl.com> At 11:17 PM 6/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have, >BASIC All I saw were BASIC cartridges... I'll let you know if anything else turns up. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Tue Jul 1 10:48:54 1997 From: stuart at colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:08 2005 Subject: who's on first? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:31:35 EDT." <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <199707011548.KAA03990@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> As said by Merch: >Uh, actually, try October 1939... with the ABC. That's the Atanasoff - >Berry Computer, which is now recognized as the first functional electronic >computer. I posted 2 or 3 URL's for more info on the web, if there's a >searchable archive of this list, check there for my post. If not, I'll look >it up in mine if I still have it. > >BTW, you're timeline is still a bit off... IIRC John von Neumann invented >the stored-program concept, didn't he? It was Markus & someone who designed >the first UNIVAC mostly with concepts hijacked from the ABC... methinks it >was in 1972 or so when the U.S. Patent office yanked the patent away from >them and gave it back to Atanasoff & Berry. I depends on how you define "computer." Oh no, not another definition war... In what follows I'll try not to use the word computer in isolation. Around the late 1930's there were three groups that were developing machines that would have some claim to the status of pioneering computing devices. At Iowa State, there was the ABC as mentioned. At Harvard, Howard Aiken was developing the Mark I (actuall built by IBM under the name Automatic Sequence Controlled Calculator) and in Germany, Konrad Zuse was building his Z1 in his parent's living room. All three were architected by people who were motivated to solve difficult mathematical problems, and all three had some interesting technological aspects. The ABC was electronic. That is, it used active electrical devices which in those days meant tubes (valves). It also had an interesting dynamic memory system that foreshadowed the delay line memories and later dynamic semiconductor memory. As to purpose, the ABC was very much a single purpose machines; it was to solve simultaneuous linear equations. It was also not particularly automatic in operation. The human operator was responsible for taking temporary results in the form of punched cards and putting them back in as new data to be operated upon. To what degree the device worked is not at all clear. The card punching mechanism was based on a spark burning holes in the card and was reported by Atanasoff and Berry as not ever working reliably enough to solve useful sized problems. There has also been some question raised as to whether or not the circuits would have ever worked reliably. The Harvard Mark I was (according to Aiken) based on Babbage's designs for the Analytical Engine. Though if you read Babbage carefully and look at the Mark I design, there were some things that either Aiken didn't fully understand or that Aiken decided were too hard to implement, so the Mark I was less capable than the Analytical Engine would have been (at least some of Babbage's designs would have been). It was an electromechanical device driven by punched tape. (Actually uncut punched card stock.) This machine was much more general purpose and did work reliably and was used by the Navy. Grace Hopper cut her computing teeth on that machine. The Z1 was also designed as a general purpose calculator that was driven by punched tape. In Zuse's case, the tape was discarded movie film. His machine was fully mechanical though and binary in contrast to the decimal Mark I. It also used a floating point representation as opposed to the Mark I's fixed point. A fourth project began late in this same time, the ENIAC. It's genesis also came from difficult mathematical problems and it was funded by the Army. John Mauchley was interested in weather prediction and began discussing a machine to do it with J. Presper Eckert. Mauchley was a Physicist and Eckert an Electrical Engineer. Eckert was quite familiar with the use of electronic circuits as counters for radar and for counting nuclear events. During the development of the project, Mauchley met Atanasoff at a conference and began comparing notes. Atanasoff invited Mauchley to come to ISU for a visit which Mauchley later did. It was this visit that later provided one nail in the patent cofin. The ENIAC was also a general purpose calculator. It was electronic and decimal. Since the electronics were much faster than the mechanical systems, punched tape or cards would not have kept up as a control mechanism, so it was patchboard programmed. It did have the capability to read data from punched card. (Later a clever engineer did devise a way for it to be programmed by it's bank of coefficient switches for a crude stored program capability. However, this was still not as general as what was to come.) The machine was very much like a combination of an electronic version of the Harvard Mark I and a digital version of the differential analyzers that Bush and others had built. During this project, in 1944, Eckert wrote a paper about magnetic disk devices and as an aside mentioned the possibility that the sequencing instructions could be kept on the disk along with the data, providing the earliest description of stored programming. Before ENAIC was completed, work began on it successor, the EDVAC. This machine was to be a stored program machine. After the design work had been started but before it was completed, von Neumann joined the project and along the way wrote the now famous First Draft paper. Because Eckert's earlier paper had been lost/forgotten, this became the blueprint for all stored program computer work for many years. Von Neumann indicated that he put his name alone on it just because it was a rough draft, but was planning to put the other names (Eckert, Mauchley and others) on the final version. Several on the project felt that he was trying to steal credit for himself though. In 1946, Penn (where this was taking place) hosted a meeting about building computers and the cork was out of the bottle. Projects sprang up at Princeton (led by von Neumann), at Manchester (led by Wilkes IIRC) and at Cambridge in addition to the work at Penn. While all this was going on, Eckert and Mauchley decided to file for patents on the ENIAC. Penn decided to change its patent policy at the same time and asked Eckert and Mauchley to sign over their rights to the University. They declined (over and over again) and left to start the Eckert- Mauchley Computer Company, which through many changes of hands is now part of Unisys. Over the next few years, the Manchester folks first got a small (memory wise) version of their Mark I up and running. Soon thereafter, the folks at Cambridge got the EDSAC up and running and then Eckert and Mauchley got the BINAC up and running in the states. Well, it was apparantly running in the lab. There's been some disagreement on whether or not it ever ran reliably after it was shipped to the customer site. These were the first stored-program computers to be built. It took many years for the patents on the ENIAC to be granted during which time, the computer industry had really taken off. Once they were granted, Honewell and Sperry (then the owner of UNIVAC the successor to EMCC) sued each other. The ABC was used as part of the case. The judge did state in his opinion that ENIAC was substantially derrived from the ABC, but the patents were also overturned on the basis of having been filed too late. Inventors have 1 year after the invention is made public. It seems that there was a demonstration of the machine prior to 1 year before the filing. I (and others) disagree that ENIAC was substantally derrived from ABC. The only similarity seems to be the fact that they were electronic and the idea of electronic counters (which is most of what ENIAC was) had been in place and well known by Eckert before the Mauchley trip to ISU. I don't mean this to dimish the importance of the ABC as the first electronic special-purpose calculator, nor does the ABC dimish the importance of the ENIAC as the first general-purpose electronic calculator. Historically, the ENIAC had a much greater influence, spawning the whole of computing as we know it today. Atanasoff went on to other things and had no dealings with computing except working on the patent trial, and the ABC was dismantled and mostly forgotten. Brian L. Stuart Math/CS Dept, Rhodes College, Memphis, TN stuartb@acm.org http://www.mathcs.rhodes.edu/~stuart/ From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 1 11:13:39 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:08 2005 Subject: Flex for 6809/6800 Message-ID: <33ba2c37.917971@news.zippo.com> Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. Ben From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 1 09:27:36 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: References: <199707010236.WAA06338@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789@mail.cgocable.net> Jeff, > I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't > handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy > drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out > behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. Why not check out the external 5.25" internals? Point is, can use those easier to obtain 1.44mb drives and use them as 720k in old XT's in place of harder to find 720k drives. I did that just like that in one of those IBM XT using its original controller and a brand new 20 bux 1.44 in PC that allowed me to fire it up with my 720k Dos 5.0 and install it to hd also allows user to interchange data with newer pcs easily. 360k was 40 tracks by 9 sectors, 720k used 80 tracks but the older controller controlled this drives no problem therefore any newer 1.44 will work as a 720k duty. In fact, 1.44 and 720k drives only differs in minor ways: higher frequency heads, extra sensor put in to support the 18 sectors. BIG snap! > Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I > believe. One needs the > PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two > additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about > the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into > one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the > drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power > through the ribbon cable. Thanks for correction and oddball mHz? Most clones uses 8mHz. If you could look in external drive, it might have adapter wirings that will allow you to make new cables adapters for that "1.44" as 720k drives to put in your HX machine. nip! > Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the > low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one > though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it > might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy > didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time. Yeah, but I considered the Tandy's pcs after 286 machines was made then back to 8088's, 386 and 486 was study in quality stuff but one hot rebuke to Tandy for NOT putting in cache for both 386 and 486 machines. :( When I aquired the Tandy 486 EP, used it to run Linux and X windows on it, graphic engine performance is not there and if it did have cache it would be a keeper but I traded it away to my friend's for other items. Right now it's using win95 on it and my friend is going to buy a ISA based windows accelerator card for it. :( The early first 1000 and maybe 2000 that used 2 sided boards looked grabage similar to their 8 bit machines that I seen along with some small percentage is not totally XT compatible. But after 286, things improved enough to be a decent pc. Then RS dropped ball and let competiters' PC's sold through RS. :( Plus they always asks too much $ through and what kicks me hard was canadian RS, yes I am canadian, tried to ask for heatsink paste there because I saw they did have some but no longer stocked so I reduked them for that unwise decision. And took the $ to my friend's local audio repair business to order it in 1oz tube for 15 bux. I also asked my other friend living in USA to check RS to see if RS still stocks these white stuff. Consider a warning for canadian who needs vital stuff from RS. :) (Question: did Tandy used 386dx chips in their machines and those sissy 386sx? I have seen few that did used 386sx but not dx ones... and external cache in one of these machine?) Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 1 15:03:11 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: who's on first? Message-ID: <199707012003.AA15046@world.std.com> . > seems to be the fact that they were electronic and the idea > of electronic counters (which is most of what ENIAC was) had This is fairly complete history of electronic computings origins however there were several electric (relay logic) designs not mentioned here. While slow they capitialized on the then fairly mature telephone realys of varying design. They were generally of two types the contactor or n-pole double throw or the stepping(counting) with typically 11 positions. The later could be used to make counters or registers. In the early years (pre about '44) these were used to make calculator type machines of the programmed or fixed type. Allison From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 16:45:05 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: who's on first? In-Reply-To: <199707011548.KAA03990@mathcs.rhodes.edu.> References: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:31:35 EDT." <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <867790006.1113369.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> On 1 Jul 97 at 10:48, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > Around the late 1930's there were three groups that were developing There's no mention here of the "computer" used by the British during WWII at Bletchley Park. The British computer press often refer to this as the first electronic programmable computer (although i've always been reluctant to believe that outright as i'm aware that project were well underway in the US and elsewhere at that time). It was certainly used first in around 1940/1941 to break German codes and i think it was instrumental in breaking the famous Enigma code and thereby contributed greatly to the allied war effort. I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) fits in the timeline discussed here and indeed whether or not it was the first electronic programmable computer in the world. If this is getting a little off-topic for this list please mail me direct. ...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From marcw at lightside.com Tue Jul 1 14:19:28 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: <199707012147.OAA24515@covina.lightside.com> > On 01-Jul-97, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > >Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball > > I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't > handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy > drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out > behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. > I've been using my HX for some ten years now. Since it won't die it's been upgraded quite a bit. Anyhind, I didn't even know the HX's shipped without a 3.5" floppy. That was standard. Maybe a Shack guy removed it to sell it to someone way back when. > > Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I believe. One needs the > PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two > additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about > the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into > one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the > drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power > through the ribbon cable. > SCSI is what I have on this one also. A 2.5" drive works fine but the other stuff doesn't. When I had the RLL and later an IDE (for a few days), they all got power from the controller card. Some RLL's have power leads on the controller. DCS (Tandy 3rd party stuff) had the IDE stuff. Didn't pay attention where the connectors were on the 8-bit card. > Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the > low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one > though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it > might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy > didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time. > > Jeff Hmm, a 286 design in this shell would've been nice. I didn't realize how compact this case was 'til a neighbor came by with a Toshiba 286 laptop recently. The thing was huge. Ten years and my Tandy 1000 HX keeps running. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw@lightside.com Lightside, Inc. marc.williams@mb.fidonet.org The MailBox BBS marc.williams@652.sasbbs.com Paradigm Shift BBS IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 1 16:52:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Help identify these Atari S-100 Boards (fwd) Message-ID: Here is a reply I got from alt.atari.2600 on my Atari S-100 boards. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jjessop1@home.com (Jerry Jessop) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit,alt.atari.2600 Subject: Re: Help identify these Atari S-100 Boards Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:08:30 GMT Sam, Looks like you found some boards used in the old 2600 in-house development systems. These units were Cromemco S-100 based computers with the appropriate Atari S-100 cards installed. This system in turn was connected to a PDP-11. Of course they could also be coin-op development tools, hard to tell without looking at them. jj On 30 Jun 1997 00:37:22 GMT, dastar@crl.com (Sam Ismail) wrote: > >I just discovered some *VERY* interesting S100 boards that I didn't >realize I had in my box 'o S-100 boards. They seem to be some kind of >Atari development/prototyping system. The boards are: > >65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, Rev. 2, (c) 1983 Atari > [this is the PCB only] > >Trace Memory Interface, part no. 100-002-2 (two of these) > has (3) Intersil 6402 chips and (3) 26-pin connectors (for interface to a > terminal), DIP switches to select the baud rate for the 6402 chips (up to > 38400 bps). Also has a 40-pin (2-rows of 20) ribbon cable connector > labelled J100. One has a test sticker on it with "OK 10/25/82" written > on it. > >6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, Rev. 4 > has a 6502 and some other stuff, such as a clock speed DIP switch > (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a 40-pin ribbon cable connector > which presumably connects to the Trace Memory Interface card (labelled > COMP BUS J100). > I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete (does not have all the > chips the other one does, for instance the 6502). > >All have the Atari name and logo in yellow lettering. > >Any idea what this stuff is and what it was used for? > >If you can shed any light, please reply to dastar@crl.com. Thanks! -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From lynn at ferberts.com Tue Jul 1 19:30:13 1997 From: lynn at ferberts.com (Lynn Perez-Hewitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: collection value Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970701173012.00703444@pop.ferberts.com> Are old (classic) computer magazines worth more now than the issues price? Example: original first issue of BYTE magazine? Or can I tell my husband to throw them out and give away the tin shed? Lynn Lynn Perez-Hewitt lynn@ferberts.com P.O. Box 1630 Oracle, AZ 85623 520.896.9316 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Tue Jul 1 23:01:20 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: collection value References: <3.0.32.19970701173012.00703444@pop.ferberts.com> Message-ID: <33B9D290.6@unix.aardvarkol.com> A few weeks ago, there were some questions posted concerning the Trackstar board that was sold by Tandy Corp. some years ago. Here is the spec sheet on this board that I found on thier website. It has not been edited. ****************************************************************************** Trackstar E (250-1038) Features Faxback Doc. # 5540 The Trackstar E is a 65C02 Parallel Processor board. It may be installed into any IBM PC, XT, AT, 386 or compatible, and will provide you with the ability to run Apple software on those machines. The Trackstar E supports most Apple features and contains enhancements not present on the original Apple systems. Your Trackstar E comes standard with the following features: * 65C02 Microprocessor * 128K Main Memory * 40 & 80 column Text * Apple LoRes, HiRes, and Double High Res Graphics * Supports up to four disk drives * Supports a hard disk drive * Supports standard Serial and Parallel ports * Apple compatible 5.25" disk drive port * Apple IIc compatible game port * Thunderclock compatible Apple clock. (SMM/jlc-03/28/94) ********************************************************************************* -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 1 20:08:41 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055FFF87@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? I tried putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the "Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? Any info appreciated!! (anyone have a spare keyboard? I need a few keys) thanks Kai From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 18:46:33 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2060@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33B8B786.6F47@ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 > > is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program > > instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. > > O, come on......of course you can go to work everyday with a penny > farthing (early bicycles with the very different sized wheels) but would > you? If I rode a bicycle, and had a penny-farthing, I might well use it, yes. Please give me one _good_ reason not to. While I can think of other things that would be a good as the MK-14 for (say) I2C chip testing (a microcontroller board springs to mind), I can't think of anything that would be _better_. The origianl statement stands. I can't think of a single computer system (owned by me or not) that can't be used for useful work in 1997. The fact that it's old has nothing to do with it. I can think of many applications that need fast machines with plenty of memory. I'd not use (most) classic computers for those. But as I rarely need to do such work, I see no reason _not_ to use a classic. > > enrico -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 1 18:58:50 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 Message-ID: <2062@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <3.0.1.32.19970701060900.00f809f0@mail.wizards.net> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > >> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > >> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) At one time I had a PDP8/e and a PDP11/44 _on my desk_. They were thus desktop computers :-). The 11/44 is now elsewhere, since I now have the 8/e's peripherals on my desk.... From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 1 23:02:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Recycling Computers References: <3.0.32.19970701173012.00703444@pop.ferberts.com> <33B9D290.6@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <33B9D2BB.32F7@rain.org> In checking through the net, I found http://www.advancedrecovery.com/nytext.html, which is a NY Times article that talks about recycling, dismantling, etc. of old computers. It is interesting!!! From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 1 19:05:00 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055FFF87@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199707020404.AAA21337@mail.cgocable.net> Kai, Wow, LISA! It's a relic nonelessness but to amire at. :) This is kinda of a abortive experiment with "Mac" stuff then Mac became closed up and popular next year. Also very rare too! Thank yourself for not getting Lisa 1 type...it used 5.25" duo disk. Gah! Dual head cutouts not one like those 360/1.22 disks. You *MIGHT* have a stuck brake on that hard drive, easily correctable. Good thing you asked. :) The 10mb model uses nonstandard interfaced 10mb 5.25" FH size. Now, did you hear the "clunk" or not right after module tests? If no "clunk" the brake is not releasing the hard drive to allow it spin up. The error should show: Four horizontal fine lines with "crossed" check on it and error code 81 under this symbol? If you do, or different problem let me know! Lisa is odd ball enough to not able to run regular mac programs, it needs the Lisaworks stuff and troughie thing is this hard drive is not formatted like we do with most macs...! > I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. > > The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a > MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like > it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular > Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. > > How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? I tried > putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the > "Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. With hd out of action, this "XL" machine is still stock 2/10 unless the XL software is started first then allowing you to boot proper disk. Cannot borrow any disk else from different macs for this XL but with this stuff provided by this company. That is clearly previous owner missed the point of not giving you original stuff that came with this XL. > > Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? > > Any info appreciated!! Okie, Lisa 2/10 and Lisa XL is no different in hardware but used different operating system. Lisa 2/10 uses Lisa OS and Lisa XL uses Macintosh System software *AND* MacWorks XL a lisa program is a Mac 64k emulation to run the mac stuff. Booting on XL type is in two stages: boot from hd to load the mac ROM software and "restarts" itself and boot from hd to load Mac OS/finder. Reminds me of LBA driver style on non-LBA machines with >500mb hd attached. :) The Lisa 2/10 is very desireable to upgrade to scsi capable, expand the screen image to bigger screen and 800k upgrade with ROM added and with new Mac system software and MacWorks Plus. There is hardware hack to add more addressing lines to break the 2mb limit to 4mb. > > (anyone have a spare keyboard? I need a few keys) Dunno. ask around.. :( > > thanks No problem! > > Kai Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 1 19:24:19 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Recycling Computers In-Reply-To: <33B9D2BB.32F7@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707020423.AAA22934@mail.cgocable.net> My hosent opinion: Gah! That is more of a recycler than reselling complete system cheaply to users who would want them. what left of it can be done recycled which is my preference. > In checking through the net, I found > http://www.advancedrecovery.com/nytext.html, which is a NY Times article > that talks about recycling, dismantling, etc. of old computers. It is > interesting!!! In Canadian Crown assents, computers is *ALWAYS* sold via auction only asking too much and disappears for ever. :( ALso especially in miltery, drills holes into chips and shred boards into 2" squares, hard drive is stipped down and platters is removed which is cut up and melted down under strict protection even the hd is from low risk area. :-( ) They WONT release hard drive units for warrenty repairs because, I knew because I saw a note at one of business that they deal with to request a new board or exhange from a hd maker to extract the data. Horrible and that why I did not see any significient stuff around here to grab. Jason D. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 1 23:23:38 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: FAQ Bonanza Message-ID: ============================================================================= DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 2.1, 3.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Mailing Lists ---------------- 1.1 Mailing List Basics 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot How to set to Digest How to Subscribe How to Unsubscribe 2. FTP ------ 2.1 FTP Basics 3. World Wide Web ----------------- 3.1 WWW Basics ============================================================================= 1.1 Mailing List Basics A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution list. 1.2 How to Talk to the Robot There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To send a command to the list processor, write a message to listproc@u.washington.edu (Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following commands, then send the message. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. This is the default. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages you write to the list. I don't recommend this. SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages rather than each as it is posted. With this option you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep a nice, tidy in-box. SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Subscribes you to the list. UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address Removes you from the list. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 FTP Basics FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually termed PUT. Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.27. You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked for a password enter your internet e-mail address. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 WWW Basics The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. The ClassicCmp site is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html. ============================================================================= From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 1 23:24:22 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: FAQ Bonanza Message-ID: ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.2 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 1.5, 1.7, 2.9, 2.10 Updated Sections: 1.1, 2.3, 2.4, 3.1 Removed: 5.4, 6.1-on ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? 1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? 2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? Collecting ---------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw@u.washington.edu. 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get back to you eventually. 1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there are members of this list in a number of different countries. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods if you actually need info on them, not just to show off. 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 180 and changing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines, books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step. Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier. I'm working on putting together a list of books and tools that a beginner should get his hands on. If you have suggestions, let me know. ============================================================================= From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 1 23:25:34 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: FAQ Bonanza Message-ID: ============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 3 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Technical FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.1 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 3 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regularly asked questions which are technical in nature. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 5.1 Updated Sections: 1.2, 2.4, 4.1, 5.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. General ------------------ 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 2. Media -------- 2.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 2.4 What disk sizes are there? 2.5 How do I take care of old media? 3. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 3.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 3.3 How about capacitors? 3.4 Anything else? 3.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? 4. Software ----------- 4.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 4.2 What's the best way to back up my software? 5. Specific Problems/Solutions ------------------------------ 5.1 Is it possible to bypass an RF modulator to achieve composite output? ============================================================================= 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, cold (broken) solder joints, bent pins, etc. It may be a good idea to remove and re-seat all socketed components and connectors. If anything burned or overheated it will probably pay to replace it before powering up the unit. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. If you have really cool tools (like a logic analyzer) it has been suggested that you use them to record critical information from those oh-so-hard-to-find custom chips. Specific information on how to do this is beyond the scope of a FAQ, but you probably know what you need to if you own the appropriate tools. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Running the power supply without a load could result in damage to it. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Recommended commercial products: Purple Stuff from Kragen [for discoloration] Brasso [ink/marker] (can discolor plastic) Antistatic Foam Cleaner from Electrolube [for discoloration/markings] Citra-Solv [for discoloration] (can dissolve plastic if undiluted) Cameo Copper Cleaner [ink/marker] Naptha [for stickers/goop/spooge] (very flammable) 3M GP Adhesive Remover [for stickers/goop/spooge] CRC 226 / CRC 556 [for stickers/goop/spooge] Fulcron [for discoloration] Blue Shower / BS II [for stickers/goop/spooge] Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Recommended commercial products: Electrolube contact cleaning sprays. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. If there is reason not to use a dishwasher (some key labels can come off) it is usually possible to remove each keycap and clean conventionally. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. 3.5 inch disks never came hard-sectored and, in fact, it would not be possible. 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density DD, HD (sometimes work, not advisable!) High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. In the case of quad density no substitution should be considered reliable. DD and HD disks both can be forced to work. One may work better than the other given the peculiarities of various drives. 2.4 What disk sizes are there? Disk Types? Physically? Standard Disks Unique/Proprietary Disks --------------------------------------------------------- 8" (Floppy) 5" (MiniFloppy) 5.25" (MiniFloppy) 3.25" (MicroFloppy) 3.5" (MicroFloppy) 3" (MicroFloppy) 2.5" 2" In addition to odd sizes - there is at least one type of disk which was physically different. "Twiggy" disks for the Apple Lisa 1 were regular 5.25" disks with the exception that they had two read/write windows. One was oriented "north" of the center hole, the other "south". 2.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 3.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 3.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 3.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 3.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows). From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jul 1 23:59:18 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 In-Reply-To: <2062@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970701215918.00cb44fc@agora.rdrop.com> At 11:58 PM 7/1/97 GMT, you wrote: >Talking of plotters... > >Does anybody know anything about the Tektronix 4662? I have one, and the >service manual, but no programming manual. I think I can fix the electronic >side (and the mechanics if it needs it), but I have no idea on how to talk to >the thing. It has both RS232 and GPIB ports. Does anyone have a command >reference or whatever? I have one, and (I believe) the programmers reference and no service manual. (and Tek is 1.5 miles up the road B^} )Sounds like there may be potential here, eh? Looking for anything in particular? -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 1 17:45:01 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: who's on first? References: Your message of "Tue, 01 Jul 1997 00:31:35 EDT." <3.0.32.19970701003133.00989b10@mail.northernway.net> <867790006.1113369.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B9886D.4F76@ndirect.co.uk> Nick Challoner wrote: > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) Colossus I ? enrico From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 2 00:10:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2055FFF87@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970701221001.00f70094@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:08 PM 7/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. > >The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a >MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like >it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular >Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. > >How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? Sounds like the software is not seralized properly and it wants to see the diskette to validate the software. (the Lisa serialized the software to the machine on initial load) >I tried putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the >"Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. > >Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? Yep... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 2 00:17:09 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Recycling Computers References: <199707020423.AAA22934@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33B9E455.6F2B@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > My hosent opinion: > > Gah! That is more of a recycler than reselling complete system > cheaply to users who would want them. what left of it can be done > recycled which is my preference. > Ah, but you are not reading between the lines. If you looked at the pictures and read the story, you would see a tremdous source of computer parts and possibly even complete units instead of having to rely only on your sources! From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Wed Jul 2 00:35:53 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Auction: Odds and Ends, Power Supplies, etc. Message-ID: <33B9E8B9.6B97@oboe.calpoly.edu> I am still sorting through my stuff and have a few odd items up on the eBay auction. These type of things go pretty cheap (a buck for 3 power supplies and 4 RF adapters? Cheaper than the Goodwill!) but are sometimes hard to find (especially when you need one...power supplies?). Anyway, all you have to do is go to the link listed and check the price. Remember to figure shipping into what you want to pay. I'm in CA. Lot of Power supplies & RF Adapters (TI99/4A) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:38:45 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=fpl6975 Indus GT Black Drive for Commodore 64 (photo) Current bid: $14.50 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:50:38 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=mtr1454 Lot of 3 Joysticks (photo) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:57:24 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hpq2180 Atari 800XL and Power Supply (No Workee?) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/05/97, 13:10:40 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ntp8872 Thanks for reading, Greg From wbrco at valuenet.net Wed Jul 2 00:36:55 1997 From: wbrco at valuenet.net (Allen Underdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Flex for 6809/6800 References: <33ba2c37.917971@news.zippo.com> Message-ID: <33B9E8F7.7C5A@valuenet.net> Benedict Chong wrote: > > Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? > > There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to > let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. > > Ben Don't worry, I have several copys... -- | Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | | Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | | homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | | http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 2 01:36:02 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 References: <2062@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33B9F6D2.1AF7@Brighton-UK.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > The whole definition argument seems pretty pointless, Enrico. That's what > > I was trying to say in the first place. If you want to set your own > > definitions of what constitutes a 'home computer,' that's fine. > But this is NOT a home computers list. It's an ALL computers list. That is made > 100% clear in the FAQ. Define what you like, talk about what you like (provided > it computes and is at least 10 years old), and the rest of us will do the same > > > us will happily(?) continue to use whatever strikes our fancy for computing > > hardware in the home (a much better definition, I think). > > > > As has been pointed out, this group is for discussion of 'classic' > > computers. Bill Whitson's definition of 'classic,' in this case, refers to > > ANY machine that is ten years or more old. Period. EXACTLY. I think that before flaming and attacking someone for what he never said I think it would be wiser to read slowly and thoughtfully what it arrives on your screen: - I did not start this war of words on home computers (someone else did) - I am not against the talking or the collectin of "big" computers - I don't think that this mailing list is just about home-computers (whatever they might be) - I wish you stop being so superficial and possessive and get on with collecting and discussing about collecting and using old historical computers - I wish you stop beign so self-centered and concentrate in finding good sides in people and situations I think this list is a wonderful occasion for us all to learn and share our experience on something whcih changed the way we all act and think Thank you enrico From starling at umr.edu Wed Jul 2 01:04:39 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Help with Apple Lisa 2 In-Reply-To: <199707020404.AAA21337@mail.cgocable.net> from "jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca" at Jul 2, 97 00:05:00 am Message-ID: <199707020604.BAA07014@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Wow, LISA! It's a relic nonelessness but to amire at. :) This is > kinda of a abortive experiment with "Mac" stuff then Mac became > closed up and popular next year. Also very rare too! Thank yourself > for not getting Lisa 1 type...it used 5.25" duo disk. Gah! Dual > head cutouts not one like those 360/1.22 disks. Yes, the 5.25" ``Twiggy disk'' models are much more of a pain in the ass to get running, but I'd gladly trade my 2/5 for a Lisa 1 any day. They're ultimo rare! If nothing else, I could figure out how to make my own twiggies out of 1.2M 5.25"s probably... (I think twiggies stored around a meg of data, I think) > Okie, Lisa 2/10 and Lisa XL is no different in hardware but used > different operating system. *BEEP* Wrong. Sorry... :) The Mac XL (And other Macintoshes) has a different resolution on the monitor than a True Lisa. When one runs MacWorks on a True Lisa, the screen looks kind of fat. When one runs MacWorks XL on a Mac XL, it looks like a Macintosh. Plus, most (if not all) Mac XLs have a 800k floppy instead of the Lisa-Stock 400k. The fact that the poor thing boots to a Sun Remarketing logo, leads me to believe that it may have indeed been bastardized by those butchers at Sun Rem. > The Lisa 2/10 is very desireable to upgrade to scsi capable, expand > the screen image to bigger screen and 800k upgrade with ROM added > and with new Mac system software and MacWorks Plus. There is > hardware hack to add more addressing lines to break the 2mb limit to > 4mb. Yes, but then you wouldn't have a Lisa.... Part of the fun of owning a Lisa is USING it as one. I can't remember the exact symptoms Kai's Lisa was having, but it might be possible that his floppy drive is kaput. The "Lisa Lite" floppy controller card is notoriously flakey. My 2/5 blew her 3rd one recently and I'm in the market for one... (hint, hint... :) starling From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 01:52:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 99 In-Reply-To: <33B9F6D2.1AF7@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > - I wish you stop being so superficial and possessive and get on with > collecting and discussing about collecting and using old historical > computers > - I wish you stop beign so self-centered and concentrate in finding good > sides in people and situations I would hope that, for the good of the dicussion, the addressee of this message will ignore these inflammatory remarks or at least address them in private e-mail. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 01:50:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: yo Message-ID: I had a business meal tonight and after some discussion I found out that one of our guests is sort of into collecting old computers (basically he never got rid of any of the systems he's bought over time). One of the systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and for me to comprehend it. I told him of my plans for the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival (which, by the way, is still on...I'm still in the planning phases) and he mentioned that he had close contacts with a show called The Computer Guys on the Discovery Channel and would arrange for me to meet with them to discuss possible coverage of the show. Very nice! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 02:34:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 2 08:14:50 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707021314.AA12389@world.std.com> > From: Tony Duell > The origianl statement stands. I can't think of a single computer syste > by me or not) that can't be used for useful work in 1997. The fact that > old has nothing to do with it. Tony, Everyone, I'd be loath to point out that one of the more common houseflys in computer terms is the PDP-8. While not large or fast they are common still running CNC machines that were built over 20 years ago. I come from a time when home computerists lusted for one of these. Granted the 80xx was still TBD! ;-) Allison From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 2 09:21:06 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? References: Message-ID: <33BA63D2.97D@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic > systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the > very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? Well...from my Sony book they list in 1982 a "new desktop microcomputer system, "SCM-70" and its peripherals for video as well as business applications". Could this be it? enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 2 09:33:26 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: yo References: Message-ID: <33BA66B6.3935@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: One of the > systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a > video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this > system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody > knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and > for me to comprehend it. Video brain was made by a firm called UMTECH, used a microprocessor called F8 and had 1 to 4K of RAM memory. It was possible to store the data on cassette and, you are right there, it had many plug-in cartridges with games on them. It was sold mainly through departments stores and specialty electronic stores (at least that is what "A Collector's guide to personal computers" book has to say about it) enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 2 09:40:07 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: RT-11 and OS/8 floppy interleave algorithms? Message-ID: <33BA6847.201E@xlisper.mv.com> Does anyone know the RX01 floppy sector interleave algorithms for RT-11 and OS/8? Thanks in advance, David Betz -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 2 11:07:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: RT-11 and OS/8 floppy interleave algorithms? In-Reply-To: <33BA6847.201E@xlisper.mv.com> from "David Betz" at Jul 2, 97 10:40:07 am Message-ID: <9707021507.AA28189@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2083 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/4ea4d8df/attachment-0001.ksh From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Wed Jul 2 11:35:46 1997 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Ken Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970702123546.00988a10@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> At 02:21 PM 7/2/97 +0000, you wrote: >Sam Ismail wrote: >> >> I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic >> systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the >> very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? > >Well...from my Sony book they list in 1982 a "new desktop microcomputer >system, "SCM-70" and its peripherals for video as well as business >applications". > >Could this be it? > >enrico >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: > I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit with it that contains an 8086 processor. This "brick" plugs into the back of the SMC-70 using a centronics-type 50 pin cable. According ot the documentation, when this "supercharger" is plugged in, the Z-80 processor in the main unit handles all of the I/O functions and the 8086 becomes the default CPU. The system uses either CP/M (in Z-80 mode) or CM/M-86 (in 8086 mode). I have manuals and documentation for the machine, the Sony applications, and the CP/M and CP/M-86 operating systems, but the original system and applications diskettes were not passed along to the person I got the machine from by its original owner. Anybody have any idea where I could get at least the OS for this thing? It looks like a neat little machine. Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Road Rochester, NY 14623 Phone:(716)-275-8247 Fax: (716)-275-5960 From s-ware at nwu.edu Wed Jul 2 12:06:33 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970702123546.00988a10@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ken Marshall wrote: > I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is > moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white > and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 > connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit I have an SMC-70 as well; unfortunately, I have neither an OS nor the floppy drives for mine. The few pieces of information that I have found about this machine are that it was (supposedly) the first mass-produced computer to use 3.5 inch floppy disks and that it was used as a part of a video editing controller that Sony produced in the early '80s. The floppy disk claim does make some sense, since the 3.5 inch format was developed by Sony. A few more interesting things about this machine: - The power supply is located in the rear portion of the case, which is mounted on tracks and movable. Moving the power supply away from the main portion of the case reveals a ribbon cable with several 50-pin socket connectors. This ribbon cable terminates at the 50-pin Centronics connector on the back of the unit. Does anyone have a description of this bus? I'm assuming that there were options available that fit into this area and extend the length of the unit, somewhat like the options that can be connected to the IBM PC Convertible. - There is a switch on the side of the unit that selects the startup device, which can be either ROM or disk. I'm assuming that the boot ROM was an optional product. In any case, mine doesn't have a boot ROM. Does anyone know if the SMC-70 floppy drives are the same as (or compatible with) any of the other drives that are made by Sony, such as the 400k SSDD drives used in the Macintosh 128k/512k? If anyone is interested, I can snap a few pictures of the SMC-70 tonight, put them on the Web, and post the URL. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 20:36:42 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA23395@mx2.u.washington.edu> DIGIAL network. > My favorites were MILRAT, and the other two cluster members MILROT and > MILDEW. They were apt names for vaxen located where straight down through > the floor meant you were in the pond. Reminds me of the spinoffs of SNOBOL -- FASBOL, SPITBOL... Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 20:31:35 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Old Tandys Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA24322@mx5.u.washington.edu> Tandy has an 800 number -- (800) THE-SHACK (You musk key in the final "K"...it won't work without it). The technicians are knowledgeable about the older machines and *very* helpful. btw, I have some trash-80 software (if bitrot hasn't got to it) From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 20:54:13 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA18919@mx3.u.washington.edu> I had a 1000HX (still have, I think -- it's out on loan) with internal 5 1/4, external 3 1/2 From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 1 21:18:15 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: who's on first? Message-ID: <199707021730.KAA23493@mx2.u.washington.edu> > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) I seem to remember it was codenamed "the Bomb", as that was the British mangling of the Polish word. From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Wed Jul 2 13:24:05 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <199707021824.OAA09698@wincom.net> At 12:34 AM 7/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic >systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the >very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? > > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Hi, Sam: In 1983 Sony Video Products Catalog listed a SMC70 microcomputer, and again in 1986 Japan Video Centre (Toronto) listed a SMC70G "Genlocker" which was supposed to make a good character generator for video production. I remember going to see one, but didn't bite because they wanted about six grand for it, and that is a bit much, even in Canada. Regards Charlie Fox From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Wed Jul 2 13:39:35 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <199707021839.OAA11395@wincom.net> At 12:06 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ken Marshall wrote: > >> I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is >> moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white >> and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 >> connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit > >I have an SMC-70 as well; unfortunately, I have neither an OS nor the >floppy drives for mine. The few pieces of information that I have found >about this machine are that it was (supposedly) the first mass-produced >computer to use 3.5 inch floppy disks and that it was used as a part of a >video editing controller that Sony produced in the early '80s. The >floppy disk claim does make some sense, since the 3.5 inch format was >developed by Sony. > >A few more interesting things about this machine: > >- The power supply is located in the rear portion of the case, which is >mounted on tracks and movable. Moving the power supply away from the main >portion of the case reveals a ribbon cable with several 50-pin socket >connectors. This ribbon cable terminates at the 50-pin Centronics >connector on the back of the unit. Does anyone have a description of this >bus? I'm assuming that there were options available that fit into this >area and extend the length of the unit, somewhat like the options that can >be connected to the IBM PC Convertible. > >- There is a switch on the side of the unit that selects the startup >device, which can be either ROM or disk. I'm assuming that the boot ROM >was an optional product. In any case, mine doesn't have a boot ROM. > >Does anyone know if the SMC-70 floppy drives are the same as (or >compatible with) any of the other drives that are made by Sony, such as >the 400k SSDD drives used in the Macintosh 128k/512k? > >If anyone is interested, I can snap a few pictures of the SMC-70 tonight, >put them on the Web, and post the URL. > >-- >Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu > The Sony part numbers listed for the manuals are as follows: SML7000Z Operating instruction binder. SML7001Z Sony basic introductory manual& basic user guide. SML7002Z Basic reference manual SML7003Z System monitor manual SMC70. SML7004Z Hardware manual, technical description, SMC70. I suggest not ordering them retail from Sony as they are listing at about $ 50.00 ea.in 1986 Cheers Charlie Fox From william at ans.net Wed Jul 2 13:36:41 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers In-Reply-To: <199707021824.OAA09698@wincom.net> Message-ID: <199707021836.AA02854@interlock.ans.net> Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing would be very handy. William Donzelli william@ans.net From ccm at sentex.net Wed Jul 2 15:57:50 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Video Brain Message-ID: <199707022057.QAA08031@granite.sentex.net> >Sam Ismail wrote: > One of the >> systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a >> video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this >> system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody >> knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and >> for me to comprehend it. >Video brain was made by a firm called UMTECH, used a microprocessor >called F8 and had 1 to 4K of RAM memory. It was possible to store the >data on cassette and, you are right there, it had many plug-in >cartridges with games on them. It was sold mainly through departments >stores and specialty electronic stores (at least that is what "A >Collector's guide to personal computers" book has to say about it) > >enrico > >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: > > > This is a case of two computers and one name. The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the early 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 70 intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monitor. Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. Yours in good faith. From nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 2 17:18:28 1997 From: nickc at ladyland.demon.co.uk (Nick Challoner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: who's on first? In-Reply-To: <33B9886D.4F76@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: <867878411.1011724.0@ladyland.demon.co.uk> On 1 Jul 97 at 22:45, e.tedeschi wrote: > > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) > > Colossus I ? Yes! that was it. Thanks Enrico. Now back to the main question in my post: where does this fit in to the timeline of early computers? ...Nick. -- Nick Challoner nickc@ladyland.demon.co.uk Aviation photographs at: http://www.ladyland.demon.co.uk "Bother" said Pooh, as he deleted his root directory. From jrice at texoma.net Wed Jul 2 17:08:35 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Tandy 100 Message-ID: <33BAD163.7F959B38@texoma.net> Does anyone out there have a Tandy Model 100, that is non functioning? My LCD display died and RS Parts want $225.00 for a new one. Thanks, James From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 2 17:17:06 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: 8088 ROM image (fwd) Message-ID: If anyone can help this guy out, please e-mail him (he does not subscribe AFAIK to the mailimg list.) Thanks, Les ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 18:57:12 -0700 From: michael neufeld To: more@camlaw.Rutgers.EDU Subject: 8088 ROM image Hello, Would you happen to have the BIOS for an 8088 IBM PC, XT or compatible? I would like to build a DOS compatible single board computer, however I need a BIOS and/or information on it. Any help you could give me would be appreciated! Thanks, Michael Neufeld mneufeld@awinc.com From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jul 2 17:39:43 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Early Computer History (RE: who's on first? ) Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20562F03B@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Nick Challoner > On 1 Jul 97 at 22:45, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > > > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) > > > > Colossus I ? > Yes! that was it. Thanks Enrico. > It was just called Colossus at the time (they ended up building 10 of them). They're rebuilding one at Bletchley Park. > Now back to the main question in my > post: where does this fit in to the timeline of early computers? > The following are arguable.... Colossus (1944) was probably the first electronic computer. ENIAC (1946) was probably the first general-purpose electronic computer, while Colossus was built strictly to break a German cipher. Manchester/Harvard Mark 1 (1948) was probably first electronic stored-program computer. (ENIAC, though built in '46, was made stored-program in 1948, complicating matters somewhat) EDSAC (1949) is sometimes called the first full-scale operational stored-program computer. UNIVAC 1 (1952) was probably the first commercial computer. I haven't been able to find any citations of the first all-solid-state computer. Kai From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 2 17:58:12 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Exidy Sorcerer Info Message-ID: <2125@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Somebody (I forget who) was asking for information on the Exidy Sorcerer. I've found the manuals, and will give a little useful info below. Memory Map : 0-1FFF 8K RAM (standard) - 1F50-1F90 Monitor stack, 1F91-1FFF Monitor workspace. [Or 0-3FFF 16K RAM, 0-7FFF 32K RAM, with the monitor stuff at the top of that] C000-DFFF 8K ROM cartridge [Or D000-DFFF 4K ROM cartridge, A000-DFFF 16K ROM cartridge] E000-EFFF Monitor ROM F000-F07F Video Scratchpad F080-F7FF Video (Screen) RAM F800-FBFF Ascii PROMs FC00-FDFF Standard graphics FE00-FFFF User Graphics Monitor Commands : DU DUmp memory from to EN ENter hex data to memory starting at . Type / to get out of this command TE TEst RAM from to . TE C TEst RAM continously. MO MOve block - to address MO S MOve bytes from to SA SAve block - onto cassette with file FI List FIles on cassette LO
LOad file from cassette at address
. The last 2 arguments are optional LOG
LOad and Go file as above GO GO at address (run program) PP Run Program Pack (ROM cartridge). If no paramenter given, do a warm start, otherwise cold SE = SEt monitor parameters : S=XX display delay to XX T=X Tape rate (0=1200 baud, 1 = 300 baud) F=XX set file type. D8 == non-auto-execute. Bx = Basic programs X=XXXX set execution address in tape file header O=V set output to video =P Parallel output =L Centronics Printer =S Tape output =XXXX send to address I=K set input to keyboard =P Parallel input =S Tape input =XXXX read from address CR CReate Batch file on tape unit 1 LI LIst Batch file BA run BAtch file OV End (OVer) of batch file. Returns control to the keyboard Memory : There are 2 rows of DRAM chips on the main PCB. Supported configurations are ; 2 rows of 4K chips (8K total) Front row (only) 16K chips (16K) 2 rows of 16K chips (32K) There are 2 jumpers at the front edge of the board (column 11). The front jumper is fitted if there are 2 rows of RAMs in the system. The rear one is fitted for 16K rams, removed for 4K rams. Pinouts: Serial interface (RH 25 pin connector) 1 : Shield 1 2 RS232 out 3 RS232 in 4 Ground 5 Aux level output to cassette 1 6,7,8 Ground 9 +12V 10 N/C 11 RS232 in 12 Motor control #1 + 12 Motor control #2 + 14 Shield 2 15 Microphone level output to cassette 1 16 microphone #2 17 Ground 18 Aux 2 19 Ground 20 Earphone input from cassette #1 21 Ear 2 22 N/C 23 RS223 out 24 Motor Control #1 - 25 Motor Control #2 - Parallel interface (LH 25 pin connector) 1 Ground 2 Output data Accepted 3 Output data Available 4 Output D7 5 Output D6 6 Output D5 7 Output D4 8 Ground 9 Input Data Available 10 Input D0 11 Input D2 12 Input D4 13 Input D6 14 N/C 15 +5V 16 Output D0 17 Output D1 18 Output D2 19 Output D3 20 +5V 21 Input data accepted 22 Input D1 23 Input D3 24 Input D5 25 Input D7 System bus (50 pin edge connector) 1 Reset out 2 Int* 3 wait* 4 Data bus enable (into sorcerer) 5 Busrq* 6 NMI* 7 Buskack* 8 Data Bus Direction (into sorcerer) 9 ROM Enable* 10 Phi1 (clock?) 11 ROM PRE 12 Reset Ack 13 Phi2 (clock out) 14 Up8K 15 Mreq* 16 M1* 17 Rd* 18 iorq* 19 rfsh* 20 wr* 21 A8 22 halt* 23 A10 24 A9 25 A15 26 A11 27 A13 28 A14 29 A0 30 A12 31 A2 32 A1 33 A4 34 A3 35 A6 36 A5 37 D0 38 A7 39 D2 40 D1 41 D4 42 D3 43 D6 44 D5 45 Reset input 46 D7 47 N/C 48 I/O 49 Ground 50 Ground ROMpack slot 1 A7 2 A6 3 A5 4 A4 5 A3 6 A2 7 A1 8 A0 9 A9 10 A8 11 D0 12 D1 13 D2 14 D3 15 D4 16 D5 17 D6 18 D7 19 A11 20 A10 21 RomDIS 22 A14 23 ROMPRE 24 A12 25 A13 26 +12V 27 -5V 28 N/C 29 +5V 30 Gnd Centronics printer cable Sorcerer Printer Signal 1 19-30 Ground 2 10 Ack 4 1 Stb 5 8 D6 6 7 D5 7 6 D4 8 19-30 Ground 16 2 D0 17 3 D1 18 4 D2 19 5 D3 25 11 Busy 9 D7 (Unused - maybe tie to ground - ARD) Serial cable : This was a 'hydra' cable with a DB25 to fit the sorcerer, 8 jack/phone plugs for the cassette recorders and a DB25 serial connector. I'll try to give the wirelist Sorcerer Device RS232 port 2 DB25/2 (TxD) 7 DB25/7 (Ground) 3 DB25/3 (RxD) 8 DB25/8 (Ground) Tape 1 : (Mic, Aux, Ear 3.5mm (mini) phone plugs, Remote 2.5mm (submini) phone plug) 15 Mic plug tip 1 Mic plug sleeve 5 Aux plug tip 4 Aux plug sleeve 20 Ear plug tip 19 Ear plug sleeve 24 Remote plug tip 12 Remote plug sleeve The remote connections are swapped for some recorders Tape 2 (Notes as above) 16 Mic plug tip 14 Mic plug sleeve 18 Aux plug tip 17 Aux plug sleeve 21 Ear plug tip 6 Ear plug sleeve 25 Remote plug tip 13 Remote plug sleeve I seem to remeber that something was asked about the PSU. According to my manual, the PSU was mostly on the main board, and used 3 off 3-terminal regulators for the +5V, +12V and -5V lines. If these are present, then the external (to the PCB) part of the PSU is simply a mains transformer giving 16V C/T and (probably) 16V). But if you don't have these regulators, let me know, and I'll try to figure out what is going on. -tony From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 2 18:47:44 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:09 2005 Subject: Today's Wall Street Journal Article Message-ID: All: For your enjoyment... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking Why We Can't Part With Those Vintage PCs By G. PASCAL ZACHARY Staff Reporter of TIIE WALL STREET JOURNAI. When it comes to her husband's habit of clut-tering their Redmond, Wash., home with broken and outmoded computer gear, Pam Vavra knows where to draw the line. The kitchen. Last month, Brad, her husband, stuffed a Mason jar with dozens of old memory chips and put it on a shelf next to similar jars that held fruit. Brad thought "it looked cool," he says, but she disagreed. "The kitchen is mine," she told him. "Your chips don't go with the decor." It would be an exaggeration to say that in kitchens all over America, people are filling their shelves with old computer gear. But as computers become nearly as common as toasters, the space devoted to computer junk expands, too. To be sure, some people have always had a hard time throwing things away. Didn't everyone's grandmother save string? Like the savers of old, today's digital packrats can't help themselves. "The reason you can't throw it away like an old shoe box is pre-cisely because you've established a prior relationship with it," says Brigitte Jordan, an anthropologist at Xerox Corp. who studies the relationship between people and things. As computers become more sophisticated, Ms. Jordan says, human interactions with them become more in-tense, intimate and memorable, making it harder for owners to part with their gear. For instance, Jim Kelnhofer, a programmer at Microsoft Corp., keeps his first computer in plain view in his bedroom. "I turn it on once or twice a year," he says. Hanging onto old computer stuff isn't just sentimen-tal, though. Some people paid so much for their outmoded machines that they can't bear to part with them for a song. And with computers changing so rapidly-obsoles-cence typically occurs in three years-many owners com-bat the disorientation of rapid change by keeping their old stuff nearby. "My theory is that these folks are so giddy with the pace of change that they keep this junk around as a trail of intellectual breadcrumbs, leading them back to their computing origins," says Paul Saffo, director of the Institute for the Future in Menlo Park, Calif. That's certainly true of Mr. Vavra, a software programmer who keeps the first computer he ever owned (a Franklin Ace) in his garage. A year ago, he donated to Microsoft's museum his Apple Lisa, a precursor to the Macintosh, but he can't part with an original Apple II, a computer on which he wrote some of his first programs in the 1970s. It is even more common for people to surround themselves with old gear at work. Alan Cooper, a computer consultant in Palo Alto, Calif., keeps a line of old chips on his desktop computer monitor and a few hundred computer punchcards -- not used since the 1970s -- in his desk drawer. "That's a lifetime supply now," says Mr. Cooper, who uses them as bookmarks. Mr. Cooper occasionally tosses out gear, but not easily. He is still sorry about his decision five years ago to give away an original Macintosh to a public school. Whenever he considers tossing out, say, the Hewlett-Packard calculator he bought in college 25 years ago, he thinks about how much he misses the Mac. "I don't want to make that mistake again," he says. While vintage computers provide psychological ballast against the shock of the new, there are sound economic reasons for retaining obsolete machines: Many are im-possible to sell or give away. In California alone, an esti-mated two million PCs are abandoned each year. Many sit in closets or warehouses or under desks. Others are sold at yard sales, left on the street, or cannibalized by recyclers for valuable metals. Most charities, for instance, have firm standards on which computers they will accept as donations. “We don’t want your junk,” says Helga Luce, a spokeswoman for Goodwill Industries. Even perfectly good computers often can't be given away. The Detwiler Foundation, which donates to schools computers rescued from oblivion, doesn't take machines that are powered by anything less than Intel's nine-year-old 386 chip. "We're not doing a school a favor by giving them a 286," says Diane Detwiler, the foundation's executive director, referring to Intel's 15-year-old microprocessor. Some charities have even tougher standards. Gifts in Kind, an Alexandria, Va., nonprofit that distributes donated computers, will accept only those machines whose parts, manuals and maintenance are readily available. The charity won't accept, for instance, the Macintosh Classic, a venerable computer that sold in the millions. Thwarted in their efforts to give away their most ancient machines, some computer owners try to make the best of a bad situation. Cliff Stoll, a computer-security expert in Oakland, Calif., came up with a novel answer to the question, "What do you do with a used computer?" Mr. Stoll, who is a commentator on the cable channel MSNBC and an author, has turned a one-piece Macintosh Plus into an aquarium, hollowing out the electronics and filling the case with water and fish. As if the aquarium weren't enough, Mr. Stoll turned an old IBM PC into a litter box for his cat. While the cat became enamored of the box, "I realized that really isn't a good second life for a computer," he says. For some fanatics, giving their computers decent storage space is more fitting. "My reasoning is really very simple," says Marc Weiser, a computer scientist at Xerox's Palo Alto, Calif., research lab. "Old computers are worthless to everybody else, so even if they have a dime of value to you its a dime you wouldn't have otherwise." Mr. Weiser keeps three old computers in his garage, including one he built in 1975. "Maybe I'll show it to my kids someday. You know, like an heirloom." Other digital packrats harbor similar delusions. Kimball Brown, a market researcher in San Jose, Calif., thinks his motley collection of modems, compact-disk drives, memory chips and entire computers could be worth something someday. Even if he's wrong, he insists, he can't lose. "I have a dream that someday I'll open a computer museum," he says. But there already are computer museums, and they are pretty choosy, too. Curators want collectible computers to be in pristine condition and perhaps bear some unique mark, such as a designer's signature. "What turns out to be valuable, you can't really know," says Gwen Bell, co-founder of the Computer Museum in Boston. But "if it's not shiny and polished and isn't part of a big story, it probably isn't worth keeping." From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 2 19:02:05 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Video Brain Message-ID: <199707030002.AA18461@world.std.com> > From: ccm@sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) > This is a case of two computers and one name. > > The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the earl > 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 7 > intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monit > > Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. Sure you not confusing the Superbrain, a CP/M machine with the Video Brain a F8 based game? Allison From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 19:09:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <199707021314.AA12389@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > I'd be loath to point out that one of the more common houseflys in > computer terms is the PDP-8. While not large or fast they are common > still running CNC machines that were built over 20 years ago. I come > from a time when home computerists lusted for one of these. Granted > the 80xx was still TBD! ;-) Home computerists STILL lust for these! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jul 2 19:45:59 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970703104559.00987d20@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 12:34 AM 7/2/97 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: > >I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic >systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the >very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? If it's the one I remember playing with so many years ago imagine this. Take one "Classic" Mac case. Make another slot for a second floppy drive. Insert 64K of memory and an 8085 (could be a Z80). Sell lots (or, as I suspect from only ever having seen one) sell not many at all, but confuse lots of poor Mac users! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 19:47:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Old Tandys In-Reply-To: <199707021730.KAA24322@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Tandy has an 800 number -- (800) THE-SHACK (You musk key in the final > "K"...it won't work without it). Just for the record, not true. THE-SHACK translates into 843-7422. Unless they have strange switching equipment in your local CO that forces you to honor every letter of a vanity number, you don't have to dial the 'K'. You probably misdialed or something one day. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 2 19:53:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970702123546.00988a10@popserver.lle.rochester.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ken Marshall wrote: > I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is > moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white > and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 > connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit with Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic external PC-compat drive. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jul 2 20:25:55 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: northstar advantage/cordata Message-ID: <970702212554_1892932989@emout09.mail.aol.com> i posted a note locally about ti99 goodies and someone emailed me back with an offer for a northstar advantage and a cordata. i need info on what these are and if they're worth getting. david From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 2 21:30:28 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jul 2, 97 05:53:12 pm Message-ID: <9707030130.AA00122@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 560 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/30cc6652/attachment-0001.ksh From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 20:35:19 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and > its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since > I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this > one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives > used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic > external PC-compat drive. IBM's own external drives used a DB37 connector. If it belongs to a PC, I'm guessing it is for use with one specific vendor's machine. It is -possible- that it could belong to an Amiga. AFAIR, the Amiga's external floppy port is DB25 (mine's not in front of me at the moment), but the A1010 external 3.5" floppy I have gets power from the computer. I don't count myself an expert on external floppy drives, though. ok -r From ccm at sentex.net Wed Jul 2 20:47:00 1997 From: ccm at sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Video Brain Message-ID: <199707030147.VAA12205@granite.sentex.net> Yep, you're absolutely correct. I messed up, again. Sorry. Thanks for the gentle correction. Kevin >> From: ccm@sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) >> This is a case of two computers and one name. >> >> The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the earl >> 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 7 >> intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monit >> >> Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. > >Sure you not confusing the Superbrain, a CP/M machine with the Video >Brain a F8 based game? > >Allison > > > From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 22:22:14 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Archive Message-ID: Hi all. OK - here's the scoop so far on the Archival of classic computer stuff. Please give your input so that we can get the standards settled. The UW has graciously given me permission to attach a personal server to the network full time for ClassicCmp, so the underwork for the project is pretty well taken care of. I have a system that I'm working on setting up for the job - it will be a 486/66 with 32 MB of RAM and 3 GB of disk space. I am currently planning to set it up with linux. As you all know I am terribly slow about getting things done so it will probably be a couple weeks before it goes online. In the meantime we will continue to use the current FTP site which has plenty of space available. The particulars for how things will be stored are listed below for your review. Remember that the primary purpose of the archive is to store these items so that _someone_ can access them and make them available. It's probably not possible to always find a format that everyone can use, but if the data is here you can be pretty sure that you will be able to get it one way or another. System Software System software will be stored in a variety of formats. The preferred format will be disk images for those machines for which the means to create such an image has been developed. Examples are the Apple II/III (.dsk, .do, .po files) and C64 (.dsk files). The alternate format will be disk images created with a Central Point Option Board [1] which will read almost any 5.25" or 3.5" diskette. Those with such a board will be able to simply download and use the images. Those without will need to arrange to get a copy through regular mail. It's not a perfect solution but I can't come up with anything better. This will not cover 8" disks and I don't know how to deal with them as yet. General Software Non-booting software will be stored in the preferred compressed archival format for each machine (GZip where available). Firmware (ROMS, PROMS, PALS(?), etc...) I still don't know what a standard format for this should be. Anything which can be dumped to a file I'm willing to go with. My (limited) gizmo calls the format that it dumps to my PC "RAW". I assume that this is just the contents bit-for-bit. If anyone can read/write in raw format I'd recommend going with that. Documentation/Books/Magazines Text: Text should be presented in plain text, RTF, or PostScript. I will convernt submis- sions to conform to all three formats. Line Drawings: Should be formatted in either TIFF or PostScript format. Images: Should be formatted as either JPEG or PNG (Portable Network Graphic). I will convert PNG to JPEG on submission. Tag Files Each item will require a tag file to cover it's identification. This file is currently DS-form.txt located in the docs directory on the FTP site. It is probably not yet specific enough on the technical details - I will need recommendations on what to add. It does cover all the legal issues I wanted to address. Retrieving Files These files will be made available by FTP. Most will be easily downloadable by anyone. Some (Firmware, System Software) will be more difficult and will require physical assistance. I will generally be willing to create and mail disks for those who need them and can provide the media. I am poorly equipped to take care of firmware. Those without the neccesary gizmos will need to rely on the kindness of the group. [1] The Central Point Option Board is a device for an ISA bus PC that will read almost any standard floppy. They are still fairly commonly available for $20 or so. Bill Whitson From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 2 22:57:09 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: northstar advantage/cordata In-Reply-To: <970702212554_1892932989@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970702205709.006f3e14@agora.rdrop.com> At 09:25 PM 7/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >i posted a note locally about ti99 goodies and someone emailed me back with >an offer for a northstar advantage and a cordata. i need info on what these >are and if they're worth getting. Well... Don't know about the "cordata", but a NorthStar Advantage is a Z-80 based CP/M / NS-Dos system with built-in keyboard and display, and two floppies or a floppy and hard disk. I've got one in the collection, but have not got a picture onto my web page as yet. A fairly neat unit... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 2 23:58:05 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Archive In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jul 2, 97 08:22:14 pm Message-ID: <9707030358.AA23297@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 603 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/ff2b94b9/attachment-0001.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 2 22:58:01 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (Jim Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <9707030130.AA00122@alph02.triumf.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970702205801.006f5d5c@agora.rdrop.com> At 06:30 PM 7/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >> Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and >> its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since >> I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this >> one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives >> used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic >> external PC-compat drive. > >I thought the later Apple ][ external drives used a 19-pin D. The Apple 'Duo-Disk' units used the 'D' connector... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 3 00:04:14 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970702205801.006f5d5c@agora.rdrop.com> from "Jim Willing" at Jul 2, 97 08:58:01 pm Message-ID: <9707030404.AA30175@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/3ca3faff/attachment-0001.ksh From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 2 23:22:12 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Archive In-Reply-To: <9707030358.AA23297@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > The Central Point option board can't do 8" disks? I suppose > it's really not necessary - my Taiwanese generic floppy controller > in my PC does both single and double density 8" floppies just > fine. I bet if you tried a dozen different generic AT floppy controllers > that half of them would do single density just fine. > > Tim. > Well, let me rephrase - I assume the option board can't do 8". The option board replaces the disk controller and then accesses the disk directly which is why it can read MFM, GCR, whatever. I'm guessing that it relies on physical parameters to do this as I can't think of any other way to go about it. As far as 8" disks go right now - I can read/write to them from my pc using... uh... a software package the name of which I can't remember at the moment. The one they tell you to get in comp.os.cpm if you ask how to read cp/m floppies in your pc ;) Bill From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 00:31:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 Message-ID: I have to get this off my chest. Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. Aye. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 00:37:13 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Panasonic Handhelds Message-ID: I am posting this again to hopefully get more response. Right now we are collectively committed for 46 units of the Panasonic Hand Held Computers. I am hoping to at least double this figure. The more we want, the merrier for all. I'll include a little more information about these units. To those of you who have already submitted requests or have read this message, you can skip the rest of the message after my signature as you've seen it before. These units are a Panasonic HandHeld Computer circa 1984. They have a FORTH-like language in ROM called "SNAP". They have a built-in thermal printer. They have 8K of RAM running off a 6502 CPU. The custom-designed memory expansion tray which each comes with allows up to 10 additional 8K EPROMS along with the 3 that the HHC itself allows for. It has a 26 character by 1 line display, and its dimensions are 9" by 3.5". It has a full "qwerty" keyboard. Now please read the rest of the message for instructions on how to reserve 1, 2, 3 or more of these babies for yourself at a maximum price of $10 each. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion Subject: RE: Panasonic Handhelds PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar@crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about 10 days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. I'll get back to everyone in 10 days or so. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 3 01:07:12 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: northstar advantage/cordata References: <970702212554_1892932989@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33BB418D.58F0@rain.org> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > i posted a note locally about ti99 goodies and someone emailed me back with > an offer for a northstar advantage and a cordata. i need info on what these > are and if they're worth getting. Cordata took over Corona and I *think* they were located somewhere around Westlake Village, California. Both the Corona and Cordata machines that I have are all MS-DOS machines and I don't recall their ever running CP/M. When Cordata ceased operations, the service and support was taken over by a company in Los Angeles (don't recall the name, but I could probably find it if it was needed.) As with everything, the value is what someone is willing to pay. If the machine has all the documentation, I *might* go as high as $20 but that would only be because of the docs. BTW, I seem to recall that the monitor was specific to the machine so make sure the monitor comes with the machine. Without docs, I *might* be willing to take it off someones hands but only if it were in excellent condition and working. The Corona PC400 was my first MS-DOS machine. The Northstar Advantage was an integrated machine that has the terminal, processor, etc. all in one case; kind of a nice machine. It ran CP/M and came out after the Horizon. I mainly used the Horizon so don't know the details of the Advantage. The two Advantages I have were given to me and included all the documentation. With the usual "it is worth what someone will pay", the prices I have seen on similar equipment at swap meets, etc. run around $10 or so. It is worth a bit more with docs. As far as "worth getting", that depends on what type of collection you want and how much space you are willing to devote to the collection. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 01:00:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <9707030130.AA00122@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and > > its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since > > I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this > > one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives > > used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic > > external PC-compat drive. > > I thought the later Apple ][ external drives used a 19-pin D. You're most likely right. I never memorized that triviata. > External PC-compatible drives tend to have 37-pin D connectors. Hmmm...this drive is manufactured by California Access. Model CA 360-T. Serial number 360 T-000286. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 01:13:59 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970702205801.006f5d5c@agora.rdrop.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Jim Willing wrote: > >I thought the later Apple ][ external drives used a 19-pin D. > > The Apple 'Duo-Disk' units used the 'D' connector... And the Unidisk (basically a 'single' duo-disk) and the later but functionally and physically the same Apple 5.25 Drives. The old Disk ][s used the 14 (or whatever!) conductor ribbon cable. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marcw at lightside.com Thu Jul 3 00:15:20 1997 From: marcw at lightside.com (marcw@lightside.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX Message-ID: <199707030716.AAA18073@covina.lightside.com> > I had a 1000HX (still have, I think -- it's out on loan) with internal 5 > 1/4, external 3 1/2 > If it has a 5 1/4" internal (on the right side?) then it is a 1000EX and not HX. They're similar but I forgot what the main difference was other than the drives. I don't think the EX has a setup program like the HX's SETUPHX is one. Wonder if it's possible to change settings on the EX like the HX (EEPROM). Marc From cerebral at michianatoday.com Thu Jul 3 02:31:21 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 Message-ID: <07312166801687@michianatoday.com> At 10:31 PM 7/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I have to get this off my chest. > >Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I >had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s >I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious >each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try >the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet >ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 >worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed >were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad >luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, >the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have >been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain >that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have >worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! > >There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them >on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first >C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all >of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's >got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there >must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how >unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. > >Aye. > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass As you sig says, you are a JAckass, but calling you a jackass is not fair to the jackass. seeing that this is flamebait, I have to say that I NEVER had a Commodore 64 that did not work. Now if you want to talk about shitty commodore stuff, that would have to be the C=128 keyboard. the electronics in it are fine, but the keyboard is crap. all in all however, Commodores still rule over Apples anyday, sure the wonderful apple disk was faster, but a fast disk alone dont make a machine. That is just like having a 454 supercharged big block in your garage, with nothing to put it in..... From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 2 22:34:55 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707030734.DAA05075@mail.cgocable.net> Sam, Ouch! Tugging at my eyes to clear those good naturally rantings...:) I used to fix quite few of them because I took few apart and was told by a C64 vet who repairs and resells them in early days. In C64 machines, buffers is not on Commodore's minds (saving $, yes right!) so they blow up pretty easily by idiots resulting in lots and lots of 6522 PIA ic swaps but that is not it for "dead" ones. About the black boxes PSU, most of them are potted, ack! Better snip off the power cable C64 side and wire up a new transformers that is same ratings as the orignal or bit better than that and use one regulator there, other two AC lines is used to power inside rectifers/regulators/filter capacitors and multiple fuses! You have to also open up the halves and check the voltage outputs after the regulators and fuses, capacitors inside the c64. Better C64 power bricks is not potted and is colored beige, they're easy to fix so look for them instead. The circit board is more of barebones worth of interconnected chipsets and few TTL's, not that real problem there. Fixed other C64 by replacing all 4164's, and a happy owner. There IS a powerful tool that connects all the ports, cartidge port and it takes over the C64 for diagnostics via the monitor. Sorry, they're kinda not rarity. More like coachroaches everywhere you go. I see them all the time, truly coachroaches that won't go away! (as I type this, amid Sam's wails of frustration is heard. Just imagining myself.) About the drives, they do need cleaning and greasing to operate properly, check the clocking. I fixed one because a sick crystal blew out the IC in the little sheilding box. I think they did have their own PSU inside that drive box? that was long ago. :)) The red led is controlled by cpu inside which is bit useful. Also make sure the drive rpm is right, it does have belt driven spindle. For a moment, users still use them for some reasons...You may remember that my friend burns his EEPROMs on C64 with a burner cartidge for years and says it was well worthwhile investment and paid him every time he uses it, it's already paid for long ago. (the burner can burn anything up to 27256 types) Recently, he's digging for it because this thing grew legs and got lost in his junk in order to burn a new image into EEPROM IC. That's for fixing the 2 years old Asus board branded PVI-486SP3 that lost it's rom memory for no reason. In a nutshell, check those DC voltages first. For grabled display (aka checkerboard display) at startup often points to memory fault. Also clean those edge contacts with strong alcohol, crunch socketed chips in. Also C64 used RF sheilding with fingers that contacts the IC's for heatsinking, put some fresh heatsink paste there if needed. If some ports, keyboard, serial and I/O, funny sound, seems dead, suspect 6522 PIA's Those MOS technology runs HOT like hot sunlit car seats. (g) There was at least 3 generations of PCB boards in C64 lifetime designs, the last one was fewer chipsets and one big IC, all in tiny board. Very easy to open up that shells, needs to unsolder the RF tin pan (Just tedious but easy to do in order to get at solder side if needed. When soldering work, be easy on PCB, it is not very good to heavy-handed tech.) To summarize: * Power problems - dead or flaky operation, check both inside C64 and the power brick. * blown PIA's (two of them) - C64 seems to work but certain feature(s) is/are dead. * memories - grabled or checkerboard. > > I have to get this off my chest. > > Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I > had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s > I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious > each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try > the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet > ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 > worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed > were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad > luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, > the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have Actually, the design fault because the potting held in heat output from the regulator inside and made it worse by the transformer. If you are patient, chip at potting away until you get at the regulator, replace it with bigger heatsink and find the fuse too if needed. > been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain > that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have > worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! PCB is PCB with chips and all get ruined if left out in elements. > > There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them > on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first > C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all > of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's Looks like power loss somwhere in that one and blown fuse. > got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there > must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how > unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. Remember, we are supposed to fix those historic stuff not wasting those little poor electrons that made up this letter? To add, the worst machine to work on is old Toshibas, thousands of screws and little parts, too short wires, etc and baddie of all, pitiful few hd choices especially ones that uses regular IDE hd...Mostly in early series before '91. > > Aye. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Jason D. From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jul 3 03:55:11 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970703015840.45c768f4@mail.crl.com> At 10:45 AM 7/3/97 +1000, you wrote: >Take one "Classic" Mac case. Make another slot for a second floppy drive. >Insert 64K of memory and an 8085 (could be a Z80). Sell lots (or, as I I think I might have a picture of one around somewhere (probably on my girlfriend's Mac); if I can find it, I'll put it somewhere accessible if anyone's interested in seeing it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From bwit at pobox.com Wed Jul 2 14:31:38 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <01BC8777.7F9BB4A0@ppp-151-164-41-210.rcsntx.swbell.net> >Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead". Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 1311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970702/0b13184d/attachment-0001.bin From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Thu Jul 3 06:16:44 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <01BC8777.7F9BB4A0@ppp-151-164-41-210.rcsntx.swbell.net> Message-ID: <33BB8A1C.522A@xlisper.mv.com> Bob Withers wrote: > > >Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran > >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. > > Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead". > > Bob I remember using a debugger called DDT under TOPS-10 on the DEC PDP-10 before there was anything called CP/M. -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jul 3 07:21:53 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers Message-ID: <970703082153_1689972112@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-03 05:38:55 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing would be very handy. >> I have access to all IBM FRU numbers, which will always tell you what you have; NNLNNNN where n=number and l=letter but that four digit number means nothing AFAIK. david From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 3 11:00:17 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Strange Tandy 1000HX In-Reply-To: <199707030716.AAA18073@covina.lightside.com> Message-ID: On 03-Jul-97, marcw@lightside.com wrote: >If it has a 5 1/4" internal (on the right side?) then it is a >1000EX and not HX. >They're similar but I forgot what the main difference was other than >the drives. I don't think the EX has a setup program like the HX's >SETUPHX is one. Wonder if it's possible to change settings on the >EX like the HX (EEPROM). Other than the obvious difference in floppy size and location, the EX was strictly an XT-class machine that required the 5-1/4" boot disk to boot, as it didn't have the DOS-in-ROM of the HX. Also I could be wrong, but I don't believe it had any type of internal EEPROM setup like the HX and AT-class and above machines. Otherwise, the cases appear to be based on the same one, with just the modifications for the floppy relocation. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 3 09:14:24 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707031414.AA09100@world.std.com> > > >Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever r > > >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. > > > > Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead" > > > > Bob > > I remember using a debugger called DDT under TOPS-10 on the DEC PDP-10 > before there was anything called CP/M. I've used DDT on PDP-8s (OS8), PDP-10s and 11s before CP/m existed. However, Kildall was largely inspired by DEC OSs, hence DDT, PIP, dir, REName, TYPE to name a few. Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 3 10:56:26 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Archive In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jul 2, 97 09:22:12 pm Message-ID: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970703/42f79e86/attachment-0001.ksh From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 3 10:09:03 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Archiving Message-ID: >>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a device for an ISA bus PC that will read almost any standard floppy. They are still fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>> I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it anymore. You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you recommend that I start looking?? ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 10:33:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: <199707030734.DAA05075@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > Remember, we are supposed to fix those historic stuff not wasting > those little poor electrons that made up this letter? > To add, the worst machine to work on is old Toshibas, thousands of > screws and little parts, too short wires, etc and baddie of all, > pitiful few hd choices especially ones that uses regular IDE > hd...Mostly in early series before '91. Jason, thanks for the information. I will fix these damn things yet! Actually I wouldn't mind that any are dead because they are cheap as dirt and as plentiful as well but I have this very uncommon one...it is a C64 in a 64C case that is unlike the normal C64 case. It has the black screen syndrome and is worth fixing. The others are good for parts. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 3 11:12:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Archiving Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20564245E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> I have a couple for sale/trade, but I'm afraid my valuation would be somewhat higher than that :( I'd buy several more for $20 apiece if they could be found. If you want to spend a lot of hours sifting through vendors' junk-board boxes, you can find one without software or cable for maybe $1-5, and get the software off the 'net, but I price mine in original box with software & cable at more like $50 or trade. I'd trade one for a properly constructed/tested 34-50pin CompatiCard-to-8"-drive cable, OR a CompatiCard IV to replace my CC II. Kai > ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 8:09 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Archiving > > >>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a > device for an ISA bus PC that will read > almost any standard floppy. They are still > fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>> > > I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it > anymore. > You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you > recommend that > I start looking?? > > ------------------------------------------------- > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking > From dynasoar at mindspring.com Fri Jul 4 03:04:37 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Question about Sanyo Lunchbox References: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33BCAE95.2D60@mindspring.com> Has anyone got any ifo on a Sanyo lunchbox, model number MBC-675? It appears to be an 8088 based machine, but I can't get it to boot past a certain point. It brings up a screen that says: 1701 0 Hard Disks Installed ROM Bios v2.33 640kb memory/ CPU clock 4.77MHz Then it just hangs. A boot disk will not work either. Does it perhaps have some proprietary OS, or need a Sanyo boot disk? Anyone know anything about this dinasaur? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 3 16:29:30 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Extra stuff to go Message-ID: I have the following extra stuff taking up space if anyone would like any of it: 1) TRS-80 Model 4, desktop model with dual floppies and 64k RAM. works perfectly, and will include an original copy of TRSDOS 6. Asking $20 + shipping. 2) Sears SR2000 printer...dual interface IBM/Commodore 8bit. Seems to work fine though needs a new ribbon. $4 + shipping 3) Commodore Plus4/C-16 joysticks..a pair with the 8pin minidin connector. loose. unable to test. $5 + shipping 4) Atari SC1224 monitor...color monitor for the Atari-ST's. works great, though has some magic marker on the case. asking $10 + shipping I'm selling off these to make room for additional aquisitions, so if interested, please email me! Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jul 3 13:47:18 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, the infidel Sam Ismail wrote: > Jason, thanks for the information. I will fix these damn things yet! > Actually I wouldn't mind that any are dead because they are cheap as dirt > and as plentiful as well but I have this very uncommon one...it is a C64 > in a 64C case that is unlike the normal C64 case. It has the black > screen syndrome and is worth fixing. The others are good for parts. > > Sam Well, that uncommon 64 is just a regular 64 stuck into an aftermarket case that came out about the same time the 64C did. (So the people with the old ones could match the new peripherals, etc.) Tenex used to sell them in their "64/128 Everything catalogs" for about $25 or so and I think they were called a Kangaroo or something like that (Had a triangle or somehting on the case) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu PS I still hjave the catalogs if anyone wants pictures! ;) From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 3 13:44:21 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:10 2005 Subject: Extra stuff to go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33bbf2e8.9576798@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I would be interested in the TRS-80. Where are you at? I'm in CA. Ben On Fri, 04 Jul 1997 02:29:30 +0500, you wrote: %I have the following extra stuff taking up space if anyone would like any of %it: % %1) TRS-80 Model 4, desktop model with dual floppies and 64k RAM. works %perfectly, and will include an original copy of TRSDOS 6. Asking $20 + %shipping. % %2) Sears SR2000 printer...dual interface IBM/Commodore 8bit. Seems to work %fine though needs a new ribbon. $4 + shipping % %3) Commodore Plus4/C-16 joysticks..a pair with the 8pin minidin connector. %loose. unable to test. $5 + shipping % %4) Atari SC1224 monitor...color monitor for the Atari-ST's. works great, %though has some magic marker on the case. asking $10 + shipping % % I'm selling off these to make room for additional aquisitions, so if %interested, please email me! Thanks. % % Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com %-- %---------------------------------------------------------------------------- % Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers % % http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 % % From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 3 13:53:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > and as plentiful as well but I have this very uncommon one...it is a C64 > > in a 64C case that is unlike the normal C64 case. It has the black > > Well, that uncommon 64 is just a regular 64 stuck into an aftermarket > case that came out about the same time the 64C did. (So the people with > the old ones could match the new peripherals, etc.) Tenex used to sell > them in their "64/128 Everything catalogs" for about $25 or so and I think > they were called a Kangaroo or something like that (Had a triangle or > somehting on the case) Actually, this has no markings on it whatsoever, but I'll take your word on it. That's funny...a computer facelift. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 3 14:04:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Question about Sanyo Lunchbox References: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> <33BCAE95.2D60@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <33BBF7B2.246F@rain.org> Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > > Has anyone got any ifo on a Sanyo lunchbox, model number MBC-675? > It brings up a screen that says: > > 1701 > 0 Hard Disks Installed > ROM Bios v2.33 > 640kb memory/ CPU clock 4.77MHz > > Then it just hangs. A boot disk will not work either. I *think* it is an MS-DOS machine and the following system comments are based on that assumption. 1701 on IBM and compatibles is the number for a Hard Disk error. The first thing I would do is listen to see if the HD is actually spinning up. If not, all is not necessarily lost. In that case, I pull the HD and give it a quick spin. Not sure how to describe it easily in words but the idea is that the casing is rotated quickly enough around the platter axis to get the disk to turn slightly. If sticktion is the problem, that will sometimes get it going again until the unit is shut off. I don't recommend beating on the HD although I have heard people say it works for them in cases of stiction. If the HD is spinning up, how long are you waiting after the machine "hangs"? Sometimes there is a waiting period of a minute or more while the operating system waits for the HD to get itself ready. If you are waiting three + minutes or so, I would pull the HD controller and try again. It is possible the controller is bad or that particular BIOS will wait forever for the HD to come to life. You could also disconnect the two ribbon HD cables before pulling the board and see if that makes a difference before pulling the HD controller board. If the machine still hangs, it is possible the floppy disk or controller is bad. The fact that you got a message on the screen tends to indicate the motherboard works although it is possible some of the bus control logic chips are bad and thus, any card plugged into the bus might not work. BTW, I am making a MAJOR assumption that the machine was working at one time and nothing was changed from that time until the time you turned it on. If someone has been screwing around inside with jumpers/switch settings/etc., then you need the docs and will need to check out all settings on the board. Good luck! From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 3 17:19:29 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 References: Message-ID: <33BC2571.2642@unix.aardvarkol.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > That's funny...a computer facelift. Actually, a number of companies offered the same type of thing for the ZX-81/Timex-Sinclair 1000. It was to give the computer a real keyboard more than anything else though and the mainboard for the computer was put inside the keyboard's case. Not too hard considering the size of the ZX-81's mainboard! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From s-ware at nwu.edu Thu Jul 3 15:35:45 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Sanyo Lunchbox, 1701, Stiction, and the Frisbee Toss In-Reply-To: <33BBF7B2.246F@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > 1701 on IBM and compatibles is the number for a Hard Disk error. The > first thing I would do is listen to see if the HD is actually spinning > up. If not, all is not necessarily lost. In that case, I pull the HD > and give it a quick spin. Not sure how to describe it easily in words > but the idea is that the casing is rotated quickly enough around the > platter axis to get the disk to turn slightly. If sticktion is the > problem, that will sometimes get it going again until the unit is shut > off. I don't recommend beating on the HD although I have heard people > say it works for them in cases of stiction. I've heard this technique described as the "frisbee toss", which seems like a relatively accurate description. Just remember not to let go of the drive! A certain manufacturer of brightly-colored workstations shipped quite a few machines with disks that were prone to stiction problems, and the "frisbee toss" was the accepted fix until they released a disk exerciser patch and agreed to replace the drives. When performing this operation, try to make the disk platter spin in the direction that it does in normal operation, if possible. I've had to use this technique on a few older Seagate drives (in addition to the disks in the workstations mentioned above) and have had good results. Don't put too much trust in the disk afterwards, and remember that it will probably not spin up again under its own power after it has been powered off and allowed to cool down. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From dlormand at aztec.asu.edu Thu Jul 3 16:04:56 1997 From: dlormand at aztec.asu.edu (DAVID L. ORMAND) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers" (versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a "home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging words, too. I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives. For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI computer. In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize all the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and another could use. So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill or recyclers? My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that these machines are not useful for "household computing jobs", and by no means did I intend that this mailing list is only for the classic "home computers" with user communities, or to exclude anyone else from participating. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 3 16:44:09 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: pieces of metal and plastic Message-ID: <2186@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <199707031310.GAA04318@mx5.u.washington.edu> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. > It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH > chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) > but I don't know if it jelled. 'Coconut' was certainly the code-name for the HP41 I also like the HP71B. They're very easy to find in the UK at the moment, and tend to sell for about \pounds 20.00. Forth/assembler ROMs are a lot rarer, though, but the built-in Basic is quite nice. I was very lucky - I managed to obtain all the technical docs on the HP71B, including a commented source of the ROMs. It's a very interesting machine internally. The Saturn (which is used in a lot of later HP handhelds, including the HP48 family) is a strange chip. I'd not call it 20 bit, though. Addresses (nybble addresses!) are 20 bits, most registers are 64 bits, and the ALU is (I think) 4 bits. Call it whatever size you like. > -tony > From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 3 17:08:35 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707032208.AA09307@world.std.com> > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will The attrition may be due to limited software or simple the machines failing. Likely the users have found other platforms (older cheaper PCs) or even new ones. Also it may be more difficult to use older machine from the point and click mindset. Don't forget peer pressure "Your still using that?". > Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize al > the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was > hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies t True but some suffer deeper. The more useful and more common software is the more likely it is to be still in use. Hence the commodors/trs80s/cpm machines. A quick survey of archive sites will show the common machines based on software available. > So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read thi > List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it > even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the > abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfil > or recyclers? Depends on their needs and how important compatability is to them. I have a PC becuase I have to not because it's all that great. Some or a lot of the world is PC based and I have to be compatable with them. > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., > other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. Excuse me? not so! Many of the s100 systems had very active user groupd though they were more often segmented by OS rather than bus. > I guess I > do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for > PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like > DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply tha There are several groups for the PDP-8/10/11/vax other than decus but decus goes back to day one. What you forget is the intersil 6100 chip (pdp8! and the desktop version the DECMATE) and closed PDP-11 systems (PDT11/150 and PRO350) were sold in the same space and had very seperate communities outside of DECUS. It's not as cut and dried as your words picture it. Personal computing as adjunct to commercial computing was and is largely driven by cost, capability and software. Many amazingly poor machines did well not for the hardware but an abundance of software. Food for thought, The ti9900 chip is nearly as old as the 8080 and it was a 16bit design based on the TI990 minicomputer. Wouldn't you want that machine? FYI it was not that large (comparable to a PDP-11/20.). Yet the ti99/4a was year later...why? No support from TI, they figured you get the mini and devlope applications using the chip so support was limited. FYI, the ti9900 chip is a fairly high performance CCPU compared to the 8080! Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 3 18:17:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> from "DAVID L. ORMAND" at Jul 3, 97 02:04:56 pm Message-ID: <9707032217.AA06315@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1332 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970703/b19fa56a/attachment-0001.ksh From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 3 18:50:01 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition References: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: <33BC3AA9.101A@Brighton-UK.com> DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > > Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers" > (versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a > "home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about > putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging > words, too. I certainly did not mean to imply that > these machines are not useful for "household computing jobs", and by no > means did I intend that this mailing list is only for the classic "home > computers" with user communities, or to exclude anyone else from > participating. Now here is somebody who knows how to use his head and can see clearly without the fog of partiality in front of his eyes. Well done David. I wholeheartedly share your views and welcome reasoning (as opposed to rubbishing or distorting other people views) Thank you enrico > > -- > ********************************************** > * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * > * dlormand@aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * > **************************** TMS9900 Lives! * -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From djenner at halcyon.com Thu Jul 3 18:30:01 1997 From: djenner at halcyon.com (Dave Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Archiving References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20564245E@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33BC35F9.C7F986A3@halcyon.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote about Central Point Option Board: > > If you want to spend a lot of hours sifting through vendors' junk-board > boxes, you can find one without software or cable for maybe $1-5, and > get the software off the 'net, but I price mine in original box with > software & cable at more like $50 or trade. > Kai, Where's the software? I have a board, but maybe not the most recent software. Dave From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 3 20:23:27 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems ROM BIOS References: <9707031456.AA03812@alph02.triumf.ca> <33BCAE95.2D60@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <33BC508F.53DA@rain.org> I have a portable Zenith Data Systems computer, Model # ZFA-121-52 and Serial Number 508EE0351. It looks like pictures of a Z160 but I don't see that ID anywhere on the machine. Unfortunately, the BIOS has been removed and having one in place will most likely help the performance of the machine a lot :). If anyone has one of these machines, I would appreciate it if you could send me a binary image of the two BIOS chips. I don't know what is available in the CP/M world but there is a utility called HACKROM in the MS-DOS world that will make a copy of the BIOS chip(s) and store it on disk. I have used it and it has saved me a LOT of trouble in the past when I had a machine with a BIOS that would go bad as soon as it warmed up. Got a listing while the machine was still cold, blew another set of BIOS chips, and I was back in business! Since this is an MS-DOS machine, it will probably work to get a good copy of the BIOS. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 4 00:36:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: <9707032104.AA21566@aztec.asu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers" > (versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a > "home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about > putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging > words, too. I wouldn't necessarily call it a fight. More like a debate. > For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have > a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home > computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was > anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. > But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if > being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program > it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most > of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of > having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the > trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user > community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI > computer. > > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will > waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in > exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a > simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing > tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. All this (and I'm not just picking on you David) is just so much techno ludditism. That's like arguing that the Model T is still a usable car and we must keep driving it to keep it viable? Why? Sure it's still usable in that you can still drive around in one, but technology moves on. If you want to keep it viable, more power to you. But don't expect people to follow suit. Most people would rather use the latest and greatest. I collect the old stuff for a number of reasons. I like to boot them up once in a while and use them, but I can't possibly make it a point of using all of them. I can see even if you have just one system that you still use all the time (I used my Apple //e up until about 1992) but there comes a point where you have to just move on, for some at least (me). > So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this > List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it > even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the > abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill > or recyclers? Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar peecee games? > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I Oh hardly! I hope you're only referring to the fact that you wouldn't buy mainframes and mini's in Kmart, but there certainly were communities of users around these machines. Those old behemoths are as loved by older generations of programmers as your Ataris, TIs and Commodore's are. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 4 01:16:01 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 1980s Laser 50 computer??? Message-ID: Greetings: I am wondering if any of you out there could help me out. I am looking to acquire an old educational computer that I had years ago called the Laser 50 personal computer. What it was is an old educational computer (for kids basically) produced by V-Tech, or Video Technologies, Ltd. around the mid 1980s. This machine was the size of a regular laptop computer and allowed small BASIC programs to be saved internally, and also had built in educational software, calculator, etc. The manual I still have for it says an additional cassette recorder could be purchased to save programs on, as well as printers, and a 16k expansion unit. Please let me know if you might have any information on this computer.... I would really like to find one for my kids. I am also looking to find the address for the manufacturer. I know V Tech still makes computer-like educational machines for youngsters today. I would appreciate your help. Thanks in advance, CORD COSLOR PO Box 308 Peru, NE 68421-0308 (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu From pcoad at crl.com Fri Jul 4 01:41:34 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, DAVID L. ORMAND wrote: > > > For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have > > a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home > > computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was > > anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. > > But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if > > being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program > > it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most > > of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of > > having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the > > trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user > > community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI > > computer. > > > > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will > > waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in > > exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a > > simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing > > tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. > > All this (and I'm not just picking on you David) is just so much > techno ludditism. That's like arguing that the Model T is still a usable > car and we must keep driving it to keep it viable? Why? Sure it's still > usable in that you can still drive around in one, but technology moves > on. If you want to keep it viable, more power to you. But don't expect > people to follow suit. Most people would rather use the latest and greatest. > Any community based on unsupported technology will eventually shrink to a few hardcores. Attracting new people will be difficult at best. Old people will drop out, occasionally a new one will be bitten by the bug. Use your TI because it is useful to you. Write new applications because it makes you happy and impresses the other hardcores. You may not be able to attract many new members, but you can support the ones who are are already there. You said above that one of the reasons for using TIs is because there are others doing the same. If you want to sustain the TI community, give it a reason to exist. Start a collaborative project, publish a newsletter about TIs crosspost to a.f.c, be visible in the TI newsgroup. > I collect the old stuff for a number of reasons. I like to boot them up > once in a while and use them, but I can't possibly make it a point of > using all of them. > As a broad collector it is difficult to use all of your machines. Just collecting a wide range of machines sucks up huge amounts of time. Some people are a little more focused and actually collect partly to use the machines. > I can see even if you have just one system that you still use all the > time (I used my Apple //e up until about 1992) but there comes a point > where you have to just move on, for some at least (me). > Just because one buys a new machine does not mean that one is moving on. It is possible to use several machines for different purposes. Sam, you haven't really moved on completely. You still have your Apple. You still fire it up once in a while. You may not feel responsible for keeping the Apple II flame alive, but by using, answering questions, and by reminiscing about it you help stretch the useful life of the machines. > > So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this > > List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it > > even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the > > abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill > > or recyclers? > > Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy > writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar > peecee games? I'll agree with Sam on part of this. You may not be able to attract new users, but you can help sustain those who are already using the machines. You can also try to find those who have used the machines in the past and might be attracted to using them again if it seems like there are others around for support. You may even find a few others who are are using TIs and thought they were the last one. Not everything everyone does is to make money. Some of us do things because they are fun, help others, kill time, impress women (or men), etc. Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can be writing million dollar peecee games? Keep the flame, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From ursa at idir.net Fri Jul 4 08:30:15 1997 From: ursa at idir.net (ursa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 In-Reply-To: <199707020702.AAA20008@lists.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: *** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: CLASSICCMP Digest 101 *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:27:36 +0000 *:From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu *:Subject: Re: Strange Tandy 1000HX *:Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789@mail.cgocable.net> *:MIME-Version: 1.0 *:Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII *:Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT *: *:Jeff, *: *:> I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't *:> handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy *:> drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out *:> behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. *:Why not check out the external 5.25" internals? Point is, can use *:those easier to obtain 1.44mb drives and use them as 720k in old XT's *:in place of harder to find 720k drives. I did that just like that *:in one of those IBM XT using its original controller and a brand new *:20 bux 1.44 in PC that allowed me to fire it up with my 720k Dos 5.0 *:and install it to hd also allows user to interchange data with newer *:pcs easily. 360k was 40 tracks by 9 sectors, 720k used 80 tracks but *:the older controller controlled this drives no problem therefore *:any newer 1.44 will work as a 720k duty. In fact, 1.44 and 720k *:drives only differs in minor ways: higher frequency heads, extra *:sensor put in to support the 18 sectors. *: *:BIG snap! *: *:> Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I *:> believe. One needs the *:> PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two *:> additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about *:> the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into *:> one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the *:> drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power *:> through the ribbon cable. *:Thanks for correction and oddball mHz? Most clones uses 8mHz. *:If you could look in external drive, it might have adapter wirings *:that will allow you to make new cables adapters for that "1.44" as *:720k drives to put in your HX machine. *:--- *: *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:23:38 -0700 (PDT) *:From: Bill Whitson *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu *:Subject: FAQ Bonanza *:Message-ID: *:Mime-Version: 1.0 *:Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII *: *:============================================================================= *: DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW *: YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE *: THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF *:============================================================================= *:ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List *:Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy *:Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 *:Last Update: 7/01/97 *:----------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available *:answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is *:Maintained by Bill Whitson . The infor- *:mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, *:in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- *:ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible *:and often failed ;). *: *:This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented *:deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. *: *:If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please *:contact me at the address above. *: *:A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. *:washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the *:directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. *:---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:Updates: New Sections: 2.1, 3.1 *:----------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:1. Mailing Lists *:---------------- *:1.1 Mailing List Basics *:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot *: How to set to Digest *: How to Subscribe *: How to Unsubscribe *: *:2. FTP *:------ *:2.1 FTP Basics *: *:3. World Wide Web *:----------------- *:3.1 WWW Basics *: *:============================================================================= *:1.1 Mailing List Basics *: *:A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it *:to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the *:distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message *:to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it *:to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). *:If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution *:list. *: *:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot *: *:There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To *:send a command to the list processor, write a message to *: listproc@u.washington.edu *:(Do NOT send the message to classiccmp@u.washington.edu). In the body of *:the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following *:commands, then send the message. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK *: *: Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you *: write to the list. This is the default. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK *: *: Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages *: you write to the list. I don't recommend this. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST *: *: Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages *: rather than each as it is posted. With this option *: you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep *: a nice, tidy in-box. *: *:SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address *: *: Subscribes you to the list. *: *:UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address *: *: Removes you from the list. *: *:[][][][][][][][][][] *: *:2.1 FTP Basics *: *:FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. *:You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The *:commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general *:you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a *:program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file *:is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually *:termed PUT. *: *:Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the *:ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.27. *: *:You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an *:anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked *:for a password enter your internet e-mail address. *: *:[][][][][][][][][][] *: *:3.1 WWW Basics *: *:The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells *:and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to *:know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is *:all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest *:Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. *: *:The ClassicCmp site is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html. *:--- *:Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:36:55 -0500 *:From: Allen Underdown *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu *:Subject: Re: Flex for 6809/6800 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *:Message-ID: <33B9E8F7.7C5A@valuenet.net> *:MIME-Version: 1.0 *:Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii *:Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *: *:Benedict Chong wrote: *:> Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? *:> There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to *:> let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. *:> *:> Ben *: *:Don't worry, I have several copys... *:-- *:| Allen Underdown - wbrco@valuenet.net | *:| Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | *:| homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | *:| http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | *: *:--- From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 4 10:14:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 References: Message-ID: <33BD134A.5390@rain.org> ursa wrote: > > *** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > CLASSICCMP Digest 101 > > *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:27:36 +0000 > *:From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > *:To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > *:Subject: Re: Strange Tandy 1000HX > *:Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789@mail.cgocable.net> > *:MIME-Version: 1.0 > *:Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII What is the point of just recopying this message??? One of my pet grips is people who waste bandwidth by copying messages and adding either nothing or just one liners. From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 4 11:03:03 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 In-Reply-To: <33BD134A.5390@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > ursa wrote: > > > > *** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: > > CLASSICCMP Digest 101 > > > > What is the point of just recopying this message??? One of my pet grips > is people who waste bandwidth by copying messages and adding either > nothing or just one liners. Now Marvin. Are you going to tell me you have NEVER accidently hit reply and then hit send instead of cancel 8-) Don't scare them shitless! Every body does a booboo once in a while. Let them recover and maybe we will get the message they were planning on sending. I don't think there is a way to cancel a email like in the news. So ya I have done this. I am quick enough tho to immdiately send ANOTHER waste of bandwidth with a "Oops - sorry about that" message. It least everyone knows I know I messed up 8-) BC From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 4 12:08:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 101 References: Message-ID: <33BD2DFF.2A51@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > Now Marvin. Are you going to tell me you have NEVER accidently hit reply > and then hit send instead of cancel 8-) Don't scare them shitless! Every > body does a booboo once in a while. Let them recover and maybe we will get > the message they were planning on sending. > Nope, never have (and that can probably be chalked up to just plain luck!) I guess the point was that I am seeing a lot of messages with few comments along with too much quoting, and that is just a waste bandwidth as well as our time. And of course, I am not referring to accidents as you describe and I should have explicitly stated that! Thanks for pointing that one out. From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 4 12:36:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Paul E Coad wrote: > > Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy > > writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar > > peecee games? > > Not everything everyone does is to make money. Some of us do things > because they are fun, help others, kill time, impress women (or men), etc. > Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can > be writing million dollar peecee games? Of course it's done for fun, but don't expect anyone to come around and start developing software for a dead platform just so others can have fun. The developers still need to eat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 4 12:54:02 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970704105758.65bf68c6@mail.crl.com> At 03:19 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >> That's funny...a computer facelift. > > Actually, a number of companies offered the same type of thing for the >ZX-81/Timex-Sinclair 1000. It was to give the computer a real keyboard And the Atari ST -- to put it in a tower case, among other things. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 4 12:54:05 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> At 02:04 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of >having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the >trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user >community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI [...] >exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a >simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing >tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. [...] >hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to >attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern >applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and I am facing a similar situation in the Atari community. I have to admit that I gave away my 600XL in favor of the ST long before the thought of collecting computers ever hit me. Similarly, my ST's and Falcons are pretty much dedicated to studio stuff (and I don't get to "play" with that much these days) and I use my windows laptop almost exclusively (6-16hrs/day). Nonetheless, I am president of ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society, and probably will continue to be for a long time. Atarians are somewhat lucky in that there is a reasonably strong vendor market, good user groups, and wonderful emulation options. Still, ABACUS has been experiencing a seriously declining membership recently as people traded in their ST's for PC's. We talked about it, and decided that what even the PC people didn't want to lose was the "family" we had built up in the club. There are lots of PC user groups, but none with the character of ABACUS. (How many clubs have a Land Rover owner, a waffle collector, and a 76 year old newsletter editor?) So we changed a bit to meet the new focus of the club members. We now have a "PC SIG" and demo PC software and hardware at the meetings, along with ST stuff. We feature general interest (computer) articles in the newsletter (such as my never-ending part 2 of my 3 part series on building web pages) as well as humour and general commentary. We continue to support the ST/Falcon folks as we expand to service the new interests of members. This lets members move on to newer things (graphical web browsers (yes, we know about STiK/CAB, but it's not netscape), CD-ROM's, etc.) while still keeping the ST alive. But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ around here!) The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) They can buy a PC at Circuit City and half their neighbors will be able to set it up for them or answer questions. (Etc.) Not so with machines not quite so mainstream. But if user groups made the effort to become known and to support these computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living room is loaded with older Macs -- until school starts again.) Anyway, sorry to blather on so long, but I think that "obsolete" computers are still useable, valuable, and beneficial. So lets talk about turning people on to them! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Fri Jul 4 13:10:42 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: A good 3rd of July In-Reply-To: <970703082153_1689972112@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199707041810.AA21044@interlock.ans.net> Generally I do not get to gloat much, so here goes... Yesterday was a good day for me in the computer ju...collecting field, as I picked up several goodies: 1) "Stack-o-VAX" - Actually, a VAXstation 2000 (in the larger brick), along with two expansion bricks. All three boxes contain RD54s, and are in very nice shape. I did not get a tube or keyboard, but that should be no problem. 2) Apollo 10000 - While not a classic just yet (wait two years), it is the last Apollo made before HP took over the line. It appears to have quite a lot of horsepower (two BIT floating point chips) and a nice looking graphics card (1280x1024 40 bit, with coprocessors). It is, um, a bit beat up and shows a little corrosion, but the boards seem OK (still covered with small dust rats). I will need drives, as this machine was formerly used by the government. 3) PDP-11/23 - Normally not special, but this one is NEW. It has not been powered up since it left the factory (a sticker over the power sockets is still holding on, and the bag of nut clips is still tiewrapped to the back of the unit). It is in perfect shape, except (getting angry now), a big chip in the front paint, formerly covered with an government sticker. Splatter coat paint jobs are easy to mend, luckily. By the way, lets drop the bickering about definitions and such, and get back to geeky tech talk. William Donzelli william@ans.net From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 4 15:30:40 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> References: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: <33bf5a54.3419188@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:54:05 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: % %The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to %work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) %They can buy a PC at Circuit City and half their neighbors will be able to %set it up for them or answer questions. (Etc.) Not so with machines not %quite so mainstream. % %But if user groups made the effort to become known and to support these %computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or %youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use %them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living %room is loaded with older Macs -- until school starts again.) % %Anyway, sorry to blather on so long, but I think that "obsolete" computers %are still useable, valuable, and beneficial. So lets talk about turning %people on to them! Personally, I don't think a lot of people will want to use older machines. Let's put it that way(perhaps speaking for myself): some of us are spoiled by multi-megabyte operating systems and programs we are familiar with. When I switched from the Atari ST to a 286 PC, I thought that Norton Commander sucks. Now, when I run Linux, I run Midnight Commander, an NC clone. When I turn on a 3B1 (aka Unix PC), I am lost because I cannot see all the files at once. However, as a nostalgia freak, I think that a user group like Abacus can do a lot of good for the future. One of the best things Abacus can do, is to get as much of the source code and rights to the source code as possible. I'm talking about source code to TOS (Tramiel's OS) in the ST and even the firmware in the 8-bit Ataris (I have an 800XL). There's a CP/M cdrom out now, and I think some people were talking about trying to compile all the CP/M source code they have and give it to Caldera so that the latter can do a general CP/M source code release a la OpenDOS. I think the Sinclair Spectrum people have managed to get at least one of the games companies to release its old Spectrum software to the public domain (or at least for public and free distribution). Abacus and other Atari user groups may want to work towards this aim, so that the day all the hardware die, we will still have software to run on the emulators. The other thing is to collect as much technical information on the machines as possible eg. hardware pin outs, the different video circuitry etc. Possibly even the original design plans of the integrated circuits. This is so that at least some of us can continue to maintain the hardware or even do some hardware hacking. Ben From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Fri Jul 4 17:50:25 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Filling in the holes...] Message-ID: <33BD7E31.5C04@Brighton-UK.com> -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "e.tedeschi" Subject: Re: Filling in the holes... Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 22:46:38 +0000 Size: 1982 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970704/918614f0/attachment-0001.mht From cerebral at michianatoday.com Fri Jul 4 18:29:31 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (tiborj) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <23293104007917@michianatoday.com> >Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can >be writing million dollar peecee games. I know you can get some classic stuff for free, but unfortunatly, as with every hobby we love, it costs money. and here is an interesting idea- to beat microsnuff, write as many competeing programs that work BETTER than billy's ( not hard to do), and sell them. and with that cash, you can get more machines! and remember, billy also writes MAC software, that for some reason are worse than you can get for IBM... so we support IBM and MAC, as well as your favorite classic, the more platforms supported, the better it is for everyone! :) From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 4 18:48:08 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Filling in the holes...] In-Reply-To: <33BD7E31.5C04@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: Enrico: As I discussed in private e-mail... I suggest you quit using such a synical approach to e-mail and this list's correspondance. I have done everything on my end of the deal. You send me an MSX, and I send you a Model 1 keyboard/cpu. Have you mailed me the MSX yet? I seriously doubt it. Oh, by the way, Enrico, you haven't even sent me your mailing address... I did a long time ago. The only reason I haven't mailing out the Model 1 yet, is because I have been out of town for well over a week, and it has been physically impossible. It is packaged up, and ready to go. But here in the USA, we have Independence Day on July 4th... and our post offices are closed today. It WILL be sent out ASAP. I hope that you pass up on calling others uneducated on this list, as you did me, Enrico. You don't seem to have a clue as to etiquette around here, and I doubt others will continue to take kindly to it. So, in closing, Enrico, I would appreciate you looking at the actual facts when dealing with others from now on... it sure will help you out. Best Wishes, CORD COSLOR p.s. I don't work for an educational institution as you claimed, either. Now, who is educated? //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > From william at ans.net Fri Jul 4 19:06:23 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: IBM part numbers In-Reply-To: <970703082153_1689972112@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199707050006.AA29865@interlock.ans.net> > << Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part > numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a > little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing > would be very handy. > >> > I have access to all IBM FRU numbers, which will always tell you what you > have; NNLNNNN where n=number and l=letter but that four digit number means > nothing AFAIK. The FRUs look to be somewhat organized, probably in a typical megacomplicated IBM fashion. What I am looking for is a directory of the numbers the customers see on the outside of their machines - 5150 on an PC/XT, 7015 on an RS/6000, 8228 on a Token Ring thing, etc. For example, I just saw an 3089 - a big blue box that could easily crush a Volkswagen. What is it? I have my guesses (3081 or 3090 dofunny attachment). William Donzelli william@ans.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 4 19:22:17 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2220@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> [...] > I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives. Aha... That makes a lot more sense, and I hope I can make some useful comments. > > For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have > a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home > computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was > anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. > But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if > being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program > it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most > of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of > having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the > trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user > community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI > computer. > > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will > waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in > exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a > simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing > tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. I hate to say this here, but I would _not_ recomend a classic computer (any classic computer) as the only system for a non-computer-literate user. IMHO such a user will quickly become disapointed when they find that the things that _they_ can do with the machine are somewhat limited, and that nothing from the local computer store will be of any use to them. I can have advanced video on one of my older machines because I am prepared to write drivers, solder up interfaces, read technical manuals, patch existing programs, etc. OK, I enjoy it. But to suggest that a PERQ 2 driving an I2S image processor and a homebrew GPIB -SCSI interface would be a good machine for the average home user to view his photo-CDs on would be nothing short of insane. Yes, it _could_ be done, but for such a user, a normal, boring, PC-clone would be much more suitable. Even I don't use a classic machine (or at least, what _I_ consider classic) all the time. Earlier this week I needed to write some letters. I could have used a classic-PERQ and printed the results on a Versatec V80. I could have used the paper tape editor on my PDP8/e to punch a tape containing the correct postscript commands and then printed it to my laserprinter using a serial-interfaces paper tape reader. In fact I used something non-classic - a much hacked PC/AT running Linux. I used LaTeX to format the text, and then printed it on said (fairly modern) laserprinter. There are plenty of other things that would have been just as good, but that's the one I chose. The people who (IMHO) we should be trying to attract to classic computers -- and in fact the ones I've had some success in attracting -- are those who are already computer literate to some extent. People who already can write simple programs and want to understand exactly how a system operates. I think it's a lot easier to understand many classic computers (minis and micros) than modern PCs, and the educational value of such machines should not be overlooked. There are (IMHO) at least 4 different types of tasks that can be done with computers : 1) A standard application for which software (commercial, GPL'd, freeware, shareware, whatever) already exists. In which case you pick whatever machine the software runs on. If it runs on more than one system, you choose between them using whatever criteria matter _to you_ (hence me picking a classic computer for its better documentation over a modern PC since both can carry out the tasks I want to do) 2) An existing embedded system. Although it's possible (and sometimes common) to 'modernise', say, a control system based on a minicomputer, there are still a lot of PDP8's and PDP11's running machinery, etc. Provided the old machine works reliably and support/spares are available, it's fine to keep on using it. 3) A new 'embedded' system. Although my example of the I2C chip tester was, I agree, slightly contrived, I was simply pointing out that if you are making a single-purpose machine _for youself (so you can maintain it)_ there's no reason not to use a classic. There's probably no reason not to use something modern either. 4) Education. This includes 'writing programs for fun', understanding how computers (hardware and software) works, etc. This is IMHO the main use of classic computers to the average person these days, and the way we'll attract more people into the hobby. I've said before that you can learn more about processor operation by spending a couple of days with a minicomputer CPU, the schematics for it and a 'scope than by sitting through most lecture courses on the subject. And, I can fully understand the joy that comes from getting a computer to do something that is widely claimed to be 'impossible'. When the CoCo was current, it was normally claimed that you couldn't have PMODE 4 graphics and Semigraphics 4 blocks on the screen at once. I did it, and totally amazed the staff in the local Tandy store. Since it's easy to do most things on a fast PC (you don't really have to save every last cycle, etc), it's more of a challenge to do them on an old home micro. Again, we may be able to attract people because of that. It may be worth looking at how (say) classic car clubs keep their membership. They may well have similar problems - why would you drive (say) a pre-war car when you could have a modern one. Rationally it probably makes very little sense... > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I I will have to disagree with you there. The larger machines that I am involved with have very active user comunities who offer a lot of help and support to newcomers. To give a couple of examples : PERQ : When I was trying to add a printer to my PERQ, I had a few questions. The result was that other owners dismantled their own machines, 'buzzed out' cables, e-mailed me wirelists, and talked me through the whole thing. That's not an isolated incident - a person who was having monitor problems got other owners to pull the covers off their monitors and measure voltages, etc. This is just about the only machine where this level of support still occurs over 10 years after the entire line was discontinued. PDP11. The user community here is split (IMHO) into the professional users who need to keep the machine running, and who can afford DEC diagnostics, replacement boards, etc, and the home hackers who debug everything with a logic probe and printset, rebuild modules and even repair dead fans. I am certainly in the latter category here. But again, questions get answered. People will dig out manuals for obscure hardware and look up pinouts and jumper settings. Newcomers will get answers to introductory questions. BTW, I'm not flaming the support that other user communities give. I'm sure it's excellent, but I've never experienced it, since I don't (in the main) use those machines. > do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for > PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like > DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that The UK chapter of DECUS is pretty useless for home hackers. I am told that other chapters are a lot better in this respect. > * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 4 20:07:43 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <2223@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> [...] > As a broad collector it is difficult to use all of your machines. Just > collecting a wide range of machines sucks up huge amounts of time. Some > people are a little more focused and actually collect partly to use > the machines. I collect machines for a lot of different reasons : a) I want to use them (for whatever purpose). The PDP's, PERQ, and some of the CP/M machines come in here. They have interesting features, and are plain fun to program (elegant instruction set, nice bus for homebrew hardware, etc). b) I got them because they're historically important. I may not care for the Apple ][ hardware design, but it is an extremely important computer historically. I don't tend to use this class of machine too much. c) I got them because if I hadn't they'd have been lost for ever. Either "We're throwing out this , do you want it" or buying a machine that would otherwise have gone as scrap metal. These machines get restored, and (often) then end up in group (a)! > Not everything everyone does is to make money. Some of us do things > because they are fun, help others, kill time, impress women (or men), etc. Quite a lot of people need something to occupy their mind in their spare time. Some people do crossword puzzles. I prefer to figure out how some strange machine really operates. It's probably about as useful :-) (NO FLAMES!). Seriously, while solving crossword puzzles must improve your vocabulary, battling through a schematic or ROM source does improve your computer and electronics knowledge - something that is useful to me. And it's fun :-) > --pec From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 4 20:24:15 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) Message-ID: <2224@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > I am facing a similar situation in the Atari community. I have to admit The HP calculator community (just about the only main-ish-stream one that I am involved with) has much the same problem. People tend not to join user groups, alas, any more. They expect to buy pre-packaged solutions, and if they don't work they expect the manufacturer to fix it. The idea of experimenting, of going a little further, seems to have died out. [...] > had built up in the club. There are lots of PC user groups, but none with > the character of ABACUS. (How many clubs have a Land Rover owner, a waffle > collector, and a 76 year old newsletter editor?) Why on earth do you need to edit a 76 year old newsletter? What's it stored on - Wheatstone Telegraph Tape? (Sorry, couldn't resist). And I guess the answer to your question is 'About as many as calculator clubs with a PERQ fanatic and a classic car enthusiast as members, and a Polish chairman' :-) > But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your > message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call > from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just > not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get > those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise > unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ > around here!) An idea. Sell them the machines cheaply, and then allow them to attend your club meetings for (say) one year free of charge. Having been involved with many user clubs, I realise that the membership money does go to good use, and that it costs a lot of money to produce and print the newsletter. But a lot of people don't see it that way. It costs nothing extra to have a few extra people at meetings, and (a) they will get support for their new toy (thus keeping it running) and (b) may find how useful the club is and will thus join. > The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to > work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) Absolutely. And for that reason, expecting a new user to start on a classic computer is (IMHO) totally unrealistic. > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad -tony From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 4 23:38:21 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Laser 50 computer Message-ID: I posted a message a day or two ago, and I wanted to thank Sam Ismail for responding. I am wondering if anyone else might have one of these Laser 50 computers available (Sam wasn't able to part with any :-( ?? Some more information on this computer. It was manufactured by V-Tech (Video technology Ltd.) in the mid 1980s. It was a small, white, lap-top size computer. It had a single line LCD display and was marketed as a childrens education or beginner's computer. You could expand this 1.5k system by buying cassette recorder, two different printers, and a memory expansion cartridge. OH, yes... you could save up to 9 different programs internally on the computer. Now I also remember it ran on batteries though you could hook up a DC converter to plug into the wall. Had a full-feature BASIC programming language built in, including sound commands... although it didn't have any graphics capabilities (that I know of) it was a fun little computer. Anyway, what I am asking is if anyone out there has one of these or knows where I might be able to find one.... PLEASE let me know. I used to have one (lost it YEARS ago) and I would like my children to be able to use it a bit... plus it's kind of a piece of my computing history that I would like to bring back to my collection! Thanks a lot, and I hope someone has an inkling obout this machine. P.S. This isn't an Apple or IBM close. Best Wishes, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From idavis at comland.com Sat Jul 5 00:35:54 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (clipped) Message-ID: <199707050535.AAA29850@ds9.comland.com> At 10:54 AM 7/4/97 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your >message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call >from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just >not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get >those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise >unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ >around here!) > Due to an accident(broken arm) with my then 5 week old daughter, about a month ago, I spent two days in the local childrens hospital. She is fine now, but at the time, my two sons ages 6 and 3 were bored to tears. On my way back to the room, I noticed a room with an old apple, and some other non computer items. I asked a nurse, and she mentioned that they would love to have some more computers for the kids to use. There were kids in there that were really sick, and I'm sure that there are times where they are bored to tears as well. My point to this whole rant, is that old "obsolete" computers with some fun software would make some happy kids who are in a really bad situation. Any spare computers I run across will be making the trip to the local childrens hospital. I would encourage anyone else who gets calls and doesn't know what to do with these extras to check out their local scene. Who knows, these kids might be able to turn out some really good software. Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the idavis@comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 5 01:55:42 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704105800.65bf8bb4@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > But if user groups made the effort to become known and to support these > computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or > youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use > them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living > room is loaded with older Macs -- until school starts again.) Unfortunately, teachers won't use them in schools because they simply are not PCs, and the curriculum is intended to teach the kids skills which are directly applicable to the real world. Now I'm sure you could argue that at the very least these machines could be used to teach basic computer skills and programming, and I would agree with you. But the position of schools is, if it not a 386 or greater (in other words runs Windows) then they don't want it. That's why they've been slowly dumping their Apple ][s and other computers. > Anyway, sorry to blather on so long, but I think that "obsolete" computers > are still useable, valuable, and beneficial. So lets talk about turning > people on to them! Right on. At least WE can keep them alive. That's the point. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Sat Jul 5 02:14:22 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970705001456.4b07c3aa@ricochet.net> At 10:36 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >people to follow suit. Most people would rather use the latest and greatest. A lot of people would rather use the latest and greatest, but a lot more can only afford a pinto. >Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy >writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar >peecee games? But there are already TI (or other) apps out there that make the TI a very useable machine. From the user side of things, those million dollar peecee games still cost $39.95, as much as a complete TI and software sometimes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From marvin at rain.org Sat Jul 5 10:40:02 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: Building User Communities (long) References: Message-ID: <33BE6AD2.3039@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or > > youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use > > them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living > Unfortunately, teachers won't use them in schools because they simply are > not PCs, and the curriculum is intended to teach the kids skills which are > directly applicable to the real world. Now I'm sure you could argue that This is kind of off topic, but I have been working with several people over the past 5 years or so to put low end computers in the classroom. The main problem is the administration and their perceptions. Second, the teachers are generally not trained on how to effectively use computers in the classroom. Stepping on soapbox, effective use of computers in the classroom is NOT, repeat NOT, for teaching how to use computers, but rather to help learn other subjects. i.e. we use books in classrooms but not to learn how to use books. Stepping off soapbox. Hmmm, maybe it isn't off topic since the computers we put in the classrooms (approximately 100 or so) were mainly PC's (4.77 MHz, 5 slot, circa 1981 machines) donated by local businesses who didn't want to just junk them. From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 5 11:06:19 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <199707051606.AA12141@world.std.com> > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > 4) Education. This includes 'writing programs for fun', understanding h > computers (hardware and software) works, etc. This is IMHO the main use > classic computers to the average person these days, and the way we'll a > more people into the hobby. I've said before that you can learn more ab > processor operation by spending a couple of days with a minicomputer CP > schematics for it and a 'scope than by sitting through most lecture cou > the subject. This I consider a big item. Some of the classic machines are significant in their simplicity or usful in that you can point to identifiable elements (ram, ALU, CONTROL). I frequently use the PDP-8 design for this as it's very simple and the instruction set is about as minimal as can be and still be useful. The same can be asid for some of the 8bitters as well. Allison From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Sat Jul 5 11:59:32 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: HP71B In-Reply-To: <2186@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> from "Tony Duell" at Jul 3, 97 09:44:09 pm Message-ID: <199707051659.LAA09719@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I hope you are the Tony Duell that posted this. If you are not, please accept my apology and ignore this message. I have a HP-71 with the FORTH ROM. I am interested in getting a copy of the technical docs. Do you know of any source for them? Or, assuming no copyright infringements, would you be willing to make a copy? Another option would be for me to make a copy and return the originals to you. Do you know of any HP 42 calculators for sale? I also have one BIG favor to ask. I am trying to get a subscription to two magazines published in the UK: Elektor Electronics and Electronics and Wireless World. Could I send you the money to purchase a copy of each for me? Thanks for your time. John > > In message <199707031310.GAA04318@mx5.u.washington.edu> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. > > It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH > > chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) > > but I don't know if it jelled. > > 'Coconut' was certainly the code-name for the HP41 > > I also like the HP71B. They're very easy to find in the UK at the moment, and > tend to sell for about \pounds 20.00. Forth/assembler ROMs are a lot rarer, > though, but the built-in Basic is quite nice. > > I was very lucky - I managed to obtain all the technical docs on the HP71B, > including a commented source of the ROMs. It's a very interesting machine > internally. The Saturn (which is used in a lot of later HP handhelds, > including the HP48 family) is a strange chip. I'd not call it 20 bit, though. > Addresses (nybble addresses!) are 20 bits, most registers are 64 bits, and the > ALU is (I think) 4 bits. Call it whatever size you like. > > > > > -tony > > > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From Manney at nwohio.nwohio.com Sat Jul 5 16:43:36 1997 From: Manney at nwohio.nwohio.com (Manney@nwohio.nwohio.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: HP71B Message-ID: <199707052210.PAA24577@mx3.u.washington.edu> No, I'm not Tony Duell...I'm Manney. I have the HP-41 emulator ROM, not the Assembler/FORTH ROM (the HP-41 emulator came with a different FORTH and some other stuff.) I have a lot of documentation -- assuming no copyright infringements, I'd be glad to do what I can. Tell me your needs. Since I don't live in the UK (wish I did...about 125 years ago), I can't 'elp you with the magazines...sorry. Manney 419-6630-700 From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Jul 6 09:11:26 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts In-Reply-To: <199707052210.PAA24577@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like controller cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and RLL harddrives. Any help appreciated, Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jul 6 00:45:13 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts In-Reply-To: from "dynasoar" at Jul 6, 97 09:11:26 am Message-ID: <9707060445.AA01284@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1181 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970705/4b34e2ab/attachment-0001.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jul 6 08:28:01 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts References: <9707060445.AA01284@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33BF9D61.F4E8614D@texoma.net> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? > > I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original > > replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like > controller > > cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and > RLL > > harddrives. > > Stuff like you want isn't usually carried by the mainstream > merchandisers. (Though I'd expect you could find XT keyboards > without too much difficulty; I remember buying some keyboards at Fry's > just > last year that were switchable between XT and AT via a little slide > switch on the bottom.) You're best bet is to hit the electronic > surplus stores in your area and dig through their bins. Here > in Vancouver, there's a place called "Computer Warehouse" which > has an excellent supply of XT- and AT-era hardware, including > floppies, controller cards, and MFM drives. When I lived in LA, > All Electronics (especially their big store on Oxnard in Van Nuys) > was a good source of this stuff. University and school surplus > auctions are also a good place to find this sort of stuff. > Tell us where you are and someone > local to you may be able to point you in the right direction. > > Tim. Here in the Dallas area, there are several good surplus stores. I saw full height hard drives for $1.00 last week, XT keyboards (original IBM) are usually around $3-5.00. Also we have a computer fllea market the first Saturday of each month. I bought a mint CalComp "E" size pen plotter with over 200 pens for $100.00 yesterday at First Saturday. James From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Jul 6 08:22:15 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:11 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts Message-ID: <199707061320.IAA19363@challenge.sunflower.com> I have a pretty good inventory of these types of things, let me know exactly what you need, and I'll see if I have one. I may not have original IBM, but I can get you up. ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: IBM XT Parts > Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 12:45 AM > > > Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? > > I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original > > replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like controller > > cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and RLL > > harddrives. > > Stuff like you want isn't usually carried by the mainstream > merchandisers. (Though I'd expect you could find XT keyboards > without too much difficulty; I remember buying some keyboards at Fry's just > last year that were switchable between XT and AT via a little slide > switch on the bottom.) You're best bet is to hit the electronic > surplus stores in your area and dig through their bins. Here > in Vancouver, there's a place called "Computer Warehouse" which > has an excellent supply of XT- and AT-era hardware, including > floppies, controller cards, and MFM drives. When I lived in LA, > All Electronics (especially their big store on Oxnard in Van Nuys) > was a good source of this stuff. University and school surplus > auctions are also a good place to find this sort of stuff. > Tell us where you are and someone > local to you may be able to point you in the right direction. > > Tim. From dynasoar at mindspring.com Sun Jul 6 23:13:31 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (dynasoar) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Composite output In-Reply-To: <199706261345.17802@tw500.eng.cam.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > ... Is it > > possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built > > in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? ... > > In general, yes you can........ > -- > -tony > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk This sounds like a real workable solution to the problem of finding suitable displays for some of the old T.V. dependent machines. Would you be willing to give really specific directions on how to do this? Something a relative amateur with a few basic electronics skills could follow? Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From thedm at sunflower.com Sun Jul 6 09:53:33 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Composite output Message-ID: <199707061451.JAA22190@challenge.sunflower.com> Once I try it myself, sure. All I planned on doing was desoldering, or patching onto the input of the RF modulator, {the 1.5x2in box that you plug your tv into) to a composite RCA style connector. Hoping this will work. ---------- > From: dynasoar > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Composite output > Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 11:13 PM > > > > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, A.R. Duell wrote: > > > > ... Is it > > > possible to just tap the input's before they get to the RF modulator {built > > > in} and use a composite monitor, of which I have dozens? ... > > > > In general, yes you can........ > > -- > > -tony > > ard12@eng.cam.ac.uk > > This sounds like a real workable solution to the problem of finding > suitable displays for some of the old T.V. dependent machines. Would you > be willing to give really specific directions on how to do this? Something > a relative amateur with a few basic electronics skills could follow? > > Thanks, > > Kirk Scott > dynasoar@mindspring.com > From jrice at texoma.net Sun Jul 6 14:05:06 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: This Weeks Haul References: Message-ID: <33BFEC62.620788F8@texoma.net> This was the Fist Saturday Flea Market in downtown Dallas weekend: My haul: 1 Tandy M100, working with printer cable, cassette cable, and bar code reader $20.00 1 CalComp 1043 "E" size plotter with cables and 200 pens $100.00 1 USR Pilot deluxe leather case $1.00 ($49 in USR's catalog, yes I know it's not a classic, but I use the hell out of it) 1 Tandy 20m hard card for the 1000 series NIB (the guy had around 50 of the) $10.00 Passed up a NEC Model 100 look-a-like for $45 and a Kaypro 4 for $50 (you can't collect everything you would like if you live in an apartment with limited space) A good weekend shopping spree.. From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 6 14:24:21 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) Message-ID: More information on the HHCs as requested. I should've included this bit with the last message. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:40:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: HHC Sam, Yes they come with power supplies (internal batteries and AC adaptors).I have very few manuals however. Mike From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 6 14:23:41 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) Message-ID: Here's more information that someone requested on the HHCs. I will be compiling a list of people who have requested to be in on the deal so that everyone will know that their request was received. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 13:39:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: HHC Hi Sam, I can include as many ROM chips as you like,the width of the printer is 40 characters and thermal paper is available.Incidentally do you know someone named BROSWELL ? He made me an offer for one of the Aim computers which I accepted and that was the last I heard from him. Regards,Mike From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jul 6 15:46:26 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jul 6, 97 12:23:41 pm Message-ID: <9707061946.AA01707@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1078 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970706/f33c11df/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 6 14:59:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Upcoming Sale References: <33BFEC62.620788F8@texoma.net> Message-ID: <33BFF90B.417D@rain.org> Picked up an NCR PC-8 (I think the number is correct) with monitor and docs for $20. I probably could have gotten it for free if I had waited a week, but then again, the whole thing probably would be spread all over the sale area and stuff could well have gotten lost! Also picked up a couple years (not complete) worth of Soft Sector Magazine from about 1984 to 1987. While I was there, I saw a Kaypro II, Commodore 128, a Spectragraphics CAD setup with several workstations, and about 40 or 50 PCs and PS/2 computers. These will be up for sale next weekend, July 12th, at the Santa Barbara Amateur Radio Club Bazaar. Prices are usually excellent and get better (free) the longer they are there. The sale will run from 9AM to noon. The usual mode is prices start at excellent at 9AM, half that at 10AM, and free after about 11AM or 11:30AM. After that, the dumpster gets filled up with whatever remains. I don't know if I have room to pick up much else out there although I will pick up the Kaypro and Commodore 128 if they are going for free. Hate to see the Spectragraphics stuff dumped, but I just don't have the room for it. Shipping is probably out of the question since I would expect that to run a minimum of $100 (at least several hundred pounds.) As usual, I will pick up any docs that remain although I don't know if there are any with the system. From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 6 15:32:45 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33c500a1.826671@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: % %More information on the HHCs as requested. I should've included this bit %with the last message. % %Sam %------------------------------------------------------------------------------- %Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Sorry for the noise, but: I have been trying to email to say that I want 2 of those handhelds, but I keep getting a message saying that the email to Sam can't be delivered (to dastar@crl.com). Ben From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Jul 7 08:56:05 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: HHC (fwd) References: <33c500a1.826671@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33C0F575.201A@mindspring.com> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:24:21 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > > % > %More information on the HHCs as requested. I should've included this > bit > %with the last message. > % > %Sam > %------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > %Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass > > Sorry for the noise, but: > > I have been trying to email to say that I want 2 of those handhelds, > but I keep getting a message saying that the email to Sam can't be > delivered (to dastar@crl.com). > > Ben Same here, I intended to be put down for two, but can't get mail through to you, Sam. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Sun Jul 6 17:28:25 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Floppy connectors (was: Re: Sony CP/M machine?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Interesting. I have an external 5.25" floppy with a DB-25 connector and > > its own power supply brick. I found the DB25 connector odd, mostly since > > I've never seen an external 5.25" drive except for Apple ][s, and this > > one was obviously not for Apple ][s since the later model Apple drives > > used a DB15. I wonder if this is compatible with it? Or just a generic > > external PC-compat drive. > > IBM's own external drives used a DB37 connector. If it belongs to a PC, > I'm guessing it is for use with one specific vendor's machine. I've got an external 5.25" drive for a "Laser Concept 286/16 Laptop" that uses a DB25. (I have the drive, and the manual for the computer, but not the computer.) This drive gets power from the computer. > It is -possible- that it could belong to an Amiga. AFAIR, the Amiga's > external floppy port is DB25 (mine's not in front of me at the moment), > but the A1010 external 3.5" floppy I have gets power from the computer. The Amiga floppy port is DB23, not DB25. > I don't count myself an expert on external floppy drives, though. > > ok > -r Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 6 16:11:28 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Composite output Message-ID: <2255@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <199707061451.JAA22190@challenge.sunflower.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Once I try it myself, sure. All I planned on doing was desoldering, or > patching onto the input of the RF modulator, {the 1.5x2in box that you plug > your tv into) to a composite RCA style connector. Hoping this will work. That's what I did (in most cases). The modulator typically has 3-5 connections. They are : Ground (connected to the 0v line of the computer) Power (typically +9V - +12V) Video Input (Composite - jsut what you want) Channel Select (in the US - connected to the Channel 3/Channel 4 switch) Audio Input Most modulators are standard parts, and you can get data on them (or at least a pinout. I'm unlikely to be much help here, since I'm in the UK, and our TV system is different). Anyway, you need to identify the video input. Either look at the modulator data sheet, the schematics of the computer or trace it out by hand (eliminate the ground and power pins, and look at what's left). I've just found the (USA) CoCo Technical manual. The modulator has 5 connections, including the case. It's a UM1285-8 (I suspect that this is used in other computers as well). Anyway, the connections are : Case - ground 1 (Nearest the RCA socket on the modulator) - Video Input 2 +12V power 3 Audio Input 4 Channel Select Now connect a piece of 75 Ohm video cable with the centre wire to the video input pin on the modulator and the braid to the 0V line. Connect the other end of that cable to the monitor. -tony From louiss at gate.net Sun Jul 6 20:34:12 1997 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Osborne Collectibles Message-ID: <199707070133.VAA22432@chickasaw.gate.net> OSBORNE 1 AND EXECUTIVE COLLECTIBLES Hi, I've decided to focus my collecting on Apple items. Therefore, I have some Osborne collectibles I'd like to sell. I thought I'd give this group the first shot, before going public. All items are AS IS, subject to the descriptions given. Nothing is warranted, except that the items are as represented. Prices do not include shipping from Tampa, Florida 1 Tan Case Osborne 1. Beautiful cosmetic condition. Has double-density upgrade. Startup screen displays with extra characters (zeros), and attempts to boot a disk result in boot errors..........$75 1 Osborne-103 "internal" modem with manual and software. Blue plastic, fits in pocket below left-hand disk drive. Missing ribbon jumper cable (should be simple to replace). Cosmetically excellent...$25 5 Osborne 1 "User's Reference Guides". There are a number of different versions and revisions. Original version in black plastic 3-ring binder from December,1981 with corrections(the corrections seem to pre-date the publication-I think they are misdated).......$25 Completely re-written version in black plastic 3-ring binder appears to be from around January, 1982.......$25 Blue spiral-bound version from February, 1982 in good condition..$20 Blue spiral bound version as above in fair condition with tabs added to pages...$10 Grey paper-back version that appears to have come with blue case Osbornes in very good condition....$20 1 Package of correspondence and documents from OCC including an updated section on SuperCalc (contained in the second black plastic manual), information on upgrades and software, and an introductory letter machine-signed by Adam Osborne....$10 1 MBasic manual, grey paper-back....$5 1 Osborne Field Service Manual published by Xerox for Osborne 1,1A and Executive. 245 pages in 3-ring binder plus appencices, schematics, and updates through February 1984. Very comprehensive and easy to use. Unfortunately missing first 42 pages on general Osborne 1 disassembly. However, it appears that this material was mostly the obvious things, and the comparable sections for the Executive are present. Very useful......$35 1 Osborne 1 Technical Manual by Osborne Computer, 1982. Complete photocopy of manual with schematics, appendice, etc. Approximately 250 pages. The schematics are foldouts, and photocopy may have been the original means of reproduction.......$35 2 Boxed sets of original Osborne software. Each Osborne labeled box contains the following original disks in original sleeves: CP/M System; CP/M Utility; CBasic/MBasic; SuperCalc; WordStar; Upgrade Diskette. Note that these are sold as collector's items- the data integrity is not warranted, in fact the contents of the disks are not warranted...$30 2 Double Density User's Manual with original Extended Utility Disk in original sleeve in blue plastic binder. Like new, data integrity not guaranteed.....$10 13 Original Osborne disks in Osborne sleeves. Some have user-applied labels. May or may not contain labeled software. Data integrity not guaranteed. Titles: Double Density WordStar(2); Diagnostic II Diskette One; Osborne Executive Exerciser Diskette; Executive Diagnostics(2); PC Files; CP/M System; CP/M Utility; SuperCalc; Extended Utility Disk; Single Density WordStar; Upgrade Diskette.....$3 each 1 XtraKey User Guide...$3 1 SuperGraphics 4.1. Original disk, manual and literature.....$10 1 "The Portable Companion", premiere issue, June/July 1982 published by Osborne Computer. 85 page full-color magazine, a true collectible. Color cover shows Afghan guerillas using an Osborne 1....$25 1 "A Guide to Products and Services for the Osborne Computers" by Spite Software, 1985. A 50 page guide to everything that was available... ...$10 1 Grey plastic cover from the back of an Osborne. These are often missing.. ...$5 Offers on multiple items or for everything are welcome. Please e-mail me at louiss@gate.net with any questions. Louis From louiss at gate.net Sun Jul 6 21:34:23 1997 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Osborne Collectibles Message-ID: <199707070233.WAA24338@osage.gate.net> It appears my last post may have contained at least one ambiguity. In each case where the number of available items is more than one, the price is for EACH. For example, for the 2 boxed sets of original software, the price is $30 for each box. I apologize for any confusion. On Sun, 06 Jul 97 21:34:12 -0400, Louis Schulman wrote: > > OSBORNE 1 AND EXECUTIVE COLLECTIBLES > >Hi, > >I've decided to focus my collecting on Apple items. Therefore, I have some >Osborne collectibles I'd like to sell. I thought I'd give this group the >first shot, before going public. >etc. Louis From ursa at idir.net Mon Jul 7 00:17:01 1997 From: ursa at idir.net (ursa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP Digest #101 BrainDeath In-Reply-To: <199707050702.AAA09054@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: *:On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 classiccmp@u.washington.edu wrote: *: CLASSICCMP Digest 104 *: 1) Re: CLASSICCMP digest 101 *: by ursa My apologies for this fubar. Pine's auto-upload grabbed CCML #101 instead of the intended message. Or So I *Thought* ... It seems the NUL bucket wasn't quite as empty as we've been led to believe... We caught the responsible ruffian who dared dilly-dally discoursive data mustering modemic mayhem & what not, et al, ad nauseum... Please find chained below, for your drubbing pleasure, the Rogue & Hacker - Quasi Goto: .,. __., ,";~`' / `\l/ _ `O ( ' `./ <. \ I l_ ---,- ) ) ,'\ ( (--------/ /--l ,\ \ o=== \ __/ ===o o'((( I `. \ /)))`o`o```I____I ________ `o_/ ''' `o' / ,, ; \ / o' (o....' l l `o-o-o-o-o-o-o-0======o l l `o-o-o "`"'\i/~"\l/"`""` ( We know what you're thinking ... "where did we ever find such an ) ( ~attractive~ COBOL programmer?" All we can say ) ( is: "You've gotta sweep alotta dungeons before you smell the flowers.") He has been hiding in our NUL bucket (nasty habit), regurgitating when our electronic back was turned... Please throw only fresh vegetables, as he will only eat the rotten ones, sort of taking the edge off of the punishment thing... Thank you for your patience & understanding. Our barristers, Forth, Lisp, Rodney, Punch-Card, & Howl have assured us that should such happen again, certain rather uncomfortable "snips" *will* occur - and something or other concerning being eaten by a grue... RetroHexaDecimatically Yours, -=GF=- TagByPsychoTag: "Tornados are both Vortical & Harmizontal." -=GF=- (Remember you heard it here first - on Mental Roller Derby)... From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jul 7 00:53:50 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Wanted: Old Amiga Genlocker Message-ID: If anyone has any old genlockers (preferably with some software) that will work on both/either an A600 and an A1000, please e-mail me! They (my amigas) are becoming paper weights and I'd like to put them to use as video titlers atleast. Thanks, Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Mon Jul 7 01:54:51 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: I picked up a Convergent Technologies CP001/8 along with a tonne of extra bits this weekend. It is an absolutely fascinating machine, but I have no idea how to use it. /: Unfortunately, in all the extensive documentation I picked up (including numerous schematics) there is not one operator's or user's guide, although such are mentioned. The OS reference is, apparently, devoted to the mechanicals: system calls, and so on. Useful, but not at the fledgeling stage. (: If someone knows aught about this machine, I would sure love to hear what you've got to tell. I also picked up a TI 99/4A and an Apple ][plus, which I shall require some guidance with as well, as I cut my teeth on TRS-80 machines, and didn't really even get into computers until I had moved up to a 386sx.. Thanks. ok -r From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jul 7 05:41:10 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: <199707071039.FAA02527@challenge.sunflower.com> Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons that lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do make a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to find it. ---------- > From: Ray Stricklin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies > Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 1:54 AM > > > I picked up a Convergent Technologies CP001/8 along with a tonne of > extra bits this weekend. It is an absolutely fascinating machine, but I > have no idea how to use it. /: > > Unfortunately, in all the extensive documentation I picked up (including > numerous schematics) there is not one operator's or user's guide, although > such are mentioned. The OS reference is, apparently, devoted to the > mechanicals: system calls, and so on. Useful, but not at the fledgeling > stage. (: > > If someone knows aught about this machine, I would sure love to hear what > you've got to tell. > > I also picked up a TI 99/4A and an Apple ][plus, which I shall require > some guidance with as well, as I cut my teeth on TRS-80 machines, and > didn't really even get into computers until I had moved up to a 386sx.. > > Thanks. > > ok > -r > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 7 10:48:29 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: MC-10 ??? Message-ID: Does anyone have any old documentation, software, etc., etc., for the old Radio Shack TRS-80 MICRO Color Computer.... also known as the MC-10. I just aquired one with the power-supply, but nothing further. And, I am trying to locate more information on this little unit as well as software for it. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Mon Jul 7 11:02:45 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: IBM XT Parts In-Reply-To: from "dynasoar" at Jul 6, 97 09:11:26 am Message-ID: <199707071602.LAA09929@mastif.ee.nd.edu> > > > Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? > I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original > replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like controller > cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and RLL > harddrives. > > Any help appreciated, > > Thanks, > > Kirk Scott > dynasoar@mindspring.com > > > Try DakTech 4900 Ritter Rd. Mechanicsburg, PA 17055 717/795-9420 John -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jul 7 11:18:01 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Apple & Commodore Stuff on Auction Message-ID: <33C116B9.1DB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Hello again. Time for the list of stuff. I have listed some items on a different auction than eBay AuctionWeb this time. It's a new auction so it's faster to search (less listings) and they do have a vintage computer category and a Non-PC/Mac software category. I'm still trying to reduce the pile (and get a little money for tuition next month) so everything sells for whatever the high bid is. Most of the power supplies/boards have been going for about $5 so far with a few exceptions. Remember to figure shipping in to what it's worth to you, I'm in Central CA. AuctionWeb: Mac II Logic Bd - NEW! Sealed From Factory! Bidding starts at: $5.00 Auction ends on: 07/13/97, 16:54:10 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=dcv57812 Apple IIc Power Supply NEW! Factory Bag/Box! Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/13/97, 17:15:38 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=fok750072 Apple II SCSI Card Current bid: $15.00 Auction ends on: 07/13/97, 17:25:49 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=uiy958 Auction Works: Commodore 1541 Drive in Orig Box Starts at $3 http://www.auctionworks.com/cgi-win/bid.exe?SITEID=WORKS+ACTION=VIEW+LOT=117+ Apple 5.25 Disk Drive Brand New in Sealed Static Bag http://www.auctionworks.com/cgi-win/bid.exe?SITEID=WORKS+ACTION=VIEW+LOT=150+ Apple IIC Computer http://www.auctionworks.com/cgi-win/bid.exe?SITEID=WORKS+ACTION=VIEW+LOT=113+ Thanks for reading, Greg From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 7 11:23:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: PDP as a home computer - Acid Test. I LOST ALL MY STUFF! In-Reply-To: <33C116B9.1DB@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: Time to put my PDP=home computer to the acid test! My parents came to the decision that I had too much computer stuff, and it ALL had to go. I talked them into letting me keep one computer. So here's the choice: My 486 or the PDP? Obviously, I kept the PDP. The 486 is staying with my C64 and the CoCo at a friend's house until we find storage. Until then, I get to use the PDP has a home computer! We'll see how this works out. First priority is getting it to boot an OS... Anyoone have a V7 RX02 image? From scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu Mon Jul 7 11:47:43 1997 From: scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Yes, I shall burn in the fyres of Hades... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970624085406.009ab660@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > From: Roger Merchberger > > Yes, I finally got the fever for the flavor of a Pringles -- Dooh! I mean, > the fever to spark up my CP/M machine... despite everyone & their brother > telling me to check the PSU first. > > It is *not* a Heath/Zenith machine.... It states simply on the front: > Heathkit Computer. No nuthin' else. On the back, I found the Serial# and > the number: > > H-120-1. > > I'm assuming this is the model number. It is. > It has two floppy drives (one of > which the garage door is broken on) a full keyboard (which works fine, but > is slightly sticky...) and an internal green 11" diag. mono monitor. You've got an "All-in-one" Heath 100, more commonly known as a Z100. There are several achive sites for software for the unit, you'd need to do an altavista or archie search to find them (memory's way too sloppy, haven't played with the Z for a few years.) The H-121-1 version is the one that looks like an oversized apple ][. > Something tickled in my brain about those floppies, so as I lumbered around > in the dark in my newly-begun clean-ish basement (Eeeeek!) I found my old > non-working Atari 810 disk drive... and the mechs looked almost exact! > Would these happen to be the same mechanically, would anyone know? Probably not, the Z (or H) used standard SA-455? 360K ibm pc style drives > > Also, as there was no paperwork for this, so even the most basic, > rudimentary info on this unit would be helpful... such as: which drive is > the boot drive? Top or bottom? Top, I think. (I have one, but I only got it for the Winchester drive card). > > When I sparked it up, everything seemed to work, the tube came to life, and > greeted me with a finger pointing to the right in the upper-left corner... > and stayed there. Every key sequence I tried resulted in a "Beep" except > which, of course, reset the machine and re-greeted me with > the finger. That is the monitor rom, and certain keys should do something more interesting, like C - color bars (if you have color video, otherwise b&w bars) B - boot prompt, pressing the right combo of numbers and fkeys selects the boot drive. D - dump memory ... and several more > BTW, I (of course) would be in the market for a set of boot disks for this > beastie... It will boot off of CP/M, MP/M, UCSD P-System, Concurrent CP/M, MS-DOS and others. If you find a generic version 1 or maybe 2 ms-dos it might boot, pc specific PC dos won't. The machine has an 8088 and an 8085 processor, and uses the appropriate one for the os in question. I'm not sure what the licensing requirements are, however, I do have several OS's for the machine - I'm sure something can be worked out. > > Thanks one and all, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger You're welcome, pity I'm so far behind in the mail... -stacy -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Mon Jul 7 12:39:33 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Hi all, I just acquired an Epson PX-8, minus documentation of course, and I need some help. Questions: - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? Or better yet, a PX8-to-PC wiring diagram? (Digi-Key appears to have the plug, part # CP-2080-ND for $1.22 - 800-344-4539) - Can I connect a floppy drive to the 50-pin connector? If so, what specs does it expect? - I assume the SP OUT connector is for a speaker; what are the A/D IN and BRCD connectors for? - Anyone have a spare PX-8 keyboard protector shell they want to sell/trade? Any other info appreciated, thanks Kai From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jul 7 13:34:58 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > I just acquired an Epson PX-8, minus documentation of course, and I need > some help. > Cool machine. I have 2. > Questions: > > - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? Or better yet, a PX8-to-PC wiring > diagram? > (Digi-Key appears to have the plug, part # CP-2080-ND for $1.22 - > 800-344-4539) > I don't have this information with me. See below. > - Can I connect a floppy drive to the 50-pin connector? If so, what > specs does it expect? > No. The floppy drive connects the the serial DIN. The only drive of which I am aware which works is the Epson PF-10. It is pretty rare. > - I assume the SP OUT connector is for a speaker; what are the A/D IN > and BRCD connectors for? A/D = Analog to Digital BRCD = Barcode reader > > - Anyone have a spare PX-8 keyboard protector shell they want to > sell/trade? > > Any other info appreciated, > I have photocopies of two of the manuals. I am missing some pages which are on their way to me. I plan to make a few sets of copies when the pages arrive. Anyone who is interested in copies let me know. A while back I did a dejanews search on px-8, Epson Geneva, it turned up a good deal of information including pinouts for most if not all of the ports. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Jul 7 14:36:17 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33C14531.5B31@xlisper.mv.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? 1 - GND 2 - TxD 3 - RxD 4 - RTS 5 - CTS 6 - DSR 7 - DTR 8 - DCD -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 7 14:35:52 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Interesting. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: An anagram of decsystem-ten is "decent system" Found that on a webpage. From BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu Mon Jul 7 16:11:46 1997 From: BROBSTONA at wartburg.edu (Andy Brobston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Aquarius USR() Message-ID: <970707161146.22e0f62b@wartburg.edu> When I first got my Mattel Aquarius some thirteen years ago, I remember going through the owner's manual, typing in all the programs and all that. The manual documented the USR() function as something to execute machine language, which was "beyond the scope of the manual." I looked for probably three years (until I got my Apple IIgs and lost interest) for info on "machine code." The only place I knew to look was the public library, which, of course, had nothing. Does anyone know more about this? I don't have my Aquarius where I'm living right now to play with, unfortunately. -- Andy Brobston brobstona@wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 7 16:52:30 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 Message-ID: <2291@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33C14531.5B31@xlisper.mv.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > - What is the RS-232 DIN plug pinout? > > 1 - GND > 2 - TxD > 3 - RxD > 4 - RTS > 5 - CTS > 6 - DSR > 7 - DTR > 8 - DCD That's certainly the HX20 pinout, and it's very sensibly arranged. Any DIN plug that will physically fit into the socket picks up a useful set of signals. A 3-pin plug picks up ground and both data signals 5-pin adds RTS and CTS 7-pin adds DTR and DSR and 8-pin adds DCD The later Epsons like my PX4 used a mini-DIN, alas, where you can't play tricks like this. > > -- > David Betz -tony From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 7 16:54:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Panasonic HHC Message-ID: To anyone who's sent me e-mail to be put down on the list for an HHC, if your mail bounced then please post it publicly here on the discussion group, and everyone excuse these people in advance. My service provider seems to think customer service is a joke to be played on its customers. I'll be switching to a provider which can handle the mundane task of exchanging e-mail. Note to the wise: stay away from CRL Network Services. Everyone else, if your mail did not bounce, do not send another request. I have your request saved, I just did not respond to you. I will be compiling a list tonight and will post it so you know if your request has been received. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 7 17:13:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Epson PX-8 In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > - Can I connect a floppy drive to the 50-pin connector? If so, what > specs does it expect? It only takes, as far as I know, a proprietary portable, battery-operated drive. > - I assume the SP OUT connector is for a speaker; what are the A/D IN > and BRCD connectors for? BRCD = barcode...you could get a barcode wand for it. This machine had applications in warehouses for inventory control. A/D I believe is just what it seems to be: an analog-digital input. > - Anyone have a spare PX-8 keyboard protector shell they want to > sell/trade? Nope. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 7 17:23:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Aquarius USR() In-Reply-To: <970707161146.22e0f62b@wartburg.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Andy Brobston wrote: > When I first got my Mattel Aquarius some thirteen years ago, I > remember going through the owner's manual, typing in all the programs > and all that. The manual documented the USR() function as something to > execute machine language, which was "beyond the scope of the manual." > I looked for probably three years (until I got my Apple IIgs and lost > interest) for info on "machine code." The only place I knew to look > was the public library, which, of course, had nothing. > > Does anyone know more about this? I don't have my Aquarius where I'm > living right now to play with, unfortunately. Basically, you'd poke in Z-80 assembler code and then use the USR() function to execute it. I followed the same path you did, and alas never did search beyond the scope of the manual to do assembly. It wasn't until I got my Apple ][ that I learned 6502 assembly. You'd probably need some systems manuals for the Aquarius to do anything useful on it, and I don't think Mattel ever had anything like that publicly available. Speaking of Aquarius, yesterday I had the pleasure of rooting around in Doug Coward's collection, which I must say is incredible. He has computers that I never even knew existed, plus lots of rare games machines and peripherals and stuff. I think on of the rarest items he has is an Aquarius Compact Disk Drive. I thought it was never supposed to be released, but there it is, sitting on one of Doug's shelves. It's a big sucker, about 8" x 8" by 2.5". Just amazing. It seems to have used the Compact floppy disks which looked like a 3.5" but were rectangular in shape (longer than it is wide). Doug, scan that in and put it in your museum! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Mon Jul 7 19:53:31 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies In-Reply-To: <199707071039.FAA02527@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons that > lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent > network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch > programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I > recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do make > a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to find > it. That'd be the one. It has an OS installed; with the CPU I also picked up a QIC unit, 10 meg disk/floppy unit, a 'disk expansion' unit of unknown size (I'm short one power supply), and a GC-001 graphics unit, as well as boxes of QIC tapes and 360k floppies. The OS is installed along with lots of other stuff of unknown purpose on the hard disk/floppy box. It boots fine; I can play a little with it, but I really don't know what's there. I'm able to get file listings of [sys] which I'm assuming is the hard disk. I wish there'd been an operator's manual in the lot.. ok -r From danjo at xnet.com Mon Jul 7 22:23:15 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: PDP as a home computer - Acid Test. I LOST ALL MY STUFF! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Time to put my PDP=home computer to the acid test! > My parents came to the decision that I had too much computer stuff, and > it ALL had to go. I talked them into letting me keep one computer. So > here's the choice: My 486 or the PDP? Hey - I'll take that 486 8-) [Aside - I missed the VAX frame by 35 minutes 8-( Now I can't pick it up until August! Glad in a way - if your parents saw it - they'ld shit a brick - at least that's what we used to say in the good ol' days 8-) Of course that means I missed the RL02 drive as well 8-( ] > Obviously, I kept the PDP. The 486 is staying with my C64 and the CoCo > at a friend's house until we find storage. Until then, I get to use the > PDP has a home computer! We'll see how this works out. First priority > is getting it to boot an OS... Anyoone have a V7 RX02 image? I don't think V7 would fit on a RX02 - maybe an RL02. What you probably want is RT-11. Single user but with Foreground/Background tasking. Or you could try TSX? which is a multi-user RT-11 kinda sort of 8-) I have heard of but not seen one of these. Email me if you decide what you want. [Another aside - you heard from Galesburg yet? Nothing on my end 8-( Once we get you a case, you can just hide the 486 inside and tell *them* its a terminal 8-) ] BC From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 7 23:04:59 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: PDP as a home computer - Acid Test. I LOST ALL MY STUFF! Message-ID: <199707080404.AA06782@world.std.com> > X-Sender: danjo@typhoon > I don't think V7 would fit on a RX02 - maybe an RL02. What you probabl the miniroot would. Rl02(10mb) is more like it. Also V7 requires I&D space so the cpu had better by 11/73 or higher. IF 11/23 then use V5 or V6. > want is RT-11. Single user but with Foreground/Background tasking. Or > you could try TSX? which is a multi-user RT-11 kinda sort of 8-) I have RSTS-11 multitasking/timesharing. Or RSX-11 real time multitasking. Myself RT-11FB is my favorite as it's compact and can run off a rx02 and fast. Allison From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 8 01:06:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: <199707080212.TAA19813@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I assume other people are having the same problem of this host spewing forth duplicate posts? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jul 8 02:19:49 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: IBM PC Radio 9075 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970708002401.3ed72886@mail.crl.com> This weekend I picked up two IBM PC Radio laptops (numbered #9075). Anyone know anything about them? They came with no PS and the batteries are (of course) dead. They're nifty little machines, with a built-in ~adding-machine-sized printer, a connection for an antenna (at least, that's what it looks like) and a PCMCIA-ish slot. Any info would be greatly appreciated, as well as leads on finding a power supply or two. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 7 18:34:36 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08-Jul-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I assume other people are having the same problem of this host spewing >forth duplicate posts? Yep..doing so here as well Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 8 03:23:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: current HHC count Message-ID: Here is the current list I have of the Panasonic HHC buyout... Name Qty ----------------- --- Sam Ismail 4 Allison Parent 3 Jeff Hellige 2 Kelly Fergason 3 Gary Tucker 2 Roger Sinasohn 5 Ward Griffiths 3 Ben Coakley 1 Paul Coad 2 Jim Willing 3 Richard Cini 3 Hans Pufal 2 Doug Spence 3 John Ott 1 Bob Withers 2 Frank Peseckis 2 Roger Merchberger 3 (or up to 10! what a guy!) ursa@idir.net 4 Richard Schauer 2 Brian Stuart 3 Jeff Lodoen 1 Scott Ware 3 SUPRDAVE@aol.com 1 James Rice 3 Benedict Chong 2 Kirk Scott 2 Kirk (dynasoar) 2 Current Total: 66 If your name isn't on here, please e-mail me with how many you want. If your e-mail bounces, post your request publicly. If you want to add to your count, let me know. I will be sending the final total to Mike on Friday, so I will take requests up until sometime Friday when I fire off an e-mail to him. At that point I will try to cut a deal. I'm hoping for 100. Nobody will pay more than $10 per. If we get to 100 it should go down to $9 per. Remember...manuals, power supplies, ROM chips, custom RAM expander tray, some carrying cases. Features thermal printer, FORTH-like language in ROM, QWERTY keyboard. If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, ask for details. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jordicr at eic.ictnet.es Tue Jul 8 03:36:15 1997 From: jordicr at eic.ictnet.es (Jordi Carceller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <19970708083816.AAB13835@default> I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? Does any Winsock exist? Which is the best software for MAIL and WWW? (using a 286, of course) Greetings, Jordi Carceller jordicr@eic.ictnet.es From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 8 05:33:21 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: <199707081031.FAA24274@challenge.sunflower.com> Okay, [SyS][sys] is the first hard disk, then d1, d2 d3 etc It was strictly an office automation machine, usually it came with Document designer, Office spreadsheet and Bmail. When it boots, it has a bunch of dots run across the screen, seems to me at this point it tells you the software license. The licenses are, standalone, 5user, 10 user, 25 user and 48 user. These machines had the networking built in. There are two RS422 ports on the side, you can put 24 machines in a daisey chain on each side. There is a surplus store here with buttloads of them and no one wants them because they don't know what they are. These boxes are INtel based, but propriatary as hell. There is a DOS emulator available or was. Unissys currently owns this platform as of 1986, before then it was sperry, and then your model convergent, allthough convergent still made alot of the hardware under subcontract. If you ask me more specific questions I can probably remember more. It's been 5 years since I even touched one. ---------- > From: Ray Stricklin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Help with Convergent Technologies > Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 7:53 PM > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > > > Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons that > > lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent > > network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch > > programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I > > recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do make > > a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to find > > it. > > That'd be the one. > > It has an OS installed; with the CPU I also picked up a QIC unit, 10 meg > disk/floppy unit, a 'disk expansion' unit of unknown size (I'm short one > power supply), and a GC-001 graphics unit, as well as boxes of QIC tapes > and 360k floppies. The OS is installed along with lots of other stuff of > unknown purpose on the hard disk/floppy box. It boots fine; I can play a > little with it, but I really don't know what's there. > > I'm able to get file listings of [sys] which I'm assuming is the hard > disk. > > I wish there'd been an operator's manual in the lot.. > > ok > -r From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 8 08:26:04 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Help with Convergent Technologies Message-ID: <199707081322.IAA27449@challenge.sunflower.com> Oh and the floppy drives are f0, f1 etc. I think a question mark an the Command? prompt will give you more commands, What version of Ctos is it? ---------- > From: thedm > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Help with Convergent Technologies > Date: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 5:33 AM > > Okay, [SyS][sys] is the first hard disk, then d1, d2 d3 etc > It was strictly an office automation machine, usually it came with Document > designer, Office spreadsheet and Bmail. When it boots, it has a bunch of > dots run across the screen, seems to me at this point it tells you the > software license. The licenses are, standalone, 5user, 10 user, 25 user and > 48 user. These machines had the networking built in. There are two RS422 > ports on the side, you can put 24 machines in a daisey chain on each side. > There is a surplus store here with buttloads of them and no one wants them > because they don't know what they are. These boxes are INtel based, but > propriatary as hell. There is a DOS emulator available or was. Unissys > currently owns this platform as of 1986, before then it was sperry, and > then your model convergent, allthough convergent still made alot of the > hardware under subcontract. If you ask me more specific questions I can > probably remember more. It's been 5 years since I even touched one. > > ---------- > > From: Ray Stricklin > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: Re: Help with Convergent Technologies > > Date: Monday, July 07, 1997 7:53 PM > > > > On Mon, 7 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > > > > > Is this a little square box cpu with a buss on the side? and ad ons > that > > > lock onto the side of it? If it is I used to administer a Convergent > > > network, it uses the BTOS/CTOS operating system and uses JCL for batch > > > programming. Its almost useless with out the native software and if I > > > recall our licenses where about 10,000 for a 48 user network. They do > make > > > a standalone version, but I'll be darned if i would ever know where to > find > > > it. > > > > That'd be the one. > > > > It has an OS installed; with the CPU I also picked up a QIC unit, 10 meg > > disk/floppy unit, a 'disk expansion' unit of unknown size (I'm short one > > power supply), and a GC-001 graphics unit, as well as boxes of QIC tapes > > and 360k floppies. The OS is installed along with lots of other stuff of > > unknown purpose on the hard disk/floppy box. It boots fine; I can play a > > little with it, but I really don't know what's there. > > > > I'm able to get file listings of [sys] which I'm assuming is the > hard > > disk. > > > > I wish there'd been an operator's manual in the lot.. > > > > ok > > -r From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 08:27:20 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: <199707080535.WAA04648@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: > [Another aside - you heard from Galesburg yet? Nothing on my end 8-( Once > we get you a case, you can just hide the 486 inside and tell *them* its a > terminal 8-) ] That was the idea. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 08:31:54 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: SMTP import error #-5 In-Reply-To: <199707080535.WAA04648@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 0 xxx 1980 MAILER-DAEMON@nwohio.nwohio.com wrote: > > here's the choice: My 486 or the PDP? > > Hey - I'll take that 486 8-) But it would be a LOT harder to get another PDP than another 486. > I don't think V7 would fit on a RX02 - maybe an RL02. What you probably > want is RT-11. Single user but with Foreground/Background tasking. Or > you could try TSX? which is a multi-user RT-11 kinda sort of 8-) I have > heard of but not seen one of these. Email me if you decide what you want. Hmm... There's an RX02 boot though. Maybe it could boot of seperate root/boot disks like Linux does? Of course, I can't build kernels as I have no source, so that goes in the can. Basically, anything multi-user would be cool, and TCP/IP would be a nice trick. BTW, which Unix was first to have TCP/IP? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 08:35:14 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 In-Reply-To: <199707080535.WAA04648@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: I found a picture of another M8186 on the internet. It has one chip on it, the CPU (Dual chips on a single carrier). The other 3 sockets are blank. Mine has 2 chips. CPU BLANK BLANK CHIP. I don't have the M8186 in front of me, but does anyone know what the extra chip is for? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 8 10:56:41 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 8, 97 08:35:14 am Message-ID: <9707081456.AA06610@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970708/a1f26b76/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 8 10:13:17 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 Message-ID: <199707081513.AA12251@world.std.com> > I found a picture of another M8186 on the internet. It has one chip on > it, the CPU (Dual chips on a single carrier). The other 3 sockets are > blank. Mine has 2 chips. CPU BLANK BLANK CHIP. I don't have the M818 > in front of me, but does anyone know what the extra chip is for? FRom the edge of the board in toward the middle its MMU, spare, floatingpoint, data/control. A minimal board will have data/control double as that's the F11 cpu. It will only be a 16 bit address. The MMU is was nearly standard and gave 18/22 bit addressing. Floating point was in two forms FIS chip, Floatingpoint Instruction Set which were microcode for floating point instructions or the M8188 module that actually did floating point in hardware (2901s!). Other options are the CIS or Commercial instruction set (aka cobal instruction set) and there was writeable control store if you wanted to write custom microcode for things like bitblting or emulation. The 11/23 did not have I&D space like the later J-11 cpus. The liniage for chip-11s is LSI11/03 (kd11-f quad width), LSI-11/2 (dual width KD-11), LSI-11/23a (KDF-11A dual width), LSI11/23b(+) (KDF-11B quad width), Then J-11 series. Note while the books said the 11/23a (kdf-11a) was 18 bit I have found many will operate as 22 bit. The KDF-11b was 22 bit addressing. Allison From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Jul 8 10:30:52 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <970708112911_-1461085685@emout03.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-08 09:35:55 EDT, you write: jordi carceller wrote: << I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? Does any Winsock exist? Which is the best software for MAIL and WWW? (using a 286, of course) Greetings, Jordi Carceller jordicr@eic.ictnet.es >> there is a program out in the shareware world called nettamer which will let you do mail and text only web browsing. i plan to use it on my ps2 model 30 just to say i did it. david From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 8 10:39:31 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Extra chip on M8186 Message-ID: <199707081539.AA06906@world.std.com> > The Floating Point socket will take either a KEF11-AA chip which > holds floating point microcode, or you can plug a FPF11 board in next > to the CPU and run the jumper cable to the socket. The FPF11 is > 5 to 6 times faster than a KEF11-AA (and was accordingly more expensive I have machines with both and the difference is noticeable even with fairly simple stuff. > I think a Commercial Instruction Set (CIS) microcode option may have be > available as well, but I've never seen it installed. I'd guess it > would've plugged into the "Spare" socket. My 11/23b(+) has the CIS and FPP board. The CIS goes into spare. Allison From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 12:05:13 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Amiga32? What's this? In-Reply-To: <199707081539.AA06906@world.std.com> Message-ID: I was reading some old videogame magazines for console games, and found an ad for something from Commodore called the Amiga32. It's a nice-looking unit, with a CD-ROM on top. Anyone know what it is? PS: There's some amiga in the junk-parts section of our place here. I'm gonna snag it given the first chance. But it has no disks or power supply. There's a 3 1/2 in the side of it. All that's there is the unit itself. Would it be worth it? And would it need a bootdisk? From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 8 12:38:04 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: Amiga32? What's this? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACA7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> > ---------- > From: Daniel A. > Seagraves[SMTP:dseagrav@bsdserver.tek-star.net] > I was reading some old videogame magazines for console games, and > found > an ad for something from Commodore called the Amiga32. It's a > nice-looking unit, with a CD-ROM on top. Anyone know what it is? > It's called a CD32. It's basically an Amiga 600 minus keyboard, in a one-piece unit similar to a PlayStation/Saturn. It was intended to compete with those entertainment consoles. Not a bad concept; there was a lot of Amiga game software available and it was simple to port to CD32 -- just remove any dependency on a full keyboard. Unfortunately it came along just before Commodore went under, and was never really marketed in the US. It was a decent success in Europe. > PS: There's some amiga in the junk-parts section of our place here. > I'm > gonna snag it given the first chance. But it has no disks or power > supply. There's a 3 1/2 in the side of it. All that's there is the > unit > itself. Would it be worth it? And would it need a bootdisk? > Sounds like an Amiga 500. You'd need a power supply and boot disk. The Amiga 500 power supply looks just like a Commodore 128 power supply, except the Amiga version has an on/off switch. It can use a TV as a monitor, but only in B&W. An RGB monitor is required for color. Amiga 500's go for surprisingly little money -- like $75 for a complete system -- so don't spend much on a PS. If it turns out to be dead, I need an internal floppy drive for mine... Kai From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Tue Jul 8 12:58:03 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:12 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <97Jul8.111605pdt.32257@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> Jordi Carceller (jordicr@eic.ictnet.es) wrote: >I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? > >Does any Winsock exist? > >Which is the best software for MAIL and WWW? (using a 286, of course) Sort of in the spirit of this list, I set up this configuration for Internet e-mail: - 8 MHz 80286 AT clone desktop - 4 Meg RAM (all the SIP sockets are filled) - 20 Meg Seagate ST-225 MFM hard disk (C) - 30 Meg Seagate ST-238R RLL hard disk (D) running from its own RLL controller stolen from an XT clone my brother-in-law tossed my way. I had a lot of fun getting it to work in the AT clone. - Trident super VGA video - DOS 6, Windows 3.1 (barely fits on C). - older Trumpet Winsock (version 2.something) - Eudora e-mail (was using version 1.44, now using Eudora Light version 3.01 which is slower, but has a feature I needed that 1.44 didn't have). - 2400 bps US Robotics Courier external modem (that I paid $700 for new in 1985!) With this, we can do e-mail, and text-based internet stuff (I've got Windows telnet and ftp programs as well), but graphic web browsing is out (they all require a 386 or better). I haven't found a text, Windows-based web browser. I've also used Nettamer. It is a DOS-based internet package. To run internet stuff in DOS, you usually need to put together several pieces of software: TCP/IP, PPP or SLIP dialler, packet drivers, etc. Nettamer does all this in one package and does e-mail, ftp, telnet, Usenet, and web browsing. Web browsing is basically text-only, but you can view graphics with an included viewer if you've got a VGA display. The version I tried (1.07) doesn't do frames or image-maps, and forms are a bit brutal. For example, I've used the Altavista search form with it, but I'd probably be pretty confused if I hadn't used the form in Netscape on another computer beforehand. You should be able to find Nettamer on Simtelnet and other software archives. So, you will probably want to use Nettamer instead of the Windows route unless: - you've got a decent amount of RAM (4 meg was quite a lot for a 286) - you've got enough hard disk space - you have to have a GUI. Right now, we just use the e-mail, when we absolutely have to have graphic web browsing, we'll buy a new Pentium machine. Or maybe I'll find a 386 motherboard for free... Hope this helps, Clark Geisler From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jul 8 13:06:40 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <01IKZRSDUA5EAONREO@cc.usu.edu> > Sort of in the spirit of this list, I set up this configuration for > Internet > e-mail: > > - 8 MHz 80286 AT clone desktop [[[ snip ]]] > With this, we can do e-mail, and text-based internet stuff (I've got > Windows telnet and ftp programs as well), but graphic web browsing > is out (they all require a 386 or better). Have you taken a look at Arachne? I've not run it on anything but my trusty office 486 yet, but it claims to be able to run on anything PCish. http://www.naf.cz/arachne/ It's also being distributed by Caldera as WebSpyder http://www.caldera.com/ Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 13:07:23 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: old 80286 In-Reply-To: <97Jul8.111605pdt.32257@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jul 1997 clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com wrote: > Or maybe I'll find a 386 motherboard for free... I'd give you my Laser 386, but it caught fire. Don't ever plug a serial port in backwards, and plug a null modem cable into a friends (Much more expensive!) Packard Bell! (The PB survived minus an add-on COM2: card, my 386 lost it's serial, paralell, HDD & FDD controllers, so it's useless for much more than a terminal) From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Tue Jul 8 13:27:50 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <97Jul8.114559pdt.32263@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> IVIE@cc.usu.edu wrote: > I wrote: >> Sort of in the spirit of this list, I set up this configuration for >> Internet >> e-mail: >> >> - 8 MHz 80286 AT clone desktop >[[[ snip ]]] >> With this, we can do e-mail, and text-based internet stuff (I've got >> Windows telnet and ftp programs as well), but graphic web browsing >> is out (they all require a 386 or better). > >Have you taken a look at Arachne? I've not run it on anything but my >trusty office 486 yet, but it claims to be able to run on anything >PCish. Yes, I looked at, but didn't try out Arachne. It's documentation said you had to have a 386 to do graphical stuff. Might be a better text web browser than Nettamer, though. Clark. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 8 09:53:51 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Amiga32? What's this? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACA7@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <199707081853.OAA03183@mail.cgocable.net> > > From: Daniel A. > > Seagraves[SMTP:dseagrav@bsdserver.tek-star.net] > > I was reading some old videogame magazines for console games, and > > found > > an ad for something from Commodore called the Amiga32. It's a > > nice-looking unit, with a CD-ROM on top. Anyone know what it is? > > > It's called a CD32. It's basically an Amiga 600 minus keyboard, in a > one-piece unit similar to a PlayStation/Saturn. It was intended to > compete with those entertainment consoles. Not a bad concept; there was > a lot of Amiga game software available and it was simple to port to CD32 > -- just remove any dependency on a full keyboard. Unfortunately it came > along just before Commodore went under, and was never really marketed in > the US. It was a decent success in Europe. > > > PS: There's some amiga in the junk-parts section of our place here. > > I'm > > gonna snag it given the first chance. But it has no disks or power > > supply. There's a 3 1/2 in the side of it. All that's there is the > > unit > > itself. Would it be worth it? And would it need a bootdisk? > > > Sounds like an Amiga 500. You'd need a power supply and boot disk. The > Amiga 500 power supply looks just like a Commodore 128 power supply, > except the Amiga version has an on/off switch. It can use a TV as a > monitor, but only in B&W. An RGB monitor is required for color. > > Amiga 500's go for surprisingly little money -- like $75 for a complete > system -- so don't spend much on a PS. > > If it turns out to be dead, I need an internal floppy drive for mine... > > Kai Amiga 500/2000 is same on most of chipset but Amiga does not have slots and standard 1mb but you can add a clock/512k module to it from underside of this amiga 500. The "slot" is via left side to "sidecars" modules. There is aftermarket that sells complete tower kit and all circuit boards, lots of adapters to refit 500 boards into tower cases provided and make it more of a 2000 models. Neat! Better yet, these are most repair friendly lots of them allows you to swap socketed chips. But problem is 500 chips are easy to destroy because of less buffered i/o ports and these chips are hard to get by now. :( Wished there was alterative chip makers that makes these in CMOS instead of hotter NMOS chips. Funny, the pinouts for the pc floppy drives and amiga drives is very similar but still figuring out how to make it 100% compatiable... sigh! (tried that on 500 with a pc 720k drive, that works but not quite there...) Jason D. From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:11:35 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C752@consulting.ensemble.net> > Does anyone remember this machine : > > it's a video game console (like the atari VCS) but which could sit on > a box which then converts it to a home computer. > > The machine ran on a 6800 and had built-in basic. > > It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series > (78-79?) > > I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was > "imagination machine". > > > Ben > > Ahh, the "APF Imagination Machine" I believe. Somewhere I have a > single cartridge for it. > > -Mp From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 14:07:29 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Amiga in the back In-Reply-To: <199707081853.OAA03183@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: It's a model 500. No disks or PS. And the PS plug looks real funny. I'm going to look in the junk box and see if there's a PS in there. According to the sticker on the bottom, it uses a normal 5v/12v supply. From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Tue Jul 8 14:11:53 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Banning People From the List Message-ID: OK. I've been away this weekend for the funeral of my grandfather who passed away last week. I was thrilled to come back and find my mailbox filled with threads dealing with personal disputes (much was thankfully kept off the list). I cannot continue to run this list if I have to constantly mediate situations in which adults are acting childishly. Therefore I am instituting the 1 warning rule: If you post something insulting/immature/inflammatory and I receive a complaint you will receive a warning. If you then do so again within a months time I will eject you. Please do not follow up on this message to the list. If you need to follow up send me personal mail. If you have important comments regarding this rule that you feel I am censoring send me a copy of the message and I will make it available to list members. If you follow up to this to the list regarding its unfairness consider that your warning for this month. ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw PS. I _really_ did not want to have to do this. From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:17:16 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: which month? Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C753@consulting.ensemble.net> The name of the book was something like that, I'll have to dig it up.. -Mp > -----Original Message----- > From: Cord Coslor [SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 1997 10:11 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: which month? > > What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? > Like, > To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? > > Curious to know. > > Thanks, > > CORD > > //*=================================================================== > ==++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, > NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu > 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector > || > || Autograph collector > || > ++==================================================================== > =*// > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a > large > > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the > first > > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first > months > > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first > week > > or two). > > -Mp > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: bwit@pobox.com [SMTP:bwit@pobox.com] > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 11:51 AM > > > To: 'classiccmp@u.washington.edu' > > > Subject: RE: which month? > > > > > > > > > IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. > > > > > > ---------- > > > From: e.tedeschi > > > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM > > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > > > Subject: which month? > > > > > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction > > > of the > > > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > > > > > a) the Apple II > > > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > > > c) the Commodore Pet > > > > > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am > > > researching > > > for. > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > enrico > > > -- > > > ================================================================ > > > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > > > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > > > website > > > ================================================================ > > > visit Brighton: > > > > > > > > From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:21:22 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C754@consulting.ensemble.net> > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > system... > > Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 > carts. > > Larry Anderson > > We've reverse enginnered the encryption. I forget the specifics: It > was some sort of Public + Private key deal. The key size was 120 > *bytes* Not all of a cartridge needs to be encrypted (as little as > 4K can be encrypted). Massive overkill for the time. No one has > reported finding the keys yet. Probably never will. > > -Mp From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:22:07 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C755@consulting.ensemble.net> > > Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 > > carts. > > > > Actually, I seem to recall that a guy in rec.games.video.classic has > figured it out, but there hasn't been any practical application of it > yet. But I haven't read r.g.v.c in a LONG time, so things may have > changed... > > I wish I could remember his name... he was one of the big cheese > techie > types in the newsgroup that was always hacking up weird stuff, so I > don't > doubt that he did it. > ------- > > My good friend, Bruce Tomlin, was the person who did that. > > -Mp From MPritchard at ensemble.net Tue Jul 8 14:23:15 1997 From: MPritchard at ensemble.net (Matt Pritchard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Encryptor Board... Message-ID: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C756@consulting.ensemble.net> The 7800 is actually '83 or '84 developed. A small number were sold then, and the rest sat in warehouses for a couple years. seriously! -Mp > -----Original Message----- > From: Sam Ismail [SMTP:dastar@crl.com] > Sent: Sunday, June 29, 1997 6:06 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Encryptor Board... > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > > > > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" > square > > > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's > hiding] > > NOTE: The description above is of two, separate cards. > > > I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are > > encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games > get > > access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just > gets > > 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get > a > > share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be > a > > slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game > > system... > > Hmmm. Interesting hypothesis. However, these boards are circa 1983, > while the 7800 is circa 1986 or something. > > I'll go repost a request for info on the atari newsgroups. > > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, > Writer, Jackass From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 8 14:33:23 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Emulex QD21 In-Reply-To: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C755@consulting.ensemble.net> Message-ID: I got an edsi drive, and a PS for it. Anyone know how to get the LSI11 menus for it? I had it written down, but I lost the paper. (Someone cleaned my desk!), Also, does V7 have an MSCP driver? What O/Ses do? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 8 18:53:48 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers References: Message-ID: <33C2D30C.14EB@rain.org> Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. Description Model Serial # Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 From sinasohn at crl.com Tue Jul 8 20:19:21 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: old 80286 Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970708182006.3c4fbf62@ricochet.net> At 11:30 AM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote: ><< I have a LAPTOP 80286. Can I connect to INTERNET with it? > Does any Winsock exist? >there is a program out in the shareware world called nettamer which will let >you do mail and text only web browsing. i plan to use it on my ps2 model 30 There is also a program called "Arachne" which does graphical web browsing under DOS. (I use it when working on web pages under DOS -- far more efficient and faster than loading windoze and using a windows editor!) I believe it also works with some TCP/IP stack for DOS, but I've not really looked into that. P.S. the NetTamer home page is at and there's a whole passel of DOS Browser/etc. info at . Hope this helps! P.P.S. you can, of course, use a shell account with pine, tin, lynx, etc. with just about any computer that can hook up to a modem. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 8 21:43:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Emulex QD21 In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 8, 97 02:33:23 pm Message-ID: <9707090143.AA09877@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 704 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970708/64eae613/attachment-0001.ksh From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jul 8 20:59:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: c-16 and Plus/4 In-Reply-To: <33C2D30C.14EB@rain.org> Message-ID: I remember seeing a post here a week or two ago asking about the availability of Commodore 16 and Plus/4 cartridges. I response, I gathered, was that they were not very common here in teh United States, and seemed just altogether uncommon.... maybe even some doubt as to the actual number of titles created. Recently, I picked up my first c-16 / Plus/4 cart -- it was Scott Adams adventure game Strange Odyssey sold by Commodore. This titles was not mentioned by those on this listserv. Anyway, I also have a TON of other titles that I have been using for some time on my PC emulator called Minus/4. A very good emulator. So, I guess what I am finally getting at is it seems there actually WERE a lot of different titles created for these machines, though I do not know the actual numbers of titles, quantities, or popularity in the US. Could anyone out there fill us in on some facts? I just don't have the experience in these machines needed to accurately inform others. Finally, does anyone have a c-16 or Plus/4 machine for sale or trade. I just have this one cartridge, but I have a burning desire to acquire one or more of these machines. Please let me know. My two cents worth, CORD G. COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From transit at primenet.com Tue Jul 8 21:54:17 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote: > I see a number of references to people who get things at hamfests, > swapfests, and other amateur radio type events. As such, I was just > curious who out there has their amateur radio license. I have one and > my call is KE6HTS. I'm N6YMK, coded Tech. Sometimes I hit the TRW swapmeet in Manhattan Beach, last Sat. of each month, and find all sorts of old computers (mostly either old micros and the like.) From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Tue Jul 8 22:11:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Laser 50 ???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Howdy folks: Well, as I've posted a couple of times in the past, I am re-posting my interest in an old children's beginner computer called the Laser 50. I am seriously looking for one for my daughter. Not really a classic computer, although it is from about 1984, but still a fun little 'toy'. It is about the size of a small laptop, has BASIC on board, about 1.5 k expandable to something like 17 or 18 k, able to hook up a printer and/or cassette interface, and was created by V-tech who still make kids computers. PLEASE let me know if any of you have one of these things lying around, or know where I might be able to find one!! Thank you, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 8 22:12:59 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Hams who collect References: Message-ID: <33C301BB.287C@rain.org> Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > I'm N6YMK, coded Tech. > > Sometimes I hit the TRW swapmeet in Manhattan Beach, last Sat. of each > month, and find all sorts of old computers (mostly either old micros and > the like.) TRW is where I recently found the Xerox 820 and documentation. Other machines I have gotten down there include the APL/80, Tandy 6000, and several Wang computers. I'm generally down there every month and look for good deals. Unfortunately, I only see them a couple of times per year. One machine I would like to get (and have seen several times down there) is a Commodore portable of some sort. However what I am willing to pay and what people have been asking differ by quite a bit :). I've seen quite a few C-64s and some Radio Shack Model Is, but I have enough of them and have turned them down. The Heathkit H-8 I just got was at the CMRA swapmeet held at Devry on (I think) the third Saturday of the month. If you are down sat the TRW swap meet, give me a call as either I or some friends monitor 146.790 simplex (output frequency of a Santa Barbara local repeater.) Marvin, KE6HTS From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jul 8 22:29:25 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Micro-Expander Model 1 S100 system In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A local used computer store is moving. Fortunately, they have been marking their cast off equipment as free and placing it on a table outside the store instead of tossing it in the dumpster. Tonight, I rode by the store on my way home from work and saw an interesting system - a Micro-Expander Model 1. Of course, I picked it up, along with a box of 8 inch floppy disks (apparently, RT11 versions 3 and 4.) I plan to return tomorrow during business hours to see if they have anything else of interest. Does anyone know anything about the Micro-Expander? Here's the information from the case: Expander Computer Model 1 Serial No. 1201522 Micro-Expander, Inc. Chicago, IL 60656 (incidentally, only about 5 miles from where it was found) The date codes on the chips are almost all in mid-1981. The main unit is a single piece about the size of a Processor Technology Sol. There is an external power supply, although the +5v and +12v regulators are located inside the main unit. The unit has a Z80 CPU and four S100 slots. The system board boasts 2 kbytes of SRAM (for the display?) , the CPU, a lot of 7400-series TTL, and two EPROMS marked "EXP MONITOR" and "SVENSKA BOKSTAVER" (Swedish ???? - possibly the character ROM?). The keyboard is in Swedish, and the unit was initially configured for PAL video, although that was easily changed by moving a DIP jumper block. Video output is (now) 80x24 composite NTSC, and there is a tape interface as well as RS-232 serial and parallel ports. Powering up the system brings up a monitor program. I'm assuming that this machine could run CP/M, given a few S100 cards with some RAM and a disk controller. Any other information? -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 8 23:33:21 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACAB@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> The Canonical List of Commodore Products doesn't go into serial number schemes... my 2001-8 is serial # 80684, no leading zeroes... could be a different numbering scheme entirely. Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin[SMTP:marvin@rain.org] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 4:53 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Pet Serial Numbers > > Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for > the > Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. > I > believe these both came from the local university at one of their > sales. > > Description Model Serial # > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 > From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 8 23:38:49 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Panasonic Handhelds Message-ID: This is the last call. On Friday I will be forwarding the final count to Mike. For the benefit of those who haven't seen this yet (and for those asking for more information) here is a casual spec of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers that we are about to get a bunch of: This computer came out around 1984. It was a handheld unit which featured: 6502 processor 8K RAM (the "top-of-the-line" model) 3 slots for 8K program EPROM on-board Custom built tray to hold 10 additional 8K EPROMS Tray also housed both computer and printer to make one compact unit Printer is 40-column thermal (paper can still be found allegedly) Full "QWERTY" keyboard FORTH-like language in ROM called "SNAP" Measures 9" x 3.5" Some manuals available Bunch of MCM 68674 8K EPROMs with programs on them AC Adaptor Now on to the original message. Instructions follow for reserving one, two or many for yourself. Read on. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail To: Classic Computer Discussion Subject: RE: Panasonic Handhelds PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1@aol.com To: dastar@crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar@crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about [2] days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Wed Jul 9 00:45:29 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers Message-ID: <199707090543.WAA29289@mx3.u.washington.edu> My PET 2001-8 is a 240V version and has serial number 1008669. There is also a hand texta number on the board itself 38658 ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Pet Serial Numbers > Date: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 9:53 AM > > Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the > Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I > believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. > > Description Model Serial # > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 From bcoakley at teleport.com Wed Jul 9 01:00:47 1997 From: bcoakley at teleport.com (Ben Coakley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Matchpoint? Message-ID: Browsing a local thrift, I found a box containing a "Matchpoint" card. Apparently it's a PC card which allows you to read Apple disks, via an ISA card and some software. Has anyone ever used one? Is it worth finding a 5 1/4" drive for my PeeCee? Also, does anybody have a spare Apple 25-pin-to-19-pin drive cable? (Or are all those pins supposed to be broken?) Thanks, -- Ben Coakley CBEL: Xavier OH bcoakley@teleport.com http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Wed Jul 9 01:27:39 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Pet Serial Numbers In-Reply-To: <33C2D30C.14EB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the > Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I > believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. > > Description Model Serial # > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0035117 > Commodore Pet Pet 2001-8 0037625 The two PETs in this house are 0014090 and 0020272. Both are PET 2001-8's, like yours, but only the first one has the chicklet keyboard and internal cassette unit. The other one has the full-size keyboard and the sharp corners of the metal case have been rounded. I don't know if this has been of any help. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jul 9 01:35:38 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Micro-Expander Model 1 S100 system In-Reply-To: Scott Ware's message of Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:29:25 -0500 (CDT) References: Message-ID: <199707090635.XAA09999@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Scott Ware writes: > The main unit is a single piece about the size of a Processor Technology > Sol. I believe this may be a Big Clue. Isn't the Expander one of the things that Lee Felsenstein designed between Processor Technology and Osborne? I also seem to remember that it was primarily marketed in Europe. Good catch! -Frank McConnell From jim at calico.litterbox.com Wed Jul 9 01:41:30 1997 From: jim at calico.litterbox.com (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: farewell Message-ID: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally Bill, please unsubscribe me. -- Jim Strickland jim@calico.litterbox.com -- "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them." -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 9 09:47:31 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Hams who collect In-Reply-To: References: <33AD8A32.12A7@rain.org> Message-ID: <32C9A6A01FA2@ifrsys.com> Charles P. Hobbs Wrote: > > I'm N6YMK, coded Tech. > > Sometimes I hit the TRW swapmeet in Manhattan Beach, last Sat. of each > month, and find all sorts of old computers (mostly either old micros and > the like.) > Gawd, how I miss that. I lived in LA for 12 years, and I think I got most of my best classic stuff from there. I also got burned pretty bad there too. Mostly on supposedly "good" disk drives. It got to the point where I *refused* to buy drives there. I remember once seeing a Pascal MicroEngine there! Although, that *was* in 1984 . . . Jeff KH6JJN From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 9 09:40:49 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... Message-ID: <33C3A2F1.41B6@xlisper.mv.com> I'm taking the following machines to the dump on Saturday. If anyone is within striking distance of Bedford, NH and wants any of these machines please let me know. TI-99/4a (doesn't work) A few TI cartridges and books Heathkit H-11 (works) Heathkit dual 8" disk drive unit (doesn't work) Vector V3-5036 S-100 system (works) Vector dual 5.25" disk drive unit (untested) VT-100 clone -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From visimp at junction.net Wed Jul 9 10:48:40 1997 From: visimp at junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: farewell In-Reply-To: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> References: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <19970709.074840.35@junction.net> In message <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> you wrote: > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. I asked over a week ago to unscribe me as well but it appears not to have been done. Today, after being away for a week, I have to weed through the chatter to find my important mail. Please unsubscribe me from this list. -- Lindsay Thachuk in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jul 9 11:18:49 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20571EA7D@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> David, or anyone who's going to drop by David's place... I'd pay for packing/shipping for any of the Heathkit or Vector equipment that others don't want to keep. Kai > ---------- > From: David Betz > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 1997 7:40 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... > > I'm taking the following machines to the dump on Saturday. If anyone > is > within striking distance of Bedford, NH and wants any of these > machines > please let me know. > > TI-99/4a (doesn't work) > A few TI cartridges and books > Heathkit H-11 (works) > Heathkit dual 8" disk drive unit (doesn't work) > Vector V3-5036 S-100 system (works) > Vector dual 5.25" disk drive unit (untested) > VT-100 clone > > -- > David Betz > dbetz@xlisper.mv.com > DavidBetz@aol.com > (603) 472-2389 > From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 9 11:20:41 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: (fwd) Petition for UNIX Src License - status Message-ID: <33c4ba08.677242@smtp.ix.netcom.com> I thought this would be interesting. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- In alt.folklore.computers, wkt@hennry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey) wrote: %The petition urging SCO to make source code licenses for 6th and 7th Edition %UNIX (and their relations) is going well, with over 200 signatures on the %petition so far. However, we still need your support to encourage SCO to act. % %If you ever used UNIX on a PDP-11, own a copy of John Lions Commentary %(legal or otherwise), believe that these systems are historically %interesting, or even if you think owning a source code license to a %REAL UNIX would be cool, then please SIGN THE PETITION at % % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html % %If you know anybody else who might be prepared to sign this petition, %then ___pass this message onto them___. Finally, check out the home page %of the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society at % % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ % %Many thanks in advance, % % Warren Toomey wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au % % From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 9 11:46:57 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: If you need to UN-subscribe Look Here In-Reply-To: <19970709.074840.35@junction.net> References: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <33370E7C0611@ifrsys.com> Just to let people know, everyone who is on this list should have gotten a message that describes how to un-subscribe (along with an suggestion to keep it for future reference). For those who were a little too quick with the button, to wit: >To signoff from the list, email to listproc@u.washington.edu with the following request: > > signoff CLASSICCMP >or > unsubscribe CLASSICCMP > Everybody got that? I'm sorry if this message has angered anyone. It's not really on topic, but I feel it had to be said. Peace. Jeff > Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 07:48:40 -0800 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: visimp@junction.net (Lindsay Thachuk) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: farewell > In message <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> you wrote: > > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > > I asked over a week ago to unscribe me as well but it appears not to > have been done. Today, after being away for a week, I have to weed > through the chatter to find my important mail. > > Please unsubscribe me from this list. > > -- > Lindsay Thachuk > in Western Canada with the World's Best Computer > - the Acorn RiscPC with the only StrongARM in ARMstrong > From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Jul 9 12:19:16 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Machines on the way to the dump... References: <33C3A2F1.41B6@xlisper.mv.com> Message-ID: <33C3C814.573B@xlisper.mv.com> David Betz wrote: > > I'm taking the following machines to the dump on Saturday. If anyone is > within striking distance of Bedford, NH and wants any of these machines > please let me know. > > TI-99/4a (doesn't work) > A few TI cartridges and books > Heathkit H-11 (works) > Heathkit dual 8" disk drive unit (doesn't work) > Vector V3-5036 S-100 system (works) > Vector dual 5.25" disk drive unit (untested) > VT-100 clone > Well, I really didn't want these to go to the dump. I just figured that if I said that here I'd be sure to get a response. Almost as soon as I posted this message I got a phone call from someone offering to pick up the entire mess. Rest assured that this stuff will end up in good hands. Thanks to everyone who offered to rescue it. Consider it rescued. David -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 9 13:22:21 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Digital Controls Inc. Training Cartridges? References: <9705178665.AA866556953@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> <3.0.1.32.19970617143712.009e6740@mail.northernway.net> <33A6E3E3.5F08@rain.org> Message-ID: <33C3D6DD.61DA@rain.org> Marvin wrote: > > A while back, I "saved" some cartridges from being tossed. The label > says "Digital Controls, Learning Center, Multiplan (title varies > depending on cartridge), Registerd Trademark of Microsoft Corporations, > Copyright Digital Controls, Inc." In the process of going through stuff, I found some manuals that apparently went with these cartridges. In the "Materials and Equipment Needed", they make reference to a Digital Controls Learning Center. In addition to the Center, the user needs a computer with the software (for the program being taught) properly installed. It sure sounds like this is some sort of teaching machine. Does this ring a bell with anyone? From BNICALEK at aol.com Wed Jul 9 14:16:51 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga Message-ID: <970709151643_-1225713903@emout13.mail.aol.com> Collectors: All this talk about the Amiga's got me thinking about what I read in the "Amiga Format" magazine (which they still have subscriptions for). Apparently Gateway 2000 has purchased the Amiga name, but from what I hear, has no real plans for implementation on a new product at the moment. What there are however, are old A1200's or something like that (I'm not to familiar with the Amiga line) going for sale as "remanufactured". Also curious to see if people out there would be interested in seeing Amiga create a new "home computer" which would incorporate educational, productivity and entertainment titles into one package with Internet connectivity. Any thoughts? You can write me personally if you prefer. Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 7 21:27:25 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Amiga in the back In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09-Jul-97, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >It's a model 500. No disks or PS. And the PS plug looks real funny. >I'm going to look in the junk box and see if there's a PS in there. >According to the sticker on the bottom, it uses a normal 5v/12v supply. Daniel, Here is the info off of the bottom of my A500's PSU: P/N 312503-01 input: 117V~60Hz 80VA Output: 5V 4.3A 12V 1A -12V 0.1A Pin#1 (lower right): +5 VDC Pin#2 (lower left) : Shield GND Pin#3 (upper left) : +12 VDC Pin#4 (upper right): Signal GND Pin#5 (center) : -12 VDC Hope this helps. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 7 21:45:33 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <970709151643_-1225713903@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On 10-Jul-97, BNICALEK@aol.com wrote: >Apparently Gateway 2000 has purchased the Amiga name, but from what I hear, >has no real plans for implementation on a new product at the moment. What >there are however, are old A1200's or something like that (I'm not to >familiar with the Amiga line) going for sale as "remanufactured". Bryan, Amiga International is now a speperate, though wholy owned subsidiary of Gateway 2000. It has recieved quite a bit of coverage in the last two issues of 'Amazing Computing/AMiga'. In fact, Amiga International has just signed two seperate agreements allowing for 'clones' based on the technology. From what I've read, Gateway and Amiga have every intention of revamping the machine and putting it back in production. BTW, the A1200's aren't remanufactured...they are brand new units that they started new production lines for a few months ago. Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 9 15:57:27 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: farewell In-Reply-To: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim. > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally Sorry you feel this way. The point wasn't really to prevent you from disagreeing - it was to prevent a flood of responses which might have bogged down the list for days. The whole idea of the new rules was to curb the absolute flood of unsubs that have resulted for the most part due to the constant bickering. We dropped from over 220 members to 160 over the last month. I'm sorry to see you go. > Bill, please unsubscribe me. OK. Bill From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 9 12:07:44 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: References: <970709151643_-1225713903@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199707092106.RAA05473@mail.cgocable.net> Well, there's the 500/1000/2000 series still useful at my hometown, but problem is: Will they will keep making those chips?! Better yet, improved and using CMOS instead of hotter NMOS? Jason D. Nip! > >there are however, are old A1200's or something like that (I'm not to > >familiar with the Amiga line) going for sale as "remanufactured". > > Bryan, > > Amiga International is now a speperate, though wholy owned subsidiary of > Gateway 2000. It has recieved quite a bit of coverage in the last two issues > of 'Amazing Computing/AMiga'. In fact, Amiga International has just signed > two seperate agreements allowing for 'clones' based on the technology. From > what I've read, Gateway and Amiga have every intention of revamping the > machine and putting it back in production. BTW, the A1200's aren't > remanufactured...they are brand new units that they started new production > lines for a few months ago. > > Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jul 9 07:42:33 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <199707092106.RAA05473@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On 09-Jul-97, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: >Well, there's the 500/1000/2000 series still useful at my hometown, >but problem is: >Will they will keep making those chips?! Better yet, improved and >using CMOS instead of hotter NMOS? Jason, Yes, the A500, A1000, and A2000 are still quite useful and still quite capable of running the newest version of the OS and such even though they are upwards of 10 years old! The fact that the A2000/A500 is now 10 years old and the A1000 is going on 13 years old doesn't point to it being very likely that the new company will continue production of spare parts for these machines though. I'd say about the only machines they are going to continue to support from the Commodore days are the A4000 and the A1200, which even leaves out my favorite, the A3000. Thankfully, it's still quite easy to pick up replacement chips for almost any of the Amiga's from companies such as 'Software Hut' or 'Paxtron'. In fact, Paxtron seems to still be on the lookout to buy just about any A2000 out there. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu Wed Jul 9 16:41:47 1997 From: ynagasaw at ic.sunysb.edu (Yujin Nagasawa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: I would like to unsubscribel Message-ID: <199707092139.RAA08170@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> How can I unsubscribe? Thank you, Yujin From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 9 16:48:39 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33c40611.20142714@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 08 Jul 1997 07:45:33 +0500, you wrote: % % Amiga International is now a speperate, though wholy owned subsidiary of %Gateway 2000. It has recieved quite a bit of coverage in the last two issues %of 'Amazing Computing/AMiga'. In fact, Amiga International has just signed %two seperate agreements allowing for 'clones' based on the technology. From %what I've read, Gateway and Amiga have every intention of revamping the %machine and putting it back in production. BTW, the A1200's aren't %remanufactured...they are brand new units that they started new production %lines for a few months ago. Don't flame me, but my question is : is there a market out there for the Amiga? Even the video editing/effects market seems to have turned towards Apple machines. And even Apple itself is finding selling difficult in the face of the Wintel machines. Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. And even as a Nintendo killer, I wonder how the A1200 stacks up against the N64 (not that I've actually seen one in action). I'm really curious. Ben From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 9 16:50:57 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans Message-ID: Hello, all: Here's one for you...a kind sole that I know on CompuServe was kind enough to produce color scans of the original MITS Altair article from the 1/75 issue of Popluar Electronics. I posted it yesterday on the Classic Computer ftp site under the name altarmag.zip. The file is big (3.7mb), containing about 9 jpgs. Wait till you see the color! I'm also working on this guy to prepare Adobe PDF scans of the original Altair construction manual and schematics. I've seen some scans previously, but they have shadows, etc. Hopefully, these will be of similar quality to the mag scans. When I've got them, I'll post a message. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jul 5 10:56:12 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Question about Sanyo Lunchbox Message-ID: <199707092207.PAA18743@mx4.u.washington.edu> > Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > > > > Has anyone got any ifo on a Sanyo lunchbox, model number MBC-675? > > It brings up a screen that says: > > > > 1701 > > 0 Hard Disks Installed > > ROM Bios v2.33 > > 640kb memory/ CPU clock 4.77MHz > > > > Then it just hangs. A boot disk will not work either. Does the floppy drive LED light up during startup? It should, whether or not the HDD works, and you should be able to boot from a floppy, even with a dead HDD. Therefore if a boot disk doesn't work, either your floppy system is defunct or it's in the motherboard. An easy fix -- which doesn't always work -- is to disconnect and replace all cables. It's fairly easy -- pull cables one end at a time *only*, so you don't forget where they went. Each device has 2 things going into it...a flat (usually, grey, sometimes blue) ribbon cable, for the data; and a power cable. Both are keyed, so you can't put them in backwards. Trace the data cable from the floppy(ies) back to the controller card, and pull & replace. Those are usually pins, and *can* be replaced backwards, so take care. You can swap the controller card into another slot -- any slot should work. If all slots are filled, exchange two cards. Chips work their way out of their sockets ("chip creep"); push every socketed chip back in. I have boxes of cables, controller cards and drives if you need any; e-mail me. If the floppy disk does its thing, are you sure the floppy itself is OK? It must be low density (you can tell by the hub ring) and have the proper files; try booting another machine with it. Not all DOS's will work on all machines -- I've even seen some older machines that won 't boot under DOS 6.x From manney at nwohio.com Wed Jul 9 17:01:52 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Books Message-ID: <199707092219.PAA17545@mx5.u.washington.edu> Does anyone want Intel's book, "Assembly language programming" for the 8080 and 8085 chip? Free, U pay postage. From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 9 18:01:38 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Here's one for you...a kind sole that I know on CompuServe was kind enough to > produce color scans of the original MITS Altair article from the 1/75 issue of > Popluar Electronics. I posted it yesterday on the Classic Computer ftp site > under the name altarmag.zip. The file is big (3.7mb), containing about 9 jpgs. > Wait till you see the color! But don't look for it yet. It has been removed for review while I contact Ziff-Davis about reprint. I already spoke with the current owners of PE who apparently don't own the rights to the old issues. Probably be a couple days but I anticipate they'll be happy to let us use it. > I'm also working on this guy to prepare Adobe PDF scans of the original > Altair construction manual and schematics. I've seen some scans previously, > but they have shadows, etc. Hopefully, these will be of similar quality to the > mag scans. Please remember to get a copy of DS-form.txt from ftp://140.142.225.27/pub/ classiccmp/docs when submitting material. Saves me a lot of time and effort to have that information. Glad to see people are starting to use the archive! Bill From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 9 18:39:06 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: (fwd) Petition for UNIX Src License - status In-Reply-To: <33c4ba08.677242@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I just signed this petition and I would encourage all of you to. Regardless of whether or not you have used Unix or a PDP-11 it will be good for all of us to get companies in the practice of releasing their obsolete code/documentation/hardware/whatever to the public. Bill > %If you ever used UNIX on a PDP-11, own a copy of John Lions Commentary > %(legal or otherwise), believe that these systems are historically > %interesting, or even if you think owning a source code license to a > %REAL UNIX would be cool, then please SIGN THE PETITION at > % > % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/petition.html > % > %If you know anybody else who might be prepared to sign this petition, > %then ___pass this message onto them___. Finally, check out the homepage > %of the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society at > % > % http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/ > % > %Many thanks in advance, > % > % Warren Toomey wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au > % > % > > From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 9 19:17:00 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Heathkit Hero 1/2000 Message-ID: Just out of curiosity (isn't that a great lead-in??), how much would an old Heath Hero 1000/2000 robot go for?? They seem relatively scarce, but I would like to get one to support my renewed interest in robotics. Just what I need, another hobby... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 9 23:52:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Jason, > > Yes, the A500, A1000, and A2000 are still quite useful and still quite > capable of running the newest version of the OS and such even though they are > upwards of 10 years old! As long as you got the 100+ bucks for the rom and the disks... > > The fact that the A2000/A500 is now 10 years old and the A1000 is going on > 13 years old doesn't point to it being very likely that the new company will > continue production of spare parts for these machines though. I'd say about > the only machines they are going to continue to support from the Commodore > days are the A4000 and the A1200, which even leaves out my favorite, the I think what Gateway had in mind was for the Amiga to be sorta like a "WebTV" type thing. i.e. a bargain computer/box that'd let you "surf the web." > A3000. Thankfully, it's still quite easy to pick up replacement chips for > almost any of the Amiga's from companies such as 'Software Hut' or 'Paxtron'. > In fact, Paxtron seems to still be on the lookout to buy just about any A2000 > out there. And subsequently charge you an arma and a leg when they sell it back to you. Software Hut sells some of their "new" Amigas for more than they cost when they came out years ago! > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers Don't get me wrong, I like my Commodore's just as much as the next guy. But when I go to a plac and they want to chrge me $99 for a 60 meg IDE drive then I have to think twice... Amiga stuff costs too damn much and you really don't get much from them in return. From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 9 23:56:45 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:13 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <33c40611.20142714@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Benedict Chong wrote: > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. > > And even as a Nintendo killer, I wonder how the A1200 stacks up > against the N64 (not that I've actually seen one in action). > > I'm really curious. The last time I checked, the going price for a 1200 was osmehting like $575. For that you got a 14mhz 68020, 2 megs ram, and a 80 (maybe 60) meg HD. Nowhere near being competitive to either a Nintendo or even a PC! PLus, software is extremely expensive and relatively hard to find (You have to know where to look) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 00:29:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: Yea! Thanks to Ted Birdsell's reservation we reached the 100 mark! (This is like a Jerry Lewis telethon.) C'mon, let's squeeze out 50 more! I know you all can do it!!! :) I'm thinking about putting an advertisement on some usenet groups to get some more response. I'm going to advertise them at $15 plus shipping. Please do not get alarmed. Of course I will be making a profit. Remember, there are 400 of these HHCs available. Tell a friend! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Wed Jul 9 15:32:26 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: farewell References: <199707090641.AAA04404@calico.litterbox.com> Message-ID: <33C3F55A.4D51@Brighton-UK.com> Jim wrote: > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > -- > Jim Strickland > jim@calico.litterbox.com > -- > > "...It tells me that goose stepping morons like yourself should try reading > books instead of burning them." > > -Dr. Henry Jones Sr. > Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade I agree to disagree.... this mail list like all the others is made by the people partecipating to it and belong to them NOT to the promoter. enrico From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jul 9 22:47:13 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Amigas and PETs... References: <199707090702.AAA02509@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33C45B40.262C@goldrush.com> RE: CD-32 and Amiga w/drive on the side... The CD32 is actually an Amiga 1200 not the more limited 600. The 1200 has the more advanced AGA graphics chipset (and a 68020 processor). There are expansion units (SX-1 I think is the name of them) readily available to bump the CD32 up to a full-fledged 1200. You can easily adapt an IBM clone 'box' power supply to use on the 500. I have my Amiga 500 and hard drive wired into one. (the hardest part would be finding an Amiga 500 power connector) The 500 is a great computer and one of the easiest to expand, (except for the 2000). You can find alot of good projects on the internet for it. ===-===--===---=-=-=-=-=-===---===--- >From: Marvin >Subject: Pet Serial Numbers >Just curious if anyone knows what the starting serial number was for the >Commodore Pets? So far, the following are the earliest Pets I have. I >believe these both came from the local university at one of their sales. My oldest is in the 14000 area IIRC. It is an original 8k unit (the tape drives with it were butchered Sanyo units, so it was'nt too late in the productiion run.) --==-=-=-=--=--=--=====--=--==--=-= >From: Cord Coslor >Subject: c-16 and Plus/4 >I remember seeing a post here a week or two ago asking about the >availability of Commodore 16 and Plus/4 cartridges. I response, I >gathered, was that they were not very common here in teh United States, >and seemed just altogether uncommon.... maybe even some doubt as to the >actual number of titles created. >Recently, I picked up my first c-16 / Plus/4 cart -- it was Scott Adams >adventure game Strange Odyssey sold by Commodore. This titles was not >mentioned by those on this listserv. It was one of the set of eight I had bought (all with the commodore brand name on em), I probably didn't mention it cause I don't remember all the titles... (I am reconing they are in the outside storage closet which is currently inhabited by wasps...) *bummer* >Anyway, I also have a TON of other titles that I have been using for some >time on my PC emulator called Minus/4. A very good emulator. So, I guess >what I am finally getting at is it seems there actually WERE a lot of >different titles created for these machines, though I do not know the >actual numbers of titles, quantities, or popularity in the US. Could >anyone out there fill us in on some facts? Besides Magic Carpet Software, Data-20 (responsible for the +3 productivity programs in the +4s ROM), and Progressive Software (Superbase is available for the Plus/4!) I didnt hear of all that much stuff put out in the U.S. Europe on the other hand has had a great following with the Plus/4 and C-16, most of the programs I would safely guess are from there. User support here was either through PLUG (Plus/4 Users Group), or Jim Hehl in Anchorage. Plug provided a list of European distributors and Jim was into program conversion (Such popular 64 programs like Speedscript were converted). The major bummer about European Plus/4 stuff is alot of it is compressed and locked into PAL mode and thus unviewable on NTSC displays. (Jim & Jack Vandewrwhite had converted some though, I think they are available on funet.fi's FTP., I think the series is called 'ceepee4' something...) >I just don't have the experience in these machines needed to accurately >inform others. >Finally, does anyone have a c-16 or Plus/4 machine for sale or trade. I >just have this one cartridge, but I have a burning desire to acquire one >or more of these machines. Please let me know. Actually.... YES! I picked up one a couple weeks back and will sell it to you for the price I paid ($2.95) plus shipping (USPS, $10 or so...) It comes in its box with a Power Supply (I don't think I have any extra manuals, sorry). I just powered it up and it does work (though there is a strange wire hanging out; looking on the motherboard I would assume it was for a utility cart or something. Regardless it doesn't affect operation.) E-mail me if interested. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 10 03:07:04 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: farewell References: Message-ID: <33C49828.AFA@Brighton-UK.com> Bill Whitson wrote: > > Hi Jim. > > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say they disagree. > > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from this list. > > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or Tiger Learning > > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > Sorry you feel this way. The point wasn't really to prevent you from > disagreeing - it was to prevent a flood of responses which might have > bogged down the list for days. The whole idea of the new rules was to > curb the absolute flood of unsubs that have resulted for the most part > due to the constant bickering. We dropped from over 220 members to 160 > over the last month. I'm sorry to see you go. > > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > > OK. > > Bill On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and whys that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware is narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as an intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I will have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From pcoad at crl.com Thu Jul 10 02:46:53 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Amigas and PETs... In-Reply-To: <33C45B40.262C@goldrush.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > >From: Cord Coslor > >Subject: c-16 and Plus/4 > > >Anyway, I also have a TON of other titles that I have been using for some > >time on my PC emulator called Minus/4. A very good emulator. So, I guess > >what I am finally getting at is it seems there actually WERE a lot of > >different titles created for these machines, though I do not know the > >actual numbers of titles, quantities, or popularity in the US. Could > >anyone out there fill us in on some facts? > > Besides Magic Carpet Software, Data-20 (responsible for the +3 > productivity programs in the +4s ROM), and Progressive Software > (Superbase is available for the Plus/4!) I didnt hear of all that much > stuff put out in the U.S. Europe on the other hand has had a great > following with the Plus/4 and C-16, most of the programs I would safely > guess are from there. > Infocom produced versions of atleast 2 of their games for the Plus/4: Cutthroats and Suspect. There might have been others. These I can verify. Both games are on disks which were for both Plus/4 and C64. The C-16 didn't have enough memory to run the Infocom games. I haven't seen any mention of the Plus/4 in any Infocom catalog. Strange. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From pcoad at crl.com Thu Jul 10 02:54:14 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: classic software for sale Message-ID: I have a bunch of classic DOS software, manuals, and disks for sale. Many are still in shrinkwrap. The list is too large to post to the list. Email me for a complete list including prices and terms. A short selection is below: A04 Visicorp VisiCalc (198?) manual, disks, CDEX training for VisiCalc, shrinkwrap A10 Microsoft Multiplan (1982-3) (green packaging) manual, disks, plastic case, shrinkwrap G10 IBM Technical Reference (1981) hardware reference manual for PC (includes BIOS source) manual, 3 ring binder, slipcase G11 IBM Hardware Maintenance and service Personal Computer - PCjr manual, slipcase C06 IBM Disk Operating System by Microsoft v1.10 (1982) manual in 3 ring binder and slipcase, disk, quick reference card D04 Ashton-Tate DBase III v1.1 (1984) complete (silver cardboard cover slip case) There are a good number of DOS packages, early Microsoft packages, office productivity packages, a few development tools, and some junk. Nearly all are classics. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jul 10 03:26:34 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <33c40611.20142714@smtp.ix.netcom.com> from "Benedict Chong" at Jul 9, 97 09:48:39 pm Message-ID: <199707100826.EAA04370@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Benedict Chong once stated: > > Don't flame me, but my question is : is there a market out there for > the Amiga? Even the video editing/effects market seems to have turned > towards Apple machines. And even Apple itself is finding selling > difficult in the face of the Wintel machines. To bring this back to the list (as the Amiga is a Classic Machine according the the definition used here), while the current market for the Amiga might seem a bit thin, it might be a good idea to also licence the OS, as it was (and still is) one of the best kernel designs I've seen and had, in 1985, capabilities that we are only now being used in the main stream (read: Wintel market) as well as capabilities that Chairman Bill and the Gateites haven't incorporated. > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. The Amiga OS on a modern CPU should literally scream. My own 7.1Mhz Amiga 500 seems snappy compared to the doggish NT box I use at work, and suffers from fewer crashes. Ah well ... -spc (I guess that's what makes it a classic) From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 03:14:18 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: Commodore SuperPet SP9000 (Runs Fine) $100 (fwd) Message-ID: Maybe someone is interested in this. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Chris Glackin" Newsgroups: comp.sys.cbm Subject: FS: Commodore SuperPet SP9000 (Runs Fine) $100 For Sale: Commodore SuperPet SP9000 ($100) For sale by private owner Located in Farmington Hills, Michigan Prefer Pickup/Cash Only $100 PLEASE DIRECT ALL INQUIRIES TO: CGLACKIN@MSN.COM 1 Commodore Superpet SP9000 Turns on and seems to run fine * I can't verify the operation of any of the edge connectors due to lack of accessories, but I have turned it on and written some simple BASIC programs that run fine in 6502 and 6809 mode Has both 6502 and 6809 boards with toggle switches on side Green Monochrome trapezoid shaped screen works fine Original piezo speaker sound still works great Keyboard works great Case is in pretty good condition * No dents or major marks, a few minor scratches that could be touched up The 'hood' lifts fine, doesn't even squeak, and has the original stick inside to hold it up - just like a car hood (anyone ever make a miniature drop light for the Pet series?) ** I do not have ANY manuals or accessories for this computer When this computer is turned on, a menu comes up with a list of programming languages to select from. At the top of the screen it says: WATERLOO MICROSYSTEMS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I learned to program in 6502 assembly language on the Pet 2001 w/ a 4040 dual disk drive unit in 1981. I never even knew of a SuperPet until I found this one waiting for the Sanitation Engineers on a curb a few years ago. I thought it was the regular old Pet when I saw it from afar. So I picked it up and carried it home - an excruciating half mile journey. If you are one who remembers lifting a Pet, you know what I'm talking about! I figured I'd relive some of the ol' days and actually put some sort of working system together, but there just isn't any time left in this SDK-A-MINUTE computer world. I have met others online that love their Pet's -- and other various computer antiques -- and seem to enjoy keeping them running, so perhaps this SuperPet can find a much more deserving home. The serial number is SP0000284. Is this the 284th SuperPet off the line? Out of how many? Is it related to HAL? If anyone knows the answers, I'd love to hear them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- E-MAIL: CGLACKIN@MSN.COM Commodore SuperPet SP9000 for $100 -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From groberts at mitre.org Thu Jul 10 07:34:11 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Thank you bill In-Reply-To: <33C49828.AFA@Brighton-UK.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970710083411.008543a0@mail90> I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. His efforts are aimed at preserving the integrity of the list and keeping things civil. I would much rather attend a well run meeting than sit in a room full of people yelling at each other or debating trivia. The quality and usefulness of this list are directly proportional to the number of interested parties who subscribe and I would hate to see subscription dwindle to a few chat cliques. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 10 07:48:52 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans Message-ID: Bill: >>But don't look for it yet. It has been removed for review while I contact >>Ziff-Davis about reprint. I already spoke with the current owners of PE who >>apparently don't own the rights to the old issues. Probably be a couple >>days but I anticipate they'll be happy to let us use it. I hope that they do let us archive them. Frankly, I didn't focus on the fact that the archived article may be considered a "republication". Sorry about that. Does that mean that we would also have to contact Ed Roberts to get his permission to archive a copy of the construction manual? I'll send-up a DS-form on the article scans this afternoon. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From ampage at geocities.com Thu Jul 10 08:07:16 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Heathkit Hero 1/2000 References: Message-ID: <33C4DE84.4BF27AD3@geocities.com> You might still be able to buy one from Heathkit. Go to http://www.heathkit.com From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 10 09:39:33 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > I hope that they do let us archive them. Frankly, I didn't focus on the fact > that the archived article may be considered a "republication". Sorry about > that. Does that mean that we would also have to contact Ed Roberts to get his > permission to archive a copy of the construction manual? Sadly it gets a bit more contorted than that... Ed Roberts sold MITS to Pertec (who proceeded to largely run it into the ground B^{ ), who was then purchased by Triumph-Adler of Germany. So, it can be assumed that TA now owns all of the rights to things MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them on occasion on related matters and have gotten no response of any kind to date. Just my $.02 worth... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 10 09:41:04 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Heathkit Hero 1/2000 In-Reply-To: <33C4DE84.4BF27AD3@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Asterisk wrote: > You might still be able to buy one from Heathkit. Go to > http://www.heathkit.com Sorry, no. Heath is far removed from just about any interest in the HERO line any more. Mobile Ed. Productions is the current best source for information, but no one is manufacturing the HERO any more... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 10:15:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Thank you bill In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970710083411.008543a0@mail90> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Glenn Roberts wrote: > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. His > efforts are aimed at preserving the integrity of the list and keeping > things civil. I would much rather attend a well run meeting than sit in a > room full of people yelling at each other or debating trivia. The quality > and usefulness of this list are directly proportional to the number of > interested parties who subscribe and I would hate to see subscription > dwindle to a few chat cliques. Sorry to post a "me-to" article (which is forbidden) but ditto. I think Bill deserves at least some credit for putting this together so that at the very least we can scream and bitch at each other. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Thu Jul 10 10:56:04 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Crappadore 64 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970704105758.65bf68c6@mail.crl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 03:19 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: > >> That's funny...a computer facelift. > > Actually, a number of companies offered the same type of thing for the > >ZX-81/Timex-Sinclair 1000. It was to give the computer a real keyboard > And the Atari ST -- to put it in a tower case, among other things. One of the prettiest machines I ever saw was a TRS-80 Color Computer built into a PC clone portable case, with color tube (not yet common in PC luggables at the time) along with the multi-pak interface, floppy controller, etc. It's something I've considered doing myself, but other priorities keep rearing ugly heads. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jul 10 11:05:59 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" Message-ID: Hello: I recently picked up two old game system units that i really don't know a whole lot about. I am hoping some you you may be able to fill me in on soem more information. 1) This unit is label "APF tv fun" pn the front. It has a knob with four game selection possibilities, on/off switch/ start button, angle setting, bat size setting, and ball speed setting. It appears this is an old Tennis/baseball type of game unit. It also appears that the actual controllers on on the main unit in the form of knobs. It saw it was made in Japan by APF Electronics, Inc. although I can't find a year. Could anyone help there? It also says underneath TV FUN Model No. 401A and seriel number is S- 052193. Finally it has the TV channell selector (3 or 4) and battery storage unit to run it off batteries. Could anyone please give me some more information on this, and also info. on if it might have some value out there or interest from any of you? 2) This looks like a 'golden oldie'. This also is a self contained game unit. It came complete with two odd looking joysticks, although the machine has ports for four joysticks. On the front it has a calculator looking button pad and to the right of that is a cassette insertion place along with an eject and reset button. Behing all of this is a storage compartment for several cassettes, complete with hard palstic cover for this area as well.I also have an overlay that says Astrocade BASIC (c) 1978 Astrocade, Inc.? This apparently goes with a cassette for the unit that says " BASIC, Computer Programming Cartridge with Built-In Interface (c) 1981 Astrocade, Inc. " On the cassette is a small like and an audio cassette Jack (in/out) -- also came witha small microphone.On the underside it says Astrocade Arcade Model ABA-1000-2 with a seriel # of 020777 and Astrovision, Inc, Garner, Iowa also on the bottom. Again, would any of you know more information on this unit, and if it might have some value out there to collectors? Are any of you interested? I only paid $5 for both of the above items, and I guess I am willing to entertain propositions if anyone wants them. Please let me know. Oh, yes, are there other cassettes available for the Astrocade? Are the above units very common these days? Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 10 11:20:39 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Interfacing Hard Sector Disk Drive References: Message-ID: <33C50BD7.524D@rain.org> In the comp.os.cpm newsgroup, one of the posts referred to wanting to know the geneology of MDOS (Micropolis Dos.) That led to the fact the disks were 16 hard sector disks ... which led to the interfacing for the Micropolis 100 TPI disks drives. Is the controller specific to the controller or can the drive be interfaced to any controller? I suspect the controller and drive are a pair but don't know for sure. From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 10 11:25:58 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" Message-ID: <199707101625.AA11432@world.std.com> > 1) This unit is label "APF tv fun" pn the front. It has a knob with fou > game selection possibilities, on/off switch/ start button, angle settin > bat size setting, and ball speed setting. It appears this is an old > Tennis/baseball type of game unit. It also appears that the actual > controllers on on the main unit in the form of knobs. It saw it was mad > in Japan by APF Electronics, Inc. although I can't find a year. Could > anyone help there? It also says underneath TV FUN Model No. 401A and that's the oldie of the bunch! Early game machines from the mid '70 were the tennis/pong type and used a few chips. their logic was a mix of digital and analog. My guess would be 75-77 timeframe. It would be some years before the tvgames would go the microprocessor route to get the the first ataris and company. Allison From william at ans.net Thu Jul 10 12:12:57 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <199707100826.EAA04370@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199707101712.AA25353@interlock.ans.net> > > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. > > The Amiga OS on a modern CPU should literally scream. My own 7.1Mhz Amiga > 500 seems snappy compared to the doggish NT box I use at work, and suffers > from fewer crashes. The thing that dooms new developement of the Amiga line is the fact that the M68K line of processors is just about out of steam. Sure, a blazingly fast Amiga with a 68060 would be nice, but Motorola is trying to kill off the line gracefully, so the PowerPC and Coldfire chips can prosper. William Donzelli william@ans.net From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 12:17:03 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: farewell Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Enrico, You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg interface which has allowed us to ignore the realities of our Jungian existance. Those among us who have perused and then obviously ignored the message of the volume of our times, Gibson & Sterling's _The Difference Engine_, and shall surely rotate on the firey rotissery of Dante's twenty-ninth buglia of the pit, which of course is reserved for those who have committed the terrible sin of coveting thy neighbor's Imsai. How can we claim to discuss the so-called 'collecting' of so-called 'classic' computers when our hypocritical censorious self-righteousness has made us purblind to the fact that 'collect' also purtains to a short prayer comprising an invocation, petition, and conclusion! And 'classic' from the Roman 'classicus' identifies us as citizens of the first rank, who should know better! What this obviously boils down to is the age old conflict of materiality and the health of the soul cleaved by the sword of societal amiguity. In an awful orgy of idolitry we have in a very real and illusive sense integrated these actual bits of, as you put it, metal and plastic into our flesh itself, becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. Kai > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 1:07 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: farewell > > Bill Whitson wrote: > > > > Hi Jim. > > > > > I agreed with the new rules until the bit where nobody can say > they disagree. > > > That, and I really don't have time to read the volume coming from > this list. > > > Farewell all, then. If you have questions about apple2 GSs or > Tiger Learning > > > Computers, please feel free to e-mail me personally > > > > Sorry you feel this way. The point wasn't really to prevent you > from > > disagreeing - it was to prevent a flood of responses which might > have > > bogged down the list for days. The whole idea of the new rules was > to > > curb the absolute flood of unsubs that have resulted for the most > part > > due to the constant bickering. We dropped from over 220 members to > 160 > > over the last month. I'm sorry to see you go. > > > > > Bill, please unsubscribe me. > > > > OK. > > > > Bill > > On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this > > mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH > discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and > whys > that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware is > narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider > "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as > an > intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking > about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? > > As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and > plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they > managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your > > hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future > generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I > will > have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: > > From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 10 12:36:07 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Floppy Disk Media References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33C51D87.1482@rain.org> Just curious here, does anyone have a list of the MANY brands of floppy disks and who the actual manufacturer might be? I got intrigued several years ago with the many floppy disks that were available and have been just setting them aside as I saw interesting ones. So far, I haven't bothered to catalog them but it is interesting to see the different jackets. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 12:35:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Zenith Portable Computer ZP-150 Message-ID: Anyone know much about the Zenith Portable Computer ZP-150? I'm possibly buying one this weekend and want to know a little about it before I go through all the trouble. Thanks! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 12:30:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > 1) This unit is label "APF tv fun" pn the front. It has a knob with four > game selection possibilities, on/off switch/ start button, angle setting, > bat size setting, and ball speed setting. It appears this is an old > Tennis/baseball type of game unit. It also appears that the actual > controllers on on the main unit in the form of knobs. It saw it was made > in Japan by APF Electronics, Inc. although I can't find a year. Could > anyone help there? It also says underneath TV FUN Model No. 401A and > seriel number is S- 052193. Finally it has the TV channell selector (3 > or 4) and battery storage unit to run it off batteries. Could anyone > please give me some more information on this, and also info. on if it > might have some value out there or interest from any of you? I have one as well. Don't know what year it came out but my guess is early 80s. Just another maddening Pong console. > 2) This looks like a 'golden oldie'. This also is a self contained game > unit. It came complete with two odd looking joysticks, although the > machine has ports for four joysticks. On the front it has a calculator > looking button pad and to the right of that is a cassette insertion place > along with an eject and reset button. Behing all of this is a storage > compartment for several cassettes, complete with hard palstic cover for > this area as well.I also have an overlay that says Astrocade BASIC (c) > 1978 Astrocade, Inc.? This apparently goes with a cassette for the unit > that says " BASIC, Computer Programming Cartridge with Built-In Interface > (c) 1981 Astrocade, Inc. " On the cassette is a small like and an audio > cassette Jack (in/out) -- also came witha small microphone.On the > underside it says Astrocade Arcade Model ABA-1000-2 with a seriel # of > 020777 and Astrovision, Inc, Garner, Iowa also on the bottom. Again, would > any of you know more information on this unit, and if it might have some > value out there to collectors? Are any of you interested? It's a Bally Astrocade and I would consider it highly collectible, if not rare. I have yet to find one for myself, and have only recently seen one in person. Games are fairly hard to find for it, and only occasionally come up for sale or auction on the net. Nice find! > I only paid $5 for both of the above items, and I guess I am willing to > entertain propositions if anyone wants them. Please let me know. Oh, yes, > are there other cassettes available for the Astrocade? Are the above units > very common these days? I'd be interested in the Astrocade if you're interested in selling it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From starling at umr.edu Thu Jul 10 12:48:34 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: from "Cord Coslor" at Jul 10, 97 11:05:59 am Message-ID: <199707101748.MAA19706@saucer.cc.umr.edu> I think of the two there, the Bally is much cooler. My Astrocade is the co-star in my home videogame collection, along with my Vectrex. The machine started off life as the Bally Professional Arcade (Yes, Bally the pinball & arcade game people (not Bally the bra manufacturer... I always thought it'd be cool if they were the same company... imagine the possibilities)... was this before they merged with Midway?). After its birth in 1978, its name was changed to the Bally Computer System, after Bally sold the rights to the machine in 1981 to a group of devoted users who were wanting to keep it alive. Then like in '82 the company changed its name from Astrovision to Astrocade. They continued to manufacture the machine until around 1985. The machine is a Z80, running at 3.5Mhz. It has 4K ram, and 4 "games" built into its ROM. The sound is 3 voice with noise & vibrato. It has to be one of the best sounding machines made during that era. The first time I turned mine on and played Space Fortrees I was blown away. The graphics aren't bad for 1978, but the sound is awesome... might be the same sound setup they put in their arcade games, not sure. The Astrocade also has the distinction of having THE BEST joysticks for any home arcade system I've played on (with the Nintendo's original NES in last place, right behind the TI-99/4A). Bally was on the ball when they designed these... they're a joystick that also twists like a paddle, and the pistol grip with trigger fire button is a fabulous. Cartridges for it are somewhat difficult to find, but you can find them being auctioned on usenet occasionally. For more info, check out: http://www.io.org/~komb1/Ballyfaq.html From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 10 13:57:37 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Floppy Disk Media In-Reply-To: <33C51D87.1482@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jul 10, 97 10:36:07 am Message-ID: <9707101757.AA14791@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 692 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970710/4e1affea/attachment-0001.ksh From spc at armigeron.com Thu Jul 10 13:07:05 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga In-Reply-To: <199707101712.AA25353@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jul 10, 97 01:12:57 pm Message-ID: <199707101807.OAA06076@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: > > > > Aren't the A1200 a little too 'old' technology for the new machines > > > market where everyone must have a fast MMX Px with faster math copro > > > for Quake? Unless they're selling them as NCs or Nintendo killers. > > > > The Amiga OS on a modern CPU should literally scream. My own 7.1Mhz Amiga > > 500 seems snappy compared to the doggish NT box I use at work, and suffers > > from fewer crashes. > > The thing that dooms new developement of the Amiga line is the fact that > the M68K line of processors is just about out of steam. Sure, a blazingly > fast Amiga with a 68060 would be nice, but Motorola is trying to kill off > the line gracefully, so the PowerPC and Coldfire chips can prosper. But that doesn't mean that the OS can't be ported to other chips. The operating system is (more or less) divided along three main components: Exec (more or less the kernel), DOS (the file system) and Intuition (the GUI). Exec isn't that big, and in one evening I had about half of it written in C (there were still some issues like memory management and task switching that obviously will be CPU dependant, but as it stands, the API is fairly neutral in that reguard). DOS was actually a port of Tri-POS (from England) and if I recall, was ported to Exec in about three weeks. Intuition might be the more difficult part, as it does rely upon the graphics subsystem, but from what I hear, some of the later versions (before Commodore went belly-up) had managed to get more abstraction. The other funny thing about the OS is that Exec was (obviously) written in 68K assembly, DOS in BCPL and Intuition in C. I don't see why it can't be ported. -spc (Nice system) From idavis at comland.com Thu Jul 10 13:12:39 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Rescue List Update Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970710181239.0092afd0@mail.comland.com > It has been a month since I started the list, so I guess it's time for an little update. We have quite a few entries so far, and the list really looks good. Only two of us (Brett and myself) have volunteered to have our vehicles repainted, stickers applied, and flashing lights installed. Just keep in mind that this list is strictly that, just a list. No one is comitted to do anything, but we are all here in the interest of preservation, so anything you can do will help. I, as well as everyone on the list has a limit to what they will/can haul and ship if necessary. We all pretty much have the same goals and limitations. If you are not on the list, and want to be added, feel free to email me. On a side note, I have also added a second page with a list of items that have been saved. If someone contacts you through the list and you manage to save something, go ahead and let me know. I will add it to the page. If you cannot get to the web page, or know someone who wants a copy, I can email it to you/them. Thanks for all of the entries. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jul 10 13:08:33 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Gateway 2000 Buys Amiga Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970710111308.3d3f124a@mail.crl.com> At 09:48 PM 7/9/97 GMT, you wrote: >the Amiga? Even the video editing/effects market seems to have turned >towards Apple machines. And even Apple itself is finding selling >difficult in the face of the Wintel machines. I'd be willing to bet that GW2K is after the video toaster technology (yes, I know it's a separate company). It is a pretty hot system, at least according to friends who do that sort of thing. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 13:54:40 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Floppy Disk Media Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20577A528@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Unsurprisingly, the majority of floppy disk magnetic media was/is made by the leaders in audio magnetic media. The two historic giants in that field were BASF and 3M, who independently invented magnetic recording technology. Personally, my favorite floppy brand is Verbatim DataLife Plus. They use a Teflon media coating and are virtually indestructible in normal usage. If you spilled something on one, you just cut the side of the jacket, pulled out the media, washed it in warm soapy water, put it back in another jacket and you were good to go. Kai > ---------- > From: Marvin > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 10:36 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Floppy Disk Media > > Just curious here, does anyone have a list of the MANY brands of > floppy > disks and who the actual manufacturer might be? I got intrigued > several > years ago with the many floppy disks that were available and have been > just setting them aside as I saw interesting ones. So far, I haven't > bothered to catalog them but it is interesting to see the different > jackets. > From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 10 15:11:10 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Thank you bill References: <3.0.3.32.19970710083411.008543a0@mail90> Message-ID: <33C541DE.2FE7@Brighton-UK.com> Glenn Roberts wrote: > > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just hardware OR history of the machines as well? enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Thu Jul 10 15:17:34 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: farewell References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33C5435E.6FF9@Brighton-UK.com> Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > Enrico, > > You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness > we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism > of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary > Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg > interface which has allowed us to ignore the realities of our Jungian > existance. Those among us who have perused and then obviously ignored > the message of the volume of our times, Gibson & Sterling's _The > Difference Engine_, and shall surely rotate on the firey rotissery of > Dante's twenty-ninth buglia of the pit, which of course is reserved for > those who have committed the terrible sin of coveting thy neighbor's > Imsai. How can we claim to discuss the so-called 'collecting' of > so-called 'classic' computers when our hypocritical censorious > self-righteousness has made us purblind to the fact that 'collect' also > purtains to a short prayer comprising an invocation, petition, and > conclusion! And 'classic' from the Roman 'classicus' identifies us as > citizens of the first rank, who should know better! What this obviously > boils down to is the age old conflict of materiality and the health of > the soul cleaved by the sword of societal amiguity. In an awful orgy of > idolitry we have in a very real and illusive sense integrated these > actual bits of, as you put it, metal and plastic into our flesh itself, > becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped > from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. > > Kai Exactly! enrico From chemif at mbox.queen.it Thu Jul 10 14:40:37 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: "Bally AstroBreast" and TI collectors Message-ID: <199707101940.VAA29622@mbox.queen.it> At 12:48 10/07/97 -0500, you wrote: >The machine started off life as the Bally Professional Arcade (Yes, Bally >the pinball & arcade game people (not Bally the bra manufacturer... I >always thought it'd be cool if they were the same company... imagine the >possibilities) HA!HA!HA!HA! Yes, the pinball game where instead of side buttons you have..(immagine). HE!HE!HE! Ok, now a serious IN TOPICS question: Anyone collecting Texas Instruments minis (990 family) and related peripherals like Omni? 810 Printer? Let me know. Bye ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html From dynasoar at mindspring.com Thu Jul 10 19:10:03 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: classic software for sale References: Message-ID: <33C579DB.88E@mindspring.com> Paul E Coad wrote: > > I have a bunch of classic DOS software, manuals, and disks for sale. Many > are still in shrinkwrap. The list is too large to post to the list. Email > me for a complete list including prices and terms. Hello Paul, Please email me the list of what you have available. I am particularly interested in: > > G11 IBM Hardware Maintenance and service Personal Computer - PCjr > manual, slipcase > Thanks, Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jul 10 16:40:49 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: "Bally AstroBreast" and TI collectors In-Reply-To: <199707101940.VAA29622@mbox.queen.it> from "Riccardo Romagnoli" at Jul 10, 97 09:40:37 pm Message-ID: <199707102140.QAA10760@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - I have both. The 990 is in storage, but the 810 is still in use on my pc. Please remember to include your email address when posting. This will save some extranous replies. John > > Anyone collecting Texas Instruments minis (990 family) and related > peripherals like Omni® 810 Printer? > Let me know. > > Bye > > > > §§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§§ > Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE > AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY > Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* > where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 16:52:18 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >>But don't look for it yet. It has been removed for review while I contact > >>Ziff-Davis about reprint. I already spoke with the current owners of PE who > >>apparently don't own the rights to the old issues. Probably be a couple > >>days but I anticipate they'll be happy to let us use it. > > I hope that they do let us archive them. Frankly, I didn't focus on the fact > that the archived article may be considered a "republication". Sorry about > that. Does that mean that we would also have to contact Ed Roberts to get his > permission to archive a copy of the construction manual? For any submission, be it documentation, software, ROM-code, whatever it is best to fill out a DS-form. I have designed it in such a way that even if you are not able to untimately reach a person who legally holds an item, it shows a trail of efforts made to acquire the proper permissions. In many cases we will not be able to track down original publishers but if one should appear out of obscurity with a lawsuit in hand I can show that we did everything we could reasonably do to obtain permission. Bill From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 17:06:40 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Thank you bill In-Reply-To: <33C541DE.2FE7@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: > Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just > hardware OR history of the machines as well? > > enrico For the benefit of any here who have not read my response to this question or the FAQ: Anything related to classic computers is appropriate discussion. History is generally included in the term "anything". I cannot make this any clearer. If you post a message and no one follows up then they are unable or unwilling to do so. In these instances a repost 3-4 months later may get better results as there will (hopefully) be an increased readership after that time. Repeatedly resurrecting topics for which no one has an answer will result in people being annoyed with you and becoming less likely to respond favorably to anything you post. This is human nature. The FAQ lays out in excruciating detail what kinds of discussion are appropriate here. I highly suggest that you read it if you have any questions. Bill Whitson From josh at netins.net Thu Jul 10 17:25:45 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Zenith Portable Computer ZP-150 Message-ID: <199707102225.RAA20871@ins6.netins.net> I sure do! Used to own one! It is a laptop simmilar to tandy's 600, except without a floppy. Uses microsoft "Works" integrated software. Nice 80X16 screen. Uses 10 AA batteries, yes TEN! Needs special cable to hook to printer, but shouldn't be hard to make one. Nice to use for a remote (very dumb) terminal. Has internal 300bps modem. Has a few softwares, like the Model 100 does. Hope it helps! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 17:06:53 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: FAQ addition: Repairing Capacitive Keyboards Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20578947C@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> REPAIRING CAPACITIVE KEYBOARDS v1.0 7/10/97 Kai Kaltenbach ---> What are capacitive keyboards? The vast majority of capacitive keyboards were and are manufactured by Keytronics of Spokane, Washington. The mechanism is really quite simple. A keypress pushes a foil circle onto the surface of a printed circuit board, thus completing the circuit and registering the keypress to the computer. Capacitive keyboards are very reliable; however, they will fail over time even if unused. Each foil contact circle is backed by a cylinder of PVC foam. The foam is subject to environmental deterioration. Once the foam loses its elasticity or dissolves entirely, the keys will stop working because the foil circles will no longer make good contact with the PC board. Various classic computer systems, such as the Processor Technology Sol, exhibit this problem after their 20+ year lifespan. ---> How do I tell if I have a capacitive keyboard? Just remove a key cap -- if there is a separate spring under the key cap, around the plunger, it's extremely likely that it's a capacitive keyboard. They won't always say Keytronic on the outside of the keyboard housing. ---> What do I need to start a repair job? First you need a set of replacement foam pads. Each foam pad is a cylinder about 1/4" in diameter and 3/16" long. There is a semi-rigid clear plastic circle attached to one end of the pad, and a foil cylinder attached to the other end. The only toosl you'll need are a #1 Philips screwdriver and a very small standard screwdriver such as those pen-clip types frequently included in computer tool kits (plus whatever tools are necessary to remove the keyboard from its enclosure). ---> Where do I get replacement pads? If you're a perfectionist, you can order replacement pads from Keytronic Corporation (http://www.keytronic.com/). However, it's much easier to simply find a capacitive keyboard in your local computer junk/surplus store and strip it for replacement pads (see above for info on identifying such keyboards). Note: If you're stranded on a desert island with only your computer and a screwdriver, you can get the important keys working again by using pads from the numeric keypad, which is usually in good shape because it's not used very much. ---> OK, I've got all of the necessary items, what are the repair steps? 1. Remove the keyboard from its enclosure. Place on an open workspace. Putting a pad of some type underneath may help avoid marring of the keycaps, but in any case be careful to prevent static discharge if your keyboard model has ICs on the PCB. A ground wrist strap is recommended. Lock up the cats. 2. With the keyboard face-down, remove all of the screws on the back of the PCB (there are a lot!) Don't worry, nothing is going to fall apart when you remove the PCB. 3. Remove the PCB. Place to the side. If it shows any signs of dirt on the contact side, you'll want to clean it with a non-residue, non-lubricating contact cleaner. 4. Identify pads that need replacement. If you're replacing all of the pads, you can skip this step. First, look for any foil circles that are damaged. Then, while looking down the length of the keyboard on the back side, press each row of keys and make sure that each foam pad protrudes sufficiently and cleanly out the back of each key plunger. The most-typed keys are the first to go (return, space, A, E, etc.) When in doubt, replace a pad -- that's a lot of screws to remove to do this over again! Replace pads one at a time. 5. Carefully remove the keycap and spring. There are actually keycap removal tools available, but whatever you use, just make sure to pry from both sides at once, not just one side. Don't bend the key sideways. 6. Holding the keyboard perpendicular to the table, place the Philips screwdriver into the back of the key plunger and push gently to pop the plunger out the other side. 7. Pick up the plunger. Remove the foam cylinder by inserting a fingernail under the foam cylinder's clear plastic circle. A tiny bit of leverage and it'll pop out. 8. Put the replacement foam cylinder in place. Gingerly use the very small standard screwdriver to pop the clear plastic circle into the plunger by pressing around its outside edge. Be careful not to damage the foam or the foil circle. 9. Replace the plunger in the keyboard chassis. 10. Replace the spring and keycap. Use the very small standard screwdriver to press on the edge of the bottom of the plunger to firmly seat the key cap. 11. Repeat as necessary. Note: If you're skilled at delicate work and have various sized tools available, you can probably replace the foam pads from the back without removing the keycaps, but this is not recommended for beginners. From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 17:48:55 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: News from Apple Message-ID: Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? (sorry, mostly off-topic but, hey, it's STEVE JOBS!!!) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu Thu Jul 10 18:57:34 1997 From: bill at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: Updates Message-ID: Hi all. A lot of things have been significantly updated over the last few weeks. You may want to take a look. The web site (http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html) has been reworked somewhat. Brett's Classic Computer Encyclopedia (http://www.xnet.com/~danjo/classic/index.html) has grown quite a bit but could use some images (hint, hint, guys) Isaac's Classic Computer Rescue site (http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html) is looking good. The Links Section of the web site has nearly doubled (although I know you guys have more that you could cough up ;) Same with the FAQs section (once again - send me more) and the ClassicCmp FAQ has been HTMLized for your ease of reading. The document archive is online (although most listings are still being held under review). The Big List of Classic Computers now contains sections for Prototype and Limited-Run computers and for computers which more info is needed on. The FTP site has been indexed and divided up into sections for various computers - not a whole lot is there, a few faqs, articles, and pictures. Feel free to send more ;) (ftp://140.142.225.27/pub/classiccmp) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill@booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw@u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw From dougdu at MICROSOFT.com Thu Jul 10 20:34:31 1997 From: dougdu at MICROSOFT.com (Doug Duchene) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: PDP-11 simulator plus V5, V6, and V7 Unix Message-ID: Thought this might be of some interest to list members... - Doug > ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/DEC/sim/README > > This directory contains computer simulators developed by Bob Supnik > (bob.supnik@ljo.dec.com). > > In ./sources > > sim_2.2d.tar.Z - the simulator sources and documentation > > In ./software > > os8swre.tar.Z - sample OS/8 software and a user license from > DIGITAL > > rdosswre.tar.Z - sample RDOS software and a user license from Data > > General > > uv5swre.tar.Z - sample PDP-11 UNIX V5 software and a user license > from > SCO > > uv6swre.tar.Z - sample PDP-11 UNIX V6 software and a user license > from > SCO > > uv7swre.tar.Z - sample PDP-11 UNIX V7 software and a user license > from > SCO > From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 20:34:49 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB205767918@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt some feelings - but well hell - that's life! First from Enrico - > On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this > mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH > discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and > whys that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware > is narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider > "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as > an intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking > about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? No it is NOT wise! However - it is *as you said* understandable. Each person is a collection of feelings and memories, sometimes refered to as a *pile of the past*. Each of us has had different experiences in EVERYTHING we do. No two people view life the EXACT same way. Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting. (I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines. The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware. The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it, understanding it, and aquiring it. Now, if everybody on the list had an Apple, an Amiga, an Altair, an Imsai, a DEC 11/24, an IBM 360, two Commodore 64s, a BBC, etc,etc,etc THEN we might sit down and discuss the history. We can discuss it now - but I would rather be gathering all the hardware I can get my hands on NOW and think about the history. I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-) > As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and > plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they > managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your > hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future > generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I > will have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. As said before, we are all different. I will gladly discuss the history of computing. However, if I stray from why I think Turing was a genius to WOW I JUST GOT MY RL02 TO BOOT MY 11/23 - you will have to forgive me. I'm just that kind of guy. On the other hand tho - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I have seen the messages from you in the last two weeks and you have not mentioned *history* at all! You have mentioned the social and psychological impact of why we collect individual machines - it the same with cars - it the same with ANY collectable. But it is NOT what I call - History. Nobody NEEDS a twenty year old computer! Not in the USE sense - they NEED them to remind them of the good times in the past. That spark of WONDER or GLORY or FULLFILLMENT they got from that item. The same as ANY collectable. If you have no sense of wonder or glory or fulfillment - you don't collect for the sake of collecting - you are collecting for the ECONOMICS of collecting. On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness > we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism > of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary > Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg [snipped but saved] > becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped > from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. > > Kai Beautiful! I have not (except for Bill's bathroom story) been so wonderfully entertained and amused by posts to the list than this! You've gone up a notch in my book. Glenn Roberts wrote: > > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. Enrico replied Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just hardware OR history of the machines as well? Pint! Oh point 8-( I think Bill summed it up - go ahead - but don't *expect* anyone to discuss it with you. The list hasn't been around long enough to develop a *personality*. (Did I speak to late!?!?) The list doesn't HAVE a POINT. But the people on it do. We gather here and there in the faint glow of Cathode Ray Tubes connected throughout the world by the wonder of modern man - The Internet - and discuss computers that are older than 10 years. Some will never again be seen as useful. As some say - "They can have my DEC, when they pry it from my cold dead hands!" Some will use them, some will sell them, some will lurk in the dark corners, some will boil to the surface with an explosion of estatic joy and/or humor, some will solder little thingmajiggies together, some will droll on and on about some favorite piece of hardware or software, some will leave and others will come. It's called "community" - the one thing man has over all other animals. It isn't easy, and it isn't hard. There is give and take. Those who give constantly will be consumed, Those that only take - will eventually be bored. The problem - currently - is Enrico. You have not either explained what you want (I certainly don't understand) or what you want isn't here. If you can explain - in terms we can understand - I am sure that your desires can be fullfilled by this list as well as Sam's (sorry Sam - I see you as a hardware mogul - more more more 8-) It is usually best, I have found, to walk into a group and listen to what is being said. If an opportunity presents itself, interject a question. (I remember that you did this very well Enrico) Then if the current discussion recognizes your question, in a positive way, you should then be permitted to state your case. This did not happen! You should then wait for another opportunity. There is no rule that if someone shows interest, you can not start you OWN conversation. Just don't keep it on the list - take it to EMail. If something important is discussed in private EMail, by all means, if all concerned agree - put it on the list. This then becomes more than a single observation and then the impact upon the group has more weight. I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you who do make great deals (Sam Grrrrrr....) but it only makes me feel more or less - left out! I usually get one machine (my biggest haul was 12 clone motherboards - not even NEAR on topic!) and then gather all the info I can to get it to work the way it was supposed to. Then every six months I get antsy and fire them all up - just to make sure - and then spend another month getting them all to work right again. And two months paying off the electric bill. BUT - I DO want to know what everybody has! If I need help - I will know who to go to! Right now - I just fire out a question and get the responses. That is because this is a community. Things to remember - every community has a town drunk, a town clown, a town cop, and a town fool. It wouldn'tbe a community without them. BC From thedm at sunflower.com Thu Jul 10 21:33:00 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. On a subnote, you all are intelligent people, but man, I think some folks need to lighten up and enjoy the water. But I guess, one part of me just can't relate to, is the "cost of downloading" mail, but I suppose there are situations where that is a problem, me, I have a cablemodem, so im spoiled rotten. As far as knowing what we all have, maybe we should add to our rescue list, a non fancy, listing of what everyone has, not for trading, but just as a reference. Then when I'm at my next flea market...etc. I can say, "Hey, I know John dosn't have a Coco1, maybe he'd like one, it's 2 bucks, Heck, I just grab it." Cya in the funny papers. Bill G. ---------- > From: Brett > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View > Date: Thursday, July 10, 1997 8:34 PM > > > First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to > get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt > some feelings - but well hell - that's life! > > First from Enrico - > > > On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this > > mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH > > discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and > > whys that led to it. To just limit the discussion to the mere hardware > > is narrow minded and shows the kind of attitude which leads to consider > > "the other" (the one which begs to differ) as an enemy or at least as > > an intruder. The "dont' bother us as we know what we should be talking > > about" attitude might be legal and understandable but is it wise? > > No it is NOT wise! However - it is *as you said* understandable. Each > person is a collection of feelings and memories, sometimes refered to > as a *pile of the past*. Each of us has had different experiences in > EVERYTHING we do. No two people view life the EXACT same way. > > Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason > is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting. > (I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two > years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because > someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines. > > The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware. > The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it, > understanding it, and aquiring it. > > Now, if everybody on the list had an Apple, an Amiga, an Altair, an Imsai, > a DEC 11/24, an IBM 360, two Commodore 64s, a BBC, etc,etc,etc THEN we > might sit down and discuss the history. We can discuss it now - but I > would rather be gathering all the hardware I can get my hands on NOW and > think about the history. > > I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that > Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-) > > > As already said here several times, computers are bits of metal and > > plastic. They are important for the sentiments and the feelings they > > managed to raise in each and everybody (and soul) of us. You keep your > > hardware (and I will keep mine so that I can leave it to future > > generations) but I will keep my principles and if this will mean I > > will have to do without you, then (I will be sorry but) be it. > > As said before, we are all different. I will gladly discuss the history > of computing. However, if I stray from why I think Turing was a genius > to WOW I JUST GOT MY RL02 TO BOOT MY 11/23 - you will have to forgive me. > I'm just that kind of guy. > > On the other hand tho - WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I have seen > the messages from you in the last two weeks and you have not mentioned > *history* at all! You have mentioned the social and psychological impact > of why we collect individual machines - it the same with cars - it the > same with ANY collectable. But it is NOT what I call - History. Nobody > NEEDS a twenty year old computer! Not in the USE sense - they NEED them to > remind them of the good times in the past. That spark of WONDER or GLORY > or FULLFILLMENT they got from that item. The same as ANY collectable. If > you have no sense of wonder or glory or fulfillment - you don't collect > for the sake of collecting - you are collecting for the ECONOMICS of > collecting. > > On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > You're absolutely, terribly correct. In our benighted shortsightedness > > we have been ignoring the core, the soul, nay, the very existentialism > > of the historical man-machine interface and the personal hygiene of Gary > > Kildall. These bits of metal and plastic have become a zen-like cyborg > [snipped but saved] > > becoming no more than Waldos while Charles Babbage's heart is ripped > > from his chest by ravens dark as toner, eight claws upon each talon. > > > > Kai > > Beautiful! I have not (except for Bill's bathroom story) been so > wonderfully entertained and amused by posts to the list than this! > You've gone up a notch in my book. > > Glenn Roberts wrote: > > > > I for one certainly support Bill's efforts to keep this list on target. > > Enrico replied > > Yes, agreed, BUT the pint being made here is WHICH is the target? Just > hardware OR history of the machines as well? > > Pint! Oh point 8-( > I think Bill summed it up - go ahead - but don't *expect* anyone to > discuss it with you. The list hasn't been around long enough to develop > a *personality*. (Did I speak to late!?!?) > > The list doesn't HAVE a POINT. But the people on it do. > > We gather here and there in the faint glow of Cathode Ray Tubes connected > throughout the world by the wonder of modern man - The Internet - and > discuss computers that are older than 10 years. Some will never again > be seen as useful. As some say - "They can have my DEC, when they pry it > from my cold dead hands!" Some will use them, some will sell them, some > will lurk in the dark corners, some will boil to the surface with an > explosion of estatic joy and/or humor, some will solder little > thingmajiggies together, some will droll on and on about some favorite > piece of hardware or software, some will leave and others will come. It's > called "community" - the one thing man has over all other animals. It > isn't easy, and it isn't hard. There is give and take. Those who give > constantly will be consumed, Those that only take - will eventually be > bored. > > The problem - currently - is Enrico. You have not either explained what > you want (I certainly don't understand) or what you want isn't here. If > you can explain - in terms we can understand - I am sure that your desires > can be fullfilled by this list as well as Sam's (sorry Sam - I see you as > a hardware mogul - more more more 8-) It is usually best, I have found, to > walk into a group and listen to what is being said. If an opportunity > presents itself, interject a question. (I remember that you did this very > well Enrico) Then if the current discussion recognizes your question, in > a positive way, you should then be permitted to state your case. This did > not happen! You should then wait for another opportunity. There is no > rule that if someone shows interest, you can not start you OWN > conversation. Just don't keep it on the list - take it to EMail. If > something important is discussed in private EMail, by all means, if all > concerned agree - put it on the list. This then becomes more than a > single observation and then the impact upon the group has more weight. > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you > who do make great deals (Sam Grrrrrr....) but it only makes me feel more > or less - left out! I usually get one machine (my biggest haul was 12 > clone motherboards - not even NEAR on topic!) and then gather all the > info I can to get it to work the way it was supposed to. Then every six > months I get antsy and fire them all up - just to make sure - and then > spend another month getting them all to work right again. And two months > paying off the electric bill. BUT - I DO want to know what everybody has! > If I need help - I will know who to go to! Right now - I just fire out a > question and get the responses. That is because this is a community. > > Things to remember - every community has a town drunk, a town clown, > a town cop, and a town fool. It wouldn'tbe a community without them. > > BC From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 10 21:41:54 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <199707110241.AA28497@world.std.com> From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 21:50:20 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110241.AA28497@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > of the PC and later the XT! Amazing times, all history and mostly > forgotten. Like I said while on the boardwalk of atlantic sity in '76 > "crazy, who'd have thought I'd be pushing a asr33 down the boardwalk?". What a fantastic line! I love it! Is someone compiling a list of all the great quotes that occasionally bless this discussion? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 10 22:44:05 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View References: Message-ID: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Brett wrote: > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't this what collecting is all about? From jrice at texoma.net Thu Jul 10 22:58:21 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View References: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Message-ID: <33C5AF5D.ECF1544C@texoma.net> Marvin wrote: > Brett wrote: > > > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends > Haul". > > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the > neat > > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of > you > > I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one > thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it > helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the > future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available > > out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good > information > and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." > Isn't > this what collecting is all about? I've been guilty of posting my "Weekend's Haul" a couple of times. I like to know what other people find and what the are paying for it. Kind of a reality check against what I find around Dallas-Ft Worth. If somebody gets something I really want, I might write them and see if they want to trade or if it's really something they really want. I sometimes pickup something that I don't collect so I can help someone else out or trade for something I really want or "need". :-) I'm sorry if this offend someone, but I like to know who comes across unique hardware and even if I envy them, I'm also proud for them. As for the philosophy wars, if I don't really care about the "soul or zen" of computing, I don't have to read those posts....that is what a "delete" button is for! From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jul 10 19:20:00 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:14 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707110419.AAA29130@mail.cgocable.net> > Brett wrote: > > > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you I do not get bothered by this "boasting" I view this "This Weekend Haul" as a good reference point in which is how hard to find or easy to get as well as prices. I hauled in three compaqs recently. One is Deskpro 386 with either 287/386 coprocessor board version, both SLT laptop series, soon they will break the 1998/2000 year mark for 10 year limit. SLT 286 cost me 50 and SLT 386s/20 cost 120 with docking station. Planning to use them. My LTE 386s/20 is only 3 years away to 10 years in design only but only 4 years old since I bought it as discontnuined sale up for my use. My reasoning behind is I love them and it's quality, way it looked and operation. I have a IBM VGA 9" mono behind me is over 10 year old and still used as a bench monitor and nice thing, I babied it well to have no burn in on it, 150 bux *ouch!* used. Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well. Recently a association already issued several critations warning buyers not to buy certain models from them. Oh well. Back to subject. :) My electronic TTYs, Minicom 4 two of them are based on 8 bit microcontrollers and still speak bandot 5 bit via built in phone coupler. I use them for phone calls via relay services for hearing people otherwise, I do need relay if calling someone who has TTY on other end. Both of them are over 10 years old and still living. :) That shows 8 bitters stuff won't go away. :) Also one or few 8 bit microcontrollers are onboard Pathfinder and maybe on the rover on the Mars right now. A side note, 486 machines that came out in '89 will make to 10 years old limit too! What!? Just curious, what else besides 10yr limit rule, just to remind myself. :) Jason D. > > I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one > thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it > helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the > future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available > out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information > and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't > this what collecting is all about? > From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:21:31 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask > my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played > with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my > dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. Me too - Oops - I better write some more 8-) > As far as knowing what we all have, maybe we should add to our rescue list, > a non fancy, listing of what everyone has, not for trading, but just as a > reference. Then when I'm at my next flea market...etc. I can say, "Hey, I > know John dosn't have a Coco1, maybe he'd like one, it's 2 bucks, Heck, I > just grab it." > > Cya in the funny papers. Well, I, for one, kinda thought that is what it is all about. Kinda list some place what we might be looking for and then if someone finds one tell everyone else about it. Problem is - too many people want the same thing! Then (flame never on) Enrico started the whole shipping thing. What good is it to have people looking for some little prize if when they find it - they don't want to ship it to you??? So Isaac and I have started - a little - on a Shipping FAQ - not only how to ship from the cheapest to the quickest but also HOW to pack. I mean even the BIG stuff - like a DEC via South Africa 8-) I even started talking to U.S. Customs to find out their view on shipping *junk* back and forth over the Big Pond. (Still waiting to hear back 8-) But this has to be done on both sides. Then there is the whole Rescue List idea - what good is it to rescue ANYTHING from the trash man if you are not willing to ship it to a new home??? Oh, so you ONLY want rescue what you want? That isn't the idea I heard, but then I hear things my way 8-) As far as *John* and his Coco - heck ya $2 for the box and $14 for the shipping. Nobody expect you to pay either - I don't think. But then I don't remember what a whole CoCo looks like and I don't know how to even boot one up. Do you *trust* me to pick up a CoCo for you? Especially if it costs you $16 for a burned out hulk? No not me - the computer 8-) It raises all sorts of interesting questions. Maybe (via the Encyclopedia page) I would find out what one looks like. Something about it - that's why I started it 8-) [Boy am I verbal tonight!] BC From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 10 23:24:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, thedm wrote: > Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask > my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played > with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my > dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. I also collect for the sake of collecting. But I also collect stuff that I specifcally don't want but know I can make money off of. I won't try to justify it because I don't have to. But I will explain that it pays the collection bills (no not my outstanding debt but the debt that this hobby can put you in if you go ape-shit like I did). I can pick stuff up dirt cheap at swap meets and thrift stores and sell it on the internet for enough profit to break even on the hobby. It was the only way I could get my wife to tolerate it. (Just in case you're wondering I make it a point to sell stuff at cost on this discussion because, let's face it, we're all friends, and I don't like profiting from friends). (No, seriously). I don't think anyone should be embarrassed to admit that they sell classic stuff. Those who sell are basically performing a service to those who don't have access to what they are selling! This hobby takes time and energy. I fully intend to turn my hobby into one that will support itself. With stuff like my Vintage Computer Festival as well as my ultimate plans to become a dealer in "exotic antique computer hardware" (yeah right), I expect to start pulling in a little extra dough to make for a positive cash flow. Can't help it...it's the entrepreneur in me. I turn everything I do into a money machine. > On a subnote, you all are intelligent people, but man, I think some folks > need to lighten up and enjoy the water. But I guess, one part of me just Yep. Everyone just smoke a bowl and chill. > As far as knowing what we all have, maybe we should add to our rescue list, > a non fancy, listing of what everyone has, not for trading, but just as a > reference. Then when I'm at my next flea market...etc. I can say, "Hey, I > know John dosn't have a Coco1, maybe he'd like one, it's 2 bucks, Heck, I > just grab it." That's what I love about this discussion group. I can almost ALWAYS get information on a system I am interested in. Its a terrific resource and I value it, and I hope I am putting as much into it as I am taking out. As for the "what-I-have" resource list, I think this is a good idea but I know what a daunting task it can be to catalog your stuff, especially when you have a large collection. However, I am almost done doing just that with my collection. So far, I have a database that contains every singular console, peripheral, and board that is in my collection. Eventually I will HTML-ize it and put it up in a web page for people to browse. Items that are up for trade will be indicated and it will make it easy for people to trade with me and/or just see what I got. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:40:05 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110241.AA28497@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > >From Brett who doth spake: > > Collecting is! Ya but did I get it right?? > > Things to remember - every community has a town drunk, a town clown, > > a town cop, and a town fool. It wouldn'tbe a community without them. > > You forgot the town bag lady.... ;-) Allison, I read everything I find from you in every newsgroup I read. No joke. You are prolific 8-) > Seriously I've put may posts here anout the history and lineages of many > of the old machines. I collect, but I admit is has to make some sense to > me as in useful or have some specific linkage to my place in this > history. But this is a collectors list 8-) We all collect from that which we know. [snip] > Another of the battles than and now are the OS wars and the church of the > highest CPU. There is history in that. Todays machine are built on that. But is that a *good Thing*? It seems with Wintel anyway - you gain in speed with a horrendous memory loss. As someone stated - Loading WordStar under CP/M is blazingly fast - compared to Word in Office under Win95 8-) > Now from me, a woman that uses a Northstar* I souped up in in the very > early 80s to this day, along with an ampro LB, SB180, kaypro and a PX-8 > to do real work. I have memory of porting CP/M-1.4 and 2.2 for my > hardware. I also keep PDP-11s why? A personal thing about classicaly > good archecture that still runs rings around dos boxen. I muck with > PDP-8s too as there is a machine that is the minimalist design that > proves it could be done in less, but makes you work hard to program it > efficiently. Well, that's true. I always wondered why DEC couldn't sell PDP-11's - but then with that lousy chip set and poor software 8-) I still get pissed thinking about how DEC Marketing has messed up every attempt to get into the *home* market! > History, I've met Gary, and George and the boys at Intersystems and a few > others to boot. I wrote warm letters of annoyance to Gates, Allen and a > few others too before they were to big to not want my money. I remember > the guys that made claims and then ran with the cash never delivering. > I watched MITS rise with a calculator You mean the the 7440 I have on the desk next to me? > and then get swallowed by Pertec > when they out ran their cash, it was the story of the time. ^ forgot an 's' > I jumped on > the UCSD Pascal P-system becuase it wasn't Basic in '79. I was using > CP/M as it was a real OS for the systems as everything else was not yet. > I started an 8086 design in 1979 that would in 81 eclipse the performance > of the PC and later the XT! Amazing times, all history and mostly > forgotten. Not if you tell people about it! > Like I said while on the boardwalk of atlantic sity in '76 > "crazy, who'd have thought I'd be pushing a asr33 down the boardwalk?". > That was right after hearing Gary talk about v1.3 and the introduction to > 1.4.... and think it was only 21 years ago. Something isn't it. You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we all have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? BC From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:49:47 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Brett wrote: > > > > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". > > I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat > > stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you > > I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one > thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it > helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the > future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available > out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information > and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't > this what collecting is all about? That is why I chose the word *perturbed* 8-) And if your in California with Sam 8-) there is nothing left! Really, I don't *enjoy* reading them but you are right. I think if someone actually made a study, you could get some interesting geographical and soci-economical data from the "Weekend Haul" posts. But I find that the rules of supply and demand still prevail. If there is only ONE TI99/4A for sale in town - the guy gets what he wants for it! But - maybe down in Texas - there may be 20 forsale and you can shop around. I love my computers but - money - well I ain't got enough 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 10 23:57:00 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AF5D.ECF1544C@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, James L. Rice wrote: > I've been guilty of posting my "Weekend's Haul" a couple of times. I > like to know what other people find and what the are paying for it. > Kind of a reality check against what I find around Dallas-Ft Worth. If > somebody gets something I really want, I might write them and see if > they want to trade or if it's really something they really want. I > sometimes pickup something that I don't collect so I can help someone > else out or trade for something I really want or "need". :-) Guilty? You are only guilty if they catch you 8-) AND can prove it! I agree with the reasons. Just - how come all of YOU are so lucky??? > I'm sorry if this offend someone, but I like to know who comes across > unique hardware and even if I envy them, I'm also proud for them. No! That's why I used the word *perturbed* 8-) No offense taken. > As for the philosophy wars, if I don't really care about the "soul or > zen" of computing, I don't have to read those posts....that is what a > "delete" button is for! Ah, but you are missing some of the fun 8-) I HOPE you read Kai's post! If you did - but didn't understand - maybe you should start reading some of those posts 8-) BC From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 11 00:10:53 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110419.AAA29130@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > I do not get bothered by this "boasting" I view this "This Weekend > Haul" as a good reference point in which is how hard to find or easy > to get as well as prices. Oooh another good word - bothered - I will use that later 8-) ["boasting" snipped 8-)] > my use. My reasoning behind is I love them and it's quality, way it > looked and operation. I have a IBM VGA 9" mono behind me is over 10 > year old and still used as a bench monitor and nice thing, I babied > it well to have no burn in on it, 150 bux *ouch!* used. > > Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for > quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq > and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well. > Recently a association already issued several critations warning > buyers not to buy certain models from them. Boy - DO NOT get me started on THIS subject! > Oh well. Back to subject. :) Good 8-) > My electronic TTYs, Minicom 4 two of them are based on 8 bit > microcontrollers and still speak bandot 5 bit via built in phone > coupler. I use them for phone calls via relay services for hearing > people otherwise, I do need relay if calling someone who has TTY on > other end. Both of them are over 10 years old and still living. :) > > That shows 8 bitters stuff won't go away. :) That is a given. 8 bitters rule. Even 16 bitters rule. Tho I do have some 4 bitters - they don't rule - they just barely survive 8-) There are probably more 8 bit MPU and CPU's in existance now than Intel CPU's. They are EVERYWHERE. Kind of like Candid Camera. Where you least expect it. Cars, phones, thermostats, elevators, games, man you name it - SOMEONE put a 6502/8085/6809 into it! > Also one or few 8 bit microcontrollers are onboard Pathfinder and maybe > on the rover on the Mars right now. THERE'S one classic I want to go for - Who's with me men??? We have until what - 2007 and then it's ours! Classic Computer Rescue Sqaud to the - huh - Rescue! (Scary thing is - may be we COULD go get it!) By the way - anybody into LDRS? > A side note, 486 machines that came out in '89 will make to 10 years > old limit too! What!? > > Just curious, what else besides 10yr limit rule, just to remind > myself. :) Is there another rule? BC From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 11 00:24:57 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View References: Message-ID: <33C5C3A9.3059@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > As for the "what-I-have" resource list, I think this is a good idea but I > know what a daunting task it can be to catalog your stuff, especially > when you have a large collection. However, I am almost done doing just Daunting is not quite the word that comes to my mind. I have about 1000 square feet of things I have collected over the years. Having just started to catalog it, I figure it will take probably close to 4 weeks of full time activity (and I can't spend full time on it) to sort, identify, and catalog the stuff. Of course, it is also becomes like Christmas every day that I go through things :)! From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 01:25:55 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5AC05.5D7C@rain.org> References: Message-ID: >Brett wrote: >> >> I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". >> I really don't have the time or inclination to read about all the neat >> stuff I DID NOT get. I understand the joy and amazement of those of you > >I, for one, enjoy reading about what other people pick up. For one >thing, it is nice to see what pricing other people are paying and it >helps put perspective on other freebee's/purchases I may get in the >future. It also gives a feeling for what computers/stuff is available >out there. These "Weekend Haul" reports give a LOT of good information >and insight other than just "look at the neat stuff I picked up." Isn't >this what collecting is all about? I couldn't agree more, one of the reasons I'm here is I'm hoping to find out what fair prices for the stuff I'm getting are. Especially now that I'm starting to look for the odder systems :^) I for one don't mind hearing about this weekends haul! Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 01:20:04 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707110230.VAA23122@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: >Actually, I collect for the sake of collecting, I make no money off it, ask >my wife :) I collect so in 10 more years, I can play with toys I played >with 20 years ago. That and to watch everyone freak when they see my >dinosaurs alive and feeding on a daily basis. I like this answere! I collect because it's fun, but it's even more fun when people are at work about their computers to mention a couple of mine. Like how I've got an Apple ][e (nonenhanced) set up to dial into work. It just blows their minds. Besides I like playing with the various OS's even though they are incredably basic, and some are BASIC :^) Also it's fun to see what kind of work you can get out of them! Then there is the obvious, I wanted them when I was younger and couldn't afford them :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jul 11 01:52:08 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: C65 and other commie oddballs... Message-ID: OK OK I can't take it anymore... Being partial to commodores, I can't help but DESIRE to own a C65! Anyone got one? Or better yet, anyone got one they'd sell???? On a side note, I was re-reading a review of the Amiga 4000 and the article mentioned a commodore palmtop that was based on a "PC/CHIP" cpu, had 2 megs of memory and ran Microsoft Works or somehting like that (Oh yeah, it had 2 PCMCIA slots too) I know this (probably) never made it to production but I also know that many a freaky contraption was hauled from the dumpsters when commodore went belly up... (C65's, 128 Laptops, etc.) So, anyone got any oddball commie stuff? LeS more@crazy.rutgers.edu PS I missed the supposed free-for-all that took place outside the commodore building in West Chester when they folded. I was just there not too long ago; apparently QVC has gutted the building.... :( From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Fri Jul 11 03:21:31 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: News from Apple References: Message-ID: <33C5ED0B.2ED1@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs > has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll > re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? > > (sorry, mostly off-topic but, hey, it's STEVE JOBS!!!) Offtopic? I though it has been made CLEAR that HISTORY is part of the ANYTHING of this list and therefore much to the topic......or is yet another of my English language misundertanding? enrico From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Fri Jul 11 04:02:37 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: book review Message-ID: <33C5F6AD.50CE@Brighton-UK.com> If you like the History of Personal Computers you might like to read my review of the Stan Veit book I just received from him. You will find it at: I know that the book has been published in 1993 but some of you (like me) might not have been aware of it till now. Stan has seen all the personal computer revolution from the inside as he opened the second computer store in the USA and the first on the East Coast (New York). Please forgive my spelling mistakes.... Thanks enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 11 08:00:55 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: c16/Plus4 Message-ID: <199707110901_MC2-1AB1-A032@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >User support here was either through PLUG (Plus/4 Users Group), or Jim Hehl in Anchorage. Plug provided a list of European distributors and Jim was into program conversion (Such popular 64 programs like Speedscript were converted).< Has anybody heard from Jim Hehl recently? Last I heard, he was burned out of his cabin by an Alaskan wildfire! That was probably 1-2 years ago now. Does he still produce for Jack Vanderwhite's publication? >The major bummer about European Plus/4 stuff is alot of it is compressed and locked into PAL mode and thus unviewable on NTSC displays. (Jim & Jack Vandewrwhite had converted some though, I think they are available on funet.fi's FTP., I think the series is called 'ceepee4' something...)< If this stuff is available somewhere, I'd be interested in a full address. Gil Parrish < From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 11 08:00:52 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: <199707110901_MC2-1AB1-A02F@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Remember, there are 400 of these HHCs available. Tell a friend!< Sorry, I just got here. What the heck are you talking about? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 11 08:27:03 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <199707111327.AA20567@world.std.com> > From: Brett > Well, that's true. I always wondered why DEC couldn't sell PDP-11's - b > then with that lousy chip set and poor software 8-) I still get pissed > thinking about how DEC Marketing has messed up every attempt to get int > the *home* market! You're pissed! I lost my job with them because they couldn't make money from a dimond mine! > You mean the the 7440 I have on the desk next to me? Never remembered the model number but likely, yes! > Not if you tell people about it! Drat you caught me. > You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we al I wish, I'm old enough. I finished college before the 8080 was introduced. > have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - > What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? Never happend to me. ;-) I get you have those, in there, and they all work? Allison From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 11 08:52:35 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans Message-ID: Jim: >>Sadly it gets a bit more contorted than that... Ed Roberts sold MITS to >>Pertec (who proceeded to largely run it into the ground B^{ ), who was >>then purchased by Triumph-Adler of Germany. >>So, it can be assumed that TA now owns all of the rights to things >>MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them on occasion on related matters >>and have gotten no response of any kind to date. Thanks for the history. One could probably claim that since the platform is no longer supported and that efforts to contact the rightful owner have failed, so long as we don't get "stupid" about it, we should be able to archive the docs...I hope. I'd hate to lose this important piece of information (although I will hold onto it and provide pages to members upon request). What a pain this copyright law is! Jim, re: the Hero 1000/2000 robots, where can I find Mobile Ed. Productions?? ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 11 08:52:28 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: Allison: >>Seriously I've put may posts here anout the history and lineages of many of the old machines. I collect, but I admit is has to make some sense to me as in useful or have some specific linkage to my place in this >>history. This is so true. In fact, this is how I started collecting. Admittedly, I don't remember many of the early computers; I was too young to remember any of it first-hand. When the Altair came out, I was 8; Bill Gates was 20. I only got to "know" Gary Kildall and Ed Roberts through the books that I read as background for my MBA business case on Microsoft and the computer software industry. Back then, I used the Commodores. In high school, I used {shudder} the Mac (and understood that better). In college, I used PCs, but didn't understand the architecture. I started collecting Commodores because this is the machine that I grew-up on. Then, it snowballed. The Tandy Model 1; Model 100; Datamaster; Apple IIs. Now, almost anything. Since I'm behind the knowledge power curve, I have a lot of catching-up to do! I love hearing about other people's hauls. It inspires me. It makes me want to take back more room in the basement than what was alotted to me by "the boss." It's about the elegant simplicity of design; the basic, nuts-and-bolts usefulness. It's about runnung an OS and an application in 4k of RAM. It's all about preserving the early computer history, so that people like me, people on the fringes of early computers, people who know nothing about where their P233 came from, can see what it was like in the stone-age of computing. Just my $0.02. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET e-mail: rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From s-ware at nwu.edu Fri Jul 11 09:13:01 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: Chicago mini rescue opportunity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The store where I found the Micro-Expander earlier this week has continued to clean out its old location and place systems out in front of the store free for the taking. There is currently a system in front of the store that is too large for me to handle, given my small car and limited apartment storage space. If any other Chicago area collectors are interested, the system is located outside the old location of Sol's Computer Works, at 2820 North Sheffield (about 1 block north of Diversey). It's a Cummins Allison 3400 keyscan system in a full-size rack cabinet with a 9-track tape drive. It seems reasonably complete. I did pick up yesterday's free system for my collection. It's a pdp11/10, complete with 16K words of core memory, an rk05j disk drive, and an rx01 dual floppy drive. It supposedly worked when last used, although I'm going to have to patch together some cables that were cut by the people who claimed the rack before I got there. There was no documentation, however. I'll probably spend the weekend looking through the PDP11 information that is available on the Web - there seems to be quite a bit. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu NUMS-MPBC Macromolecular Crystallography Resource UNIXgeek "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine..." - RFC 1925 From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 11 09:45:43 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <33C5C3A9.3059@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Sam Ismail wrote: > > > > As for the "what-I-have" resource list, I think this is a good idea but I > > know what a daunting task it can be to catalog your stuff, especially > > when you have a large collection. However, I am almost done doing just You gentlemen are completeing right... itemizing all of one's items in a collector can be a very difficult task. But here's the tip. Start early in your collections life. That's what I have done... started my inventory years ago, and now whenever I get new things I just 'pop' them into the computer listing. Of course, I still get behind (way behind?) on my listing... and it's grown to 68 pages of 8 point print!! CORD COSLOR > > Daunting is not quite the word that comes to my mind. I have about 1000 > square feet of things I have collected over the years. Having just > started to catalog it, I figure it will take probably close to 4 weeks > of full time activity (and I can't spend full time on it) to sort, > identify, and catalog the stuff. Of course, it is also becomes like > Christmas every day that I go through things :)! > From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 11 09:54:16 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! Message-ID: Ok Folks, here it is...the final count. Any last minute additions will be accomodated up until tonight so act soon. E-mail Name Qty ------------------------------ ----------------- --- dastar@crl.com Sam Ismail 4 allisonp@world.std.com Allison Parent 3 jeff@unix.aardvarkol.com Jeff Hellige 2 KFergason@aol.com Kelly Fergason 3 tuck6@ibm.net Gary Tucker 2 sinasohn@crl.com Roger Sinasohn 5 gram@cnct.com Ward Griffiths 3 bcoakley@teleport.com Ben Coakley 1 pcoad@crl.com Paul Coad 2 jimw@agora.rdrop.com Jim Willing 3 rcini@msn.com Richard Cini 3 hans1@filan00.grenoble.hp.com Hans Pufal 5 ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca Doug Spence 3 jott@maddog.ee.nd.edu John Ott 1 bwit@pobox.com Bob Withers 4 frank@5points.com Frank Peseckis 2 zmerch@northernway.net Roger Merchberger 3 ursa@idir.net ursa 4 rws@ais.net Richard Schauer 2 stuart@colossus.mathcs.rhodes.edu Brian Stuart 3 jlodoen@mega.megamed.com Jeff Lodoen 1 s-ware@nwu.edu Scott Ware 3 SUPRDAVE@aol.com SUPRDAVE@aol.com 1 jrice@texoma.net James Rice 3 bluesky6@netcom.com Benedict Chong 2 dynasoar@mindspring.com Kirk Scott 2 jolminkh@c2.telstra-mm.net.au Hans Olminkhof 2 mtapley@swri.edu Mark Tapley 1 scm@smorang.enm.maine.edu Stacy Morang 2 danjo@xnet.com Brett 2 haley@galstar.com Curtis Haley 1 george.lin@documentum.com George Lin 2 idavis@comland.com Isaac Davis 2 fmc@reanimators.org Frank McConnell 10 mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu Matthew Sayler 1 gpine@popmail.mcs.net Gerald Pine 2 kai@microsoft.com Kai Kaltenbach 2 jdgale@romulus.ncsc.mil Jeremiah Gale 1 tedbird@netcom.com Ted Birdsell 2 broswell@syssrc.com Bob Roswell 1 foxnhare@goldrush.com Larry Anderson 2 Current Total: 103 If you're not on here, better e-mail to me soon. If you tried e-mailing me and your message bounced, send it to the group discussion and you will be forgiven. If your e-mail address as shown is incorrect please send me your correct address. I also have gotten quite a bit of interest from my internet sale ad and as a result the price per each for all of you will likely be pushed down. If you don't know what the hell I'm blathering about, this is in regards to the Panasonic HandHeld computers (about 400) that we are making a deal on. It was a handheld unit which featured: 6502 processor 8K RAM (the "top-of-the-line" model) 3 slots for 8K program EPROM on-board 40-column thermal printer (paper can still be found allegedly) 26 character x 1 line display Full "QWERTY" keyboard FORTH-like language in ROM called "SNAP" Measures 9" x 3.5" These units also have: Custom built tray to hold 10 additional 8K EPROMS Tray also housed both computer and printer to make one compact unit Some MCM 68674 8K EPROMs with programs on them AC Adaptor Current price will be < $10 per unit! If you would like to reserve one (or two or three or ten), e-mail me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 11 08:59:12 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" Message-ID: <199707111602.JAA23351@mx2.u.washington.edu> Speaking of video games, I have 2 different sources which say that the first video game was 1)Pong 2) Asteroids. I personally believe asteroids, as the game (in my recollectopn, at least) used vector graphics, which should be faster and simpler than Pong's raster image. ...Or am I all wet? Anyone know? (Trivia -- What does "Pac" in Pac-man stand for? answer on request.) From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 11 08:49:02 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: classic software for sale Message-ID: <199707111602.JAA20970@mx5.u.washington.edu> Please send me a pricelist. Also, where (physically) are you? I'm in northern Ohio. Thx Manney From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jul 11 12:05:17 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: <199707111602.JAA23351@mx2.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jul 11, 97 09:59:12 am Message-ID: <9707111605.AA06009@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 458 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/ec39d2a0/attachment-0001.ksh From KFergason at aol.com Fri Jul 11 11:16:27 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: farewell and COCO question and Definicon stuff and simpson meter. Message-ID: <970711121521_505572322@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-11 10:29:07 EDT, you write: << On the contrary, I think that people are unsubscribing because in this mailing list about collecting Classic icons there is NOT ENOUGH discussion about the history of the computing boom and the hows and whys that led to it. >> I am sorry, but I was not aware that this list was about collecting classic computers. I thought this list was about classic computers, of which collecting is a part. I am not interested (well, not as much) in the "hows and whys". I want to find them, use them, fix them. I don't really collect them simply to collect. You might argue that I had to collect one to use it, but thats not necessarily the case. I could have bought my Kaypro new and simply still be using it. If this list IS about COLLECTING, then I will unsubscribe myself as well. On something more hardware related, I have a Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Controller, Cat. No 26-3129. I am assuming it is a disk controller, but can someone give me some confirmation on that? Also, if someone still needs the definicon board stuff, I finally got my PC back together, so I can read the 5.25" disks. And while I am babbling, not really classic computer, but classic test equipment related, I have a Simpson 303 that I have never been able to get to work. It seems to need the battery, and it is a rechargeable model. Kelly From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 11 11:02:13 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! Message-ID: <199707111622.JAA20620@mx4.u.washington.edu> Please reserve 2 handhelds for me -- thanks. Manney@nwohio.com From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jul 11 12:06:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Neither - The first arcade videogame was Nutting & Associates Computer Space, designed by Nolan Bushnell in 1971, who later designed Pong (1972) with the profits, and founded Atari. The first home videogame was the Magnavox Odyssey 100, in 1972. The first ROM cartridge-based home video game title is co-owned by the Fairchild Channel F and the RCA Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home video game was the GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex in 1982. Kai > ---------- > From: PG Manney > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 6:59 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: "Bally Astrocade" > > Speaking of video games, I have 2 different sources which say that the > first video game was > > 1)Pong > 2) Asteroids. > > I personally believe asteroids, as the game (in my recollectopn, at > least) > used vector graphics, which should be faster and simpler than Pong's > raster > image. > > ...Or am I all wet? Anyone know? > > (Trivia -- What does "Pac" in Pac-man stand for? answer on request.) > From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 11 12:24:30 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: Paper Tape Message-ID: <199707111324_MC2-1AB3-595E@compuserve.com> As most of you probably know, some of the old printing terminal (teletype) units could utilize paper tape; the tape could be punched with a program, and hence used as a program storage media. I'd be interested in getting a bit of the tape; not real long (say, 4-6 feet), just for show-and-tell purposes. "Already punched" would be better than "unpunched" ("unpunched" might just look like a roll of adding machine paper-- big deal), but I'd take either. If somebody has some of this to spare, please drop me a note e-mail; I'd appreciate it. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 12:20:18 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <33c76ad8.3720871@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:06:44 -0700, you wrote: %Neither - The first arcade videogame was Nutting & Associates Computer %Space, designed by Nolan Bushnell in 1971, who later designed Pong %(1972) with the profits, and founded Atari. The first home videogame %was the Magnavox Odyssey 100, in 1972. The first ROM cartridge-based %home video game title is co-owned by the Fairchild Channel F and the RCA %Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first %vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by %Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home %video game was the GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex in 1982. Recently, I found the history of video games at one of zdnet's sites : www.videogamespot.com/features/universal/hov/hov01.html where hov01.html can go up to hov10.html Don't know if the link is still value tho'. Ben From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jul 11 13:32:48 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: Paper Tape In-Reply-To: <199707111324_MC2-1AB3-595E@compuserve.com> from "Gil Parrish" at Jul 11, 97 01:24:30 pm Message-ID: <9707111732.AA06309@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/eec744e0/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Fri Jul 11 13:05:00 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first > vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by > Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my roommate playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint James Infirmary in Sunnyvale. -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From scott at saskatoon.com Fri Jul 11 12:58:33 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >> Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first >> vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by >> Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home > >I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my roommate >playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh >out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint James >Infirmary in Sunnyvale. I remember that machine too. (I don't remember the year, though.) It had a wonderful sub-woofer in the cabinet that you could feel when you hit the thrust button. It did take a while to get used to the controls though, five buttons, 'rotate left', 'rotate right', 'thrust', 'fire', 'hyperspace'. The interesting thing was you didn't play against the machine... only against another person. IIRC, you were given a fixed amount of time for your money, rather than '10 lives' or one game or whatever. ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 11 12:59:15 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: Modem Collection References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33c76ad8.3720871@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anything earlier or other type of device? From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Fri Jul 11 13:03:00 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057AD4B9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Yep, that was Cinematronic's excellent vector version of Space War, released in 1978. It was two-player only, and had several innovations, including the ability to shoot off part of your opponent's ship, and the selection of multiple game options at the start of your game (e.g. positive/negative gravity, invisible sun, etc.) The upright cabinet was huge, almost double-wide, but I would dearly love to come up with the cocktail version (http://brain.usask.ca/arcade/spacewar.htm) It'd be a nice complement to my Computer Space. Kai > ---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, July 11, 1997 11:05 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first > > vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by > > Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home > > I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my > roommate > playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were > fresh > out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint > James > Infirmary in Sunnyvale. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe > From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 11 13:03:04 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: "Bally Astrocade" In-Reply-To: <199707111602.JAA23351@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711140304.006b3538@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1888 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/b3518374/attachment-0001.bin From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 11 13:00:43 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.mi crosoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711140043.006b3538@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 05:06 PM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Neither - The first arcade videogame was Nutting & Associates Computer >Space, designed by Nolan Bushnell in 1971, who later designed Pong >(1972) with the profits, and founded Atari. The first home videogame >was the Magnavox Odyssey 100, in 1972. The first ROM cartridge-based >home video game title is co-owned by the Fairchild Channel F and the RCA >Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first >vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by >Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home >video game was the GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex in 1982. > >Kai IIRC, Odyssey 100 was a simple pong unit. The one you're refering to was just "Odyssey." James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 11 13:03:22 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:15 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970711140322.006b4784@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 06:05 PM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > >> Studio II, which were introduced simultaneously in 1976. The first >> vector graphic arcade game was Lunar Lander in 1979, followed by >> Asteroids later that year. The first (and only) vector graphic home > >I seem to recall spending many many hours (and quarters) with my roommate >playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh >out of the USAF back in 1978 and spending loose hours at the Saint James >Infirmary in Sunnyvale. >-- >Ward Griffiths You are correct. Space War was the world's first vector game in '78. Lunar Lander was Atari's first vector game. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Fri Jul 11 14:24:20 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jul 11, 97 10:59:15 am Message-ID: <9707111824.AA06615@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1131 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970711/434c6d2f/attachment-0001.ksh From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 11 13:24:48 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <199707111824.AA05818@world.std.com> > From: Marvin > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle > (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the > modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anythin > earlier or other type of device? Early modems were mostly acoustical as it was a way of avoiding the BELL TELEPHONE CO tarriff and interconnection restrictions. There were also direct connect bell103 is well known of them. They go way back, to the old rtty machines used during WWII maybe before. Yes, those would have vacuum tubes. The modem eliminators were rs232 or current loop to rs422 which could be used up to several thousand feet or more. These were not modems per se but level translators to a format that worked well on hard copper pairs at what would be then called high speeds (4800 ->38.4++). Allison From william at ans.net Fri Jul 11 13:39:35 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707111839.AA15270@interlock.ans.net> > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle > (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the > modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anything > earlier or other type of device? The earliest modems were actually for radio work, and started sometime in the 1930's. By the end of World War Two, FSK radio modems were used with radioteletype by the government. I have the receiver half of an early FSK modem, called model FRA by the U.S.Navy. Made by RCA, it is probably heavier than just about any home computer ever made (Of course the actual radio transmitter tips the scale at 1100 pounds). The transmitter half of the FSK set is just about as big, yet still eludes me. Later, both Teletype and Kleinschmidt teleprinters could be fitted with modems, either for radio or telephone use. The first ones are still fairly huge, but use transistors. Western Union was an early user of telephone modems, for use with type 33 teleprinters. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Fri Jul 11 14:00:50 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: IBM minis still humming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707111900.AA16959@interlock.ans.net> Yesterday, I finally received the chance to examine a family of computers that has been bugging me for a while. In the mid to late 1970s, IBM introduced a family of minis designed to kill the PDP-11, or so they thought. The series/1 is a bit different, in that they are not designed to run COBOL applications in a business environment. They are also very modular, something that other IBM offerings are not. I saw about 25 of the big beasts, all humming away at thier duties, and of course, now want one (love at first sight, it happens alot with collectors). Unfortunately, I am still lacking just about all technical information about the family. Has anyone on the list ever use one of these things? What operating system did it use? Just how good (or bad, probably) are these things? Oh, sorry about repeating the modem information! William Donzelli william@ans.net From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Jul 11 14:02:11 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <01IL40QDUZ5UB63OUK@cc.usu.edu> > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Wed Jul 9 21:54:58 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11-Jul-97, Sam Ismail wrote: >E-mail Name Qty >------------------------------ ----------------- --- >dastar@crl.com Sam Ismail 4 >allisonp@world.std.com Allison Parent 3 >jeff@unix.aardvarkol.com Jeff Hellige 2 Sam, Just wanted to point out that my email address above is wrong. It should be: jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com Thanks! Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 15:53:10 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Old Microprocessors Message-ID: <33c69abc.15979193@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Some days ago, I mentioned that there was a UK company that used to advertise old microprocessors like 9900, Z800x, 32032 and other stuff. I've just dug up my old issues of Elektor and found the company. It's Viewcom, at Plaistow in London. Perhaps Enrico might want to check if this company still exists and its tel/fax number: I've been looking for a 10MHz Z8001 (the one found in Ciarcia's Trump card project in Byte). The April 1991 issue of Elektor advertises Viewcom as carrying stuff like the 9900, 9995 (both TI 16-bit microP). There's even the AMD 9511 which (if I'm not mistaken) is one of the first math copros for microcomputers. Interestingly, there's another ad. for a little machine called the midi65, which uses a 6501 (the number was re-used by Rockwell for a dual-65C02-on-a-chip implementation) with LCD display. Of course, then there are the usual surplus ads from Display Electronics (VAX11/750 for 3900 pounds sterling and the Tatung PC2000 a big brother of the CP/M Einstein for 299 pounds sterling) and J&N BULL Electrical (which offers an Atari 65XE computer for 45 pounds sterling). Ben From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Fri Jul 11 16:47:36 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057AD4B9@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3E97909704D2@ifrsys.com> Kai Wrote: > The upright cabinet was huge, almost double-wide, but I would dearly > love to come up with the cocktail version > (http://brain.usask.ca/arcade/spacewar.htm) It'd be a nice complement > to my Computer Space. ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ I played Computer Space when I was a kid. What's inside? Is it random logic, or a CPU based design? Jeff From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jul 11 16:41:58 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: Marvin's message of Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:59:15 -0700 References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2057A3FA5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> <33c76ad8.3720871@smtp.ix.netcom.com> <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707112141.OAA15169@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Marvin writes: > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I have a few, but not what I would call "early". An old Omnitec 701A (s/n 3) acoustic coupler that I used to use with a Teletype ca. 1978 (still worked when I tried it about a year ago, too). Also some S-100 modems, including a couple each of PMMI MM-103 and Hayes Micromodem 100, and what I am guessing is an earlier (1978) effort by D. C. Hayes called the 80-103A. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. It depends. They may also provide clock signals for synchronous DTEs (as would ordinarily be done by the modems). -Frank McConnell From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Fri Jul 11 18:54:57 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <01IL40QDUZ5UB63OUK@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... Hmm; I just picked one of these up with an incomplete Apple ][plus system that I haven't yet had time to muck with, short of cleaning it up a bit. What's special about it? ok -R From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 17:54:54 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <2536@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. I've got a few (I'm interested in telegraph and telephone history as well as computers, but my main collection is computer-related). It's not a large part of my collection, though. In the UK, modems were _rented_ from the GPO (== post office, who also ran the telephone system) at one time, like all other telephone equipment. Some of these modems are interesting technically - the earlier ones were about 14" square and 6" high, and contained plug-in modules for the PSU, modulator, demodulator, and controller. It was all discrete components (no chips), and some of the control used PO 3000-style relays (similar to the ones used in telephone exchanges). The demodulator was strange. It filtered the incoming signal (a multi-stage LC filter housed in a tobacco-tin sized box!), and then mixed it with a local oscillator to shift the frequency up. The output of that was filtered again, and fed to a 2-diode discriminator. The output of that was buffered and became the data output. It was basically a superhet FM receiver modified to work at the right frequency. Another strange GPO modem was the 13A. It's a 1" (approx) high plinth that was fitted under a Type 746 'phone that had extra 'voice' and 'data' buttons fitted. I know nothing about the circuitry in that one, but it's a rather neat unit. There were also things called 'isolation boxes' that were used to prevent faults in the user's equipment damaging the modem (or worse still the 'phone line). Typically they contained a number of zener diodes from each line of the RS232 connector to ground (2 diodes in inverse series per line), and some 50mA fuses in series with each line that would blow if there was overvoltage on that line. Such things are probably useless now, but I like to have all the bits of a classic setup, including little details such as this. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe The term 'modem eliminator' normally meant 'null modem cable', and was a passive device. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 18:31:14 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2538@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > First - if you don't want to hear my opinion - stop now! I am going to > get pretty detailed about what the list is/should be about. I may hurt > some feelings - but well hell - that's life! Is it time to start a classic computers meta-list to discuss what should be on the classic computers list ? > Currently, this list is set on the aquistion of hardware. One reason > is to get it before it's GONE. Another, is the ECONOMY of collecting. > (I buy it for 10 and sell it for 15 Sam 8-) The point being, in two > years, if we did nothing - you may NEVER be able to buy it because > someone junked it! Nothing wrong with making hay while the sun shines. Absolutely. In some cases, the number of remaining machines of a particular type can be counted on the fingers of one hand - in unary :-). If we don't grab them when we can, then information on these machines will be lost for ever. > > The history of computing doesn't lend itself to the IMMEDIACY of hardware. > The history of computing IS. There is no cost in learning it, > understanding it, and aquiring it. I think I disagree here. It's a lot easier to figure out the history of a machine while the people who used it for real work (and even better the people who designed/built it) are still alive, and can still remember the machine. So there's some urgency here, but less than the 'Here's a 1-off prototype that will go in the skip if you don't get it today' type of thing. A lot of computer history, particularly over the last 20 or so years has not (IMHO) been adequately recorded. What I'd love to see would be complete documentation on all the classic computers - how the hardware worked, how the software worked, when it was introduced, why it was introduced, what went wrong, what should have been done differently, what was good about it, etc. But to do that for just _one_ machine would be a major undertaking (I've tried writing some hardware docs, and it takes a long time!). But some of that info is likely to die with the _designers_, not with the machines, alas. > I would probably die if someone wanted to give me the Intellec MDS that > Gary wrote CPM on. That is too much to hope for in this world 8-) Aside : It's probably possible to find a similar machine (although not _THE_ one) if you hunt for long enough. I've found an CS8i and an MDS800 second-hand. > I also get a little perturbed when people state "This Weekends Haul". The main reason I get little from these messages is that the situation is very different in different countries (Acorn machines are lot easier to find in the UK than in the States, while CoCo3's are almost unknown over here). And of coure prices are very different as well. > BC -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 18:43:25 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2539@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > of the old machines. I collect, but I admit is has to make some sense to > > me as in useful or have some specific linkage to my place in this > > history. > > But this is a collectors list 8-) We all collect from that which we know. Not necessarily. I've bought things at radio rallies (hamfests) because 'it looked interesting'. Only later did I discover what I really had. If I'd always waited to find out what a particular item really was, then I'd probably have missed all the interesting stuff, and have a totally trivial collection. However, it does help to have some idea as to what things are. And to know what they look like from all angles :-) > You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we all > have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - > What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? Yep, got a load of them. Taking a trolley piled high with computer parts across Cambridge on a weekday afternoon is good for that :-). Or the time I carried a DEC Rainbow on a train - VR201 in one hand (using the built-in handle), CPU under the other arm, and keyboard in my pocket. Dismantling the CPU mid-journey (it needs no tools) added to the amusement. Then there was the time I carried an IBM PC/AT box on a train. It got the comment 'That's one hell of a laptop' :-). Or the time I was carrying a Creed 7E (baudot printing terminal) and was asked if I had a pen. My reply was 'no, but I have a teleprinter' :-) Still, what's wrong with being slightly mad? > > BC > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 19:00:40 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2540@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > Enough of this blathing...anyway, you got my idea. I buy them for > > quality even they're outragously outdated. The newer ones even Compaq > > and Toshibas, Sony is now showing QC problems and sunk down as well. > > Recently a association already issued several critations warning > > buyers not to buy certain models from them. > > Boy - DO NOT get me started on THIS subject! Nor me. One of the reasons I use classics is that they're so well made and so reliable. A few weeks back I mentioned at a computer club that a new hard disk that I'd run for less than 25 _hours_ was already giving me trouble but that a 25 _year_ old minicomputer on the same desk was still going strong. > That is a given. 8 bitters rule. Even 16 bitters rule. Tho I do have > some 4 bitters - they don't rule - they just barely survive 8-) Err, don't forget the HP Saturn, which is used in almost all their calculators (including the HP48). That's a 4-bit machine at the hardware level (and sort-of 64 bit at the software level - strange chip). And I've found 4 bit microcontrollers in keyboards, 1-line displays, disk drives (not the controllers - but handling the stepper motor, drive ready, that sort of thing), and probably more besides. > There are probably more 8 bit MPU and CPU's in existance now than > Intel CPU's. They are EVERYWHERE. Kind of like Candid Camera. Where Don't forget the Microchip PIC (which has an 8-bit ALU and 12 or 14 bit instructions). Those turn up in just about anything nowadays. There's even one in my Laserprinter.... > you least expect it. Cars, phones, thermostats, elevators, games, man TV's, VCR's, CD players, monitors, IR remote handsets, toys, etc... > you name it - SOMEONE put a 6502/8085/6809 into it! Or an 8048, 8051, ST6, PIC, COP4, COP8, 7810, or something custom. > BC -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 19:09:41 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: FAQ addition: Repairing Capacitive Keyboards Message-ID: <2541@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB20578947C@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > REPAIRING CAPACITIVE KEYBOARDS > v1.0 7/10/97 Kai Kaltenbach > > ---> What are capacitive keyboards? > > The vast majority of capacitive keyboards were and are manufactured by > Keytronics of Spokane, Washington. The mechanism is really quite > simple. A keypress pushes a foil circle onto the surface of a printed Note that the foil (actually a metal layer) is on the inside surface of a plastic disk on the end of the key plunger. It doesn't actually make contact with the PCB > circuit board, thus completing the circuit and registering the keypress More correctly it increases the capacitance between 2 tracks on the PCB. > to the computer. Capacitive keyboards are very reliable; however, they > will fail over time even if unused. > > Each foil contact circle is backed by a cylinder of PVC foam. The foam > is subject to environmental deterioration. Once the foam loses its > elasticity or dissolves entirely, the keys will stop working because the > foil circles will no longer make good contact with the PC board. > Various classic computer systems, such as the Processor Technology Sol, > exhibit this problem after their 20+ year lifespan. I've once seen a fault where the metal layer vanished, leaving the foam intact. No idea what happened, but it didn't work, of course. > > ---> How do I tell if I have a capacitive keyboard? > > Just remove a key cap -- if there is a separate spring under the key > cap, around the plunger, it's extremely likely that it's a capacitive > keyboard. They won't always say Keytronic on the outside of the > keyboard housing. These keyboards are _everywhere_. I've seen them 'made' by PERQ, Apricot, Acorn, Tektronix, FTS, and probably more. The only problem is that some of those are classics in themselves, and probably shouldn't be raided for spares. > > ---> What do I need to start a repair job? > > First you need a set of replacement foam pads. Each foam pad is a > cylinder about 1/4" in diameter and 3/16" long. There is a semi-rigid > clear plastic circle attached to one end of the pad, and a foil cylinder > attached to the other end. > > The only toosl you'll need are a #1 Philips screwdriver and a very small > standard screwdriver such as those pen-clip types frequently included in Every Keytronics keyboard I've dismantled has needed a smaller Phillips screwdriver (size O?) to remove the PCB from the keyframe. > computer tool kits (plus whatever tools are necessary to remove the > keyboard from its enclosure). > > ---> Where do I get replacement pads? > > If you're a perfectionist, you can order replacement pads from Keytronic > Corporation (http://www.keytronic.com/). However, it's much easier to Seriously? Do they do other spares as well. There's a couple of custom chips (see below) in almost all of these keyboards, and a source of spares would be handy. > simply find a capacitive keyboard in your local computer junk/surplus > store and strip it for replacement pads (see above for info on > identifying such keyboards). -----> So, What are the Custom Chips ? There are, in general 2 off 20 pin custom chips in a keytronics keyboard (some later ones have a single 40 pin chip, but I know nothing about that). 22-908-3B 8-channel sense amplifier 1 : Row 0 2 : Row 1 3 : Row 2 4 : Row 3 5 : Reset/sync output 6 : Row 4 7 : Row 5 8 : Row 6 9 : Row 7 10 : Ground 11 : Out 7 12 : Out 6 13 : Out 5 14 : Out 4 15 : Out 3 16 : Out 2 17 : Out 1 18 : Out 0 19 : Reset in 20 : +5V Outputs are believed to be open-collector 22-950-3B keyboard column decoder/driver. 1 : Col 8 2 : Col 9 3 : Col 10 4 : Col 11 5 : Latch Clock 6 : Select 0 (LSB Input) 7 : Select 1 8 : Select 2 9 : Select 3 10 : Ground 11 : Sync Input 12 : Col 0 13 : Col 1 14 : Col 2 15 : Col 3 16 : Col 4 17 : Col 5 18 : Col 6 19 : Col 7 20 : +5V -tony From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 11 19:24:26 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <2540@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <2540@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33c6ce0f.11525717@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:00:40 GMT, you wrote: % %Nor me. One of the reasons I use classics is that they're so well made and %so reliable. A few weeks back I mentioned at a computer club that a new %hard disk that I'd run for less than 25 _hours_ was already giving me trouble %but that a 25 _year_ old minicomputer on the same desk was still going strong. It really depends. No doubt minicomputer HD were reliable, but the early MFM stuff for PCs were shitty to work with. %Err, don't forget the HP Saturn, which is used in almost all their %calculators (including the HP48). That's a 4-bit machine at the hardware %level (and sort-of 64 bit at the software level - strange chip). It's a pity that a lot of the custom uProcessors were never really publicly documented. That includes the ones found in the Sharp Basic calculators. %Or an 8048, 8051, ST6, PIC, COP4, COP8, 7810, or something custom. Or the F8 which later became the 3870 (I think). Ben From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 11 19:47:37 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: My Datamaster Troubles...     Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number:  "09" and I'm assuming that this is a hardware failure code.     I have the "Diagnostic" diskette, but since I think that the floppies are not working (or the diskette is now bad), it's useless.     I've done the usual things like cleaning and reseating boards and cables, with no effect.     Any clues?? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 11 20:16:02 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Old Microprocessors Message-ID: <2556@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <33c69abc.15979193@smtp.ix.netcom.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Some days ago, I mentioned that there was a UK company that used to > advertise old microprocessors like 9900, Z800x, 32032 and other stuff. > > I've just dug up my old issues of Elektor and found the company. It's > Viewcom, at Plaistow in London. > > Perhaps Enrico might want to check if this company still exists and > its tel/fax number: I've been looking for a 10MHz Z8001 (the one found > in Ciarcia's Trump card project in Byte). They're still going. Viewcom Electronics, 77 Upperton Road West Plaistow London E13 9LT England. Retail Shop 139 New City Road Plaistow London E13 9PX England Telephone : 0181-471-9338 Fax : 0181-552-0946 I've dealt with them, and had no problems. If you intend to collect your order, 'phone first, and they'll sort the bits out for you. > > The April 1991 issue of Elektor advertises Viewcom as carrying stuff > like the 9900, 9995 (both TI 16-bit microP). There's even the AMD 9511 The TMS9995 is still listed at \pounds 69.85 (OUCH!) Z8001B is \pounds 11.96, Z08001-10PSC is \pounds 16.90. The other devices you mentioned are no longer listed, alas. > which (if I'm not mistaken) is one of the first math copros for > microcomputers. Indeed it is. I have a CCS 8711 card for the Apple ][ that uses this chip. > Ben -tony From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 11 20:38:44 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970711183955.537ffbcc@ricochet.net> At 09:24 PM 7/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >dirt cheap at swap meets and thrift stores and sell it on the internet >for enough profit to break even on the hobby. It was the only way I >could get my wife to tolerate it. (Just in case you're wondering I make I'm the same way, or at least, I would be, if I could bear to part with anything! 8^) >it a point to sell stuff at cost on this discussion because, let's face >it, we're all friends, and I don't like profiting from friends). (No, likewise. If I've got something I don't think is of interest here, I'll put it on the AuctionWeb and let it go for whatever the market will pay. Otherwise, (like the PCjr? carts, which I need to post a message about) I'll just let things go for what they cost me. >Eventually I will HTML-ize it and put it up in a web page for people to I'm working on mine, slowly but surely! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 11 20:38:54 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970711184005.52efae42@ricochet.net> At 11:58 AM 7/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >>playing a vector graphic arcade version of Space War when we were fresh >five buttons, 'rotate left', 'rotate right', 'thrust', 'fire', >'hyperspace'. The interesting thing was you didn't play against the Perhaps you're thinking of a later game wherein you could have two players at the same time with either separate ships, or linked ships. Sorta like asteroids in that you had to avoid/shoot various things on the screen. It had the rotate left/right buttons. There was another that used a rotating knob to control rotation; the story was it was a combat training simulation, but I can't remember the name. That was a fun one. (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Fri Jul 11 20:38:57 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? Thanks in advance! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 11 20:41:28 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View In-Reply-To: <199707111327.AA20567@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > From: Brett > > Well, that's true. I always wondered why DEC couldn't sell PDP-11's - b > > then with that lousy chip set and poor software 8-) I still get pissed > > thinking about how DEC Marketing has messed up every attempt to get int > > the *home* market! > > You're pissed! I lost my job with them because they couldn't make money > from a diamond mine! But was it all marketings fault? Even IBM tripped up a couple of times. I remember when Xerox tried and failed as well. I think all the Big Boys failed the first times. They are just to - structured - to handle fast changing demands of the market. I hope you worked on say the 350? Rainbow??? [Infinite resources should NEVER be ignored 8-)] > > You mean the the 7440 I have on the desk next to me? > > Never remembered the model number but likely, yes! 14 digit display, scientific notation and unlimited nesting of parens. Also had a side box - I think the 7441 or was it 7450 that would store 1000 program steps. > > Not if you tell people about it! > > Drat you caught me. > > > You must have been - what - 8 years old 8-) Great story! I think we > > I wish, I'm old enough. I finished college before the 8080 was > introduced. Well, so did I! Of course - I didn't graduate 8-( Something about my birthday being #3 on The List and not - quite - carrying a passing grade average - ah - to be young and foolish again when Man walked on the Moon. [Aside - I thought ALL women stopped having birthdays at 29???] > > have one of those - where everybody kinda stares at you - wondering - > > What the Hell is THAT? What are you doing with that - THING? > > Never happend to me. ;-) I get you have those, in there, and they all > work? Well, I would have to get a bigger Ampere Feed if I turned on everything at once. As I said before, I turn them on once or twice a year. Have to test the AC during the summer and reduce the Gas bill during the winter 8-) But I would also like to have them all running. I just can't handle that many keyboards at once. My P&J is a 11/23 with a Simga controller and a Decmation CPM board. You oughta try writing Turbo Pascal programs on that and a Televideo terminal. Which reminds me - did you ever play with the NBS Pascal on the DEC equipment - DECUS tape. Pretty neat - Pascal that could compile itself. BC From scott at saskatoon.com Fri Jul 11 20:48:43 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: >At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, >computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > >When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. >crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent >players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. >It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got >a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio >Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. I think that was RS. I had one of those too. Got pretty boring pretty quick, cause you could fake down, go up three times and spaz on the forward button for a guaranteed first down every time. (or was it a guaranteed TD? I can't remember.) I wish I still had the thing, I think I eventually took it apart to 'see how it worked.' ;-) ttfn srw From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Fri Jul 11 19:50:49 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <199707120050.UAA07641@unix.aardvarkol.com> At 06:38 PM 7/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. >crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent >players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. >It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got >a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio >Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. Yes, I remember these quite well...they made the most annoying 'blips' and 'beeps'! I don't recall who made them or what they were called, though I believe Coleco made something like it at one time. I remember they were really popular when I was in junior high, about 1979-80 or so and that the teachers must have had quite a collection of similar games the way they were always confiscating them! I also had a fairly neat blackjack handheld at about the same time. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jul 11 16:57:34 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199707120157.VAA21976@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 18:38:57 -0700 (PDT) > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Uncle Roger > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Classic Video Games > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? I did remember that! I found a way to crash it! There's a bug in it. :)) Jason D. > > Thanks in advance! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 11 21:24:25 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: Uncle Roger, etc: In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? Until next time, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? > > Thanks in advance! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jul 11 17:34:53 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199707120234.WAA25662@mail.cgocable.net> One comment, Is the display looks like it was using same LED display, "hair thin" segments under the plastic lens? Jason D. > Uncle Roger, etc: > > In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I > certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different > companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I > believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar > company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look > around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE > and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through > it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or > two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were > on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic > full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? > > Until next time, > > CORD > > //*=====================================================================++ > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || > || Classic computer software and hardware collector || > || Autograph collector || > ++=====================================================================*// > > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > > > > > From thedm at sunflower.com Fri Jul 11 21:45:51 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <199707120243.VAA18585@challenge.sunflower.com> Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Classic Video Games > Date: Friday, July 11, 1997 5:34 PM > > One comment, > > Is the display looks like it was using same LED display, "hair thin" > segments under the plastic lens? > > Jason D. > > Uncle Roger, etc: > > > > In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I > > certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different > > companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I > > believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar > > company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look > > around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE > > and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through > > it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or > > two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were > > on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic > > full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? > > > > Until next time, > > > > CORD > > > > //*=====================================================================++ > > || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || > > || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || > > || Classic computer software and hardware collector || > > || Autograph collector || > > ++=====================================================================*// > > > > > > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > > > > > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > > > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > > > > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > > > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > > > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > > > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > > > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > > > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > > > > > Anyone else remember this? Know what it was called? Got one you'd part with? > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > > sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." > > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ > > > > > > > > > > > > From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 11 21:51:59 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: OOPS - Explorer 85 - Encyclopedia Entry Message-ID: Well I forked it up! My ISP was working on an upgade and I was editing *someones* entry for the Explorer 85 on the Encyclopedia web page. Suddenly, when I saved it, Error - no free pace on device! So I thought Ok, I will just :q! OOPS it's gone! Now normally I save a copy for reference - pp back to pine - Error - OOps that's gone too! Who ever placed the page - huh - you want to email me the particulars and I will enter them??? BC From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jul 11 22:30:43 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970711233041.00b421c0@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, thedm (and others) happened to blather: >Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason >they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. [big snip] Coleco was mentioned... My brother had a Coleco back in the Jr / H.S. daze... which was pretty eazy to win. From what I remember, the LED's could be controlled with two brightness levels, the brighter ones were you, and the dimmer ones were the badguys. I stumbled across it about a year ago or so, while moving... Not sure if my brother or I ended up with it (---Still unpacking--- :-( ) but it still worked at last check. This is one of those things that I took apart as well... but it actually got back together and still worked! ;-) Trivia: On the Coleco, there was a 6-tone "good sound" -- touchdown, methinks. It went something like this (bad replica of staff to follow :) --------o-----o-- ----------------- -----o-----o----- ---o------------- -o--------------- Anyway, there was an episode of Hart to Hart (Robert Wagner & Stephanie Powers... remember?) that used those sounds for automatic door openers / security system at a millionaire/billionaires house... I remember hearing that, and saying so. No-one believed me until I went and got the game and started playing it... then the family was mad that I was making noise during the show! But at least I proved my point. ;^> Have fun, and get ready for my next post! See ya, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 11 22:27:08 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970711233041.00b421c0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: That is the exact touchdown tone mentioned below for the Coleco game I was refering to!! That is amazing! What's even more amazing is that you too associated that tone to the Heart to Heart show!!! I figured I was the only one that made that associated. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Whilst in a self-induced trance, thedm (and others) happened to blather: > >Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason > >they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. > > [big snip] > > Coleco was mentioned... My brother had a Coleco back in the Jr / H.S. > daze... which was pretty eazy to win. From what I remember, the LED's could > be controlled with two brightness levels, the brighter ones were you, and > the dimmer ones were the badguys. > > I stumbled across it about a year ago or so, while moving... Not sure if my > brother or I ended up with it (---Still unpacking--- :-( ) but it still > worked at last check. > > This is one of those things that I took apart as well... but it actually > got back together and still worked! ;-) > > Trivia: On the Coleco, there was a 6-tone "good sound" -- touchdown, > methinks. It went something like this (bad replica of staff to follow :) > > --------o-----o-- > ----------------- > -----o-----o----- > ---o------------- > -o--------------- > > Anyway, there was an episode of Hart to Hart (Robert Wagner & Stephanie > Powers... remember?) that used those sounds for automatic door openers / > security system at a millionaire/billionaires house... I remember hearing > that, and saying so. No-one believed me until I went and got the game and > started playing it... then the family was mad that I was making noise > during the show! But at least I proved my point. ;^> > > Have fun, and get ready for my next post! See ya, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, > Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* > zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. > From zmerch at northernway.net Fri Jul 11 23:19:39 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: He shoots! He Boots! Heath Lives! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970712001937.00a44650@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Stacy C. Morang happened to blather: >On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> H-120-1. I'm assuming this is the model number. >It is. Uh... Update, folks! (and I gotta name this thing now... how about "Heather"... 8-) Get it?!? It boots! Did I mention that it came with one floppy disk stuck in the bottom drive? This floppy was a boot floppy! And it still works! Joy! ;-) >> Something tickled in my brain about those floppies, so as I lumbered around >> in the dark in my newly-begun clean-ish basement (Eeeeek!) I found my old >> non-working Atari 810 disk drive... and the mechs looked almost exact! >> Would these happen to be the same mechanically, would anyone know? > >Probably not, the Z (or H) used standard SA-455? 360K ibm pc style drives You're right, but they seem to format to only 320K (8 sectors/track, not 9) with the DOS I do have, which is listed in the stats of the machine I listed below... The broken drive *does* work! It's only the door that's broken, so I sacrificed my Atari 810 (which was dead anyway) and the garage door from it is exact! Yiippee! >Top, I think. (I have one, but I only got it for the Winchester drive >card). Whaddya did with the rest? A few spare parts might be nice (or a color tube, if yours had it... ;-) >That is the monitor rom, and certain keys should do something more >interesting, like > >C - color bars (if you have color video, otherwise b&w bars) >B - boot prompt, pressing the right combo of numbers and fkeys selects >the boot drive. > >D - dump memory I don't doubt your memory, but I think this is a (prolly earlier) version of the monitor rom... specs to follow. I fat-fingered *all* the keys on it, and here's what works: B -- boots. Accepts parameters of: 0, 1, 2, 3, and that tells it what floppy to boot from. Plain B assumes floppy 0, which is top. Thanks! All else beeps with invalid parameter, except "S", which appears to do nothing. Would this be boot from the serial port, perchance? V -- Version of the monitor rom, which is Version 1.02. Nothing else worked... >It will boot off of CP/M, MP/M, UCSD P-System, Concurrent CP/M, MS-DOS >and others. If you find a generic version 1 or maybe 2 ms-dos it might >boot, pc specific PC dos won't. This thing came with a Version 1 Dos... here's the specs of the boot: Z-DOS / MS-DOS BIOS Release 1.00 Version 1.02 Z-DOS / MS-DOS Release 1.00 Version 1.25 (C)Copyright 1982, Zenith Data Systems Z-DOS / MS-DOS Command Release 1.00 Version 1.19 >The machine has an 8088 and an 8085 processor, and uses the appropriate >one for the os in question. I've pulled 'er apart to fix the floppy, and to clean the keyboard & all. Sure enough, it has a NEC 8085A plastic, and an Intel 8088 like-eprom-whatever-you-call-it case. It presently has 128K RAM in it! Questions: 1. Whilst it's all apart, does anyone want me to snap pictures? I can... 2. How high can this rascal go in memory? I located 3 banks (9 each -- parity) of 64kx1 300ns DRAM, two of which are populated. Mathmatically, that works to: 128K RAM. The third bank is empty. Can I pop in 9 more chips without setting any jumpers/dipswitches? How about bigger DRAMS? (prolly not... but it's worth an ask!) Still, 192K is still pretty good for a machine from '82! (also, on the question of jumpers... anyone have a tech-like manual for this thing I could get a copy of... or at least a copy of the important pages?) 3. The video board which is based on the Motorola 68A45P video chip, presently has 64K onboard for *just* the green section of the board. This rascal can handle 192K Video Memory!!! Funky! ;^> (that is, if I'm reading the boards right.... but CHKDSK doesn't return the added video memory, so that'd seem correct.) Does the board support any form of graphics? I tried the standard basic commands (ZBasic was on the floppy) but it seemed only to work in text. For this thing having 2 Intel-based processors, I'm surprised with the amount of Motorola logic in this rascal! Prolly a 3rd of it is Moto, including the 74 series chips! All of the important support chips, like the video processor, the PIA's & UARTS, and all that jazz seem to be Moto. Well folks, I havta say: This is one *sweet* machine! :-) >I'm not sure what the licensing requirements are, however, I do have >several OS's for the machine - I'm sure something can be worked out. Did Heath/Zenith bundle an OS with the disk systems? If so, wouldn't I own a license to own a copy of the included OS, as I own the machine? I'm not sure how stuff like that works, especially on the old stuff. >You're welcome, pity I'm so far behind in the mail... >-stacy No prob... I'm behind as well, as you can plainly see! >So long, and keep your stick on the ice. Ohhh, brrrr! I hope yer' talkin' Hockey!!! ;^> Thanks again, and have a good weekend! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From rws at ais.net Sat Jul 12 01:28:43 1997 From: rws at ais.net (Richard W. Schauer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: help with NCR 1203-6000? Message-ID: I may have a chance to get a NCR Model 1203-6000 (it's about one step from abandonment). It appears to work and run both CP/M-80 and MS-DOS. On the serial number sticker it lists its manufacturer as NCR GmbH- am I to assume this may mean it is of German origin? My questions are, has anybody heard of this machine? Does anyone have any info on it? Is it even a classic? Thanks, Richard Schauer rws@ais.net From marvin at rain.org Sat Jul 12 01:56:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Fridays Haul References: <3.0.32.19970712001937.00a44650@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33C72A74.1812@rain.org> I met with a friend of mine who had a garage and yard full of computer stuff and was invited to take what I wanted. I wanted it all :), but I don't have the room. I ended up with three HP 9123 disk drive units, one HP 9122 unit, a Tandy 1000, Zenith Data Systems XT of some sort (Mod. ZW-151-52), an ACC Bridge/Router, an old style Compaq Deskpro 386, and some other miscellaneous stuff. The Zenith only has the CPU card and I think there should be a couple of proprietary cards in that unit but I don't recall for sure. BUT, it looks like that CPU card is the same one in the Zenith portable I have that is missing the ROMs. Now when I have time, I can blow new EPROMS and try out the portable! I should add all of the above at no charge. Oh, I also got a floptical drive that is supposed to be good. As I was talking, one of the things I was looking for was a DMA Systems and he Tomorrow is the Santa Barbara Amateur Radio club Bazaar and besides the Spectragraphics CAD setup, there is a Kaypro II, a Commodore 128, a LOT of PS/2 stuff, and a number of the old AT style computer cases with ?????. I talked with a local non-profit who will take any PC computer stuff that doesn't sell so at least some of it is saved from the BIG dumpster that will be sitting there. From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Sat Jul 12 01:13:51 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: 1975 PE Altair Article Scans References: Message-ID: <33C7209F.3B32@Brighton-UK.com> Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: I'd hate to lose this important piece of > information (although I will hold onto it and provide pages to members upon > request). Could you suplly me with the pages scan. Thank you very much. Enrico P.S. If you need anything this side I will, of course, endeavour to do my best to help you. ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:16:39 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: A couple people have asked about shipping costs. I hadn't quite thought about it until last night. Everyone should be aware that they will be paying the shipping costs both to and from me (or whoever is a distributor). Here's the current plan: I will have all the units either sent to me or get some volunteers around the country to have a bunch of units sent to them. I am assuming Mike will not want to handle shipping to each person. I will ask but I seriously doubt it. So anyway, he's in Jersey and I'm in California, and shipping will be a maximum if all are sent to me. Therefore, I would like all the units with a west coast destination sent to me, all with a mid-west destination sent to ???, southwest destination sent to ???, east coast sent to ???, etc. From there they will be individually packed and shipped out. So therefore we get hit with double shipping charges. Shitty I know. I figure total shipping costs will be $4 for a single unit, $5 for a couple, etc. Not sure exactly. I realize the shipping costs may not be what some people bargained for so at this point I would ask that if you want to or need to back out, please do it soon. I am going to try and negotiate a lump sum for the total units that will hopefully bring the cost per unit to $7. That's what I'm shooting for. Stay tuned. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:39:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <33C673A3.6EA5@rain.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > I have several devices that are called modem eliminators and I believe > these are basically serial cable boosters to increase the permissible > cable length. My guess is that the earliest modems were accousticle > (sp?) modems where the coupling was where the phone was laid onto the > modem rather than a direct connect to the computer. Was there anything > earlier or other type of device? I always run into big ugly old modems that are, alas, what I draw the line at as far as collectible. I find these at swap meets, thrift shops, surplus shops, etc. They are everywhere, and it seems just about everyone made one. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:30:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? Message-ID: Ok, saw three things of interest today. First, I saw a set of boxes from some Scottish company. One was called the PAM computer and simply had some red LED displays on the front to display numbers. Another was FINANCIAL ANALYSER and another still was, oh, forgot. Weird. Anyone ever heard about these? They seemed to be boxes for doing calculations, or displaying results of formulas? Also saw and picked up this Convergent computer thingy. Pretty cool. It has modules that plug together. One is the PROCESSOR module, then there's the EXPANSION DISK module. The boxes which make up this "computer" fit together via this bus and then there's this lever you use to lock the boxes together. Seems I forgot to pickup the Processor module (paid for it but forgot to get it). I also saw some dumb terminals for this system at a thrift shop (they are gone now). Anyone have any info on this? Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. The proprietor of the place I was at made me put it back because apparently it has all the store's financial records back a few years. I offered to copy all the data off for him and pay him good for it but he flat-out refused. Very frustrating. I plan on bugging him about it everytime I go back. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 03:50:06 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <01IL40QDUZ5UB63OUK@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... Are you referring to the AppleCat? That was an awesome modem. It could do MF, tone-detection (with an add-on chip) and could also play 3-voice music through the phone (or was it 2-voice)? I have a Novation modem called the AutoCat 212 which is a piece of dung. I swear to almighty god that this thing produced line noise based on my brain wave activity. Now check this out, if I was looking at the modem, it would start spewing line noise. If I would look away when it was transferring data, it would work fine. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Very weird. And frustrating. I had to put up with dirty file transfers and modem sessions for about 3 years until I finally got another modem (couldn't afford a nice 2400 baud). Anyway, it was a 1200 baud, no DTMF dialing (only pulse but not hayes compatible, you had to write a special driver for it since no terminal software on the apple seemed to support it) or you had to manually dial. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 04:03:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 02:03 PM 7/11/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Depends on your definition of "videogame" (coin-operated, home unit, > computer, commercial, etc.) One of these should fit what you're looking for: > > When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. I remember that. It was cool. My brothers would never let me play it but I finally got to and couldn't figure it out at first but when I did I realized it was pretty fun. However, if you were fast enough with your fingers, you could always score a TD on the easy mode. I believe it was made by Coleco? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 04:08:22 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <199707120050.UAA07641@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > At 06:38 PM 7/11/97 -0700, you wrote: > > >When I was in high school, there was a precursor to the Lynx/Gameboy/etc. > >crowd that was a football game. There were little red LED's(?) to represent > >players, and you had up, down, and run buttons to control the quarter back. > >It was very simplistic; you basically just ran the quarterback until you got > >a touchdown (but I think you could do a fieldgoal?) Anyway, I think Radio > >Shack sold one, but it may have been someone else. > > Yes, I remember these quite well...they made the most annoying > 'blips' and 'beeps'! I don't recall who made them or what they were called, If you've ever heard that one Fleetwood Mac song, you'll recognize the "tackle" sound in one part of the song where he sings "So digital" and then you hear "blrrrp blrrrp". Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ampage at geocities.com Sat Jul 12 06:46:28 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Panasonic HandHeld Update and FINAL COUNT! References: Message-ID: <33C76E93.EA48A8D1@geocities.com> I'd like to reserve a Panasonic. I thought I did earlier, but I guess it didn't go through. Thanks From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 12 07:59:37 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:30:12 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199707121259.FAA09709@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to > be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like > one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up > close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen > built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. A Morrow Pivot. Portable, battery-operated MS-DOS machine; I'm not sure how IBM-compatible it is. Made by Vadem in Milpitas, OEMd by Morrow as the Pivot, Zenith as something (think they sold a bunch to the IRS), Osborne as the Osborne 3. Keep your eyes open, there are others out there. I've seen one at Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a bogus price for it, something like $100. -Frank McConnell From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jul 12 08:18:46 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam and all: This little blurb might frusterate all of you out there, but the message Sam posted below has GOT to be the funniest little bit I've read in a while. I'm still laughing!!! It's 8:20am here, just woke, and, geesh, I had to read what he said about 'mental telepathy' two or three time to believe what I saw... and like I said, I'm still laughing. Goofy, huh?? Thanks for the chuckle, but for some reason.... I DO BELIEVE YOU!! CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > > > > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > > > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > > > > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > > Are you referring to the AppleCat? That was an awesome modem. It could > do MF, tone-detection (with an add-on chip) and could also play 3-voice > music through the phone (or was it 2-voice)? I have a Novation modem > called the AutoCat 212 which is a piece of dung. I swear to almighty god > that this thing produced line noise based on my brain wave activity. Now > check this out, if I was looking at the modem, it would start spewing > line noise. If I would look away when it was transferring data, it would > work fine. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP. Very weird. And frustrating. I > had to put up with dirty file transfers and modem sessions for about 3 > years until I finally got another modem (couldn't afford a nice 2400 baud). > Anyway, it was a 1200 baud, no DTMF dialing (only pulse but not hayes > compatible, you had to write a special driver for it since no terminal > software on the apple seemed to support it) or you had to manually dial. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Sat Jul 12 08:38:01 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Also saw and picked up this Convergent computer thingy. Pretty cool. It > has modules that plug together. One is the PROCESSOR module, then > there's the EXPANSION DISK module. The boxes which make up this > "computer" fit together via this bus and then there's this lever you use > to lock the boxes together. Seems I forgot to pickup the Processor > module (paid for it but forgot to get it). I also saw some dumb > terminals for this system at a thrift shop (they are gone now). Anyone > have any info on this? Yep. I just picked up one of these systems myself, last weekend. I'm still a bit baffled as to what can be done with it, but I have boxes of software and manuals yet to work through. Bill Giurnius has been helping me out; between the three of us we can probably end up somewhere useful. When you go back for the processor module, see if they've got an extra power supply lying about; I'm still one short. (: Anyway; this machine is Intel based (Mine's one of the first and is an 8 MHz 80186; Bill says that Convergent carried the technology through the 80486) and that bus on the side is called 'Xbus'. It runs a multiuser OS called CTOS which is now owned by Unisys. Apparently, CTOS still has an active (but obscure) development effort behind it, although I'd put it at about the same level as System/36 development. Business oriented, expensive software. Basically, a salvaging the last scraps of your hardware investment sort of deal. Not useful for a hobbyist, anyway. It could run a network of up to 48 machines, by chaining 24 machines to either of two RS422 ports. My box is apparently licensed for standalone use. There is also a 'Miniframe' that Convergent produced, and I've had more luck finding info on. I get the impression, though, that it's more of a standard PC-type box than the modular ones that you and I have stumbled on to. I have the Miniframe FAQ version 0.7 on my box here, in postscript form. I haven't read it yet. The ASCII version I found was only at version 0.3 and not particularly helpful. ok -r From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 12 09:23:47 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: References: <1.5.4.16.19970711184008.52ef7798@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Several dozen different Football Handhelds were made. There's a good Handheld page which includes a FAQ at http://www.best.com/~cdyer/ We had one of those vibrating football games, what a joke :) I also vaguely remember in the early 70s a neighbor having some football game where you made your plays and inserted some plastic disc into a unit that would tell you how the play went like a sports announcer. At 02:24 AM 7/12/97 +0000, you wrote: >In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I >certainly do remember that game. There were actually a couple of different >companies or stores that sold them. Radio Shack did have one, but I >believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar >company. I know up until a few years ago I had one... I'll have to look >around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE >and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through >it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or >two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were >on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic >full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? > >Until next time, > >CORD James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From enrico at Brighton-UK.com Sat Jul 12 06:17:11 1997 From: enrico at Brighton-UK.com (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: News from Apple References: Message-ID: <33C767B7.6142@Brighton-UK.com> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs > has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll > re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. Perfectly ON TOPIC (I think...) enrico From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jul 12 10:58:16 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <970712115815_137593820@emout14.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-12 07:42:02 EDT, Sam Ismail writes: << If you've ever heard that one Fleetwood Mac song, you'll recognize the "tackle" sound in one part of the song where he sings "So digital" and then you hear "blrrrp blrrrp". >> actually, it's supertramp. =D david From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:36:56 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:16 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707121259.FAA09709@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 12 Jul 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > Sam Ismail writes: > > Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to > > be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like > > one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up > > close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen > > built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. > > A Morrow Pivot. Portable, battery-operated MS-DOS machine; I'm not > sure how IBM-compatible it is. Made by Vadem in Milpitas, OEMd by > Morrow as the Pivot, Zenith as something (think they sold a bunch to > the IRS), Osborne as the Osborne 3. Nope. I've got a Pivot. This was nothing like the Pivot. It was close to the shape of an Osbourne and it was beige. It was close to the dimensions of a tower case only it sits horizontally. > Keep your eyes open, there are others out there. I've seen one at > Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a > bogus price for it, something like $100. I got mine for free. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jul 12 12:18:08 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707121745.KAA15610@mx5.u.washington.edu> > %but that a 25 _year_ old minicomputer on the same desk was still > going strong. > > It really depends. No doubt minicomputer HD were reliable, but the > early MFM stuff for PCs were shitty to work with. Depends on the HDD. Some (such as the ST-225) were el cheapo products (cheap at the time, compared with more expensive ones -- I have a 1984 adv't, listing ST-225's at $400; ST-251 at $600!)...IBM's Xybec controllers were slow, tho' I don't know how reliable. Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus inviting problems. From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:52:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <970712115815_137593820@emout14.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-12 07:42:02 EDT, Sam Ismail writes: > > << If you've ever heard that one Fleetwood Mac song, you'll recognize the > "tackle" sound in one part of the song where he sings "So digital" and > then you hear "blrrrp blrrrp". >> > > > actually, it's supertramp. =D Oh, yeah. I knew I got that wrong. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:51:46 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: <33C767B7.6142@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > Well, have you heard? Gilbert Amelio has stepped down and Steven Jobs > > has taken on an "expanded role". Interesting. Perhaps they'll > > re-introduce the Apple ][ line...perhaps the Apple IV??? > > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. You may be right but you're also wrong. Wozniak semi-retired from Apple and didn't do any development on the Apple ][ after 1983 or 1984 (something like that). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 12:43:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > > Also saw and picked up this Convergent computer thingy. Pretty cool. It > > has modules that plug together. One is the PROCESSOR module, then > > there's the EXPANSION DISK module. The boxes which make up this > > Yep. I just picked up one of these systems myself, last weekend. I'm still > a bit baffled as to what can be done with it, but I have boxes of software > and manuals yet to work through. Bill Giurnius > has been helping me out; between the three of us we can probably end up > somewhere useful. I got actual hard drive modules so I'm curious as to what's stored on them. > When you go back for the processor module, see if they've got an extra > power supply lying about; I'm still one short. (: There were two at the thrift shop I frequent but those went with the terminals they belonged to. If I'd only known I was going to run into this thing... I'll see how many power supplies they got. I only saw the one, and I left it there as well! I'll be going back next weekend. I thought this was a pretty mundane box. Glad I got it. Seems real neat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 12 14:14:29 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: HHC UPDATE Message-ID: Ok, just spoke to Mike. Here's the deal: Haven't gotten a price yet. He's concerned about shipping since these units will be coming from Canada. Each unit weighs a little over 5 pounds with the cpu, printer, tray and power supply. This is a little more than I expected. He's going to try to have the units shipped in bulk directly to the volunteer distributors. (So far Kirk (dynasoar) has volunteered to be an east coast distributor. We need a mid-west, southwest and possibly southern distributor. Please e-mail me if you wish to volunteer.) Shipped in bulk, the shipping per unit on the first leg will not be that significant. Its when you only have 1 or 2 coming to you on the 2nd leg of shipping that will be significant with relation to the price of each unit. I would say expect to pay upwards of $15 per each unit after shipping. Again, if you did not anticipate this and want to or need to back out, please do so soon. Mike said it will take him a week to coordinate everything with the company that has the units, so no new news until late next week...sorry. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From spc at armigeron.com Sat Jul 12 14:52:23 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? Message-ID: <199707121952.PAA14910@armigeron.com> I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? Secondly, from the same source, I can get a Compac Portable I XT with harddrive and memory upgrade, ethernet 3/comm and AST 5250 emulation (some mainframe terminal?), again all in working condition, but from what I hear, it's portable in the term that yes, you can lug the entire setup. Third, for anyone that is interested (you pay shipping, plus maybe a few extra bucks - whatever you think it's worth) the following are also available: 10M HD for an IBM 360 Monroe (possible) "bookkeeping machine" Underwood typewriter (manual) (unknown) manual adding machine I'll be hearing more about this stuff on Monday. -spc (Is getting more stuff than he knows what to do with ... ) From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 14:50:37 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For $200 I got a VAX from a business that went under. It's a VAXserver 3100, with VMS 5.3 on it. I have no idea what to do with it, this is the first time I've ever seen VMS. I have a 50-user liscense. When I boot it up, it seems to wait forever for DECWindows to get DECnet or something... Someone please explain what this is and what it can do. Any help appreciated. This had an IP number, so it may be on the Internet if I can make it work... From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 14:54:21 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and does anyone know what all the plugs on the back do? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 15:00:12 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And, I need a username and password to log into it. What's the VMS equilvalent of root? From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 15:14:37 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As I have no username/password, I can't shut it down right! How do I shut down VMS without losing the harddisk? Can I just power it off? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 16:57:18 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:14:37 pm Message-ID: <9707122057.AA08585@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1946 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/ba2e4e5a/attachment-0001.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 15:58:00 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122057.AA08585@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: > If you're buying 3100's for $200, I've got a pile of about 16 in my > living room... :-) Street price for a 3100/30 with 16 Megs of RAM > is about US$100. Of course, video and/or disk options can substantially > increase the value. How about VMS 5.3 with a 50 user liscense? Would that increase the value much? :) thanks > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:09:29 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The model number is DJ-31CP2-A -A01 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 17:17:02 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:58:00 pm Message-ID: <9707122117.AA07493@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 743 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/2f198b9d/attachment-0001.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:19:12 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122117.AA07493@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Unfortunately you don't actually have the license. Transferring a > VMS license requires paperwork with DEC and a $300 fee. > > Fortunately, "hobbyist class" licenses are now available from DEC > for free, if you're a US DECUS member. This doesn't cover layered > products or clustering, but it's a start. See http://www.montagar.com/ > under the "OpenVMS hobbyist" for more information. Does this mean I have to nuke the harddisk? I don't have $300. Or does it really matter? From dlw at neosoft.com Sat Jul 12 11:32:16 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> References: Message-ID: <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> I was just checking out a new store near me and saw an HP 9836. Anyone know anything about this? It looked like a one piece setup with a built-in monitor and 2 5 1/4" floppy drives and keyboard. It was BIG. Can anyone tell me about it? I also saw an HP 86 with lots of carts plugged into the rear and an HP 9816 monitor and HP 9121 3 1/2" dual drive unit. I'm talking to the guy about picking these up so if someone can give me some info on them I'd appreciate it. He had an Apple IIe with 2 Disk IIs, Apple Imagewriter printer and Apple monitor with doc. I may grab that as well since I can never have too many Apple IIs. :-) Finally, I saw talk here recently about IBM external 5 1/4" floppy drives. Someone said something about using one on an Amiga I think. If this is possible please let me know as he has several. There were stacks of monitors, including a HUGE Apollo monitor, wish he had the system for it. This is at a local computer store and he says they get stuff like this in all the time and generally just have someone come in and haul it off to the dump or salvage the metal. Oh boy, a new source! I'm going to go back and spend a little time in their warehouse. Thanks for any info. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:28:35 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122117.AA07493@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: Got the OpenVMS FAQ, and we're in. Good deal. Thanks. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 16:39:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Curious... How is a PDP-11/23 compared to a 486SX/33? About how many percent is the PDP of the 486? About how many percent of the 486 is the VAX? Just curious. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 18:07:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 04:39:01 pm Message-ID: <9707122207.AA08775@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 570 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/f9ffc90e/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 12 18:19:27 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707121745.KAA15610@mx5.u.washington.edu> from "PG Manney" at Jul 12, 97 01:18:08 pm Message-ID: <9707122219.AA08830@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 906 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/50399ac4/attachment-0001.ksh From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jul 12 08:56:45 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707121745.KAA15610@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On 12-Jul-97, PG Manney wrote: >Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus >inviting problems. Yes, but in my experience these Seagate drives were real workhorses. I had less problems with them, other than when they got bumped too hard while moving a system, than with most other types of MFM/RLL drives. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Sat Jul 12 18:05:46 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > On 12-Jul-97, PG Manney wrote: > > >Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus > >inviting problems. > > Yes, but in my experience these Seagate drives were real workhorses. I had > less problems with them, other than when they got bumped too hard while moving > a system, than with most other types of MFM/RLL drives. I opened one to see what was inside, and spun it up. I turned the XT off when I heard the grinding noise. Sealed it back up, fired up Norton, and it didnt lose 1 byte of data! From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jul 12 18:21:45 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! Message-ID: <970712192144_1790558026@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-12 19:18:47 EDT, DA Seagraves put forth: you might want to post about it on comp.sys.dec newsgroup. i asked for some info there on my uVAX ][ i got recently, and got some really good info from the regulars there. there's a faq also, try ftp'ing to digital and look around. i know there's one there. << For $200 I got a VAX from a business that went under. It's a VAXserver 3100, with VMS 5.3 on it. I have no idea what to do with it, this is the first time I've ever seen VMS. I have a 50-user liscense. When I boot it up, it seems to wait forever for DECWindows to get DECnet or something... Someone please explain what this is and what it can do. Any help appreciated. This had an IP number, so it may be on the Internet if I can make it work... >> david From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 12 19:06:24 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers View Message-ID: <2623@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > It's a pity that a lot of the custom uProcessors were never really > publicly documented. That includes the ones found in the Sharp Basic > calculators. Some of the Sharp ones were documented - There are Technical reference/machine language manuals for (at least) the PC1500 and PC1350 families - I have both of them. Sharp service manuals (yes, they exist as well) contain schematics/pinouts but little (if any) machine code information. > Ben -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 12 19:38:26 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <2626@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > I was just checking out a new store near me and saw an HP 9836. > Anyone know anything about this? It looked like a one piece setup > with a built-in monitor and 2 5 1/4" floppy drives and keyboard. It > was BIG. Can anyone tell me about it? I can't tell you much about it, although if it's the machine I am thinking of, the monitor is actually a separate box that locks in place. It's a 68000-based machine, and has GPIB as standard. SOme of them have a ROM board containing (I think) HP-basic, while others boot from floppy. > I also saw an HP 86 with lots of carts plugged into the rear and an > HP 9816 monitor and HP 9121 3 1/2" dual drive unit. I'm talking to > the guy about picking these up so if someone can give me some info on > them I'd appreciate it. The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of the 9122 if that's any help. > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat -tony From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 12 20:02:24 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. Message-ID: <199707130102.AA18772@world.std.com> > How is a PDP-11/23 compared to a 486SX/33? An 11/23 is slower than a 486 if it's running faster than 16mhz. but a 486 is running single user. > About how many percent is the PDP of the 486? what is a PDP? choices 1,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,11/780,11/750,11/730? > About how many percent of the 486 is the VAX? Depending... first I've rarely seen a vax run a single user OS. A 486dx/33 compares to a 3100m38 if they are both running *nix. while the vax is slower in MIPs it is the ultimate CISC and can do more in fewer than a 486. It is also optimized for multitasking/timsharing something the 486 is not. Allison From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jul 12 20:22:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: HHC UPDATE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam: I certainly will volunteer to be the distributor for the Mid-West. I am located in Peru, Nebraska which is 2 miles from Missouri, 30 miles from Kansas, and about 10 miles from Iowa. I also am an hour from both Omaha and Lincoln, Nebraska.... right in the southeast corner of Nebraska!! I'm about as mid-west as it gets! I have a lot of experience in mailing items, large and small, as well as in bulk... so let me know if you still need me. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, just spoke to Mike. Here's the deal: > > Haven't gotten a price yet. He's concerned about shipping since these > units will be coming from Canada. Each unit weighs a little over 5 pounds > with the cpu, printer, tray and power supply. This is a little more than > I expected. He's going to try to have the units shipped in bulk directly > to the volunteer distributors. (So far Kirk (dynasoar) has volunteered to > be an east coast distributor. We need a mid-west, southwest and possibly > southern distributor. Please e-mail me if you wish to volunteer.) Shipped > in bulk, the shipping per unit on the first leg will not be that > significant. Its when you only have 1 or 2 coming to you on the 2nd leg > of shipping that will be significant with relation to the price of each > unit. I would say expect to pay upwards of $15 per each unit after > shipping. Again, if you did not anticipate this and want to or need to > back out, please do so soon. > > Mike said it will take him a week to coordinate everything with the > company that has the units, so no new news until late next week...sorry. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jul 12 16:35:41 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199707130135.VAA07826@mail.cgocable.net> Had to jump in to say few about these hds...from my years long experience with them... Those ST2xx series was the most number produced in old days and I always have them in varying conditions from good, to badly worn. My first test when I get like that especially ST225/ST225R series is remove the logic board and gently rock the motor rotor housing, if it makes clunks or moves, it's junked. Next test is to spun them up and listen and feel the pack for condition of the bearings, the spindle often "grinds or soft ticking" at full speed. The ones that feel smooth and like new feel is real rare! Only advice when to asolutely avoid the seagate is those ST125 series, these always heads gets stuck on platters. If you have a ST251 series, if working, handle them more gently because the spindle with motor in it, that axle is not that strong, warps easily if handled roughly. Very usual like that... :) What else, if you find any different brands that is MFM/RLL, SCSI or such that uses voice coil, they're very reliable and lasts long time. Not those early ST4 series that uses linear voice coils! If you see miniscribe drives, good luck, I have no positive experience about them! What else is worst hd from different brands? Tip: Most Unusual and I mean it: is ST212, uses 1 platter. 4 heads to a platter, two heads per surface. What else? > > On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > On 12-Jul-97, PG Manney wrote: > > > > >Some ST-506/412 -- e.g., the ST-225 -- drives lacked autopark heads, thus > > >inviting problems. > > > > Yes, but in my experience these Seagate drives were real workhorses. I had > > less problems with them, other than when they got bumped too hard while moving > > a system, than with most other types of MFM/RLL drives. > > I opened one to see what was inside, and spun it up. I turned the XT off > when I heard the grinding noise. Sealed it back up, fired up Norton, and > it didnt lose 1 byte of data! This hd that grates was from the arm hitting the adjustable track 0 stop that got bit different position becasue the top was unbolted therefore the bottom part got UNwarped, when cover is bolted back on warps back to correct position. :) YOUR'E LUCKY that you did get it back working again. :-( ) My experience like that is not successful and lose the data to LLF in order to remarry the controller and the tracks back together if cover was removed/put back on. Other thing, the constant slowly warbling grinding or more warbling vibrations when the platter spinning shows that bearings are dead. Yes, I was experimenting with lots of hds/models/brands which I got some experience with them. If you have any questions about hds, floppy drives, fire yours to me. :) Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jul 12 16:44:47 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS In-Reply-To: <9707122057.AA08585@alph02.triumf.ca> References: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:14:37 pm Message-ID: <199707130144.VAA08660@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Tim! Sounds like I might have one too. Is this vaxstation case very similar to a XL size pizza box with bit thicker to take the one HH scsi hd and no floppy? What I have is 3 motherboards, if you wish, ask for more info to ID these bare boards but still have ROMs on it and pretty complete because I forgot what model it was! (slapping myself. :) ) Thanks! Jason D. Big juicy snip! > > You haven't told us which Vaxstation 3100 you have (there are at least > half a dozen different models), but assuming it's a /20 or a /30 or a /38 the > connectors on the back along the bottom are: > > Ethernet AUI > Pushbotton for selecting AUI/Thinnet > Ethernet Thinnet > Pushbutton for reset > Keyboard connector > Mouse connector > Video connector > Two MMJ jacks, labeled for "printer" and "modem" > Small DIP switch for selecting video or serial console (covered up on > some machines) > Status LED's Sounds very similar to what I have here... > > If you're buying 3100's for $200, I've got a pile of about 16 in my > living room... :-) Street price for a 3100/30 with 16 Megs of RAM > is about US$100. Of course, video and/or disk options can substantially > increase the value. > > Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca) > > From rcini at msn.com Sat Jul 12 21:04:33 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Altair Construction Manual Message-ID: To all Altair fans... Well, my more-than-kind individual has provided me with the first of three installments of the original Altair construction manual. He scanned all 102 pages of the doc and made it into a PDF document -- almost 7mb in size. He is also providing me with manuals for "the 88-4K, 88-ACR, and other stuff." I'm not too familiar with all of the available options since the Altair was really before my time, but it looks like the 4k memory board and other stuff. I'm not going to U/L the docs yet, first for size reasons, and second, until we determine if we should try to contact Triumph-Adler... On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Jim Willing wrote: >>So, it can be assumed that TA [Triumph-Adler of Germany] now >>owns all of the rights to things MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them >>on occasion on related matters and have gotten no response of any >>kind to date. Anybody have any thoughts? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From marvin at rain.org Sat Jul 12 22:23:30 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Saturday Haul References: Message-ID: <33C84A32.687A@rain.org> Today was one of those good days/bad days. I ended up with quite a few machines I didn't have but ended up losing out on some stuff. The bad news? I bought an 11/23 w/ HD and it somehow got separated from the stuff I bought and I do not have it now. Second, that Spectragraphics CAD workstation I have been telling people about had 6 Sony color Trinitron monitors, all working, and they sold for $5 each. I am told (after the fact) that they are worth about $500 each on the used equipment market. Good news, I ended up with: Tandy 6000 HD w/docs and software ATT PC7300 w/ some docs and software Three Apple IIe computers w/ 4 floppy drives total Apple IIc computer w/monitor, printer, software, manuals Wang Computer model PC-XC3-2 (docs coming when they get found) Two Commodore 128C computers Non-Linear-Systems Kaypro II Two IBM PC Keyboards Six C64 game cartridges Modem for C64 Radio Shack Printer 386 DX40 w/ 200 MB HD, 6 MB Ram Total outlay was about $30. Ham radio events can be a goldmine for old computer stuff! From thedm at sunflower.com Sat Jul 12 22:45:27 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Saturday Haul Message-ID: <199707130343.WAA07805@challenge.sunflower.com> I need a 128 for my collection, care to part with one? ---------- > From: Marvin > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Saturday Haul > Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 10:23 PM > > Today was one of those good days/bad days. I ended up with quite a few > machines I didn't have but ended up losing out on some stuff. The bad > news? I bought an 11/23 w/ HD and it somehow got separated from the > stuff I bought and I do not have it now. Second, that Spectragraphics > CAD workstation I have been telling people about had 6 Sony color > Trinitron monitors, all working, and they sold for $5 each. I am told > (after the fact) that they are worth about $500 each on the used > equipment market. > > Good news, I ended up with: > > Tandy 6000 HD w/docs and software > ATT PC7300 w/ some docs and software > Three Apple IIe computers w/ 4 floppy drives total > Apple IIc computer w/monitor, printer, software, manuals > Wang Computer model PC-XC3-2 (docs coming when they get found) > Two Commodore 128C computers > Non-Linear-Systems Kaypro II > Two IBM PC Keyboards > Six C64 game cartridges > Modem for C64 > Radio Shack Printer > 386 DX40 w/ 200 MB HD, 6 MB Ram > > Total outlay was about $30. Ham radio events can be a goldmine for old > computer stuff! From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 12 22:52:02 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:36:56 -0700 (PDT) References: Message-ID: <199707130352.UAA29641@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sam Ismail writes: > Nope. I've got a Pivot. This was nothing like the Pivot. It was close > to the shape of an Osbourne and it was beige. It was close to the > dimensions of a tower case only it sits horizontally. You are right, that is not a Pivot. Unfortunately I am not sure what it is. > I got mine for free. Like I said, "bogus price". I didn't buy it. I didn't even inquire at the counter. IBM-compatibles (and I think these were fairly so) aren't real interesting to me even if George Morrow did let his name get put on 'em. (Though I do have one of the Osborne 3 flavor...a moment of weakness I guess.) BTW, speaking of Morrow stuff, I met a guy at the Foothill swap meet today who was selling a Micro Decision (claimed to be an MD-11 but two floppies, no hard disk) for $30. I'm not interested -- got two of 'em that I haven't touched for a while -- but thought someone here might be. Has software and manuals but I did not see the big stack of paper-bound manuals that I might expect; the seller said he got it from an ex-Morrow employee and it may have been assembled from excess parts but is functional. Other stuff found at the Foothill swap: Sinclair ZX-80. Well, it's in pieces, but board, case top, case bottom, wall wart...yep, looks like they're all there. $5. First one I've seen in years so I snagged it. A couple of S-100 bits. Some HP employees were perturbed by the prices of quality S-100 gear and so set about designing their own, and it looks like they got to use HP's printed-circuit production facilities. Apparently I missed the chassis but got the junk box for another $5. Included are a pristine blank CPU board of their design, as well as a couple of S-100 bus terminators. S-100 bus terminators with the HP logo, whodathunkit? Part number on the board is 7373-60003, and the board comes with helpful instructions in the traces (no solder mask or silkscreen): TERMINATOR THE LAST BOARD I think there is a story here, and I want to know more of it than I got today. Convergent Tech Workslate, plus printer and serial/parallel box, condition uncertain. $26. Pricey but if I get it cleaned up and working it could make a nice desk toy at the office. What sort of power input do these things want? Xerox 820 board, socketed but ICs not plugged in. Another project that the owner lost interest in. $2. -Frank McConnell From pcoad at crl.com Sat Jul 12 22:57:45 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, James Carter wrote: > We had one of those vibrating football games, what a joke :) > I also vaguely remember in the early 70s a neighbor having some football > game where you made your plays and inserted some plastic disc into a unit > that would tell you how the play went like a sports announcer. > I still have one of those vibrating football games. I always liked it, even if it was not much like modern football (no passing). ObClassicComputers: This is the first message sent to the list by be from an almost classic Sun 3/60. While the 3/60 was introduced in 87, this one was born on 21 June 1988. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 12 23:26:41 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:38:26 GMT References: <2626@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199707130426.VAA01468@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, > or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of > the 9122 if that's any help. There are two flavors of HP 86, the 86A and the 86B. The 86A does not have the built-in GPIB (aka IEEE-488 aka HP-IB). Instead it has three connectors on the back. All three look the same, like Centronics printer connectors but maybe with screw-downs instead of ears. One is for a cable to a Centronics-ish printer. The other two are for cables to external 5.25" floppy drives. The 86B does away with all this and instead has an HP-IB connector. Re: the 9121: yep, single-sided Sony stiffy drives that hold about 300KB I think. It's been too long and I have forgotten just about everything except that the single-sided ones never seemed to hold quite enough (this on HP 150s). HP was an early adopter of the Sony 3.5" stiffies, back when it was not clear that the 3.5" format was going to be the winner from the several sub-5.25" media. You know how 3.5" drives open the metal slider so they can get at the medium? The very earliest drives didn't, and the stiffies didn't spring-load the slider -- it was up to the user to slide the slider before insertion into and after removal from the drive. For a while there were goes-either-way stiffies: slider spring-loaded so that they would close on eject from an auto-open drive, but also with a catch so you could slide the slider over to the left before insertion into a non-auto-open drive, then pinch the corner after removal to release the catch and let the spring pull the slider closed. That is why those stiffies have the legend "PINCH" near that corner. I don't know how pervasive these early drives were. The place where I worked at the time had a few 1983-dated pieces of equipment (a 9121, some 9133XVs) that were the auto-open variety. -Frank McConnell From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 00:08:30 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707130508.AA24592@interlock.ans.net> > I have no idea what to do with it, this is the first time I've ever seen > VMS. I have a 50-user liscense. For those that may not have heard, VMS is available FREE from DECUS for home and hobby use only. Digital is on our side! William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 00:27:20 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <9707122219.AA08830@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199707130527.AA25110@interlock.ans.net> > As long as we're talking about classic hard drives, I can't help but put > in a plug for the Fujitsu Eagle. I know of several commercial sites > which still prefer 15-year old Eagles to modern 3.5" drives for reliability > reasons. I myself have a dozen or so Eagles that hum along just fine. Fujitsu Eagles GOOD? I remember that Fujitsu made a bunch of real dogs in the line, with new drives crashing all over the place. Tucked inside my Sun-4/280 was a thinly veiled letter of apology from Sun, basically stating that they were sorry that they had to ship units with Eagles, and the problems would be sorted out as soon as possible. Incidently, comparing modern micros to yesterday's minis I feel is a bit silly. The minis, being big expensive things, perhaps doing mission critical tasks, were produced to very high standards. One bad unit could really cause a stink and a customer, perhaps worth millions, could be lost. Fujitsu still is "known" for Eagles. Micros (even the classic ones), on the other hand, are built with every cost cutting trick known (including in the QA department), and individual failures, if kept in low numbers, are relatively harmless to the business. No folks, the overall quality of computers has not changed. There were gems and junk in the past, just as there are gems and junk now. William Donzelli william@ans.net From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sun Jul 13 01:36:23 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707130527.AA25110@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jul 13, 97 01:27:20 am Message-ID: <9707130536.AA09268@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1058 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970712/6970955d/attachment-0001.ksh From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 00:39:58 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? In-Reply-To: <199707121952.PAA14910@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199707130539.AA25446@interlock.ans.net> > I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals > and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never > heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? Good hardware, horrible software (typical IBM). I am still fighting with the 5363 III at RCS/RI. The S/36 is a minicomputer, not compatible with the 360/370 line. > Third, for anyone that is interested (you pay shipping, plus maybe a few > extra bucks - whatever you think it's worth) the following are also > available: > > 10M HD for an IBM 360 Do you have a part number (a four digit thing)? Also, where is it located (my interest, or rather feasibility, drops after several hundred miles - in any case, I am interested). If it is for a 360, it will be large. Tell us more. William Donzelli william@ans.net From jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au Sun Jul 13 01:19:15 1997 From: jolminkh at c2.telstra-mm.net.au (Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Fwd: TRS80 Hardware and Software Message-ID: <199707130616.XAA00725@mx3.u.washington.edu> This advert appeared in an Australian newsgroup, obviously in error. It turns out the guy is in Milwaukee, WI. Perhaps some of you USA people are interested. Hans Olminkhof FOR SALE: Trs80/Tandy/Radio Shack Hardware & Software Make replies to: Rrotaru@execpc.com As of July 10, 1997 the following items are for sale and are open to any reasonalbe offer (either as a package or individual items). All items MUST go! So, don't wait too long to respond. All items are in working condition unless otherwise noted. You pay for shipping. HARDWARE: (2) Trs80 Model 4's (both need power supplies; 64K Non-Gate Array's) (2) Radio Shack Line Printer VIII's (with extra ribbons)...both work fine. (1) Tandy DT-1 Data Terminal (w/manual, tech manual, spare keyboard & parts) (2) Trs80 Model 1's (each w/ expansion interface, manuals & monitor) (1) Joystick for Model 1 (Big Five "Trisstick") (1) TC-8 cassette interface for Model 1 (with tapes!) (1) Radio Shack Line Printer II interface for Model 1 (1) Microtek MT-32 Printer/Memory module for Model 1 (1) Micro Mint 300 Baud Modem (for Model 1; w/ Comm80 cassette software) (1) Orchestra 90 Stereo Music Synthesizer (for Model 3/4 w/floppies & docs) (5) Single sided/Double density (180K) 5.25" floppy drives (orig. Tandy) (2) Tandy Color Computer 2's (Coco 2) (1) Direct connect modem (300 baud for Coco) (1) Tandy CM-2 Color Monitor (for Coco 3, but will do CGA on IBM-PC's!) SOFTWARE: TRS80 MODEL 1: Advanced Statistical Analysis (cassette) Level 1 Game Pack (cassette) Personal Finance (cassette) Cassette Comm (obvious) Temple of Apshai (cassette game) TRS80 MODEL 3: In Memory Information (cassette) Assembly Language Tutor (cassette - Model 1 & 3, two copies one is sealed) Trs80/Z80 Assembly Language Library (Model 1 & 3; floppies) Computer Graphics (Basic/utils/subroutines; floppy) Compiler Basic (Model 1 & 3; floppy) Series 1 Editor/Assembler Ver. 1.00 (floppy) Trsdos 6.02.00 (orig. disk & manual) Mail/File System Ver. 3.3 (Galactic Software; floppy) Find It Quick-Instant Software (Model 1 & 3; floppy) Mirco Courier Ver. 1.00.00 (floppy) Profile Ver. 3.4 (floppy) Micro Pilot Authoring System Ver. 1.00.00 (floppy) Computer Assisted Reading Development C.A.R.D. (floppy) Basic Course (cassette) Scripsit (text editor; cassette) Lots of cassette software...Mostly Model 3 stuff...some are orig. tapes TRS80 MODEL 4: Profile 4 Plus Ver. 1.00.03 (floppy) Disk Scripsit Ver. 1.00 (text editor; floppy) Target Planner Calc (spreadsheet; floppy) The Producer Ver. 4.0 (create basic programs using plain english; floppy) Deskmate ReportStar (word processing/report creator; CP/M software - Montizuma Micro) COLOR COMPUTER 2/3 (CoCo2 or 3): Mickey's Space Adventure (kid's game, sealed; floppy) Ghana Bwana (kid's game, 2 copies- 1 is sealed; floppy) Color Math (kid's math tutor, 2 copies- 1 is sealed; cassette) Rocky's Boots (kid's game; floppy) Flightsim I (for Coco 3; floppy) Dungeons of Daggorath (kid's game, cartridge) Personal Finance II (cartridge) Color Scripsit (text editor; cartridge) Spectaculator (spreadsheet program; cartridge) BasicOS9 (floppy) OS9 Profile (floppy) Castle of Tharoggao (game; cartridge) Rogue (Coco3; floppy) Kronis Rift (Lucasfilm game, Coco3; floppy) Chromacassette's (several with games and utils; cassettes) MANUALS AND DOCS: Oricle 80 (photo copies) Tandy Home Education Systems - Vidtex Basic Computer Games/More Basic Computer Games Series I Editor/Assembler Tandy Intelligent Modem DC-2212 (manual only- no modem) Profile III Plus (no disk) Super Scripsit (no disk) Trsdos Ver. 6.1.2 (manual only, no disk...copies available upon request) Dow Jones Information Service User Guide Business Mailing List Quick Quiz Lynn's Check Register System (photocopy) Disk Course (photocopy) Teacher Aid (photocopy) T-Bug - Z80 Monitor & Debugging Aid (photocopy) Micro Music (photocopy) Tape Payroll System (photocopy) Cross Reference Utility (photocopy) Host Term (photocopy) Show & Spell (photocopy) Statistical Analysis (photocopy) In Memory Information system (photocopy) BOOKS: Introduction to Trs80 Gaphics - Don Inman Trs80 Graphics - Don Inman Advanced Level II Basic - Don Inman/Bob Albrecht/Ramon Zamora) Using the Trs80 In Your Home - Charles D. Sternberg Trs80 Graphics for the Model 1 & Model 3 - David A. Kater/Susan J. Thomas Visicalc For Your Trs80 - Carol Klitzner/Matthew J. Plociak Jr Visicalc Applications - Robt. E. Williams/Bruce J. Taylor/Brian L. King Business Programming Applications - Wm. Barden (for Model 1/3/2/16) Introdcution to SuperScripsit Word Processing Tandy Source Book (software applications - Vol. 8) Business Programs for the Trs80 Model 1/3 - Charles D. Sternberg The Rest of 80 - 80Micro Magazine Publications 80Micro's Review Guide Trs80 Data File Programming Model 1/3 - Finkel/Brown Encyclopedia for the Trs80 Vol. 1-10 Understanding Digital Computers - Radio Shack Getting Started With Trs80 Basic (Model 1/3/4) - Radio Shack MAGAZINES: Trs80 Microcomputer News (1979-1986, some years complete, some not) 80 Micro (1981-1988; some years complete, some not) MISC IBM & COMPATIBLE STUFF: Model PC-130a 150 Watt switching power supply (new in box...never used) Atari SX212 External 1200 baud modem (For Atari and IBM; Hayes compatible!) Viva 2400 baud Internal Fax/Modem (fax is 9600 send/4800 receive) Telix VGA TTL mono monitor (must have TTL video card) Epson FX-80 printer (still prints ok, carriage needs cleaning) ====================================================================== ====== REPLY TO: Rrotaru@execpc.com ====================================================================== ====== From spc at armigeron.com Sun Jul 13 02:59:18 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? In-Reply-To: <199707130539.AA25446@interlock.ans.net> from "William Donzelli" at Jul 13, 97 01:39:58 am Message-ID: <199707130759.DAA16252@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: > > > I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals > > and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never > > heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? > > Good hardware, horrible software (typical IBM). I am still fighting with > the 5363 III at RCS/RI. > While the software IBM sells is often not worth the media it's distributed on, the software used internally is often very good (at least it was for the PC stuff). I still use an Internal Use Only editor written for PC-DOS 1.x in 1982, version 1.0 (no bugs, very small, programmable, can edit multiple files, etc etc). > The S/36 is a minicomputer, not compatible with the 360/370 line. It isn't? I was talking to a friend that said it could run 360/370 software. I guess I'll find out when I get it. > > Third, for anyone that is interested (you pay shipping, plus maybe a few > > extra bucks - whatever you think it's worth) the following are also > > available: > > > > 10M HD for an IBM 360 > > Do you have a part number (a four digit thing)? I'll have the info on Tuesday (Monday maybe). > Also, where is it located (my interest, or rather feasibility, drops > after several hundred miles - in any case, I am interested). If it is for a > 360, it will be large. Somewhere near Boca Raton, home of the IBM PC (and for those still unwise int he ways of U.S. geography, just north of Ft. Lauderdale, which is just north of Miami, Fl). > Tell us more. I will, when I get more information. -spc (Oh good, at least someone heard of it 8-) From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Sun Jul 13 11:25:23 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Dead Thomson To7 -70 Message-ID: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> Hi, Yesterday I recived Thomson To7-70 computer, which is totally dead. When it's working, on display there are only horizontal color lines, each of them has witdh of one character. Is ther anybody who can say me whots's bad. I suppose this can be demaged processor (it's incredibly hot after 2-3 minuters of working), but I am not sure. Thanks, Krzysztof Strzecha From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Sun Jul 13 11:33:03 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5110 Message-ID: <33C9033F.2089@kis.p.lodz.pl> Hi, I'm looking for information about IBM 5110 computer. Is there anybody who can help me ? Thanks Krzysztof Strzecha From william at ans.net Sun Jul 13 12:05:24 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? In-Reply-To: <199707130759.DAA16252@armigeron.com> Message-ID: <199707131705.AA11931@interlock.ans.net> > It isn't? I was talking to a friend that said it could run 360/370 > software. I guess I'll find out when I get it. It may be able to do emulation, but I think the whole System/3x line is distinct from the mainframe line. I am sure there are similarities between the two lines, however. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 13 12:12:26 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: We now own a VAX! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > Oh, and does anyone know what all the plugs on the back do? Dude, with this question you went over the 5 consecutive message per user limit. Get your thoughts together!! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 13 12:23:01 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707130352.UAA29641@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 12 Jul 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > BTW, speaking of Morrow stuff, I met a guy at the Foothill swap meet > today who was selling a Micro Decision (claimed to be an MD-11 but two > floppies, no hard disk) for $30. I'm not interested -- got two of 'em Yeah, that's too high. I've got one with floppy/harddrive config and I saw one the other day at a thrift store with the dual floppy config. I'm going to get that one to use for parts since the one I have seems to have a flaky power supply or something. When it's booting up the screen keeps rolling and the system seems to keep resetting itself. It finally boots after a while but the process is long and painful. > Convergent Tech Workslate, plus printer and serial/parallel box, > condition uncertain. $26. Pricey but if I get it cleaned up and > working it could make a nice desk toy at the office. What sort of > power input do these things want? I think you got the one that I kept passing up and was planning to get the next time I got around to either Foothill or Las Positas. Damn! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 13:03:53 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Dead Thomson To7 -70 In-Reply-To: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> References: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> Message-ID: <33ce1815.1227907@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:25:23 +0200, you wrote: %Hi, % % Yesterday I recived Thomson To7-70 computer, which is totally dead. %When it's working, on display there are only horizontal color lines, %each of them has witdh of one character. Is ther anybody who can say me %whots's bad. I suppose this can be demaged processor (it's incredibly %hot after 2-3 minuters of working), but I am not sure. Is that machine customised for your country's TV system? The TO7 is a French computer and uses French SECAM output. If your country uses PAL, you may need to use the Peritel output (if there's one) instead of the modulator. I think some countries use a different SECAM than the French one. Ben From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Sun Jul 13 13:49:32 1997 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Dead Thomson To7 -70 References: <33C90173.3028@kis.p.lodz.pl> <33ce1815.1227907@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33C9233C.5F23@kis.p.lodz.pl> Benedict Chong wrote: > > On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:25:23 +0200, you wrote: > > %Hi, > % > % Yesterday I recived Thomson To7-70 computer, which is totally > dead. > %When it's working, on display there are only horizontal color lines, > %each of them has witdh of one character. Is ther anybody who can say > me > %whots's bad. I suppose this can be demaged processor (it's incredibly > %hot after 2-3 minuters of working), but I am not sure. > > Is that machine customised for your country's TV system? The TO7 is a > French computer and uses French SECAM output. If your country uses > PAL, you may need to use the Peritel output (if there's one) instead > of the modulator. I think some countries use a different SECAM than > the French one. > > Ben I suppose this is not that kind of problem. In this computer is anly SCART connector, which I used. Krzysiek From dlw at neosoft.com Sun Jul 13 10:18:06 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: <2626@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <199707132016.PAA10931@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 13 Jul 97 at 0:38, Tony Duell wrote: > I can't tell you much about it, although if it's the machine I am thinking > of, the monitor is actually a separate box that locks in place. It's a > 68000-based machine, and has GPIB as standard. SOme of them have a ROM board > containing (I think) HP-basic, while others boot from floppy. That sounds like it. The monitor was locked on forming one piece but looked like it might be removable. Sounds interesting anyway. I'll probably pick it up with the other stuff but as with most systems I find, I'll have to search for doc and software now. Guess I'll poke around the web and newsgroups. > The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, > or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of > the 9122 if that's any help. Ok, you've lost me on that one. What is the GPIB? Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 17:11:29 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I gather this rates as a classic at least :^) Been working on my Weekend haul, and having only ever had a Vic 20 (which sadly I gave away years ago), I'm somewhat out of my depth. My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga 500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on the display. I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is why I switched to computers). Then there is the Amiga 500. About a month ago, I'd picked up a copy of "Bards Tale" for the Amiga, so I know it works. Problem is I don't have a copy of the two floppies that came with the computer originally (also got the manual for this at Powells). I think I've got the Kickstart 1.2 ROMs (it has a 1.2 on the screen when asking for the Workbench disk). Where can I get the disks? I don't suppose it's like the Apple IIgs software that you can now download. The second Amiga question would be, is it possible to hook up Apple IIgs, or Macintosh 3 1/2" external floppy drive with a Amiga? I somehow doubt it, but... Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 17:10:27 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone happen to have information about constructing a video cable for one of these beasts? I managed to get the computer, power supply, and what looks like a cable for a casette deck, but no video cable :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ampage at geocities.com Sun Jul 13 17:28:35 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Video References: Message-ID: <33C95693.5B044CA7@geocities.com> It takes a standard 5-pin DIN cable. The pinouts are on Rich Polivka's TI page at http://w3.gwis.com/~polivka/994apg.html From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jul 13 16:32:28 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:17 2005 Subject: Extra stuff to go Message-ID: <199707132132.RAA12615@unix.aardvarkol.com> Ben, I recieved your money order in the mail, but due to my work schedule, it's likely I won't be able to try and ship the Model 4 until at least Tuesday. I'll let you knwo as soon as I ship. Thanks. Jeff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 18:38:35 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: PDP performance question. Message-ID: <2684@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > what is a PDP? choices 1,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,11/780,11/750,11/730? Got something against the PDP12 and PDP15, then ? :-) [Sorry, couldn't resist it!] > Allison -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 18:40:45 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <2685@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > There are two flavors of HP 86, the 86A and the 86B. Thanks for the info - I've only used 86B's. > Re: the 9121: yep, single-sided Sony stiffy drives that hold about > 300KB I think. It's been too long and I have forgotten just about > everything except that the single-sided ones never seemed to hold > quite enough (this on HP 150s). Probalby 320 or 360K bytes (at least on the 150 - is the 9121 supported on the 150 - my manuals are silent on the subject...). It's 80 track single-sided, and thus the same size as a double-sided 40 track disk. > You know how 3.5" drives open the metal slider so they can get at the > medium? The very earliest drives didn't, and the stiffies didn't > spring-load the slider -- it was up to the user to slide the slider > before insertion into and after removal from the drive. I've also seen disks that open automatically, but stay open when ejected. You 'pinch' them to close them. They did not close automatically on ejection from any drive. > -Frank McConnell -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 13 18:45:12 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <2686@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > > The HP86 is basically an HP85 without the built-in monitor,tape drive, > > or printer, but with GPIB as standard. The 9121 is a single-sided version of > > the 9122 if that's any help. > > Ok, you've lost me on that one. What is the GPIB? GPIB = General-Purpose Interface Bus. Aka IEEE-488, and very similar to HPIB (= Hewlett-Packard Interface bus). HP were the company who designed it, but it turns up on all sorts of machines. It's an 8-bit parallel interface using a 24 pin connector. 8 pins are ground, 8 are data, 3 are handshake, and 5 are bus control/management. It was originally designed to link up lab equipment (DVMs, counters, digital 'scopes, etc), but HP use it as a general peripheral bus (disk drives, plotters, printers, etc) on some of their micros. Commodore used it for much the same purpose (although with looser timing requirements) on the PETs > David Williams - Computer Packrat -tony From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 13 18:46:24 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Zane H. Healy wrote: > My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked > up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the > drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's > what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga > 500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the > drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on > the display. Sounds like the ever so common Dead Commie Syndrome. > I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even > if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do > I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? Nope. It's probably just dead. > The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power > supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It Nope. It's another ailment called Dead Commie Power Supply Syndrome. Quite common. > looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & > New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your > Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some > documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, > so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is > why I switched to computers). Do this: go out and search for 10. This will give you a large enough sample group. If you're lucky, 5 of the 10 will work. Throw the 5 that don't work out. Keep the other 4 working ones around so that when the first fails (it will, give it 2 days) you have 4 other spares. Expect to find 20% of your 4 spares spontaneously dead. All these statistics have been formulated in a recent study (conducted 40 seconds ago) based on real-life data. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From transit at primenet.com Sun Jul 13 19:17:51 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Video Brain In-Reply-To: <199707022057.QAA08031@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf wrote: > > >Sam Ismail wrote: > > One of the > >> systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a > >> video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this > >> system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody > >> knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and > >> for me to comprehend it. > >Video brain was made by a firm called UMTECH, used a microprocessor > >called F8 and had 1 to 4K of RAM memory. It was possible to store the > >data on cassette and, you are right there, it had many plug-in > >cartridges with games on them. It was sold mainly through departments > >stores and specialty electronic stores (at least that is what "A > >Collector's guide to personal computers" book has to say about it) > > I remeber reading a little blurb about Video Brain in the April 1981 Creative Computing. Essentially, by that time the company had gone out of business. . . From transit at primenet.com Sun Jul 13 19:19:32 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor In-Reply-To: <802B50C269DECF11B6A200A0242979EF28C752@consulting.ensemble.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > Does anyone remember this machine : > > > > it's a video game console (like the atari VCS) but which could sit on > > a box which then converts it to a home computer. > > > > The machine ran on a 6800 and had built-in basic. > > > > It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series > > (78-79?) > > > > I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was > > "imagination machine". > > > > > > Ben > > > > Ahh, the "APF Imagination Machine" I believe. Somewhere I have a > > single cartridge for it. > > > > -Mp > I heard about it from Popular Electronics magazine in early 1981 or so. The video chip was the same as that used in the TRS80 Color Computer, if I remember correctly . . . From george.lin at documentum.com Sun Jul 13 19:20:26 1997 From: george.lin at documentum.com (George Lin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <01BC8FB1.0FE9DFA0.george.lin@documentum.com> Zane, Are you trying to connect the 1702 monitor to the C128 RF port? It won't work. The 1702 monitor should be connected to the C128 VIDEO port via a special cable. The VIDEO port outputs composite video signal. The RF port outputs VHS Channel 3 or 4 and is used for TV connection. George -- George Lin Documentum, Inc. (Nasdaq: DCTM) Manager, Data/Voice Communi- Phone/Fax: 510-463-6800/6850 cation & End-User Computing http://www.documentum.com Email Fax mailto:remote-printer.George_Lin@4.3.8.6.3.6.4.0.1.5.1.tpc.int My PGP Public Key for encryption is at http://george.home.ml.org/pgp.htm -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy [SMTP:healyzh@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Sunday, July 13, 1997 3:11 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Some Commie questions Hi, I gather this rates as a classic at least :^) Been working on my Weekend haul, and having only ever had a Vic 20 (which sadly I gave away years ago), I'm somewhat out of my depth. My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga 500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on the display. I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is why I switched to computers). Then there is the Amiga 500. About a month ago, I'd picked up a copy of "Bards Tale" for the Amiga, so I know it works. Problem is I don't have a copy of the two floppies that came with the computer originally (also got the manual for this at Powells). I think I've got the Kickstart 1.2 ROMs (it has a 1.2 on the screen when asking for the Workbench disk). Where can I get the disks? I don't suppose it's like the Apple IIgs software that you can now download. The second Amiga question would be, is it possible to hook up Apple IIgs, or Macintosh 3 1/2" external floppy drive with a Amiga? I somehow doubt it, but... Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From sinasohn at crl.com Sun Jul 13 23:23:42 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970713212513.4fafd4da@ricochet.net> At 07:48 PM 7/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >I think that was RS. I had one of those too. Got pretty boring pretty >quick, cause you could fake down, go up three times and spaz on the >forward button for a guaranteed first down every time. (or was it a >guaranteed TD? I can't remember.) guaranteed TD. Yep, that's it. 8^) It may have been boring, but it was better than studying! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 13 23:15:47 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions In-Reply-To: <01BC8FB1.0FE9DFA0.george.lin@documentum.com> Message-ID: George, >Are you trying to connect the 1702 monitor to the C128 RF port? It won't >work. The 1702 monitor should be connected to the C128 VIDEO port via a >special cable. The VIDEO port outputs composite video signal. The RF >port outputs VHS Channel 3 or 4 and is used for TV connection. Many thanks, thats exactly what I was trying to do. I had thought that since it worked on the Amiga 500, that it would work for the C128. I've now got it hooked up to a 4" TV that I've got, which in my overloaded computer collection is actually better :^) Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 14 00:36:03 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: ComRiter References: <1.5.4.16.19970713212513.4fafd4da@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <33C9BAC3.4A4E@rain.org> I have a printer that is labeled as a ComRiter Printer, and as I was checking though some other stuff, I found I have a brand new Comrex keyboard for a ComRiter. Now the only question is, what is this thing called a ComRiter :)? From dlw at neosoft.com Sun Jul 13 19:46:25 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Video Brain In-Reply-To: References: <199707022057.QAA08031@granite.sentex.net> Message-ID: <199707140544.AAA03170@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 13 Jul 97 at 17:17, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > I remeber reading a little blurb about Video Brain in the April 1981 > Creative Computing. Essentially, by that time the company had gone out > of business. . . I missed the little blurb in my April 1981 issue but do see a couple of articles on the Video Brain in the Feb '79 and Mar '79 issues of Creative Computing. Says they used the F8 processor. I've heard of it but don't know much about it. Anyone know how it compared to say the 8080 which the article says was the other processor they considered using. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From pcoad at crl.com Mon Jul 14 02:28:51 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: F8 chip was Video Brain In-Reply-To: <199707140544.AAA03170@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, David Williams wrote: > On 13 Jul 97 at 17:17, Charles P. Hobbs wrote: > > > I remeber reading a little blurb about Video Brain in the April 1981 > > Creative Computing. Essentially, by that time the company had gone out > > of business. . . > > I missed the little blurb in my April 1981 issue but do see a couple > of articles on the Video Brain in the Feb '79 and Mar '79 issues of > Creative Computing. Says they used the F8 processor. I've heard of > it but don't know much about it. Anyone know how it compared to say > the 8080 which the article says was the other processor they > considered using. > The F8 was made by Fairchild. IIRC is was the brain of the Channel F video game system. The blurb below is from the "Microprocessor Cookbook" by Michael F. Hordeski (this is a TAB book and I am typing, so be careful). The F8 is a multichip NMOS microprocessor system that is designed around a bus architecture. The heart of the system is the CPU chip. When this combind with the program storage unit (PSU) which contains a masked ROM, timing and interrupt control, a minimal system configuration is obtained. The memory interface unit contains the memory address registers and address buss not contained in the CPU. The DMA chimp contains the hold and wait circuitry required for direct memory access. ... The CPU chip contains sixty four bytes of scratch-pad memory which can eliminate the need for random-access memory in simple applications. ... The data bus provides the external interface through two sets of eight- bit input/output ports. Transfer gates are used to move data from the data bus and external busses for processing. The CPU chip also includes a clock and power-on-reset circuits, but it does not contain a program counter or memory address registers. These are included in one of the companion chips. Without the address registers there is no need for an address bus, and this reduces the CPU chip count. ... The F8 was a 2 chip design (there was a later 1 chip version). The main competitor was the Intel 8048. Below is a comparison chart from "Microprocessors from chips to systems" by Rodnay Zaks: 8080 F8 Technology PMOS NMOS # of Instructions 69 70 Cycle Time (uS) 1, 3, 1.5, 2 2 to 13 Direct addressing (bits) 16 16 Registers 7 1 + RAM Stack(levels) soft external sp interrupts 1 1 on-chip clock - - ROM(bytes) - - RAM(words) - 64 timer - - PFR - - I/O lines - 16 package (pins) 40 40 Power supply (V) +5, -5, +12 +5, +12 HTH, --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 14 08:49:03 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") Message-ID: <9706148688.AA868895555@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Uncle Roger wrote: > (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) What!?!?! Do you mean the East German Robotron Elektronik, or is this another company with the same name? If the former, do you know what the Robotron 7022 is/was? I think it is a micro of early '80s vintage. I have a Robotron 7622 - a large (5U rack mount) box that appears to be the console for it (lamps and switches and four 7-segment hex digits). I am trying to reverse engineer but am having problems with Russian chip numbers. Sometime soon I shall make a longer posting on this subject... Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 14 09:15:49 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: What exactly, is an IBM System 36? Message-ID: <9706148688.AA868897174@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > I have the oportunity to aquire an IBM System 36 model 5364 with manuals > and operating disks, all in working condition. My question is, I have never > heard of this system (the 360/370, yes). What can I expect? The S/36 is a minicomputer from the early 1980s (?). It replaced the system/34, although I still had to work on one of the latter as a student in 1985-6. I don't think I have much documentation on the S/36, but I have some on the S/34, including an OCL (operation control language - rather like JCL) reference which might help you. The 5364 was a late S/36, the Desktop model. It comes in a box that looks remarkably like a PC/AT (the only external difference being the disk drive bays I think). Unfortunately its floppy drive is 5 1/4 inch, where all other S/36s at that date had 8 inch. Trivia information: The largest S/36, together with the S/34 and a word processing system of which I can no longer remember the number, all had the nicest floppy drive I have ever seen. It took twenty-three disks - three singly and two cassettes of ten each - on a moving carriage (tautology??). It moved the carriage until the appropriate disk was opposite the hole, then sucked it in and read/wrote it. Fast. :-) Philip. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 14 12:04:22 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706148689.AA868907254@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > My Datamaster Troubles... > Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least > could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no > manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen > during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number: "09" and I'm > assuming that this is a hardware failure code. > I have the "Diagnostic" diskette, but since I think that the floppies are > not working (or the diskette is now bad), it's useless. I must admit, I haven't booted mine recently. It is just about visible under the pile of junk in that part of my computer room... I can, however, easily get at the manuals. The service manual is not much use, I'm afraid, but I can look up the diagnostic codes for you. I shall try and do this this evening, and post it tomorrow, but I can't promise anything. Philip. From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 07:45:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: F8 chip was Video Brain Message-ID: <199707141245.AA27270@world.std.com> :> Technology PMOS NMOS This is wrong. both are N-channel silicone gate NMOS. :> # of Instructions 69 70 What this doesn't tell is that the F8 had a very weak instruction set. doing something like xoring a byte was tedious to say the least. The 8080 instruction set was far more general. The F8 was aimed at the market that the 8048 and 8051 would later dominate, IE: single chip MPUs of general application. Also april '78 KILOBAUD had an article speculating on how to use a VB system as a cheap graphic peripheral. Allison From ampage at geocities.com Mon Jul 14 07:55:04 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") References: <9706148688.AA868895555@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Message-ID: <33CA21A8.FDE55B13@geocities.com> Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk wrote: > > Uncle Roger wrote: > > > (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) > > What!?!?! > > Do you mean the East German Robotron Elektronik, or is this another > company with the same name? I have a feeling he's referring to Robotron: 2084, a classic arcade game by Williams... From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 09:09:39 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: <199707120243.VAA18585@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <4C5C0FB4219@ifrsys.com> > Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:45:51 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "thedm" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: Classic Video Games > X-To: > Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. My friends and I were the reason > they stopped letting us take to school! damn...that was ages ago. > I remember it like it was yesterday. My girlfriend at the time had one (it was about 1978, I think) had one. She could almost always win that damned thing (in difficult mode). I never got any good at it. Jeff From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 10:07:02 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Message-ID: <4FA5E866D98@ifrsys.com> Here's a real classic for ya. I'd have killed for a system like this one, but married life, no room, no time, blah blah blah . . . Maybe someone out there wants this. Jeff ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Path: Supernews70!supernews.com!news.he.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwel l.syr.edu!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hookup!winternet.com!not-for-mail From: Jim Tousignant Newsgroups: comp.sys.m6809 Subject: 6800 Exorciser System Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:39:30 -0500 Organization: Acme Lines: 7 Message-ID: <33C51042.42DB9891@pcpros.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin45.pcpros.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i586) Xref: Supernews70 comp.sys.m6809:186 Anyone have a use for a Motorola 6800 Exorcisor System? This is a real antique - we're talkin dual 8" drives here, 6809 assembler, all kinds of add on cards. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 09:44:55 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707121259.FAA09709@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: Sam Ismail's message of Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E62F444A07@ifrsys.com> > Date: 12 Jul 1997 05:59:37 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Frank McConnell > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: PAM computer, Convergent? > Sam Ismail writes: > > Lastly, I saw this pretty awesome looking Morrow computer which seemed to > > be of a portable ilk. At first when I saw it from afar it looked like > > one of those phony props you see in furniture stores. When I got up > > close I realized it was an actual computer with this funky wide screen > > built in (it was about 4" high by 8" wide) and two floppy disks. > > A Morrow Pivot. Portable, battery-operated MS-DOS machine; I'm not > sure how IBM-compatible it is. Made by Vadem in Milpitas, OEMd by > Morrow as the Pivot, Zenith as something (think they sold a bunch to > the IRS), Osborne as the Osborne 3. > > Keep your eyes open, there are others out there. I've seen one at > Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ > bogus price for it, something like $100. > > -Frank McConnell > Funny you should mention these guys. I don't uderstand how they've managed to stay in business! I *really* needed a couple of 8" floppy drives a couple of years ago when I lived in San Jose. They had a pile of them -- for $75.00 a whack! I didn't bite. They were gone a couple of weeks later, I asked what became of them, and they said that nobody wanted them, so they were scrapped! Have you ever seen a grown man cry? Jeff From HamiJohn at aol.com Mon Jul 14 09:47:50 1997 From: HamiJohn at aol.com (HamiJohn@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5110 Message-ID: <970714104633_-291873603@emout02.mail.aol.com> Hi, Had one at work in the late 70's/early 80's. What specifically would you like to know? John Hamilton hamijohn@aol.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:17:55 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <01IL7ZPW0V6UA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> > > > Just curious (again!) if anyone is collecting the early modems used on > > > computers and what might have been the earliest commercial phone modem. > > > > I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this > > Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > > Are you referring to the AppleCat? Nope, I'm referring to a plain old Novation CAT 300 baud acoustic coupled modem. I saved it from the trash heap a few years ago because I was going on travel somewhere that I knew A) I would have to do some remote access from my hotel room and 2) the hotel room didn't have modular jacks. It was the only acoustic coupler I could find and worked great. I haven't had the heart to toss it out since. BTW, this would have been about '92 that I was using 300 baud modems from hotel rooms... Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:19:05 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <01IL7ZT9CSWCA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> >On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this >> Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > >Hmm; I just picked one of these up with an incomplete Apple ][plus system >that I haven't yet had time to muck with, short of cleaning it up a bit. >What's special about it? Absolutely nothing. It's a standard 300 baud modem. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:33:29 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Bigger problem with VMS Message-ID: <01IL803BZF1EA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> > As I have no username/password, I can't shut it down right! > How do I shut down VMS without losing the harddisk? > Can I just power it off? OK, a few things about VMS. To break into VMS, boot it /1 like this: >>> b/1 It will give you a SYSBOOT> prompt, at which time you tell it to use the console for the startup command file: SYSBOOT> set/start=opa0: SYSBOOT> continue Then it'll boot farther and give you a $ prompt. What I usually do here is this: $ spawn <<< spawning SYSTEM_1 message >> $ @sys$system:startup This executes the startup file. When the startup file exits, you get the $ prompt back. At that point, you can: $ spawn $ set def sys$system: $ mc authorize UAF> set system/password=whatever UAF> ^Z $ At this point, you can either shut the system down: $ @sys$system:shutdown [[[ you can punch return to all the questions ]]] and power cycle the system or just hit the power switch. Unlike Unix, VMS doesn't eat the disk if the power goes out unexpectedly; normally, you'll want to shut it down with the shutdown command, though (what happens if any files are open is that blocks allocated to those files are marked as allocated in the bitmap but not recorded as belonging to those files in the directory; if you just turn the power off, you'll essentially lose space on the mounted disks that have open files). The next time you boot, the system will remember that it wants to use the console as the startup command file, so you'll have to do the "conversational boot" again and set it back: >>> b/1 SYSBOOT> set/start=sys$system:startup.com SYSBOOT> continue Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 10:54:25 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> References: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <525C391161A@ifrsys.com> Guys: I have a few WD-1000 host adaptors, and I need to get some information about them. Western Dig. is of not much help-- their web site dosen't carry docs from that far back. I used to have a chart delineating what controller card was what, but I've since lost it. There aren't PeeCee host adaptors; rather they are the same footprint as a 5.25' floppy drive (actually, one is bigger). One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would really appreciate it. Thanks Jeff From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 11:41:44 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <525C391161A@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 09:54:25 am Message-ID: <9707141541.AA10635@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/818d0fe0/attachment-0001.ksh From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 13:45:57 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Apple IIe System Disks and Manuals Available References: <199707141245.AA27270@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33CA73E5.760F@mindspring.com> There is a set of system disks and about 6 or 7 various manuals for the AppleIIe for sale in the local thrift shop. I didn't buy then because I have no apples! The price is 4.00 and the disks (one 3.5", one 5 1/4") look in new condition. There are a couple of shrinkwrapped manuals among the pile. If anyone needs these, or is interested in them, please let me know, and I will go pick them up. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 14 10:55:25 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors Message-ID: <01IL80UB1KEGA4R68O@cc.usu.edu> >> I have a few WD-1000 host adaptors, and I need to get some >> information about them. Western Dig. is of not much help-- their web >> site dosen't carry docs from that far back. >> >> I used to have a chart delineating what controller card was what, but >> I've since lost it. There aren't PeeCee host adaptors; rather they >> are the same footprint as a 5.25' floppy drive (actually, one is >> bigger). > >I'm pretty sure that these aren't host adapters; I think they're >controllers in the traditional SCSI sense. (i.e. you sandwich >them between the SCSI bus and a MFM or ESDI drive.) Somewhere I have docs on the WD1002-05 which, IIRC, has a WD1000-compatible hardware interface. The exception is that the WD1000 supplies a WAIT signal and the WD1002 doesn't. "The WD1002-05 has been designed to interface to a Host processor via a parallel port or CPU bus configurations. The specific signals are compatible with the WD1000/WD1001 series of Winchester-only controller boards. With the inclusion of the WD1015, the previous WAIT signal is no longer necessary, but has been provided for compatability; status information is always available to the Host for monitoring command progress. When the Busy bit is set, no other status bits are valid." The host connector is a 40 pin connector. Of this, all even pins are grounds. The other pins are: 1 -15 : DAL0 through DAL7 respectively 17-21 : A0 through A2, respectively 23 : CS 25 : WE 27 : RE 29 : Pulled up on the WD1002; this is probably WAIT on the 1000. 31, 33: Not connected 35 : Interrupt request 37 : DMA request 39 : Reset I suspect the interrupt request, DMA request, and Reset ar all asserted high; the photocopied manual section I have doesn't make this clear. The WD1002 is programmed like an IDE controller with an 8-bit data register. I suspect the WD1000 is as well. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 14 11:33:38 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.19970712102347.006b0c34@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970714123338.006b68a0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 03:57 AM 7/13/97 +0000, you wrote: >On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, James Carter wrote: > >> We had one of those vibrating football games, what a joke :) >> >I still have one of those vibrating football games. I always liked it, >even if it was not much like modern football (no passing). > >--pec The one we had did have passing. A little foam football with a spring-loaded quarterback. I lost interest playing it just three times, after watching all the pieces vibrate everywhere except where you wanted them to. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 12:02:03 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <9707141541.AA10635@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <525C391161A@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 09:54:25 am Message-ID: <563BD257A06@ifrsys.com> > > I have a few WD-1000 host adaptors, and I need to get some > > information about them. Western Dig. is of not much help-- their web > > site dosen't carry docs from that far back. > > > > I used to have a chart delineating what controller card was what, but > > I've since lost it. There aren't PeeCee host adaptors; rather they > > are the same footprint as a 5.25' floppy drive (actually, one is > > bigger). > > I'm pretty sure that these aren't host adapters; I think they're > controllers in the traditional SCSI sense. (i.e. you sandwich > them between the SCSI bus and a MFM or ESDI drive.) Ah, yeah, they're CONTROLLER cards. Can you tell I've spent WAY too much time in the PeeCee business? > > > One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If > > anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would > > really appreciate it. > > The Emulex SCSI controllers (adapting to MFM, SMD, or ESDI drives) are also ^^^^^^ I have a *MAJOR* axe to grind with these guys, dating from way back, BTW. > known by the folks who hang out on the Sun newsgroups (especially > comp.sys.sun.hardware). They might know something about other brands, > too. Cool. I'll follow this lead, and see where it takes me. Jeff From smorang at enm.maine.edu Mon Jul 14 11:54:24 1997 From: smorang at enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: He shoots! He Boots! Heath Lives! References: <3.0.32.19970712001937.00a44650@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33CA59C0.68E40FF8@enm.maine.edu> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Whilst in a self-induced trance, Stacy C. Morang happened to blather: > >On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > You're right, but they seem to format to only 320K (8 sectors/track, not 9) > with the DOS I do have, which is listed in the stats of the machine I > listed below... If you give the format program a '/9' parameter you get nine sectors, at least in dos 2. > >Top, I think. (I have one, but I only got it for the Winchester drive > >card). > > Whaddya did with the rest? A few spare parts might be nice (or a color > tube, if yours had it... ;-) No color tube (you can activate color on the video card with 18 64K (or 32K) memory chips (4164, I believe)) - I might be able to help with some things, however I am keeping the machine as a backup / parts for my Low-profile unit (I need one to make 8" formatted disks). > > I don't doubt your memory, but I think this is a (prolly earlier) version > of the monitor rom... specs to follow. I fat-fingered *all* the keys on it, > and here's what works: > > B -- boots. Accepts parameters of: 0, 1, 2, 3, and that tells it what > floppy to boot from. Plain B assumes floppy 0, which is top. Thanks! All > else beeps with invalid parameter, except "S", which appears to do nothing. > Would this be boot from the serial port, perchance? > > V -- Version of the monitor rom, which is Version 1.02. > > Nothing else worked... I think the version I have is 1.05, but I'm just guessing. > Questions: > > 2. How high can this rascal go in memory? I located 3 banks (9 each -- > parity) of 64kx1 300ns DRAM, two of which are populated. Mathmatically, > that works to: 128K RAM. The third bank is empty. Can I pop in 9 more chips > without setting any jumpers/dipswitches? How about bigger DRAMS? (prolly > not... but it's worth an ask!) Still, 192K is still pretty good for a > machine from '82! Yes, you can add 64K DRAMS - the heath versions came with 128K, the Zenith (for business use, presumably) came with 192. If you change a couple of the PALs, and depending on how on how old it is, maybe something else, you probably can put 256K DRAMS in it. There are several documents that talk about such modifications, look in SIMTEL-20 archives, among others. > (also, on the question of jumpers... anyone have a tech-like manual for > this thing I could get a copy of... or at least a copy of the important > pages?) I have most, if not all of the technical stuff, I'll have to dig it out as it is packed away, so don't let me forget. > > 3. The video board which is based on the Motorola 68A45P video chip, > presently has 64K onboard for *just* the green section of the board. The chips may be 32K parts (64k parts with one half dead). This > rascal can handle 192K Video Memory!!! Funky! ;^> (that is, if I'm reading > the boards right.... but CHKDSK doesn't return the added video memory, so > that'd seem correct.) Does the board support any form of graphics? I tried > the standard basic commands (ZBasic was on the floppy) but it seemed only > to work in text. Yes, it does handle graphics, (you can get 640x400 out of it with out too much difficulty). I don't remember how ZBasic, which is not the same as GW-BASIC or BASICA, makes graphics. > Well folks, I havta say: This is one *sweet* machine! :-) It is much more sophisticated and capable than the IBM-PC, but was marketed rather poorly. I still have a review on it somewhere. > >I'm not sure what the licensing requirements are, however, I do have > >several OS's for the machine - I'm sure something can be worked out. > > Did Heath/Zenith bundle an OS with the disk systems? If so, wouldn't I own > a license to own a copy of the included OS, as I own the machine? I'm not > sure how stuff like that works, especially on the old stuff. > Nope. That was separate, as you had choices. I doubt anyone is too keen on suing over a copy of Z-Dos 1.25, (or the P-system for that matter), but it would be wise to try to see if anyone cares. -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 14 12:33:18 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: help with NCR 1203-6000? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Richard W. Schauer wrote: > I may have a chance to get a NCR Model 1203-6000 (it's about one step > from abandonment). It appears to work and run both CP/M-80 and MS-DOS. > On the serial number sticker it lists its manufacturer as NCR GmbH- am I > to assume this may mean it is of German origin? I'm afraid that I'm not familiar with that model, I didn't get involved with NCR PC's until 1988. I do know that most of NCR's PC's were built in West Germany through 1989 at least. (In early '90 I got uninvolved with NCR systems, so I don't know subsequent manufacturing practices, but I did take apart an NCR PC-925 once, and it had an AMI motherboard). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 12:17:53 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <4E62F444A07@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > Halted in Santa Clara but as usual for Halted they were asking a > ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^ > Funny you should mention these guys. I don't uderstand how they've > managed to stay in business! I *really* needed a couple of 8" floppy > drives a couple of years ago when I lived in San Jose. They had a > pile of them -- for $75.00 a whack! I didn't bite. > > They were gone a couple of weeks later, I asked what became of them, > and they said that nobody wanted them, so they were scrapped! Some of these surplus stores have real turkeys running them. That's why Weird Stuff fell from glory. They always had cool stuff (they had a couple Lisa's when I went there in 1993) but they always wanted ridiculous prices for the crap. I mean they had stuff going for $50 that nobody would take at a flea market for free. Some people just have no business sense... Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 12:12:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 14 12:59:02 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, Ray Stricklin wrote: > There is also a 'Miniframe' that Convergent produced, and I've had more > luck finding info on. I get the impression, though, that it's more of a > standard PC-type box than the modular ones that you and I have stumbled on > to. I have the Miniframe FAQ version 0.7 on my box here, in postscript > form. I haven't read it yet. The ASCII version I found was only at version > 0.3 and not particularly helpful. The "Miniframe" (like all Convergent *frame systems) was based on a Motorola CPU, not Intel, therefore it was actually functional. Its normal operating system was Convergent's version of Unix, CTIX. It was first cousin to the AT&T Unix PC Model 7300 and 3B1, which Convergent also built. (And in my not in the least humble opinion, the Unix PC is _still_ one of the most aesthetically pleasing desktop systems _ever_ put on the market). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 14 12:42:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Apple IIe System Disks and Manuals Available In-Reply-To: <33CA73E5.760F@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Scott: I am VERY interested in those Apple ][e items.... would you pick them up for me. I would pay the initial cost ($4 ??), plus your shipping, and maybe a couple of bucks for your effort? Thanks a lot, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > There is a set of system disks and about 6 or 7 various manuals for the > AppleIIe for sale in the local thrift shop. I didn't buy then because I > have no apples! The price is 4.00 and the disks (one 3.5", one 5 1/4") > look in new condition. There are a couple of shrinkwrapped manuals among > the pile. > > If anyone needs these, or is interested in them, please let me know, and > I will go pick them up. > > Kirk Scott > dynasoar@mindspring.com > From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 14 13:18:54 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: <33C767B7.6142@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. That conflicts with my memories. Remember, the Lisa didn't appear for six years after the Apple II. Jobs is the one who talked Woz into redesigning his homebrew system for production. Far from being against the Apple II, that machine was what kept Jobs eating long enough to fail with the Lisa and barely break even with the early Mac systems. (We needn't discuss his more recent "successes" -- even though I thought the NeXt cubes were pretty neat). -- Ward Griffiths "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 14:23:51 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <563BD257A06@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 11:02:03 am Message-ID: <9707141823.AA11496@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/8b5f9def/attachment-0001.ksh From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 14 13:33:46 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: HHC Message-ID: <199707141433_MC2-1AD7-A507@compuserve.com> Message text written by Sam: >I figure total shipping costs will be $4 for a single unit, $5 for a couple, etc. Not sure exactly. I realize the shipping costs may not be what some people bargained for so at this point I would ask that if you want to or need to back out, please do it soon. I am going to try and negotiate a lump sum for the total units that will hopefully bring the cost per unit to $7. That's what I'm shooting for.< I don't know why anyone in their right mind would back out. You said originally $10 per unit, and if the above figures work out, that would end up $12 for a single unit delivered; not bad at all. In fact, for the folks who asked for two, the above figures would product $19 delivered, CHEAPER than you originally said. Still, you're left doing an awful lot of packaging, etc. You might at least want to build in $1-$2 a unit "profit" just to compensate for all your time and effort. On 400 units, that would at least get you a few nice dinners! Please accept our thanks for all your work on this. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 14 13:59:44 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? References: Message-ID: <33CA7720.D75@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. If it was IBM, it probably would have been a good thing to grab onto (assuming the price was right!) I've been working with this stuff (MS-DOS machines) since about 1983 and I have yet to see one. Another thing I've been looking for without success is an IBM Cassette recorder for the IBM PC cassette interface. I've heard they really do exist. From dynasoar at mindspring.com Mon Jul 14 17:18:57 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: WD1002-05 (Was Western Digital Host Adaptors) References: <33CA7720.D75@rain.org> Message-ID: <33CAA5D1.186B@mindspring.com> Roger Ivie wrote: >Somewhere I have docs on the WD1002-05 which, IIRC, has a WD1000-compatible >hardware interface. The exception is that the WD1000 supplies a WAIT signal >and the WD1002 doesn't. ... I am DESPERATELY in need of a WD1002-05 to rejuvenate a Xerox 16/8! Do you have one or know where I can get one? I believe that certain Kaypro models used this same controller. Would you be willing to share those docs? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Jul 14 14:48:00 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Modem Collection Message-ID: <970714154716_1047778008@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-14 11:38:57 EDT, you write: actually, i've heard that novation applecat modem was desired by the hacker/phone phreak crowd because of it's abilities. i think it could emulate the dialing tones and do dtmf to make free phone calls. anyone have any correct or detailed info about this? << >> I'm not doing it on purpose, but I find myself unable to let go of this >> Novation CAT modem that I dredged up a few years ago... > >Hmm; I just picked one of these up with an incomplete Apple ][plus system >that I haven't yet had time to muck with, short of cleaning it up a bit. >What's special about it? Absolutely nothing. It's a standard 300 baud modem. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu >> david From chemif at mbox.queen.it Mon Jul 14 15:06:47 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: GPIB in chemical labs (adding to Re: HP 9836, HP 86) Message-ID: <199707142006.WAA00324@mbox.queen.it> At 23:45 13/07/97 GMT, you wrote: >>GPIB = General-Purpose Interface Bus. Aka IEEE-488, and very similar to >HPIB (= Hewlett-Packard Interface bus). HP were the company who designed it, >but it turns up on all sorts of machines. > >It's an 8-bit parallel interface using a 24 pin connector. 8 pins are ground, >8 are data, 3 are handshake, and 5 are bus control/management. It was >originally designed to link up lab equipment (DVMs, counters, digital 'scopes, But also for interfacing Analytical Instruments (Spectrophotometers, Gas Chromatography etc.) for chemical laboratory, where HP is still one of the most important developing company, and where GPIB is still used. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 14:46:07 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? In-Reply-To: <33CA7720.D75@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. > > If it was IBM, it probably would have been a good thing to grab onto > (assuming the price was right!) I've been working with this stuff > (MS-DOS machines) since about 1983 and I have yet to see one. Another > thing I've been looking for without success is an IBM Cassette recorder > for the IBM PC cassette interface. I've heard they really do exist. Hmmm, yeah I was re-considering that one. I'm going over there today so if its still there I'll grab it. Haven't found a IBM cassette recorder either but I did pick up an IBM joystick (had IBM logo on it and the word "Joystick") plus it had a funky square connector which looked like it goes to the PCjr. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jul 14 15:33:40 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: "Jeff Kaneko"'s message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:44:55 -0600 References: <4E62F444A07@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Jeff Kaneko" wrote: > > Halted in Santa Clara > Funny you should mention these guys. I don't uderstand how they've > managed to stay in business! I *really* needed a couple of 8" floppy > drives a couple of years ago when I lived in San Jose. They had a > pile of them -- for $75.00 a whack! I didn't bite. I think Weird Stuff pulled something like this around December 1995, not too long before they vacated their Kern Avenue storefront. Yeah, right, like I am going to pay $75 for used-and-abused 8" drives when the dealer hasn't even taken the time to sort out single/double sided let alone single/double density. Halted has a decent store of small parts. They are good for that, if like me you are not real good at organization and planning your component needs with enough lead time to deal with mail-order. And they keep their selection of connectors better organized than some other nearby outfits (Haltek in Mountain View just has no concept of how to do this -- well, actually I haven't been there in a while, and have been avoiding the connector aisles there for quite a while longer). Sometimes they have hard-to-find small parts. E.g. three or four years ago they had sourced some of those funky SCSI connectors like Sun used to use: the female D connectors with 50 pins arranged as three rows. Specifically these were the IDC flavor designed to crimp onto flat cable -- just the ticket if you were setting up a disk box for a Sun! Pricey at $11, but the thought of the amount of time I would spend soldering 50 little wires from a flat cable into 50 little cups was a good motivating factor. So I bought a few, and I gather other folks did too because one time I found myself waiting for them to get new stock in. > They were gone a couple of weeks later, I asked what became of them, > and they said that nobody wanted them, so they were scrapped! > > Have you ever seen a grown man cry? Yeah, I have seen them perpetrate other crocks, like the HP 2100 mini that they were selling for $100? $200? I can't remember. What I do remember is that someone had thoughtfully removed all the cards from the CPU, and with my naturally cynical outlook I expect that means they were easy pickings for gold recovery. To be fair there were some other peripherals there, but the hassle involved in moving the lot (all set in a 19" rack) and finding some place to put it was additional discouragement -- besides which I did not have as much experience with the other bits and so was not able to determine on the spot whether they had already been gutted (though it looked like some cabling had been removed as well). It's not entirely clear to me how the surplus-electronics business works here in Sillycon Valley, but one thing is obvious: the primary moneymaker is in the movement of large lots, probably from auctions and companies seeking to be rid of obsolete hardware, through the surplus business and I am guessing on the way to precious-metals recovery operations. If the surplus businesses see little bits that they think will work better being sold as onesies-and-twosies to people looking for upgrades/spares for their trailing-edge PCs (or to people looking for deals on test equipment), then those will come out to the showroom floor. And that can be a profitable niche too, so they try to price accordingly (i.e. cheap enough to make it look like a better deal than upgrading, but not so cheap as to lose much of the profit they could make -- gotta pay for that showroom floor somehow). This has a side effect, too: some of the surplus dealers have a bad attitude toward walk-ins. They know you're not likely a moneymaker, so they are apt to blow off simple questions like "got any more of these?" I got this from the guys at Sharon Industries in San Jose one day a few months ago -- I had wandered in to pick up one or two dinky Unisys PCs that I had seen there and thought would make nice little routers if configured with a small hard disk. The place was messier than usual -- maybe they were reorganizing or maybe they were trying to look like Mike Quinn's, I dunno; they certainly hadn't bothered to close the door or hang a sign up ("closed for remodeling"?). The display was still out, though, so I inquired. First he was asking me if I wanted them today, and when I said "yeah, I could take one or two today" (thinking I should leave the door open for him to say "I can't get to them right now, how about tomorrow?") he changed his tune to "oh, I sold 'em all to Halted." The thought that crossed my mind was: except the one you keep on the shelf for people to look at, right? I haven't been back -- maybe I am a pain in the hindquarters but I really prefer dealing with folks I think are capable of being honest. Speaking of pains in the hindquarters, there is another surplus dealer (RA Electronics) who just plain got out of the computer business, and the rumor is that this is because they got fed up with people coming back asking for support for whatever PC junk they had purchased there. So I'm sure that there are some pains worse than I out there -- I at least am working from the assumption that I am buying someone else's junk as-is. -Frank McConnell From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 15:35:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: (Fwd) Message-ID: <199707142035.AA25347@world.std.com> ->Here's a real classic for ya. I'd have killed for a system like ->this one, but married life, no room, no time, blah blah blah . . . ->Anyone have a use for a ->Motorola 6800 Exorcisor ->System? This is a real I have the granmother to that the 6800D1 board. If it has a 6809 it's not as old as one with a 6800! Delopment systems are real collectable as they are fewer in numbers. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 15:35:35 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors Message-ID: <199707142035.AA25474@world.std.com> ->I'm pretty sure that these aren't host adapters; I think they're ->controllers in the traditional SCSI sense. (i.e. you sandwich ->them between the SCSI bus and a MFM or ESDI drive.) -> ->> One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If ->> anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would ->> really appreciate it. Tim, They may be host adaptors depending on the suffix they can be host or SASI (pre-scsi). I know the 1002-05/hdo is host. Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 16:45:22 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: Western Digital Host Adaptors In-Reply-To: <199707142035.AA25474@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jul 14, 97 04:35:35 pm Message-ID: <9707142045.AA10850@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/e4717f6e/attachment-0001.ksh From josh at netins.net Mon Jul 14 10:33:12 1997 From: josh at netins.net (Josh M. Nutzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: HHC UPDATE Message-ID: <199707142133.QAA00911@ins2.netins.net> >dastar@crl.com could you bump my order down to two? Thanks! Josh M. Nutzman +----------------------------------------------+ |"Life is like a river, you go with the flow...| | but in the end you usually end up dammed." | | -The Red Green Show | +----------------------------------------------+ From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 14 17:31:43 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: "Jeff Kaneko"'s message of Mon, 14 Jul 1997 08:44:55 -0600 Message-ID: <691959A6883@ifrsys.com> Frank McConnell Wrote: > > This has a side effect, too: some of the surplus dealers have a bad > attitude toward walk-ins. They know you're not likely a moneymaker, > so they are apt to blow off simple questions like "got any more of > these?" I got this from the guys at Sharon Industries in San Jose one > day a few months ago -- I had wandered in to pick up one or two dinky > Unisys PCs that I had seen there and thought would make nice little > routers if configured with a small hard disk. The place was messier > than usual -- maybe they were reorganizing or maybe they were trying > to look like Mike Quinn's, I dunno; they certainly hadn't bothered to > close the door or hang a sign up ("closed for remodeling"?). The > display was still out, though, so I inquired. First he was asking me > if I wanted them today, and when I said "yeah, I could take one or two > today" (thinking I should leave the door open for him to say "I can't > get to them right now, how about tomorrow?") he changed his tune to > "oh, I sold 'em all to Halted." The thought that crossed my mind was: > except the one you keep on the shelf for people to look at, right? I > haven't been back -- maybe I am a pain in the hindquarters but I > really prefer dealing with folks I think are capable of being honest. > Awww, man. This reminds me of a electronic junk dealer I used to go to in L.A.: Space Age Metals. Just the name makes me wanna cringe: barrels and barrels of aluminum turnings, next to bits of mini's, mainframes, and god-knows-what else. To show any interest at all in something was sheer death: Before you showed up it was SCRAP ($.01 - .05 /lb, max) but if they think you want it because it is some *really scarce* piece of hardware, allova sudden its "Well, that system sold for 'that much' at auction". Oy. I had a really hard time appearing to be *greatly* disinterested in stuff (as a forklifts were spearing and hefting S-100 and multibus cardcages in a rather unconcerned and offhanded way). What a life. This hobby can give you a headache, soemtimes. Jeff From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 18:32:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:18 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <691959A6883@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 04:31:43 pm Message-ID: <9707142232.AA12641@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1941 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/8553b6c3/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 14 18:45:25 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Jul 14, 97 01:33:40 pm Message-ID: <9707142245.AA20191@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 926 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970714/be95189a/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 18:14:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Modem Collection In-Reply-To: <970714154716_1047778008@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 97-07-14 11:38:57 EDT, you write: > > actually, i've heard that novation applecat modem was desired by the > hacker/phone phreak crowd because of it's abilities. i think it could emulate > the dialing tones and do dtmf to make free phone calls. anyone have any > correct or detailed info about this? That's correct for the most part (the part about being desirable to hacks/phreaks). It could generate most any tone you programmed it to, plus it could generate MF (multi-frequency, used for inter-switch signalling). It also had a tone decoder option. Someone wrote an answering machine program that utilized SAM (Software Automated Mouth, a speech synthesizer available on the 6502 based computers of the time such as Atari, Commodore, Apple...) a micro-cassette recorder and the AppleCat II which had phono plugs on it. The call would come into the modem which would go off-hook, then SAM was used to play the outgoing message (piped through the modem) then the micro-cassette recorder was used to record the incoming message. Pretty neat. I have this program if anyone is interested. It has docs explaining the hookup and all. Of course you'll need an AppleCat II and an Apple (won't work with just the Apple Cat). Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 14 18:30:24 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: HHC In-Reply-To: <199707141433_MC2-1AD7-A507@compuserve.com> Message-ID: Sorry for this short little blurb, but I have to agree completely with what was spoken about, below.... Thanks a ton, Sam, for negotiating all this for us. I know most, if not all, the others agree!! Thanks again, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by Sam: > >I figure total shipping costs will be $4 for a single unit, $5 for a > couple, etc. Not sure exactly. > I realize the shipping costs may not be what some people bargained for so > at this point I would ask that if you want to or need to back out, please > do it soon. > I am going to try and negotiate a lump sum for the total units that will > hopefully bring the cost per unit to $7. That's what I'm shooting for.< > > I don't know why anyone in their right mind would back out. You said > originally $10 per unit, and if the above figures work out, that would end > up $12 for a single unit delivered; not bad at all. In fact, for the folks > who asked for two, the above figures would product $19 delivered, CHEAPER > than you originally said. > > Still, you're left doing an awful lot of packaging, etc. You might at > least want to build in $1-$2 a unit "profit" just to compensate for all > your time and effort. On 400 units, that would at least get you a few nice > dinners! Please accept our thanks for all your work on this. > > Gil Parrish > 107765.1161@compuserve.com > > From s-ware at nwu.edu Mon Jul 14 18:37:09 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <9707142232.AA12641@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Dealing with the surplus-selling folk is, indeed, an art. I usually > go out of my way to make life easy for them and hope they'll give > me a break in return. Remember, these guys have to make a living > at what they do! Never expect anything for free - you gotta make > it worth their while! Visiting a "computer recycling center" on a scrounging run is something that I have been considering for quite a while. Other than the obvious problem of seeing literally tons of "good stuff" that there is no way that you can possibly rescue, what experiences have other collectors had with these places? I have seen newspaper articles about at least two such places here in Chicago, one of which claimed to process 200 tons of computers per month. A local TV show interviewed the operator of one computer recycling center who stated something along the lines of "It's all obsolete, we grind 'em for metal". Meanwhile, SPARCs were flying off of a truck in the background. Admittedly, most of the equipment at these places seemed to be standard PC-clone junk, but there have got to be some real gems out there, given the quantity of equipment that these places "process". So, what experiences have others had with computer scrapyards? How willing are the operators to let collectors in to look around? How much over "scrap" prices do you usually have to pay? And, most of all, should someone who can't even throw away an empty Apple II hulk dare to set foot inside one of these places? -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 19:14:40 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707142033.NAA17682@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 14 Jul 1997, Frank McConnell wrote: > It's not entirely clear to me how the surplus-electronics business > works here in Sillycon Valley, but one thing is obvious: the primary > moneymaker is in the movement of large lots, probably from auctions > and companies seeking to be rid of obsolete hardware, through the I generally find the surplus shops to be over-priced. This is definitely not true of Mike Quinn's, which is extremely reasonable (and realistic) with pricing. Never been to Haltek, but Halted Specialties and Wierd Stuff always are pricey on their stuff. I wonder if they realized that if they'd lower their prices they'd move that stuff a lot faster. Techies would come in and see a certain connector or part going for real cheap and think "Hmmmm, that's so cheap I'll get 2 or 3 extras in case I ever need one again". The part moves faster, they don't have stuff sitting around taking up floor space forever and they get some money back. Simple economics, the likes of which I don't think any of the nerds at those stores ever learned in high school. > Speaking of pains in the hindquarters, there is another surplus dealer > (RA Electronics) who just plain got out of the computer business, and > the rumor is that this is because they got fed up with people coming > back asking for support for whatever PC junk they had purchased there. I think the most obnoxious surplus store is Surplus Stuff in Milpitas. In 1993 when I went there a couple times they were selling used computer stuff at about 5% below retail! They also sold a lot of office furniture and equipment which was also pricey for being used. It amazes me that places like that stay in business. My theory is that they are a front for a drug or chip smuggling operation. Apologizes to all the non-Silicon Valley folk having to see all this localized blather. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 14 20:24:00 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: <2758@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. Ah yes, the 5161... It is/was a device for adding 6 more slots to a PC, PC/XT or Portable-PC (basically any of the 8-bit bus system). The 5161 itself was a PC/XT cabinet with an 8-slot passive backplane (OK, there was a 14.? MHz oscillator in there) and a standard PSU. There were a pair of cards (the 'extender' and the 'receiver') and a 62 pin cable that linked them. You put the extender into one slot of the 'host' system, the 'receiver' into the passive backplane, and linked them together. You could put I/O or memory cards (although not graphics cards AFAIK) into the remaining slots of the 5161. One problem with buying one of these second-hand is that the extender card (and often the cable) is almost always missing - it's been left in the host. And that card is difficult to find. Schematics, etc are in Volume one of the Options and Adapters TechRef. > Sam -tony From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:30 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180712.442f8f48@ricochet.net> At 11:45 PM 7/13/97 GMT, you wrote: >GPIB = General-Purpose Interface Bus. Aka IEEE-488, and very similar to >HPIB (= Hewlett-Packard Interface bus). HP were the company who designed it, >but it turns up on all sorts of machines. It's *the* bus used for disk drives, tape drives, printers, etc. for classic (and, to a lesser extent, spectrum) HP 3000 minicomputers. Trust me, I've got a basement full of 'em. (Bought my 3000 to use -- it's what I do for a living.) Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Commodore PET's used IEEE-488 for disk drives, as well as lab stuff. I'm pretty sure I've got an IEEE-488 interface for the VIC-20 around somewhere. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:26 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180708.442ff6ba@ricochet.net> At 02:11 PM 7/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the >drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's >what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga The c1702 is a very nice monitor. On the back is (IIRC) RGB connectors (or composite? or something like that) but on the front is standard video and audio in. As in, TV. If you hook up a VCR (with a tuner or cable connection), you've got yourself a very nice TV. A few years back, I set up a VCR and 1702 combo on one of those hospital tables for my dad and he spent his time there watching movies (actually, videos of a local teen theatre group -- ). It makes for a very compact setup. I would love to find one or two for <$10 and use them for exactly that. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:22 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180704.442f7e9c@ricochet.net> At 10:34 PM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Is the display looks like it was using same LED display, "hair thin" >segments under the plastic lens? That would fit with what I remember. If all the lights were lit up, it would look a lot like this: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Only a little closer, vertically. The lights really looked like little red hyphens. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Mon Jul 14 20:05:13 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970714180655.442fad8c@ricochet.net> At 09:24 PM 7/11/97 -0500, you wrote: >In regard to your post about the old hand held football game... I [...] >believe it was the SAME one that was manufactured by Coleco, or a similar I think the one I had was a Coleco or somebody like that, but I could be wrong. >around. Just the other day, I was in a thrift store in Nebraska City, NE >and they had a pile of 'old' handhelds. I didn't have time to look through >it close, though.... but I'm darn sure they did have a football game or >two though. I'll go back and check it out for you, though. Oh, while were That would be fantastic! I don't know what they sell for now, but I can't imagine it would be bank breaking. Thanks! >on the subject of old football games.... how about those darned magnetic >full-field table football games they used to make?? Do they still exist? I know what you mean, but I never had one. I doubt they still make them; Everyone plays Joe Blow Football '97 on the Super Nintendo nowadays. (My girlfriend's brother does anyway.) I can't even say I've seen one recently. The Musee Mechanique at the Cliff House here in San Francisco probably has one (and other, even older games too!) If you're ever in the City and like that sort of thing, definitely stop in. They have modern games as well as old stuff. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 21:21:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? In-Reply-To: <2758@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Tony Duell wrote: > > I saw an interesting relic in the thrift store the other day...and IBM PC > > "Expansion Chassis" (I believe that's what it was called). It was > > basically an IBM PC case with two full height hard drives instead of > > floppy drives. It's model number was 5161 (if I recall correctly). > > Didn't bother with it, even though it is kinda unique. > > Ah yes, the 5161... > > It is/was a device for adding 6 more slots to a PC, PC/XT or Portable-PC > (basically any of the 8-bit bus system). The 5161 itself was a PC/XT cabinet > with an 8-slot passive backplane (OK, there was a 14.? MHz oscillator in > there) and a standard PSU. There were a pair of cards (the 'extender' and the > 'receiver') and a 62 pin cable that linked them. You put the extender into one > slot of the 'host' system, the 'receiver' into the passive backplane, and linked > them together. You could put I/O or memory cards (although not graphics cards > AFAIK) into the remaining slots of the 5161. Thanks for the information. I went back and picked it up, and was waiting to crack it open before I posted about it, but I guess you did all the work for me. > One problem with buying one of these second-hand is that the extender card (and > often the cable) is almost always missing - it's been left in the host. And that > card is difficult to find. Yep. Now I have something to live for. I will not leave this earth until I find the host card and cable. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Mon Jul 14 21:33:52 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707150233.AA14422@interlock.ans.net> > Meanwhile, SPARCs were flying off of a truck in the background. Yes, the government sold off many SPARCstation 370s and 470s a while back. > Admittedly, most of the equipment at these places seemed to be standard > PC-clone junk, but there have got to be some real gems out there, given > the quantity of equipment that these places "process". I wish I could have saved a Univac tape drive just a bit back. Stuff made by Univac is very rare, in that the company had what is known as a "scortched earth" policy - grind up all of the old machines, so there is no used market. I have seen many gems from DEC, mostly mid-1970s PDP-11s and early VAXen. I have yet to see any 12, 18, or 36 bit stuff from them, however. The old IBMs never show up - most coming out now are 3081 and 3090 machines (there is hope, as I heard a 360 was decommisioned in 1995!). I have also seen early SGI equipment, but not much early Sun (I do not know why). Never give up on junkyards. I have pulled some absolutely wild things out of some of them - things I never thought I would ever see, let alone purchase. Junkyards, unfortunately, are not the places to find classic micros. > So, what experiences have others had with computer scrapyards? How > willing are the operators to let collectors in to look around? Generally, not very. Most do not want to be hassled - some (including ones I deal with) are on an invitation only basis (sorry guys, I tried). > How much > over "scrap" prices do you usually have to pay Depends on the owner. For ancient radio/radar equipment, I go to a place in Pennsylvania. The owner and I get along, so much of it goes for exactly what he can get for it - generally $0.25 per pound, if there is little steel in it. Most other places, on the pther hand, will gouge - expect up to a dollar a pound, even if there is much steel (the markup is incredible - most junkyards pay 1 to 5 cents per pound). Prices I have paid: SPARCstation 470 power supply - $25 Extended VAXstation 2000 with disk - $20 RD54s in expansion bricks - $20/each Apollo 10000 (loaded, no drives) - $100 Sun 3,4/280 (loaded, 32 megs, no drives) - $75 PDP-11/23 (new) - $25 Various cards - $2 - $5 Cool IBM air cooled TCM from a mainframe (~900 pins!) - $2 And more... Keep in mind to look for disk drives when shopping in the scrap yards. Most government systems are missing all sorts of data storage devices. Also, look for any required keys (RS/6000s have UNIQUE keys, some Suns as well, unlike the ubiquitous DEC key). Also, always look for moisture! Water inside a transformer can ruin a fine machine. > And, most of all, should > someone who can't even throw away an empty Apple II hulk dare to set foot > inside one of these places? If you are not into minis and workstations, do not bother going. You will not find Commodores, Ataris, old Apples, etc. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 14 21:30:24 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: ActionMax Message-ID: Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it nearly complete, which is rare. Only missing the power supply (common 9V) and the VCR cable. This is a game that you hook to your VCR. It has a light gun and some sort of red either sensor or light (don't know yet). It came with a fighter combat VCR tape that you play in the VCR and I assume you use the gun to shoot at stuff on the screen. I'm sure someone else knows more about it than me. I haven't hooked it up yet. But I won't be able to do anything with it until I get the VCR cable. Anyone know how to rig one up? I also finally found a C16 but it has a broken key in the upper row :( These things apparently aren't too common in these parts as this is the first one I've ever seen. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 14 22:33:16 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sam: I used to have one of those ActioMax games myself, ol' chap. I don't know if it was an ActionMax for sure, but it was one of the VCR shoot-em-up games. Anyway, near as I can remember, you can use just the standard VCR to TV cable (forget the techie name for it) to attach it to the TV. Did your come with a special box that attaches between the VCR and the TV. Not for sure, but I may remember needing that for the sensor to accurately work on the TV. If I remember correctly, you could even cheat the game somehow by getting a long way back from the TV and firing... it would sense a direct hit everytime. Again, not sure, but I do have some vague memories of. All in all, I know nothing, and really can't help you out much. Sorry, but I just wanted to feel important enough to contribute what little I do remember. I guess all I can say for sure is my family used to have one... REALLY! I PROMISE! NOT FIBBING!!! Take it easy, CORD p.s. I doubt the C=16 is for sale, huh? The check's in the mail for the Plus/4... again, PROMISE!! //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it > nearly complete, which is rare. Only missing the power supply (common > 9V) and the VCR cable. This is a game that you hook to your VCR. It has > a light gun and some sort of red either sensor or light (don't know > yet). It came with a fighter combat VCR tape that you play in the VCR > and I assume you use the gun to shoot at stuff on the screen. I'm sure > someone else knows more about it than me. I haven't hooked it up yet. > But I won't be able to do anything with it until I get the VCR cable. > Anyone know how to rig one up? > > I also finally found a C16 but it has a broken key in the upper row :( > These things apparently aren't too common in these parts as this is the > first one I've ever seen. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 14 22:41:36 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) Message-ID: <199707150341.AA22194@world.std.com> ->I have seen many gems from DEC, mostly mid-1970s PDP-11s and early VAXe ->I have yet to see any 12, 18, or 36 bit stuff from them, however. The o there is a reason... PDP-8s were the most prolific and the production nubers were in teh low tens of thousands and many still serve. The 18bit stuff were few to start with and hard as hell to expand so they faded away. the 36bit stuff were also few but interesting. Still many made it to the bone yard for lack of takers years back. Some of the less common machines like the PDP/LINK-12s and PDP-15s were only made in the thousands. PDP-11/23s are however like flies but, one complete with software (or better diags) and clean are scarce. Allison From cerebral at michianatoday.com Mon Jul 14 23:32:18 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJPlajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <04321854002777@michianatoday.com> At 09:35 PM 7/12/97 +0000, you wrote: >> >Yes, I was experimenting with lots of hds/models/brands which I got >some experience with them. If you have any questions about hds, >floppy drives, fire yours to me. :) > >Jason D. > Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 NEC 420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 months continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these drives, it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry an egg on it! :) From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 00:14:06 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJPlajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <05140666602920@michianatoday.com> At 02:11 PM 7/13/97 -0800, you wrote: >My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked >up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor, and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the >drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's >what it's called) through the front connection (This works for the Amiga >500 I also got yesterday). Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the >drive like it's expecting to find something, and I don't get anything on >the display. The C=128 does not need any kind of bootfloppy, it will start up in C=128 mode. if you type GO64, it reverts to a C=64 kernal. and if you want to run CPM, then you need a CPM boot disk, however it is not required to run the machine. this is what I liked about the 128, 3 mahcines in 1! :) for your monitor, the 128 has RF output accessable from the RCA jack, a 5 pin DIN video connector that provides composite, or seperated video plus sound. also there is a RGB 9 pin DSUB connector so you can use ANY CGA monitor for 80 col. for the 1702, you need a video cable(looks like you have this), and use the separated mode for sharper graphics. the buzzing you hear is because you have connected the video out RCA jack to the audio in. You should have 5 phono plugs on the end of the video cable, and a din plug on the other. just experament with all the plugs till it works. the video plug colors usually (but not always) YELLOW - sound RED Video chroma WHITE video Luminace BLACK SOUND GRAY Composite video each manufacturer used different color chemes, and this might be wrong for other cables than mine. also the 1702 has a front panel switch that has 3 positions: 1- monochrome this just makes everything green used for composite video 2- Composite video this is just the standard video in, you can hook your VCR to it for a nice sharp TV!! 3- seperated - this uses seperate lines to feed the video, and this has the best quality >I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even >if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do >I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? Nope. unless you want to run CPM >I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the >old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. shore will. > >The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power >supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It >looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & if it is potted, NOPE. some are unpotted and can be fixed. >New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your >Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some >documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, >so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is >why I switched to computers). > I have these manuals too and I must say that it leaves no tern left unstoned. From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jul 14 21:29:14 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 113 References: <199707140702.AAA14619@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33CAE07B.236F@goldrush.com> > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Some Commie questions > My main question is on the C= 128, along with all the other stuff I picked > up, I got a Commodore 1702 monitor (good composite/Split Composite monitor, ususally JVC or Toshiba Guts) > and a couple 1541 drives. I've got the > drive attached, and the monitor hooked up via a RF cable (I guess that's > what it's called) >through the front connection (This works for the Amiga 500 I also got yesterday). The jack on the front is RF output. > Anyway, I power the thing on, it "buzzes" the drive like it's expecting to find something, > and I don't get anything on the display. When a 128 boots up it will attempt to 'boot' whatever disk is in the drive. A boot disk isn't necessary unless you want to use the CP/M mode of the 128. To boot the 128 into 64 mode hold down the Commodore ket as you turn it on, release and you will be rewarded with a 64 bluescreen. Otherwise it will boot into 128 mode, either 40 or 80 columns depending how you have the 'columns' key locked. > I remember that the C64's like the VIC-20 would drop you at the prompt even > if you had nothing attached, and didn't need any kind of boot floppies. Do > I need some kind of boot disk for this beast? Only for CP/M.. It's a good version too! > I gather a CGA monitor will work, so I guess I should dig out one of the > old Mono-CGA monitors I've got in storage. Only in 80 column mode, the 128 has an RGBI port for that. If you have no color RGBI monitors you can always fasion a composite monochome cable by connecting to pin 7 (monochrome) and pin 1 or 2 (ground) to an RCA plug, that pin was designed for monochome composite output. The best (low cost) configuration is to have the 128 hooked up to the 1702, with the 40 column split/composite & audio plugged into the back and the monochrome 80 columns in the front. The quality of video using a proper (split composite) video cable in the back of the 1702 is excellent, I highly recommend it! > The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power > supply? No. Unless you like chipping away Epoxy resin. > I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It > looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & > New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your > Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some > documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, > so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is > why I switched to computers). > Then there is the Amiga 500. About a month ago, I'd picked up a copy of > "Bards Tale" for the Amiga, so I know it works. Problem is I don't have a > copy of the two floppies that came with the computer originally (also got > the manual for this at Powells). I think I've got the Kickstart 1.2 ROMs > (it has a 1.2 on the screen when asking for the Workbench disk). That is Kickstart 1.2 allright. Kickstart 1.3 or later would be better because they have hard drive autoboot coding and 2.0+ is more compatible with recent Amiga software. I have the 1.2 Workbench and Extras Disk around here somewhere... :) > Where can > I get the disks? I don't suppose it's like the Apple IIgs software that > you can now download. The hard part would be getting it on the right format of floppy... > The second Amiga question would be, is it possible to hook up Apple IIgs, > or Macintosh 3 1/2" external floppy drive with a Amiga? I somehow doubt > it, but... Yes and no... Yes, there are plans for hooking up Macintosh 3.5" floppy drives to the Amiga, BUT, they are used only for the Macintosh Emulators for the Amiga (BTW the Amiga 500 can run a Mac Plus Emulator at just about speed.) > Thanks, > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | >-- Recap, I have the Amiga Disks and also have a split-composite cable to hook the 128 to the 1701 (for the best 40 column output). -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jul 14 21:25:51 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <04321854002777@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199707150625.CAA19709@mail.cgocable.net> TJPlajer, Is this name you would preferred to called by?... :) Whew, not meant to be long! :-(!) Or consider as a mini tutor in shallow depth? Ok, that kind of heat you have is bad for any hard drives health so we are too! Number one: bearing will wear out rapidly by hotter lube rapid breakdown. There's lot of forces on those little steel balls at 3600rpm and up. The new Cheeth series are being spun 10,000 rpm. Whew. Number two: heads/platters stickum is more likely. Number three: no longer properly aligned with both data/sector ID...more problems by thermal expansion results in data loss/ read/write errors. Occsionally blow dust ST225's series out and related that uses similar design that allow airflow through the drive and board with air hose when bezel is off. Other way to clean dust in there is bit risky becasue of that reddish flex data cable for heads is diffcult to work /w and tears easily when board/3 screws are removed. Get them installed visibly with own bezel that has air grilles. The idea is you WANT the circuit board and that two motors per drive cooled and whole drive as well instead of allowing heat to migrate though the pack. Easier on bearing lives by mounting ST225 right side up this way in a pc tower or suitable desktop case so you can see the bezels. Perferably keep case covers closed up with two or three fans blowing out back. All hd's like to be handled and mounted gently to finger tight with screwdriver on very short 3 screws, any bumps or bangs does bad business to both bearings and dings the platters by heads, that's true. Opened them up and saw hard-to-see 4 pits in retangular pattern matching size of head corners caused by simple act of screwdriver slip or 1inch drop/jars. But note, smacking the stuck drives in rotation plane with bare hands to unstick is ok. Sometimes and not seen the problem because it is minor but in long run no. Ideally, low level formatted in its final position because mounting hardware does warps the drive, yes it's true! And do it again bi-yearly. Yes, a pain but best way to assure reliable data. This process is a must with any stepper type drives but those that uses voice coil does not require this fussy work, once formatted depending on type of drive technolgoy, it's good for ever. Those newer 3.5 ones does not cares how it is positioned but they love being cooler so make sure airflow is there across them. And they do not need the LLF in IDE/SCSI 3.5" and smaller drives because it's already embedded at factory. Dusting is limited to outside casing and logic board only because the air flow is not possible between them. Cooling them all around through length-wise if mounted with platter pack up. Reasons to be so reglious about cooling and such... Lot of stickums caused by many things: Drives was allowed to run hot too long that coating softens up that protects the magnetic material that assists the lube process between head and platters during rest/spin up/down. Gets softer and more smoother that it gets simply stuck as heads gets worn smoother. Happens to many hds that was power cycled too often like 5 to 6 times a day even once day if you want hds to really last then I have few tips: Keep them happy by cooling them, handling gently/screws tightened properly and asolutely no too long screws ever, those regular pc screw is too long! Lots of hds were ruined by this and I have lots of hds to show this damges. And keep power cycles to a minium when possible. Remember the infamous stuck drives in Mac SE and mac classics? I think Mac blamed on Quantum and pulled at it for freebie recall for lube problem where I see this way: overheating and running upside down, lots of power cycles. Side note: those ST225's uses aluminum platters physically coated with mixture of magetic iron rust powder (opaqe orange colored) and epoxy which gives greenish tinge. Then spun them to even up the mixture and polished then lubing/protective coatings are applied. Then they're graded for quality based on defects and density. No longer (?) done now, all drives uses spluttered or plated platters for its greater density and harder surface. They looked transpantent (sp?) and reddish, shades of grey or clear. IBM just got past the 1gb per inch sq recently. Jason D. > > > Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 NEC > 420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 months > continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these drives, > it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they > continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry an egg > on it! :) > From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 15 01:51:12 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > games. Anyway, near as I can remember, you can use just the standard VCR > to TV cable (forget the techie name for it) to attach it to the TV. Did > your come with a special box that attaches between the VCR and the TV. Not The jack on the unit is a 1/8" phono jack. I assumed there was probably some module that connected between it and the VCR. I'm assuming this requires some special cable. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 02:38:21 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <07382120103214@michianatoday.com> Opps, My name is TJ Plajer, and recently reinstalled the mailer and forgot to add a space for some reason..... I did follow your tips, and the drives are in a XT case and there are no bezels for the drives. there is good air flow, just they seem to run this hot. I never ran these drives before and have no idea how hot they should be. as for power cycling, they get NONE. this system has been running for 2 months continous, without any powerdowns since they were installed, so for 2 months now, the thermal stability has (hopefully) stayed the same. thanx From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 15 09:05:06 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706158689.AA868982856@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least > could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no > manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen > during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number: "09" and I'm > assuming that this is a hardware failure code. As promised, I have hunted through my various IBM System/23 (Datamaster) manuals, and found the meanings of the POD (Power-on Diagnostics) error codes. Here is a summary: FF} 00} CPU Failure (!) 01} 02 Failure of first ROS module (Read Only Storage module, i.e. ROM chip) 03 Reserved. If this is highlighted, panic. 04 Failure in bottom 16k of storage, or of storage controller 05 CRT (presumably actually monitor) or DMA failure 06} CRT interface 07} 08 Page registers 09-} ROS failure. There follows a little diagram to tell you which chip 19 } to replace. Yes, the diagram in the manual is made of text, too. ** TOP VIEW OF PLANAR SEEN FROM THE REAR ** _______________________________________________ | ====== ====== <-- NOT FOUND ON | | | 10 | | 11 | <-- SOME EARLY | | =3=40= =3=60= <-- MACHINES | | | | ====== ====== | | | 19 | | 0D | | | =7=60= =1=60= | | *********************** | | =PATCH= ====== * PHYSICAL LOCATION * | | | 18 | | 0C | * OF ROS MODULES * | | =7=40== =1=40= * FOR EACH ERROR CODE * | | *********************** | | ====== ====== | | | 17 | | 0B | -KEY- | | =6=60= =0=60= ====== | | | XX | | | ====== ====== =Y=ZZ= | | | 16 | | 0A | XX=POD ERROR CODE | | =6=40= =0=40= Y=ROS PAGE VALUE | | ZZ=HIGH ORDER BYTE OF | | ====== ====== FIRST ADDRESS IN | | | 15 | | 09 | ROS MODULE. | | =5=60= =0=20= | | ---(CABLE)-------------- | | ====== ====== | ====== | | | | 14 | | 02 | | | 09 | CO-PLANAR | | | =5=40= =0=00= | =0=20= BOARD. | | | | (FOUND ON | | | ====== | ====== SOME EARLY | | | | 13 | | | 10 | MACHINES.) | | | =4=60= | =3=40= | | | | | | | ====== | ====== | | | | 12 | | | 11 | | | | =4=40= | =3=60= | | | ------------------------ | ----------------------------------------------- 1A-} ROS failure on feature card 26 } 27 ROS failure on 2nd printer card 28} ROS failure on feature card 29} 2A-} RAM failure. Table (which I shan't include) of how codes 30 } relate to different sizes of machine. 31 RAM page access failure 32 DMA page register failure 33 Interrupt controller failure 34 Timer interrupt failure 35 Keyboard error. If flashing, keyboard controller. If not flashing, you pressed a key at the wrong moment :-) 36 Printer failure 37 Printer not switched on 38 Diskette attachment failure 39 24 volt rail not reading 24 volts 3A-} belong to add-ons not to the system. I didn't bring the FE } relevant manual pages. General rules for interpretation: Flashing inverse video = fatal error. Non-flashing inverse video = error. Press the Error-reset key and let the machine finish booting. Then run the diagnostics dikette, I suppose. To summarise, it appears you have a dud ROM chip. I imagine the solution is to copy a ROM chip from another Datamaster. If necessary, I can arrange to copy mine, but I don't know off-hand what sort of chips they are. I would also suggest that, unless you too are in England, logistics of getting the chip to you might be hard... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Das Feuer brennt, das Feuer nennt die Luft sein Schwesterelement - und frisst sie doch (samt dem Ozon)! Das ist die Liebe, lieber Sohn. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 06:46:05 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707150341.AA22194@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151146.AA02532@interlock.ans.net> > there is a reason... PDP-8s were the most prolific and the production > nubers were in teh low tens of thousands and many still serve. I suppose the time to grab them was the early 1980s (that is when I grabbed my two machines, but not from scrapyards). > The 18bit > stuff were few to start with and hard as hell to expand so they faded > away. I still lust for a PDP-15 (I saw one at the Smithsonian Institution, as some sort of fingerprint anaylzer display. I do not think it is functional). I know one will show up some time, either in a junkyard, barn, basement, etc. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rector at christcom.net Tue Jul 15 09:52:28 1997 From: rector at christcom.net (Dan Rector) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Classic Video Games References: <199707120243.VAA18585@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <33CB8EAB.3293@christcom.net> thedm wrote: > > Sounds like Mattel Electronic Football. ----------------------- I remember this as being the first one to make it big. I think the other manufacturers are knock-offs (coleco, RS, etc.). There were actually two 'versions' made. The original one is white and is called 'Mattel Electronic Football'. The name was changed later to 'Mattel Electronic Football I' because Mattel added a second game 'Mattel Electronic Football II'. Football II has a green case and has 2 players on offense, a QB and a WR. It allows you to pass. I have both of these. I also have 'Mattel Electronic Basketball II' (orange color). (Again an improvement over BBI in that you have a partner and can do 3pt shots). I also remember seeing advertisements for other Mattel games such as hockey, soccer, and a type of car racing game. I might still have the flyer in the original boxes. Dan From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jul 15 08:53:58 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <9707142232.AA12641@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <691959A6883@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 04:31:43 pm Message-ID: <9DE246204CC@ifrsys.com> Tim Shoppa Wrote: > > I've never been to Space Age Metals, but from your description it > sounds just like Apex (in the San Fernando Valley...) My problem > with Apex is that the good stuff was always buried under tons > (literally) of scrap metal. > I've been there! The only place in town where you can get NIXIE tubes at bargain prices (truly a must-have for the classic computing conneseur)! But that place can break your heart too. The stuff inside their warehouse is mostly the test equipment, powersupplies, components and stuff like that. On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). Jeff From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 08:34:24 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707151334.AA13756@world.std.com> ->X-Sender: cerebral@michianatoday.com ->Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 ->420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 mo ->continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these dri ->it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they ->continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry a First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are faster!) and their reliability is at best ok. FYI: st225s live far longer if they are cooled. If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough air past them, seriously! Also if they are in the smae box as all the other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. Allison From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 08:47:26 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? Message-ID: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. Allison From groberts at mitre.org Tue Jul 15 08:43:43 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Stan Veit's book In-Reply-To: <33C5F6AD.50CE@Brighton-UK.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970715094343.007f9e70@mail90> nice review enrico. in case any of you missed this the subject is Stan Veit's book on the History of Peronal Computers (see http://www.pc-history.org/) i ordered my copy from Amazon books, see: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1566640237/6862-4279715-208683 (placed the order Friday morning; the book was in my mailbox yesterday). last night i got about 1/3 of the way through this 300 page book. lots of good history there that would be of interest to many in this group, including discussion of some of the more obscure contenders (e.g. "Video Brain"). thanks for the pointer. - glenn At 09:02 AM 7/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >If you like the History of Personal Computers you might like to read my >review of the Stan Veit book I just received from him. > >You will find it at: > > > >I know that the book has been published in 1993 but some of you (like >me) might not have been aware of it till now. Stan has seen all the >personal computer revolution from the inside as he opened the second >computer store in the USA and the first on the East Coast (New York). >Please forgive my spelling mistakes.... > >Thanks > >enrico >-- >================================================================ >Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. >tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile >website >================================================================ >visit Brighton: > > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 15 08:58:27 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: IEEE 488 Message-ID: <199707150958_MC2-1AD8-8A35@compuserve.com> Message from: Uncle Roger >Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Commodore PET's used IEEE-488 for disk drives, as well as lab stuff. I'm pretty sure I've got an IEEE-488 interface for the VIC-20 around somewhere. < Yep. Commodore used it on the full PET/CBM line for disk drives, printers, and whatever else you wanted to attach. That was one reason PETs were fairly popular in labs in those days-- easy to plug in test equipment. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 15 08:58:30 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: C16 Message-ID: <199707150958_MC2-1AD8-8A37@compuserve.com> Message text written by Sam: >I also finally found a C16 but it has a broken key in the upper row :( These things apparently aren't too common in these parts as this is the first one I've ever seen.< If the unit powers up, you're ahead of the game. The video chip, called the TED, is weak in those units, and probably 1 our of every two you'll find has a bad TED chip. By the way, the same TED is in the Plus/4, so if need by the chip can be swapped from unit to the other. All those C16s with bad TED chips means there are more than a few non-working units out there that could be a part donor for your keyboard. If fact, if you can't search around and find, drop me a note and I'm sure I can. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 15 08:58:34 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <199707150958_MC2-1AD8-8A39@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >The C=128 does not need any kind of bootfloppy, it will start up in C=128 mode. if you type GO64, it reverts to a C=64 kernal.< You can also hold down the Commodore key (looks like "C=" in the lower lefthand corner) while you turn it on, and it will come up in 64 mode. > the 128 has RF output accessable from the RCA jack, a 5 pin DIN video connector that provides composite, or seperated video plus sound.< The 128 has an 8-pin DIN connector, as do the later 64s. A 5-pin cable will work, but for the best possible separated composite picture, an 8-pin cable will do better. >also there is a RGB 9 pin DSUB connector so you can use ANY CGA monitor for 80 col. for the 1702, you need a video cable(looks like you have this), and use the separated mode for sharper graphics.< The 1702 is composite only. Later Commodore monitors, like the 1902, were composite/RGB switchable. However, pin 7 of the 9-pin 128 video connector puts out a monochrome composite signal, which (with your own hacked cable) allows you to view the 128's 80-column signal (normally viewable only with an RGB monitor) on a composite monitor like the 1702. >Nope. unless you want to run CPM< Or GEOS, which is kinda like Windows. Some of the more advanced Commodore software (like the fax program) runs under GEOS. >>The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. << >if it is potted, NOPE. some are unpotted and can be fixed.< The 64 power supply isn't going to do him much good on a 128; the power supplies have different connectors, and the 64 supplies aren't as strong as the 128 supplies. As to potted supplies, I have fixed one or two; some have fuses up close to the top of the gunk, and it is possible to scrape away enough of the gunk on each end to bypass the fuse if that is the problem. But as to whether it is worth the effort, I'd agree-- usually it isn't. I'm not sure what they pot it with, but starships could use it for deflector shields! Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 08:59:24 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151359.AA09485@interlock.ans.net> > ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer > ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out > ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). > > Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home > wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally > water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. I would remove anything high-voltage (front end of the power supply) and BAKE them for quite some time (a day is nice). Water has a way of getting into windings and comprimising the insulation (remember, in a transformer the insulation is _thin_ - often paper and painted on varnish). William Donzelli william@ans.net From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jul 15 09:12:16 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707150233.AA14422@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > I have seen many gems from DEC, mostly mid-1970s PDP-11s and early VAXen. > I have yet to see any 12, 18, or 36 bit stuff from them, however. The old > IBMs never show up - most coming out now are 3081 and 3090 machines > (there is hope, as I heard a 360 was decommisioned in 1995!). I have also > seen early SGI equipment, but not much early Sun (I do not know why). In my experience, Sun offers much more generous trade-in allowances than SGI (at least in the educational market). For this reason, I'd imagine that a large percentage of old Sun systems are sent back to California for scrapping or dismantled in a manner that ensures that they will not be traded in again. OTOH, I know of an SGI 4D/380 VGX that recently met the scrappers (alas, before I could attempt a rescue) because of red tape and the similarity of resale, scrap, and trade-in values. > If you are not into minis and workstations, do not bother going. You will > not find Commodores, Ataris, old Apples, etc. That's what I was expecting. Workstations are (obviously) much harder to find than micros in the thrifts and swap meets around here, and are therefore my primary junkyard scrounging goal. My single PDP-11 does, however, look kind of lonely... Thanks for the great information! I might give a few of these places a call to see what their policies are. I'm expecting to be disappointed, but you never know. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 09:16:35 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net> > > I have also > > seen early SGI equipment, but not much early Sun (I do not know why). > > In my experience, Sun offers much more generous trade-in allowances than > SGI (at least in the educational market). For this reason, I'd imagine > that a large percentage of old Sun systems are sent back to California for > scrapping or dismantled in a manner that ensures that they will not be > traded in again. OTOH, I know of an SGI 4D/380 VGX that recently met the > scrappers (alas, before I could attempt a rescue) because of red tape and > the similarity of resale, scrap, and trade-in values. By older Sun, I mean Sun-2. The stuff is still around, but not in huge gobs like the Sun-3s. I would have expected SGI Iris (pre-4D, that is) to be rare, as the company was still very small then. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Tue Jul 15 09:28:56 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net>; from William Donzelli on Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 10:16:35AM -0400 References: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <19970715092856.31262@beret.cs.utexas.edu> I remember back in '97 when William Donzelli wrote: > By older Sun, I mean Sun-2. The stuff is still around, but not in huge > gobs like the Sun-3s. I would have expected SGI Iris (pre-4D, that is) to > be rare, as the company was still very small then. Do you know of a good supplier for Sun-3 parts? I have most (chassis, SMD/SCSI/tape, memory) from a Sun 3/280 which I'd really like to get running. All I need is a power supply and the actual CPU. m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 09:44:32 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <19970715092856.31262@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <199707151444.AB12753@interlock.ans.net> > Do you know of a good supplier for Sun-3 parts? I have most (chassis, > SMD/SCSI/tape, memory) from a Sun 3/280 which I'd really like to get > running. All I need is a power supply and the actual CPU. Where did the supply go? It should be built into the chassis. It seems that the government has been dumping quit a few Sun-3/280s in 6 foot racks (with two 14" disks and a 1/2" tape). I can keep a look out for one for parts. At least some were upgraded to 4/280s - you will have to check the CPU if you find one. As far as SPARCs go, it is slow. The annoying thing about the 4/2xx CPUs is they require a goofy, very high res Sun specific mono screen. William Donzelli william@ans.net From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Tue Jul 15 09:50:23 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707151444.AB12753@interlock.ans.net>; from William Donzelli on Tue, Jul 15, 1997 at 10:44:32AM -0400 References: <19970715092856.31262@beret.cs.utexas.edu> <199707151444.AB12753@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <19970715095023.23646@beret.cs.utexas.edu> I remember back in '97 when William Donzelli wrote: > > Do you know of a good supplier for Sun-3 parts? I have most (chassis, > > SMD/SCSI/tape, memory) from a Sun 3/280 which I'd really like to get > > running. All I need is a power supply and the actual CPU. > > Where did the supply go? It should be built into the chassis. I found this one on a loading dock--someone has scrapped it partially. One of the 8M memory board I have is missing 4 large chips.. I presume these had something to do with the ECC.. I can't remember the part off the top of my head, but I do have another baord like it. I HATE WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT! I can't imagine someone actually could use those chips (but they had a pretty gold top and looked important I imagine..) (takes deep breath) m@ -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 09:52:53 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? Message-ID: <199707151452.AA22465@world.std.com> <> wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally <> water is not that damaging. Just don't power them wet. < Message-ID: <199707151502.AA14063@interlock.ans.net> > But then again I've cleaned boards in the dishwasher! Works great too. A friend of mine threw his entire Atari 800 in the dishwasher, after spilling orange juice in it. It worked. > A good temp to bake at is just under 200f, it's slow but works and most > plastics and semis are ok at this temp! Do monitor it though. A simple bulb in a garbage can works well. As long as the baked thing is just about too hot to touch, all is well. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 10:07:38 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <19970715095023.23646@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Message-ID: <199707151507.AA14432@interlock.ans.net> > I found this one on a loading dock--someone has scrapped it partially. @#$@#%! > One of the 8M memory board I have is missing 4 large chips.. I presume > these had something to do with the ECC.. I can't remember the part off > the top of my head, but I do have another baord like it. Yes, and I do not think they are Sun specific - but do not quote me on that. I suppose one could cheat and force what would have been the error lines inactive on the board. They will still be bastards to find. > I HATE WHEN PEOPLE DO THAT! I can't imagine someone actually could > use those chips (but they had a pretty gold top and looked important > I imagine..) Easy money to a scrapper. William Donzelli william@ans.net From rcini at msn.com Tue Jul 15 11:41:04 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: Altair Construction Manual Message-ID: Glenn: Thanks for the encouragement. It seems that at one time, one of us did try to contact TA to no avail. Should we try again?? I'd need to get the contact info from the gent that tried it the first time, and I'll give it a second go-around. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ---------- From: Glenn Roberts Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 10:23 AM To: Richard A. Cini, Jr. Cc: bcw@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Altair Construction Manual outstanding! i continue to applaud your efforts. i would think that all we need to proceed is a trail of evidence showing a "reasonable effort" to receive permission in this area. this can be a precedent-setting effort for publication of all kinds of useful historical information that might otherwise be lost forever. thanks again for blazing the trail! - glenn At 02:04 AM 7/13/97 UT, you wrote: >To all Altair fans... > > Well, my more-than-kind individual has provided me with the first of three >installments of the original Altair construction manual. He scanned all 102 >pages of the doc and made it into a PDF document -- almost 7mb in size. He is >also providing me with manuals for "the 88-4K, 88-ACR, and other stuff." I'm >not too familiar with all of the available options since the Altair was really >before my time, but it looks like the 4k memory board and other stuff. > > I'm not going to U/L the docs yet, first for size reasons, and second, until >we determine if we should try to contact Triumph-Adler... > >On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Jim Willing wrote: >>>So, it can be assumed that TA [Triumph-Adler of Germany] now >>owns all of >the rights to things MITS/Altair. I've tried to contact them >>on occasion on >related matters and have gotten no response of any >>kind to date. > >Anybody have any thoughts? >------------------------ >Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCPS Windows 95/Networking > > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jul 15 11:46:13 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: DEC machine? Message-ID: <33CBA955.77B5@xlisper.mv.com> Does anyone know what the following Digital part numbers refer to? PC500 RCD31 The PC500 seems to be a display with a 5.25 inch floppy drive and some electronics. It is mounted on top of the RCD31 unit which is in a pizza box style case. Is this some sort of PC clone or maybe a DecMate? -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 15 08:59:31 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970715095931.006c7150@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 02:30 AM 7/15/97 +0000, you wrote: > >Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it >nearly complete, which is rare. Only missing the power supply (common >9V) and the VCR cable. This is a game that you hook to your VCR. It has >a light gun and some sort of red either sensor or light (don't know >yet). It came with a fighter combat VCR tape that you play in the VCR >and I assume you use the gun to shoot at stuff on the screen. I'm sure >someone else knows more about it than me. I haven't hooked it up yet. >But I won't be able to do anything with it until I get the VCR cable. >Anyone know how to rig one up? I had one a long time ago, and I don't remember having to hook a cable to the VCR. I think the red thingy acts as both a score light and a sensor. It should have a suction cup and IIRC just stick it to the top right corner of the TV screen. The fighter pilot tape was the pack-in with the system. There was only about 6 tapes total made. I see these things quite often though, in fact I saw one several days ago. I believe it came out in '86. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 07:59:38 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151334.AA13756@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151659.MAA08957@mail.cgocable.net> Allison, I gently disagree with this assertion that ST251 series is good than ST225 series. I got too many dead ST251 series compared to ST225's due to weaker structral design, pushed design by driving steppers too hard byond 40ms average and not as rugged as ST225's. I noticed the relationship between higher stepping rate and terrible high failure rate on many hard drives such as ST251's, Miniscribes and early 40meg western digital drives compared to very slow stepping rate on most drives did last long time byond its goal set by designers. If one wants faster seeking time, go voice coil! I am dreaming wishing that ST251 drive was fitted with voice coil instead of stepper and better motor design...sigh. Those ST225, ST250 are really best consumer's drives and ST251 series might be a mistake at cutting corners well as ST277, ST296 are same design. I wished that segate designed ST251 case more rugged and used internal spindle motor with bearings on outside and one screw on top of cover to stablize the motor from top. Then this ST251's would be possible to be expanded to 100 or 120 size reliably. Whole problem was that design of this ST251 spindle motor is ill-designed to begin with in my opinion: Trying to fit all the coils and one bearing INSIDE that spindle results in weak axle that gets bent easily due to this design and the bearings failure rate on this one is high too. Recently I pulled this ST225 out of dumpter and fixed up the XT with this hd and LLF'ed it. Gave whole thing to poor guy to use vax at college. Still works. I tore down all kinds of drives from old and 3 years old types for post-failure analysis which gave pretty good info for me. > ->X-Sender: cerebral@michianatoday.com Snip! > First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are Snip! Tales of positive things about cooling... > If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough > air past them, seriously! Actually, all drives old and new benefits from cooling and boards likes the flowing cooling air. > Also if they are in the smae box as all the > other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their > life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air > conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. We have no choice as many does not have AC so they ran in warm air but if you are careful, enough fans to make hurriance out of it and put a fan or two on monitor as well. My 17" needs two otherwise the HOT transistor will pop again. ARRGgghhh. > Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 15 12:07:09 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707151707.MAA02235@challenge.sunflower.com> IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 7:59 AM > > Allison, > > I gently disagree with this assertion that ST251 series is good than > ST225 series. I got too many dead ST251 series compared to ST225's > due to weaker structral design, pushed design by driving steppers too > hard byond 40ms average and not as rugged as ST225's. > I noticed the relationship between higher stepping rate and > terrible high failure rate on many hard drives such as ST251's, > Miniscribes and early 40meg western digital drives compared to > very slow stepping rate on most drives did last long time byond its > goal set by designers. If one wants faster seeking time, go voice > coil! I am dreaming wishing that ST251 drive was fitted with voice > coil instead of stepper and better motor design...sigh. > > Those ST225, ST250 are really best consumer's drives and ST251 series > might be a mistake at cutting corners well as ST277, ST296 are same > design. > > I wished that segate designed ST251 case > more rugged and used internal spindle motor with bearings on outside > and one screw on top of cover to stablize the motor from top. Then > this ST251's would be possible to be expanded to 100 or 120 size > reliably. Whole problem was that design of this ST251 spindle motor > is ill-designed to begin with in my opinion: Trying to fit all the > coils and one bearing INSIDE that spindle results in weak axle that > gets bent easily due to this design and the bearings failure rate on > this one is high too. > > Recently I pulled this ST225 out of dumpter and fixed > up the XT with this hd and LLF'ed it. Gave whole thing to poor guy > to use vax at college. Still works. > > I tore down all kinds of drives from old and 3 years old types for > post-failure analysis which gave pretty good info for me. > > > ->X-Sender: cerebral@michianatoday.com > Snip! > > > First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are > Snip! Tales of positive things about cooling... > > If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough > > air past them, seriously! > Actually, all drives old and new benefits from cooling and boards > likes the flowing cooling air. > > > Also if they are in the smae box as all the > > other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their > > life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air > > conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. > We have no choice as many does not have AC so they ran in warm air > but if you are careful, enough fans to make hurriance out of it and > put a fan or two on monitor as well. My 17" needs two otherwise the > HOT transistor will pop again. ARRGgghhh. > > > Allison > From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jul 15 12:14:10 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: DEC machine? Message-ID: <01IL9I01D102BCB22Y@cc.usu.edu> > The PC500 seems to be a display with a 5.25 inch floppy drive and some > electronics. It is mounted on top of the RCD31 unit which is in a pizza > box style case. Is this some sort of PC clone or maybe a DecMate? No, I suspect it's a VAXmate. The VAXmate is a 286 PC clone with some special DECness (Ethernet, included software to do DECnet). Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu PS: Rumor has it that the VAXstation 2000 folks were really pissed that the name 'VAXmate' was already taken... From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 08:18:16 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <07382120103214@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199707151718.NAA11117@mail.cgocable.net> Hi TJ Plajer! > Opps, My name is TJ Plajer, and recently reinstalled the mailer and forgot > to add a space for some reason..... hahah... better learn than nothing! :) > > I did follow your tips, and the drives are in a XT case and there are no > bezels for the drives. You are supposed to cover any empty drive space with anything like cardboard but do not block the area of hds... Here's your cooling problem...XT case is poorly made because this power supply fan is simply too small try first: under the width of drive cage, seal the grille holes on metal sheet and on case cover on right side, seal that underside holes, all with a good tape. On that XT PSU, how much airflow blowing out back, weak? Look for a replacement fan that does better than this el cheapo fans. Try AT type case if you can, they has bigger, powerful fan. XT case design especially in cooling department is bit goofy, blamed by IBM for this ill. :) > there is good air flow, just they seem to run this > hot. More power to air flow is needed, see the tips.. > I never ran these drives before and have no idea how hot they should > be. as for power cycling, they get NONE. this system has been running for 2 > months continous, without any powerdowns since they were installed, so for 2 > months now, the thermal stability has (hopefully) stayed the same. > thanx Hey, no problem! Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 08:34:13 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151707.MAA02235@challenge.sunflower.com> Message-ID: <199707151734.NAA12960@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:07:09 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: "Bill Girnius" > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > X-To: > IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over > 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up > selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. Had to ask! Are you kidding? :) None 5.25" hds came out til after '82 when lot of hds bigger than 8" was king. !!!! 20 yr old ST4096? Impossible! More like 8 or 9 years. Seagate started on this design after 1986. Is this one of yours that only have one board on bottom with only platter cover painted black? That is last generation of this design which is finally reliable. Earlier ones had teething problem of all kinds, no kidding. All the way back to early first linear voice coil of ST4025 between 1985 through '88. I pick them up all the time are almost always dead due to bearing failures. These drives are best left running horizontal right side up. Jason D. From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jul 15 12:36:04 1997 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:19 2005 Subject: DEC machine? References: <01IL9I01D102BCB22Y@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33CBB504.1EE5@xlisper.mv.com> Roger Ivie wrote: > > > The PC500 seems to be a display with a 5.25 inch floppy drive and some > > electronics. It is mounted on top of the RCD31 unit which is in a pizza > > box style case. Is this some sort of PC clone or maybe a DecMate? > > No, I suspect it's a VAXmate. The VAXmate is a 286 PC clone with some > special DECness (Ethernet, included software to do DECnet). > Hmm... That doesn't sound very interesting. I guess I'll just leave it at the dump. Thanks for the info. David -- David Betz dbetz@xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz@aol.com (603) 472-2389 From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 15 12:39:09 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707151735.MAA03237@challenge.sunflower.com> Typo was intended to be 10, but it was still undauntingly reliable. ---------- > From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 8:34 AM > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:07:09 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > > From: "Bill Girnius" > > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > > Subject: Re: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers > > X-To: > > > IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over > > 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up > > selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. > > Had to ask! Are you kidding? :) None 5.25" hds came out til after > '82 when lot of hds bigger than 8" was king. !!!! 20 yr old > ST4096? Impossible! More like 8 or 9 years. > > Seagate started on this design after 1986. Is this one of yours > that only have one board on bottom with only platter cover painted > black? That is last generation of this design which is finally > reliable. Earlier ones had teething problem of all kinds, no > kidding. All the way back to early first linear voice coil of ST4025 > between 1985 through '88. I pick them up all the time are almost > always dead due to bearing failures. These drives are best left > running horizontal right side up. > > Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 15 12:35:44 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: ActionMax In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970715095931.006c7150@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, James Carter wrote: > >Picked up an ActionMax system from the thrift store today. I got it > > I had one a long time ago, and I don't remember having to hook a cable to > the VCR. I think the red thingy acts as both a score light and a sensor. It > should have a suction cup and IIRC just stick it to the top right corner of > the TV screen. Yep, it has a suction cup, so now I know where to put that. Each jack has a little icon above it showing what goes into that jack. There is a gun icon, a flasher/sensor icon, a headphone icon and a little icon that looks like a VCR. I would think it gets perhaps some special synchronization information recorded on the tape that tells the unit when you actually made a hit. Otherwise I can't think of how the unit actually knows you hit anything. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 15 14:05:57 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151707.MAA02235@challenge.sunflower.com> from "Bill Girnius" at Jul 15, 97 12:07:09 pm Message-ID: <9707151805.AA14520@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970715/2ef88534/attachment-0001.ksh From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Tue Jul 15 13:53:55 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> Message-ID: Allison wrote: > > ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer > ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out > ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). > > Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home > wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally > water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. > > Allison > > Yeah, but when those chip leads get corroded and all the aluminum parts have this white, fluffy oxide all over them, and when you see trails of oxide where the foil pattern *USED* to be, it's time to hang it up . . . Jeff From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 09:41:04 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: References: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707151840.OAA20617@mail.cgocable.net> > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:53:55 -0600 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Allison wrote: > > > > ->On the OUTSIDE, in their scrap yard, is where most of the computer > > ->stuff ends up. I once found a WICAT *and* an EXORCISOR II out > > ->there-- both filled with water. (Sob!). Waaaah! No! :( > > Heh, I would have used that to get them cheap. Then I'd take them home > > wash them out throughly and disassembled and dried them well. Generally > > water is not that damaging. Just done power them wet. > > > > Allison > Yeah, but when those chip leads get corroded and all the aluminum > parts have this white, fluffy oxide all over them, and when you > see trails of oxide where the foil pattern *USED* to be, it's time to > hang it up . . . > > Jeff About this, do not forget about the leaking backup batteries for static memory settings...waaaah! Green jiggles where traces used to be... Jason D. From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 13:45:40 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: DEC machine? Message-ID: <199707151845.AA16137@world.std.com> >>>jpero... Sorry if this is long but it is important to users of classic machines. ;) Hi all. Due to a major computer disaster here at work I haven't been reading list mail and probably won't for a few more days. So, I'm not ignoring anyone and if anything is really important e-mail me directly (bill@booster.u.washington.edu). And, if anyone can tell me why 11 NT servers in a single domain would crash one at a time every 4 minutes and 20 seconds until the whole network is gone - please let me know ;). Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 16:19:11 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: <2827@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > (MS-DOS machines) since about 1983 and I have yet to see one. Another > thing I've been looking for without success is an IBM Cassette recorder > for the IBM PC cassette interface. I've heard they really do exist. Now that's something I've never seen. One interesting point is that the pinout of the cassette socket on the PC (although not on the PC-jr) is the same as that on a Tandy Model 1/3/4/Coco/etc It is rumoured that IBM intended you to go down to the local Radio Shack and buy one of their recorders + cable. -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 16:21:23 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: IBM 5161?? Message-ID: <2828@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > Haven't found a IBM cassette recorder either but I did pick up an IBM > joystick (had IBM logo on it and the word "Joystick") plus it had a funky > square connector which looked like it goes to the PCjr. I've dug out the PC-jr Techref, and there's some info in it on the joystick. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 15 16:32:49 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: PC-jr PSU (again!) Message-ID: <2830@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> I dug out the PC-jr Techref (in order to look up details on the joystick), and I also looked at the PSU diagrams (page B-23 in my edition). We had a thread on this about a month ago, mainly about the external transformer unit which I don't have. Now, the input connector is a 3-pin thing. The centre pin is connected to shield ground, and then via L3 and L4 on the system board to logic ground. It's thus a DC connection to the system ground. The outside 2 pins go through a filter to the AC terminals of a bridge rectifier (CR7 - CR10) and the output of this goes (via the power switch) to a 1500uF 25V capacitor (C13). The -ve side of this capacitor is also connected to system ground. Thus, IMHO it makes no sense at all for the transformer to be centre-tapped with the tap going to pin 2 on the connector. If it was, the winding would be paritially shorted out by the diodes in the bridge rectifier, which would cause a lot of damage. Also, since C13 is only rated at 25V, the maximum input rms voltage is 25/sqrt(2) volts, which is a lot less than 34V. I therefore still believe that it's a plain 17V transformer between the 2 outer pins on the connector. Incidentally, the +12V output comes from a standard linear regulator, the +5V output from a switching regulator (Z2 is the control IC, Q2 the chopper, and L1 the switching inductor). The -12V output is supplied by a secondary winding on L1, which is then rectifier and smoothed. It's always possible that IBM used several versions of the PSU card, but the schematic in my Techref seems to agree with the one in my machine. -tony From kjaeros at u.washington.edu Tue Jul 15 15:49:48 1997 From: kjaeros at u.washington.edu (Ray Stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: antique computer blowout (fwd) Message-ID: Somebody in the Berkeley area might want to answer this call to duty.. I'd be thrilled to get the Sun 1 clone, but it'd cost several hundred dollars to ship up here. ok -r ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 15 Jul 1997 07:39:46 GMT From: Paul Leondis Newsgroups: misc.forsale.computers.workstation Subject: antique computer blowout I'm looking to get rid of some stuff, let me know what you think: I've got a huge amount of old S-100 bus stuff, almost all of it with technical manuals and software on diskette, that was working the last i knew. Most is Godbout stuff, some Morrow, some Dual, etc. Lots of 8" floppy drives and diskettes. I have most of the processor boards that were released by Godbout, including 8088, 8086, Z80, 8080, 68000, and i even have some of the National Semiconductor 32000 series cpus on S-100 cards. I have all the stuff like CP/M 68K with the associated assemblers and linkers etc. I also have a complete working [?] Sun I clone: yes, that's right, the first SUN design was public domain (did you know that?? At least that's the way i understand it...) and a company called Forward Technology made clones of that design. It has a 68K cpu running in a multibus one chassis, and i have lots of peripherals for it, including 9-track tape drive and 1/4" tape drives and disk controllers for several interfaces. I've got all the relevent software, inc. V7 unix and a mess of compilers. I have the (at the time) very high res monochrome monitors that went with the system. It's a real wrench for me to let go of this stuff, if you were in this field 10 or 15 years ago you know what i paid for some of the stuff. But i'm tired of hoarding it all. So, i will take the best offer i can get for all of the stuff. My reserve bid is $0, that is i will give it away if that is the best offer. I will probably be most moved by someone that may actually get some pleasure out of the stuff and esp. someone that would want to take the whole lot. There is a free city dump day coming up in my part of town on July 19th, so i'd like to settle the stuff by then so i can dispose of whatever is left at that time. Paul Leondis leondis@slip.net 510-649-0993 phone Berkeley, CA From s-ware at nwu.edu Tue Jul 15 16:06:16 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: <199707151416.AA10782@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > By older Sun, I mean Sun-2. The stuff is still around, but not in huge > gobs like the Sun-3s. I would have expected SGI Iris (pre-4D, that is) to > be rare, as the company was still very small then. I would also imagine that the older IRIS 2000 series workstations and the 1000 series graphics terminals are quite rare. From what I've seen, the IRIS 3000 series systems are much more common. I've seen quite a few of these available for sale or hauling, and I know of several that are still in use. It could just be that these machines are newer, but it seems that SGI had started to make some inroads into Evans & Sutherland's territory by the time that the 3000 series machines were phased out in favor of the MIPS-based boxes. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 16:52:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? References: <199707151347.AA24524@world.std.com> <199707151840.OAA20617@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33CBF11C.5E1C@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > Yeah, but when those chip leads get corroded and all the aluminum > > parts have this white, fluffy oxide all over them, and when you > > see trails of oxide where the foil pattern *USED* to be, it's time to > > hang it up . . . > > > > Jeff > About this, do not forget about the leaking backup batteries for > static memory settings...waaaah! Green jiggles where traces used to > be... I've run into the problem of leaky batterys corroding circuit boards quite a bit, mainly on arcade games and computer motherboards where the battery is soldered in place. As long as the corrosion isn't too bad, I use Muriatic Acid, i.e. 33% HCl, and add it a drop at a time to the affected area. After all the fizzing has stopped, I rinse it under the faucet with cold water, dry it, and generally everything ends up fine. If I am feeling particularly like doing the job right, after rinsing under the tap, I'll rinse it off with either DI (DeIonized) or distilled water. A couple of hours out in the sun or under a lamp completes the job. Where traces have been eaten away, it is generally not too hard to just replace the traces with wire wrap wire. Granted, it takes some time but it can be worth it. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 17:09:55 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: Message-ID: <33CBF533.3476@rain.org> I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major stumbling block is, of course, funding. But that aside, what type of things does this group think a computer museum should consist of and what should it offer? I am talking here about a physical location as opposed to an online web site. The type of things I am currently considering are: What should be on display considering: 1) space limitation 2) Mainframes, minis, micros 3) What would most attract visitors 4) What would most attract funding :) Other activities to make the museum more than just a display of computers: 1) Computer certification classes 2) Availability of documentation for those doing historical computer research 3) Newsletter 4) Information on promoting computer collecting 5) Being able to provide docs and software (subject to copyright restrictions of course) I am thinking of quite a few other things but this will do for a start. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Jul 15 17:36:21 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <01IL9TDNDJ9IA4ROGZ@cc.usu.edu> > What should be on display considering: > 1) space limitation > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros > 3) What would most attract visitors > 4) What would most attract funding :) I'm afraid number 3 and number 4 will turn you into The Boston Computer Museum. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From KFergason at aol.com Tue Jul 15 18:16:09 1997 From: KFergason at aol.com (KFergason@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <970715191555_1657404756@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-15 13:32:57 EDT, you write: << IMHO the ST-4096 FH 80 MG was the most reliable of this era. I spent over 600.00 for this drive new and used it for more than 20 years, and ended up selling it to a business for 50.00 to replace their dead st-251. >> hmm, my experience is just the opposite with this drive. I had 6 out 7 fail in less than 6 months back in 1990. The 4096 was just hideous. Kelly From rcini at msn.com Mon Jul 14 18:52:51 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I EI question Message-ID: Hello, all: I'm trying to track-down a mod that Tandy on the Expansion Interface. On one of my early EIs (SN# 000352), there was a 6-pin DIN modification, which someone at one time told me was to correct some erratic signal problems. So, I called Tandy and ordered the EI service manual, but it only applies to the "new" PCB version (units with SNs 035000 or greater). Does anyone have the schematics to the original one and can check pin functions?? Internally, the board is labelled "1700077-C", does not have the green conformal coating, and has the RAM chips right next to the power supply section. Mod 1 is on IC Z17 (LS157), pins 1 and 8 (GND) Mod 2 is on IC Z24 (LS32), pins 4 and 7 (GND) Mod 3 is on IC Z22 (LS367), pins 12 and 8 (GND) Matching the old ICs and pin numbers to the new schematics produces the following: Mod 1 is for the MMUX line, Mod 2 is for WR* and Mod 3 is for INT* Can anyone verify this? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 18:35:07 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707152344.QAA01332@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Hello there, I run a fileserver that has 2 ST-225 20 meg drives, and 1 NEC > 420 meg IDE drive, this system runs 24/7, and has been running for 2 months > continuous now. My question is what is the life expectancy of these drives, > it is often said that the ST-225 series are not reliable, however they > continue to run strong. also these things run so hot that you can fry an egg > on it! :) Where is the heat localized? The logic board gets hot around the bearing (bushing), but the case itself shouldn't get hot. I'd be worried. I deal with a *lot* of old systems, and I don't see any more dead ST-225's than others. I always keep an ST-225 around, 'cause I *know* it'll go on #2 in the ROM drive table if I can't locate the listing in the BIOS. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 18:54:13 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: <01IL9TDNDJ9IA4ROGZ@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <33CC0DA5.3DA8@rain.org> Roger Ivie wrote: > > > What should be on display considering: > > 1) space limitation > > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros > > 3) What would most attract visitors > > 4) What would most attract funding :) > > I'm afraid number 3 and number 4 will turn you into The Boston Computer > Museum. > Without 4, there is no 3, and without 3, what purpose would a museum serve :)! From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 18:25:27 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Some Commie questions Message-ID: <199707160007.RAA23897@mx2.u.washington.edu> C64 Porer supplies... I have a box full of C64 P/S's ...I sell them for $18 plus S/H, 60 day warranty. Got cables and manuals and lotsa software, too. I don't have any 128's. Anyone wanna get rid of one cheap? Trade a slightly used Panasonic HHP for one :> > >The next question would be, is it worth trying to repair a C64's power > >supply? I got two of them yesterday, both powersupplies are dead. It > >looks like the 5V line is shorted to ground. I did get a copy of the Old & > > if it is potted, NOPE. some are unpotted and can be fixed. > > >New style users manuals, and a copy of "Troubleshooting and Repairing your > >Commodore 64" yesterday (I love Powells Technical Books!) so I've got some > >documentation. It's been too many years since I worked as an Electrician, > >so my skill level is pretty low (wasn't very high to begin with, which is > >why I switched to computers). > > > > I have these manuals too and I must say that it leaves no tern left unstoned. > From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 18:50:59 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707160007.RAA08796@mx5.u.washington.edu> > What should be on display considering: > 1) space limitation > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros > 3) What would most attract visitors > 4) What would most attract funding :) Three things which have changed radically over the years.are - 01 Power (including speed) - 10 Cost - 11 Display capabilities (on affordable systems, that is) You might want to consider comparing the above parameters system-by-system. Software has become less klunky over the years. Try having an ancient word processor running so people can see, say, the number of steps required to open a file. Don't forget output technology...compare an old daisy wheel to a laser, a superannuated 9 pin to a modern 24 pin, get a thermal printer, and a thinkjet (really raunchy output, but FAST). I'm collecting historically significant micros (such as the C64 -- they're cheap, so everyone got one.) If you can get the dirt on why, for example, CBM shot themselves in the foot, that would be interesting. Why aren't Apples more common, for example? From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 15 19:10:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Keyboard for? References: <199707152344.QAA01332@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33CC1183.47DC@rain.org> I've got a keyboard labeled "Executive Peripheral Systems" copyright 1982. What makes it strange is the cartridges that plug in. This one has three cartridges that plug into the keyboard along with some corresponding overlays to identify the funtion keys. The first cartridge is labeled "Your Program" and is also labeled "BASIC & DOS." The second is "BASIC & DOS" for use with the ApplewriterII, and the third is "BASIC & DOS" for use with Visicalc. The connector looks like an RJ-11 telephone connector (with 6 connections.) Anyone know what this thing is? Thanks. From manney at nwohio.com Tue Jul 15 19:06:50 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707160118.SAA10901@mx3.u.washington.edu> > Most 225s were not fails, just retired due to small space available. FYI > you get better results if the disk is LLF'd in situ and well warmed up. That's doubly true for RLL encoded ST-506/412 drives. These drives should be LLF'd from time to time anyway. Most HD controllers have a built-in LLF routine which you can access via DEBUG. From william at ans.net Tue Jul 15 20:20:47 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <33CBF533.3476@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707160120.AA23849@interlock.ans.net> > 1) space limitation Unless one collects just the dies of microchips, the rooms will fill fast. Collectors of just about everything have proved this. > 2) Mainframes, minis, micros I suppose it would be hard to collect everything - for example, one could make a huge collection just with VT100 clones! I think it is very important that even if a museum specializes (probably the most realistic option), an objective view of history must not be lost. > 3) What would most attract visitors Not static displays! TC"M" started that way - great for us geeks, but not for the average person. Current museum thinking is for teaching the public, not saving the past. A bit of a shame, really. > 4) What would most attract funding :) Going tax-free and everything like most large museums is quite difficult. Generally a number of people are needed to form a board of directors, in order to run the corporation. Unless you REALLY plan on doing a serious job, it would be best to call it a private collection. This means that any monetary donations really are personal income with no tax advantages for either side of the transaction (generally a bad thing, as so many people view donations with an eye to write off some taxes). Currently RCS/RI is looking to incorporate _eventually_ - we would like a few more members. Now, we are simply a collective - rent gets split evenly. How is CHAC handling this? William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 15 20:45:01 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I EI question Message-ID: <199707160145.AA03497@world.std.com> At 08:49 AM 7/14/97 BST, you wrote: >> (But I always was, and always will be, a Robotron man...) >Do you mean the East German Robotron Elektronik, or is this another Robotron 2084 was a video game (put out by Williams, I think). The story was that robots had taken over and were killing off mankind. You were man's last hope as a super-ized human, you could shoot the robots and save the people. You ran around doing just that. There were various types of naughty robots and a family (mom, dad, son, daughter) that you ran over (picked up?) to save. What made Robotron different from most games was that it used 2 joysticks, one for movement and one for firing. To be any good at the game, you had to be able to work them independently of each other. Spent a lot of quarters on that game. There were other 2-joystick games, including Sinistar (mine bombs to blow up Sinistar before it's completely built) and a spiderweb game which I forget the name of. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From kyrrin at wizards.net Tue Jul 15 21:05:35 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.net (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: New surplus outlet! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970715190535.00f8aef8@mail.wizards.net> Denizens of the Bay Area, check this out! HMR Recycling (www.hmr-usa.com), when I had the opportunity to visit, reminded me greatly of one of the Surplus Warehouses of Olde. Reasonable prices, huge assortment to choose from, and 100,000 sq. feet of warehouse to peruse! Example: Nearly new-looking Tektronix 7844 dual-beam O-scope, with a pair each of 7B92A timebase and 7A26 vertical plugins, with cart: $400. Other examples: Emulex P3000 print server, $20. DEC RRD42 SCSI CD-ROM drive, $20. Exabyte EXB-8200 2.3 gig 8mm tape drive, $125. One of my finds there was a pair of DEC storage expansion cabinets at $45 each (bargained down from $50 since I bought both of them). They each contained a pair of DEC RZ57 drives (made by Micropolis, 1.0 gigs each, all SCSI). Heck of a deal! They get new stuff in literally every day. I went there twice on different days, and found some neat deals both times. 08:00-16:30, Monday-Friday only, minimum purchase $20.00, and you need to sign the visitor log and wear a visitor badge while looking around. Other than that, enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin@wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..." From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 15 22:36:34 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <199707160007.RAA08796@mx5.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: >> What should be on display considering: >> 1) space limitation >> 2) Mainframes, minis, micros >> 3) What would most attract visitors >> 4) What would most attract funding :) 5- Location, Location, Location!!! Personally I'd say the prime locations would be the Silicon Valley, and the Silicon Forest. 3&4 sound rough, I'd definitly check one out if it was near me, but I'm crazy :^) > >Three things which have changed radically over the years.are >- 01 Power (including speed) >- 10 Cost How about how peoples perceptions of cost has changed? In the early to mid-80's a Commodore 64 was considered expensive by most. Now everyone seems to be going out and spending about 5 to 10 times that much on system >Software has become less klunky over the years. Try having an ancient word >processor running so people can see, say, the number of steps required to >open a file. Now there is a cool idea! Maybe trace the history of a WP like Word Perfect, of course if you weren't careful this could take up a museum by itself :^) >Don't forget output technology...compare an old daisy wheel to a laser, a >superannuated 9 pin to a modern 24 pin, get a thermal printer, and a >thinkjet (really raunchy output, but FAST). And input tech, starting with wired boards up to..... >CBM shot themselves in the foot, that would be interesting. Why aren't >Apples more common, for example? Price, when they were tops, the Apple was great, but two expensive. Then they were old tech, and still fairly spendy. Don't get me wrong I love my Apples, but the Price/Performace ratio was wrong for the times I think. Still the Apple II in it's various incarnations was produced for about 15 years. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 21:58:26 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <02582622104195@michianatoday.com> At 09:34 AM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: >First off why bother withg the st225s? They are slow (st251s are >faster!) and their reliability is at best ok. FYI: st225s live far I would if I had a ST-251, but I got 4 ST-225's, and 2 of them are in use, and the other 2 are spares. they are slow, but they do work nicely. I also like the sound of old hardware, the new drives you can hardly hear them run, with these, you can hear them a mile away! :) The cooling fan on this machine is as loud as the hard disks, and moves lots of warm air.. >longer if they are cooled. If the fan isn't noisy it isn't moving enough >air past them, seriously! Also if they are in the smae box as all the >other hardware they raise the other components temperature lowering their it is in an XT case, which is huge, and has one slot free for air to move.. and my room is not air condidtioned, but the house is, but the cold never travels in here! >life. Heat is not your friend, this is why computer rooms are air >conditioned an usuialy under 70 degrees F. > >Allison > > From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 22:13:44 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <03134487204253@michianatoday.com> At 01:18 PM 7/15/97 +0000, you wrote: >simply too small try first: under the width of drive cage, seal the >grille holes on metal sheet and on case cover on right side, seal >that underside holes, all with a good tape. On that XT PSU, how much >airflow blowing out back, weak? Look for a replacement fan that does >better than this el cheapo fans. Try AT type case if you can, they >has bigger, powerful fan. Ok, I checked it out, and it appears that there already is a vinyl plastic glued to the front, with a 5160 sticker on it. I also put a cardboard cover in the empty bay, and this seems to work. the PSU is actually not IBM made, it is an aftermarket brand that has a strong fan in it, stronger than what I find on NEW Yackard Hells! >XT case design especially in cooling department is bit goofy, blamed >by IBM for this ill. :) It continues to amaze me on just WHY whatever IBM made, as flawed as it is, the public jumped on it and supported it... look at winsucks 95..... >> there is good air flow, just they seem to run this >> hot. >More power to air flow is needed, see the tips.. >> I never ran these drives before and have no idea how hot they should >> be. as for power cycling, they get NONE. this system has been running for 2 >> months continous, without any powerdowns since they were installed, so for 2 >> months now, the thermal stability has (hopefully) stayed the same. >> thanx >Hey, no problem! >Jason D. > From cerebral at michianatoday.com Tue Jul 15 22:35:54 1997 From: cerebral at michianatoday.com (TJ Plajer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <03355494504339@michianatoday.com> At 02:45 PM 7/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >One last item. MAKE BACKUPS OF EVERYTHING. make duplicate backups and test >the backups for integrity. Disks fail, and the cheapest insurance is a boot >and backup package that works when you replace/repair the offending drive. > > >Allison > This is why I like the 20 and 40 meg drives, I can back up key elements of the OS and configs, and restore them easily. as for 3.5 being more reliable, they are not, as I bought a Conner CFS-850A 850 meg, and it worked nicely for a year, then one day I am greeted with this error: BOOT DISK FAILURE, SYSTEM HALTED. it suffered a head crash, it would spin up normally, and when the controller tested the head actuator upon startup, there was a time when the head would seek to a location on the disk, and GRIND to a halt. the drive never worked again... I lost 700 megs of stuff, half unreplaceable (my fault, but I have no tape drive). fortunately the drive did have a 3 year warrenty, and a replacement was shipped, a 1.2 gig seagate ST-31276A. and here is another question: Is this going to last me more than a year? If Seagate made good drives in the past, will this new one live up to this, or is this drive chock full of corner cutting? From spc at armigeron.com Tue Jul 15 22:58:47 1997 From: spc at armigeron.com (Captain Napalm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: While the cat's away... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Whitson" at Jul 15, 97 12:46:12 pm Message-ID: <199707160358.XAA25954@armigeron.com> It was thus said that the Great Bill Whitson once stated: > > And, if anyone can tell me why 11 NT servers in > a single domain would crash one at a time every > 4 minutes and 20 seconds until the whole network > is gone - please let me know ;). > Sounds like someone found the WinNuke program (or had it and found your network) and started having fun. WinNuke will Blue Screen (TM) Window NT and horribly crash Win95. Nice to know that Chairman Bill's company writes such robust software 8-) -spc (Okay, no more MS bashing from me ... ) From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 20:19:32 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <03355494504339@michianatoday.com> Message-ID: <199707160519.BAA04045@mail.cgocable.net> Allison and TJ Plajer....Hello all, and I compress two emails into one.... Snip! Strong message about backing up... Yes right... :) I am still running without a real backup as I hate tapes...still waiting for right price on writeable optical drive types. The key thing is 3.5 drives is still good and considered best thing for us if you know what one to get and avoid specific ones. I have bunch of 3.5's spinning away just fine, thanks. :) > reliable, they are not, as I bought a Conner CFS-850A 850 meg, and it worked > nicely for a year, then one day I am greeted with this error: I forgot to tell ya...Newer Conners are comfirmed as excessive duds for sure. Only older 20 to 500mb before '92 are ok but after that everything gone into dirt. Funny that people who flied out of Seagate to form COnner in '85 about and Seagate brought Conner back in, therefore Name of Conner is gone, thank god, but seagate is still making low end drives with Conner parts. :) Right now you're holding that 1.2gb drive is really Conner's design. Suggest sell it and find a real Seagate in ST5 series or their higher end or any mid to high end Quantums, WD's in WD2xxxx series not 3 or up, they're often early drives becaue it takes WD time to ease out bugs and compress more data onto more reliable 2 platter drives are WD2xxxx series. Maxtor, JTS and oddball names is still bad news IMOH. > it suffered a head crash, it would spin up normally, and when the controller Snipped of woes... sad. :) > 1.2 gig seagate ST-31276A. and here is another > question: of reliablity on this one...mixed yes/no but you're spinning russian dice. Heh... If you have compared that ST31276A case, besides the iron magnetic shield and one screw in middle, to the CP30084H they're look-alike and I have the conner drive dated '88 120mb uses same pack design. Now, about your XT case cooling topic, please cover whole right side of cover grille too. This side where the PSU red switch is and this side is dead air and not too useful. Must cover all the open slot cutouts with blanks, that does not help at all as you think. On related slot topic I did found a ps/2 30 where mouse got through the open slot and peed/pooped inside and left it dead and I cleaned motherboard up with hot water/liquid dish soap and rinsed then blow dry, came out fine and a vastly relieved owner. :)) !!!! Moral of life, plug, cover all 1/4" or larger holes!!! Hey, I AM using win95, yes it's goofy too but with top quality components and lots of fans roaring away I can leave it on 24/7 to assist me to talk on this emailing list and others things. (Asus P/I-P55T2P4 w/ P5-100, 1.5 yr old ST51080/ 3yr old Quantum LPS540, 16mb.) Jason D. From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 20:23:00 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? In-Reply-To: <33CBF11C.5E1C@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707160522.BAA04301@mail.cgocable.net> > jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > rusted trace stuff... snip! > > > Jeff Me whining about rust. :) > Muriatic Acid? Why? Is those all fuzz green things still shorts things or still giving problems even resulting mess was cleaned up with strong alcohol and checked out for shorts, I did not find any opens or shorts....? Jason D. > I've run into the problem of leaky batterys corroding circuit boards > quite a bit, mainly on arcade games and computer motherboards where the > battery is soldered in place. As long as the corrosion isn't too bad, I > use Muriatic Acid, i.e. 33% HCl, and add it a drop at a time to the > affected area. After all the fizzing has stopped, I rinse it under the > faucet with cold water, dry it, and generally everything ends up fine. > If I am feeling particularly like doing the job right, after rinsing > under the tap, I'll rinse it off with either DI (DeIonized) or distilled > water. A couple of hours out in the sun or under a lamp completes the > job. Where traces have been eaten away, it is generally not too hard to > just replace the traces with wire wrap wire. Granted, it takes some > time but it can be worth it. > > From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 15 00:10:18 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? References: Message-ID: <33CB063A.7A03@ndirect.co.uk> Sam Ismail wrote: > > Apologizes to all the non-Silicon Valley folk having to see all this > localized blather. You don't have to apologise as I, for one, really enjoy it. It give me an insight of how you live and collect. Thank you enrico ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 00:38:35 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: PAM computer, Convergent? References: <199707160522.BAA04301@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33CC5E5B.42C6@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > > > rusted trace stuff... snip! > > > > > Jeff > Me whining about rust. :) > > > Muriatic Acid? Why? Is those all fuzz green things still shorts > things or still giving problems even resulting mess was cleaned up > with strong alcohol and checked out for shorts, I did not find any > opens or shorts....? > Most batteries seem to leak an alkaline substance so acid will neutralize it. Why Muriatic Acid? While there may be better things around, I used to own a printed circuit shop and that was what we used to clean up the solder plated boards without damaging them or leaving some other residue on the boards. What happens if you don't neutralize any remaining residue from the batteries? You may find the board failing at some time in the future. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 15 07:15:33 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: News from Apple References: Message-ID: <33CB69E5.6FF8@ndirect.co.uk> Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers wrote: > > On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. > > That conflicts with my memories. Remember, the Lisa didn't appear for > six years after the Apple II. Jobs is the one who talked Woz into > redesigning his homebrew system for production. Far from being against > the Apple II, that machine was what kept Jobs eating long enough to fail > with the Lisa and barely break even with the early Mac systems. This is true but it doesn't stop the fact that he was very mcu AGAINST continuing the Apple II production. He and his collegues even set up a separate group sporting a black flag with all the usual death simbols to testify that they regarded themselves as "pirates" against the "approve" estabilishment of the Apple family (read series II and later Lisa). >(We > needn't discuss his more recent "successes" -- even though I thought the > NeXt cubes were pretty neat). "Success" is a VERY subjective word. He is a successful man allright but is he happy? > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ================================================================ visit Brighton: From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Tue Jul 15 11:08:32 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Stan Veit's book References: <3.0.3.32.19970715094343.007f9e70@mail90> Message-ID: <33CBA080.1AAD@ndirect.co.uk> Glenn Roberts wrote: > > nice review enrico. Thank you. It's nice to be appreciated. enrico From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Tue Jul 15 20:59:41 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707151845.AA16261@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707160559.BAA07459@mail.cgocable.net> Jason D. Snipping in order...aw! not even better. :) > Can't say I disagree. You however confused my assertion of better > performace in terms of access times, with reliability. Its faster and more... Thanks for clearing up...no one is perfect. > Yes, heat is baddie for anything remotely useful machines... > true, but there are voice coil dries out there that do not hold up well too. > It's a design trade made by some companies thinking the mechanics will never > outlive the electronics. Much of it is process quality and handling. Most > bad drives I've seen were from warm enviornments or dropped in their life. Sounds like you're talking about el cheapo drives that uses voice coil? What I saw so far is usually few mech/coils/ failure and most boards/platter/heads/bearings failures especially that Maxtor. :)) > It has a problem with gyroscopc precession, this makes it very susceptable > to small shocks when running. The bearing does not like sideloads either. > I agree it could have been better thought out. Thanks...I thought so too and still wished Seagate learned better BUT past is past but not with rebranded "Conner" of their low end is still begging for trouble. :) > Your assertion about smaller is better yes, in many ways but not always when someone cuts corner. Designers: Take note! > Your tips about LLF/temp. Yes, I did too. > need speed I try to use others (quantum q540 30mb is nice!). My god, reliable, massive, trumping hd! :)) Quantum still is making good drives and very reliable even to low end ones. Wow. Reason I kept suggesting mid to high end is for performance wise. > Your list of drive ripped open.... Did: nearly all Seagate series, few CDC, few Imipris, lots Miniscribe, few Mircropolis, lots Kalok (virtual clone of ST225, huh!), Kocera, lots of Conner of any kinds and oddballs including 2.5" , WD very few. Did Microscience, IMI, lots of Maxtor, Toshiba, odd ball JVC's, Nec yuk! One comment, DEC never make their hd's far as I was concerned, contracted out to anyone willing to do it for Dec's biddings. :( Once, I got a RZ23 scsi, can't use it on pc, returned back. If there's was a way to make this work, great! > I have an st238 that refuses to die! That's ST225 serie with RLL, odd 26 sectors, ST250R uses 31 sectors by 771 I think. > Allison's advices of cleaning/smaller is better stuff... Still they require good cooling anyway. > >AC or no AC by me... > > Tell me! I run microvaxen, Q-bus PDP-11s and s100 systems and 20 years of > experince (and reliability studies) has taught me 90F is a hard ceiling and > to shutdown with fans running if it gets hotter. I know this from my days > at DEC in the mill when my office system (11/23) was fried by an AC failure, > the area hit 98f and the 11 went down for the count. I've been pulling the > plug regularly this year as we've had a lot of warm here in MA. ;-) Really? Several suggestions: If you add more fans to monitors, turn off unneeded lights, close the sun-lit window and few uneeded equipment, you will cut down the heat. When I ran my monitor w/o fans my bedroom feel hotter; with fans on monitor, room felt cooler. Both of my pc and monitor is there. > Even without AC, every effort to remove heat is good! Even if you can't > lower the ambient, keeping the guts closer to it will help greatly. Thanks! > My s100 crate has two 5" 120cfm fans pushing air up through the cage and it .... > compared the the 8" drive and considering it's 20 years old... it still > runs. I am hearing the noisy fans on monitor, one fan blowing into is pulled from dumptered dec rainbow (sorry!) and a PC fan on top pulling hot air out. > > Even my ba123 microvax, I replaced the fans to blow up as someone put them > in backwards for less noise. You fight convection and lose cooling ..... > where things may have been replaced but with the wrong >(underrated) items. Those fools...I quote again: "no user serviceable inside..." angry hiss. Simply tell users if they want anything altered, ask tech people to do it instead! The fan can be flipped around. Allison's ranting about back up stuff...yes right, I know. Jason D. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 16 03:31:58 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Keyboard for? In-Reply-To: <33CC1183.47DC@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > I've got a keyboard labeled "Executive Peripheral Systems" copyright > 1982. What makes it strange is the cartridges that plug in. This one > has three cartridges that plug into the keyboard along with some > corresponding overlays to identify the funtion keys. The first > cartridge is labeled "Your Program" and is also labeled "BASIC & DOS." > The second is "BASIC & DOS" for use with the ApplewriterII, and the > third is "BASIC & DOS" for use with Visicalc. The connector looks like > an RJ-11 telephone connector (with 6 connections.) Anyone know what > this thing is? Thanks. If its for AppleWriter II then my guess would be it was for an Apple ][ and had special keys for making it easier to use Visicalc and perhaps some editing features for programming in AppleSoft BASIC. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 16 03:44:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: <33CB69E5.6FF8@ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > I think you have got the story (dare I call it history?) WRONG. Steve > > > Jobs, when was trying to put the Lisa and later the Macintosh on the > > > market, was very much AGAIST the Apple II. His mate Steve "The Woz" > > > Wozniac was the one who designed and sustained model II. > > > > That conflicts with my memories. Remember, the Lisa didn't appear for > > six years after the Apple II. Jobs is the one who talked Woz into > > redesigning his homebrew system for production. Far from being against > > the Apple II, that machine was what kept Jobs eating long enough to fail > > with the Lisa and barely break even with the early Mac systems. > > This is true but it doesn't stop the fact that he was very mcu AGAINST > continuing the Apple II production. He and his collegues even set up a > separate group sporting a black flag with all the usual death simbols to > testify that they regarded themselves as "pirates" against the "approve" > estabilishment of the Apple family (read series II and later Lisa). I think you're reading too much into this. Jobs wasn't against the II. On the other hand, he WAS for the Mac. John Sculley killed the Apple ][. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 16 07:46:09 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: Philip: Thanks for the error codes. I have no manuals for the Datamaster, so I'm flying blind. The code "09" is inverse-blinking, so there is a real problem. I'll try to pull the chips and re-seat them. The machine worked last summer and wasn't used since then, so I can't imagine the chip going like that. Thanks again for the help. I'll let you know what I find. My company has a UK office (Burdale-Holdings, a trade finance company). If I do need a new chip, maybe we could arrange it so that you could drop it off at our London office (if you're near it) and they could send it to me. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking Date: Tue, 15 Jul 97 09:05:06 BST From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706158689.AA868982856@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > Well, I'm reviving my Datamaster. Last year, it worked fine (I at least > could get into Basic). This year, I can't even get it to boot. I have no > manuals for the darned thing, so I have no idea what the numbers on the screen > during the POST mean. I have one reverse-highlighted number: "09" and I'm > assuming that this is a hardware failure code. As promised, I have hunted through my various IBM System/23 (Datamaster) manuals, and found the meanings of the POD (Power-on Diagnostics) error codes. Here is a summary: FF} 00} CPU Failure (!) 01} 02 Failure of first ROS module (Read Only Storage module, i.e. ROM chip) 03 Reserved. If this is highlighted, panic. 04 Failure in bottom 16k of storage, or of storage controller 05 CRT (presumably actually monitor) or DMA failure 06} CRT interface 07} 08 Page registers 09-} ROS failure. There follows a little diagram to tell you which chip 19 } to replace. Yes, the diagram in the manual is made of text, too. ** TOP VIEW OF PLANAR SEEN FROM THE REAR ** _______________________________________________ | ====== ====== <-- NOT FOUND ON | | | 10 | | 11 | <-- SOME EARLY | | =3=40= =3=60= <-- MACHINES | | | | ====== ====== | | | 19 | | 0D | | | =7=60= =1=60= | | *********************** | | =PATCH= ====== * PHYSICAL LOCATION * | | | 18 | | 0C | * OF ROS MODULES * | | =7=40== =1=40= * FOR EACH ERROR CODE * | | *********************** | | ====== ====== | | | 17 | | 0B | -KEY- | | =6=60= =0=60= ====== | | | XX | | | ====== ====== =Y=ZZ= | | | 16 | | 0A | XX=POD ERROR CODE | | =6=40= =0=40= Y=ROS PAGE VALUE | | ZZ=HIGH ORDER BYTE OF | | ====== ====== FIRST ADDRESS IN | | | 15 | | 09 | ROS MODULE. | | =5=60= =0=20= | | ---(CABLE)-------------- | | ====== ====== | ====== | | | | 14 | | 02 | | | 09 | CO-PLANAR | | | =5=40= =0=00= | =0=20= BOARD. | | | | (FOUND ON | | | ====== | ====== SOME EARLY | | | | 13 | | | 10 | MACHINES.) | | | =4=60= | =3=40= | | | | | | | ====== | ====== | | | | 12 | | | 11 | | | | =4=40= | =3=60= | | | ------------------------ | ----------------------------------------------- 1A-} ROS failure on feature card 26 } 27 ROS failure on 2nd printer card 28} ROS failure on feature card 29} 2A-} RAM failure. Table (which I shan't include) of how codes 30 } relate to different sizes of machine. 31 RAM page access failure 32 DMA page register failure 33 Interrupt controller failure 34 Timer interrupt failure 35 Keyboard error. If flashing, keyboard controller. If not flashing, you pressed a key at the wrong moment :-) 36 Printer failure 37 Printer not switched on 38 Diskette attachment failure 39 24 volt rail not reading 24 volts 3A-} belong to add-ons not to the system. I didn't bring the FE } relevant manual pages. General rules for interpretation: Flashing inverse video = fatal error. Non-flashing inverse video = error. Press the Error-reset key and let the machine finish booting. Then run the diagnostics dikette, I suppose. To summarise, it appears you have a dud ROM chip. I imagine the solution is to copy a ROM chip from another Datamaster. If necessary, I can arrange to copy mine, but I don't know off-hand what sort of chips they are. I would also suggest that, unless you too are in England, logistics of getting the chip to you might be hard... Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Das Feuer brennt, das Feuer nennt die Luft sein Schwesterelement - und frisst sie doch (samt dem Ozon)! Das ist die Liebe, lieber Sohn. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 16 07:59:37 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model I EI question Message-ID: Allison: >>the mod was to bring out ras* cas* and MUX* with terminating resistors at one or both ends. These signals went through the EI cable but timing was critical at best. the later EIs derived cas* and mux* off of ras* inside rather than pipe them over. Generally speaking the mod was one where if it was mostly working it MIGHT help, sometimes it made it worse. There was another mod after that called the buffered EI cable...not a good idea either. Fixing the EI was the solution.<< One of the two units that I have has the mod and the other doesn't. The one without came with the buffered EI cable, so what you said makes sense. Thanks for the info; now I can trace the mod on the new schematics. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Wed Jul 16 14:28:24 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Datamaster troubles Message-ID: <9706168690.AA869088574@compsci.powertech.co.uk> Rich Cini wrote: > Thanks for the error codes. I have no manuals for the Datamaster, so I'm > flying blind. The code "09" is inverse-blinking, so there is a real problem. > > I'll try to pull the chips and re-seat them. The machine worked last summer > and wasn't used since then, so I can't imagine the chip going like that. Yes. Definitely! The diagram in my last post should tell you which chip it is. Now I think of it, I had a problem with my Commodore PET in which chips would ease their way out of the sockets on the motherboard. In the end I bought some decent turned-pin sockets and soldered these in place of the originals. Problem cured. One of the PET ROM chips lost a pin in the course of all this. (AAARGH!). Solution here was to take a staple from my stapler, open it flat, insert into socket in place of missing pin, and solder to the stub on the side of the chip. Wire cutters then trimmed both ends, and chip was as good as new! > Thanks again for the help. I'll let you know what I find. My company has a UK > office (Burdale-Holdings, a trade finance company). If I do need a new chip, > maybe we could arrange it so that you could drop it off at our London office > (if you're near it) and they could send it to me. Why did I open my big keyboard? Yes, should it come to that I shall be happy to do something of the sort, but I don't (a) know what kind of chips they are or (b) possess an EPROM programmer (shock horror!). There is at least one other Datamaster owner on this list, so if someone out there is better equipped than I am to help Rich, please speak up now! Philip. From william at ans.net Wed Jul 16 09:25:33 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: History of Video Games (RE: "Bally Astrocade") In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970715185752.5dd7b438@ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199707161425.AA25449@interlock.ans.net> > There were other 2-joystick games, including Sinistar (mine bombs to blow up > Sinistar before it's completely built) and a spiderweb game which I forget > the name of. Black Widow by Atari - vector graphics and quite rare. William Donzelli william@ans.net From idavis at comland.com Wed Jul 16 10:09:50 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > >>> What should be on display considering: >>> 1) space limitation >>> 2) Mainframes, minis, micros >>> 3) What would most attract visitors >>> 4) What would most attract funding :) >5- Location, Location, Location!!! > Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn into a travelling museum/art show. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jul 17 10:22:17 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <01BC920D.A01174E0@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> Hi, does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack for a ST Book??? From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 16 10:28:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers Message-ID: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 12, 97 03:00:12 pm Message-ID: <199707161546.QAA01494@lilith.rsc.co.uk> > And, I need a username and password to log into it. What's the VMS > equilvalent of root? Equivalent is system If you don;t have it, depending on the model [I own a microVax II] boot up in admin mode [on mine it's I think b /s] when at the sysgen prompt set UAFALTERNATE to true, then any password should work. May be totaly different for your Vax however. I cool thing to check out is NetBSD Vax... Groovy free Unix for Vaxine. The things on the back... serial ports for terminals???? #define AUTHOR "Grant Mitchell" /*RSC Tech Support*/ #include /*include obligatory song lyrics*/ #include /*Usual don't blame me stuff*/ void main(){printf"bleep, bleep, That's all folks");} From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 16 10:45:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! In-Reply-To: <01BC920D.A01174E0@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Stefan Walgenbach wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack > for a ST Book??? Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 16 07:29:28 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:20 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers In-Reply-To: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707161629.MAA23593@mail.cgocable.net> Allison, I have WD's true story...to tell.. > Never confuse reliability with quality. the 3.5" drive have inherant > reliability over the larger ones but crap is still crap. Depends on brand actually. Because my friend who runs computer business says Quantums he sold over 400 over few years period and he says he can count on one hand that came back bad. I have to agree because I have not seen not too many duds from Quantums unless was destroyed by users. For Seagate low end especially if it's their seagate design not conner. Mid to hi end are fine. ST5 series are middle to hi end and that shows. > > Unknown ask others. I have a fujitsu with no complaints but I know others > that see nothing but failures of the next larger and smaller model. I will > say I've seen models where vendor xx is the one to have and two years later > that vendor is producing duds. The MTBF for these drives is so high that > they should last for many years of you believe specs and all the parts are > up to quality. However a head crash suggests a defect or handling problems > (dropped) maybe before you even got it. I cringe when people ship hard > disks without major padding. About Fujitsu, not too bad quality but very few and hard to get, odd performance as well. Yes, yes yes thickly and firmly pad the hd for shipping!!! :)) yes right! I have seen conner ship their 10 drives in so called padded cardboard grid. NOT! > > FYI I have at least three 3.5" drives with good media and dead boards! if > anyone has a wd-AC160 or wd-caviar2340 that's dead I'd love the board from > them. I have stuff on those that should have been backed up. Well, I have to join you on this too. :) Anyone have a WDAC2200 logic board? Someone previous to me burned out the board on bare metal surface. Story of the lifetime... Ok, quite while back I scored a coup on 4 drives for $40, good ST3290A, sick conner 2.5" 60megger booted out as you know what I hated conner, two WD's sick 540mb and crushed WD21000. Did I heard "crushed"? That's right, crushed! Key word is that seal is not piecred or broken. Both WD still under warrenty and I was honest and meek when I called WD for RMA and told the service that one hd is crushed and the service asked if the seal was broke, no. Fine ship both back when you get RMA, one mistake in RMA oops, called again fixed it and got new RMA. Shipped both with correct RMA and got the both back execpt for 540 was out of stock so "upgraded" to 850 model and I got the WD21000. Cool! Still in original box and unbroken seal bag brand new 1gb hd. This goes with one motherboard when I find a lunchbox for linux work. The crushed hd top at one end was really crunched in on front at one place with some degree of flat crush across front end only but none of parts did not broke free and the whole top looked someone slid it across whole length of landing strip. What interesting most is the logic board survived the tramua with nary a mark on it. What worked this honest and being clear with what I have and no lies. Amazing. One warning: YMMV. By the way anyone got a interesting tale to tell us in turn? Jason D. > Allison > > > From walgen at do.isst.fhg.de Thu Jul 17 12:14:20 1997 From: walgen at do.isst.fhg.de (Stefan Walgenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <01BC921D.417D9F70@dhcp9.do.isst.fhg.de> ---------- From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu Sent: Donnerstag, 17. Juli 1997 18:00 To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Re: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! >> Hi, >> >> does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack >> for a ST Book??? > > Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? Yes - sorry I forgett to mention Atari in my posting - it is a Atari ST Book - a real notebook not one of the big Atari STacy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2311 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970717/f68d7428/attachment-0001.bin From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jul 16 12:39:34 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970716133934.00968e70@mail.northernway.net> Howdy, guys & Gals! I just came back from our local [p]university's junk-sale and I did find a couple of interesting things: they had all their equipment for sale: $5 per item. I left all the 8088 / monochrome clone junk (I remember when these were bought... most *were* junk).. I found an Epson LQ-500 with tractor feed -- $5. I picked up a Mac IIsi ?/40 (nice Quantum 40Megger in it :-) for -- $5.00 [Drum roll, please] And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. Did I do good? Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow. Here's a question: Who's interested in typesetting equipment? They had a Compugraphic machine with 8" drives there... dunno price. But it had several font carts with it, and I do know this baby's classic. (The stuff I used to work on was at least 10 years old, and this is older.) Maybe I'll go back and get that tomorrow as well... if my wife doesn't kill me first! If anyone's interested in the other commie stuff lemme know today and I'll snag it tomorrow. (E-mail's best... see below.) Anywho, any info on the B-128 would be most appreciated! Thanks one and all! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 13:47:33 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: MTBF vs. lifetime In-Reply-To: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Jul 16, 97 11:28:39 am Message-ID: <9707161747.AA17383@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 726 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/2c6b29d0/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 14:22:58 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's In-Reply-To: <9707061946.AA01707@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 6, 97 12:46:26 pm Message-ID: <9707161822.AA17301@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1372 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/ccae578d/attachment-0001.ksh From s-ware at nwu.edu Wed Jul 16 13:50:05 1997 From: s-ware at nwu.edu (Scott Ware) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716133934.00968e70@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, > or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff > (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I > collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. The B-128 is a business-oriented machine that Commodore introduced in about 1982. The numeric portion of the model number and the amount of standard RAM are about all that it shares with the C-128. The standard processor is a 6509, although an 8088 can be installed as well. The display is 80-column monochrome. A version of BASIC is built in, and, with the optional 8088, it can (supposedly) run CP/M-86. As another B-128 owner, I'm interested in additional information on this machine, as well. How about it, Commodore fans? > Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door > style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky > Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow. You may want to go back for the drive unit. There was a PET-style dual drive unit at the store with my B-128 when I bought it, but I didn't see the connection between the two items (which should have been obvious - a Commodore with an IEEE-488 interface and a PET-style floppy disk unit) at first and passed the drive unit up due to lack of space. Unfortunately, it was gone when I came to my senses the next day and went back for it. -- Scott Ware s-ware@nwu.edu From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 13:45:26 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about > contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, > or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of > other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and > I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn > into a travelling museum/art show. > > Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, While you're at it, you could have a picture on the monitors that would show everyone the graphics capabilities of the machine. (i.e. have a digitized Degas on an Amiga, etc.) L From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 13:47:11 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: What Classic Computer are All About - A Lovers References: <199707161528.AA12991@world.std.com> Message-ID: <33CD172F.20C5@rain.org> Allison J Parent wrote: > > FYI I have at least three 3.5" drives with good media and dead boards! if > anyone has a wd-AC160 or wd-caviar2340 that's dead I'd love the board from > them. I have stuff on those that should have been backed up. Just out of curiosity, how do you know the media is okay and the board is dead? I've gone through quite a few IDE HDs changing the board from a good one only to find out that the board was not the problem. While I haven't done any failure analysis on them, I would suspect either a bad chip at the end of the flexures that hold the heads, or a failure in the flex cable itself. From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jul 16 13:48:48 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > > > Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about > > contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, > > or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of > > other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and > > I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn > > into a travelling museum/art show. > > > > Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, > > While you're at it, you could have a picture on the monitors that would > show everyone the graphics capabilities of the machine. (i.e. have a > digitized Degas on an Amiga, etc.) > Or some ASCII-art on a PDP... From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 13:53:27 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970716133934.00968e70@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Howdy, guys & Gals! > > And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, > or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff > (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I > collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. The B-128 was meant to be a "business" computer. Our high school was a commodore school (no Apple II's here!) so they had a lot of these laying around. Looking at the B-128/256 users manual I have... 6509 CPU with optional Z80 and 8088 CPU's for CP/M 128k memory expandable to 256k internally and another 704k externally for a total of 960k. "Ports" include: IEEE-488 Bus, RS232C, Dual 8-bit User Ports, and it had "integrated" disk drive(s). Those computers are REALLY neat looking. (You have to see one to know what i mean) Sorta like a Funky looking PET. Les > It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" > RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at > it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it > seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and > that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. > > Did I do good? > > Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door > style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky > Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow. > > Here's a question: Who's interested in typesetting equipment? They had a > Compugraphic machine with 8" drives there... dunno price. But it had > several font carts with it, and I do know this baby's classic. (The stuff I > used to work on was at least 10 years old, and this is older.) > > Maybe I'll go back and get that tomorrow as well... if my wife doesn't kill > me first! > > If anyone's interested in the other commie stuff lemme know today and I'll > snag it tomorrow. (E-mail's best... see below.) > > Anywho, any info on the B-128 would be most appreciated! > > Thanks one and all! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional > Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers > zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? > From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Wed Jul 16 03:44:01 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707160844.EAA21587@wincom.net> At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major >stumbling block is, of course, funding. But that aside, what type of >things does this group think a computer museum should consist of and >what should it offer? I am talking here about a physical location as >opposed to an online web site. > >The type of things I am currently considering are: > >What should be on display considering: >1) space limitation >2) Mainframes, minis, micros >3) What would most attract visitors >4) What would most attract funding :) > >Other activities to make the museum more than just a display of >computers: >1) Computer certification classes >2) Availability of documentation for those doing historical computer >research >3) Newsletter >4) Information on promoting computer collecting >5) Being able to provide docs and software (subject to copyright >restrictions of course) > >I am thinking of quite a few other things but this will do for a start. > > We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of interest to get more public support. Good luck Charlie Fox From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 14:57:29 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: Message-ID: <33CD27A9.546E@rain.org> Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > While you're at it, you could have a picture on the monitors that would > > show everyone the graphics capabilities of the machine. (i.e. have a > > digitized Degas on an Amiga, etc.) > > > > Or some ASCII-art on a PDP... And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where you put an AM radio near it as the output device! From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 16:05:08 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 16, 97 06:48:48 pm Message-ID: <9707162005.AA17936@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/9268edda/attachment-0001.ksh From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 15:07:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: <199707160844.EAA21587@wincom.net> Message-ID: <33CD2A0C.7040@rain.org> Charles E. Fox wrote: > > At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the > >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major > We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to > start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of > interest to get more public support. Has he been actively trying to get one started, and if so, what has been the major problem? One thing that has been suggested by a couple people I have talked to is to have displays that include technology developed by local companies. My feeling so far is that the funding sources will have a large impact on what is covered. I saw an interesting web site a couple of days ago, http://www.mysticseaport.org, that has what appears to be a somewhat self supporting museum going, i.e. no state or federal monies involved. I find THAT to be most admirable!!! From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 16 15:09:49 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums References: <9707162005.AA17936@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <33CD2A8D.15D5@rain.org> Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Or even better, Lunar Lander on a GT40 vector display on a PDP-11/05... > The PDP-11/05 is no problem but I am not familar with a GT40 vector display and what is required to interface it, both hardware and software. Please enlighten me :)! Thanks. From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Wed Jul 16 16:15:23 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <199707161715_MC2-1B03-5891@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >And I found a Commie B-128. I've heard of the C-128... are these similar, or is this actually the same thing, or what? I'm not big on Commie stuff (goofiest basic I've ever played with... and slooooo disk drives) but I collect for uniqueness, and this seemed rather unique. It has a card-edge IEEE-488 port, card-edge cassette, cartridge, "normal" RS-232 and other ports (that I don't remember... I just got a quick look at it), the Serial number is 0025xx (don't remember last two digits, but it seems early) and IIRC (but I haven't seen a C-128 in nearly a decade -- and that was only at K-mart) it looks different from a C-128. Did I do good? Also, they had a PET-style CBM-8050 (or was that 5080...) dual garage-door style disk drives, and a printer that hooked up thru a funky Centronics-like cable. Interested in those? I could go back tomorrow.< The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the last/best members of the Commodore PET/CBM line; the C-128 was one of the last/best members of the VIC/64 line. Both had 128K. The PET/CBM units use an IEEE-488 interface for adding drives, printers, etc., and this parallel approach is fairly fast; the VIC/64 line use a proprietary serial connection that is fairly slow. In other words, you'd better get back and pick up that 8050 if you want a disk drive that attaches to the B-128; there are other PET/CBM drives that would also work (e.g., 4040, 8250), but the 8050 would probably provide the greatest compatibility if you ever want to pick up software. Drives from the 15xx series (1541, 1571, 1581) won't help you here. Did you do good? Only you can answer that. The unit isn't extremely common, but isn't extremely rare either. If you're not into Commodore, you might want to find someone who is and see if you can work a swap of some kind. (I already have a B-128, thanks.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jul 16 17:08:45 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <33CD27A9.546E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > Or some ASCII-art on a PDP... > > And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where > you put an AM radio near it as the output device! I thought that was the Altair. It was Dompier's altair, at some meeting. The TX-0 also played music, but that was through a speaker. And I'm pretty sure the 11s had some sound capabilities besides ^G... From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 16 18:25:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <33CD2A8D.15D5@rain.org> from "Marvin" at Jul 16, 97 01:09:49 pm Message-ID: <9707162225.AA14981@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970716/d5e10813/attachment-0001.ksh From frank at 5points.com Wed Jul 16 17:31:38 1997 From: frank at 5points.com (Frank Peseckis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > References: <1.5.4.32.19970716150950.008f5a88@mail.comland.com > Message-ID: <33d848ef.259973978@mail.capital.net> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:09:50 -0500, Isaac Davis wrote: >Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How about >contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a couple of rooms, >or however they do their shows. You could get together with a couple of >other collectors and have a "display". We consider these a form of art, and >I'm sure you could pull in a very diverse crowd. Who knows, you might turn >into a travelling museum/art show. I'm almost there -- I still own the building I ran a gallery for contemporary art from for about ten years. I closed the gallery a couple years ago to spend more time on my other work (physics), but I now use the former gallery's back rooms, where I once stored my inventory of paintings and sculpture, to house my current collection of old computers. Classic computers, especially if opened to display their inner workings, could make a rather stunning exhibition -- far more interesting than a lot of contemporary art. :-) Frank Frank Peseckis frank@5points.com http://www.5points.com/ From allisonp at world.std.com Wed Jul 16 17:44:59 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707162244.AA21202@world.std.com> <> And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where <> you put an AM radio near it as the output device! < <>Well, I had an idea, and it's just so crazy, it just might work. How <>about <>contacting an art gallery, and see if they will lend you a <>couple of ... This is one I'd be interested in. Computers/terminals/printers etal represent the art of engineering in many forms. Mechanical, there were some inovative packages. Conceptual, the packaged home computer like the PT SOL-20. Electronics... afew were designwise ahead of the pack. application... it wasn't the machine, it was it's useability. Art both musical and visual. Some were interally well done and had order and form like archectecture. Some like the cromemco dazzler were color graphics back in 76! Or like the PIAA-8700 for music. Ergonomics... the vt100 terminal was a standard for more than the terminal operation it was an erogonomic advance over many with the seperate keyboard, setup on screen and down to small things like the dull black bezel around the crt! Allison From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 16 19:47:15 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970716174920.30bf756a@ricochet.net> At 05:22 PM 7/17/97 +0200, you wrote: >does anyone know where to get a power supply and/or a battery pack >for a ST Book??? No, but if you give up searching, I'd love to take it off your hands! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 16 19:47:24 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: power supply/battery pack for ST Book?! Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970716174923.30bf58b2@ricochet.net> At 08:45 AM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >> for a ST Book??? > >Are you referring to an Atari? As in an Atari ST Laptop, or rather a STacy? The ST Book was an actual laptop with an ST inside. As far as I know few if any were ever produced. (Perhaps they made it to Europe, which is where Tramiel always concentrated.) Different from the STacy which was also portable, but required a much bigger lap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From william at ans.net Wed Jul 16 19:59:51 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707170059.AA05170@interlock.ans.net> > > And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where > > you put an AM radio near it as the output device! > > I thought that was the Altair. > It was Dompier's altair, at some meeting. The TX-0 also played music, but > that was through a speaker. And I'm pretty sure the 11s had some sound > capabilities besides ^G... I do not know about PDP-11s, but PDP-12s (and LINC-8s, I think), have a speaker connected to the LSB of the accumulator (volume knob provided, of course). Additionally, the LINC-8 has a bell that chimes when the halt instruction is executed. For funding a museum, why not cut an album of all of your favorite minis in action? Sure to go to the top of the charts... William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Wed Jul 16 20:45:48 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Scrapyards (was: PAM computer, Convergent?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707170145.AA07121@interlock.ans.net> > I would also imagine that the older IRIS 2000 series workstations and the > 1000 series graphics terminals are quite rare. From what I've seen, the > IRIS 3000 series systems are much more common. I've seen quite a few of > these available for sale or hauling, and I know of several that are still > in use. Actually, I mean the 1000 and 2000 series. Maybe I just got lucky and saw the results of one or two good shipments. At the time, I did not get the stuff, but now that I need lots of spare parts, I regret my choice (lesson learned, again!). If I were you (and, of course, if you are interested), I would grab the Iris 3000 stuff. It will soon be gone. William Donzelli william@ans.net From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 22:54:23 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <199707161715_MC2-1B03-5891@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the > last/best members of the Commodore PET/CBM line; the C-128 was one of the > last/best members of the VIC/64 line. Both had 128K. The PET/CBM units > use an IEEE-488 interface for adding drives, printers, etc., and this > parallel approach is fairly fast; the VIC/64 line use a proprietary serial > connection that is fairly slow. OK, I think we need some clarification here. What does your "B-128" look like? My B series user guide indicates four distinct models... 1. C128-40 "Advanced Personal Computer" Basically this is a B128-80 with a 40 column screen (sounds like a VIC chip to me) and comes in a low profile case (sorta like an amiga or 64) Not to be confused with the more common C128. 2. and 3. B128-80 "Advanced Business Computer" the manula says there were two versions of a B128. A low-profile model and, of course, a high profile one. The low-profile model is like the C128-40 but the high profile model has integral disk drive(s) and display and a detachable keyboard. The low-profile, of course, required external drives (IEEE-488) and video. 4. B256-80 "Advanced 16-bit Proffessional Computer" this model only came in the high profile case (I think) and came standard with 256k ram (as opposed to the 128k i the other "B" computers), dual processors (6509 and 8088), and "spots" for optional Z80 and 8087 co processors. Really neato looking machine. > In other words, you'd better get back and pick up that 8050 if you want a > disk drive that attaches to the B-128; there are other PET/CBM drives that > would also work (e.g., 4040, 8250), but the 8050 would probably provide the > greatest compatibility if you ever want to pick up software. Drives from > the 15xx series (1541, 1571, 1581) won't help you here. > > Did you do good? Only you can answer that. The unit isn't extremely > common, but isn't extremely rare either. If you're not into Commodore, you > might want to find someone who is and see if you can work a swap of some > kind. (I already have a B-128, thanks.) > Gil Parrish Well, I'm "in" to Commodore and don't yet have one so if yer willing to sell/trade, lemme know! Also, if you want a copy of my "User's guide" that shouldn't be much of a problem, it's a whole 120 pages. Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 16 23:32:21 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series Message-ID: catching up... Most of what has already been said here is pretty much correct. I'll add: B-series were regular low-profile micros. CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the CBM series machines. IMO they're pretty nice machine which had some attractive options when they came out. They didn't last long and very little seems to have been written for them. You can find schematics for the B-128-80 in the archive (Web/FTP). If any of you need a drive for one of these CBM 4040's work fine (8050 is a better but less common drive). I have a number of 4040s and could definitely part with a couple if you want to pay the shipping costs (heavy, heavy drives). As soon as I clear through the research I have several items for this series that will go in the archive - the manual, a word processor and a spreadsheet, and some technical notes. Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up owning the rights to this stuff? Bill From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Wed Jul 16 23:45:56 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > B-series were regular low-profile micros. > CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the > CBM series machines. Me neither. Anyone got one???? > If any of you need a drive for one of these CBM 4040's work fine > (8050 is a better but less common drive). I have a number of > 4040s and could definitely part with a couple if you want to pay > the shipping costs (heavy, heavy drives). Where are you located? My PET is lonely and has only a C2N cassette to play with... > As soon as I clear through the research I have several items for > this series that will go in the archive - the manual, a word > processor and a spreadsheet, and some technical notes. > > Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up > owning the rights to this stuff? > > Bill Last I checked/remembered, ESCOM held the rights to the Commodore name and to many of their patents/literature/etc. They are at http://www.commodore.net. Lately, Gateway purchased all the Amiga stuff and if I remember correctly started licensing clone makers. Much to the chagrin of commie lovers, the C= logo now only appears on PC clone boxes... :( Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 17 00:08:29 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series References: Message-ID: <33CDA8CD.6F93@rain.org> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > B-series were regular low-profile micros. > > CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the > > CBM series machines. > > Me neither. Anyone got one???? I have at a CBM 8032 and another something out in the garage that I *think* is another CBM machine. When I got it (8 or 10 years ago) it came with a bunch of cassette tapes, a CBM 8050 dual floppy drive, and some other stuff I haven't gotten back into to see what it is. At a quick glance, it looks like one of the 2001 series except for a slightly larger monitor and a slightly different looking keyboard. A friend of mine is going to loan me his digital camera to play around with and I hope to be putting up a web page within two months. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 17 01:21:16 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Amiga/C= (Re: Commodore B-128 series) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Last I checked/remembered, ESCOM held the rights to the Commodore name and >to many of their patents/literature/etc. They are at >http://www.commodore.net. Lately, Gateway purchased all the Amiga stuff >and if I remember correctly started licensing clone makers. Gateway got the Amiga stuff, but not the Commodore stuff. The two are once again seperate companies. Amiga is a seperate business unit of Gateway http://www.amiga.de , and I believe consists of 7 people. Apparently work is underway on a 64-bit version of the OS running on the PowerPC. I think there are a total of two clone makers, and Amiga itself has two models, both of which are '93 era tech! Somehow it seems like a ridiculous risk on Gateway's part, but who knows. As for Commodore, they are owned by some Dutch company now I believe, but am not sure. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Thu Jul 17 04:11:47 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: HP 9836, HP 86 ?? In-Reply-To: <199707122130.QAA02137@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jul 1997, David Williams wrote: > Finally, I saw talk here recently about IBM external 5 1/4" floppy > drives. Someone said something about using one on an Amiga I think. > If this is possible please let me know as he has several. I guess that was me talking. I'm a bit of a special case, in that I have this little device called "Amiga Disk Driver" that plugs into the Amiga's external floppy port and wires up to a standard PC 3.5" floppy mechanism. To use the external IBM 5.25" drive, all I should have to do is build an adapter cable to the 37-pin connector on the IBM drive. Without this "Amiga Disk Driver" thingamy one would have to perform the (minor) magic performed in an external Amiga floppy drive some other way. I'm afraid I can't help you there. Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 17 08:33:19 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8501@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of the<< >OK, I think we need some clarification here. What does your "B-128" look like?< You'll have to ask the guy that left the original message. I was replying to him. However, his brief description made me assume it was a low-profile B128. >1. C128-40 "Advanced Personal Computer" Basically this is a B128-80 with a 40 column screen (sounds like a VIC chip to me) and comes in a low profile case (sorta like an amiga or 64) Not to be confused with the more common C128.< This one is also known as a P-500, and seems to have been the equivalent of a super-duper C64. It had the C64's 40 column color display (the rest of the line was monochrome) but had the faster IEEE drives, etc. >2. and 3. B128-80 "Advanced Business Computer" the manula says there were two versions of a B128. A low-profile model and, of course, a high profile one. The low-profile model is like the C128-40 but the high profile model has integral disk drive(s) and display< Presumably, if it was paired with an 8050 drive unit, it didn't have integral disk drives, and was the low profile model. >4. B256-80 "Advanced 16-bit Proffessional Computer"< He said "B128", and I'm taking him at his word. >Well, I'm "in" to Commodore and don't yet have one so if yer willing to sell/trade, lemme know!< Again, maybe the original poster will take you up on this. Also, I know one store in Oklahoma City that's had a low-profile B128 sitting around for some time. (I don't live in OKC, so I can't swear it's still there.) The store has a bad habit of never putting a price on anything, so I don't know if the guy wants a mint for it or just a few bucks. If you want to try contacting him, I'll try to dig up the name/address, but please don't put me to the effort unless this sounds like something you seriously want to pursue. >Also, if you want a copy of my "User's guide" that shouldn't be much of a problem, it's a whole 120 pages.< I have one, thanks, but the original poster might be in the market. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 17 08:33:22 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series Message-ID: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8504@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Any of you hard core commodore folks know who might have ended up owning the rights to this stuff?< No clue. Commodore, of course, went bankrupt. Originally, it looked like ESCOM ended up with everything. I made several efforts to contact ESCOM through e-mail to determine what their plans were for the old 8-bits items, and never could get a reply. Then, ESCOM went bankrupt. I'm not clear if the Commodore bankruptcy court sort of cancelled the deal retroactively, or if the assets were moved again in the ESCOM bankruptcy. Anyway, another party (Gateway?) ended up with the Amiga assets, but they don't have-- or aren't acknowledging that they have-- the old 8-bit assets. Frankly, I doubt this point will ever be clarified. If the old entities have been disolved, and no new entities obtained the rights before the dissolution, it would seem to me this stuff is now public domain. Of course, the simplest way to find out would be to start treating this stuff as public domain. If any entity out there believes it has the copyrights, it will then make itself known. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jul 17 09:23:12 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8501@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970717102312.0098fcd0@mail.northernway.net> Due to massive amounts of caffeine & sleep deprivation, Gil Parrish said: >Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>> The C-128 and B-128 are completely different. The B-128 was one of >the<< > >>OK, I think we need some clarification here. What does your "B-128" look >like?< > >You'll have to ask the guy that left the original message. I was replying >to him. However, his brief description made me assume it was a low-profile >B128. Ok. Here's the guy with the original message. To be honest, at first I wasn't sure what I had... >>2. and 3. B128-80 "Advanced Business Computer" >the manula says there were two versions of a B128. A low-profile model >and, of course, a high profile one. The low-profile model is like the >C128-40 but the high profile model has integral disk drive(s) and display< > >Presumably, if it was paired with an 8050 drive unit, it didn't have >integral disk drives, and was the low profile model. I have the low-profile version of the machine, with no monitor or drives. I plan on getting the 8050 drives today at noon, if they're still there. There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it. The machine is serial # C002688... Does anyone know if this is early, or is the C in the SN# mean the third time around the digits? Also, what was special about the 6509 processor over the 6502? [[ BTW, I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep this one or not... It seems rather unique, which I like, but I'm not sure if I'd actually use it, which is something I like to do as well... ]] >He said "B128", and I'm taking him at his word. Funny thing is, I think they used the same motherboard for the B128 and B256... there are solder holes & all for another bank of ram, but no sockets... you'd prolly want to solder in sockets, then add 16 more 4164-15's and Bingo! You should have 256K RAM. >>Well, I'm "in" to Commodore and don't yet have one so if yer willing to >sell/trade, lemme know!< I'll be keeping this in mind. Anyway, again -- I love this list! :-) -- and thanks one and all for the help you've given me for the help on this little beastie! I'll let y'all know if the 8050 was still there. Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 17 09:54:18 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment References: <3.0.1.32.19970717102312.0098fcd0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: <33CE321A.3B2E@rain.org> Roger Merchberger wrote: > > There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it. The machine is serial # > C002688... Does anyone know if this is early, or is the C in the SN# mean > the third time around the digits? Also, what was special about the 6509 > The B128-80 that I have is Serial #C010033. From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 17 10:02:07 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > > > > And while we are at it, put one of the music programs on the PDP where > > you put an AM radio near it as the output device! > > I thought that was the Altair. > It was Dompier's altair, at some meeting. The TX-0 also played music, but > that was through a speaker. And I'm pretty sure the 11s had some sound > capabilities besides ^G... Actually, both are correct. In the old OMSI computer lab we had a fairly good selection of tunes you could hear thru the AM radio atop the PDP-8. Later, the Altair picked up on this as well. In fact, I've still got a original copy of the Dompier programs and docs which I will be adding to my web pages as time permits... (OCR correcting and all...) B^} -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 17 10:06:44 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <199707162244.AA21202@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > The altair thing was via radio, but also there were not less that a dozen > different sound and music boards for altairs/s100 systems. Some I might add > were very good. At least one used the pinte line (shows the internal state > of the 8080 processor interrupt enable flag). Yep. That was the Processor Technology "Music System". I still have the board and software in my collection. Really do need to get a picture of the board onto the web pages. (all three resistors and two capacitors of it!) The software also appeared (briefly) as the infamous "Volume 39" of the CP/M User's Group library. (before P.T. started threatening everyone involved over copyright infringements and such) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 17 11:21:12 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jul 17, 97 08:06:44 am Message-ID: <9707171521.AA19829@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 500 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970717/beaf1253/attachment-0001.ksh From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 17 10:14:36 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8504@compuserve.com> References: <199707170933_MC2-1B09-8504@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <33ce3590.304368@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:33:22 -0400, Gil Parrish wrote: % If any entity out there believes it has the %copyrights, it will then make itself known. I tend to agree with this. If we make all 'reasonable' (and documented) efforts to contact who we believe to still hold the rights and do not receive any reply, then we should be able to reasonably assume that the stuff in question are public domain. This until such time when the real owner steps forward whereupon we prove (based on the documentation we have kept) that we have tried all means possible to contact the owner but received no reply. I believe this reasoning can apply to products which have long ceased production and where such products no longer have any commercial value (other than as collectibles). Ben From zmerch at northernway.net Thu Jul 17 12:06:04 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: More News on Commie stuff in Michigan Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970717130604.009613f0@mail.northernway.net> Hey, me again! I'm the guy with the funny Commodore stuff.... Just got back from the sale... the drives were gone. :-( The printer was still there (buried) -- it was a 4023 printer. No-one mentioned interest in the printer, so there it sits. It is IEEE-interfaced. Altho I did pick up a TI-59 calculator with 1 recording strip, says it contains diagnostics, IIRC. $5. (was marked $10, talked 'er down). I also got an *old* HP frequency counter, with cord & probe, $5. (Yea, it's not computer, but it'll help me fix computers, so I hope a quick mention is o.k. It should make a pretty good friend to Tex, my pet 'scope. ;-) I found a set of dual IBM 8" drives, marked $10. It had a funky interface (well, for micros) of a 25-pin female D _and_ a 15 pin (I think) female D... it was a 60xx series number, and the Compugraphic box with dual 8"ers is still there, no price. It had paper and a processor with it, tho. Anyway, sorry the drives were gone, thanks for the help on the B-128, and I'll try to reach my decision on keep/trade on the box over the weekend (I'll be canoeing... and *no*, this is one of the few places I won't take my Tandy 200!) Is a Mac IIsi classic yet? Not sure when they were made... it's got a 68030 with a 40Meg SCSI and (if I counted correctly) 9Meg RAM. If someone's got a color monitor (whatever it takes) mouse & keyboard for trade for it, that'd be cool... lemme know. (I'd be much more willing to trade the B-128 for this particular deal...) As always: Stay cool, keep your 'puters that way too, and clean those floppy drives every so often! ;^> Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | Why does Hershey's put nutritional Programmer, NorthernWay | information on their candy bar wrappers zmerch@northernway.net | when there's no nutritional value within? From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 17 12:00:19 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Les wrote: >>Last I checked/remembered, ESCOM held the rights to the Commodore name and >>to many of their patents/literature/etc. They are at >>http://www.commodore.net. Lately, Gateway purchased all the Amiga stuff >>and if I remember correctly started licensing clone makers. True, ESCOM, AG owned all of the rights to the Commodore name, intellectual property, etc., but it mid-96, filed for the German equivalent of bankruptcy (receivership, I think). This put the Commodore assets in play again. GW2K bought the Amiga stuff, but the other stuff is still in limbo (I think). In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone interested in buying Commodore assets?? I only have several VICs, a 64, and a lonely PET. I'm in need of "rounding out" my CBM collection. So many models, so little time... ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Thu Jul 17 12:32:09 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: <33CDA8CD.6F93@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Bill Whitson wrote: > > > > > B-series were regular low-profile micros. > > > CBM-series had integrated monitors. I've never seen one of the > > > CBM series machines. > > > > Me neither. Anyone got one???? Sorry for the misunderstanding... If by CBM series you mean the PET's then yeah I got one. I thought you were referring to the B series that had the integrated monitors and looked like PET's. Those are what i haven't seen yet. Les > > I have at a CBM 8032 and another something out in the garage that I > *think* is another CBM machine. When I got it (8 or 10 years ago) it > came with a bunch of cassette tapes, a CBM 8050 dual floppy drive, and > some other stuff I haven't gotten back into to see what it is. At a > quick glance, it looks like one of the 2001 series except for a slightly > larger monitor and a slightly different looking keyboard. A friend of > mine is going to loan me his digital camera to play around with and I > hope to be putting up a web page within two months. > From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Thu Jul 17 12:57:39 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind In-Reply-To: <9707141823.AA11496@alph02.triumf.ca> References: <563BD257A06@ifrsys.com> from "Jeff Kaneko" at Jul 14, 97 11:02:03 am Message-ID: <150A878A7B7E@ifrsys.com> Guys: Thanks to everyone who submitted information on my *controller* cards. I got pretty much everything I need to know on the -05 cards, but the -TB1 is still a problem. WD implied over the phone that this was custom made. OK. It is currently mounted in a Radio Shack cabinet with a Tandon 15Mb drive. Any Ideas? > > > > > One is a WD-1000-05, one's a WD-1000-50, and a WD-1000-TB1. If > > > > anyone has docs for these (or can tell me where to get them) I would > > > > really appreciate it. > > > > > > The Emulex SCSI controllers (adapting to MFM, SMD, or ESDI drives) are also > > ^^^^^^ > > > > I have a *MAJOR* axe to grind with these guys, dating from way back, > > BTW. > > Oh, really? Seeing as how the old Emulex was split up into little > tiny companies and the new Emulex is almost entirely in the network > business, I don't think you have anything to fear by telling your > story :-) > > Tim. > OK, maybe it's not really *that* relevent to this forum, but I'll relate the story anyway. In the early to mid 1980's, EMULEX purchased Persyst, a manufacturer of PeeCee display adaptors. Persyst (now EMULEX) made a pretty cool (for the time) 16-bit hi-rez display adaptor for the PC-AT called the BoB-16. They named it that because it represented the "Best of Both" the MDA and EGA adaptors in use at the time (that, and it was 16-bit). I bought one of these (cheaply, I'll admit) in 1988. I was gonna use it with a Mitsubishi Multisynch monitor (Which was pretty cool in its own right-- it could handle CGA, MDA, EGA, *and* composite video!). I got the docs and the driver kit from EMULEX (they did that much). So far so good. But the Windoze driver was for ver. 1.00! Another call to Emulex, and I was informed that "We don't make that board anymore, and we're not going to support it under Windoze 2.0". "Okay, that's cool, I understand how that goes. So, could you please give me the source for the 1.0 driver, so I can modify it?" "I'm sorry sir, but that's against company policy . . ." After many weeks of wheedling, cajoling, begging, pleading, and otherwise being a real pest, I gave up, swearing to Everything Holy that I would NEVER under any conditions purchase anything from EMULEX ever agin. Of course were something like this happen today, I could broadcast this on the Newsgroups or on a Web Page, and all of the bad press would stomp the likes of EMULEX into submission. End of Story. I still have the BoB-16 in a closet somewhere . . . Jeff From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 17 12:57:37 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums In-Reply-To: <9707171521.AA19829@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > The software also appeared (briefly) as the infamous "Volume 39" of the > > CP/M User's Group library. > > Ah, I see this volume is mysteriously missing from the oak.oakland.edu > archives and Walnut Creek CD/ROM archives... I'll have to see if > my collection of CPMUG floppies at home has it or not. (I definitely > have holes, but I never knew there were legal reasons for the holes!) > > > (before P.T. started threatening everyone > > involved over copyright infringements and such) > > Who is "P.T."? Processor Technology... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com Thu Jul 17 13:08:30 1997 From: clark_geisler at nortel-nsm.com (clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: looking for iRMX O/S for 8086 Message-ID: <97Jul17.112445pdt.32263@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> I'm trying to find diskettes and manuals for a release of iRMX that runs on an Intel 310-3A box (8086 processor). I have 2 of these running production electronics testing that have died. We are getting them repaired by InBUS. But we've never used the backups that were given to us when these machines transferred from another plant. We didn't get the original iRMX diskettes, and just a couple of manuals. I suspect the backups may be for just the application software, and not the entire hard disk (there are only 3 diskettes in the backup set). As far as I can tell, we are using iRMX-86 release 6. I've been trying to get someone at Radisys (who support the current version of iRMX), but haven't been able to speak to anything more than voice mail so far. I'm not very hopeful, though: this is pretty old stuff. Does anyone still have the diskettes and manuals for this release that I could copy or purchase? Thanks, Clark Geisler Test Engineer From jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu Thu Jul 17 14:19:59 1997 From: jott at maddog.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: TO: Clark Geisler In-Reply-To: <97Jul17.112445pdt.32263@teleport.nortel-nsm.com> from "clark_geisler@nortel-nsm.com" at Jul 17, 97 11:08:30 am Message-ID: <199707171919.OAA00335@mastif.ee.nd.edu> Hello - Please include your email address. I have iRMX release 7.0 What do you have to trade? John > > > I'm trying to find diskettes and manuals for a release of iRMX that > runs on an Intel 310-3A box (8086 processor). > > I have 2 of these running production electronics testing that have died. > We are getting them repaired by InBUS. But we've never used the > backups that were given to us when these machines transferred from another > plant. > We didn't get the original iRMX diskettes, and just a couple of manuals. > I suspect the backups may be for just the application software, and > not the entire hard disk (there are only 3 diskettes in the backup set). > > As far as I can tell, we are using iRMX-86 release 6. > > I've been trying to get someone at Radisys (who support the current > version of iRMX), but haven't been able to speak to anything > more than voice mail so far. I'm not very hopeful, though: this is pretty > old stuff. > > Does anyone still have the diskettes and manuals for this release > that I could copy or purchase? > > Thanks, > Clark Geisler > Test Engineer > > > -- *********************************************************************** * John Ott * Email: ott@saturn.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * * *********************************************************************** From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 17 15:33:50 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <199707171634_MC2-1B14-F9CB@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >I have the low-profile version of the machine, with no monitor or drives. I plan on getting the 8050 drives today at noon, if they're still there. There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it.< That's what it sounded like; this seems to be the most common machine in the P/B line, at least in the U.S. It's the same as what I have. >[[ BTW, I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep this one or not... It seems rather unique, which I like, but I'm not sure if I'd actually use it, which is something I like to do as well... ]]< "Using it" is somewhat problematic. While there is a fair chunk of software out there for the PET/CBM line, a lot of that won't run on the B series, at least without modification. As a "for instance", the typical way to find out how much memory you have on a Commodore machine is the check FRE(0). The "0" is a dummy variable on most C= units-- checking FRE(0) will give you the same answer as FRE(1) or FRE(10), etc.-- but "0" is the one typically used. However, on the B series, the variable makes a difference; since it is bank-switched, the different variables let you check different banks. As I recall, a PRINT FRE(0) command on a B-128 yields-- 0. So any software that checks for free memory-- and a lot of PET/CBM software did, since there were 8K machines, 16 K machines and 32K machines-- asks a B-128 that question, gets "0" in response, and crashes. I note the TPUG newsletter seems to indicate the group has some B-128 software, so you could try that route if you wanted. Or, trade the unit off, since it sounds like other folks might be interested. >Anyway, again -- I love this list! :-)< I'm finding it interesting too, at least when it covers the home 8-bits (which I know something about) and not mini-mainframes (which mean nothing to me personally). >-- and thanks one and all for the help you've given me for the help on this little beastie!< Hopefully, that's what we're here for! >I'll let y'all know if the 8050 was still there.< If you want to trade it off, you might not want the drives. Those 8050 and 4040 units are VERY heavy, and a true Commodore enthusiast may already have a compatible drive with his PET/CBM equipment. And there ARE other CBM drives that will work; you might run across them elsewhere. (Actually, one of the nicest drives to own is a third party dual drive called an MSD-SD2. It is a smaller and quite rugged drive, which uses the 4040/1541 format. It has both an IEEE port and a Commodore serial port, so it will work with virtually any C= unit ever made (not counting Amiga and PC-clones). Further, another party came up with a "mass duplicator rom" for it, that allows quick copying from one drive to the other. In fact, it will copy a standard Commodore disk in 15 seconds, or 22 seconds for copy with verify-- and it doesn't even have to be hooked to a computer to do so!) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 17 16:35:17 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind Message-ID: <2942@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> In message <150A878A7B7E@ifrsys.com> classiccmp@u.washington.edu writes: > Guys: > > Thanks to everyone who submitted information on my *controller* > cards. I got pretty much everything I need to know on the -05 cards, > but the -TB1 is still a problem. WD implied over the phone that this > was custom made. OK. It is currently mounted in a Radio Shack > cabinet with a Tandon 15Mb drive. Any Ideas? Have you tried Tandy/Radio Shack National Parts? At one time they sold service manuals for all their computer stuff, and such manuals almost always contained schematics/data on the 'bought-in' parts -- things like PSUs, drives, monitors, etc. IIRC if the stock number for the device was 26-abcd, then the service manual was MS260-abcd. At least in the UK, they were available to the general public. There may also have been a Technical Manual (which would have had a different stock number), but I doubt it. Talking of Tandy stuff, I bought a second-hand Model 4 last weekend. Does anyone know where to get a Technical Manual for this machine? What I really need is a list of Supervisor Calls, Docs on the I/O ports, and a schematics of the CPU board. I believe I have a 'gate array' board - there's a 40 pin chip with a Tandy custom number next to the Z80A. I'd be quite happy to buy the entire technical manual if it's still available anywhere, but I do already have the Model 3 manual, so I don't need any info on the disk drives/controller, RS232 board, PSU, or monitor. Anyway, with this machine I got a Cummana hard disk unit. Cummana were a UK company who later went on to make disk drives for the Acorn BBC micro. This unit contains a Shugart 612 disk (any ideas?) a Western Digital controller (I can't remember the number, but it is a standard card), a PSU, and a little address decoder/interface board. Maybe you have an original Tandy version of that. > Jeff -tony From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Thu Jul 17 05:48:20 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Museums Message-ID: <199707171048.GAA24917@wincom.net> At 01:07 PM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote: >Charles E. Fox wrote: >> >> At 03:09 PM 7/15/97 -0700, you wrote: >> >I have been thinking, probably along with most everyone here, for the >> >past couple of years about how to open a computer museum. The major > >> We have a fellow in my area, Windsor Ontario, who has been trying to >> start a science museum for years. You might consider broadening your area of >> interest to get more public support. > >Has he been actively trying to get one started, and if so, what has been >the major problem? One thing that has been suggested by a couple people >I have talked to is to have displays that include technology developed >by local companies. My feeling so far is that the funding sources will >have a large impact on what is covered. I saw an interesting web site a >couple of days ago, http://www.mysticseaport.org, that has what appears >to be a somewhat self supporting museum going, i.e. no state or federal >monies involved. I find THAT to be most admirable!!! > > The fellow working on the Windsor Ontario science museum is Tom Toth, a retired teacher with political experience. There is also a group trying to promote an aviation museum, (I am a member of that one) and another fellow trying to bring a Canadian navy destroyer to town for a navy museum. The reason for all this interest is that a Windsor resident died and left one million dollars to the city for the establishment of a museum, the only requirement is that it should be named after him. The city finds reasons why all the proposals are unsatisfactory, and collects the interest on the million dollars. I hope someone gets something going soon, because I am not getting any younger and if I fizzle out all my stuff will be going to the dump! Cheers Charlie Fox From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 17 17:16:10 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Advances References: <199707171634_MC2-1B14-F9CB@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <33CE99AA.902@rain.org> Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for the use of computers. Am I missing something? I've heard that one of the early spreadsheets (Visicalc?) was responsible for selling more Apples than any of their marketing efforts. Regardless, that is the type of advance that I am talking about. From william at ans.net Thu Jul 17 17:33:15 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <33CE99AA.902@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707172233.AA03106@interlock.ans.net> > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the > past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are > getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and > whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for > the use of computers. Am I missing something? "Recent" advances would be networking, GUIs, and object-oriented systems. Hmmm...all of these are early seventies Xerox innovations... A continuing series of advancements is occurring in fabrication technologies, perhaps with IBM leading the way (they have always been ahead of everyone else). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:26:03 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:21 2005 Subject: Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970717102312.0098fcd0@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I have the low-profile version of the machine, with no monitor or drives. I > plan on getting the 8050 drives today at noon, if they're still there. > There was also an IEEE-488 printer to go with it. The machine is serial # > C002688... Does anyone know if this is early, or is the C in the SN# mean > the third time around the digits? Also, what was special about the 6509 > processor over the 6502? I doubt it. If it they made 2,000,000 of these I'd have found one by now. Unless they rolled the letter whenever they made a revision or whatnot. > [[ BTW, I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep this one or not... > It seems rather unique, which I like, but I'm not sure if I'd actually use > it, which is something I like to do as well... ]] Well, if you fall off the other side of the fence I'll be there to catch it. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:31:48 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact > Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in > West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's > remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, > technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone > interested in buying Commodore assets?? Yeah, I was going to suggest this. That would be cool! To actually OWN the rights to a computer I loathed growing up would be ironic at worst. Let me know what you find out about this and I would be an interested investor. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Thu Jul 17 19:57:10 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I, too would be a very interested investor if something like the scheme mentioned below could be worked out. Keep my name is mind if anything ever developed on getting these rights. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > > > In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact > > Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in > > West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's > > remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, > > technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone > > interested in buying Commodore assets?? > > Yeah, I was going to suggest this. That would be cool! To actually OWN > the rights to a computer I loathed growing up would be ironic at worst. > > Let me know what you find out about this and I would be an interested > investor. > > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:49:08 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <33CE99AA.902@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the > past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are > getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and > whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for > the use of computers. Am I missing something? I've heard that one of > the early spreadsheets (Visicalc?) was responsible for selling more > Apples than any of their marketing efforts. Regardless, that is the > type of advance that I am talking about. Uh, Windows '95? (har har) Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 17 19:53:47 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <199707172233.AA03106@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > > spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the > > past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are > > getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and > > whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for > > the use of computers. Am I missing something? > > "Recent" advances would be networking, GUIs, and object-oriented systems. > Hmmm...all of these are early seventies Xerox innovations... > > A continuing series of advancements is occurring in fabrication > technologies, perhaps with IBM leading the way (they have always been > ahead of everyone else). I took Marvin's query to be "What has made people want to go out and buy this computer?" Right off the top of my head the stuff like Sony Playstation and Nintendo 64 and other game machines in the last several years fits this bill. When I saw what a Sony Playstation could do, I went out and bought one that week. And incidentally, it brought about $299 worth of entertainment (well, plus the $150 for the three games I bought with it...was it $450 worth of entertainment? No, that's why I stopped buying the overpriced games for it). Let's see, other than the Internet, there's been no reason why someone has run out to a store and plunked down good money for a computer. The Internet is probably the biggest "killer app" that has caused computers to sell. That and DOOM. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jul 17 20:06:56 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances Message-ID: <970717210655_60866636@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-07-17 21:02:45 EDT, you write: true, most everything has been done now. pnp and usb were/are trumpeted as new, but IBM ps/2's and macintoshes have had similar things in that the ps2 was essentialy plug and play after running the reference disk, and macs have the adb which allows things to be chained into the keyboard cable. i'd like to hear of other examples also. i can't think of any more right now. << Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, spreadsheets, and databases, and what has been taking place over the past 15 - 20 years would fall more into a refinement catagory. We are getting faster hardware, more ability (also known as bells and whistles), but no major breakthroughs that open up a whole new field for the use of computers. Am I missing something? I've heard that one of the early spreadsheets (Visicalc?) was responsible for selling more Apples than any of their marketing efforts. Regardless, that is the type of advance that I am talking about. >> david From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 17 11:42:35 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <970717210655_60866636@emout17.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: On 18-Jul-97, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: >true, most everything has been done now. pnp and usb were/are trumpeted as >new, but IBM ps/2's and macintoshes have had similar things in that the ps2 >was essentialy plug and play after running the reference disk, and macs have > the adb which allows things to be chained into the keyboard cable. i'd like >to hear of other examples also. i can't think of any more right now. As has been mentioned in this list before, examples of USB-type setups include the peripheral serial bus on both the Commodore and Atari 8bit lines. These were truly flexible buses, though not the speediest of things. As for the plug&play, that's always been a big feature of the Amiga, long before it became one of the 'in' buzzwords. One could also look at the IEEE-488 bus found on Pet's, Osborne's, and quite a few other computers and pieces of equipment as a predecessor of the USB as well. BTW, could someone tell me the 'proper' way of accessing the mainboard on an Apple /// ? I have a 128k model, likely built in '81 or '82, and the system diagnostics is leading me to think that the memory daughtercard might possibly have worked loose. Jeff Jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Thu Jul 17 21:09:58 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind In-Reply-To: <2942@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> References: <2942@p850ug1.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <33ced026.281697@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:35:17 GMT, you wrote: % %Talking of Tandy stuff, I bought a second-hand Model 4 last weekend. Does %anyone know where to get a Technical Manual for this machine? What I %really need is a list of Supervisor Calls, Docs on the I/O ports, and %a schematics of the CPU board. I believe I have a 'gate array' board - there's %a 40 pin chip with a Tandy custom number next to the Z80A. I'd also be interested in a technical manual for the Model4 since I'm getting one such machine from Jeff H. Ben From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jul 18 00:56:33 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128 series In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > > > In January, with advice of counsel, I made two attempts to contact > > Commodore's US bankruptcy counsel (Commodore had manufacturing operations in > > West Chester and Norristown, PA) to inquire about purchasing Commodore's > > remaining intellectual property (i.e., the rights to the schematics, > > technology, source code, etc.). I never got a response from them. Anyone > > interested in buying Commodore assets?? I think that all the "interesting" stuff (8-bit era) has been either pawned off to smaller companies or just dumpstered. i.e. companies like CMD might have the rights to chip XYZ whereas another small company would own the schematics, etc. The source code went to whoever eventually ended up with the "commodore baggage" whether thats ESCOM, VisCorp, Gateway, or whoever... > Yeah, I was going to suggest this. That would be cool! To actually OWN > the rights to a computer I loathed growing up would be ironic at worst. Little bit easier for me I suppose... I just have to run down to the stock broker and buy a few shares in Apple... ;) > Let me know what you find out about this and I would be an interested > investor. > > Sam Me too! On a sidenote, I once saw an ad for some old shares (worthless of course) in Commodore (for people to hang on their wall, etc.) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From foxnhare at goldrush.com Fri Jul 18 00:26:10 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128, etc... References: <199707170702.AAA05851@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33CEFE72.71EE@goldrush.com> The B-128 did come in a few models, they have been defined by case design (low profile and high profile) some models came with integrated monitors (looked like really advanced PETs, especially with the detached keyboard). The bulk of the information regarding the B-128 was 'loaned' to the Chicago B-128 Users Group by Commodore (wow, that's a change, eh?) a few years back, I have no idea what had ever happened to the group or where the B-128 info now resides. When Amiga Technologies was sold by ESCOM, ESCOM kept the Commodore trademark and name, as the remaining profitable division was the IBM clone division which used the Commodore name and logo to enhance their image (Commodore is a 'good thing' in parts of europe.) It is still under debate exactly where the technology for the 8-bits have ended up, some say ESCOM, some say partly Amiga Technologies... Dunno. Get the 8050 drive, Commodore IEEE-488 dual drives drives were very expansive and are not as abundant as the later serial models. If you need a cable for it (computer to IEEE-488 device or IEEE-488 to IEEE-488), E-mail me, I currently have a source for a few... Larry Anderson P.S. I started work on the PET FAQ, I outlined it and I have quite a bit of stuff to write! -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Thu Jul 17 18:03:56 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Axe to Grind In-Reply-To: <33ced026.281697@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On 18-Jul-97, Benedict Chong wrote: >%Talking of Tandy stuff, I bought a second-hand Model 4 last weekend. >Does >%anyone know where to get a Technical Manual for this machine? What I >%really need is a list of Supervisor Calls, Docs on the I/O ports, and >%a schematics of the CPU board. I believe I have a 'gate array' board >- there's >%a 40 pin chip with a Tandy custom number next to the Z80A. >I'd also be interested in a technical manual for the Model4 since I'm >getting one such machine from Jeff H. The actual Tandy catalog# is 26-2119, and you might even be able to order one from them still. I know you can get a lot of the disks and such yet. I do have one of these, as it's for both the Model 4 and the 4P. If you had specific questions, I could likely look it up and such though. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Fri Jul 18 05:36:36 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: FS/T Old Computer Hardware and Software Message-ID: <199707172335.TAA28541@wincom.net> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems, nospam@see.below.for.real.email (Vacler) wrote: >All this stuff is used unless otherwise noted. I have noted all problems >that I am aware of, but I haven't turned on a lot of this stuff in a >while. So everything is being sold as is. All prices are negotiable(so >make an offer), and don't include shipping. Items marked "---" are >included with the above item, and items marked "T.O." are ones that I'd >rather trade, but if you really want something marked "T.O." make an >offer. I prefer trades to sales. A list of things I'm looking for is at >the bottom. My real email address's are also at the bottom. Feel free to >ask questions. >--------------------------------------- >FOR SALE / TRADE >--------------------------------------- >APPLE >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Apple IIe Platinum $60 >Apple IIe Platinum(bad motherboard) $20 >Apple II+ $30 >Beltron(Apple II clone) $30 >Bell & Howell Apple II(Darth Vader) $60 >Laser 128EX T.O. >Apple II Mouse --- >Laser Power Supply --- >Laser Manuel --- >Apple IIgs(rom 3) T.O. >Apple IIgs Mouse --- >Apple IIgs Keyboard --- >Apple Lisa II w/keyboard(bad power supply) $170 >Macintosh 512K $50 >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Macintosh Plus(4meg ram) T.O. >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Mac 128/512 Plus keyboard --- >Macintosh Plus(4meg ram) T.O. >Mac 128/512 Plus Mouse --- >Mac 128/512 Plus keyboard --- >Macintosh Portable w/carry case T.O. >Macintosh SE(bad analog board) $40 >Apple II Joy Stick $10 >Apple ImageWriter I Printer $45 >Apple ImageWriter II Printer $60 >Apple Monochrome Monitor $30 >Apple II 51/4 disk drive $20 >Apple II 51/4 disk drive $20 >Apple II 31/2 disk drive $30 >Apple II 31/2 disk drive $30 >Mac 128/512 Plus 31/2 Disk Drive $30 >SSB-Apple Voice Synthesis Board $20 >Several unknown Apple II cards $15 >Software: >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program (NEW) $6 >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program (NEW) $6 >Apple II Calmpute Biofeedback Stress Reduction Program $5 >--------------------------------------- >ATARI >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Atari Video Pinball model C-380 $25 >Atari Video Computer System 2600 black w/fake wood trim $25 >Atari Joy Stick X2 $10 >Atari Game Paddles X2 $10 >Software: >Atari Space Invaders $5 >Atari Star Raiders $5 >Atari Warlords $5 >Atari Donkey Kong $5 >Atari ET $5 >Atari Street Racer $5 >Atari Qbert $5 >Atari Sea Quest $5 >Atari Breakout $5 >Atari Cosmic Ark $5 >Atari Raiders of the Lost Ark $5 >Atari Pac Man $5 >Atari Football $5 >Atari Telegames $5 >Atari Brain Games $5 >Atari Donkey Kong $5 >Atari Bridge $5 >Atari Qbert $5 >--------------------------------------- >COMMODORE >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Commodore SuperPET SP9000 T.O. >Commodore Plus/4 in original box w/power supply and manual $40 >Commodore 64 (for parts) $15 >Commodore 64 (for parts) $15 >Commodore 64C w/power supply $35 >Commodore SX64 T.O. >Commodore 128 w/power supply T.O. >Commodore VIC-20 w/power supply >T.O. >VIC-1541 Disk Drive $20 >C64 1541 Disk Drive $20 >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive $30 >Commodore 1571 Disk Drive $30 >Amiga 31/2 Disk Drive $35 >Amiga 1000 (w/signatures in case) T.O. >Amiga Keyboard --- >Amiga Mouse --- >Amiga 31/2 Disk Drive $35 >Amiga Pin $5 >C64 Modem $10 >C64 HesModem II $15 >C64 Joy Stick $15 >Commodore 1701 Monitor $35 >Commodore Cassette player $10 >Commodore MPS 803 Printer $30 >VIC-20 ram cartridge $10 >Software: >C64 Business Systems $5 >C128 Swift Calc $5 >C128 Word Writer $5 >C128 Data Management $5 >C64 Omniwriter & Omnispell (NEW) $7 >C64 Project Space Station (NEW) $7 >C64 Project Space Station $7 >C64 Graphics Basic (NEW) $7 >C64 Graphics Basic (NEW) $7 >C128 Ghost Writer $5 >C64 Forth $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >C64 Rootin Tootin $5 >--------------------------------------- >Tandy / Radio Shack >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >TRS-80 I w/monitor and printer $45 >TRS-80 Color Computer I T.O. >TRS-80 Color Computer II $20 >TRS-80 Joystick $10 >Software: >TRS-80 Color Script $5 >TRS-80 Color Baseball $5 >TRS-80 Pooyan $5 >TRS-80 Mega-Bug $5 >TRS-80 Dungeons of Daggorath $5 >--------------------------------------- >Other >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >Texas Instruments TI-99/4A CPU(Silver & Black) $20 >Super Nintendo System w/2 controllers $40 >Sega Genesis w/3 controllers $40 >Kaypro I $35 >Kaypro II $45 >Software: >Genesis Shining Force $15 >Genesis Shining in the Darkness $10 >Genesis Game Genie $10 >SNES Secret of Mana $17 >SNES Secret of Evermore $17 >SNES Game Genie $10 >SNES Super Mario World $10 >SNES Mario All Stars $15 >--------------------------------------- >WANTED >--------------------------------------- >Hardware: >IBM 5100 >TRS-80 Model 100 >Acorn Archimedes 3xx-4xx >Atari 520STm or 520STfm >Apple Macintosh 128k >VGA Monitor >Mac IIfx Memory >External Macintosh CD-Rom Drive >--------------------------------------- >Loren Everly >everly@interpac.net >vacler@hotmail.com >http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/7533/ >--------------------------------------- From manney at nwohio.com Fri Jul 18 07:28:39 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances Message-ID: <199707181242.FAA12561@mx2.u.washington.edu> Most of my customers are interested in solitaire, Internet and scanners...and you know? I may be wrong, but I see a *lot* of people trying the interned for a couple of months, then letting the subscription lapse. We have millions of potential newbies to work through, but what's it gonna be like in 10 years? How many dust-covered chess-playing machines do you see around? Electronic keyboards? Cuisinarts? I think we're seeing a fad. Killer app? There hasn't been one since multimedia stuff for IBM I mean..) You're right -- we've been refining (and good refinements the've been, some of them! -- I'll take Corel 7 over DOS MS Paint any day). Next killer app? Dunno. Voice recognition? From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 18 08:02:29 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals (was Axe to Grind) Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 21:35:17 GMT ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>Have you tried Tandy/Radio Shack National Parts? At one time they sold service >>manuals for all their computer stuff, and such manuals almost always contained >>schematics/data on the 'bought-in' parts -- things like PSUs, drives, monitors, >> They still have lots of parts/info. Last week, I ordered the service manual for the Tandy Model 1 Expansion Interface. In 3 days, I got the *original* manual, not a copy of one that was used in a R/S repair center. In the past, I've ordered system diskettes for my Model 100 from the National Parts Software group (Tandy Software, I think, and a different telephone number, too). So, it's clear that they are continuing to support these old machines. From rcini at msn.com Fri Jul 18 08:02:20 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares (was Commodore B-128) Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:56:33 Mr. Self Destruct wrote: >>Me too! On a sidenote, I once saw an ad for some old shares (worthless of >>course) in Commodore (for people to hang on their wall, etc.) If you come across this ad again, I'd be interested. Also, to those who have expressed a passing interest in the remote idea of acquiring any leftover Commodore intangible assets {assuming that (1) we can find out who has them and (2) they want only peanuts for them}, I'll be contacting my attorney today to have him get an update from the US Bankruptcy Court. Maybe we can trace what happened after ESCOM went bankrupt last July. My idea would be to acquire the rights to the source code for the ROMs, the schematics for their machines, IC masks for any custom chips, PC board artwork, engineering diagrams, manuals, and service/technical information. That's it. I don't want any inventory (which by now, I'm sure, has been dumped) or tooling. I'm up in the air about trademarks, though (I know that "Commodore" is gone, but the others like VIC, C-64, and PET may still be available). As far as any licenses that Commodore may have had (for games written by third-parties and sold under the Commodore name, for example), I don't necessarily care. Commodore's machines were developed in-house with MOS/CSG parts, so they were owned by the same company ultimately. At worst, we'd need the IC masks for any custom chips (VIC, VIC-II, SID). Sounds like the beginnings of a business case... ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From starling at umr.edu Fri Jul 18 10:09:19 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Jul 18, 97 01:02:20 pm Message-ID: <199707181509.KAA00194@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > My idea would be to acquire the rights to the source code for the ROMs, > schematics for their machines, IC masks for any custom chips, PC board > artwork, engineering diagrams, manuals, and service/technical information. > That's it. I don't want any inventory (which by now, I'm sure, has been > dumped) or tooling. I'm up in the air about trademarks, though (I know that > "Commodore" is gone, but the others like VIC, C-64, and PET may still be > available). Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? I could see purchasing the rights to the C=64 and setting them free as public domain. Perhaps raise the money to do it by selling "shares" of ownership in the rights to C= enthusiasts. That way, emulators can use original C= ROM code without copyright infringement, and "Build Your Own Commie 64" kits could be a possibility. Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd belong to the computing community. I don't see much of a point to owning the rights to such things in a for-proffit mode. Except maybe just bragging rights... "Hey, baby... I own the exclusive rights to manufacture the Commodore Plus 4. Want to go back to my place for a drink?" "Get away from me you creep! My man owns the rights to the Commodore 16!" - starling From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 18 10:52:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: FS/T Old Computer Hardware and Software In-Reply-To: <199707172335.TAA28541@wincom.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Charles E. Fox wrote: > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.systems, nospam@see.below.for.real.email > (Vacler) wrote: > > >All this stuff is used unless otherwise noted. I have noted all problems > >that I am aware of, but I haven't turned on a lot of this stuff in a > >while. So everything is being sold as is. All prices are negotiable(so > >make an offer), and don't include shipping. Items marked "---" are > >included with the above item, and items marked "T.O." are ones that I'd > >rather trade, but if you really want something marked "T.O." make an > >offer. I prefer trades to sales. A list of things I'm looking for is at > >the bottom. My real email address's are also at the bottom. Feel free to > >ask questions. A lot of the prices this guy is asking for stuff is a joke. $5 per carthridge? $20 for a //e with a bad motherboard? The only stuff that seems reasonable is the stuff he probably knows about. There are a few good deals in there. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 18 11:06:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: <199707181242.FAA12561@mx2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > Most of my customers are interested in solitaire, Internet and > scanners...and you know? I may be wrong, but I see a *lot* of people trying > the interned for a couple of months, then letting the subscription lapse. Doesn't surprise me. The Internet is over-rated. Now, I'm not saying the internet is useless, just over-rated. It tends to get played-up like a miracle cure and then when people finally get a taste of it they wonder, "Where's the beef?" > We have millions of potential newbies to work through, but what's it gonna > be like in 10 years? How many dust-covered chess-playing machines do you > see around? Electronic keyboards? Cuisinarts? I think we're seeing a fad. Um, the Internet is not a fad. The Internet is the new paradigm for business and society. The Internet is, perhaps not a quantum leap, but it is a humongous leap for mankind. A fad? Hardly. > Next killer app? Dunno. Voice recognition? Yes. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From classicjr at juno.com Fri Jul 18 11:29:33 1997 From: classicjr at juno.com (J, G. Rottman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 70 References: <199706010702.AAA15184@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <19970718.112543.12711.0.classicjr@juno.com> I am not getting any more messages! Please change my receiving address to: rottman@worldnet.att.net Thanks everyone! From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Fri Jul 18 12:14:15 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > Um, the Internet is not a fad. The Internet is the new paradigm for > business and society. The Internet is, perhaps not a quantum leap, but > it is a humongous leap for mankind. A fad? Hardly. Although I think describing the Internet with the word "fad" *might* be a bit harsh, I think it *Might* lose it's luster pretty soon. It IS good for the information gathering/distributing type of thing but a lot of the Internet is just crap. Kinda like TV "'cept different" Pretty soon, we might be able to call it TV-2... > > Next killer app? Dunno. Voice recognition? > > Yes. How bout something that'll brew yer coffee for you in the morning, do the wash, scrub the toilet, walk the dog, etc. Then we won't have ANY responsibilities and we could all stay holed up in our houses all the time. (Just kidding) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 18 12:38:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances References: Message-ID: <33CFAA02.37A5@rain.org> > On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Somehow, it seems like most of the major breakthroughs/advances in the > > > use of computers took place early on, i.e. word processing, > > I took Marvin's query to be "What has made people want to go out and buy > this computer?" Right off the top of my head the stuff like Sony You took it pretty much how I meant it. Except for speed, graphics, and most importantly to "keep up with the Jones," there is no good technical reason the classics we are talking about are not perfectly acceptable for most applications. The internet has been mentioned as a major advancement, and it is in the sense people might buy a computer just for the e-mail capabilities. The FAX machine falls in that catagory. I don't think voice recognition by itself would be a reason to get a computer. I guess there would be a few other reasons not to use the classics. 1) the lack of new software applications being written and/or upgraded for the classic, 2) the lack of a standard platform to transfer software between machines. I think THAT is probably the major contribution of IBM to the widespread use of computers. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 18 12:48:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari still around? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this? Thanks, CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 18 12:48:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > > Um, the Internet is not a fad. The Internet is the new paradigm for > > business and society. The Internet is, perhaps not a quantum leap, but > > it is a humongous leap for mankind. A fad? Hardly. > > Although I think describing the Internet with the word "fad" *might* be a > bit harsh, I think it *Might* lose it's luster pretty soon. It IS good > for the information gathering/distributing type of thing but a lot of the > Internet is just crap. Kinda like TV "'cept different" When I first got onto the net, the first thing I found out was that it is most useful for e-mail. I tried IRC, I tried Usenet, I tried a couple other things, and eventually I found myself paying $19.95 a month for e-mail. I don't think that is much value. Maybe $20 a year would have been worth it, but not per month. For probably 18 months all I had was text-based access. I finally upgraded to a PPP account a few months ago, and was expecting to see all sorts of cool stuff. I wasn't disappointed in that respect...I did see lots of cool stuff. Was it worth the $24.95 a month I now had to pay? No. Maybe, again $25 a year. But all in all I find the Internet to be EXTREMELY valuable. Where else can I go to find 200 zealots who collect classic computers to get information about a particularly obscure piece of hardware and get an answer to my questions usually within 24 hours? I can get technical documentation for the stuff I use at work, including application notes, hardware references, troubleshooting information, etc. whenever I want, 24 hours a day, and I don't have to wait on hold for 30 minutes to an hour, and its free. Sure I would prefer to talk to some live dolt, simply because its easier to just have the answer given to me rather than having to search it out, and my time is better spent doing work rather than scrounging around for information, although admittedly the on-hold wait and the time I would spend searching out the info I need is a wash. I can buy/sell stuff on the net and have a world-wide marketbase. I can do this by paying $24.95 a month. Try doing that before the Internet became a viable public medium. You'd have to be a large corporation or have lots of money. I can send data, programs, pictures, basically information to colleagues anywhere in the world practically and do it simply by just e-mailing it to them. Before this would require one side to have a BBS or both parties to schedule a time to connect to each other with modems to do the exchange. I can dig up information on zip codes, find maps to places I need to go, find restaurants, find people, getting shipping costs for packages I send out, I can e-mail a diatribe to the President of the United States of America. Basically, it is truly information at your fingertips (almost) instantly. Constantly updated, constantly growing, alive. I just realized this has practically nothing to do with classic computers and I apologize. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From idavis at comland.com Fri Jul 18 13:26:33 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19970718182633.00903ac0@mail.comland.com > At 12:48 PM 7/18/97 -0500, Cord Coslor wrote: >Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really >not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of >old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 >software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari >disutibutors that do this? > >Thanks, > >CORD > There are a number of businesses still selling atari stuff. As far as the company is concerned, only the coin-op still remains under the Atari name. Check out www.myatari.com or email Rick Detlefsen (74766.1561@CompuServe.COM). They both have a pretty good selection, and I know Rick is pretty cheap. I work about 5 mins from his place, and it makes a wonderful lunch to go over there and browse through all of his stuff, and pick up goodies. The atari vendor and developer faq is at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/atari-8-bit/vendev/ If you can't get to it, I might be able to round up a copy and email it. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw out that old computer, idavis@comland.com | check out the Classic Computer Rescue List - indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 18 13:55:15 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore B-128, etc... Message-ID: <199707181455_MC2-1B1F-D99A@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu > The bulk of the information regarding the B-128 was 'loaned' to the Chicago B-128 Users Group by Commodore (wow, that's a change, eh?) a few years back, I have no idea what had ever happened to the group or where the B-128 info now resides.< Yes, that was quite a deal. The Chicago group seems to have showed up on Commodore's doorstep just as Commodore was getting ready to trash all the B series stuff, and the user group ended up with it all. I wasn't aware it was a "loan", but I guess at this point, nobody is going to show up on their doorstep and ask for it back. If only the rest of the Commodore user group community had showed such drive; we might not KNOW where the rights to the 8-bit stuff ended up, but also we might collectively have owned them! I don't know what happened to the group either. In 1990, before I got a B-128, I wrote and got info, and directed to them everyone I ran across that had a B-series question. Then I wrote in early 1993 to check in on the progress of the group for a newsletter article, and got nothing-- no returned letter, no response. I wrote a second letter a few months later (in case the Chicago post office had lost the first) and still got nothing. I tried again after I got my B-128, and again, nothing. I think basically the "group" was one guy in Chicago and a number of out of town members, domestically and internationally. I suspect as interest in the B series waned, the guy got tired of it and just quit. Still, upon receiving inquiries he might at least have sent out thanks-for-your-letter-but-the-group-doesn't-exist-any-more responses. Postage couldn't have been THAT much. Course, he may have gotten hit by a beer truck, for all I know. (Address was 4102 N. Odell, Norridge, IL. 60635; I probably have the head guy's name somewhere.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 18 14:17:00 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: <199707181517_MC2-1B22-4CEE@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this?< Atari was purchased by someone else and dissolved as an independent company. No clue if the successors have any inventory, but I suspect I know where their leftover cartridges went. An outfit called O'Shea, Ltd. has one million, three hundred thousand atari video game cartridges (!), and is selling them for 80 cents apiece. They claim they have 50 different titles, but I only see about 40 listed; pretty evenly divided between 7800 series cartridges and 2600 cartridges. These people seem to sell mostly in bulk (most of their different items are available only by the case), but there's no such notation with respect to the Atari cartridges. I've never done business with them, and I frankly don't know what they'd do if you asked for (say) one copy each of ten different titles. But might be worth a try if you want to round out your Atari cartridge collection. One the internet, they're at http://www.oshealtd.com/ E-mail is billh@oshealtd.com Phone is 816-531-1177 Address is on West 47th Street in Kansas City. and I'm at Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Fri Jul 18 14:57:22 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals (was Axe to Grind) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d0ca5c.528600@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Fri, 18 Jul 97 13:02:29 UT, you wrote: % % In the US, call 1-800-THE-SHACK and give them the catalog number and describe %the part. Unfortunately, neither Radio Shack's nor Tandy's Web site has this %parts availability information (at least I couldn't find it). Have a credit %card handy. Where can we get a list of catalog numbers of the various products for the various models. I'm waiting for my M4 and wouold like to have at least some technical manuals (so that I can rip apart the machine). Ben From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Fri Jul 18 15:43:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! Mike ---------- From: Cord Coslor To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Atari still around? Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:48PM Does anyone know if Atari is still around? I remember years ago (really not TOO long ago) I wrote to them and they sent me a pretty huge list of old Atari 2600, etc., games still available, as well as old Atari 400/800 software they still had around. Does anyone know if there are still Atari disutibutors that do this? Thanks, CORD //*===================================================================== ++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================* // From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Fri Jul 18 12:00:10 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari still around? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707182100.RAA26691@mail.cgocable.net> I had to jump in! :) Mike, are you talking about the Tandon as in "Tandem"? :) Is that person who now owns this JTS is american or not? I still waiting to see how good JTS are or still junk. I knew Tandon drives used to be reasonably good drive but WD jumped in and screwed it. Thanks. Jason D. > Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. > Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who > used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI > INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! > Mike From jrice at texoma.net Fri Jul 18 16:06:19 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals (was Axe to Grind) References: <33d0ca5c.528600@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <33CFDACA.B92F8E46@texoma.net> Benedict Chong wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 97 13:02:29 UT, you wrote: > > % > % In the US, call 1-800-THE-SHACK and give them the catalog > number and describe > %the part. Unfortunately, neither Radio Shack's nor Tandy's Web site > has this > %parts availability information (at least I couldn't find it). Have a > credit > %card handy. > > Where can we get a list of catalog numbers of the various products for > > the various models. I'm waiting for my M4 and wouold like to have at > least some technical manuals (so that I can rip apart the machine). > > Ben Send a e-mail to Tandy customer service. You can get the address from www.support.tandy.com and ask them for a catalog number listing. I did and got a very complete list for the M100. James From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 18 16:23:09 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals Message-ID: <199707182123.AA12233@world.std.com> A while back I offerd up a very complete set of docs(and extras) for the TRS80 m1/EI and very likely I'd take less than tandy would. Allison From danjo at xnet.com Fri Jul 18 19:00:10 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Dan and Joanne Tucker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: SPARCStation 1 mb/chassis/ps Message-ID: <199707190000.TAA04431@xnet.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 677 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970718/3112aaaf/attachment-0001.ksh From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 18 20:54:52 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger help!?!?! In-Reply-To: <199707190000.TAA04431@xnet.com> Message-ID: I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" -- I think these are the three common types of loading procedures. I am sure this tape is machine language, and am wondering if there are some special loading procedures for machine language, or this Frogger tape in particular. I have been successful in loading the other tapes with it, which are BASIC programs. On Frogger, I get the proper 'beeps' back that it is reading the tape and then errors that the manual says are bus and serial inteference that the tape may be faulty. I am wondering if this might also be due to an inproper loading procedure. Can any of you help me out!! Thanks in advance! CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From marvin at rain.org Fri Jul 18 22:01:43 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger help!?!?! References: Message-ID: <33D02E17.27B1@rain.org> Cord Coslor wrote: > > I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of > Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some > problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the > manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get > errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" > A quick look at one of the Atari books indicates that after using the correct load type (sometimes determined from trial and error!), the speaker should beep once. After that, press play on the cassette recorder and again press enter. At that point, the cassette should start to load and you should be able to hear the data through your TV speaker. According to one of the cassette programs I have, if you have trouble loading the first program on the cassette, rewind the cassette all the way. Set the cassette counter to 000, then fast forward to 002 or 003 and CLOAD from that point. I suspect the idea behind the above procedure is to get past the tape leader before trying to CLOAD. I might add the cassette those instructions came from is PDI's "Word Search: Geography (Atari Basic)." Any errors at this point would probably point to a damaged tape or tape drive. From idavis at comland.com Fri Jul 18 22:11:00 1997 From: idavis at comland.com (Isaac Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger help!?!?! Message-ID: <199707190311.WAA28291@ds9.comland.com> At 08:54 PM 7/18/97 -0500, you wrote: >I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of >Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some >problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the >manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get >errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" >-- I think these are the three common types of loading procedures. I am >sure this tape is machine language, and am wondering if there are some Cord, Take the Basic cartridge out, and hold the Start button down when turning the machine on. This will give the beep to hit play on the cassette player, then hit enter and it will load. This is how you load a machine language program on the atari from cassette. Hope this helps. Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the idavis@comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Fri Jul 18 22:42:37 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari 400 Frogger... Isaac: In-Reply-To: <199707190311.WAA28291@ds9.comland.com> Message-ID: Isaac: Thanks a ton for your help on the Frogger cassette for the Atari 400. I sure appreciate it and just wanted the others to know as well. Thanks also to Marvin who replied with some tips as well. Thanks guys, I really appreciate it. To the others, sorry for the space take-up, but I just want to reiterate that we shouldn't take this group for granted. Being a part of this really is a privelege!! I mean that, because where else can you ask both very technical and simple questions, and receive a reply from at least two or three people in half and hour or less? In the future, I recommend sending private e-mail to those that respond to your questions giving thanks. So often I receive and aswer to a question, print it out, and go on to my next e-mail message... and don't ever let the sender even know I received his help, or appreciated it. Anyway, thanks to everyone out there!! CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Isaac Davis wrote: > At 08:54 PM 7/18/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I recently picked up an Atari 400 computer... and have the version of > >Sega's Frogger for it. It's on cassette tape, and I am having some > >problems loading it. I know some loading commands from a quick look at the > >manual, but am still not able to get the tape loaded. I eventually get > >errors using three different load types: CLOAD, ENTER "C:", and LOAD "C:" > >-- I think these are the three common types of loading procedures. I am > >sure this tape is machine language, and am wondering if there are some > Cord, > Take the Basic cartridge out, and hold the Start button down when > turning the machine on. This will give the beep to hit play on the cassette > player, then hit enter and it will load. This is how you load a machine > language program on the atari from cassette. Hope this helps. > Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the > idavis@comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List > indavis@juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html > > From ampage at geocities.com Fri Jul 18 23:07:49 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Atari still around? References: Message-ID: <33D03D95.58701B03@geocities.com> Sure Atari is still around. It was split into two seperate companies in 1984: Atari Games ( http://www.atarigames.com ) makes the coin-op games and Atari Corp. ( http://www.atari.com ) makes the home stuff. Atari Corp. recently merged with JTS. As for who "owns" JTS, It is traded on the AMEX with 60% of its shares on the market, so no one has a majority. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jul 19 09:09:15 1997 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> i enjoy reading what others have acquired over the weekends so i thought i might add mine also. there was a hamfest saturday morning so i went and picked up a 30meg rll drive; a copy ][ pc option board which seems to copy just about anything. is that correct? the laugh of the day was some guy selling an apple ][+ with two drives, joystick and box of software for $300 i think i had met this guy before at a previous hamfest; claiming to have known steve wozniak personally and did blue boxing with the steves! yea, right! i think that's the same ][+ he was trying to sell then. i also picked up something called a mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the aquarius would be welcome. david From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sat Jul 19 10:20:30 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: That "Thing" in my garage Message-ID: <199707191520.LAA19818@wincom.net> Spring having arrived here in the wilds of Canada, I moved some stuff and got close enough to that thing I was given last fall to read the labels on it. The box is a little bigger than a legal two drawer filing cabinet, and weighs a couple of hundred pounds. There are three tags with "M.A.I. Basic 4 Information Systems, each with a different model number... #9152 upgrade, # 610, and #1321. There is also a tag saying that in event of power failure the batteries are good for four hours! The cabinet contains a backplane and several plug-in boards. Does annyone have any idea of what this is? Cheers Charlie Fox From manney at nwohio.com Sat Jul 19 12:50:06 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Computer Advances Message-ID: <199707191816.LAA15369@mx2.u.washington.edu> > When I first got onto the net, the first thing I found out was that it is > most useful for e-mail. That's about all I use it for, except looking for people who sell oddball parts. I tried IRC, I tried Usenet, Usenet I use, for classified ads. I tried a couple > other things, and eventually I found myself paying $19.95 a month for > e-mail. btw, My ISP will sell time (so many hours) which will carry over from month to month. $30 will buy 30 hours, which lasts a *long* time with an offline e-mail reader. Some charge, say $7/month for e-mail only. Ask. > But all in all I find the Internet to be EXTREMELY valuable. Where else > can I go to find 200 zealots who collect classic computers to get > information about a particularly obscure piece of hardware and get an > answer to my questions usually within 24 hours? > I can e-mail a diatribe to the President of the United States of America. ...and get put on the FBI's secret list. > Basically, it is truly information at your fingertips (almost) instantly. > Constantly updated, constantly growing, alive. Sure. For me, too. But how many newbies want -- or need -- all that info, or want to acquire the necessary skills? I think, after visiting the Lego page, nakedgirls.com and looking at trucks, many users cast the internet aside with the rest of their toys (and that was my point). Businesses, however -- such as mine -- find a real use for the communications / information. From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Sat Jul 19 14:22:55 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: That "Thing" in my garage In-Reply-To: <199707191520.LAA19818@wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at Jul 19, 97 11:20:30 am Message-ID: <9707191822.AA25939@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1000 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970719/021edbd4/attachment-0001.ksh From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sat Jul 19 14:04:35 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: That "Thing" in my garage Message-ID: <199707191904.PAA06205@wincom.net> At 11:22 AM 7/19/97 -0800, you wrote: >> Spring having arrived here in the wilds of Canada, I moved some >> stuff and got close enough to that thing I was given last fall to read the >> labels on it. The box is a little bigger than a legal two drawer filing >> cabinet, and weighs a couple of hundred pounds. There are three tags with >> "M.A.I. Basic 4 Information Systems, each with a different model number... >> #9152 upgrade, # 610, and #1321. There is also a tag saying that in event of >> power failure the batteries are good for four hours! >> The cabinet contains a backplane and several plug-in boards. >> Does annyone have any idea of what this is? > >It sounds like you've got the main hunk of a Basic 4 system there. >These are minicomputers that were sold with special-purpose software >- accounting, doctor's office, etc. - for small business environments. > >Is it possible that there's a hard drive (likely 8" or 10.5") somewhere >in the box? Any tape drive? How many DB-25's on the back for terminals? > >Tim. > > There are 16 db-25's on the back, also two drives about the same size as the computer, the only one with a manufacturers label is Century Data Systems, Model T-80A. It came from a municipal office. When the fellow said he had got a new computer and asked if I wanted the old one, I thought he meant something like an XT! Next time I will ask. There was also a Calcomp 1041 plotter, which runs the test plot, but so far refuses to talk to my 386. Cheers Charlie Fox From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sat Jul 19 15:02:38 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Apple /// problem Message-ID: <199707192002.QAA14391@unix.aardvarkol.com> Would anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing a problem with my Apple ///...it does the following: 1) the only disks it will boot are the disks for the Apple ][+ emulation, the CP/M 2.2 diskette for the Softcard ///, and the 'Apple /// Dealer Diagnostic' diskette. All other diskettes give a blank screen, though I have two full sets of the Apple /// systems disks. 2) The diagnostic diskette keeps reporting a RAM Map failure when I try to run a RAM test, on either the 5V or 12V settings, and it then asks me for the amount of RAM in the machine. No matter which choice I've given, it just goes back to the same error. As far as I know, it is a 128k machine with the RAM daughtercard below the keyboard. The amount of RAM was gotten from the factory sticker next to the PSU on the bottom of the machine. 3) Of the diskettes that will boot, once booted, the machine runs fine, including being able to boot Apple ][ DOS 3.3 and being able to run Wordstar under CP/M 2.2. Any help someone can provide as to trouble shooting this would be greatly appreciated since my experience with Apple machines is quite limited. The machine has a Monitor ///, Disk II for the Apple ///, Softcard ///, and a Silentype printer. It would appear that Apple at least did some kind of work on the machine at one point as it has an extended warranty sticker on the bottom from Apple, with the additional 1 year ending on 08/06/83. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sat Jul 19 16:35:20 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Apple /// problem In-Reply-To: <199707192002.QAA14391@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <199707200135.VAA19855@mail.cgocable.net> Hi Jeff! The apple will give you problems unless you fix that memory problem. I think the cover takes off from bottom to expose the board, push all socketed chips. That will make a crunching sound. Take off the memory daughter board and check to see if these memory chips are socketed as well as motherboard's memory. 64k x 1bit chips are so cheap and plentiful, get them in matched set, no need to be apple marked. :) 200ns is fine! :) Maybe the bad memory gives problems with the CP/M side. Not sure... I have only seen /// once in person and I did not use it. Heard that case is impossible heavy! Jason D. Big snip! > Would anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing a problem > with my Apple ///...it does the following: > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ampage at geocities.com Sat Jul 19 20:32:13 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares (was Commodore B-128) References: Message-ID: <33D16A9D.70EAB05A@geocities.com> What was left of Escom was consolidated under the name Commodore. Commodore is now a Dutch computer company ( http://www.commodore.net ) and probably owns the righsts to all the 8-bit stuff. From BNICALEK at aol.com Sat Jul 19 22:12:53 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: How Do I Unsubscribe? Message-ID: <970719231006_1691695289@emout02.mail.aol.com> I would like to unsubscribe and transfer to another e-mail address. How do I do this? Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From MicroAge97 at aol.com Sat Jul 19 23:42:57 1997 From: MicroAge97 at aol.com (MicroAge97@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: Apple /// problem Message-ID: <970720004255_-1878507983@emout05.mail.aol.com> My friend's apple /// has the same problem. i had to have a chip replaced several times. now it broke again but it's been so long that no tech will touch it. dave From dlw at neosoft.com Sat Jul 19 18:51:18 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions In-Reply-To: <199707181517_MC2-1B22-4CEE@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <199707200449.XAA26425@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, LDOS or some other and a comm program? Thanks. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sun Jul 20 08:02:37 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions Message-ID: <199707201302.JAA22377@wincom.net> At 11:51 PM 7/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It >works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the >other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another >time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up >and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the >problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and >then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them >so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette >based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have >to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm >thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a >lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. >Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, >LDOS or some other and a comm program? > >Thanks. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@neosoft.com >http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > > When I turned on my Model 4 with no disks I got "CASSETTE?" on the screen. The lower drive light stays on. Have you checked to see if brightness is turned up on the monitor? Cheers Charlie Fox From foxvideo at mail.wincom.net Sun Jul 20 08:25:46 1997 From: foxvideo at mail.wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions Message-ID: <199707201325.JAA23633@wincom.net> At 11:51 PM 7/19/97 +0000, you wrote: >A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It >works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the >other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another >time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up >and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the >problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and >then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them >so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette >based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have >to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm >thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a >lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. >Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, >LDOS or some other and a comm program? > >Thanks. > >----- >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@neosoft.com >http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > > CORRECTION..... Apparently I engaged my keyboard before my brain was in gear! When I turn on my Model 4 without a disk installed I get "DISKETTE?" on the screen. Sorry about that. From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sun Jul 20 10:33:07 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions In-Reply-To: <199707200449.XAA26425@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: David: To boot a disk based system without the drives... after you turn the system on, press reset and hold drean BREAK.... it'll then boot in cassette mode. I certainly can help you out with any DOSs or software you might need. Just let me know and we'll work something out. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, David Williams wrote: > A while back I picked up a TRS-80 Model 3 without disk drives. It > works fine and I've been on the prowl for drives for it. Well, the > other day while picking up some PDP-8 stuff (questions for another > time), the guy gave me 2 Model 3s with drives. I've cleaned them up > and checked them out and finally powered them on. Now this is the > problem. They come on and the lower drive (drive 0?) lights up and > then stops and the screen stays blank. I don't have a DOS for them > so my question is, should these boot up without it as my cassette > based 3 does, giving me the Cassette? and RAM? questions or do I have > to get TRSDOS or one of the others. If these systems are bad, I'm > thinking of moving the drives to my cassette system. Looks like a > lot of boards to move, assuming the drives and controller are ok. > Comments? Also, can someone help out with a copy of TRSDOS, NewDOS, > LDOS or some other and a comm program? > > Thanks. > > ----- > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@neosoft.com > http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw > From dlw at neosoft.com Sun Jul 20 06:33:20 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:22 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III Questions In-Reply-To: References: <199707200449.XAA26425@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Message-ID: <199707201631.LAA11383@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 20 Jul 97 at 10:33, Cord Coslor wrote: > To boot a disk based system without the drives... after you turn the > system on, press reset and hold drean BREAK.... it'll then boot in > cassette mode. Thanks! Works great. Well, one of the two systems does anyway. Both come up with the Cass? question but the monitor on one of the machines looks like the sync is off, Cass? is repeated in 3 or 4 places down the screen as is everything else it displays. I have the box open but don't see anything wrong or anything to adjust. Anyone know these and have suggestions? This box is a green screen where the other working systems are black and white, so I'd like to get this one working properly. I picked these up from a guy who had a stack of them which he wanted to turn into aquariums! They were free since he felt they were historically unimportant in the Tandy timeline. I just want to say thinks to everyone for their help. This list is invaluable in keeping my systems running! ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From cdenham at tgis.co.uk Sun Jul 20 15:26:57 1997 From: cdenham at tgis.co.uk (Christopher Denham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> References: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <33d370d2.6345954@mail.tgis.co.uk> On Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:09:15 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >i enjoy reading what others have acquired over the weekends so i thought i >might add mine also. > >there was a hamfest saturday morning so i went and picked up a 30meg rll >drive; a copy ][ pc option board which seems to copy just about anything. is >that correct? the laugh of the day was some guy selling an apple ][+ with two >drives, joystick and box of software for $300 i think i had met this >guy before at a previous hamfest; claiming to have known steve wozniak >personally and did blue boxing with the steves! yea, right! i think that's >the same ][+ he was trying to sell then. i also picked up something called a >mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were >intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the >aquarius would be welcome. > > >david > I also went to a hamfest but in the UK we call them radio rally's and picked up a MEMOTECH MTX512 with book for 1.50 pounds , a AMSTRAD 6128 also for 1.50 pounds ( wanted for the disk drive ) a SPECTRUM +3 for 5.00 pounds (wanted also for the disk drive ) but its all boxed and like new so to good to break up for bits a DRAGON 32 for free also boxed . But the prize find was a ZX80 with manual , building instructions and a few ZX80 news ( The newsletter for the ZX80 user club ) still got the blue keyboard and 4K rom all for 27.50 pounds .... cheers Chris Denham G4VLL From chemif at mbox.queen.it Sun Jul 20 15:45:44 1997 From: chemif at mbox.queen.it (Riccardo Romagnoli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: USING classic chips (was Re: USING classic machines) Message-ID: <199707202045.WAA11997@mbox.queen.it> At 13:24 28/06/97 -0400, you wrote: >> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, someone wrote: > Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based >hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk >hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a >personal preferance. If interested in such family of CPU's and want to use them as preference, be informed that Motorola use a 68k chip inside its GSM cellular phones (like 7000's and 8000's) I found this info on http://www.ibt.dk/morten/friends/hardware.htm Ciao! ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sun Jul 20 16:44:52 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: weekend additions In-Reply-To: <33d370d2.6345954@mail.tgis.co.uk> References: <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> <970719100914_2058715527@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970720224452.00699a00@post.keme.co.uk> I didnt do to bad. Got a C128d Plastic for 4 Pounds, A Cambridge Menmory Calculator (Sinclair) 50p, Jupter Ace 1.50, and a few C64 and Plus 4 carts. Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From rcini at msn.com Sun Jul 20 17:28:30 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Tandy Service Manuals Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:57:22 GMT Benedict Chong wrote: >>Where can we get a list of catalog numbers of the various products for the various models. I'm waiting for my M4 and wouold like to have at least some technical manuals (so that I can rip apart the machine).<< I don't think that the master book in the Radio Shack store has a description of the product next to the catalog number. You would need a kind sole here with an old R/S catalog to give you the number. You could also ask the operator on 1-800-THE-SHACK. Just give her the model of the computer and say that you don't know the catalog number. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From rcini at msn.com Sun Jul 20 17:20:26 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:09:19 -0500 (CDT) starling@umr.edu wrote: >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in any quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. >>I could see purchasing the rights to the C=64 and setting them free as public domain. Perhaps raise the money to do it by selling "shares" of ownership in the rights to C= enthusiasts. That way, emulators can use original C= ROM code without copyright infringement, and "Build Your Own Commie 64" kits could be a possibility. Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd belong to the computing community.<< I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. >>I don't see much of a point to owning the rights to such things in a for-proffit mode. Except maybe just bragging rights...<< Mmmmm. What's wrong with a little bragging?? >>"Hey, baby... I own the exclusive rights to manufacture the Commodore Plus 4. Want to go back to my place for a drink?"<< ;-) Sounds like Austin Powers! ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Sun Jul 20 22:22:12 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:09:19 -0500 (CDT) starling@umr.edu wrote: > > >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? > > Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a > reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in any > quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. I agree. Why would anyone pay ANY money for shares if they knew that everything would ultimately become public domain. > >>I could see purchasing the rights to the C=64 and setting them free as > public domain. Perhaps raise the money to do it by selling "shares" of > ownership in the rights to C= enthusiasts. That way, emulators can use > original C= ROM code without copyright infringement, and "Build Your Own > Commie 64" kits could be a possibility. Or, even more attractive, build your own C=65 kits (or build your own 900 Unix machine, etc.etc.) > Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd belong to the computing > community.<< > > I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a > slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. The keyword being licenses here. No one asks anyone on here to work for free and likewise, no one should be expected to shell out their hard earned cash for the "greater computing good." Sure, Commodore went bye-bye a LONG time ago but the rights to some of that stuff still won't be cheap... > >>I don't see much of a point to owning the rights to such things in a > for-proffit mode. Except maybe just bragging rights...<< > > Mmmmm. What's wrong with a little bragging?? I don't see much point in buying something and then making it public domain except maybe for throwing your money away. (Unless of course, if we're talking $1 a share here) > >>"Hey, baby... I own the exclusive rights to manufacture the Commodore > Plus 4. Want to go back to my place for a drink?"<< > > ;-) Sounds like Austin Powers! > > ------------------------ > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCPS Windows 95/Networking Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 21 01:15:51 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, I managed to get at least of the necessary pieces to have a usable TI-99/4a although I think I've don't have the proper pieces for video, since all I get is B&W. I'm wondering why of the six cartridges I've got three work just fine. Two don't work at all, and one "Parsec" works if I fiddle with the tuner on the TV after it's running, yet the initial screen that lets you choose BASIC, or the game is normal. Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental conditions effect this? Thanks, Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 21 00:51:39 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Atari 400 / Odyssey ??? Message-ID: Howdy: Today I'm looking for anyone that might have ANY old Atari 400 cassettes and cartridge games or other programs. Right now, I don't have a disk drive for this system, but am looking for one as well. Second, I am looking to buy an Atari 800xx system? Let me know if you have one for sale. Finally, looking for an old Odyssey game system. Any and all models are on my wish list... including the original Odyssey 'pong' unit, and the more modern models of the cartridge game console unit. If you have any of the above for sale, PLEASe let me know, and your price you would offer it to me for. Thanks, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Mon Jul 21 11:08:19 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Commodore Shares... Message-ID: <9706218695.AA869508691@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > > >>Would this be for proffit or non-proffit purposes? > > > > Well, if we have to pay real $ for the info, we should try to make a > > reasonable return. I'm not really considering remanufacturing anything in > > any quantities, but just in case we need to, we can. > > I agree. Why would anyone pay ANY money for shares if they knew that > everything would ultimately become public domain. For the same reason that they put money in collecting tins - not just for charities but for other organisations - it's a good cause. I'll subscribe! > > Since the rights would be purchased by the computing community, they'd > belong to the computing > > community.<< > > > > I don't necessarily have a problem with this. If this ever comes to pass (a > > slim chance at best), we can make provisions for emulator licenses. > > The keyword being licenses here. No one asks anyone on here to work for > free and likewise, no one should be expected to shell out their hard > earned cash for the "greater computing good." Sure, Commodore went > bye-bye a LONG time ago but the rights to some of that stuff still won't > be cheap... No-one should be expected to, but I think you'll find more people are prepared to than you expect. I'm prepared to - I get my money's worth anyway (technical data for my several PETs, VICs and my 64), and I would be quite happy to see the stuff go PD thereafter. Returning briefly to the Commodore B series, how do the 8200 series machines fit in? I see old documents refering to the B and P series, and older ones refering to the 500 and 700 series (I think respectively), but the machines I've actually seen from that period are called 8296. There were two models that I've seen - the 8296D (with internal disk drives) and the 8296 (without). The motherboard is identical - two banks of 64k RAM, (I think) a high speed (2MHz?) 6502, and a couple of chips which you unsolder and move to adjacent positions for 40 column mode. The case is similar to the 8032SK - rounded, plasticky PET case with large green screen and separate keyboard, but returns to the edge connectors for the IEEE488 and user ports. The internal disk drive - which I have now added to my 8296 to make a D machine - is an 8252 (?) which plugs into the IEEE488 internally. Ironically, 8296 had a linear power supply and 8296D a switchmode! So how do the 8296 and the B/P machines relate? Anyone know? Also, how do you do the bank switching to get at the full 96K of RAM? (I think you lose 32K to the screen - very inefficient!) Philip. From jscarter at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 21 09:25:25 1997 From: jscarter at worldnet.att.net (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19970721102525.006a3fb0@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> At 06:15 AM 7/21/97 +0000, you wrote: >Hi, >I managed to get at least of the necessary pieces to have a usable TI-99/4a >although I think I've don't have the proper pieces for video, since all I >get is B&W. > >I'm wondering why of the six cartridges I've got three work just fine. Two >don't work at all, and one "Parsec" works if I fiddle with the tuner on the >TV after it's running, yet the initial screen that lets you choose BASIC, >or the game is normal. > >Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is >the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental >conditions effect this? > > Thanks, > Zane I currently have 59 TI-99/4a cartridges, and I only remember finding one that I couldn't get to work. If you havn't, try cleaning the cartridge contacts with alcohol and a cotton swab. The unit's cartridge port may need cleaning as well. I have an older black & silver 99/4a and have heard that some of the later beige ones included some kind of lock-out by TI to prevent 3rd party cartridges from working. James jscarter@worldnet.att.net From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Mon Jul 21 09:47:04 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: USING classic chips (was Re: USING classic machines) In-Reply-To: <199707202045.WAA11997@mbox.queen.it> Message-ID: <28F68FC57407@ifrsys.com> I can attest to this! I once had a prototype GSM Class I phone (which nobody makes anymore, BTW), and there were no less than three 684xx processors in it. Wish I still had that thing-- Jeff > > >> At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, someone wrote: > > > Big advantage here over Atari and Amiga 68000 based > >hardware is the high availability of dirt cheap networking and disk > >hardware... other than that, I'll take the 68000 based stuff any day as a > >personal preferance. > > If interested in such family of CPU's and want to use them as preference, be > informed that Motorola use a 68k chip inside its GSM cellular phones (like ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > 7000's and 8000's) > > I found this info on > http://www.ibt.dk/morten/friends/hardware.htm > > > Ciao! > > > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > ? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE ? > ? AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY ? > ? Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* ? > ? where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html ? > ? e-mail=chemif@mbox.queen.it ? > ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? > > From transit at primenet.com Mon Jul 21 10:03:44 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: <33C3D6DD.61DA@rain.org> Message-ID: I know a lot of these mailing lists are gatewayed to a newsgroup in a special bit.listserv hierarchy. That might me a good idea for this group, as the volume of messages here as gotten too unwieldy for e-mail. (I have over a thousand messages unread from this group alone). I'll be out of town for a week, so I'll need to temporarily unsubscribe (although I really hate to miss anything). But, i'll be back. . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit@primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From starling at umr.edu Mon Jul 21 10:12:52 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jul 20, 97 10:15:51 pm Message-ID: <199707211512.KAA13086@saucer.cc.umr.edu> > Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is > the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental > conditions effect this? Assuming that TI didn't make their cartridges with EPROMs (which would be subject to bit-rot), I'd suspect the connectors on the cartridge are dirty & therefore not making good contact with the socket. Video cartridges with normal ROM chips on them are pretty much indestructable it seems, so I doubt that the cartridges are bad. Opinion varies on how to clean cartridge contacts, but the two most popular ways seem to be: 1) pencil eraser and 2) alcohol & cotton swab. I prefer the pencil eraser as long as I'm able to get at the contacts well enough with it. Just be sure you get off all the pencil eraser particles off the card and be sure you use a PINK eraser, not the abrasive white (pen ink) kind. You might also try using some canned air or something to clean the cartridge socket on the TI. They make video-game socket cleaning pads for like Nintendo machines that you could probably modify to work in the TI. I really can't remember how TI cartridges are constructed, so it may be a big pain in the arse to clean the buggers. * From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 21 10:35:56 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? Message-ID: <199707211535.AA16442@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I for one hope not. The few groups I write to that are a a constant source > of junk mail from the spammers that parse them. > > Allison I have a cure for this! telnet localhost 19 | mail spammer@wherever.com Let it run for awhile, then ^C it after about 10 minutes... From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Mon Jul 21 11:37:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Atari still around? Message-ID: Yes! Sorry about the misspelling! The merger was done by ATARI giving a "bridge loan" to JTS. ---------- From: jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Atari still around? Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 1:00PM I had to jump in! :) Mike, are you talking about the Tandon as in "Tandem"? :) Is that person who now owns this JTS is american or not? I still waiting to see how good JTS are or still junk. I knew Tandon drives used to be reasonably good drive but WD jumped in and screwed it. Thanks. Jason D. > Yes there are still distributors around! I will put a list together. > Atari merged with JTS, a make of PC hardrives, owned by the person who > used to put out Tandem harddrives. Atari is now known as ATARI > INTERACTIVE, a maker of game software for all platforms! > Mike From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Mon Jul 21 12:15:51 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> Here's my update for the stuff I'm selling on AuctionWeb. There are a couple fairly rare items here. I just want to clear stuff out and get what I can for them so they will sell for the high bid. I recently sold a few things there really cheap, like in the $1 - $5 range for new Apple parts so I think overall the prices are down during the Summer. Anyway, here's the list. Just go to the link shown to bid and get more info. And drop me an email if you have a question beyond what's in the listing. Note the Apple Lisa Mouse and Apple III drive! **Note: I mistakenly listed this as an Apple II mouse when, from a couple emails, I was informed that it's actually an Apple Lisa Mouse. There is a picture at the listing. Old Apple Lisa Mouse! *** PHOTO *** Current bid: $15.50 Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 16:45:54 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=zjz242 Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** Current bid: $7.50 Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:43:32 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=nwr8950 Atari 520ST System With Floppy & More! Current bid: $8.50 Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:49:56 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hrc0869 Apple IIe 80 Col/64K Expansion Card Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:35:51 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=eix4345 Timex Sinclair 1000 w/16K Module/Software Current bid: $6.50 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:46:22 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ytc65252 Brand New Apple IIe Power Supply! Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 16:59:52 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ipi2331 Macintosh SE Power Supply! Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/26/97, 17:35:06 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lxm4715 Brand New Apple IIe Replacement Keyboard! Current bid: $5.51 Auction ends on: 07/27/97, 19:00:44 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=qsa5622 Atari Trackball Controller **photo** Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 07/27/97, 20:34:18 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=gsi241 Also, I have lots more computer stuff in the garage that has to go. Here's a brief list. I'll be listing everything on the auction in the next month or so. Apple IIe (3 ea) Apple IIc with monitor and power supply Apple IIe Color Monitor Apple Imagewriter II printer (3 ea) Macintosh 512k Pile of new Apple service parts for Mac plus, Mac II, Apple IIe, IIc, Imagewriter, more including power supplies, main boards, disk drives and more. Apple joysticks and paddle controllers Commodore 1702 color monitor Commodore 1541 drive (4 ea) Commodore 64 in box Piles of Commodore power supplies and cables, joysticks, etc Thanks for reading! From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 21 12:35:13 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <199707211335_MC2-1B45-3DE7@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:SUPRDAVE@aol.com >i also picked up something called a mattel aquarius for $10. the box was still sealed up, even the staples were intact! i havent used it yet. any opinions on the copy option board or the aquarius would be welcome. < I'll send you e-mail on this, but for the benefit of anyone else: I happen to maintain the FAQ on the Aquarius, and on the "add-on" computer keyboard for the Mattel Intellivision, known as the ECS. Since you have the manual, some of the information in the FAQ will be duplicative, but some could be very useful. For instance, depending on the package you got, the Aquarius does not come with the cable needed to hook it to a cassette recorder. From the (brief) description in the manual, the cable SOUNDS like the Radio Shack cable-- five-pin DIN connector on one end, and plugs for the cassette EAR, MIC and REMote connectors on the other. Unfortunately, the Aquarius cable is NOT wired the same as the Radio Shack cable; and, the manual doesn't supply a diagram of any Aquarius ports to allow you to easily figure it out yourself! The FAQ explains how to make your own. Also explained is how to attach a serial printer (either a DB-25, or a Radio Shack printer intended for use with the CoCo) to the Aquarius. (The Aquarius printer port is quite unique: it's a mini-stereo socket-- just three separate lines.) Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 21 12:35:10 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: TI-99/4A Cartridge Lifespan Message-ID: <199707211335_MC2-1B45-3DE6@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >I managed to get at least of the necessary pieces to have a usable TI-99/4a although I think I've don't have the proper pieces for video, since all I get is B&W.< It's probably not worth your effort to mess with a malfunctioning /4a; get another one. I see these units ALL THE TIME in the $3-$4 range, and I don't even pick them up because I already have more than I'll ever need. The trick with the TI is to find the "expansion box", particularly one well populated with cards; that adds (with the right cards) 32K memory, 1 or 2 disk drives, and serial/parallel ports. (Obviously, you can expand it more if you want to get serious about the TI, but this is the "plain vanilla" disk system.) Then you can run disk-based software without dealing with cartridges all the time. Still, you can have some fun with a non-disk system. The cartridges can allow you to do serious work and save the output to tape. There is also an adventure cartridge that contains the basic parser, etc., and then the different adventures can be loaded from tape. A nice setup for a small-memory computer. By the way, your cable might be your problem on having a monochrome picture. Many of the old home computers put out a monochrome signal on one of the pins, and a color composite on another. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com I'm wondering why of the six cartridges I've got three work just fine. Two don't work at all, and one "Parsec" works if I fiddle with the tuner on the TV after it's running, yet the initial screen that lets you choose BASIC, or the game is normal. Is this a indication of dead carts or a problem with my computer? What is the estimated lifespan of the standard cartridge, and how can environmental conditions effect this? Thanks, Zane < From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Mon Jul 21 14:25:18 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> from "Greg Mast" at Jul 21, 97 10:15:51 am Message-ID: <199707211925.PAA29042@hiway1.exit109.com> > Also, I have lots more computer stuff in the garage that has to go. > Here's a brief list. I'll be listing everything on the auction in the > next month or so. > > Pile of new Apple service parts for Mac plus, Mac II, Apple IIe, IIc, > Imagewriter, more including power supplies, main boards, disk drives and > more. Greg, I'm trying to find a cheap motherboard for a Mac+ I picked up. Any chance of dealing with you directly or do you only deal through the auctions? Thanks... <<>> From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Mon Jul 21 10:32:57 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <199707211925.PAA29042@hiway1.exit109.com> References: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> from "Greg Mast" at Jul 21, 97 10:15:51 am Message-ID: <199707211932.PAA25349@mail.cgocable.net> Hi John! Is that yours called Mac Plus? Well, what's the problem? I can offer you info if I know what you having problems with it. I own Mac Plus also but not using because I have problem finding a cheap tube, the yoke is not that important as I have it and bare 800k with frame (both drive/frame not too vital as I have external drive). Someone got the mac stripped of parts, I was rebuilding it. Jason D. > Greg, > > I'm trying to find a cheap motherboard for a Mac+ I picked up. Any chance > of dealing with you directly or do you only deal through the auctions? > > Thanks... <<>> > > From gram at cnct.com Mon Jul 21 15:24:57 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > > > > > > I for one hope not. The few groups I write to that are a a constant source > > of junk mail from the spammers that parse them. > > I have a cure for this! > telnet localhost 19 | mail spammer@wherever.com > Let it run for awhile, then ^C it after about 10 minutes... That only works if the spammer uses a real address. Most don't. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From manney at nwohio.com Mon Jul 21 15:03:38 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive Message-ID: <199707212015.NAA16283@mx4.u.washington.edu> A customer's Atari 720 K 3 1/2" floppy drive died. Anyone have one? According to him, this takes standard IBM DSDD 720K drives, but not Tandy (I guess, because of the strange data cable.) Thanks, manney@nwohio.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 21 16:21:25 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: DG Nova 4's, Eclipse S130's Message-ID: <9707212021.AA29492@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3574 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970721/6b7a5eae/attachment-0001.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 21 15:58:25 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Anyone got games/etc that I can poke into ODT? In-Reply-To: <9707212021.AA29492@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: I'm getting bored, my 11/23 has no o/s yet. Anyone know of a game/editor/SOMETHING! I can poke into ODT so it can do something? And I can't get the V6 Unix images booted under E11, so I can't poke in the kernel (Besides, it'd need an RL02) From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jul 21 17:59:43 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Just got Xerox 8/16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can anyone point me to some web resources on the Xerox 8/16? Alta-vista wouldn't match anything to "Xerox 8/16" and gave me a page mentioning Xerox parc updated on 8/16/96 for "Xerox" "8/16" :-( It looks like I have all the disks/docs, the disk drive unit and a printer. thanks srw From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 21 17:19:08 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: CoCo disks Message-ID: <199707212219.SAA11755@unix.aardvarkol.com> I found what looks to be a few intersting disks today, though at the moment I can't check to see what's on them or anything. They are all for the CoCo though, and all Tandy-labled disks in Tandy jackets still...and some are even for OS-9. They are: Flightsim I, (c) 1984 Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 C Compiler for OS-9 Systems (version 01), (c) 1983 Color Disk EDTASM (version 01), (c) 1983 Ghana Bwana, (c) 1984 OS-9 Profile, (c) 1984 Biosphere for OS-9, (c) 1985 At least now I've got a few CoCo disks to try once I finally find a disk controller for my III! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 21 18:37:12 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: V6 Unix and E11 Message-ID: I can't get the V6 Unix images to boot under E11. Any special differences between it an V7? (Other than my real PDP can't do V7) From zmerch at northernway.net Mon Jul 21 20:47:34 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: CoCo disks Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970721214732.00a8d490@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, Jeff Hellige happened to blather: > I found what looks to be a few intersting disks today, though at the >moment I can't check to see what's on them or anything. They are all for >the CoCo though, and all Tandy-labled disks in Tandy jackets still...and >some are even for OS-9. They are: > Flightsim I, (c) 1984 This is one of the original flight simulators that came out for several 8 & 16-bit machines that IIRC the copyright was bought up by none other than Micro$hark. > Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 This is a GUI for OS-9... it was rather interesting [and I've heard useful with a hard drive], but *extremely* slow with floppies. > OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 Standard USCD P-code compiler... interesting thing is you could compile programs larger than 64K (max memory for a CoCo 1/2) out-of-box. > C Compiler for OS-9 Systems (version 01), (c) 1983 IIRC, *almost* standard K&R C... methinks there were a few *very minor* differences that were easy to code around, but non-standard nonetheless. > Color Disk EDTASM (version 01), (c) 1983 This can be fudged to use the 80x24 screen of the CoCo3 (quite nicely, I might add... as I used it quite often like this) but the line-editor was still weird. There are patches available to make this assembler support the Hitachi 6309 processor, which is a M6809 workalike -with enhancements.- > Ghana Bwana, (c) 1984 > OS-9 Profile, (c) 1984 > Biosphere for OS-9, (c) 1985 Never played with any of these... others will have to take the ball and run here. > At least now I've got a few CoCo disks to try once I finally find a >disk controller for my III! Uhhh, I might have one *for trade*. Presently, I have two available working Disto MC-1 [Mini-Controller 1] boards, but without getting into that entire pirating issue *again*, I have no available DOS's for them. I am looking for a shareware RS-DOS clone that I could burn into e-prom for you, or I could purchase ADOS-3 or Extended ADOS-3 for you and install it. Be warned: I don't have cases for these controllers, so you'll have to run them nekkid or fudge something of your own. (The Tandy FD-500/501/502 case will work fine... but you can't buy them thru RS anymore, AFAIK.) I'll keep looking for a week or two for a DOS you can use, and let you know if you're interested. See ya, "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 21 11:32:48 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: CoCo disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970721214732.00a8d490@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On 22-Jul-97, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Flightsim I, (c) 1984 >This is one of the original flight simulators that came out for several 8 & >16-bit machines that IIRC the copyright was bought up by none other than >Micro$hark. I forget if it was Flight Simulator I or FS II that I had for the Tandy 2000 when I still was using mine. I know that in it's 640x400 x 16 color mode though it sure looked nice, especially compared to Flight Simulator on a standard PC using CGA! Even EGA didn't look near as good, with it's odder aspect ratio. >> Multiview for OS-9 L-II, (c) 1987 >This is a GUI for OS-9... it was rather interesting [and I've heard useful >with a hard drive], but *extremely* slow with floppies. Yes, I've seen this running, and it even looks fairly nice in low-res mode. >> OS-9 Pascal Disk I & II (version 02), (c) 1983 >Standard USCD P-code compiler... interesting thing is you could compile >programs larger than 64K (max memory for a CoCo 1/2) out-of-box. That's interesting...now if I could find a P-Card for my TI-99/4A, I could write stuff on the CoCo and run it under P-System on both the 4A and on the 5155! There's some interesting cross-platform computing... >Uhhh, I might have one *for trade*. Presently, I have two available working >Disto MC-1 [Mini-Controller 1] boards, What types of things might you be looking for in trade? >I'll keep looking for a week or two for a DOS you can use, and let you know >if you're interested. Yes, I certainly would be interested...please let me know what you come up with. Thanks. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From more at camlaw.rutgers.edu Mon Jul 21 20:56:39 1997 From: more at camlaw.rutgers.edu (Mr. Self Destruct) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Just got Xerox 8/16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your not going to find any web resources. Trust me, I've tried. Anyway, hat exactly are you looking for>? Are you sure you have ALL the docs? (My docs comprise 4 3 inch thick binders) Les more@crazy.rutgers.edu From scott at saskatoon.com Mon Jul 21 21:04:48 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: CoCo disks In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970721214732.00a8d490@mail.northernway.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Flightsim I, (c) 1984 > >This is one of the original flight simulators that came out for several 8 & >16-bit machines that IIRC the copyright was bought up by none other than >Micro$hark. This version should probably be labelled SubLogic, which was founded by Bruce Artwick. In the late 80's, SubLogic fell on hard times, Bruce left them and started BAO (Bruce Artwick Organization.) In late 1995 (I believe) MS bought the assets of BAO and began developing MSFS themselves. BTW, MS Flight Sim (Developed at SubLogic) was the first game for the IBM PC. For more history check out: http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/CS_INFO_SERVER/ALUMNI_INFO/newsletter/v1n7/artwick.html ttfn srw - avid flightsimmer (Still using 5.1, 6.0 sucks.) From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Mon Jul 21 12:00:15 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: CoCo disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22-Jul-97, Scott Walde wrote: >>> Flightsim I, (c) 1984 >This version should probably be labelled SubLogic, which was founded by >Bruce Artwick. Actually, it's labled: (c) 1984 Greg Zumwalt All Rights Reserved. Licensed to Tandy Corporation It carries the Tandy catalog# 26-3108. Both versions of Flight Simulator II for the Atari 800 that I have on the other hand, the disk version for the 800 and the cartridge version for the XE, are both from SubLogic, and have Bruce's name on them. Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dynasoar at mindspring.com Tue Jul 22 00:25:55 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Just got Xerox 8/16 References: Message-ID: <33D44463.7660@mindspring.com> Mr. Self Destruct wrote: > > Your not going to find any web resources. Trust me, I've tried. Anyway, > hat exactly are you looking for>? Are you sure you have ALL the docs? > (My docs comprise 4 3 inch thick binders) > > Les > more@crazy.rutgers.edu So true! Les is right, the docs for this machine weigh in at about 50 lbs +! I've searched and searched for web resources but there are none. I *did* find a few postings referenced in Deja News, and once in a while some one on comp.os.cpm makes a reference to a 16/8 for sale or giveaway, but there isn't much else. So I search on...there must be more than three of these machines left in the world? Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From foxnhare at goldrush.com Mon Jul 21 23:48:45 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ Message-ID: <33D43BAD.5080@goldrush.com> I figured I'd shoot this by you guys as I am getting closer to putting it on my web site. I am sure I will get some good criticism from you all. If you have any additions/suggestions or additional questions to include, let me know. I also plan also to add in a couple texts on disk drive usage some PET memory maps (gee there are barely any PET maps on the net!) and if I don't find a link to one, an overview of Commodore PET BASIC (applies to 64 also). (view with a monospaced font for best results) THE COMMODORE PET COMPUTER FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FILE - VERSION 1.0beta --------------------------------------------- BY LARRY ANDERSSON, COMMODORE COLLECTOR AND PET ENTHUSIAST --------------------------------------------- WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing MOS Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its microprocessor, the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in series' the first series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the modern 4000 and 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is the SuperPET. 9" display units (40 column x 25 line character only display): PET 2001series: Original PET: - Steel case - Internal 'datasette' cassette tape drive - Blue on black 9" display - Small 'calculator style' keyboard - Small shipment with 4k, most with 8k RAM - Original ROMs Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys - Upgrade ROMs - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. - many with clearer green on black displays - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) - 4.0 ROMs - molded plastic top 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. - 4.0 ROMs PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) CBM 80xx - 80 x 25 display, powers-up in upper/lower case. - buisness xx key keyboard - later versions had 64k & 96k RAM expansion board options. - 4.0 ROMs PET SP9000 SuperPET (or Micro Mainframe) - 80 x 25 display - 6809 co-processor board - 96k RAM - True RS-232 interface - Multiple charactersets (for APL, etc.) - Avalability of disk Based languages MOTHERBOARD SERIES 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ ! # ! #! ! # ! #! ! # exp ! #! exp ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! ! # ! #! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ROMS ! ! ! ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! #1 # ! #2 # ! +--------------------+ +--------------------+ 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) IEEE user tape #1 +------####-####--##-+ ! # # tape ! # # #2 ! R exp bus # ! ! A #! 2000 Series ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] ! M R B ! ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k ! O S E ! ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] +--------------------+ WHAT VERSION OF ROMS DO I HAVE ON MY PET? The PET/CBM line had three major ROM revisions as well as a few minor ones, you cannot reliably determine the ROMs by looking at the outside of the PET (unless it has a large monitor). Fortunately there is an easy way to distinguish the three various versions by just turning on the computer. Depending on how your start-up message looks you can determine the ROM version: *** COMMODORE BASIC *** - Original ROMs sometimes referred to as 2.0* ROMs. (only found in the older calculator keyboard style PETs) Occupy $C000-$FFFF ### COMMODORE BASIC ### - Commonly known as the 'Upgrade ROMs' sometimes referred to as 2.0 or 3.0 ROMs depending on who you ask. Occupy $C000-$FFFF *** COMMODORE BASIC 4.0 *** - 4.0 ROMs The only ROMs that will work on large-screen PETs. Occupy $B000-$FFFF * Some people contend that BASIC version 1.0 never made it out of beta development and the PET line started with version 2.0 ROMs... Commodore on the other hand usually refers to the 'Upgrade ROMs' as V2, or 2.0. For the sake of sanity in this FAQ I will refer to them as original and upgrade ROMs, and as for an opinion I will go with the company's numbering (which leaves V 3.0 out of the picture). WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? Original ROMs Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a while to compile them) Upgrade ROMs Many Original ROM bugs were squashed. BASIC commands and capabilities very much like the Commodore 64's. Now includes a tiny ML monitor and IEEE-488 disk operability. Easter Egg - enter WAIT 6502,x to see MICROSOFT!' displayed on the screen x number of times. 4.0 ROMs* Addition of direct Disk operation commands DLOAD, DSAVE, COPY, HEADER, etc. Ability to repeat cursor control characters by holding down keys. Reserved DOS error-channel variables: DS,DS$. Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. * The small screen-and large screen versions of these ROMs differ and some software developed for the small-screen 4.0 ROMS crash on the large screen units. This is due to the necessary changes made for the new video controller of the 12" display PETs. CAN I RUN VIC-20, 64, 128, PLUS/4, OR C-16 SOFTWARE ON MY PET? Maybe. Any program that is all BASIC that does not use hi-res graphics or sound and contains no POKES should work readily on a PET. Of course if it contains POKEs, sound commands, and Machine Language conversion will be nessasary. If it rely on more than one voice of sound, hi-res grpahics, programmable character sets or color, it may not be worth converting because those features aren't present on the PETs. NOTE: Many early VIC, 64, and Plus/4 BASIC games and programs were converted PET games. HOW DO I GET 64 (VIC, PLUS/4, ETC.) BASIC PROGRAMS ON MY PET? Unlike the later 8-bit Commodores,the PET always loads programs into the memory address they were saved at (i.e. no loading ,8 and ,8,1 as on the later machines), which means BASIC programs saved on VICs, 64s, 128s, etc, will not load in the right location on the PET to be seen by the BASIC interpreter. PET BASIC starts at location 1025 ($0401 in hex) and the later Commodore machines have different, higher starting locations. (see table x) There are a couple ways to get a BASIC program to load properly into memory, Disk Track/Sector Editors: My preferred method of conversion is using a disk track/sector editing utility to change the 'load address bytes' of the file directly on the disk. This is not an easy process to 'explain' and I hope to write it up at a later time. BASIC Line Relocation Method: Here is a way to get the BASIC editor to do it for you; of course you will need to have an upgrade ROM or later PET (which has a ML monitor) or load in a monitor for your original ROM PET first. It involves 'linking' the higher located BASIC program to a line starting in regular BASIC, when you delete that line, the editor will move your program to where it belongs in memory. 1. Enter NEW to erase any programs already in memory. 2. Enter: 0 REM 3. LOAD the program you want converted (i.e. LOAD"program name",1 for tape) 4. When loaded, enter the machine language monitor by entering SYS 1024 5. display the first part of the BASIC you first typed: M 0401 0408 6. Change the line-link to the memory location of the program to be moved; use cursor keys to move up and change the first two two-digit numbers to read: :0401 01 08 00 00 8F 00 00 00 ^^ ^^ (for a program from a 64, otherwise, see table x) 7. Press return to change the bytes then enter X to exit the monitor. 8. Type LIST, you should see the 0 REM followed by the program. 9. Enter 0 to delete line 0 which will move the BASIC to its proper place. 10. Save the program. TABLE X - Load Addresses for BASIC files: Saved under Start of BASIC Computer load load change Model/ addr. addr. bytes configuration dec. hex. to: ------------- ---- ----- ----- PET/CBM 1025 $0401 N/A VIC-20 unex. 4097 $1001 01 10 VIC-20 +3k 1025 $0401 N/A VIC-20 8k+ 4609 $1201 01 12 Commodore 64 2049 $0801 01 08 B-128 0003 $0003 * Plus/4-C16 4097 $1001 01 10 Plus/4-C16** 8193 $2001 01 20 C128 mode 7169 $1C01 01 1C C128 mode** 16384 $4001 01 40 * The BASIC RAM of the B128 is located in a separate bank of RAM memory, which starts at a VERY low address and will be difficilt to convert without a track/sector editor or saving it special on a B-128 itself. ** When hi-res GRAPHICS mode space has been allocated. WHAT KIND OF DRIVES CAN I USE? Tape Drives Tape Drives for the VIC, 64 and 128 work well on the PET. In fact you can hook up 2 tape drives on the PET (the second connector is inside the case, on the edge of the motherboard.) and can be accessed as device #2. Commodore Models: SANYO - First drives, power supply section cut out and modified for PET datasette cable/plug. C2N - Box look, black or cream colored case. 1530 - Rounded low-profile, counter & 'save' indicator light. Commodore IEEE-488 5.25" models 2020 - (first drive design, bugs may be present) 2040 - Updated ROMS, resembles a 1541 format & readbable on 1541/71s 4040 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. 2031 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. 8050 - Single Sided/Quad Density format, 512k per disk side. 8250 - Double Sided/Quad Density format, 1mb per disk SFD-1001 - Same as 8250, but single drive unit. Commodore IEEE-488 8" 8280 - 1 MB or 512k per Drive (little info on this one...) Commodore IEEE-488 Hard Disk Drives 9060 - Five Magabyte Hard Disk Unit 9090 - Seven Megabyte Hard Disk Unit 3rd party MSD-SD1 ** The MSD SD1&2 offer both IEEE-488 and MSD-SD2 ** VIC/64/128/+4 Serial bus interfaces. Modified 1541 PRINTERS? Commodore Model IEEE-488 Printers 4022 4023 8023 Some companies produced printers with IEEE-488 interface options (Epson was one) HOW CAN I GET PET PROGRAMS FROM DISK TO TAPE? You can just LOAD the program from tape and and SAVE them to disk one after another, of course, if you are using a VIC/64/128, etc. the loading address will get messed up. Fortunately there is a wonderful fily copy utility available for PET (4.0), VIC, and Commodore 64/128, called 'Unicopy'. Unicopy (written by the famous Commodore enthusiast, Jim Butterfield) allows you to copy from disk directly to tape. This of course preserves the loading address and makes things mauch easier. (also it performs multiple file copies instead of just one program at a time). HOW CAN I GET PET TAPE PROGRAMS TO DISK? Again you can do LOAD and SAVE as I mentioned or use a handy little utility I had discovered for the 64. This program will automatically LOAD each file off of tape and subsequently SAVE it to disk and continue until you stop it (or a disk error occurs when it attempts to save a file with the same name as one already on disk, disk full, or end of tape. HOW DO I HEAR/PLAY SOUND ON MY PET? Like many other microcomputers of the time the PET was not originally designed to produce sound. A few methods of sound generation have been developed but the most popular employs the use of parallel user port pin M which generates.... The latest 4000/8000 (large screen PET) motherboards have a built-in piezo speaker and also have a bell sound accessible with a print: chr$(7) Sound Interface Diagrams here... WHAT ARE THE BASIC COMMANDS FOR MY PET? For the most part the BASIC on the 64 is identical to the upgrade ROM PETs and it only varys by a few commands and features between original and 4.0 ROMs. On the other hand the 'memory map', the locations you POKE numbers into, vary quite a bit between ROM revisions. Memory Maps are available for all the versions... HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is available on all PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a BRK instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), most people enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. WHAT ARE THE COMMANDS FOR THE M/L MONITOR? G - Execute M/L: G programaddress (i.e. G 033C) L - Load: L "filename",dev (i.e. L "PACMAN",08) S - Save: S "filename",dev,startaddress,endaddress (i.e. S "FLASH ATTACK",02,027A,2000) R - Display Processor Registers X - Exit Tiny Mon M - Memory Display: M startaddress endaddress (i.e. M 0400 04A0) : - Modify Memory (supplied in memory dumps using the M command) ; - Modify Processor Registers (supplied in the processor register, P command) CAN I GET A BETTER M/L MONITOR FOR MY PET? Yes, there are two that I know of that are readily avaiable. The most popular (and universal among the Commodore 8-bits) is Jim Butterfield's Supermon. There are versions available for all ROM revisions including original ROM PETS and offer a mini Assembler and Disassembler among other useful memory/ML commands. The other, similar to Supermon is called Extramon. There are other versions many of wich are commercial but I have little information on them. I HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN USE JOYSTICKS, WHERE CAN I GET/MAKE THEM? The PET was not initially designed for joysticks but a determined user had devised a dual-joystick interface employing the parallel port. This interface allows you to plug in standard Atari/Commodore compatible joysticks.... Interface Diagram Here HOW COME MY PET CAN'T READ A TAPE FROM MY PLUS/4 OR COMMODORE 16 OR VISA-VERSA? You are quite a collector, aren't you? When Commodore designed the Plus/4 and Commodore 16 they broke alot of standards they had previously established for their 8-bits (and fortunately went back to in the C128); besides the plug designs, they changed the sound-frequency of the signals used to record on tape. Though the the format is identical to the PET and the other 8-bits, the sound is only readable on the Plus/4 and Commodore 16. My sggestion would be to record the program on disk (1541) and then read it on a 4040 or 2031, or copy them from the 1541 to tape using a 64 or 128. WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically break a computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other mechanical units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. History of 'the killer poke' When the first PETs (small 9" screen) models came out, the display wasnt all that fast. It wasn't too long before someone learned they could impove the character printing speed via a poke to location 59458; which would set the video controller into a faster mode. It was a noticible improvement of speed on programs using PRINT often, it was kind of like a free upgrade. It was mentioned in a few publications and used in many programs that relied on printing to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor Magazine, a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the command in one of the 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue which you could insert into their game "joust" to make it play faster. Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs, they had  improved display speed which made that POKE unnecessary. An unfortunate side effect was that the POKE to 59458 still caused the already faster controller to run even faster, in fact too-fast, which could result in damaging the PETs video curcuitry when left running. I discovered it by accident after our school received some large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen starts to warp after about the third line and the display stops around the fifth, the keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this mode, the only solution is to turn it off, quickly! Fortunately none of the school's PETs were damaged due to this POKE. Later Cursor Magazine published a 'fix' that would allow older PETs to use the poke and keep the large-screen units from frying. Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have this fix. Prevention Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games) when running them on a large-screen PET and be ready with the power switch when you first run it. I have usually found the 'killer poke' statement looking like this: POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32. The fix is to put an if-then conditional to determine if the poke is needed for the PET running the program, here is the code: IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from the user port... Insert Video Diagram here.... WHAT ARE THE PINOUTS SO I CAN BUILD AN IEEE-488 CABLE FOR MY PET TO MY DRIVE. WHERE CAN I GET SOFTWARE FOR MY PET? WHERE CAN I GET CONNECTORS THAT FIT THE USER/IEEE-488 PORTS? IS THERE A MODEM AVAILABLE FOR MY PET? I know of only one company that prosuced a modem and IEEE-488 interface, the company is TNW, and I think they also built the Commoodre 8010, an acoustic modem for the PET. I have some notes on using the device but have never actually seen one. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Mon Jul 21 23:40:12 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Odyssey2, Commodore Calc., 8" disks.... Message-ID: Howdy: I picked up a few things today, and was wondering if anyone might have some feedback on this snag... including some more information on some of the items. To start with, I paid a total of $44 for the following. Feel free to let me know if I got a good deal... or not. 1) Odyssey 2 game system from Magnavox (Phillips). This comes with the original box, power supply, joysticks, TV converter box, etc. Also in this package is the THE VOICE expansion unit that allows voice output from the cartridge software. The unit itself is in _perfect_ condition! Thirteen game carts also came with this unit: Alien Invaders-Plus!, Computer Golf!, Attack of the Timelord!, Invaders From Hyperspace!, Speedwar, Spin-Out, Crypto-logic (the last three on one cart), Killer Bees!, KC'sKrazy Chase!, Sid the Spellbinder!, Type & Tell!, Football!, Nimble Numbers Ned, Bowling, Basketball (the last two on same cart), UFO!, and KC Munchkin!. Along with these carts are all the original boxes, in great shape, and the original manuals and countless other inserts! Does anyone know what the 'going' rate for a package like this might be these days? Also, does anyone have any inside info. on why ALL their titles end with an ' ! '?? 2) Commodore Solid State Electronic Calculator Model # 887D seriel #099632. I am seeking more information on this one. It's just a small digital (old style, lights actually are lit for numbers, etc.) calculator. This came with original manual, inserts, power supply, and box. I wasn't able to find a manufactured date, but on one of the instruction addition inserts, it is dated 10-1-1975. Please let me know if you might have more info. on this one. Also, let me know if there are any die-hard Commodore collectors that might be interested in purchasing this from me. 3) I found 60, six boxes of 10, 8" diskettes. These boxes are the heavy, plastic boxes that the top is spring-loaded to pop off. The disks are in mint condition and are unlabled. However, some of the boxes are labeled such things as 'daily backups', C, D, E, etc., and seems to be some accounting or other business disks. Can someone help me out and give some info on what types of machines used these? I know the Radio Shack TRS-80 Model 2,12, & 16 used these 8" disks but what others did? Is anyone interested in buying these up from me? I don't have a heck of a lot of use for them. Well, that's about all. Feel free to contribute any of the requested info., and anything else you'd like. Do you think I did ok financially on this deal? Also, if you're interested in getting 2 & 3 from above please let me know.... I will entertain ANY offers. Finally, I am also looking for any Atari 400 cassettes or cartridges. I don't have a disk drive, but am looking for one. Let me know what you have and how much you'd let 'er go fo, and we'll work something out. Also, looking for old TRS-80 software on disk and cassette, or CoCo cartridges, some keep that in mind as well. Thanks a ton for your time, CORD G. COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 00:58:52 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Odyssey2, Commodore Calc., 8" disks.... In-Reply-To: from "Cord Coslor" at Jul 21, 97 11:40:12 pm Message-ID: <9707220458.AA13116@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970721/2680c0df/attachment-0001.ksh From kyrrin at wizards.NOSPAM.net Tue Jul 22 00:59:20 1997 From: kyrrin at wizards.NOSPAM.net (kyrrin@wizards.NOSPAM.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals Message-ID: <33d84be6.1991914@mail.wizards.net> Fellow in SoCal's trying to get rid of some worthwhile-looking books. Anyone interested? -=-=- -=-=- I was surprised to receive no response whatsoever to my original post. When I started collecting PDPs, I grabbed all the documentation I could get my hands on. Maybe nobody runs RSTS any more. Maybe V9.0 manuals are too old. In any case, the manuals I described in my original post (below) go in the trash if not spoken for by Friday July 25. ---------- Greetings. Unfortunately, my interest in PDP-11s exceeds my available storage. I picked up a partial set of RSTS/E manuals a while back, but find I now need the space they occupy. These are the standard orange DEC binders, and most of the contents are still in shrink wrap. The partial set is as follows: ---------- System Management (Volume 2) System Manager's Guide System Usage (Volume 3) System User's Guide Guide to Writing Command Procedures Utilities (Volume 4) Utilities Reference Manual Introduction to the EDT Editor SORT/MERGE User's Guide RUNOFF User's Guide Utilities (Volume 4A) EDT Editor Manual Utilities (Volume 4B) Task Builder Reference Manual Programmer's Utilities Manual RT11 Utilities Manual TECO User's Guide BASIC-PLUS (Volume 5) BASIC-PLUS Language Manual System Programming (Volume 6) Programming Manual MACRO Programming (Volume 7) System Directives Manual ODT Reference Manual MACRO Programming (Volume 7A) MACRO-11 Language Manual RMS-11 MACRO Programmer's Guide RMS (Volume 8) RMS-11: An Introduction RMS-11 User's Guide RMS-11 Utilities ---------- These manuals are located in Southern CA. Shipping would be pretty expensive, and I would prefer not to have to pack them (e.g. preference granted to those who could pick them up). I am not looking for much (if anything) in return for these; I really just want them gone and suspect someone might need them. If you want me to pack and ship them, though, I will probably want something to offset my time and trouble (and shipping, of course). I am always looking for Q-bus hardware, and right now specifically for S-box (BA213) cabinet kits for a KA650 and a VCB02. Please send email to slinker@primenet.com if interested (NOTE: The email address in the header has an underscore "_" appended to foil spammers). Jeff. -- Jeff Shirley slinker@primenet.com Remove the underscore ("_") from the end of my email address when replying ** UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL/PROMOTIONAL EMAIL IS NOT ACCEPTED ** -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ADDRESS ALTERED TO FOIL SPAMMERS: See below for address... Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) kyrrin-at-wizards-dot-net http://www.wizards.net/technoid "...Spam is bad. Spam wastes resources. Spam is theft of service. Don't spam, period..." From transit at primenet.com Tue Jul 22 03:09:38 1997 From: transit at primenet.com (Charles P. Hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: <199707211535.AA16442@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > > > I for one hope not. The few groups I write to that are a a constant source > of junk mail from the spammers that parse them. I could envision something "robo-moderated" (i.e. only people signed up with the group could post to it, although everyone could read). I tend to doubt anyone would go the trouble of signing on with a listserv, just to spam. . . From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 07:23:54 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Are we gatewayed to a bit.listserv group? In-Reply-To: from "Charles P. Hobbs" at Jul 22, 97 01:09:38 am Message-ID: <9707221123.AA13089@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970722/cadbc97e/attachment-0001.ksh From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 07:39:31 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <33d84be6.1991914@mail.wizards.net> from "kyrrin@wizards.NOSPAM.net" at Jul 22, 97 05:59:20 am Message-ID: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970722/bcf63ae5/attachment-0001.ksh From jrice at texoma.net Tue Jul 22 07:44:10 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: HHC's? Message-ID: <33D4AB1A.69162CDE@texoma.net> I was curious what the status of the HHC's were? JamesL. Rice From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Tue Jul 22 08:45:31 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: DG Hardware Available Message-ID: <199707221345.AA25612@maddog.swec.com> In mail ID number 9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca, Mr. Tim Shoppa laments: > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here in B.C. - machines with full > toggle-and-light front panels - and I'm unable to give them away. This is a crying shame. For plain beauty, the S/130 rivals, and to some, outranks even the much-vaunted IMSAI. For raw speed in a minicomputer the 16-bit line from DG was virtually without peer. Yes, some late -11s surpassed the raw power of the Nova instruction set, but it was years behind DG. We'd better save these machines while we can; Data General was, at its zenith only about 20% of the size of DEC, and its install- base was similar in scope. These machines are _not_ common, remain useable today, and are a joy to look at and run. Don't let the opportunity pass. > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for > the junk heap? I, for one, certainly hope not. Part of the misconception about minicomputers is that they take up huge amounts of space. Yes, individual examples are larger than the average microcomputer; however, minicomputers stack nicely, can be stored very compactly in rack-mounts, and being squared off, can occupy corners very well. They're not as space-intensive as one might think. They're usually faster than most micros, too. While minis don't, right now, get the blast of attention that machines like the IMSAIs do (why is that machine so popular? War Games, maybe?), they are a valuable link to computing's history and they're disappearing from existance very quickly. Without Mr. Shoppa's efforts, better than a dozen of these wonderful systems would have been shipped to the scrappers without a second thought. And that would be too bad. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 22 09:53:12 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT') Message-ID: <199707221453.AA14301@world.std.com> < Yes...most PDP-11 gear is that funky purple color...The early VAXen Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Yet if I make > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I would love to have some classic minis, but I'm having a hard enough time storing (and moving twice in the past 7 months) my collection of 30-odd micros. So... If anyone is willing to give me free storage space in the Saskatoon area, I'll drive down to BC and pick up a few of your minis you want to give away! (And yes, I'll take an IMSAI too.) > Tim. ttfn srw From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Tue Jul 22 10:05:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive Message-ID: I'll look into it! Mike ---------- From: PG Manney To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Wanted -- Atari ST 1040 drive Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 4:03PM A customer's Atari 720 K 3 1/2" floppy drive died. Anyone have one? According to him, this takes standard IBM DSDD 720K drives, but not Tandy (I guess, because of the strange data cable.) Thanks, manney@nwohio.com From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 22 10:51:49 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:23 2005 Subject: Minis not "trendy" enough. (was:RSTS/E Manuals) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Yet if I make > > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) > > I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that > PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I would love to > have some classic minis, but I'm having a hard enough time storing (and > moving twice in the past 7 months) my collection of 30-odd micros. So... I found an innovative solution! My PDP lives under my bed! I have to go post a picture of this. The processor is sideways underneath the headboard, the RX02 is facing out the side of the bed, and the rat's nest of cables (And the EDSI harddisk) is in the middle. The terminal connected to it is sitting on my dresser. THE WALL +-------------+ |**** 0 xxxx| |**** 000 xxxx| +---------xxxx+ **** = processor 0 = wires and misc. xxxx = RX02 From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 22 10:52:10 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: HHC's? In-Reply-To: <33D4AB1A.69162CDE@texoma.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, James L. Rice wrote: > I was curious what the status of the HHC's were? Mike has contacted the company with the HHCs and there is a guy there counting up all the available units. Mike and I worked out a deal of $1600 for 200 units, which puts the base price per unit at $8 before shipping. This will leave me with about 40-50 units to sell or trade off, more than I wanted but I think I can manage. Mike is to get back to me by today or tomorrow. I'll keep everyone posted. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 22 10:49:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here > in B.C. - machines with full toggle-and-light front panels - and > I'm unable to give them away. Repeated posts of the hardware lists > to "classiccmp" have yielded virtually no interest, outside of a > couple of truly heroic collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. > > Yet if I make > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) Hey, if you're willing to pay for the shipping of those beasts, or perhaps drive them down to me, I'd be more than happy to take them in. The fact is they are too cumbersome for most collectors to deal with. You are to be commended for putting forth the effort to collect them yourself, but for us common folk they are just too unwieldy. If I could get machines like you have locally (I do have a source for PDPs) then I would do it. However, I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars or drive hundreds (thousands) of miles in a rented truck (unless you can fit a PDP-11 in the trunk of a Honda Civic) to pick stuff up. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jul 22 11:06:25 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minis not "trendy" enough. (was:RSTS/E Manuals) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707221606.RAA09633@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> In message Tim wrote: > I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that > PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I agree, and here in little old England the houses are very small making the problem greater. I don't have a garage to put big stuff in and my recently converted loft is already full. See pictures at: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/loft/ > I would love to > have some classic minis, but I'm having a hard enough time storing (and > moving twice in the past 7 months) my collection of 30-odd micros. Snap, I love Unix and I would an old PDP to run Unix on, but I don't have space to keep the PDP kit I already have. My main interests are the home micros, so recently I have had to make some hard descisions about passing on the PDP kit I have to other people who can devote more time to it. (Note: I made this descision a few weeks ago now but still haven't got around to doing anything about it because I hate the feeling I get when I think about it, even though I think the things will end up at a good home.) So if you want some PDP kit and can collect from Cambridge UK drop me an email. > So... > If anyone is willing to give me free storage space in the Saskatoon area, > I'll drive down to BC and pick up a few of your minis you want to give > away! (And yes, I'll take an IMSAI too.) Ah storage... if I could only find cheap long term self storage around Cambridge (UK) -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 22 11:36:22 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals Message-ID: <199707221636.AA18279@world.std.com> In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one word: "hogwash". For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but usually do not top 100 pounds or so. Yes, collecting them does take creative space management. I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good call! I hadn't thought of that one... Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with space left over. I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter method" of space management. The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 22 11:55:41 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <199707221652.LAA20593@challenge.sunflower.com> Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd probably love to have one. ---------- > From: Carl R. Friend > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 11:42 AM > > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E > Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the > argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one > word: "hogwash". > > For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" > wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- > abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little > deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are > at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but > usually do not top 100 pounds or so. > > Yes, collecting them does take creative space management. > > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good > call! I hadn't thought of that one... > > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for > transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 > for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just > got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays > in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). > > Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked > at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with > space left over. > > I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter > underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I > also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the > dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal > stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. > > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the > six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen > machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- > fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter > method" of space management. > > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out > to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are > doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > | | | > | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | > | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | > | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | > | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | > |________________________________________________|_____________________| From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Tue Jul 22 12:00:01 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221642.AA26026@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good > call! I hadn't thought of that one... One GOtcha though - my bed is a hospital bed (The kind you can crank up and down) so there's plenty of space under it. But the end of the crank rod sits above the M8186, so if someone cranks it down... *CRUNCH!* There is now a large placard attached to the crank handle - "DO NOT TOUCH THIS HANDLE UNLESS YOU WANT TO BUY THIS COMPUTER!" On a similar note, the 11 itself is not much larger than a PC XT. You can still buy an M8189 (KDF11-BA) from DEC, they cost $2215. From scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu Tue Jul 22 12:21:42 1997 From: scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here > in B.C. - machines with full toggle-and-light front panels - and > I'm unable to give them away. Repeated posts of the hardware lists > to "classiccmp" have yielded virtually no interest, outside of a > couple of truly heroic collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. I'd love to have one, but there's the usual two problems - one is that B.C. is a really long way from Maine, and two, storage space (although if you were on this corner of N. America I'd solve that one). I've always wanted something with a full panel, but 3 hr drives are definitely about the limit. Now, if there was a bucket brigade..... -stacy -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Tue Jul 22 18:25:28 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: PET FAQ Message-ID: <9706228696.AA869621372@compsci.powertech.co.uk> I have some comments on the PET FAQ, but I've lost Larry Anderson's e-mail address. Accordingly I am posting it here, with apologies to all who don't wish to read it. > WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? > > The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing MOS > Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its > microprocessor, the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in > series' the first series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the > modern 4000 and 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is > the SuperPET. What about the 8200 Series? I am not sure of the differences between this, the 8000 series and the 500/700 (B/P) series - see my post earlier this week. I have also heard that the 8200 series runs BASIC 4.5, but mine runs 4.0. [...] > Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): > PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) > - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys I dispute this. The 2001 xN, of which we had several at school, had the new ROMs, the new motherboard (using 2332 ROM chips) but the small keyboard and the built in C2N. This was the essential difference between the N and B machines. > - Upgrade ROMs > - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. > - many with clearer green on black displays I thought all the N and B machines had green screens - we even had one straight 2001 (old ROM) with a green screen. > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed Was this not only available as an upgrade? > PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) > - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) > - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. Our green-screened old-ROM machine was labelled CBM, but was again a small keyboard/internal tape machine. Otherwise I remember little about the B machines > PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) I wasn't aware of a small keyboard 4000 series. Interesting. > - 4.0 ROMs > - molded plastic top > 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') > - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns > - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. > 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) Can it?!? I wasn't aware of this. You can restrict the area in which it prints on the screen to an arbitrary rectangle, but it doesn't behave like the 40-column machines in that the screen is still physically 80-column, it doesn't handle wrapped text, etc. The 8200 series could be set from 80 to 40 columns by unsoldering and moving two chips. I haven't done this to mine yet... [...] At this point you must mention the 8296 and 8296D! [... SUPERPET ...] > MOTHERBOARD SERIES > > 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) > IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ > ! # ! #! > ! # ! #! > ! # exp ! #! exp > ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus > ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! > ! # ! #! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ROMS ! ! ! > ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! >tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! > #1 # ! #2 # ! > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ The left hand board is a hybrid of the original motherboard (of which there were no fewer than _four_ versions). Remember the original motherboard used 2 kilobyte (800 Hex) ROM chips (6540s in most, 2316s in some). The ROMS were therefore not F E D C A B 9 but F8 F0 E D8 D0 C8 C0 The righthand motherboard was the 2000B and some of the 3000 - the tape ports were swapped on the 2000N and other 3000 AFAIK. > 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) > IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ > ! # # tape > ! # # #2 > ! R exp bus # ! > ! A #! 2000 Series > ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k > ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] > ! M R B ! > ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series > ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k > ! O S E ! > ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series > ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* > ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] > +--------------------+ 8200 series: Again this basic format, but rearranged so the separate keyboard mod is sensible. 128k RAM on motherboard of which 96k usable (?). > WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? > > Original ROMs > Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are > limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine > language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory > location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for > lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a > while to compile them) Some of these were not bugs but features. Peeking and poking in upper memory (thresholds vary!) were disabled to stop people looking at the ROMS. In the E page are some I/O addresses, so it is re-enabled from there upwards... The only other genuine bugs I came across on my own machine (my first ever computer was a PET - original ROMs, 13th birthday present in 1980) were one in screen editing, and the machine crashes instead of giving the "too many files" error. [...] > Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. Only in 8000 series and fat 40, AFAIK. The small screen 4000 series did not have the new screen controller or many of the new graphics features. [...] > HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? > > The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is available on all > PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a BRK > instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), most people > enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. TIM stood for Terminal Interface Monitor, according to my manual. [...] > WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? > > This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically break a > computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can > potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other mechanical > units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat > commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. > History of 'the killer poke' [ Explanation with one or too inaccuracies has been snipped ] The old "video controller" could not be put into a faster or a slower mode. It was discrete TTL, and simply read the screen memory, shoved it through the character ROM, and sent it to the monitor. It would not have affected printing speed even if you had speeded it up. The old PETs were slow because the SOFTWARE of the print character routine waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the screen memory. This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which would have resulted in random pixels (snow) being illuminated on the screen. There was an input on one of the I/O chips which was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when to access the video RAM. The famous poke was actually to another register of the I/O chip, and configured this input as an output. The older pets didn't mind (much!), and the print character routine saw the screen as always available, but on the later ones with the new video controller, this conflicted with another output and caused the video controller chip to do a wobbly (and could even have burnt out one or the other). [...] > IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 NO!!!!!! Peek(50000) will only be zero on the original old ROM pets! > CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? > > With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from > the user port... > > Insert Video Diagram here.... Don't use the one published in "The PET Revealed" by Nick Hampshire. It doesn't work. [...] <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 18:45:56 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7A57.F44CFBB7.36@siva.bris.ac.uk> From: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:57:36.60 To: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" CC: Subj: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths >Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not >at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 >room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, >but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd >probably love to have one. That's no excuse! :-). When I got my first minicomputer I knew absolutely nothing about them (I'd never used a front panel, had only vague ideas on how a processor worked at gate level, etc). I suspect the rest is true of some other serious collectors on this list. Still, I sat down with the machine, and even more importantly the service manual, and I figured it out. It didn't take that long. And I didn't have a group of experts to turn to, either. -tony From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 22 12:51:58 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <199707221748.MAA23538@challenge.sunflower.com> Well I've done that too. Like with my Tandy Model4's, which I didn't know anything about. But at least I knew it as all there. The places I get my stuff, never have anything like this. You find me one, and well, if I can afford it, I'll have a stab. Be a good reason for me to learn unix. ---------- > From: PDP11 Hacker ..... > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths > Date: Tuesday, July 22, 1997 1:45 PM > > From: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:57:36.60 > To: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" > CC: > Subj: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths > > >Wanna here a crying shame!? I only collect micros, simply because I'm not > >at all familiar with Unix, Vax, or any flavor thereoff. I have an 18X24 > >room in the basement of my house devoted to not just storing my collection, > >but having it setup and running. If I knew more about these machines, I'd > >probably love to have one. > > That's no excuse! :-). When I got my first minicomputer I knew absolutely > nothing about them (I'd never used a front panel, had only vague ideas on > how a processor worked at gate level, etc). I suspect the rest is true > of some other serious collectors on this list. > > Still, I sat down with the machine, and even more importantly the service > manual, and I figured it out. It didn't take that long. And I didn't have a > group of experts to turn to, either. > > -tony > From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 18:56:39 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7A59.7361C1B3.1@siva.bris.ac.uk> From: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" 22-JUL-1997 17:47:54.16 To: MX%"classiccmp@u.washington.edu" CC: Subj: Minicomputer Storage Myths > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E >Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the >argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one >word: "hogwash". Absolutly! My parents (who have to put up with and store most of my little collection) don't like storing micros (in fact they moan for days when I bring home a TRS-80 or some such), but don't seem to mind the PDP11's/PDP8's etc anything like as much. The reason is simple. Micros are a pain to store. You can't easily stack them (the ones at the bottom get mangled, the pile slips over, etc). Monitors are worse. But minicomputers (generally) come in 19" boxes that either go into a 6' (or taller!) cabinet, or get stacked up in a pile in the corner. They are easy to store. The floor area taken up by a 6' rack is not much larger than the area taken by a micro, BTW... > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good >call! I hadn't thought of that one... I've considered designing a bed with 3 6U or 9U rack bays under it. In the UK you can get beds with storage drawers under them, but one _designed_ for computers would be somewhat interesting... > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for >transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 >for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just >got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays >in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). A large estate car (Station wagon?) will carry a _lot_ of minicomputer hardware. I've been in one which contained : A PDP8/e A PDP11/44 A Sun 3/260 (on its side, on top of the PDP's) A PPL graphics display + trackball A northstar Horizon (OK, a micro, but in a 19" rack) An Acorn System 4 (ditto) A _lot_ of spare boards, drives, heads, etc Service manuals, printsets, etc. No problem at all. > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the >six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen >machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- >fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter >method" of space management. Odd... My parents _like_ big rack cabinets - in fact they grab them for me to put my machines in. Maybe I'm just lucky. > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out >to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are >doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. That's exactly why I started. I realised (10 years ago) that nobody was preserving the recent history of computing, and it was going to be lost for ever. So I did something. I started collecting and restoring computers. >| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -tony From impeesa at arrakis.es Tue Jul 22 05:07:13 1997 From: impeesa at arrakis.es (Sergio Izquierdo García) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner Message-ID: <33D48651.4860@arrakis.es> Hello all, I own a Honeywell 716 Minicomputer, in running order. It?s a general purpose 16-bit machine, with 128 KB of ferrite core memory, a cassette tape device, a front panel as main console, and an ASR-33 Teletype as operator's console. There were other peripherals, such as line printers, fixed disks, card reader-puncher, high-speed paper tape reader, 9" tape decks... but I only own the basic system. The system was designed (aprox.) in June 1972. Has anybody ever heard about such machine? I?ve spent some time looking through the net, and looks like I?m the only one I own that system. Perhaps Honeywell didn?t made lots of them, like DEC did with PDP's. I?ve read somewhere (don?t know if it?s true) that first nodes in Arpanet were Honeywell DDP 516. I think my system is the next model (Honeywell DDP 716). In fact, mine can execute H-516's instructions set. I also heard U.S.Navy used these systems for shot calculations. If anybody has any information about the Honeywell DDP 516 or 716 machines, please email me. I?m looking for somebody who worked with those systems or even better, somebody who owns one of them. Thanks in advance. -- Sergio Izquierdo Garc?a ** Computer collector ** mailto: impeesa at arrakis dot es From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jul 22 13:00:46 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221642.AA26026@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: <199707221800.TAA11407@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Ok Carl, You have me feeling guilty now and thinking of more creative storage practices so I can keep the limited PDP stuff I have. > For the most part, your typical minicomputer fits securely in a 19" > wide rack. They're typically either around 5.5" or 11" high, or there- > abouts, and they're usually 22-30" deep with some going a little > deeper. They stack nicely for the most part as all the surfaces are > at right angles to one another. They do weigh a certain amount, but > usually do not top 100 pounds or so. Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you get with a micro. > I noticed that one chap has installed his pdp11 under his bed; good > call! I hadn't thought of that one... I know a guy who has computers under all of the beds in his parents house. We have a plinth around the base of our bed which means you can't easily get or see under it, but... my wife Michelle has problems lifting the bed so it might be the perfect place for emergency storage :-) > Kevan has room in his loft for a half-dozen minis or so (looked > at the pictures) once he gets things organised (sorry, Kevan) with > space left over. Your right I probably do, but I do want to get a couple of large desks so I can put my Apollo and MG-1 on them as well as have room for the odd micro I am playing with at the time. I guess there will be room under the desk like there is under my current desk for two 4/110's and an SMS 1000 (aka PDP 11/23) (Getting things organised has started now.) > The ultimate space-management tool in dealing with minis is the > six-foot rack. In one of them you can mount an easy half-dozen > machines; if you share peripherals, they can all be used too. Un- > fortunately, my wife drew the line at that one, so I use the "scatter > method" of space management. I used to have computers all around the house, but since having the loft done they all HAVE to be up there now. > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out > to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are > doing it. > The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. I don't get to hear about many minis but when I do I contact people who I think will be interested in them. This mailing list will be the first to hear of any. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From thedm at sunflower.com Tue Jul 22 13:12:36 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (Bill Girnius) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Help me out here, PDP-11 Message-ID: <199707221809.NAA24630@challenge.sunflower.com> This seems to be the favorite from what I can tell from the many discussions of Mini's. If I could get a hold of one of these, what parts do I need, what can I use it for and how much should I have to pay for it? Please feel free to email me personally if you do not wish to clutter the list. Bill Girnius thedm@sunflower.com From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 19:27:04 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7A5D.B2F59FFB.3@siva.bris.ac.uk> >Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy >Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real >pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? Put them on top of piles of minicomputers :-). Seriously, I _have_ used chipboard/shelf brackets to make 'tunnels' that fit over the crazier shaped machines (PETs, etc), so that I can stack other things on top. If you do this, and decide to run the machines that inside the tunnels, then please add fans or at least make sure air can get into the cooling vents. >On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are >normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you >get with a micro. Indeed. I have a large pile of DEC printsets + A4 binders of user guides, etc. Mind you, the 8 IBM Techref manuals (PC, XT, AT vol1, AT vol2, O&A vol 1, O&A vol 2, Scientific O&A, PC-jr) take up quite a bit of space as well... >-- >Kevan -tony From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Tue Jul 22 13:50:16 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > >> [plea by Jeff Shirley elimiated for brevity...] > > When I was in Pasadena, Jeff Shirley was a never-ending reliable source > for excellent-condition classic hardware, software, and knowledge. Good to hear. Apparently I have missed some of his messages along the way... > Over the past decade, Jeff Shirley has made great efforts to make > sure that truly classic DEC hardware, software, and systems find > a good home. Again, a good thing... > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here > in B.C. - machines with full toggle-and-light front panels - and > I'm unable to give them away. Repeated posts of the hardware lists > to "classiccmp" have yielded virtually no interest, outside of a > couple of truly heroic collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. I'd love to have one. I've mentioned this to Paul (Pierce) and seem to recall him sending you a message. All I've got to do is figure out how to get one here... > Yet if I make > a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails > from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend over backwards > to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that > people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" > column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Think you've hit it on the head! But I would not call them "collectors", any more than the people who will only ever offer items through auction. These folk are just out for the quick $$, and have little enough interest in the machine or its history. They just want to claim that they have something that you don't and can get a lot of money for it! > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's > and DG mini's only items for the junk heap? (Outside the efforts of > me, Jeff Shirley, and a couple heroic folks in Rhode Island, that is?) Now hold up here guy! Kind of the 'broad brush' approach don't you think? This passtime ("hobby" if you must) tends to take cooperation on both sides to make things work! I send Jeff a note this morning about the manuals. I had not contacted him earlier due to a direct inferrance in his posting that he *did not want to ship them* ! We'll see if that has changed. I just can't justify a romp from Oregon to Southern California for a set of manuals. I get quite a bit of gear shipped to me, but it takes some effort on *both* sides! Having a PDP-8/i system shipped out from Wisconsin set me back nearly $2k, but I considered it to be worthwhile, and the person that had it worked with me on the shipping arrangements. Some folk make it feel like a *major* event to get a few pieces or books put into a box and hauled to the local post. I've only got so much time and patience for dealing with situations like that. Please keep in mind, that it is only in the *very rare* case that any of us ever "give something away". There is almost always some cost on both sides, be it fuel, shipping, time, effort, or what have you. There perhaps more than anything is what defines a 'true' collector. How much 'cost' are you willing to invest, without always getting something tangible in return. I'd ramble (rave) on, but I suspect its time to get down from the soapbox. Besides I still need to finish sorting and cataloging a truckload of Dec and Sun gear I rescued this weekend. (and I suspect this connection is going to drop any second now...) -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From BNICALEK at aol.com Tue Jul 22 14:15:38 1997 From: BNICALEK at aol.com (BNICALEK@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: How do I Unsubscribe From This List Server? HELP! Message-ID: <970722151352_1347326444@emout06.mail.aol.com> I've been trying to do this over the last few days, and still can't figure it out... Bryan Nicalek bnicalek@aol.com From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Tue Jul 22 15:22:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Help me out here, PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <199707221809.NAA24630@challenge.sunflower.com> from "Bill Girnius" at Jul 22, 97 01:12:36 pm Message-ID: <9707221922.AA15235@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1463 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970722/e9309c1c/attachment-0001.ksh From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 22 14:43:36 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: PET FAQ Message-ID: <199707221543_MC2-1B64-691B@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk >I have some comments on the PET FAQ, but I've lost Larry Anderson's e-mail address. Accordingly I am posting it here, with apologies to all who don't wish to read it.< I believe it is foxnhare@goldrush.com I've already sent him e-mail, directing him to Jim Brain's "Canonical List of Commodore Products" which mentions a number of computer and printer models he missed. I also mentioned the FAQ that Jim maintains on various Commodore topics, although I assume he's familiar with that. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 22 14:43:33 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: HHC's? Message-ID: <199707221543_MC2-1B64-6919@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Mike has contacted the company with the HHCs and there is a guy there counting up all the available units. Mike and I worked out a deal of $1600 for 200 units, which puts the base price per unit at $8 before< Again, bravo for undertaking this effort. Once we all get our units, we'll probably need a separate listserv to discuss them, swap programs and such. If folks have access to the internet (usenet) newsgroups, I know of one which is virtually inactive and could easily be hijacked for this purpose. ;-] Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Tue Jul 22 14:43:39 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minis not "trendy" enough Message-ID: <199707221543_MC2-1B64-691D@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> a mention that I have a front-panel IMSAI I get hundreds of emails from collectors and pseudo-collectors-wannabes who would bend overbackwards to pay me good money for it. Are the only machines that people collect trendy micros that have been featured in the "collectible" column of the _LA Times_ and the like? Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for the junk heap?<< >I can't speak for everyone, but for some of us the problem isn't that PDP-11's aren't "trendy" enough, the problem is space. I would love to< This is THE critical fact. Go into an antique store sometime, and look at the prices. You'll see some little knicknack for $300, and then you'll see a huge, 150-year old carved mahogany wardrobe closet for-- $260? The fact is EVERYONE has room for the small knicknacks, but few people have room for the wardrobe closets. Similarly, I can (and some day, probably will) decorate my office with cute little ZX-80s, Mattel Aquarius, CGP-115-type printer plotters and the like, scattered around for people to look at as curiousities (and ask about, if they're foolish enough to get me started); but, what would I do with a mini or an IBM 360 if I had one? Not that preserving some of the larger systems isn't a worthwhile effort, but I think most people would echo W.C. Fields comparing women to elephants: "I like to look at them, but I wouldn't want to own one." From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Tue Jul 22 17:22:44 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACB1@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> A very complete Commodore ROM Geneology is in MICRO Issue 41, October '81. I have a copy in my PET Service Reference Guide, but it's 4 pages of tables and has handwritten additions that would be difficult to OCR. If you're a PET fan you might have this issue around anyway. By the way, the Service Reference Guide is a priceless piece; all schematics and test instructions, plus diagnostic cassettes and floppies. I have most of the Commodore "Techtopics" monthly bulletins also. Kai > ---------- > From: Larry Anderson & Diane Hare[SMTP:foxnhare@goldrush.com] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Preliminary PET FAQ > > I figured I'd shoot this by you guys as I am getting closer to putting > it on my web site. I am sure I will get some good criticism from you > all. If you have any additions/suggestions or additional questions to > include, let me know. > > I also plan also to add in a couple texts on disk drive usage some PET > memory maps (gee there are barely any PET maps on the net!) and if I > don't find a link to one, an overview of Commodore PET BASIC (applies > to > 64 also). > > (view with a monospaced font for best results) > > THE COMMODORE PET COMPUTER > FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS FILE - VERSION 1.0beta > --------------------------------------------- > BY LARRY ANDERSSON, > COMMODORE COLLECTOR AND PET ENTHUSIAST > --------------------------------------------- > > WHAT MODELS OF THE PET ARE THERE? > > The PET line was Commodore's first computer line after purchasing > MOS > Technologies the primary design of the computer (as well as its > microprocessor, > the 6502) was by Chuck Peddle. The line was labeled in series' the > first > series, the 2001 series, the european 3000 series, and the modern > 4000 > and > 8000 series, and the final single unit 9000 series which is the > SuperPET. > > 9" display units (40 column x 25 line character only display): > PET 2001series: > Original PET: > - Steel case - Internal 'datasette' cassette tape > drive > - Blue on black 9" display - Small 'calculator style' keyboard > - Small shipment with 4k, most with 8k RAM > - Original ROMs > Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): > PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was > shipped > with) > - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys > - Upgrade ROMs > - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. > - many with clearer green on black displays > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) > - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) > - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) > - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. > PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= > RAM) > - 4.0 ROMs > - molded plastic top > 12" displays - updated video controller (prone to the 'killer poke') > - internal piezo speaker, audible startup, and right margin sound. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET/CBM 40xx (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > - 40 x 25 display, upgradable to 80 columns > - lower case availabe by CHR$(14) which also changes line spacing. > 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) > CBM 80xx > - 80 x 25 display, powers-up in upper/lower case. > - buisness xx key keyboard > - later versions had 64k & 96k RAM expansion board options. > - 4.0 ROMs > PET SP9000 SuperPET (or Micro Mainframe) > - 80 x 25 display - 6809 co-processor board > - 96k RAM - True RS-232 interface > - Multiple charactersets (for APL, etc.) > - Avalability of disk Based languages > > MOTHERBOARD SERIES > > 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) > IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ > ! # ! #! > ! # ! #! > ! # exp ! #! exp > ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus > ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! > ! # ! #! > ! ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > ! ROMS ! ! ! > ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! > ! ! ! ! > tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! > #1 # ! #2 # ! > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ > > 4000/8000 series (12" CRT) > IEEE user tape #1 > +------####-####--##-+ > ! # # tape > ! # # #2 > ! R exp bus # ! > ! A #! 2000 Series > ! M 9 #! circa 1977/78 Max RAM - 8k > ! A #! [daughterboard exp to 32k] > ! M R B ! > ! E O C ! 3000 & 4000 Series > ! M M D ! circa 1979/80 Max RAM - 32k > ! O S E ! > ! R F ! 4000 & 8000 Series > ! Y ! circa 1981 Max RAM - 32k* > ! spkr! [daughterboard exp to 96k] > +--------------------+ > > WHAT VERSION OF ROMS DO I HAVE ON MY PET? > > The PET/CBM line had three major ROM revisions as well as a few > minor > ones, > you cannot reliably determine the ROMs by looking at the outside of > the PET > (unless it has a large monitor). Fortunately there is an easy way > to > distinguish the three various versions by just turning on the > computer. > Depending on how your start-up message looks you can determine the > ROM > version: > > *** COMMODORE BASIC *** - Original ROMs sometimes referred to as > 2.0* > ROMs. > (only found in the older calculator > keyboard style > PETs) Occupy $C000-$FFFF > > ### COMMODORE BASIC ### - Commonly known as the 'Upgrade ROMs' > sometimes > referred to as 2.0 or 3.0 ROMs depending > on > who > you ask. Occupy $C000-$FFFF > > *** COMMODORE BASIC 4.0 *** - 4.0 ROMs The only ROMs that will work > on > large-screen PETs. Occupy $B000-$FFFF > > * Some people contend that BASIC version 1.0 never made it out of > beta > development and the PET line started with version 2.0 ROMs... > Commodore > on the other hand usually refers to the 'Upgrade ROMs' as V2, or > 2.0. > For the sake of sanity in this FAQ I will refer to them as > original > and > upgrade ROMs, and as for an opinion I will go with the company's > numbering > (which leaves V 3.0 out of the picture). > > WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? > > Original ROMs > Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. > Arrays > are > limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no > machine > language > monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory > location > 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for > lower > case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a > while to > compile them) > > Upgrade ROMs > Many Original ROM bugs were squashed. BASIC commands and > capabilities > very > much like the Commodore 64's. Now includes a tiny ML monitor and > IEEE-488 > disk operability. Easter Egg - enter WAIT 6502,x to see MICROSOFT!' > displayed > on the screen x number of times. > > 4.0 ROMs* > Addition of direct Disk operation commands DLOAD, DSAVE, COPY, > HEADER, > etc. > Ability to repeat cursor control characters by holding down keys. > Reserved > DOS error-channel variables: DS,DS$. Added screen 'window' > formatting > control > characters. > * The small screen-and large screen versions of these ROMs differ > and > some software developed for the small-screen 4.0 ROMS crash on the > large > screen units. This is due to the necessary changes made for the new > video > controller of the 12" display PETs. > > CAN I RUN VIC-20, 64, 128, PLUS/4, OR C-16 SOFTWARE ON MY PET? > > Maybe. Any program that is all BASIC that does not use hi-res > graphics or > sound and contains no POKES should work readily on a PET. Of course > if it > contains POKEs, sound commands, and Machine Language conversion will > be > nessasary. If it rely on more than one voice of sound, hi-res > grpahics, > programmable character sets or color, it may not be worth converting > because > those features aren't present on the PETs. > > NOTE: Many early VIC, 64, and Plus/4 BASIC games and programs were > converted > PET games. > > HOW DO I GET 64 (VIC, PLUS/4, ETC.) BASIC PROGRAMS ON MY PET? > > Unlike the later 8-bit Commodores,the PET always loads programs into > the > memory address they were saved at (i.e. no loading ,8 and ,8,1 as > on > the > later machines), which means BASIC programs saved on VICs, 64s, > 128s, > etc, > will not load in the right location on the PET to be seen by the > BASIC > interpreter. PET BASIC starts at location 1025 ($0401 in hex) and > the > later > Commodore machines have different, higher starting locations. (see > table x) > > There are a couple ways to get a BASIC program to load properly into > memory, > > Disk Track/Sector Editors: > My preferred method of conversion is using a disk track/sector > editing > utility > to change the 'load address bytes' of the file directly on the disk. > > This is > not an easy process to 'explain' and I hope to write it up at a > later > time. > > BASIC Line Relocation Method: > Here is a way to get the BASIC editor to do it for you; of course > you > will > need to have an upgrade ROM or later PET (which has a ML monitor) or > load in > a monitor for your original ROM PET first. It involves 'linking' > the > higher > located BASIC program to a line starting in regular BASIC, when you > delete > that line, the editor will move your program to where it belongs in > memory. > > 1. Enter NEW to erase any programs already in memory. > 2. Enter: 0 REM > 3. LOAD the program you want converted (i.e. LOAD"program name",1 > for > tape) > 4. When loaded, enter the machine language monitor by entering SYS > 1024 > 5. display the first part of the BASIC you first typed: > M 0401 0408 > 6. Change the line-link to the memory location of the program to be > moved; > use cursor keys to move up and change the first two two-digit > numbers to > read: > :0401 01 08 00 00 8F 00 00 00 > ^^ ^^ (for a program from a 64, otherwise, see table x) > 7. Press return to change the bytes then enter X to exit the > monitor. > 8. Type LIST, you should see the 0 REM followed by the program. > 9. Enter 0 to delete line 0 which will move the BASIC to its proper > place. > 10. Save the program. > > TABLE X - Load Addresses for BASIC files: > > Saved under Start of BASIC > Computer load load change > Model/ addr. addr. bytes > configuration dec. hex. to: > ------------- ---- ----- ----- > PET/CBM 1025 $0401 N/A > VIC-20 unex. 4097 $1001 01 10 > VIC-20 +3k 1025 $0401 N/A > VIC-20 8k+ 4609 $1201 01 12 > Commodore 64 2049 $0801 01 08 > B-128 0003 $0003 * > Plus/4-C16 4097 $1001 01 10 > Plus/4-C16** 8193 $2001 01 20 > C128 mode 7169 $1C01 01 1C > C128 mode** 16384 $4001 01 40 > > * The BASIC RAM of the B128 is located in a separate bank of RAM > memory, > which starts at a VERY low address and will be difficilt to > convert > without > a track/sector editor or saving it special on a B-128 itself. > ** When hi-res GRAPHICS mode space has been allocated. > > WHAT KIND OF DRIVES CAN I USE? > Tape Drives > Tape Drives for the VIC, 64 and 128 work well on the PET. In fact > you can > hook up 2 tape drives on the PET (the second connector is inside > the > case, > on the edge of the motherboard.) and can be accessed as device #2. > Commodore Models: > SANYO - First drives, power supply section cut out and modified > for > PET datasette cable/plug. > C2N - Box look, black or cream colored case. > 1530 - Rounded low-profile, counter & 'save' indicator light. > Commodore IEEE-488 5.25" models > 2020 - (first drive design, bugs may be present) > 2040 - Updated ROMS, resembles a 1541 format & readbable on > 1541/71s > 4040 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. > 2031 - Read/Write compatible with 1541/1571s. > 8050 - Single Sided/Quad Density format, 512k per disk side. > 8250 - Double Sided/Quad Density format, 1mb per disk > SFD-1001 - Same as 8250, but single drive unit. > Commodore IEEE-488 8" > 8280 - 1 MB or 512k per Drive (little info on this one...) > Commodore IEEE-488 Hard Disk Drives > 9060 - Five Magabyte Hard Disk Unit > 9090 - Seven Megabyte Hard Disk Unit > 3rd party > MSD-SD1 ** The MSD SD1&2 offer both IEEE-488 and > MSD-SD2 ** VIC/64/128/+4 Serial bus interfaces. > Modified 1541 > PRINTERS? > Commodore Model IEEE-488 Printers > 4022 > 4023 > 8023 > Some companies produced printers with IEEE-488 interface options > (Epson was one) > > HOW CAN I GET PET PROGRAMS FROM DISK TO TAPE? > > You can just LOAD the program from tape and and SAVE them to disk > one > after > another, of course, if you are using a VIC/64/128, etc. the loading > address > will get messed up. Fortunately there is a wonderful fily copy > utility > available for PET (4.0), VIC, and Commodore 64/128, called > 'Unicopy'. > Unicopy (written by the famous Commodore enthusiast, Jim > Butterfield) > allows > you to copy from disk directly to tape. This of course preserves > the > loading > address and makes things mauch easier. (also it performs multiple > file copies > instead of just one program at a time). > > HOW CAN I GET PET TAPE PROGRAMS TO DISK? > > Again you can do LOAD and SAVE as I mentioned or use a handy little > utility I > had discovered for the 64. This program will automatically LOAD > each > file off > of tape and subsequently SAVE it to disk and continue until you stop > it (or a > disk error occurs when it attempts to save a file with the same name > as one > already on disk, disk full, or end of tape. > > HOW DO I HEAR/PLAY SOUND ON MY PET? > > Like many other microcomputers of the time the PET was not > originally > designed > to produce sound. A few methods of sound generation have been > developed but > the most popular employs the use of parallel user port pin M which > generates.... > The latest 4000/8000 (large screen PET) motherboards have a built-in > piezo > speaker and also have a bell sound accessible with a print: chr$(7) > > Sound Interface Diagrams here... > > WHAT ARE THE BASIC COMMANDS FOR MY PET? > For the most part the BASIC on the 64 is identical to the upgrade > ROM > PETs and > it only varys by a few commands and features between original and > 4.0 > ROMs. > On the other hand the 'memory map', the locations you POKE numbers > into, vary > quite a bit between ROM revisions. Memory Maps are available for > all > the > versions... > > HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? > > The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some) is > available on all > PETs but the original ROM version. TIM is invoked by executing a > BRK > instruction by SYSing any memory location containing a zero (0), > most > people > enter SYS 1024, as it almost always contains a 0. > > WHAT ARE THE COMMANDS FOR THE M/L MONITOR? > G - Execute M/L: G programaddress (i.e. G 033C) > L - Load: L "filename",dev (i.e. L "PACMAN",08) > S - Save: S "filename",dev,startaddress,endaddress > (i.e. S "FLASH ATTACK",02,027A,2000) > R - Display Processor Registers > X - Exit Tiny Mon > M - Memory Display: M startaddress endaddress (i.e. M 0400 04A0) > : - Modify Memory (supplied in memory dumps using the M command) > ; - Modify Processor Registers (supplied in the processor register, > P > command) > > CAN I GET A BETTER M/L MONITOR FOR MY PET? > > Yes, there are two that I know of that are readily avaiable. The > most > popular > (and universal among the Commodore 8-bits) is Jim Butterfield's > Supermon. > There are versions available for all ROM revisions including > original > ROM PETS > and offer a mini Assembler and Disassembler among other useful > memory/ML > commands. The other, similar to Supermon is called Extramon. There > are other > versions many of wich are commercial but I have little information > on > them. > > > I HAVE A PROGRAM THAT CAN USE JOYSTICKS, WHERE CAN I GET/MAKE THEM? > > The PET was not initially designed for joysticks but a determined > user > had > devised a dual-joystick interface employing the parallel port. This > interface > allows you to plug in standard Atari/Commodore compatible > joysticks.... > > Interface Diagram Here > > HOW COME MY PET CAN'T READ A TAPE FROM MY PLUS/4 OR COMMODORE 16 OR > VISA-VERSA? > > You are quite a collector, aren't you? When Commodore designed the > Plus/4 and > Commodore 16 they broke alot of standards they had previously > established for > their 8-bits (and fortunately went back to in the C128); besides the > plug > designs, they changed the sound-frequency of the signals used to > record on > tape. Though the the format is identical to the PET and the other > 8-bits, > the sound is only readable on the Plus/4 and Commodore 16. My > sggestion would > be to record the program on disk (1541) and then read it on a 4040 > or > 2031, or > copy them from the 1541 to tape using a 64 or 128. > > WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT? > > This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL physically > break a > computer! Of course other commands and methods are known that can > potentially cause damage (usually to disks, hard drives or other > mechanical > units), but this is the most notable mainly because it was a command > somewhat > commonly used and it affects solid-state circuitry. > > History of 'the killer poke' > When the first PETs (small 9" screen) models came out, the display > wasnt all > that fast. It wasn't too long before someone learned they could > impove the > character printing speed via a poke to location 59458; which would > set > the > video controller into a faster mode. It was a noticible improvement > of speed > on programs using PRINT often, it was kind of like a free upgrade. > It > was > mentioned in a few publications and used in many programs that > relied > on > printing to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor > Magazine, > a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the command in one > of > the > 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue which you could insert > into > their > game "joust" to make it play faster. > > Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs, > they > had >  improved display speed which made that POKE unnecessary. An > unfortunate side > effect was that the POKE to 59458 still caused the already faster > controller > to run even faster, in fact too-fast, which could result in damaging > the PETs > video curcuitry when left running. I discovered it by accident > after > our > school received some large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen > starts to > warp after about the third line and the display stops around the > fifth, the > keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this mode, the only > solution > is to turn it off, quickly! Fortunately none of the school's PETs > were > damaged due to this POKE. Later Cursor Magazine published a 'fix' > that would > allow older PETs to use the poke and keep the large-screen units > from > frying. > Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have this > fix. > > Prevention > Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games) when running > them > on a > large-screen PET and be ready with the power switch when you first > run > it. > I have usually found the 'killer poke' statement looking like this: > > POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32. > > The fix is to put an if-then conditional to determine if the poke is > needed > for the PET running the program, here is the code: > > IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 > > CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? > > With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite > singnal > from > the user port... > > Insert Video Diagram here.... > > WHAT ARE THE PINOUTS SO I CAN BUILD AN IEEE-488 CABLE FOR MY PET TO MY > DRIVE. > > WHERE CAN I GET SOFTWARE FOR MY PET? > > WHERE CAN I GET CONNECTORS THAT FIT THE USER/IEEE-488 PORTS? > > IS THERE A MODEM AVAILABLE FOR MY PET? > > I know of only one company that prosuced a modem and IEEE-488 > interface, the > company is TNW, and I think they also built the Commoodre 8010, an > acoustic > modem for the PET. I have some notes on using the device but have > never > actually seen one. > > Larry Anderson > > -- > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ > Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jul 22 18:11:49 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: Tim Shoppa's message of Tue, 22 Jul 1997 04:39:31 -0800 (PDT) References: <9707221139.AA13838@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: <199707222311.QAA08977@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Tim Shoppa writes: > Are classic minis, including PDP-11's and DG mini's only items for the > junk heap? No, but speaking for myself I am short on space at the moment (and don't see it getting better for a while), lacking organization (working on that one), short on time (which constrains both of the above), and short of space between my ears too (too doggone many learning experiences this last year or so and a medium-sized list of some I have yet to get to). This Sunday I told someone "you know, I sometimes think I should stop collecting and get to work with the stuff I have." Which is enough to fill one 10'x10' (figure 3mx3m) storage closet to where it's not too difficult to get to stuff and make a pretty good showing of boxed manuals and magnetic media in another. Certainly most of it needs some sort of work. And there are some minis in there amongst the micros: An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the moment but am keeping my eyes open. Two HP 3000/37 CPUs, and enough disk drives and other bits to make one of 'em work. Well, they're a little bit small for minis, at least if you consider just the CPU box. An HP Micro 3000GX, currently taking up space in my workroom, with a 7970E 1600BPI tape drive that gives the resident manager hives -- it's big and metal therefore it must be heavy, right? (I live in the apartment above her.) Can I call this a mini? It runs the same code that used to run on bigger 3000s, but it calls itself a "Micro" (and fits entirely in a little tower case that with packing material and box weighs 78 pounds -- what's that, 35kg?). Is it part of the colllection? Hard to say, I used to do real work on it, but I wouldn't part with it.... An HP 9000/520, but there we are straying away from minis into early 1980s supermicro/workstation sorts of things. Various manuals for the above, as well as other systems in the 3000 and 21xx families. Also manuals and print sets for a Nuclear Data ND812 mini. A few odd parts: HP 3000/III front door with panel (found this on a 19" rack at Foothill swap meet -- the guts were gone and I really don't need another empty 19" rack then or now); two HP 3000/CX front doors, goldenrod; probably other stuff that slips my mind right now. You may have noticed a preponderance of HP hardware in the above list. That is because it is what I know something about (have been doing stuff with 3000s for close to 20 years now, have dialed up 2000 time-shared BASIC systems way back when and know they are based on the 21xx-family CPUs (as are the early HP 1000 systems), and supported a product on the 9000/500 for a little while and came to appreciate its quirks). I don't know that much about DEC gear, and next to nothing about DG stuff -- never used it at all. Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't know. But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be micros than minis. There's another point in there too: I've consciously ignored DEC stuff (or passed it on to other more interested folks) for the simple reason that there seemed to me to be a pretty active community working on preserving it already! But DG stuff is another matter, I just haven't really noticed much of it or much discussion of it. OK Tim, you've guilt-tripped me...a little bit. But I'm still wondering what I could do with and learn from some of this stuff. What would I need to make a workable system? I expect the definition of "workable" is variable amongst the readership, but I could amuse myself for a while looking at an instruction set reference card and having Real Iron on which to toggle in a lights hack would be a nice bonus. (Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them. And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.) Maybe it takes more to interest other folks, like the ability to hook up and use terminal and/or storage devices. Maybe even load some sort of operating system if that's what was customary on these things; I'd probably want to get there someday myself. (Of course that poses its own problem of where to get the operating software.) I don't know, like I said I really don't know anything about DG hardware as it was used in practice -- my background is in DP/MIS, datacomm, HP 3000s, and nowadays sticking IP-protocol-suite stuff into Windows device drivers. Got any pointers to where we could learn more? -Frank McConnell From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 20:31:06 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT') In-Reply-To: <199707221453.AA14301@world.std.com> Message-ID: <199707230131.AA20889@interlock.ans.net> > The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and > magenta at various times and combinations. It seems to me that the PDP-11/60s were in red cabinets (in fact, introduced as "the Big Red Machine"). William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 21:12:43 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <009B7A59.7361C1B3.1@siva.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <199707230212.AA22618@interlock.ans.net> > A large estate car (Station wagon?) will carry a _lot_ of minicomputer > hardware. I've been in one which contained : I once delivered a PDP-11/34, 1 & 1/2 RK07 drives, roughly 20 RK07 disk packs, and lots of documentation, in a standard Ford Escort. Yes it was packed, but still quite decent. For those still confused, the 1/2 RK07 was just the actual drive mechanism. An entire RK07 is about 4 feet tall, the bottom is which is basically empty. William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Tue Jul 22 21:03:32 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221642.AA26026@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > In a few assorted threads I've seen under various names like "RSTS/E > Manuals" and "Minis not 'Trendy'", several folks have put forward the > argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one > word: "hogwash". > > Another guy gripes about putting a mini in his Honda Civic for > transport. My wife did just that when she came home with a DG Nova 1200 > for me a few years back; it fit very comfortably in the trunk. I just > got back from a trip to the US Midwest with two minis in two 6' bays > in the back of my minivan (story coming on my website). I should've known better than to say that about my Honda. My point was that Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or transportation charges? Plus he's in Canada, and you'd have to deal with customs, which I'm sure can be gotten around. Storing the stuff is no problem as I have probably a ton of rackmount mini and s-100 equipment in my garage right now, and I love the stuff and enjoy collecting it. Getting it to my garage is another story. I would absolutely love to take a Nova off of Tim's hands but I'm not willing to spend the amount of money it would take to ship the equipment. > I keep three minicomputers (half-height Novas) on a kitchen counter > underneath our coffee-pot (I really should get a picture of that). I > also have a small rack with three of my pdp11s in it living in the > dining-room of our house - it makes a wonderful stand-up terminal > stand. Smaller racks can be utilised as end-tables. Hmmm, well that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. I for one would not want to subject my wife to that. She has problem enough with the garage full of crap. > The bottom line is that _it's not as big a deal as it's made out > to be_! It can be done, it should be done, and not enough people are > doing it. The machines are disappearing - and that's a shame. I agree. But some people have lines they draw with their collection. Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living space for the hobby. That's where I draw the line. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 21:32:18 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707230232.AA23225@interlock.ans.net> > Having a PDP-8/i system shipped out from Wisconsin set me back nearly $2k, > but I considered it to be worthwhile, and the person that had it worked > with me on the shipping arrangements. This amount seems quite excessive - you may have made the mistake of calling computer equipment "computer equipment". Let me explain (for the benefit of minicomputers everywhere). Freight companies charge mostly for what they are shipping, rather than how far or how much they are shipping. Computer equipment is shipped every day, and of course, some of it gets damaged. The freight companies have to pay for it (directly, or indirectly thru raised insurance costs). To cover for the inevitable damages, higher shipping rates are quoted. If some old computer is called "scrap electronics" (or oddly "transformers"), freight companies will quote rates quite low. After all, damaged scrap is still scrap - no insurance problems. For example, a guy I know shipped a 400 pound radio transmitter (BC-610, for you hams) from Houston to New York for under $200. Over 120 pounds or so, freight gets cheaper than UPS, RPS, or the other couriers. The catch is that you better crate the beasts up WELL, as they may get harse treatment. Building a crate for a six foot rack is not much of a hardship, as just about the cruddiest wood can be used. William Donzelli william@ans.net From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 21:45:54 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: <199707222311.QAA08977@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <199707230245.AA23623@interlock.ans.net> > An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no > memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, > though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one > day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the > moment but am keeping my eyes open. If you ever want cards in the future, I would start looking now. HP circuit boards are COMPLETELY gold plated (even under the green coating), and are loved by scrappers everywhere. > There's another point in there too: I've consciously ignored DEC stuff > (or passed it on to other more interested folks) for the simple reason > that there seemed to me to be a pretty active community working on > preserving it already! I must agree with you here. DEC makes great stuff (mostly), but so do some of the other guys. Personally, I am starting to shift into the IBM world, as it really has been ignored by historians (other than Paul Pierce (who must be laughing at us weenies and our problems storing minis and micros) and IBM itself). William Donzelli william@ans.net From allisonp at world.std.com Tue Jul 22 22:46:25 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: RL02 (was Questions about 'BOOT') Message-ID: <199707230346.AA27534@world.std.com> <> The PDP-11 were medium blue, light gray(officially it was grey #68) and <> magenta at various times and combinations. < On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail was rumoured to have remarked: > [...] Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact > is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or > transportation charges? Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.) > [...] that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife > could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. [...] > She has problem enough with the garage full of crap. Oddly enough, Diana and I have been together now for the better part of a decade, and while she occasionally grumbles about my hobby, she supports it because she knows that it's important (not just to me, but for a larger cause as well). I believe the use of the term "crap" comes from fundamental misunderstandings of our common computing history. Sad. > Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems > (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living > space for the hobby. It all depends upon how seriously we take our hobby, doesn't it. (That was merely an observation, _not_ an editorial comment!) For what it's worth, an IMSAI is just about twice the size of a pdp11/23. And less than a quarter of the CPU power. ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum | ICBM: N42:22 W71:47 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 22 23:09:28 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d58241.442453@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: % %I should've known better than to say that about my Honda. My point was %that Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact is, %who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or transportation %charges? Plus he's in Canada, and you'd have to deal with customs, which %I'm sure can be gotten around. Storing the stuff is no problem as I have %probably a ton of rackmount mini and s-100 equipment in my garage right %now, and I love the stuff and enjoy collecting it. Getting it to my %garage is another story. I would absolutely love to take a Nova off of %Tim's hands but I'm not willing to spend the amount of money it would %take to ship the equipment. I'd agree here with Sam. I'd be interested in a Nova (one of the machines I have dreamt about having) or even an eclipse, but I would have trouble paying for the transportation. If there're Novas or Eclipses around the Bay Area, I'd want to adopt them, but Canada's a little far away. %Hmmm, well that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife %could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. I for one %would not want to subject my wife to that. She has problem enough with %the garage full of crap. My wife has no problem (yet) with 'stuff' but paying to get them is what she doesn't quite like. Ben From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Tue Jul 22 23:09:24 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: DG Hardware Available In-Reply-To: <199707221345.AA25612@maddog.swec.com> References: <199707221345.AA25612@maddog.swec.com> Message-ID: <33d6832e.679489@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:45:31 -0400, Carl Friend wrote: % We'd better save these machines while we can; Data General was, %at its zenith only about 20% of the size of DEC, and its install- %base was similar in scope. These machines are _not_ common, remain %useable today, and are a joy to look at and run. Don't let the %opportunity pass. If I were a few dollars richer, I'd grab at the chance to own a DG machine (Nova/Eclipse - does anyone have the machine that was in 'soul of a new machine'?). If someone were getting rid of something like that in the Bay Area, I have a station wagon to carry such stuff. But anything out of the Bay Area is too difficult to get especially if it's really big. Ben From danjo at xnet.com Tue Jul 22 23:18:03 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Stacy C. Morang wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > What I'm amazed at is that I've got several thousands pounds of > > Data General Eclipse S/130's up here in B.C. - machines with full > > toggle-and-light front panels - and I'm unable to give them away. > > Repeated posts of the hardware lists to "classiccmp" have yielded > > virtually no interest, outside of a couple of truly heroic > > collectors/preservationists from the East Coast. > > I'd love to have one, but there's the usual two problems - one is that > B.C. is a really long way from Maine, and two, storage space (although if > you were on this corner of N. America I'd solve that one). > > I've always wanted something with a full panel, but 3 hr drives are > definitely about the limit. > > Now, if there was a bucket brigade..... > -stacy That's funny Stacy 8-) This is what I thought belonging to this group and the Classic Computer Rescue Squad was ALL about. I would like this to be a *normal* thing to do. Everyone who wants one - Talk to Tim. Tim puts a list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs view of shipping scrap across the boarder 8-) Sure - the hardest hit will be the first in the chain - but we ALL should be first at least ONCE! Then the next RS person in each direction goes to #1's location and we start splitting up the goodies. I am NOT saying you will get the item in 10 days. It might take months to sort it all out. If the first guy spends $200 on a truck and $100 on gas - so what - if he comes back with 30 boxes thats what $10 each? We got it as far as Washington or Oregon! The next guy spends $60 bucks on gas in his station wagon - ok - he gets 6 boxes and it comes to another $10. We would be in Idaho, Utah or California! The #1 guy gets to meet Tim - an honor in itself - but only really spent a weekend of time - he also gets some hardware of doc or boards or whatever - if he wants any - and if you set it up so the next crew is there to unload him - even better! In one weekend we could be almost a quarter across the US with some of it already delivered. The next weekend or even a month later (depending on storage 8-) the next leg goes. Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? Isaac and I have had a vision 8-) of a group of pickups and trailers all meeting in a cornfield in Nebraska with the associated "Chinese Fire Drill" of people running around sorting out shipments and maybe having a campfire or pot-luck dinner! God what a life it could be! You get to do a nice weekend drive - meet friends with the SAME interests as you - have a nice talk - do some drinking maybe and then back to the real world by Monday! Who could ask for more out of life? During the week set up to do it all over again, sort some shipments - meet people closer to you who can make it as a evening trip or even an overnighter. Poor over the docs you *said* you didn't want but - damn - that looks interesting. (Did I get wound up again?) BC -- My pen is at the bottom of a page, Which, being finished, here the story ends; 'Tis to be wished it had been sooner done, But stories somehow lengthen when begun. -- Byron From william at ans.net Tue Jul 22 23:43:36 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: DG Hardware Available In-Reply-To: <33d6832e.679489@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199707230443.AA28851@interlock.ans.net> > machine (Nova/Eclipse - does anyone have the machine that was in 'soul > of a new machine'?). I have only ever seen one Eclipse MV/8000, and it was a II (series two? What was the difference?). I could have bought it for a buck, I do not know what I was thinking... William Donzelli william@ans.net From dlw at neosoft.com Tue Jul 22 19:12:25 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation & HP 2000s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199707230510.AAA19990@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 22 Jul 97 at 23:18, Brett wrote: > That's funny Stacy 8-) This is what I thought belonging to this group and > the Classic Computer Rescue Squad was ALL about. [Stuff on the Classic Computer Rescue Squad's Chinese Fire Drill] I love it! I'd be more than happy to throw in and get a truck and make a weekend run if it meant that I could get some DEC, HP, DG or other equipment, meet other collectors, and it would really work out like that. My place isn't big but when it comes to computer equipment, I make room. Hey, the kids LIKE camping outside. :-) With all the talk on minis, anyone know where I can get an HP 2000 or any info about them? That was the first system I programmed on and all I have left of the experience is an HP 2000 BASIC Pocket Guide and some punch tapes. Surprised I still have those given it was over 20 years ago. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From william at ans.net Wed Jul 23 00:11:56 1997 From: william at ans.net (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner In-Reply-To: <33D48651.4860@arrakis.es> Message-ID: <199707230511.AA29800@interlock.ans.net> > I own a Honeywell 716 Minicomputer, in running order. It´s a general > purpose 16-bit machine, with 128 KB of ferrite core memory, a cassette > tape device, a front panel as main console, and an ASR-33 Teletype as > operator's console. That sounds pretty cool. That is also quite a great deal of core - lucky you. > I´ve read somewhere (don´t know if it´s true) that first nodes in > Arpanet were Honeywell DDP 516. I think my system is the next model > (Honeywell DDP 716). In fact, mine can execute H-516's instructions set. RCS/RI will (hopefully) have one of the ARPAnet machines in the near future, to go with our old NSFnet stuff. I believe the model number is 316. Take a look at the RCS/RI page (if you can not connect, try a different day, as the machine may be powered down). William Donzelli william@ans.net From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 00:19:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: HHCs (bad news) Message-ID: I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off. Due to a lack of communication within the company that had the units, they were all, in the words of Mike Westin who was the go-between in the deal, "shit-canned". The company simply threw them out because they did not know there was an offer tendered. On the positive side, there are still roughly 50-75 units still left within the company that are still being used by employees, and will be so for about the next two months. Mike is currently developing a new product for the company, at which time they will no longer use the remaining units, and they will then, hopefully, be sold to us. So for now, no HHCs. Its disappointing, mostly because the thought of all these nice systems being simply thrown out is a damn shame. However, we may yet be able to acquire the remaining units in a couple month's time. Stay tuned. Sorry all. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 00:47:54 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707230402.AAA00406@zephyr.cacm.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Carl R. Friend wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 19:03:32 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail was rumoured > to have remarked: > > > [...] Tim was complaining that nobody wanted the stuff, but the fact > > is, who wants to spend hundreds of dollars in shipping or > > transportation charges? > > Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who > care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- > term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you Sure, I'll just needlessly add to my current mountain of debt. There is a practical limit to what any individual can do or be expected to do. I'm not going to over-burden myself over a hobby. Sure I take it seriously, but again, I've set limits. Someone else is just going to have to cover for me. > > [...] that's all fine and dandy if you're a bachelor or your wife > > could care less what kind of crap you drag into the house. [...] > > She has problem enough with the garage full of crap. > > Oddly enough, Diana and I have been together now for the better > part of a decade, and while she occasionally grumbles about my hobby, > she supports it because she knows that it's important (not just to > me, but for a larger cause as well). > > I believe the use of the term "crap" comes from fundamental > misunderstandings of our common computing history. Sad. I believe your misunderstanding of my using the term "crap" comes from you taking me too literally. I love the stuff just as much as the next guy. But collectively, its a bunch of crap, just like a pile of stuff in the back yard in a corner would be called a pile of crap. If you saw my garage, you'd know why I refer to it as a pile of crap. Its a mess! There's stuff stacked haphazardly all over the place. Its a big pile of crap! :) > > Right now I'm not fully prepared to start taking in large systems > > (larger than S-100 rackmounts). I'm not going to give up my living > > space for the hobby. > > It all depends upon how seriously we take our hobby, doesn't it. Sorry if I can't be _Super Collector!_ Again, someone else will have to cover for me in this respect. Also, I'm just not as interested in older mini-computers as I am in micros. Micros take precedence because: a) I grew up in the age of the micro, b) they're easier to come by, c) they're normally easier to transport and store (yes they have odd shapes but generally they are smaller than a rackmount cabinet). When I own a warehouse, it will be filled with minis as well. Really though, I don't understand the point of arguing over this. Collect what you want. That's fine. Let me do the same. If my sole interest was, say, collecting Commodore 64's only with serial numbers starting with '1', that's my perogative. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 00:54:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges > a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs > view of shipping scrap across the boarder 8-) Sure - the hardest hit will > be the first in the chain - but we ALL should be first at least ONCE! Then > the next RS person in each direction goes to #1's location and we start > splitting up the goodies. I am NOT saying you will get the item in 10 > days. It might take months to sort it all out. If the first guy spends > $200 on a truck and $100 on gas - so what - if he comes back with 30 > boxes thats what $10 each? We got it as far as Washington or Oregon! The > next guy spends $60 bucks on gas in his station wagon - ok - he gets 6 > boxes and it comes to another $10. We would be in Idaho, Utah or > California! The #1 guy gets to meet Tim - an honor in itself - but only So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him incurred? > really spent a weekend of time - he also gets some hardware of doc or > boards or whatever - if he wants any - and if you set it up so the next > crew is there to unload him - even better! In one weekend we could be > almost a quarter across the US with some of it already delivered. The next > weekend or even a month later (depending on storage 8-) the next leg goes. Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I doubt it. > Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 > trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer > within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. > Isaac and I have had a vision 8-) of a group of pickups and trailers all > meeting in a cornfield in Nebraska with the associated "Chinese Fire > Drill" of people running around sorting out shipments and maybe having a > campfire or pot-luck dinner! God what a life it could be! You get to do > a nice weekend drive - meet friends with the SAME interests as you - have > a nice talk - do some drinking maybe and then back to the real world by > Monday! Who could ask for more out of life? During the week set up to do > it all over again, sort some shipments - meet people closer to you who can > make it as a evening trip or even an overnighter. Poor over the docs you > *said* you didn't want but - damn - that looks interesting. This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Jul 23 01:09:25 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals In-Reply-To: William Donzelli's message of Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:45:54 -0400 (EDT) References: <199707230245.AA23623@interlock.ans.net> Message-ID: <199707230609.XAA01934@daemonweed.reanimators.org> William Donzelli writes: > > An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no > If you ever want cards in the future, I would start looking now. HP > circuit boards are COMPLETELY gold plated (even under the green coating), > and are loved by scrappers everywhere. Good point. If you want to see something really scary in that regard, open up an HP 9000 series 5xx and look at the CPU boards. Those *really* look like gold, closer to solid than plated. I was looking (mostly for the memory) a bit more intensely a couple of years ago, and found that 2100 parts were also in demand to keep running systems running. > I must agree with you here. DEC makes great stuff (mostly), but so do > some of the other guys. Personally, I am starting to shift into the IBM > world, as it really has been ignored by historians (other than Paul > Pierce (who must be laughing at us weenies and our problems storing minis > and micros) and IBM itself). Yep. The mini world was kind of wide there for a while. I expect some of those machines really are gone forever. Has anyone here ever heard of a company called Digital Systems Corporation, based somewhere in (I think) the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC in the late 1970s, maybe into the 1980s? I worked on something of theirs once, called a Galaxy/5. Never heard of it or them since. Come to think of it, there could be good reasons for that, and it could be a good thing. Nah...we've got to keep the failures around too -- learning from mistakes is so much better when they're someone else's mistakes. -Frank McConnell From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jul 23 01:14:11 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: HHCs (bad news) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the > Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off. Gee, can you say Bait and Switch? He now has 400 units he KNOWS are worth over $4000! If he can get $10 -heck he can get $30 - That's $12000 worth! Oh ya - the deals off! Heck I would try for $50 each - Heck of a deal isn't it? Not blaming you Sam, but I am starting to think maybe we should cut our own deals with *bulk* owners. It seems we may be trying to put out the fire with gasoline 8-( He now thinks he has at east 300 *hungry* customers out there! BC From bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu Mon Jul 21 21:25:42 1997 From: bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu (Rob Bedeaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:24 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? Message-ID: <33d5b1230dc8015@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> Hi all: This is my first post to ClassicCMP. Let me just start by sayin it is great to see how much interest there is out there in different Classic Computers!! I recently aquired an Apple Lisa and was wondering if anyone out there also had a working model. So far, I have a copy of the Lisa Office System, the Lisa Tools, and MacWorks XL. What I'd like to find out is what other software for it was available and if anyone wants to get rid of it :) I know there is the workshop environment for programmin in Pascal, and I think a version of Unix and Basic were realeased. But what about Fortan? Also on the hardware side. Does anyone know of any cards that were made for the expansion bays. I know that a parallel card was available, and also something called a Priam Card. Anything else? Let's see one final question. What about printer support. Was it limited to the Imagewriter I, Apple DMP and the daisy wheel one (can't remember the name). Can one use the Imagewriter II? How about other printers? Well thanks to anyone with any info Rob From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 08:48:32 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: FWD: RSTS/E Manuals Message-ID: <009B7ACD.A9E0A2E1.15@siva.bris.ac.uk> [...] >And there are some minis in there amongst the micros: > >An HP 2100A CPU. Unfortunately it is the CPU only. No I/O, no >memory, no peripherals to speak of. Did get the CPU manuals with it, >though, and they have made interesting reading and probably will one >day again. I am not actively seeking the other bits right at the >moment but am keeping my eyes open. I found one of those in a skip (literally!) a few years back, and was allowed to rescue it. Mine came as the CPU box with 32K (I think) core, a lot of I/O cards (or at least I assume that's what they are), a paper tape reader and a somewhat mangled cartridge disk drive (1 fixed platter, one RK05-like cartridge). Alas no manuals. It looks like it could be got to run again, but as I know nothing about it, I've not put any time in on it yet.... > >Now *that* is sad: I am ignoring good stuff that I could probably >learn something about, maybe even learn something useful from. But I >am already having to come to terms with the fact that there is a lot >of stuff to learn, probably more than I can fit into one lifetime. Or >maybe I've just got a bad case of hardening of the brain? I don't >know. > >But I wonder how many other folks out there think to collect things >that they know stuff about, as opposed to stuff they don't know >anything about? I have to admit, the former makes a narrower >selection filter and the latter has gotten me into, um, unexpected >learning experiences (yeah, that's it) more often than not. And >for most people the "things they know stuff about" is more likely to be >micros than minis. I swap between the 2 'modes'. Sometimes I'll get a machine because I know what it is, and because I remember it. The Tandy M4 I bought a couple of weeks ago fits in here - I grew up on a Tandy Model 1, and remember the M4 coming out. I wanted one then, but could never afford it. Now I can, and can run those programs from 80-micro.... But more often I get a machine because I have no idea what it is, but it looks interesting. The P850 (the machine that seriously started me collecting) fits in here. As do the PERQs - I thought it was a 68000 box when I got the first one, and was amazed to see a soft-microcoded CPU. Learning from such a machine is great fun... [...] >(Yes, I am apt to collect this sort of documentation in the absence of >hardware too -- I am more a programmer than a hardware guy and I I certainly grab schematics and printsets without the hardware that goes with them - you never know what will turn up later.... >mostly understand computers in terms of how to wrangle code for them. >And I really stand in awe of folks like you who can understand them in >terms of hardware too -- another thing that is on my to-learn list.) It's not that hard. What started me off was getting a relatively simple minicomputer - I'd recomend either the PDP8/e or the PDP11/05 as a starter, and sitting down with the machine, the technical manual, and the printsets. I single-stepped the machine, and watched how it executed an instruction with a logic probe. I where the microcode went, what gates were enabled, etc, and related it to the diagrams in the manual. After a couple of days I could understand most of the instructions.... >Got any pointers to where we could learn more? Yep... CPU Technical manuals from the late 1960's - early 1970's. Most of those include a gate-level description of the CPU operation. It helps a lot to have the machine in front of you, though. > >-Frank McConnell -tony From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 08:50:40 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7ACD.F5C633F6.32@siva.bris.ac.uk> >For those still confused, the 1/2 RK07 was just the actual drive >mechanism. An entire RK07 is about 4 feet tall, the bottom is which is >basically empty. One design of RK07 stand can be modified to mount the drive about 12" hight than it should be. In my case this gave me a mounting for an EMI magtape and 4 flip-chip backplanes with no extra floor area. Not quite original DEC, of course.... > >William Donzelli -tony From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 08:53:54 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <009B7ACE.699B2EFD.4@siva.bris.ac.uk> > Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who >care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- >term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you >don't save a machine, it might be the _last_one_! (The odds of this >happening in the near term with micros is vanishingly small.) Depends on the micro. While IMHO it's true that Apple ]['s, PET's, TRS-80, etc are not exactly hard to find, there are some rather rare machines, like the Tandy Deluxe CoCo (something like 2 exist), a prototype Acorn that I can't remember the name of (M4???), the HH tiger (Prototype only), etc that are somewhat hard to find. It's quite possible that the next one of those that you see is the last! >| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | -tony From pcoad at crl.com Wed Jul 23 02:46:20 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <199707221800.TAA11407@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Kevan Heydon wrote: > Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy > Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real > pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? > I have 3 3B1 type machines which have a configuration similar to PETs. One is sitting on the floor of the computer room and the other two are in storage racks in the garage. Storage racks are the only way to store these machines. it is best to get the kind which have adjustable shelves so it is possible to minimize the wasted space between the monitor and the next shelf. If one lives in earthquake country I recommend that these machines be secured or placed on lower shelves. First, you don't want to loose your machines, and second, one of these things falling on you from any height can cause a good deal of damage. > On the down side for storage space the manuals for minicomputers are > normally far more extensive than the typical 1/2" thick A4/A5 manual you > get with a micro. Exactly. The above mentioned machines came with 4 cubic feet of software and documentation. I have one complete set, and part of another. This takes up more space than a single 3B1. Then on the other hand, I have been lucky(?) in a few cases and have picked up complete micro systems where the software and docs take up more space than the micro itself. Boxed micros also stack nicely, but they are hard to use that way. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html stty: TCGETS: Operation not supported on socket Dumpster Heydon Jul Kevan Ok PETs Tandy Tue docs http machines.html pcoad pec www.crl.com From carl.friend at stoneweb.com Wed Jul 23 08:16:17 1997 From: carl.friend at stoneweb.com (Carl R. Friend) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <199707231316.AA28645@maddog.swec.com> On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:47:54 -0700 (PDT), Mr. Ismail remarked: > Sure, I'll just needlessly add to my current mountain of debt. > There is a practical limit to what any individual can do or be > expected to do. I'm not going to over-burden myself over a hobby. Sorry about that, Sam. I didn't think the cattle-prod was turned on. :-) ______________________________________________________________________ | | | | Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin) | West Boylston | | Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast | Massachusetts, USA | | mailto:carl.friend@stoneweb.com | | | http://www.ultranet.com/~engelbrt/carl/museum/ | ICBM: N42:21 W71:46 | |________________________________________________|_____________________| From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 23 09:46:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: from "Sam Ismail" at Jul 22, 97 07:03:32 pm Message-ID: <9707231346.AA24548@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970723/d9484f88/attachment-0001.ksh From gram at cnct.com Wed Jul 23 09:51:07 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Stacy C. Morang wrote: > > I'd love to have one, but there's the usual two problems - one is that > > B.C. is a really long way from Maine, and two, storage space (although if > > you were on this corner of N. America I'd solve that one). > > > > Now, if there was a bucket brigade..... > > That's funny Stacy 8-) This is what I thought belonging to this group and > the Classic Computer Rescue Squad was ALL about. I would like this to be > a *normal* thing to do. Everyone who wants one - Talk to Tim. Tim puts a > list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges > a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs > view of shipping scrap across the boarder 8-) Sure - the hardest hit will > be the first in the chain - but we ALL should be first at least ONCE! Then > the next RS person in each direction goes to #1's location and we start Hard to say if Stacy will will see anything up in Maine by that time or not -- looks like by the time Bill Donzelli and I get finished divvying up what gets to the NY Metro area, there might not be much of a load to pass on to New England. And yes, I'm interested in one of the machines myself, but being at the wrong edge of the continent definitely has its drawbacks. Now if my fiancee's father would die so I can move to Thermopolis Wyoming and buy the bookstore there, I'd be able to schedule all sorts of little trips. But it looks like he's good for another decade or so which keeps me trapped here in New Jersey. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Wed Jul 23 10:04:38 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... Message-ID: From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Wed Jul 23 11:27:16 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jul 23, 97 08:04:38 am Message-ID: <9707231527.AA24613@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1773 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970723/b7940726/attachment-0001.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Wed Jul 23 10:57:20 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > 2nd: a number of DECStation 2100 and 3100 series units. (along with > various peripherals and expantion boxes. > > What are they, and what do they run? (and docs?) I have one, it runs VMS 5.3 (VAXServer 3100) I am talking to the VAX guy at ATS (CAterpillar branch) about it. They have an 11/780 out there, in full working order and DOING SOMETHING USEFUL!! Quite an impressive show, these guys really use the thing! And if/when they get rid of it, guess who's first in line to get it! Lucky for me the man who runs it is a nice guy. And for about $100-200, I may be able to get my hands on an 8550. Assuming I can re-assemble it, it's been taken apart. From scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu Wed Jul 23 11:27:30 1997 From: scm at smorang.enm.maine.edu (Stacy C. Morang) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > > > list of who gets gets what. The closest Rescue Squad personnel arranges > > a time and date for his pick up in B.C. We ALL find out about Customs > > .... > So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the > accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him > incurred? > If I win the lottery between now and then, yeah, no problem. Otherwise I can't justify spending anywhere near $600 for this stuff. > Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and > transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I > doubt it. If I were in a more central spot, the time wouldn't be a big problem, but a bunch of DG's stored in the rain might not be such a good idea. > > Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 > > trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer > > within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? > > You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way > to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I > wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. Neither would I. The bucket brigade thingy only really works if there are enough people involved so that no one is inconvenienced enough to require additional compensation. An 8-10 hour drive (and long distance phone calling) is more than a little expense for me, anyway. > This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I > would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as > it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. Very true. I have lots of projects and the rest of the family to attend to as well. -stacy -- Stacy C. Morang, Communications Specialist Education Network of Maine scm@access.enm.maine.edu, smorang@enm.maine.edu So long, and keep your stick on the ice. From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 11:41:02 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: HHCs (bad news) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > I have some unfortunate news to pass along to everyone interested in the > > Panasonic HHCs. The deal is now off. > > Gee, can you say Bait and Switch? He now has 400 units he KNOWS are worth > over $4000! If he can get $10 -heck he can get $30 - That's $12000 worth! > Oh ya - the deals off! Heck I would try for $50 each - Heck of a deal > isn't it? Ok, this is EXACTLY the type of response I didn't want to see. This is pure speculation and is simply not the case and I regret your insinuation. I have no reason to believe Mike is being misleading or dishonest with me. He was basically doing us a favor, and I doubt he is foolish enough to think he can get $50 for one of these units on the open market. Mike is an Engineer. He owns a company that designs custom hardware for other companies. He knows what current market value is on older computer hardware. He understands the cycles. He was amazed anyone was interested in these units to begin with, and is somewhat fascinated with the premise of this discussion group. If anyone else has any concerns about what happened with this deal, I would appreciate your e-mailing me directly instead of filling the discussion group with noise. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 23 12:02:35 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: <9707231346.AA24548@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > These obstacles pose no difficulties to folks who try to buy > IMSAI's from me - I've had people fly across a continent or drive > hundreds of miles to buy an IMSAI. Yet you claim that the same > difficulties are nearly insurmountable > when the machine in question is quite a bit rarer than an IMSAI, > a little bit larger and heavier than an IMSAI, but not nearly > as trendy as an IMSAI. I'm willing to bet the situation would > change instantly if there was an LA Times article about the > high collectiblity of Novae and Eclipses. I wouldn't know as I'm not concerned with the "collectibility" aspect. If I could find the system locally, I would take it. I'll admit I had the misconception that mini's are somewhat cumbersome to deal with, but after realizing that there are a variety of about eighteen S-100, Q-bus and Multi-bus systems sitting in my garage, getting them there isn't the big deal. However, and my argument is, I would be loath to spend the money it would take to ship one of these systems from somewhere else in the country. All of the systems I have now have been picked up within a 70 mile radius, all transported in my Honda (one time I brought home 3 IMSAIs, a NorthStar Horizon, a Vector 1, twelve 8" disk boxes, a dumb terminal, 3 Cromemco dual 8" drive units, and one IMSAI dual 8" drive unit in my Honda, and that wasn't even my most ambitious haul), so I know it can be done. > I suppose I am partly to blame in the equation. My initial > posts made it sound like the Data General stuff wasn't worth > its weight in scrap metal. (Believe me, after lugging around > thousands of pounds of stuff, I sometimes think this myself...) > I like the stuff - some of it is just beautiful - and I was > hoping to convince others collectors of this as well. I've learned my > lesson: from now on, it's no longer "Bring a truck and it's yours"! > Instead, I'll whip the media into a wild frenzy... :-) I think the problem is (at least for me it is) that it is simply not practical to make a drive up to Canada to retrieve the stuff or have it shipped from there. If it was something dinky like an Apple or an Atari, then sure, it would be easy. Also, I'm waiting until I run into that stuff locally. I live in the computer mecca of the world. I'm bound to run into one of everything sooner or later. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 23 12:36:49 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d74013.176991339@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: %then sure, it would be easy. Also, I'm waiting until I run into that %stuff locally. I live in the computer mecca of the world. I'm bound to %run into one of everything sooner or later. I'm not so sure that it'll be easier to find things in the Bay Area. Things here seem to change faster than elsewhere in the world, at least technologically. The latest toys seem to be easier to get. Companies rise and fall at a phenomenal rate... Hence, many old machines have probably been long thrown away. In other parts of the country/world, the push to acquire the latest technologies may be absent and hence many places may still be using machines from the 1970s/80s. Correct me if I'm wrong. Family obligations sometimes prevent me from scrouging around a lot so my experiences are limited. Ben From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Wed Jul 23 12:31:23 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: News from Apple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33d63b00.175692032@smtp.ix.netcom.com> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 01:44:04 -0700 (PDT), Sam Ismail wrote: % %I think you're reading too much into this. Jobs wasn't against the II. %On the other hand, he WAS for the Mac. John Sculley killed the Apple ][. Zap me if you have to, but I have never been fond of Apple the company nor its products. The Apple II was great for the first few years. After that, it was over priced and under powered. They stuck with a 1MHz processor when other people did a 2MHz one (e.g. BBC Micro). Hell, even Ohio Scientific had 2MHz 6502 boards in the 1970s! Lots of people also had 4MHz Z80-based computers (which are faster than a 1MHz 6502 but not a 2MHz 6502). When people like Commodore had better sound and graphics systems, the Apple II was 'upgraded' to IIe and IIc which did not add anything much to the basic machine. I was not surprised when the Mac 128K was over priced and under powered too. That had been Apple's strategy for the II : get as much profit as possible for lousy hardware. If they had stuck with the basic promise of a computer for the common man (the initial marketing line for the Mac), they would have had a better long term success. The Ataris and Amigas were incredibly successful in Europe because they were cheaper than the Apple IIs at that time. Interestingly enough, a very old issue of Byte magazine mentioned that Apple was in serious trouble in 1985. I can't remember the exact details. If anyone's interested, I can look it up (read the article a week ago while going on a nostalgia trip). That apple is still in trouble (12 years later) does not surprise me at all. Just blowing off steam. Sorry if it's off topic. Ben From kaikal at MICROSOFT.com Wed Jul 23 12:56:08 1997 From: kaikal at MICROSOFT.com (Kai Kaltenbach) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? Message-ID: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACB5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Welcome! Which Lisa model do you have? I have a Lisa 2/10 that is almost working. The hard drive install of Sun's version of MacWorks is apparently corrupt and it doesn't boot completely (or needs a boot floppy that I don't have). I'm loathe to fix the MacWorks install because I'd rather run the Lisa Office System. Problem is, the Lisa Office System is serialized, and, once installed, it will only reinstall on the same Lisa. There are some outfits around that will sell copies of the uninstalled disks for $170, which is a bit steep. I have an acquaintance at a local computer recycler who has a set and is willing to let me borrow them, but I'll have to set up a PC with two 720K drives (which I don't have handy) and a Copy II Option Board (which I do have) to dupe them. Kai > ---------- > From: Rob Bedeaux[SMTP:bede0005@gold.tc.umn.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 7:25 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? > > Hi all: > > This is my first post to ClassicCMP. Let me just start by sayin it is > > great to see how much interest there is out there in different Classic > > Computers!! > > I recently aquired an Apple Lisa and was wondering if anyone out there > > also had a working model. So far, I have a copy of the Lisa Office > System, the Lisa Tools, and MacWorks XL. What I'd like to find out is > > what other software for it was available and if anyone wants to get > rid > of it :) I know there is the workshop environment for programmin in > Pascal, and I think a version of Unix and Basic were realeased. But > what > about Fortan? Also on the hardware side. Does anyone know of any > cards > that were made for the expansion bays. I know that a parallel card > was > available, and also something called a Priam Card. Anything else? > Let's > see one final question. What about printer support. Was it limited > to > the Imagewriter I, Apple DMP and the daisy wheel one (can't remember > the > name). Can one use the Imagewriter II? How about other printers? > Well > thanks to anyone with any info > > Rob > From bede0005 at tc.umn.edu Wed Jul 23 13:08:39 1997 From: bede0005 at tc.umn.edu (Rob Bedeaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? In-Reply-To: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB24DACB5@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > Welcome! > > Which Lisa model do you have? I have a Lisa 2/10 that is almost > working. The hard drive install of Sun's version of MacWorks is > apparently corrupt and it doesn't boot completely (or needs a boot > floppy that I don't have). I'm loathe to fix the MacWorks install > because I'd rather run the Lisa Office System. I have a Lisa 2/10. Right now I am looking for a Lisa Mouse (Not a Mac one which does work on the Lisa), a parallel interface card and a ProFile external Hard Drive. > > Problem is, the Lisa Office System is serialized, and, once installed, > it will only reinstall on the same Lisa. There are some outfits around > that will sell copies of the uninstalled disks for $170, which is a bit > steep. I have an acquaintance at a local computer recycler who has a > set and is willing to let me borrow them, but I'll have to set up a PC > with two 720K drives (which I don't have handy) and a Copy II Option > Board (which I do have) to dupe them. > > Kai > ***The serialization for the Lisa Office System and its tools IS removable, if you have a Macintosh. I have the specs to do this. Basically, you use a sector editor on a copy of the Lisa Tools disk and remove the serial number that has been placed onto the disk. Rob From mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu Wed Jul 23 13:13:11 1997 From: mpsayler at cs.utexas.edu (Matthew Sayler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths In-Reply-To: ; from Marvin on Sun, Dec 31, 2097 at 04:00:00PM +0000 References: <33d74013.176991339@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <19970723131311.50320@beret.cs.utexas.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1969 16:00:00 +0000 ^^^^ From: Marvin To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" Subject: Re: Minicomputer Storage Myths X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Is that win 1895? :-) m@ [...] > My experience is that most computer hobbiests/hackers/engineers/etc. > tend to keep everything, especially when they have used to the stuff > before. As such, most people I know would much rather give it away than > throw it away ... and unless they have already given it away, they > probably still have it :)! -- /* Matt Sayler -- mpsayler@cs.utexas.edu -- Austin, Texas (512)457-0086 -- http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/mpsayler Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? */ From starling at umr.edu Wed Jul 23 18:01:04 1997 From: starling at umr.edu (starling@umr.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? In-Reply-To: from "Rob Bedeaux" at Jul 23, 97 01:08:39 pm Message-ID: <199707232301.SAA28774@saucer.cc.umr.edu> Hi, Rob (& other Lisa owners) I have a Lisa 2/5 that I love very much. However, she's been a bit ill lately and seems to have toaster her Lisa Lite board, or else her Parallel card. > I have a Lisa 2/10. Right now I am looking for a Lisa Mouse (Not a Mac > one which does work on the Lisa), a parallel interface card and a ProFile > external Hard Drive. My Lisa mouse is also dead... HOWEVER... the _ORIGINAL_ Mac mouse will allegedly work with it. I forget the exact part number, but it's the one that came with the Mac 128 and Mac 512. I'm not sure if a Mac Plus mouse will work or not. The mouse for the Apple II series is exactly the same as well. I plan to hunt one of them down and replace the guts so that the mouse case is still the same. > ***The serialization for the Lisa Office System and its tools IS > removable, if you have a Macintosh. I have the specs to do this. > Basically, you use a sector editor on a copy of the Lisa Tools disk and > remove the serial number that has been placed onto the disk. Cool... Think maybe you could send me this information or point me to a web page that has the info on it? I'd really like to back up my software so that I can use it if I get another Lisa. For good Lisa info, I highly recomend Tom Stepleton's webpage at: http://galena.tj.edu.inter.net/~tom/ chris starling From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jul 23 18:12:36 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Brett wrote: > > days. It might take months to sort it all out. If the first guy spends > > $200 on a truck and $100 on gas - so what - if he comes back with 30 > > boxes thats what $10 each? We got it as far as Washington or Oregon! The > > next guy spends $60 bucks on gas in his station wagon - ok - he gets 6 > > boxes and it comes to another $10. We would be in Idaho, Utah or > > California! The #1 guy gets to meet Tim - an honor in itself - but only > > So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the > accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him > incurred? I am suprised every time I put (what I thought was) simple math on the Internet 8-) 10 hours of driving at about 50mph gives you 500 miles. This is a two way trip so you get 250 8-) Now there are two trips. One to get and one to get rid of. That's a total of 500 miles and $20 bucks (as an average) Ten total trips gives you about 5000 miles and gee $200 dollars AT MOST. Last time I looked at a map 8-) 5000 miles gets you from Alaska to Florida - am I confused? If you do NOT wnat to do it - DON'T - that's simple. But if I was driving thru on Thursday night and had the last known working Cray - I don't think I stop by your house either 8-) I'd go straight home 8-) The trips don't have to be done until it is economically feasible and the intermediate has suffucient storage. Why drive from Chicago to Minneapolis for ONE box - make it worth your while! > > really spent a weekend of time - he also gets some hardware of doc or > > boards or whatever - if he wants any - and if you set it up so the next > > crew is there to unload him - even better! In one weekend we could be > > almost a quarter across the US with some of it already delivered. The next > > weekend or even a month later (depending on storage 8-) the next leg goes. > > Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and > transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I > doubt it. If you don't have the time or the inclination - DON'T! And no Sam, I don't think you talk for everyone here 8-) > > Finally, everything gets delivered. Maybe the East Coast pays $10 for 10 > > trips - it's still only $100 for a personally delivered/pickup computer > > within 8-10 hour drive. So what if it took 2 months to get there? > > You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way > to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I > wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. No Sam I guess you don't. Others however think it nice to have an excuse to fire up that old Army Duece and a half and go on a wild weekend of cruising at the speed limit to save something for someone else, meet new people, draw looks of amazement as wierd boxes and books get exchanged at the local K-Mart parking lot. > > Isaac and I have had a vision 8-) of a group of pickups and trailers all > > meeting in a cornfield in Nebraska with the associated "Chinese Fire > > Drill" of people running around sorting out shipments and maybe having a > > campfire or pot-luck dinner! God what a life it could be! You get to do > > a nice weekend drive - meet friends with the SAME interests as you - have > > a nice talk - do some drinking maybe and then back to the real world by > > Monday! Who could ask for more out of life? During the week set up to do > > it all over again, sort some shipments - meet people closer to you who can > > make it as a evening trip or even an overnighter. Poor over the docs you > > *said* you didn't want but - damn - that looks interesting. > > This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I > would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as > it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. Well, some of us don't have a life 8-) And then some of us USE our hobby to do something that we normally wouldn't do in the first place. BC From danjo at xnet.com Wed Jul 23 18:27:55 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Much to Do About - Everything - Transportation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Stacy C. Morang wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > > So what happens to the guy in Maine? Does he get to pick up the > > accumulated $600 in transportation charges that the others before him > > incurred? > > If I win the lottery between now and then, yeah, no problem. Otherwise I > can't justify spending anywhere near $600 for this stuff. Please refer to previous post 8-) > > Does everyone here have the time to retrieve, sort, re-package and > > transport equipment in this manner? I hate to speak for everyone, but I > > doubt it. > > If I were in a more central spot, the time wouldn't be a big problem, but > a bunch of DG's stored in the rain might not be such a good idea. Remember tho the people who do this must have storage available - even if it is just left in the van for a week. It is NOT for everyone! > > You're forgetting the fact that the equipment still had to make its way > > to Maine, accumulating the transportation charges the entire way. I > > wouldn't expect anyone to extend me that charity. > > Neither would I. The bucket brigade thingy only really works if there are > enough people involved so that no one is inconvenienced enough to require > additional compensation. An 8-10 hour drive (and long distance phone > calling) is more than a little expense for me, anyway. Well, we CERTAINLY wouldn't want to burden the Internet with HUGE VOLUMES of email. Damn right - grab that phone NOW! 8-) > > This would be nice, but again, its a matter of time and money. I and I > > would expect others in this busy world have plenty to do on weekends as > > it is. This hobby is not my life. It is a hobby. > > Very true. I have lots of projects and the rest of the family to attend > to as well. Well, I am NOT saying do it EVERY weekend and I am NOT saying to do it if you can't. Not everybody is a Brain Surgen either 8-) I am simply trying to get computers that someone ELSE wants along - maybe - with the stuff I want. Maybe meet some nice people along the way. It doesn't hurt. As far as time and money - what else won't you do for your hobby????? What DO you HAVE for a hobby that DOESN'T take Time and Money????? I have NEVER HAD a hobby that didn't consume Time and Money! Isn't THAT what hobbies do? BC From H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au Wed Jul 23 20:31:18 1997 From: H.Davies at latrobe.edu.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970724113118.009d5100@lucifer.its.latrobe.edu.au> At 03:57 PM 7/23/97 +0000, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >Lucky for me the man who runs it is a nice guy. And for about $100-200, I >may be able to get my hands on an 8550. Assuming I can re-assemble it, >it's been taken apart. This may be a real challenge. The Nautilus based systems (8800, 88x0, 8700, 85x0) have an interesting back plane using zif sockets. When the systems run they run, but when they go bad, they're horrible to fix. I spent a fair part of the last three years doing user maintenance on 8800s and an 8820 and I can tell you now that fixing these beasts can be a real pain. In particular, the diagnostics are unreliable at best. Even the professionals have problems, we had a Digital maintained 8800 die and after two weeks of three engineers they finally decided to ship a new system down from Sydney. Fortunately we managed to convince management to upgrade to newer systems. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "My Alfas keep me poor in a monetary Melbourne Australia 3083 | sense, but rich in so many other ways" From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 23 21:23:21 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970723192409.3a1f9512@mail.crl.com> At 12:42 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >argument that minicomputers are too large to collect easily. I have one >word: "hogwash". My HP3000 (with HD's and cart tape) is in a case slightly larger (wider, possibly a bit deeper) than a standard full tower. The 9-track tape drive, of course, is in it's own 6-ft enclosure, but if I were smart, I could fit all the other 3000 bits inside the (empty) bottom. Hmmm... Wonder why I never thought of that before? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 23 21:23:24 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970723192413.3a1fade2@mail.crl.com> At 07:00 PM 7/22/97 +0100, you wrote: >Ok, they are a very convenient shape compared with Superbrains, Tandy >Model 4s and PETs. I only have a couple of PETs and they are a real >pain. What do other collectors do with these machines? Shelves. If you face them towards each other: _ _ |_\_ _/_| You can slip light boxes or what-have-you in between. Of course, us really *smart* people concentrate on portables... 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From sinasohn at crl.com Wed Jul 23 21:23:27 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Minicomputer Storage Myths Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970723192416.3a1f9974@mail.crl.com> At 12:02 AM 7/23/97 -0400, you wrote: > Offhand, and I may offend a few sensibilities here, that folks who >care for computing's history should be willing to bear such short- >term inconveniences as medium-sized monetary expenditures. If you Well, I would gladly spend hundreds, or even thousands of dollars to save computers (and misc. other stuff I collect) from around the world. Problem is, I'm lucky if I've got enough $ to save me from going hungry. I'm not complaining, mind you (it's my own fault, really; spending all this money on silly computers and land rovers and stuff...) but just pointing out that a lot (most?) people simply *CAN'T* blow $200 on shipping a computer or what-have-you. Doesn't do much good to get an HP3000 series 3 if you then have to rip the guts out to live in it. I get the same story from people who say "Oh, you really ought to join the Y/club/whatever, it's not expensive" when what they really mean is "it's not expensive for me, but hey, I just bought a $50K BMW for my kid's 15th birthday." (I think there are those who get BMW's for their birthday, and those who get underwear. I got underwear.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From foxnhare at goldrush.com Wed Jul 23 22:59:44 1997 From: foxnhare at goldrush.com (Larry Anderson & Diane Hare) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 122 References: <199707230702.AAA10544@lists2.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: <33D6D331.6681@goldrush.com> From: Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk Subject: PET FAQ > What about the 8200 Series? I am not sure of the differences between this, the > 8000 series and the 500/700 (B/P) series - see my post earlier this week. I don't have ANY information on the 8200 series, I suspect that it was not widely released (or not at all) in the U.S. The 500/700 series are not in the PET line, those are the B-series machines and would be a separate FAQ - IMO. >> Large Keyboard PETs (no more internal datasette drive): >> PET 2001 xN (x=8,16,or 32 depending on amount or RAM it was shipped with) >> - Full-size key keyboard w/PET graphic symbols imprinted on keys > I dispute this. The 2001 xN, of which we had several at school, had the new > ROMs, the new motherboard (using 2332 ROM chips) but the small keyboard and the > built in C2N. This was the essential difference between the N and B machines. Have to disagree with you on this one, the 'calaulator keyboard' PETs seem to have the designation on 2001-8k or 2001-8/c (c referring to calculator keyboard). The N designation meant [N]on Business and [B]usiness style keyboards, both full-size, can find many sales ads and books to refer to on that one (though if I were running a business on a PET, I would have preferred the keyboard with the most keys...) >> - Upgrade ROMs >> - Many steel cased, some w/molded plastic tops. >> - many with clearer green on black displays >I thought all the N and B machines had green screens - we even had one straight >2001 (old ROM) with a green screen. I think Commodore still had extras in stock (also small yeyboards & tops), the blue screens aren't common but tere are some in later models (kinda like finding VIC-20 keyboards in C-64 units) >> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed > Was this not only available as an upgrade? I am going by personal experience here, there were 8" diaply PETs sold with 4.0, I saw a couple come through our school. >> PET 2001 xB (labeled as CBM, Commodore Business Machine) >> - Full size xx key keyboard (no graphics symbols printed on keys) >> - Upgrade ROMs (powers up in upper/lower case mode) >> - Later versions had 4.0 ROMs installed >> - Many w/molded plastic tops some steel cased. > Our green-screened old-ROM machine was labelled CBM, but was again a small > keyboard/internal tape machine. Otherwise I remember little about the B > machines Hmmm, I have yet to see such an animal... But as I mentioned a few answers back, with Commodore's thriftyness anything was possible. :) >> PET/CBM 40xx Series (PET= N keyboard/ROM, CBM= B keyboard/ROM, xx= RAM) > I wasn't aware of a small keyboard 4000 series. Interesting. Again, N does not mean small keyboard. >> 80 column series (can be set to 40 column mode via software.) >Can it?!? I wasn't aware of this. You can restrict the area in which it prints >on the screen to an arbitrary rectangle, but it doesn't behave like the >40-column machines in that the screen is still physically 80-column, it doesn't >handle wrapped text, etc. On many of the Commodore P.D. disks there is a program called 4032.C (I think there is a .C on it...) it will bump your 8000 into a 40 columns to run the 40 column programs on the disk. > The 8200 series could be set from 80 to 40 columns by unsoldering and moving two > chips. I haven't done this to mine yet... Never heard of 'moving' chips, I read it was one of the ROMs (the one that supplies the startup values...) that determined 40 or 80 column (as well as video RAM memory too.) I guess you mean replacing two chips, then yes. Going back to 40 is a bit easier since you don't have to add RAM like in the 4000 PETs. > At this point you must mention the 8296 and 8296D! I'll have to dig up some solid info on this, as 'I said it is pretty uncommon here. >[... SUPERPET ...] Got one, still puzzles me, also how much space I should devote to it as I have only seen one (the one I bought recently). Will probably add more as I get more time and information not very many people have asked about them. >> MOTHERBOARD SERIES >> >> 2000 series(9" CRT) 3000 & 4000 series (8" CRT) >> IEEE user tape #2 IEEE user tape #1 >> +------####-####--##-+ +------####-####--##-+ >> ! # ! #! >> ! # ! #! >> ! # exp ! #! exp >> ! # bus ! ROMS #! bus >> ! # ! F E D C A B 9 #! >> ! # ! #! >> ! ! ! ! >> ! ! ! ! >> ! ROMS ! ! ! >> ! F E D C A B 9 ! ! ! >> ! ! ! ! >>tape # RAM MEMORY ! tape # RAM MEMORY ! >> #1 # ! #2 # ! >> +--------------------+ +--------------------+ >The left hand board is a hybrid of the original motherboard (of which there were >no fewer than _four_ versions). Remember the original motherboard used 2 >kilobyte (800 Hex) ROM chips (6540s in most, 2316s in some). The ROMS were >therefore not F E D C A B 9 but F8 F0 E D8 D0 C8 C0 'Programming the PET/CBM' gave me those diagrams and you are right about the ROM sizes... Will have to re-do that one. >The righthand motherboard was the 2000B and some of the 3000 - the tape ports >were swapped on the 2000N and other 3000 AFAIK. Will keep with Programming PET/CBMs numbering for now, I'm trying to answer questions not confuse people more... They should suffice all my machines except the original (of course) have the tape #2 on the inside. > 8200 series: Again this basic format, but rearranged so the separate keyboard > mod is sensible. 128k RAM on motherboard of which 96k usable (?). Again I have no data on the 8200 PET/CBMs, point me toward your FAQ on it... *grin* >> WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES AND/OR BUGS OF MY VERSION OF BASIC? >> Original ROMs >> Commodore had not yet implemented the IEEE-488 disk routines. Arrays are >> limited to 256 elements due to a bug in firmware. There is no machine >> language monitor nor could the PEEK command access locations above memory >> location 49152. The upper/lower case character set was inverted (SHIFT for >> lower case) (note: reading my sources there are ALOT of bugs, will take a >> while to compile them) >Some of these were not bugs but features. [so Microsoft would have Commodore believe...] >Peeking and poking in upper memory (thresholds vary!) were disabled to stop people >looking at the ROMS. [Common among early micros fortunately Commodore learend the > 'closed box means no 3rd party support' lesson early] >In the E page are some I/O addresses, so it is re-enabled from there upwards... >The only other genuine bugs I came across on my own machine (my first ever >computer was a PET - original ROMs, 13th birthday present in 1980) were one in >screen editing, and the machine crashes instead of giving the "too many files" >error. Just skimmed a bit about bugs with the Cassette routines. There was some usage problems on the PEEKs warning not to cluster them too close together... Facinating stuff... >> Added screen 'window' formatting control characters. >Only in 8000 series and fat 40, AFAIK. The small screen 4000 series did not >have the new screen controller or many of the new graphics features. I think you're right on that... still have to research that one more. >> HOW DO I ACCESS THE PET's M/L MONITOR? >> The 'timy machine language monitor' (known as TIM to some)... >TIM stood for Terminal Interface Monitor, according to my manual. Jim butterfield referred to it as Tiny Monitor in the First Book of VIC, thanks for the clarification. >> WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT?..... >[ Explanation with one or too inaccuracies has been snipped ] >The old "video controller" could not be put into a faster or a slower mode. It >was discrete TTL, and simply read the screen memory, shoved it through the >character ROM, and sent it to the monitor. It would not have affected printing >speed even if you had speeded it up. >The old PETs were slow because the SOFTWARE of the print character routine >waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the screen memory. >This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which would have resulted in random >pixels (snow) being illuminated on the screen. There was an input on one of the >I/O chips which was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when >to access the video RAM. >The famous poke was actually to another register of the I/O chip, and configured >this input as an output. The older pets didn't mind (much!), and the print >character routine saw the screen as always available, but on the later ones with >the new video controller, this conflicted with another output and caused the >video controller chip to do a wobbly (and could even have burnt out one or the >other). Will re-work that one, thanks for the description. >> IF PEEK(50000) THEN POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32 >NO!!!!!! Peek(50000) will only be zero on the original old ROM pets! Hmmm I know that program works on the big screen units... more research! >> CAN I HOOK UP AN EXTERNAL MONITOR TO MY PET? >> With the help of the following circuit you can get a composite singnal from >> the user port... >> Insert Video Diagram here.... >Don't use the one published in "The PET Revealed" by Nick Hampshire. It doesn't >work. DANG! It was such a neat plan too! Guess I'll have to forget that question for now (until I can find an alternative diagram.) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 24 00:20:15 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: HHCs Message-ID: One final word on the Panasonic hand-helds... I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units are liberated, they will be up for grabs. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but Mike mentioned that he would see if we could just get them for free if we pick up the shipping from Canada, since the company didn't seem interested in making a buck on them anyway. When the time arrives I'll bring it up. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 24 10:38:59 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: from "Daniel A. Seagraves" at Jul 23, 97 03:57:20 pm Message-ID: <9707241439.AA26873@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 705 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970724/42c318ec/attachment-0001.ksh From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jul 24 10:04:35 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... In-Reply-To: <9707241439.AA26873@alph02.triumf.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > 2nd: a number of DECStation 2100 and 3100 series units. (along with > > > various peripherals and expantion boxes. > > > > > > What are they, and what do they run? (and docs?) > > > > I have one, it runs VMS 5.3 (VAXServer 3100) > Misread that. Now turning red. > If it runs VMS, you do *not* have a DECstation. A VS3100 is what you > have, Daniel. A DECstation is not a VAX and does not run VMS. (Though > it will run Ultrix and - I just discovered - NetBSD. See > http://www.netbsd.org/). > > > I am talking to the VAX guy at ATS (CAterpillar branch) about it. They > > have an 11/780 out there, in full working order and DOING SOMETHING > > USEFUL!! > > Umm... yeah? So? Lots of us use old VAX's for real work, > everyday. > Real work or hacking? :) Theirs is for supporting other people who have old VAXen. They even still use paper tape! From dlw at neosoft.com Thu Jul 24 14:03:12 1997 From: dlw at neosoft.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <199707241804.NAA00639@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> On 21 Jul 97 at 10:15, Greg Mast wrote: > Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** > Current bid: $7.50 > Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:43:32 PDT > http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=nwr8950 Hey Greg, I noticed the current bid for this was $103.50. I'd love to hear if you actually collect that much for it. I can't believe someone actually wants it THAT bad. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@neosoft.com http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jul 24 09:21:54 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <199707241804.NAA00639@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> References: <33D39947.4FA4@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <199707241820.OAA29976@mail.cgocable.net> > On 21 Jul 97 at 10:15, Greg Mast wrote: > > Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** > > Current bid: $7.50 > > Auction ends on: 07/25/97, 10:43:32 PDT > > http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=nwr8950 > > Hey Greg, > > I noticed the current bid for this was $103.50. I'd love to hear if > you actually collect that much for it. I can't believe someone > actually wants it THAT bad. Lure of the apple /// is only reason for that bidding price...yes right! There's apple common drives parts to swap out or fix. Remember apple /// is that least common or not? Jason D. From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Jul 24 13:44:19 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: The Rescuer's Conundrum Message-ID: <199707241844.OAA17430@hiway1.exit109.com> Or otherwise stated: What to do when the cost of reviving a rescued computer is as much as buying one of the same model? To explain, I recently rescued a Mac+ (2.5/40) which was being thrown out by my employer. When I got it, it would give intermittant Sad Mac errors. No problem, I figure I can replace the RAM with some surplus PC SIMMs. This fixes the Sad Macs, but after it heats up it dies with an "Address Error" bomb. Some board switching points to the motherboard (more specifically, the ROMs) as being the fault. Checking around, I see that the most common price for a Mac+ system board is $15 + shipping. As a last check, I call Intragate (intramac@aol.com), who has had good prices in the past, to find out their price. It turns our that they won't even quote me a price for the MB as they can get me an entire Mac+ system for $20. This has really left me in a quandry as to what to do. I really don't want to buy *another* one as I already have a working Mac Plus. Besides, what would I then do with *this one*? I suppose I could keep it for parts, but that seems a bit of a waste too. Any suggestions? Anyone with a spare set of Mac+ ROMs? Thanks in advance... <<>> P.S. Anybody also know of a source for a LaserWriter Plus logic board, too? From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Thu Jul 24 19:59:48 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: The Rescuer's Conundrum Message-ID: <009B7BF4.9A831C91.12@siva.bris.ac.uk> >Or otherwise stated: What to do when the cost of reviving a rescued >computer is as much as buying one of the same model? > >To explain, I recently rescued a Mac+ (2.5/40) which was being thrown >out by my employer. When I got it, it would give intermittant Sad Mac >errors. No problem, I figure I can replace the RAM with some surplus >PC SIMMs. This fixes the Sad Macs, but after it heats up it dies with >an "Address Error" bomb. Some board switching points to the motherboard >(more specifically, the ROMs) as being the fault. Hmmm... My first thought is to fix the old board : Since the ROMs work OK when cold, you should be able to make a good copy of them onto disk. Then blow them into EPROMs, and modify the Mac+ to use said EPROMs (I believe a very small mod is needed, alas, but I don't know that much about the Mac+ hardware). IMHO that's not piracy - it's simply using a backup copy on new media since the original media failed. However, a pair of EPROMs would probably cost about $15, so that's no solution either. In the past I _have_ spent more on repairing/restoring a machine than buying a new one would cost. The reason is simple - I enjoy doing said repairs. A hobby doesn't have to make financial sense. [...] >Thanks in advance... <<>> > >P.S. Anybody also know of a source for a LaserWriter Plus logic board, too? What's wrong with the old one. From the pictures I've seen of said board (Sorry, I don't have one, only a CX-VDO (same engine, but with no logic board) and a Laserwriter 2NT), it looks to be mostly standard components, and should be repairable. -tony From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Thu Jul 24 14:24:26 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: HHCs Message-ID: <199707241524_MC2-1B87-494@compuserve.com> Message text written by Sam: >I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units are liberated, they will be up for grabs.< A suggestion. Why don't you start with the existing list of people who were willing to pay for the units, and allocate one to each. If there aren't enough to go around, then delete names in some random manner. If there are units left over, then take the list of folks who requested more than one and allocate them to those folks in some sort of random manner, and so on. Anybody will take a "freebie", but the folks who committed to make this deal work ought to have the first shot at them. I'm just sorry the deal didn't work out as anticipated. And by the way-- if these aren't new-in-the-box units, I assume they won't be coming with an instruction manual? Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com Thu Jul 24 15:50:14 1997 From: B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com (Lane, Bruce A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! Message-ID: Gad, I'm beginning to get a REALLY good idea of what searching for tough-to-find's can be like! Here's the story. I have several MicroVAX II's. I need a way -- ANY way! -- to boot from a CD-ROM on one or all of them. I NEED at least one of the following solutions. 1). (probably a pipe dream) An Andromeda Systems SCDC Q-bus/SCSI host adapter. I don't even care if it doesn't work; I can get it refurbished by the manufacturer. However, $2,500 new is way out of my range. OR (2): ANY QBus-to-SCSI board that can boot from a CD-ROM drive (I have a DEC RRD42). OR (3): A DEC RRD40 CD-ROM drive and controller (the early RRD's used a dedicated controller that, AFAIK, was compatible with any QBUS machine). OR (4): A later model of VAXen (maybe a 3500, 4000, or 5000 series) that is designed to accomodate SCSI from the get-go, and can boot from a CD-ROM. As a last-gasp possibility, I do have a functional TK30 tape drive. Any chance that, if I copy the Ultrix distribution CD to a CompacTape II cartridge, it would be bootable by the MicroVAX? Fellow DEC'ers, I'm getting desperate. Please help me out if you can! I've got at least three systems sitting idle and gathering dust because I can't boot a CD on them at the moment. Thanks in advance. Please reply to my other address: kyrrin@wizards.net ==Bruce Lane http://www.wizards.net/technoid From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 24 17:16:07 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! In-Reply-To: from "Lane, Bruce A" at Jul 24, 97 01:50:14 pm Message-ID: <9707242116.AA26426@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970724/85e847df/attachment-0001.ksh From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 24 16:33:25 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > OR (3): A DEC RRD40 CD-ROM drive and controller (the early RRD's used a > dedicated controller that, AFAIK, was compatible with any QBUS machine). Down a somewhat parallel track... Does anyone have any of the RRD40 loading 'shoes' for this drive? With my weekend run I got one of these drives, and discovered a CD in it. <<>> Had the devil's own time getting it to let go (without doing damage to the drive or CD). Found the reference to the 'shoe' in later searching... -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 24 16:42:47 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! Message-ID: <199707242142.AA14567@world.std.com> < Gad, I'm beginning to get a REALLY good idea of what searching for from "PDP11 Hacker ....." at Jul 24, 97 07:59:48 pm Message-ID: <199707242151.RAA15687@hiway1.exit109.com> > >P.S. Anybody also know of a source for a LaserWriter Plus logic board, too? > > What's wrong with the old one. From the pictures I've seen of said board > (Sorry, I don't have one, only a CX-VDO (same engine, but with no logic board) > and a Laserwriter 2NT), it looks to be mostly standard components, and should > be repairable. Well, it appears to be failing its self-test. When you power it on, it never prints a test page and is never seen on a LocalTalk net. So, I hooked up a serial terminal to it and got the following at 1200 baud: *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* *APPLE*00010008*APPLE* [...] I posted to Apple's Tech support site, Usenet, and AOL, but could never get an answer as to what this code means. It's definately the logic board, but I've got no idea where to start looking. (Not to mention that the only socketd chips are the ROMs and a couple of PALs.) <<>> From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 24 18:22:00 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: For those interested in the Commodore VIC-20... For the last two years, I have been working on making a recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM. I started from a scan that I made of a crappy dot-matrix print-out and have a version that compiles with no errors. From this, I developed an assembler variable equates "include" file for all of the VIC-20 RAM and ROM locations. It's a little messy because I preserved the original address and op-code info to match against the assembler listing. So, you have to import it into Excel to strip that info out, save it as text, do some minor double-"double-quote" fixups and re-save it. I have also proven to myself that the compiland is the same as the ROM image by using a simple BASIC program to byte-compare the two files (my ROM image and a ROM image from the Finland Commodore ftp site). There are two versions of the "inc" file. One for recompiling the Kernel and one for ML program writers (to avoid double variable declarations). Right now, I'm working on documenting the code as best as I can. When that's done (I'm up to location $f400), I'll post it and the "inc" files. I would then look for you guys/gals to peer-review it and give me your comments. The finished product can go into our archive. Then, I'll probably work on the BASIC ROM. And so it goes... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From allisonp at world.std.com Thu Jul 24 20:41:02 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Getting desperate...! Message-ID: <199707250141.AA19311@world.std.com> I got a nice system for free today from a nice old couple who run a thrift shop that they are closing down. Its a Televideo 1603. What's interesting about this system for one thing is that it was made by Televideo, whom I thought only made terminals. It has two 5.25" floppies integrated with a green monochrome monitor on a swivel armature and a detached keyboard. On the back are two DB-25 serial ports, a D-type connector RS-422 port, a telephone jack for a mouse (which I didn't get), and two dipswitch blocks. Inside it has an 8088 and a 6502! I was talking to Doug Coward tonight about it and he suggested that the 6502 was for the terminal operation, and the 8088 was actually the main processor. This makes sense, but I was wondering if anyone knew more about it. When it boots it says on the top line of the screen: TS-1600/1603/1603H POWER ON DIAGNOSTICS Z2.2 then it says below that: RAM TEST IN PROGRESS..... then changes to: FLOPPY DRIVE TEST IN PROGRESS..... at which point it turns on the floppy drive for a few seconds, then goes to: WAITING FOR HARD DISK..... Inside there is a multi-pin connector which I'd assumed was for a hard-drive but there was no cable for it. I didn't write down the number on the WD controller chip. I think perhaps the RS-422 port is where you'd hook the hard drive to. Anyway, after it doesn't find a hard drive, it clears the screen and becomes just a dumb terminal. Doug suggested I try booting an old version of DOS or CP/M+ on it. Any information on this would be appreciated. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:18:23 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade? Please e-mail me directly if you do. Thanks. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:15:33 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: HHCs In-Reply-To: <199707241524_MC2-1B87-494@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by Sam: > >I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units > are liberated, they will be up for grabs.< > > A suggestion. Why don't you start with the existing list of people who > were willing to pay for the units, and allocate one to each. If there > aren't enough to go around, then delete names in some random manner. If > there are units left over, then take the list of folks who requested more > than one and allocate them to those folks in some sort of random manner, > and so on. This is what I planned to do. I have retained the list. There were a total of 53 interested persons, so hopefully there will be enough for everyone. If there are extras then maybe we'll just hold a lottery. > Anybody will take a "freebie", but the folks who committed to make this > deal work ought to have the first shot at them. I'm just sorry the deal > didn't work out as anticipated. And by the way-- if these aren't > new-in-the-box units, I assume they won't be coming with an instruction > manual? A lot of people asked about that. The answer I got was that Mike would try to get at least a couple manuals, as he didn't know how many there were, and the distributors would make photocopies and pass along the cost to the buyer. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From pcoad at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:11:35 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Fairchild Building In-Reply-To: <199707242151.RAA15687@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: A bit of history was demolished this week. The Fairchild building on Fairchild Way here in Mountain View has been completely torn down. The building has been empty for a few years at least. Up until a few months ago the Fairchild sign was still outside of the building. I remember that the sign was taken down around the time that National announced that they were going to spin off part of its business and use the Fairchild name. I can't count the number of times I have driven by the sign and thought that I should take a picture of it and the building. I guess that is the way things go around here. "Old" buildings are torn down and replaced with new buildings. Pretty soon there will be no more of the funky 70's stone buildings left. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 01:11:30 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: The Rescuer's Conundrum In-Reply-To: <199707241844.OAA17430@hiway1.exit109.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > Or otherwise stated: What to do when the cost of reviving a rescued > computer is as much as buying one of the same model? > > To explain, I recently rescued a Mac+ (2.5/40) which was being thrown > out by my employer. When I got it, it would give intermittant Sad Mac > errors. No problem, I figure I can replace the RAM with some surplus > PC SIMMs. This fixes the Sad Macs, but after it heats up it dies with > an "Address Error" bomb. Some board switching points to the motherboard > (more specifically, the ROMs) as being the fault. > > Checking around, I see that the most common price for a Mac+ system > board is $15 + shipping. As a last check, I call Intragate > (intramac@aol.com), who has had good prices in the past, to find out > their price. It turns our that they won't even quote me a price for > the MB as they can get me an entire Mac+ system for $20. I have 3 of these now. The first one I paid $15 for. The next two I got for free. (BTW, they're available for trade or for sale, not that I expect anyone else to want them either.) > This has really left me in a quandry as to what to do. I really don't > want to buy *another* one as I already have a working Mac Plus. Besides, > what would I then do with *this one*? I suppose I could keep it for > parts, but that seems a bit of a waste too. I suggest either keep it for parts or sell it to someone for parts (perhaps $5). Really though, Mac Plusses are second only to Commodore 64's and TI99/4a's in commonality. I find them everywhere at swap meets. You might want to even just throw it out. Some stuff just doesn't need saving, and the only practical thing to do is get rid of it. Give it away for parts. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Fri Jul 25 02:31:53 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33D85669.2C34@oboe.calpoly.edu> > On 21 Jul 97 at 10:15, Greg Mast wrote: > > Apple III External Floppy Drive **PHOTO** > I noticed the current bid for this was $103.50. I'd love to hear if > you actually collect that much for it. I can't believe someone > actually wants it THAT bad. Me too. I figured $20-$30. But who am I to complain? But like they say, talk is cheap. We'll see if they pull through. I had a Radio Shack hard drive that was bid up to $150 a while back. Both high bidders flaked and I relisted it and sold it for $30. Go figure. On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker on it. From Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk Fri Jul 25 09:25:47 1997 From: Philip.Belben at powertech.co.uk (Philip.Belben@powertech.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <9706258698.AA869848174@compsci.powertech.co.uk> > On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person > interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you > guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of > deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker > on it. I don't see many garage sales around here. Sometimes I get to radio rallies (hamfests, I think is the US term). But there is a car boot sale most Sunday mornings in the summer where I call in on the way home from church. Sometimes there is good stuff; sometimes there is awful stuff; last Sunday I saw (in the way of computers) a late model Commodore 64 (which I already have) without a price tag, and next to it a card advertising a Commodore PET (model unspecified) + disk drive + lots of disks, working but needs new cable (also unspecified) hence "low" price of L30 [delete] [delete] 25. Since I have five PETs already, I didn't bite. But even if it's a fat 40 (which I don't have yet) I'd be reluctant to pay as much as L25 (over $40) even in full working order, and certainly not without the disk drive cable (replacement easily obtainable _only_ on the 8032SK AFAIK). Still, enough moaning. I agree, this sort of sale is always worth a visit - you never know what interesting little goodies you might find there... Philip. From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 04:11:51 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:25 2005 Subject: Televideo TS1603 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > I got a nice system for free today from a nice old couple who run a > thrift shop that they are closing down. It's always nice to get free stuff. :) > Its a Televideo 1603. What's interesting about this system for one thing > is that it was made by Televideo, whom I thought only made terminals. I keep running into TeleVideo terminals these days, but yeah, they did make computers. I myself have a TeleVideo TPC-I, which is their portable CP/M system. VERY nice machine, and well worth the $Can50 I paid for it (especially considering that included transportation from Toronto to Montreal, and a drink with a VERY nice computer geek femme) but I also lack information on my system. (I got three original disks with it, but no documentation, and of course, no mouse.) > It has two 5.25" floppies integrated with a green monochrome monitor on a > swivel armature and a detached keyboard. On the back are two DB-25 serial > ports, a D-type connector RS-422 port, a telephone jack for a mouse (which > I didn't get), and two dipswitch blocks. Inside it has an 8088 and a > 6502! I was talking to Doug Coward tonight about it and he suggested that > the 6502 was for the terminal operation, and the 8088 was actually the > main processor. This makes sense, but I was wondering if anyone knew more > about it. Well, I did record some information about it from a large book I found in my university library. The book is "The Microcomputer Users Handbook 1985" by Longley (possibly et. al., I didn't record the full info on the book, just enough so I could find it again). The information in this book tended to be pretty shoddy, but ANY information is better than total vacuum. Other than the information you have listed here, all I can add is that the book says it ran at 5MHz (using the 8088), maximum RAM was 256K, and it had 32K of display memory (as does my TPC-I). Graphics of 640 x 240 pixels were listed as optional, so the 32K of display memory would probably only be there if the graphics option is in the machine. (Resolution specs are also the same as my TPC-I, what a coincidence! ;) ) The machine was supposed to have two 1.46MB 5-1/4" floppy drives (would that be quad density?), and supposedly ran CP/M and MS-DOS, though I'd guess it'd really be CP/M-86 if there's no Z80/8080 in there. It was packaged with a printer, and is listed in the book at 2395UKP. I know that's a lot of words for very little help, I guess I'm just in the typing mood tonight. :) (Thanks for the work on the HHC deal even though it didn't work out, BTW) > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 05:17:14 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: HHCs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jul 1997, Sam Ismail wrote: > One final word on the Panasonic hand-helds... > > I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units > are liberated, they will be up for grabs. I don't want to get anyone's > hopes up, but Mike mentioned that he would see if we could just get them > for free if we pick up the shipping from Canada, since the company didn't > seem interested in making a buck on them anyway. When the time arrives > I'll bring it up. Well, that's cool. But about the 'shipping from Canada'... it doesn't make too much sense for those of us in Canada to have our machines go through customs two times. Where in Canada is the company located? And is there someone in the vicinity that can pick the machines up? Yes I realize this should have been mentioned for the original deal, but I've been too busy to really keep up the last little while. :/ Thanks again. > Sam > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 05:34:08 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Laser 3000 Message-ID: Just on the off chance that there's a different mix of people here now than when I first enquired some months ago... Does anyone here have disk drives, CP/M module, or documentation (especially the tech manual) for the Laser 3000 computer from Video Technology? How about the RS232 adapter, or the RGB cable? Computer Direct also sold these as the "Aplus 3000" (they used a marker to cover over the "Laser 3000" nameplate for the picture in the ad). Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca Fri Jul 25 05:46:47 1997 From: ds_spenc at alcor.concordia.ca (Doug Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Commodore history Message-ID: Does anyone know where Commodore was actually started? I've seen the Bronx and Toronto given as the site of the first Commodore shop, but the Bronx references have been made more recently. Apparently the official Commodore history at the World of Commodore show in Toronto (forget which year - 10th anniversary of the show I think, so 1993?) had a picture of the first little Commodore shop... in Toronto. Also, does anyone know where Commodore had production facilities in Canada? I have a VIC-20 with "Made in Canada" stamped on it, and I didn't realize that Commodore actually _made_ computers here. As another note of interest, both of my "Made in U.S.A." VIC-20s have serial numbers starting with "P". The "Made in Canada" VIC has "CC" instead. Did the letters record what plant the machine was manufactured or assembled in? CC = Canadian plant, P = Philadelphia or something? Heck, while I'm at it, does anyone know the exact date (or even the exact year) that Commodore purchased MOS Technology? I figured it would've been 1976, but I've seen documents referenced as from "Commodore/MOS Technology, Norristown, PA, 1975". Doug Spence ds_spenc@alcor.concordia.ca From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Fri Jul 25 11:12:45 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Is there a DECsystem-ten emulator for free/shareware? Message-ID: I heard there's 3 DEC-10 emulators, but all are commercial products (And therefore pretty expensive!). Are there any freeware or shareware ones? From allisonp at world.std.com Fri Jul 25 11:22:27 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: CLASSICCMP digest 124 Message-ID: <199707251622.AA20564@world.std.com> Bruse Lane queried: Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. And, a 5-pin cable made for the 64 (the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of those if you have one sitting around. Finally, if you want to hack one together, I can provide the pinout. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 25 14:51:33 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D12@compuserve.com> Message text written by "Richard A. Cini, Jr." > For the last two years, I have been working on making a recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM.< OK, I'm not afraid to ask the amateur question: Why? I'd love to see someone with good programming skills write some sophisticated software for the VIC-20, likely requiring at least a 16K expander or something. If your project will help lead to that, I'm all for it. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Fri Jul 25 14:51:30 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Some Great Deals Message-ID: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D0E@compuserve.com> Message text written by Greg Mast >On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker on it.< Heck, if you're dumping stuff at garage sale prices, post the list here first! Probably nothing rare or particularly interesting, but you never know what somebody might be looking for. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From bwit at pobox.com Fri Jul 25 16:24:11 1997 From: bwit at pobox.com (Bob Withers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: HHCs Message-ID: <01BC9917.EE1B5F00@ppp-151-164-39-11.rcsntx.swbell.net> I must've fell off the list last week when the Internet went haywire and I've just resubscribed. From the tone of this message it would seem that the HHC deal fell thru. Would someone mind bringing me up to date? Thanks, Bob ---------- From: Sam Ismail[SMTP:dastar@crl.com] Sent: Thursday, July 24, 1997 6:15 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: re: HHCs On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by Sam: > >I should have mentioned that in a couple months when the remaining units > are liberated, they will be up for grabs.< > > A suggestion. Why don't you start with the existing list of people who > were willing to pay for the units, and allocate one to each. If there > aren't enough to go around, then delete names in some random manner. If > there are units left over, then take the list of folks who requested more > than one and allocate them to those folks in some sort of random manner, > and so on. This is what I planned to do. I have retained the list. There were a total of 53 interested persons, so hopefully there will be enough for everyone. If there are extras then maybe we'll just hold a lottery. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 2036 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970725/b82852e2/attachment-0001.bin From dastar at crl.com Fri Jul 25 18:20:04 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D0B@compuserve.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Gil Parrish wrote: > Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< > > The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for > the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. And, a 5-pin cable made for the 64 I always used the RCA composite jack for connecting to a TV on my C64, so I don't have the 8-pin video cable. > (the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I > think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with > the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of > those if you have one sitting around. Finally, if you want to hack one > together, I can provide the pinout. I have a TI/994a converter box...will this work? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Fri Jul 25 20:03:49 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: <199707251551_MC2-1B95-8D0B@compuserve.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> At 15:51 25/07/97 -0400, you wrote: >Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< > >The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for >the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. And, a 5-pin cable made for the 64 >(the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I >think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with >the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of >those if you have one sitting around. Finally, if you want to hack one >together, I can provide the pinout. > >Gil Parrish >107765.1161@compuserve.com > > Id like the Pinout!! Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From dynasoar at mindspring.com Fri Jul 25 22:46:29 1997 From: dynasoar at mindspring.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable References: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <33D97315.70A0@mindspring.com> steve wrote: > > At 15:51 25/07/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu > >>Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?< There are complete instructions for construction Commodore video cables of both kind at: http://www.student.informatik.th-darmstadt.de/~mjk/nepa/tuning/video_cable.html Hope this helps. Kirk Scott dynasoar@mindspring.com From bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com Sat Jul 26 10:39:58 1997 From: bluesky6 at ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: (fwd) Model 4 video problems Message-ID: <33dd1a10.1231835@smtp.ix.netcom.com> Can any expert out there help me with this? Thanks! In comp.sys.tandy, bluesky6@ix.netcom.com (Benedict Chong) wrote: %I just got a Model 4. When I turn it on, the disk drive will spin but %there's no video. % %When the video brightness is increased, I can see a large rectangular %green area where the video would be. % %Instead of video characters, there are lots of zigzag lines across the %screen, with more on the top of the screen than towards the bottom. %The entire screen is stable and does not flicker or move around. % %It has been a good number of years since I last played with this kind %of video (built a 6502/6845 terminal in the mid 80s) so I can't %remember what problem would cause this type of symptoms. % %When I remove the video connector (after opening up the machine), the %screen loses the vertical hold. I guess that would mean that the %vertical sync and circuitry is working. % %Could the problem be due to the monitor circuitry or a problem with %the Horizontal Sync generation? % %Would appreciate all/any pointers. % %Ben % From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sat Jul 26 11:42:22 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... Message-ID: <01ILOTSKRW6AA4UKIM@cc.usu.edu> > 1st: (the biggie) VAXStation 3520. 'Cube' configuration, apparently 4 > processors Four processors would make it a 3540... > , 64meg of ram, a TK70 and controller, one board that appears to > be the interface between the processor bus and the three Q-bus slots in > the chassis, How much stuff is on the QBus adapter board? There were two versions: FTAM supports only the TK70 controller (is you TK70 attached to QBus or to SCSI?) and FQAM supports any random QBus module. FTAM is a simple module containing only a few chips; FBIC (interface to the backplane) and CQBIC (CVAX -> QBus adapter) being the only really big ones. I believe there was also a clock generator chip, but not much else. FQAM is chuck full o' goodness. It his a prom-based microcode machine to run the module and lots and lots of PALs. > and a board on the processor bus marked "I/O Module" with two > 50 pin headers on it. The connector which goes out the side of the backplane is SCSI. Although DEC used the DSSI chip on this module, they only supported SCSI; the DSSI chip is capable of doing both. The connector which comes out the front of the backplane goes to a distribution panel which provides: - Four serial ports (console/printer, modem, mouse, keyboard) - Ethernet (AUI and BNC) - Diagnostic code display (one 7-segment LED) Unfortunately, I don't know the pinout of the cable; I don't have a printset for the 3520. > There also appears to be a space for what looks like it would have been a > three board video sub-system (which has been removed). Three boards is correct. For extra fun, it has its own embedded MicroVAX II... > Aside from the basic power/control cabling, and the cable to the TK-70, > there are no other cables in the unit at present. (and no place to plug in > a terminal!) The terminal plugs into the distribution panel which plugs into the I/O module. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Sat Jul 26 11:43:52 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Info needed: VAXStation 3520 & others... Message-ID: <01ILOUA48ABSA4UKIM@cc.usu.edu> >> 2nd: a number of DECStation 2100 and 3100 series units. (along with >> various peripherals and expantion boxes. >> >> What are they, and what do they run? (and docs?) > > I have one, it runs VMS 5.3 (VAXServer 3100) Sorry; it it runs VMS it's a VAXstation, not a DECstation. The DECstations are built on MIPS processors. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jul 26 12:58:20 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Some Great Deals Message-ID: <33DA3ABC.33F7@oboe.calpoly.edu> > >On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person = > >interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you = > >guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of = > >deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker = > >on it.< > > Heck, if you're dumping stuff at garage sale prices, post the list here > first! Probably nothing rare or particularly interesting, but you never > know what somebody might be looking for. > > Gil Parrish > 107765.1161@compuserve.com = I do post lists of the stuff I'm selling on Auctionweb. Some of that stuff does go really cheap but not all. I do plan to post a big list of the stuff I was selling at the garage sale and the prices should be very reasonable (cheap). You are right in that the G sale stuff isn't rare. I had 3 Apple II+, an Apple IIc, C-64, Piles of C-64 power supplies and cables, joysticks, Atari 2600 consoles and games. Only thing is that they need to be shipped which can be more than the price sometimes. I did manage to give away 4 dead C-64s and a 1541 to a guy who works on them. Give me a month or so. From healyzh at ix.netcom.com Sat Jul 26 14:31:18 1997 From: healyzh at ix.netcom.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Garage Sales (Re: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb) In-Reply-To: <33D85669.2C34@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: >On the other hand, I had a garage sale last weekend. Not one person >interested in the piles of Apple, Commodore, Atari stuff. I mean, if you >guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, you're missing a lot of >deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill has an old garage sale sticker >on it. I'm curious, does anyone really have any luck with garage sales. I've been hitting them the past couple weeks, to see what I could come up with. Today I hit over a dozen, what did I find, a Tandy 1000, and a TeleVideo console. The console would have been OK, but I didn't want to pay what they wanted since I don't have a use for it. As for the Tandy, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's a PC clone, which I don't collect. Basically the only place I seem to have any luck is at Goodwill, or a swap meet. Although I did find a guy at the local Flea Market that had the TI/99-4A cartridge I wanted. Problem is, he doesn't deal in computers only console systems and cartridges. Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh@holonet.net (alternate) | Mac Programmer | +----------------------------------+---------------------------+ | For Empire of the Petal Throne, and Traveller Role Playing | | see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 26 17:18:05 1997 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> from "steve" at Jul 26, 97 02:03:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970726/a4a76ada/attachment-0001.ksh From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jul 26 17:16:54 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726231654.0069e034@post.keme.co.uk> At 23:18 26/07/97 +0100, you wrote: >> Id like the Pinout!! > >According to my service manual, the pinout of the 8-pin video socket is : > >1 - Luminance >2 - Ground >3 - Sound >4 - Composite video >5 - Audio Input >6 - Chrominance >7 - N/C >8 - N/C (+5V on some machines, like the C16?) > >Note that the pins are numbered clockwise from the 'gap' in the following >order : 6 1 4 2 5 3 7 with 8 being the central pin. > >-tony > > Thanx Tony. Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Sat Jul 26 17:18:36 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Sound Expander Disk Image In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970726020349.0069e250@post.keme.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970726231836.0069d574@post.keme.co.uk> Anyone out there got a Disk Image of the CBM Sound Expander Software. I have the hardware but need to locate the disk, If i have a .D64 i can put it vack to a real 1541 disk, and hopefully have fun. Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From lwalker at mail.interlog.com Sat Jul 26 18:20:13 1997 From: lwalker at mail.interlog.com (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: bundling mail Message-ID: <199707270253.WAA27658@smtp.interlog.com> I recall seeing an option to bundle msgs in this list. How do I get this? Please bundle ? From coslor at pscosf.peru.edu Sat Jul 26 22:06:06 1997 From: coslor at pscosf.peru.edu (Cord Coslor) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: TRW Swap Meet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hey Marvin: I was wondering if any of your recent Atari acquisitions are for sale. I am especially interested on a good deal on a drive and some software... PLEASE let me know.. CORD //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor@bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*// On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > I went to the TRW Swap Meet today down in Los Angeles and managed to get > a few things. A guy was selling a fairly complete Aquarius that > included the cassette recorder, printer/plotter, expansion chassis, a > 32K expansion unit, some games, and documentation. He was asking $25 > but took $20 for the lot. Also picked up an Epson PX-8 portable and an > NEC 8201 portable (sure hope those numbers are correct as I am going > from memory) for $25 lot. The "best" deal was a guy walking around with > a sign that said "Free Atari". Of course, that got my attention and I > picked the 5 boxes of stuff up. Haven't checked it all out yet, but > there were supposed to be three Atari 400 computers, Three disk drive > units, an 850 interface, a modem, docs, and some other stuff. Saw a guy > offering S-100 cards (mostly memory and HD cards) at $5 each. When I > asked why he was asking so much, he replied they weren't for sale. I > hadn't heard of the manufacturer of those particular cards, and figured > if schematics were available, they might be worth what he was asking. > > I met a friend of mine whom I hadn't seen for about a year. Turns out > he built one of the Altair computers I have and was one of the first > factory reps for Vector Graphic. Apparently among the many people he > called on was a place up around Berkeley with a name like Kentucky Fried > Computers (or something similar) and that was where Northstar Computers > got started. Apparently, he has some of the early SCCS stuff along with > most of the Vector Graphic docs, etc. so with any luck, I'll end up with > that stuff too. > > From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 26 22:08:33 1997 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Fairchild Building References: Message-ID: <199707270308.UAA16014@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Paul E Coad writes: > A bit of history was demolished this week. The Fairchild building > on Fairchild Way here in Mountain View has been completely torn down. OK, a little bit more of that intro I keep putting off, as lead-in to another story. I am what I guess is considered a staff member of the Computer History Association of California, with the title "Assistant Tactical Director." What this means is that I help CHAC with, well, moving stuff. There's a long story about how that came to pass which maybe I will tell some other time, but to steal a note from Uncle Roger it's cheaper than joining the Y/club/whatever. And CHAC has a computer collection and you all know what that means, right? I get to see and touch some moderately k00l iron from time to time. Anyway, CHAC keeps this stuff in storage containers that recently moved from one place to another, and there is some cooperation with another organization, the Perham Foundation, which used to operate a museum of electronics up on the Foothill College campus, because Perham provides the storage containers to CHAC. Perham also has a collection (including computers and some other nifty stuff), and if CHAC's Tactical Director who is also Keeper of the Keys or something for Perham says "Hey Frank, could you give me a hand over here?" I generally don't ask whether "here" is CHAC or Perham territory before answering. OK, that's the end of the intro and lead-in, now on with the show. A couple of months ago those of us on the CHAC staff list got an e-mail from said Tactical Director. Remember Ampex up in Redwood City, CA? They're still there, only not as big, and now they are sandwiched between @Home and Excite or some other hot Internet web-crazed pre-IPO startup that I should probably pretend to be more excited about. Up 'til a couple of years ago Ampex had a museum on-site, celebrating the history of magnetic recording. It's not there anymore. I gather most of the artifacts were packed up and are in storage with no plans to display them. But the building housing the museum was scheduled to be torn down and the museum furnishings were still there. Basically, this meant the cabinets and interior walls -- the museum was built in what used to be Ampex's telephone switch room (you know, telephone switches are a lot smaller now that they aren't crossbar) and they had spent a fair bit of money and effort on hiding that with nice wood-frame walls covered in Fiberglas sound-absorptive material, that not only kept the whole place nice and quiet but formed lots of little nooks and crannies to isolate exhibits from each other and keep perusers in one place from disturbing those in others. Also they had put up a fairly nice ceiling lighting system. Perham got that stuff, but they had to dismantle it before the wrecking-ball showed up. The Tactical Director thought some CHAC folks should get a look so they could understand what was possible in the way of using space. So I went that next weekend and helped pull the walls down for transport. > I can't count the number of times I have driven by the sign and thought > that I should take a picture of it and the building. Well, here is where I get to twist some of y'all's guts a little. Any of you Bay Area folks ever go to the hamfest that used to be held at the Ampex cafeteria every October? The museum was about 30 feet away from there. I missed a great chance (actually a couple of great chances) to see something really wonderful. And now it's Too Late. And those of you wondering what happened to the Ampex 'fest now have some idea. > I guess that is the way things go around here. "Old" buildings are > torn down and replaced with new buildings. Pretty soon there will > be no more of the funky 70's stone buildings left. I think this building was built in the 1950s. It had a lot of that transparent glass and white metal feel to it, at least the cafeteria area did but then that was an area for *people*. The switch room, well, as far as I can tell crossbar switches have no appreciation for any architecture but their own. ... I started writing this the other morning, but put it off because I had to go to work. Never got back to it. Today I ran into Paul and a couple of y'all (You Know Who You Are) at the Computer Recycling Center Saturday sale. When you see some folks stuffing a car with that classiccmp sort of gear you should walk up and say "I bet y'all are on the classiccmp list" and see if you get to put faces with your e-correspondents. -Frank McConnell From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jul 26 22:23:36 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Free Computer Books & Stuff! Message-ID: <33DABF38.2775@oboe.calpoly.edu> Still cleaning the closets. I'll be posting more stuff like this off and on for a while as I sort. All this stuff is free of charge! Of course you pay postage to where you live unless you want to drive to central California. TRS-80 Model 100 Manuals: These are photocopies of the originals but are bound together like real manuals. Service Manual, Owner's Manual and 2 little Quick Reference manuals. Shipping is $2.25 book rate. Apple Lot: Critic's Guide to Software for Apple and Compatible Computers Apple II Super Serial Card Manual Apple II 80-Column Text Card Manual Extended 80-Column Text Card Supplement Apple II The DOS Manual Applesoft II Basic Programming Reference Manual Shipping is $4.25 book rate Commodore Geos Lot: Looks like a set of GEOS 2.0 and 1.2 Manuals for 1.2 and 2.0 Deskpak Plus (six applications for GEOS) Deskpak Manual 25 Blank 5-1/4 disks Shipping is $2.75 book rate From allisonp at world.std.com Sat Jul 26 22:20:39 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Can someone decipher this panic? Message-ID: <199707270320.AA28109@world.std.com> A-B C-D < ---+----------+---------+ < 1 | M7606 =============| < 2 | M7608 =============| < 3 | M3106 === | < 4 | M7516YM== | < ---+----------+---------+ < 5 | M7546====|M7555====| < 6 | < 7 | < 8 | < 9 | < 10 | < 11 | < 12 | < ---+----------+---------+ < 13 | | HDCNCTRS < Slot 13 bottom is not the HD controller, it's the distribution card. There should be a 50pin cable bettween the m9058 and the m7555(rqdx3) card. Pull the m3106 and bump the rest up one with the last one being the m7555. It shouldn't make a difference but at this point you don't need it to boot. This will give you a minimal config for the bus. Also make sure the overt the top cable for the memory is good! A-B C-D ---+----------+---------+ 1 | M7606 =============| 2 | M7608 =============| 3 | M7546 === | 4 | M7555 === | ---+----------+---------+ 5 |===Q->====|==Q->====| 6 |====<-Q===|===<-Q===| 7 |===Q->====|===Q->===| The arrows are added to indicate the qbus grant flow for the bus starting at row 5. Allison From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sat Jul 26 22:37:42 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Commodore Liquidation! Message-ID: <33DAC286.64DD@oboe.calpoly.edu> I have the following Commodore stuff for sale. Discount for more than one item (you save on shipping too) VIC-1541 Drive (2 ea) $5 ea 1541 Drive (2 ea) $5 ea C-64 in orig box w/ps(1 ea) $5 Commodore joysticks (1 pr) $5 Untested C-64 Power Supplies (6 ea) $3 ea Remember to add shipping to what its worth to you. Use the UPS site: UPS Rate Calculator to figure shipping. And be sure to add $1 because those quotes are commercial pick-up rates. Drives and C-64s are about 11 lbs ea. My ZIP is 93405. I also have a pile of cables and stuff that I haven't look through yet. Will throw in whatever cables and manuals I can find that go with each item, no guarantees though. Also, Im pretty sure I ran all these but not positive. I don't have time to test all this stuff. Sold AS-IS. Make me an offer on all or some of it! It's going to go one way or another so if it doesn't sell, I'll give it away for shipping cost. If that doesn't work it shall return to the thrift store from whence it came! From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 26 22:18:00 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: (fwd) Apple /// FS (fwd) Message-ID: Here's an Apple /// for sale. I've seen them go for much cheaper. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: sundeck@ix.netcom.com(N.J.C.) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: Apple /// FS Date: 24 Jul 1997 12:31:32 GMT one Apple /// with Apple /// monitor and 2 nd drive , some software $150 plus shipping sundeck@ix.netcom.com or eflea@atlantic.net -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sat Jul 26 22:34:37 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Power Supplies Message-ID: A while ago I promised two people that I would fetch them some IBM PCjr power supplies if I ever found them. Well, I found some today. I've got two up for grabs. Please e-mail me if you were one of the two people who inquired about one. If you weren't, e-mail me anyway and I will send them to you if the other two guys don't respond. To the two guys whose names I forgot: sorry for forgetting your names! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Sun Jul 27 08:14:55 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:51:33 -0400, Gil Parrish wrote: > For the last two years, I have been working on making a recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM.< >>OK, I'm not afraid to ask the amateur question: Why? >>I'd love to see someone with good programming skills write some >>sophisticated software for the VIC-20, likely requiring at least a 16K >>expander or something. If your project will help lead to that, I'm all >>for it. Well, Gil, I used it as a learning project. When I first got my VIC-20 in 1981/2, I was in junior high school. I programmed mostly in BASIC, and did a little ML. After I graduated, I got involved in too many other things: my fraternity, my wife, a job, the Mac, and then Windows hacking. When I bought my house two years ago, I moved all of my old machines and started playing with them again. So...I wanted to re-learn 6502 ML and the VIC/CBM architecture. I thought that documenting the VIC Kernel (some thing that I had never seen in print) would be a nice project. Also, I thought that it sould be good to have recompilable Kernel code, if I ever needed to recompile it. Documenting the Kernel enables the programmer to understand what's in the "black box." This is why AndrewShulman and Matt Pietrek have made a fortune in books detailing the internals of Windows. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From ard at siva.bris.ac.uk Sun Jul 27 16:08:15 1997 From: ard at siva.bris.ac.uk (PDP11 Hacker .....) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: IBM PCjr Power Supplies Message-ID: <009B7E2F.C0AA5E1A.23@siva.bris.ac.uk> >A while ago I promised two people that I would fetch them some IBM PCjr >power supplies if I ever found them. Well, I found some today. I've got Incidentally, I built a PSU for my PC-jr last week. I used a simple 15V AC transformer, no centre tap or anything like that. The only one I could find was 50VA, which is marginal, but not too bad. The ends of the secondary go to the outside 2 pins of the PC-jr power connector. The central pin goes to mains earth and to nothing on the secondary side at all. Oh, I put a 3.15A fuse in series with the secondary to protect the transformer. It works fine. My PC-jr boots, and all PSU outputs (including the -ve one) are present and correct. > >Sam -tony From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 27 12:23:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Hayes MicroModem II Micro-coupler Message-ID: Was there some bloke on this discussion who was asking for the Hayes micro-coupler the other day? I have an extra one if you still need it. E-mail me. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 27 12:41:11 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems > keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a regular > keyboard but the back has an RCA jack labeled "Video Output", a 40 pin > header labeled "Printer", a pushbutton labeled "Save", a db9 male > connector labeled "Power", two phone jacks labeled "Phone Connect" and > "Wall Connect", and a switch near the phone jacks labeled > "Multiline/Single Line". Anyone have any idea what this thing is? Find the power supply for it, hook it to a TV and boot it up. Sounds like a whole computer! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Sun Jul 27 12:40:09 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Epson PX-8, no power up In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > I just plugged in the Epson PX-8 and the only thing that happens is the > LCD screen turns on, but nothing else. I plugged in a power supply to > charge the battery (and then checked the battery voltage) so that is not > the problem. I also pressed both the outside reset switch with no > response, and then pressed the "master" reset switch in the compartment > on the bottom of the machine, again with no response. When the bottom > was opened, there was space for two ROMs; the center one was empty and > the one to the side had an Epson ROM of some sort installed. There was Marvin, the socket labelled ROM1 should have an Epson ROM in it, and as far as I know it is the O/S ROM. ROM2 socket on mine has Portable WordStar and is not necessary to run the system as far as I know. In fact, I just pulled the ROM on mine and the system still came up (BTW, those ROMs are neat...they have a little plastic bucket that the ROM sits in that makes it easy to pull them out and re-insert them). My battery is worn and does not hold a charge anymore, but it will recharge and operate for a little while (how long I don't know since I never have it on for more than a few minutes) but as soon as I plug in the power supply it works fine. Inside the ROM compartment you will notice an "Initial Reset" button. Have you tried pressing that? There is also a dip switch inside (SW4)...my settings are as follows: 1:ON 2:ON 3:ON 4:ON 5:OFF 6:ON 7:OFF 8:OFF There is a smaller compartment on the bottom near that back of the unit...did you make sure there is a ROM in there? Is it seated correctly? Hope this helps in some small way. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 13:41:40 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Epson PX-8, no power up References: Message-ID: <33DB9664.7DF771DF@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > > > I just plugged in the Epson PX-8 and the only thing that happens is > the > > LCD screen turns on, but nothing else. I plugged in a power supply > to > Marvin, the socket labelled ROM1 should have an Epson ROM in it, and > as > far as I know it is the O/S ROM. ROM2 socket on mine has Portable > WordStar and is not necessary to run the system as far as I know. In > fact, I just pulled the ROM on mine and the system still came up (BTW, > > those ROMs are neat...they have a little plastic bucket that the ROM > sits Thanks for that additional info! ROM1 has the Epson Portable Wordstar ROM installed (after I took a closer look) and that back compartment does have a ROM installed. The switch settings were the same as yours and yes, I did try pushing that "Initial Reset" switch in the front compartment. Now that I know the front ROMs can be pulled and the system will still run, I'll try that and see what happens. Thanks for the info! From danjo at xnet.com Sun Jul 27 14:13:00 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:51:33 -0400, Gil Parrish wrote: > > For the last two years, I have been working on making a > > recompilable version of the VIC-20 Kernel ROM.< > > >> OK, I'm not afraid to ask the amateur question: Why? > >> I'd love to see someone with good programming skills write some > >> sophisticated software for the VIC-20, likely requiring at least a > >> 16K expander or something. If your project will help lead to that, > >> I'm all for it. [snip] > So...I wanted to re-learn 6502 ML and the VIC/CBM architecture. I thought > that documenting the VIC Kernel (some thing that I had never seen in print) > would be a nice project. Also, I thought that it sould be good to have > recompilable Kernel code, if I ever needed to recompile it. Documenting the > Kernel enables the programmer to understand what's in the "black box." > This is why Andrew Shulman and Matt Pietrek have made a fortune in books > detailing the internals of Windows. You are right Richard. It is one thing to read the code and another to modify it. I started on the KIM-1 board (even tho the ROMs are fully documented in the manuals - only to find - they didn't quite match up (it was a change to the good tho 8-) Then I did the same with my VIM-1 board and as it also contains the BASIC ROM - I did it to that one too 8-) Actually, I wrote a 6502 2-pass assembler with Macro extenstions just to play around with it 8-) And as soon as my AIM-65 comes in from that guy I can't mention who sold them all - lock stock and barrel to some one else - and is an Engineer - therefore closer to God that the rest of us. Of course this "pure speculation" and is simply "a lie" and I regret that I have to "insinuate" this statement. The 6502 assembler is written in Perl - and about as fast as a sloth - it still works well and outputs Intel HEX code and my own. I am working on having it also output Motorola 'S' records but haven't done much with it lately. To really S T R E T C H myself, I also wrote a 6502 hardware emulator in Perl that uses Sockets to act like parts of the hardware. This all runs fine under Linux so I have found out the hardware emulator is a little harder to work that I thought. If anybody wants to look at it or get a copy - I could put it up on the FTP site. You will have to get your own copies of the ROMs tho. Unless someone can verify the legal status of the copyrights on the ROMs. I am a little busy setting up Rescue trips to dig much further into THAT moras of mumbo-jumbo. BC From jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com Sun Jul 27 17:53:13 1997 From: jeffh at unix.aardvarkol.com (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Altos III terminal References: Message-ID: <33DBD159.269C@unix.aardvarkol.com> I just picked up an Altos III terminal, with the hopes of eventually using it as CON on my SWTP. The only problem is that I got only the terminal itself, with no keyboard. It only cost me $1, so that doesn't bother me at all. Anyone have an extra Altos keyboard around that would work with this? It seems to power up fine, and according to the status in the upper right corner, is coming up at 9600 bps. Is there an internal ROM setup with this, as I can't find any dip switches on it at all? Also, is this a proprietary terminal, or a fairly standard ASCII terminal? Thanks! Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Sun Jul 27 10:54:22 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Altos III terminal In-Reply-To: <33DBD159.269C@unix.aardvarkol.com> Message-ID: <199707271953.PAA20147@mail.cgocable.net> Jeff, Look for a way to get it into setup mode, usually much like vt100 clone types does... :) Otherwise the dreaded dipswitches! Should have a key and a control key to get you in somewhere on the keyboard. Jason D. > I just picked up an Altos III terminal, with the hopes of eventually > using it as CON on my SWTP. The only problem is that I got only the > terminal itself, with no keyboard. It only cost me $1, so that doesn't > bother me at all. Anyone have an extra Altos keyboard around that would > work with this? It seems to power up fine, and according to the status > in the upper right corner, is coming up at 9600 bps. Is there an > internal ROM setup with this, as I can't find any dip switches on it at > all? Also, is this a proprietary terminal, or a fairly standard ASCII > terminal? Thanks! > > Jeff jeffh@unix.aardvarkol.com > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 15:11:51 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? References: Message-ID: <33DBAB87.C4EF873B@rain.org> Sam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > > > Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems > > keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a > regular > > Find the power supply for it, hook it to a TV and boot it up. Sounds > like a whole computer! Yes, it looks like one to me also, but it uses a power supply I haven't seen before. I'm hoping someone here has run into one before and can identify it. I can always take it apart and figure out the power connections, but it is so much easier and takes a lot less time to find someone who can identify the unit! From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Sun Jul 27 15:53:50 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Freebie Okidata Okimate 10 Printer Message-ID: <33DBB55E.2C9C@oboe.calpoly.edu> You pay UPS for 7 lbs from 93405. Printer only, no interface cable. Was used with C-64. Untested but looks good. Check the UPS Rate Calculator to figure shipping. And be sure to add about $1 because those quotes are commercial pick-up rates. From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 21:57:10 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Aquarius Stuff References: <33DB94CC.AC19B2FC@rain.org> Message-ID: <33DC0A86.8BBA702D@rain.org> I found I sent this email to Sam instead of mailing to the listserver so I am just reposting in case anyone is interested. > Now you did it, I had to go back and look at all the stuff again, darn > > :). Everything below has the Aquarius name and logo on it. The > 4-color > printer turned out to be Radofin Electronics. This is actually what > came in the lot: Prices are from the Crimac, Inc. Aquarius Order form > > before the discount. The only date is on the order form and states > that > 10% can be deducted if mailed by January 31, 1985. The prices are > from > that flyer as obtained from a copy of the original order. The next > flyer from Crimac showed a price increase of about 20%. Pricing is > qualified when the model number on the box did not match the order. > > Mattel Electronics Aquarius > Ser # RH0115319 > Model # 5931 > Missing original box and packaging, but has docs > No Price listed > > Mattel Electronics Data Recorder Ser # RH000151 > Added label - Mattel Electronics, Mfg by Radofin > Model # 4394 > Price - $31.95 for Model # 4394R > > Mattel Electronics Mini Expander Ser # RH0109348 > Model # 4063 > Price - $43.95 for Model # 4063R > > Radofin Electronics 4-Color Printer Ser # RH0500203 > No indication of mfg on printer, only Radofin on box > Missing printer cable > Model # 4615R > Price - $109.00 > > Mattel Electronics Space Speller Cartridge > Only Mattel label on box is "(c) Mattel Electronics, Inc. 1983" > Model # GMN0014 > Price - $19.95 for Model 4682R > > Mattel Electonics FileForm Cartridge > Model # 4177 > Price - $29.95 for Model 4177R > > Radofin Electronics 32K Memory Module > Model # 4217R > Price - $74.95 From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 27 22:04:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Stuff for Sale References: Message-ID: <33DC0C4E.89BC260@rain.org> Just in case anyone here has missed it, boxes of stuff for sale are being posted in comp.os.cpm. The person who published the Z-Letter is apparently divesting himself of a LOT of stuff and anyone looking for manuals, magazines, machines, etc. would be well advised to take a look!!! He is located up in Oregon and has indicated he is going to dumpster the stuff if it is not sold one month after it was first advertised. He also has a web page where he is advertising the stuff, but I don't have the URL handy. I think he posts it though in each of his postings. From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 28 09:16:27 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: <199707281016_MC2-1BBB-1092@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >>The 8-pin cable for the Plus/4 is exactly the same as the 8-pin cable for the (more common) Commodore 64 or 128. << >> Finally, if you want to hack one together, I can provide the pinout.<< >I'd like the Pinout!!< First, the Commodore 8-pin DIN connector is the unusual one; the "Hershman" or something. This means that pins 7 and 8 are not in the same positions as on the common 8-pin DIN connector. (Look at the port to confirm pin placement; I'm not sure the chart below is correct.) One easy solution here is to cut pins 7 and 8 off a common 8-pin connector; they aren't needed for anything. Or as explained below, you can use a common 5-pin DIN connector; but, if you're hooking to a separated color composite monitor, your picture won't be QUITE as sharp. Looking at the port on the back of the computer, OR at the BACK of the DIN plug (the side you'll attach the wires to), the pinout is: 8 7 3 6 1 5 4 2 Connections are: 1 Luminance 2 GRND 3 Audio 4 Color Composite 5 Audio In (not used) 6 Chroma 7 NC 8 NC Hook up pin 3 for audio in all cases. As to video, if you're using a separated color composite monitor, do separate RCA plugs for 1 and 6. If you're using a color composite monitor with the single input, use 4. If you have monochrome, use 1. If you want to use a 5-pin DIN connector with a separated color composite monitor, do separate RCA plugs for pins 1 and 4. From 107765.1161 at compuserve.com Mon Jul 28 09:16:23 1997 From: 107765.1161 at compuserve.com (Gil Parrish) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: <199707281016_MC2-1BBB-1090@compuserve.com> Message text written by INTERNET:classiccmp@u.washington.edu >> >Does anyone have a Commodore Plus/4 video cable for sale or trade?<<< >> (the early models had a 5-pin port) will also work on a Plus/4. In fact, I think most home computer manufacturers (Atari, TI) used 5-pin cables with the composite, sound and ground on the same pins, so you could try one of<< >I have a TI/994a converter box...will this work?< The TI 99/4a doesn't have an internal RF modulator; that's what the box does. So even on a TI, you only need the box (and can only use the box) if you're hooking to a TV. The Plus/4 has an internal RF modulator, so if you want to hook to a TV all you need is an RCA-RCA cable and an ordinary game/TV switch. I *assumed* (and we all know what happens when we "ass u me") that when you said "video cable", you meant a monitor cable. As I said, it's the same as the C64 and some other computers use, so it shouldn't be all that rare. I'm sure anybody could sell you one (including me) for $5 and postage. Gil Parrish 107765.1161@compuserve.com From rcini at msn.com Mon Jul 28 08:42:44 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: VIC-20 Kernel Project Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:13:00 -0500 (CDT), Brett wrote: >>Unless someone can verify the legal status of the copyrights on the ROMs. >>I am a little busy setting up Rescue trips to dig much further into THAT >>moras of mumbo-jumbo. I got my copies of the ROM images off of ftp.funet.fi. It seems that this Finland ftp site has boat loads of Commodore software, including the ROM images to be used for emulators (I used mine for the PC-VIC emulator and as a known-good ROM image to compare my Kernel assemblies with). If my wife really understood what I was doing with the VIC Kernel project, she'd probably say "Why??" too. But, it's really more of saying to myself that I reverse-engineered object-code into a recompilable file and that I learned something than anything else. Since I can't yet really own the source code, I made my own . ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET e-mail: rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 28 09:37:28 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Broken PDP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is interesting. The PDP has been sitting under my bed for awhile, not doing anything. My parents were beginning to catch onto the fact that it doesn't run, and if they figure this out they will likely make me pitch it. So, I got my 486 "Terminal"[1] going and fired up E11. I got the PDP-11 instruction set from the PDP-11 FAQ ("What is the PDP-11 Instruction Set?") and poked 4 bytes at location 1000. The code was the following: 1000 RESET 1002 MOV PC,R1 1004 INC R0 1006 JMP (R1) so it would loop forever, incrementing R0 each time. Just a counter. This ran under E11, but not under the real PDP. Is it broken? It just doesn't run. At all. The code stays in memory, I can see it there after a few attempts, so it's not stomping on core. But R0 never gets incremented. R1 gets set, but never R0. Does it have a special use? This is my first-ever shot at assembler on ANY machine. So I am probably making an obvious mistake. --------------------------- [1] I was told a story in which an MIT hacker broke his leg, and had to stay in the hospital. His friends decided to bring him a terminal and a modem, so he could hack while in bed. The guard at the door stopped them, saying "What's that?" to which the hackers replied "A computer terminal." The guard digs through the list of stuff patients are allowed to have, and sure enough terminals are not on the list. Rules are rules! The hackers leave. They return about 20 minutes later, with the equipment. The guard says "I said you couldn't take that up!" They say "It's not the same thing. This is a TV Typewriter! See, you type, and it shows up on the TV!" The guard checks his list again. TV is on the list, and so is Typewriter. "Okay, take it in!" From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Mon Jul 28 10:06:38 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was talking to one of my friends about old computers, and he asked me what the best thing about a PDP was. I told him, the front-panel lights. And being able to program the machine from the switches. He then suggested that I build a front panel for a PC. Hmm... It's a bad joke, but then again, I do have a PC-XT motherboard to waste... It would be interesting... Is it possible? It would score high on the nerdity scale... From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 28 10:33:41 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? Message-ID: <199707281533.AA08735@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > The 8088 would be difficult to make a hardware style front pannel like the > PDP-8e or 11/70s had but a software front pannel is doable with a spare > parallel port or homebrew IO card. It would have to ahve some software to > dump registers to lights based on switchs, load registers from switches > (at least 16 of them for data/addresses) also other things like single > stepping and single instruction would have to be handled. The other > possibility is an embedded ODT like the 11/03, 11/23 or later q-bus PDP-11s > have. IT allows memory display, changing locations, halting, running from > an address and display/load registers from a terminal(console). I.E Making a new ROM. Well, I do have the IBM PC manual that has the ROM unassembled in it... I thought those panels worked by playing with the lines on the CPU. Sounds like more work than I have time to do now. I do know that E11 lets you pull this off via the paralell port. It would be a neat trick, if I had time to work at it. From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Mon Jul 28 11:16:12 1997 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? Message-ID: <01ILRLOLQSCYBCFALE@cc.usu.edu> > I.E Making a new ROM. Well, I do have the IBM PC manual that has the ROM > unassembled in it... I thought those panels worked by playing with the > lines on the CPU. Sounds like more work than I have time to do now. I do > know that E11 lets you pull this off via the paralell port. It would be a > neat trick, if I had time to work at it. They do work by playing with the lines on the CPU. However, the 8088 (and most microprocessors) do not allow you to get to the internal registers from the bus. It works on the PDP-11 because the registers have a bus address; i.e., you can DMA into registers. This stopped being possible on the microprocessor implementations of the the PDP-11, which is where MicroODT fills in. Roger ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From allisonp at world.std.com Mon Jul 28 13:00:51 1997 From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: 10base2 Message-ID: <199707281800.AA24367@world.std.com> Quick question: 10base2 (cheapernet) thin coax eithernet: What is the minimum cable length? Everything I have has the maximum and I remember there is a minimim. Allison From thedm at sunflower.com Mon Jul 28 13:21:13 1997 From: thedm at sunflower.com (thedm) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: 10base2 Message-ID: <199707281819.NAA02521@challenge.sunflower.com> Minimum is 1 meter, max is 185m 25ohm terminator at each in, 48 drops per segment. ---------- > From: Allison J Parent > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: 10base2 > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 1:00 PM > > Quick question: > > 10base2 (cheapernet) thin coax eithernet: What is the minimum cable length? > Everything I have has the maximum and I remember there is a minimim. > > Allison From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Mon Jul 28 14:27:49 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:26 2005 Subject: Bad Joke. Bad Bad Bad! Front panel for a PC? In-Reply-To: <01ILRLOLQSCYBCFALE@cc.usu.edu> from "Roger Ivie" at Jul 28, 97 10:16:12 am Message-ID: <9707281827.AA01054@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1376 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970728/86f0f702/attachment-0001.ksh From dastar at crl.com Mon Jul 28 13:29:25 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: 10base2 In-Reply-To: <199707281800.AA24367@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Allison J Parent wrote: > Quick question: > > 10base2 (cheapernet) thin coax eithernet: What is the minimum cable length? > Everything I have has the maximum and I remember there is a minimim. I think its a meter. I've successfully used cables of about 3 feet in length with no apparent problems. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From groberts at mitre.org Mon Jul 28 20:06:04 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Some Great deals on AuctionWeb In-Reply-To: <33D85669.2C34@oboe.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970728210604.00876dd0@mail90> At 12:31 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Greg Mast wrote: >I mean, if you guys aren't going to garage sales to buy stuff, >you're missing a lot of deals. Most of the stuff at the Goodwill >has an old garage sale sticker on it. true. i recently found a tv repair shop that seems to be cleaning out his back room - lots of electronic junk piled up outside. in the pile i found an Aquarius with a 25 cent price tag on it, presumably picked up at a yard sale somewhere. Also in the pile were an Atari 800 and an Apple IIe (enhanced) with two disk drives (broken keyboard but it works!). also dozens of old printers in various state of cannibalization and a bunch of EGA monitors. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From groberts at mitre.org Mon Jul 28 20:24:06 1997 From: groberts at mitre.org (Glenn Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: References: <51194C00BD39CF11839000805F385DB2056A8399@RED-65-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19970728212406.00877a80@mail90> i believe it's a "dumb terminal" that uses NTSC video - probably emulates either the H19 or VT100 (or both). i think the "save" button is used in configuring (and saving) terminal options. - glenn At 04:00 PM 12/31/70 +0000, Marvin wrote: >Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems >keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a regular >keyboard but the back has an RCA jack labeled "Video Output", a 40 pin >header labeled "Printer", a pushbutton labeled "Save", a db9 male >connector labeled "Power", two phone jacks labeled "Phone Connect" and >"Wall Connect", and a switch near the phone jacks labeled >"Multiline/Single Line". Anyone have any idea what this thing is? >Thanks. > > > +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts@mitre.org From pcoad at crl.com Tue Jul 29 02:16:23 1997 From: pcoad at crl.com (Paul E Coad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Epson PX-8, no power up In-Reply-To: <33DB9664.7DF771DF@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > > Thanks for that additional info! ROM1 has the Epson Portable Wordstar > ROM installed (after I took a closer look) and that back compartment > does have a ROM installed. The switch settings were the same as yours > and yes, I did try pushing that "Initial Reset" switch in the front > compartment. Now that I know the front ROMs can be pulled and the > system will still run, I'll try that and see what happens. Thanks for > the info! > > Sorry this is coming late in the cycle. Here is what the operations manual says are the steps for doing an initial reset: 1. Plug the AC adapter unit that came with your PX-8 into the adapter jack on the back of the computer. Then insert the prongs into a 12-volt AC outlet. 2. Allow the unit to charge for at least 10 minutes to give the battery enough charge for the system to be reset properly. 2. Unplug the adapter. 4. Look at the bottom of the PX-8, toward the front. There you'll find the square cover to the ROM capsule compartment. Use the finger-operated latch marked Open to remove the cover. 5. Raise the silver flap out of the way. You'll see a small button marked Initial Reset in the corner of the opening. This button has a plastic cap to keep it from being pressed accidentally. 6. Use a ballpoint pen to press the button through the hole in the top of the red cap, and you've reset the PX-8. (It doesn't matter whether the power switch is ON or OFF when you press the initial reset button. Either way, this button completely resets the PX-8.) 7. Replace the ROM capsule cover and turn the PX-8 right side up. Remove the keyboard cover and open the folding screen. I hope this is useful. --pec -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html From kevan at motiv.co.uk Tue Jul 29 04:36:34 1997 From: kevan at motiv.co.uk (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: New mailing list for old electronic calculator collectors. Message-ID: <199707290936.KAA27647@mailgate.motiv.co.uk> Hi all, I have created a mailing list for the discussion of old electronic calculators. To subscribe send a message to: ecalc-request@lists.heydon.org with the single word 'subscribe' in the body of the message. Once you are subscribed you may send submissions to: ecalc@lists.heydon.org Regards -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://staff.motiv.co.uk/~kevan/ From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Tue Jul 29 11:21:38 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: I need a Commodore Plus/4 Video Cable Message-ID: <33DE1892.1E34@oboe.calpoly.edu> To whomever needs that cable, I have one (maybe 2) for a C-64. $3 (postage) and it's yours. Greg From B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com Tue Jul 29 14:31:55 1997 From: B.Lane at PSS.Boeing.com (Lane, Bruce A) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Right idea, wrong item... Message-ID: I hate it when this happens... As it turns out, it's not an RRD40 CD-ROM drive I should be after. According to a manual I just picked up, it's the RRD50. With that in mind... Allison? Tim? Would either of you happen to have a line on a DEC RRD50 drive and controller? And no, Allison, I've not given up on MOPbooting. It would just be a Nice Thing if I didn't have to depend on that every time I needed to do a load. Thanks in advance. ==Bruce 'Why me?' Lane (kyrrin@wizards.net) From rcini at msn.com Tue Jul 29 19:56:34 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: More Altair Scans Message-ID: Hello, all: Just an update on the Altair info that my friend is scanning for me. Below is the list. He is preparing a ZIP disk for me containing the files in the PDF forman. I'll have it in a couple of weeks. He also said that he wants to scan other materials that he has, such as Altair Basic and Extended Basic manuals, the Assembler manual and others, plus the MITS "Computer Notes" as well as material from other manufacturers. I told him that I want it all (like I would really say no?) Holy, cow, what a list... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ==============>>>> The List Altair 8800 Stuff Altair 8800 Operator Manual op_man.pdf 5.49MB Altair Audio Cassette Interface 8800-acr.pdf 2.19MB Altair 4K Static RAM 8800-4mcs.pdf 1.28MB Altair 4 Parallel I/O 8800-4pio.pdf 1.77MB Altair Vector Int. & Real Time Clock 8800-virtc.pdf 1.93MB Altair 8800B Manual All Sections (338 pgs.) 8800b.pdf 26.37MB Front/Index 8800b-i.pdf 515KB Intro (Sect.1) 8800b-1.pdf 558KB Op. Guide (Sect.2) 8800b-2.pdf 6.25MB Theory of Op. (Sect.3) 8800b-3.pdf 8.51MB Troubleshooting(Sect 4) 8800b-4.pdf 3.78MB Assembly (Sect.5 8800b-5.pdf 6.31MB Parts List (App. A) 8800b-a.pdf 438KB Processor Technology 4K Static RAM 4kra.pdf 445KB Processor Technology MotherBoard pt_mb.pdf 373KB Cromemco Bytesaver bytsavr.pdf 1.22MB From scott at saskatoon.com Tue Jul 29 21:04:17 1997 From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: What is this machine? (Pertec) Message-ID: I'm curious if anyone knows what this machine is. (What OS it runs, etc.) It's a Pertec machine with a 68020, Floppy, SCSI?, looks like 4MB RAM, and serial(?) ports on the back. The power supply has a "ST-100" stamped on it (along with a June 1988 date) The backplane itself has ST-98 Rev 003 written on it. The main sockets on the backplane are two 60-pin slots. It claims to be a "3226", according to the plate on the back. That info also says it's of type "P7005". I haven't seen the machine... this is info I've collected from emailling the owner. (I guess this machine is a year too new for this list. I hope you'll forgive me.) thanks ttfn srw From marvin at rain.org Tue Jul 29 23:23:21 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics References: Message-ID: <33DEC1B9.3376582B@rain.org> I have a couple of NNC Electronics computers and am looking for information about NNC Electronics. The first NNC is a System 80 and uses an S-100 bus with an NNC CPU card, California Computer Systems 64K Dynamic Memory card and Floppy Disk Controller, and also has a CompuTime Clock/Calendar board. I haven't opened up the second to see what is inside but they both have 8" floppy drives. Anyone heard of this company or have any info? Thanks. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 30 09:15:18 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics In-Reply-To: <33DEC1B9.3376582B@rain.org> Message-ID: <573443DD5F7D@ifrsys.com> According to the _Microcomputer Buyers Guide_ (c) 1984, Byte books: "NNC offers two systems - the 80 and 80W. Basic features of the model 80 are: Z-80A processor (4MHz); 64kB RAM memory; two RS-232-C serial ports; three 8-bit parallel ports; and two Shugart 801R 8" floppy disks. The 80W offers different storage capability with one 8" floppy disk combined with one 8.4MB Winchester hard disk. The basic Model 80 and Model 80W systems are single-user in operation but can be expanded with additional terminals and printers for up to six users. A maximum of 256kb RAM memory is accomodated." The entry goes on to say that it came with CP/M standard, but you could also get OASIS from Phase One Systems "for multiuser applications". The listed address (for what it's worth) for NNC is: NNC Electronics, 15631 Computer Lane Huntington Beach, CA. 92649 Sounds like a pretty stock CP/M machine, typical of the era . . . Jeff > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:23:21 -0700 > Reply-to: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > From: Marvin > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" > Subject: NNC Electronics > I have a couple of NNC Electronics computers and am looking for > information about NNC Electronics. The first NNC is a System 80 and > uses an S-100 bus with an NNC CPU card, California Computer Systems 64K > Dynamic Memory card and Floppy Disk Controller, and also has a CompuTime > Clock/Calendar board. I haven't opened up the second to see what is > inside but they both have 8" floppy drives. Anyone heard of this > company or have any info? Thanks. > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 30 10:16:34 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics References: <573443DD5F7D@ifrsys.com> Message-ID: <33DF5AD2.96A52956@rain.org> Jeff Kaneko wrote: > According to the _Microcomputer Buyers Guide_ (c) 1984, Byte books: > > "NNC offers two systems - the 80 and 80W. Basic features of the > model 80 are: Z-80A processor (4MHz); 64kB RAM memory; two RS-232-C > serial ports; three 8-bit parallel ports; and two Shugart 801R 8" > floppy disks. The 80W offers different storage capability with one > 8" floppy disk combined with one 8.4MB Winchester hard disk. The > basic Model 80 and Model 80W systems are single-user in operation but > can be expanded with additional terminals and printers for up to six > users. A maximum of 256kb RAM memory is accomodated." Thanks, that information sure helps! BTW, does your "Microcomputer Buyers Guide" have pictures of the computers and can you tell if it is the first edition or were there earlier editions published? It sounds like an excellent resource! From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 30 10:57:05 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics In-Reply-To: <33DEC1B9.3376582B@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Marvin wrote: > I have a couple of NNC Electronics computers and am looking for > information about NNC Electronics. The first NNC is a System 80 and > uses an S-100 bus with an NNC CPU card, California Computer Systems 64K > Dynamic Memory card and Floppy Disk Controller, and also has a CompuTime > Clock/Calendar board. I haven't opened up the second to see what is > inside but they both have 8" floppy drives. Anyone heard of this > company or have any info? Thanks. Haven't heard of NNC, but California Computer Systems (CCS) also made S-100 systems and I have a few of them. CCS made a whole suite of S-100 boards. I also have a CompuTime Clock/Calendar. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From jrice at texoma.net Wed Jul 30 13:23:11 1997 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: DG1 hard drive Message-ID: <33DF868F.2D76F8F5@texoma.net> Sam, do you know what hard drive a Data General One uses? James Rice From steve at kennard.keme.co.uk Wed Jul 30 14:20:26 1997 From: steve at kennard.keme.co.uk (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: CD-TV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19970730202026.00777648@post.keme.co.uk> Hi U lot I Had various Amigs for 6 years, sadly i sold em all off, but now collecting them again. Latest addition CD-TV, i never had one of these and hence need a few Questions answered. When i plug in the mouse, the Remote Control stops working ?? The mouse dont do anything at all ?? Any help Also can i add extra memory to it? and How ?? Aly help PLEASE. Steve Emulator BBS 11,000 Emulator Related Files 01284 760851 Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 30 16:57:28 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? References: Message-ID: <33DFB8C7.382241CD@rain.org> > > On Wed, 31 Dec 1969, Marvin wrote: > > > Among the things I picked up yesterday was a Zenith Data Systems > > keyboard, model ZTX-1-A. The top of the keyboard looks like a > regular Gotta love the date above; I didn't know Zenith Data Systems existed then :). Needless to say, my computer clock was set wrong. Regarding the ZTX-1-A, thanks to those who responded. I just found the description of it in the Summer, 1982 issue of Sextant. Turns out it is a Smart Communications Terminal that was officially announced at the 1982 West Coast Computer Faire. It has its own internal 300 baud modem, and is used with the Zenith ZVM video monitor, and was priced at $695. It does contain an internal battery so the unit can "remember" the names and phone numbers that are input. On a side note, when I opened up the case and saw the battery, it was just starting to corrode and would have eventually ended up ruining the circuit board. So just a reminder to all that if you are going to store computers that have batteries in them, it would be a VERY good idea to remove the batteries. In this case, the battery was soldered onto the board and I just cut the wires and put the battery in a zip-lock bag to be kept with the unit. This way if I ever go to get the unit running again, I will know what the proper battery is. I probably wouldn't remove nicads though unless the unit was going to be stored for an unknown (long) period of time and I suspected the nicads were over about 5 years old. From jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com Wed Jul 30 15:13:23 1997 From: jeff.kaneko at ifrsys.com (Jeff Kaneko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: NNC Electronics In-Reply-To: <33DF5AD2.96A52956@rain.org> Message-ID: <58AC175659C8@ifrsys.com> Marvin, I believe the 1st edition was released in 1981. The one I have is dated 1983. I Also have an 'update' dated May, 1993. I'm not sure if any subsequent updates were published. I have had these books for probly 10 or more years, and I used to take it with me when 'On the hunt'. Oh yes, it does have pictures, although they're not always accurate. It has lots of good information on machines of the era. Jeff P.S. I'd probly commit a murder for a 1st edition };^) (I've never actually seen one, though). > > > According to the _Microcomputer Buyers Guide_ (c) 1983, Byte books: > > > > "NNC offers two systems - the 80 and 80W. Basic features of the > > model 80 are: Z-80A processor (4MHz); 64kB RAM memory; two RS-232-C > > serial ports; three 8-bit parallel ports; and two Shugart 801R 8" > > floppy disks. The 80W offers different storage capability with one > > 8" floppy disk combined with one 8.4MB Winchester hard disk. The > > basic Model 80 and Model 80W systems are single-user in operation but > > can be expanded with additional terminals and printers for up to six > > users. A maximum of 256kb RAM memory is accomodated." > > Thanks, that information sure helps! BTW, does your "Microcomputer > Buyers Guide" have pictures of the computers and can you tell if it is > the first edition or were there earlier editions published? It sounds > like an excellent resource! > > From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 30 13:35:31 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: NiCd and charging problem...Was: Re: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: <33DFB8C7.382241CD@rain.org> Message-ID: <199707302233.SAA28269@mail.cgocable.net> > > On a side note, when I opened up the case and saw the battery, it was > just starting to corrode and would have eventually ended up ruining the > circuit board. So just a reminder to all that if you are going to store > computers that have batteries in them, it would be a VERY good idea to > remove the batteries. In this case, the battery was soldered onto the > board and I just cut the wires and put the battery in a zip-lock bag to > be kept with the unit. This way if I ever go to get the unit running > again, I will know what the proper battery is. I probably wouldn't > remove nicads though unless the unit was going to be stored for an > unknown (long) period of time and I suspected the nicads were over about > 5 years old. Side note about my compaq LTE 386s/20 and seen the problems on old motherboards that has them on board. Lithium seems to be better luck... I think these NiCd's hates to be in discharged state for long time, my working LTE 386s/20's 3 yr old battery shorted in short order in 2 month storage after long active use periodically through 3 years. Yeech. After rebuilding that battery with exact cells, worked in fast charge just once, after that I can't get fast charge from it, now requiring 3 days to fully charge the battery. The new battery unit cost $160 cdn and I will not buy it unless I know the problem is with that rebuilt battery pack's internal circuit board or the internal power supply inside that notebook. The power supply brick is not it, already tried another one. This charging system is weird...the power brick is just that and has one wire more like "hey!, powersupply crank up that current up!" for fast charge mode. Internal power supply is just that: dc to dc convertor with bit of hardware to sense current to battery while charging. The charger is actually INSIDE the battery pack. The intenal power supply uses one SCR, two switching regulators to provide 5v with low current negative v on the side for notebook. The Compaq is not very nice to users who needs bit of more info to assist their repairs.. :( Thanks! Jason D. From marvin at rain.org Wed Jul 30 17:55:53 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: NiCd and charging problem...Was: Re: Zenith ????? References: <199707302233.SAA28269@mail.cgocable.net> Message-ID: <33DFC679.C4D947C0@rain.org> jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > I think these NiCd's hates to be in discharged state for long time, > my working LTE 386s/20's 3 yr old battery shorted in short order in 2 > month storage after long active use periodically through 3 years. > Yeech. After rebuilding that battery with exact cells, worked in fast > charge just once, after that I can't get fast charge from it, now While perhaps a bit off topic, there are ICs available that can recover bad Nicad batteries. Basically they pulse the battery with high current for a brief time (milliseconds), wait, monitor the voltage, and repeat. I've been thinking about building one since it seems like it would be a very good addition to the bench. From dhq at juno.com Wed Jul 30 19:09:02 1997 From: dhq at juno.com (David H Quackenbush) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? References: <199707302233.SAA28269@mail.cgocable.net> <33DFC679.C4D947C0@rain.org> Message-ID: <19970730.200717.7663.4.dhq@juno.com> FYI: ni-cads self discharge so fast that you can almost watch the curve on an O-scope! I use a strobe from a throw-away camera to blast the whiskers off my reluctant ni-cads. I've done this for years and it works most of the time. Try it! DavidQ. On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:55:53 -0700 Marvin writes: >jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > >> I think these NiCd's hates to be in discharged state for long time, >> my working LTE 386s/20's 3 yr old battery shorted in short order in >2 >> month storage after long active use periodically through 3 years. >> Yeech. After rebuilding that battery with exact cells, worked in >fast >> charge just once, after that I can't get fast charge from it, now > >While perhaps a bit off topic, there are ICs available that can >recover >bad Nicad batteries. Basically they pulse the battery with high >current >for a brief time (milliseconds), wait, monitor the voltage, and >repeat. >I've been thinking about building one since it seems like it would be >a >very good addition to the bench. > > > From dastar at crl.com Wed Jul 30 18:57:52 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: (fwd) FS: Commodore 8032 (fwd) Message-ID: Did anyone see this? Sounds like a nice system. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jkeane@j51.com (Joseph Keane) Subject: FS: Commodore 8032 Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 02:07:36 GMT For Sale: Commodore 8032 Computer (80 column screen - 32k memory) Free with computer: 2031 Single Disk Drive - Works except occassionally hangs up. All original manuals. Original owner - kept under dust cover, in great shape, with original boxes, and lots of disks, games, and word processor, with instructions. Great addition to your Commodore collection! Asking $40.00 for everything. Pick up only - Rockland County, New York. E-Mail for more information to: jkeane@j51.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 30 19:21:16 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface Message-ID: Hello, all: I know that this really doesn't fit here, since I only bought this calc yesterday, but I figure that someone here may know... I bought a TI-85 graphing calculator, and it has a 3-wire computer interface. It seems that for $40, you can buy a cable adapter to hook it to a PC's COM port. Software can be gotten from TI's Web site. I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this calc and can shed some light on it. TIA! ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 30 15:28:26 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Zenith ????? In-Reply-To: <19970730.200717.7663.4.dhq@juno.com> Message-ID: <199707310026.UAA13010@mail.cgocable.net> David, You did what I have heard of and discharge rate curve is all overblown unless it's was shorted internally by those whiskers. The normal self-discharge curve is 'bout few percent per week. Bad ones dies less than 2 to 3 days due to whiskers. Those caps from disposable cams is wimpy, works well most of time on AA and AAA, small ones. This type of cells I deal with are large than and heavy duty than skimpy consumer cells stuff. The good job is done with pepsi can sized capacitor or heavy current 5v power supply that will not wimp out at hint of shorts. :) I heard of this trick for blowing out hard to find shorts on circuit boards especially bypass caps using right power supply that will kick out gobs of currents at 5v, POW pop pop pop! Several bad caps blew up like dynamites and easily replaced and the board was returned to service. Really, this is short term solution unless you keep those cells charged all the time, never allowing them to discharge at all. Jason D. > FYI: ni-cads self discharge so fast that you can almost watch the curve > on an O-scope! I use a strobe from a throw-away camera to blast the > whiskers off my reluctant ni-cads. I've done this for years and it works > most of the time. > Try it! DavidQ. > On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:55:53 -0700 Marvin writes: > >jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > From bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu Wed Jul 30 20:22:21 1997 From: bw at booster.bothell.washington.edu (Bill Whitson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: I'm back Message-ID: You may not have noticed ;) but I've been too busy to do anything list-related for the last couple weeks. I'll catch up on the old messages soon. New stuff: 1. After a 2 week linux installation the classiccmp server is on-line (yeah, it was really ugly). Anyway we now have a couple gigs of storage space available. If you want to create anything for the web site I can provide space. The web site is now http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp/ The ftp site is now ftp://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/pub/classiccmp/ 2. I will be taking a week-long vacation in San Luis Obispo, CA in early september. There is a huge computer scrap-yard in the area that I will be checking out. If any of you local to the area would like to join up for that, let me know. Bill Whitson From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Wed Jul 30 17:02:59 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <199707310201.WAA25739@mail.cgocable.net> > Hello, all: > > I know that this really doesn't fit here, since I only bought this calc > yesterday, but I figure that someone here may know... > > I bought a TI-85 graphing calculator, and it has a 3-wire computer interface. > It seems that for $40, you can buy a cable adapter to hook it to a PC's COM > port. Software can be gotten from TI's Web site. > > I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm > guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but > before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this > calc and can shed some light on it. > > TIA! Hi! Sorry to throw wet towel on you...those "dongle" interface kit guess what has little complex board inside. Real sucker really. We did that this year to see if we can do that too. :) Jason D. From rcini at msn.com Wed Jul 30 20:27:39 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? Message-ID: I have a line on some Radio Shack Model 100 stuff in the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina. The guy wants to sell ("no reasonable offer refused") the stuff in a lot, but I only need a few parts of it. Below is the list. If someone wants it (except the ones marked with "*"), let me know. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ==============>>> The List Lots of Model 100 Stuff in Good Condition 2 Model 100's 24K- good condition 1 Portable Disk Drive 2 (*) 1 Disk Video Interface- New Condition 1 Modem Acoustic Cups (*) 1 Radio Shack CTR Tape Recorder (works well) 1 Service Manual and Tech Ref Manual (*) Miscellaneous software and accessories, cables etc. From zmerch at northernway.net Wed Jul 30 23:39:13 1997 From: zmerch at northernway.net (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface Message-ID: <3.0.32.19970731003911.00bac900@mail.northernway.net> Whilst in a self-induced trance, jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca happened to blather: >> I know that this really doesn't fit here, since I only bought this calc >> yesterday, but I figure that someone here may know... >> >> I bought a TI-85 graphing calculator, and it has a 3-wire computer interface. >> It seems that for $40, you can buy a cable adapter to hook it to a PC's COM >> port. Software can be gotten from TI's Web site. >> >> I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm >> guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but >> before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this >> calc and can shed some light on it. >Sorry to throw wet towel on you...those "dongle" interface kit guess >what has little complex board inside. Real sucker really. > >We did that this year to see if we can do that too. :) Hold on there, pardner! This isn't nearly as complex as you think. If the TI is anything like my Casio FX9700G graphic calculator, with the funky 3-wire headphone hookup, you can most likely do it with 1 or 2 chips or even just some diodes and resistors. What it is, is the interface is an *almost* standard RS-232 interface. Speed and all is normal, but it prolly only works on TTL levels. The PDDs (Portable Disk Drives) from Tandy to be used on their old, non-MS-Dos laptops did the same thing... used RS-232 but only at +5V and 0V levels. Use a diode to change the -12V to 0V, and resistors to change the +12V to +5V .. it helps to have a cable to test first for that one, tho. On the Tandy PDDs, the resistor value was 22K Ohms IIRC and any cheap .6V drop diode would do (read: 1N914 -- everybody's buddy) Otherwise, just design a small, self-powered 1488/1489 box to convert the levels, and you're off and running. I was planning on doing this for my Casio, but haven't had the time just yet. (Maybe I can just use my TPDD cable... hooking up the appropriate wires??? Something to think about.) Anyway, I hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch@northernway.net | be your first career choice. From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 31 00:17:47 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: 1st Annual Listserver get together References: Message-ID: <33E01FFB.DB6DB058@rain.org> Bill Whitson wrote: > 2. I will be taking a week-long vacation in San Luis Obispo, CA in > early september. There is a huge computer scrap-yard in the area that > > I will be checking out. If any of you local to the area would like > to join up for that, let me know. Since San Luis Obispo is only about 90 miles north, I'd love to meet you up there and see the Atascadero scrap yard! Hmmm, since San Francisco is only about 3 hours north of San Luis (okay, so I drive fast :) ), why can't the Bay area crowd meet us all down there too. Sounds like the first annual Classic Computer Listserver get-together is now being planned! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 31 00:20:44 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? References: Message-ID: <33E020AC.AC57791E@rain.org> Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > I have a line on some Radio Shack Model 100 stuff in the Research > Triangle > Park area of North Carolina. The guy wants to sell ("no reasonable > offer > refused") the stuff in a lot, but I only need a few parts of it. Below > is the > list. If someone wants it (except the ones marked with "*"), let me > know. Depending on the price, I would be interested in one of the Model 100s. I think I have most of the other stuff except perhaps the service manual. From gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu Thu Jul 31 01:56:37 1997 From: gmast at polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu (Greg Mast) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Some More Stuff on AuctionWeb Message-ID: <33E03725.7D66@oboe.calpoly.edu> A few more items I listed in the auction. Not much interest in the Mac+ logic board, Mac SE supply or the Disk II card so they might be THE deal. Make sure you read the descriptions on the web page before bidding. Apple Imagewriter II Current bid: $31.00 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:22:12 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=lfc15929 Apple Disk II Interface Card Current bid: $2.50 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:46:46 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=scn04925 **Brand New** Macintosh SE Main Logic Board! Current bid: $14.00 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:53:39 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=cxa461 Macintosh SE Power Supply Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 13:58:13 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=kdc0985 Apple Imagewriter I Spare Parts Kit (Factory) Current bid: $11.50 Auction ends on: 08/03/97, 14:18:56 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=dey14024 Macintosh Plus Main Logic Board - New! Bidding starts at: $2.00 Auction ends on: 08/05/97, 20:23:05 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ujt40487 Thanks! Greg From adam at merlin.net.au Thu Jul 31 04:22:37 1997 From: adam at merlin.net.au (Adam Jenkins) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Honeywell Microsystem 6 Message-ID: Hi! I recently picked up one of these beasts at a second-hand store, and managed to assemble her and get her running. However, I have been unable to find out anything about them other than they run the 8086 processor. Can anyone tell me something more? Like what the OS is, when they were made, and what tehir arcitecture was? Honeywell, unsuprisingly, couldn't help, and I found nothing on the web. Thanks heaps, Adam. From ampage at geocities.com Thu Jul 31 07:28:28 1997 From: ampage at geocities.com (Asterisk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? References: Message-ID: <33E084EC.FE0498F9@geocities.com> What's the Disk Video Interface? From jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com Thu Jul 31 07:52:36 1997 From: jruschme at hiway1.exit109.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Jul 31, 97 00:21:16 am Message-ID: <199707311252.IAA26918@hiway1.exit109.com> > I don't want to pay $40 for a DB-9 connector and a 3-wire headphone jack. I'm > guessing that the interface is a software-handshaking 3-wire RS-232 setup, but > before I hook something up to the calc, I wanted to ask if anyone has this > calc and can shed some light on it. Two places to check out: http://www.ticalc.org news:bit.listserv.calc-ti I beleive there are plans floating around for a $5 interface cable. Also, lots of 3rd party apps for the '85. <<>> From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jul 31 08:00:25 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Weekend haul Message-ID: <199707311324.GAA28870@mx4.u.washington.edu> I picked up an absolutely perfect Commodore SX-64 (used 5 times) and a VIC-20 with box and all flyers, etc (used once). I find the included stuff fascinating (almost as much so as the machines themselves) as they recapture the flavor of the era. The SX-64 documentation makes reference to a DX-64. What's that -- 2 drives? Also, the SX-64 refused to read (known good) disks at first, then read fine. Suppose a film had built up on the head, which the disks "scrubbed"? Anyone ever see that happen? Anyone want either? Make an offer. From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jul 31 08:03:32 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: ATARI XE FS Message-ID: <199707311324.GAA28128@mx3.u.washington.edu> I've been offered an Atari XE system (1987, I think). Works, as far as I know. $30 + S/H is wanted. Anyone want it? From gram at cnct.com Thu Jul 31 09:38:43 1997 From: gram at cnct.com (Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Anyone need Model 100 Stuff? In-Reply-To: <33E084EC.FE0498F9@geocities.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Asterisk wrote: > What's the Disk Video Interface? Basically, it's sort of a primitive attempt at a docking station. It's a (rather large) box that connects through a ribbon cable and _very_ fragile connector to the expansion port of a Model 100. It provides a single-sided double-density disk drive (room for one more -- I do not know of any with a second drive installed) and composite video output (RCA jack) to a monitor or channel 3/4 output to a television. This permitted the Model 100 to have a 80x24 or 40x24 display when connected. The box is far larger than it needs to be and is mostly hollow. The DOS is quite sparse, and the disk file directory looks much like the RAM file directory. It added hooks to BASIC for disk file I/O etc. To the best of my knowledge it did not work with and there was no equivalent product for the Olivetti or NEC machines. An innovative concept, and like many of Tandy's most innovative concepts such as the Tandy 2000 and the Microchannel systems, it sank almost without a trace. -- Ward Griffiths "the timid die just like the daring; and if you don't take the plunge then you'll just take the fall" Michael Longcor From jimw at agora.rdrop.com Thu Jul 31 09:24:58 1997 From: jimw at agora.rdrop.com (James Willing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP11/24 CPU switches Message-ID: Header just about says it all. I'm trying to get an 11/24 fired up, and it seems to be somewhat single minded in what device it expects to boot on startup. Right now, its got an RL02 and RX02 on it and does not appear to be lookoing at either of them. So... does anyone have a handy reference to the configuration switches located on the CPU board which will define the boot (and other) options? Thanks! -jim --- jimw@agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 From rcini at msn.com Thu Jul 31 09:27:20 1997 From: rcini at msn.com (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Hacking TI Calculator Interface Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:39:13 -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: >>Use a diode to change the -12V to 0V, and resistors to change the +12V to +5V .. it helps to have a cable to test first for that one, tho. On the Tandy PDDs, the resistor value was 22K Ohms IIRC and any cheap .6V drop diode would do (read: 1N914 -- everybody's buddy)<< It's funny that you said this. I just looked at an RS-232 level shifter circuit on the MIT MiniBoard robotics controller that used a transistor, two LEDs and a handful of resistors to accomplish that, but it needs 5v to operate. Really what I need is a parasitic converter that's powered off of the serial port itself. I've seen this done with a MAX232 or a Dallas 12?? chip. Hmmmm, time to circuit-hunt. ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET e-mail: rcini@msn.com - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 31 10:53:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Weekend haul In-Reply-To: <199707311324.GAA28870@mx4.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > I picked up an absolutely perfect Commodore SX-64 (used 5 times) and a > VIC-20 with box and all flyers, etc (used once). I find the included stuff > fascinating (almost as much so as the machines themselves) as they > recapture the flavor of the era. Yes. I love it when I get something in the original box because having the literature that accompanied it is great for research. A lot of times you can find out about peripherals and other products that were released around this product. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From dastar at crl.com Thu Jul 31 10:55:51 1997 From: dastar at crl.com (Sam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: ATARI XE FS In-Reply-To: <199707311324.GAA28128@mx3.u.washington.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > I've been offered an Atari XE system (1987, I think). Works, as far as I > know. > > $30 + S/H is wanted. Anyone want it? What stuff comes with that for $30? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca Thu Jul 31 13:30:29 1997 From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Info needed: PDP11/24 CPU switches In-Reply-To: from "James Willing" at Jul 31, 97 07:24:58 am Message-ID: <9707311730.AA07166@alph02.triumf.ca> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3769 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19970731/a9267d87/attachment-0001.ksh From FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com Thu Jul 31 12:52:00 1997 From: FAIAZMC at hsd.utc.com (Faiaz, Michael C. HSD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: I'm back Message-ID: It's about time. ---------- From: Bill Whitson To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: I'm back Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 9:22PM You may not have noticed ;) but I've been too busy to do anything list-related for the last couple weeks. I'll catch up on the old messages soon. New stuff: 1. After a 2 week linux installation the classiccmp server is on-line (yeah, it was really ugly). Anyway we now have a couple gigs of storage space available. If you want to create anything for the web site I can provide space. The web site is now http://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/classiccmp/ The ftp site is now ftp://haliotis.bothell.washington.edu/pub/classiccmp/ 2. I will be taking a week-long vacation in San Luis Obispo, CA in early september. There is a huge computer scrap-yard in the area that I will be checking out. If any of you local to the area would like to join up for that, let me know. Bill Whitson From sinasohn at crl.com Thu Jul 31 13:20:13 1997 From: sinasohn at crl.com (Uncle Roger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Free Computer Books & Stuff! Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19970731112215.3a37e3ce@ricochet.net> At 08:23 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote: >TRS-80 Model 100 Manuals: >These are photocopies of the originals but are bound together like real >manuals. Service Manual, Owner's Manual and 2 little Quick Reference >manuals. >Shipping is $2.25 book rate. If these are still available, I'd love to take them off your hands! (I have three m100's and only 1 owner's manual; none of the others.) Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn@crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/ From manney at nwohio.com Thu Jul 31 15:15:46 1997 From: manney at nwohio.com (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: ATARI XE FS Message-ID: <199707312040.NAA23553@mx2.u.washington.edu> Books, keyboard and manuals. ---------- > From: classiccmp@u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: Re: ATARI XE FS > Date: Thursday, July 31, 1997 12:33 PM > > On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, PG Manney wrote: > > > I've been offered an Atari XE system (1987, I think). Works, as far as I > > know. > > > > $30 + S/H is wanted. Anyone want it? > > What stuff comes with that for $30? > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > From dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net Thu Jul 31 17:28:25 1997 From: dseagrav at bsdserver.tek-star.net (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: System/36 Hardware Key Message-ID: If I do buy this System/36, I need to be able to boot it. A key is needed to boot the computer. The key switch has 3 positions: Normal, Locked, and Service. The switch has to be in the Service position to boot. It's currently in the Normal position. There are 3 wires on the back of the keyswitch. One for each position, I think. Which ones would I cross to boot? +------- Wire one. Normal position. / \ +---------- Wire two. Locked position. \ / +------- Wire three. Service position. From danjo at xnet.com Thu Jul 31 21:51:50 1997 From: danjo at xnet.com (Brett) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: Free Computer Books & Stuff! In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970731112215.3a37e3ce@ricochet.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Uncle Roger wrote: > At 08:23 PM 7/26/97 -0700, you wrote: > >TRS-80 Model 100 Manuals: > >These are photocopies of the originals but are bound together like real > >manuals. Service Manual, Owner's Manual and 2 little Quick Reference > >manuals. > >Shipping is $2.25 book rate. > > If these are still available, I'd love to take them off your hands! (I have > three m100's and only 1 owner's manual; none of the others.) Thanks! I have a book - The TRS-80 Model 100 Portable Computer - by David A. Lien. Radio Shack Cat. No. 26-3819 Pub. CompuSoft Publishing C. 1983 Half the book is on Basic programming on the 100 the other half about the 100 and it's software. Anybody who wants it - Let me know. You get to pay shipping anywhere - book rate is cheapest. BC From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 31 22:57:39 1997 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:27 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Info References: Message-ID: <33E15EB3.A6C0BEAD@rain.org> I just had a call from a friend of mine, Brian Mumford, who did some software work for the TRS-80 computers back in the late 70's and early 80's. He had a company called Mumford Micro Systems and besides software, also published at least one book; the one I have is called "Inside Level II, A Programmer's Guiide to the TRS-80 ROMS". I told him I was also collecting historical info on the various computers and what went along with them. He is willing to help however he can. He also turned my on to another guy active with TRS stuff, Dave Lagerquist. Dave took over as editor-in-chief of CLOAD Magazine in July 1980. On top of that, Dave lives here in Santa Barbara, so another part of my project will be compiling a history of CLOAD magazine. So if any of you TRS people have any questions for either Brian or Dave, pass them along. I'll be calling Dave probably next week after Fiesta (a Santa Barbara tradition) is over. From bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu Wed Jul 30 20:10:50 1997 From: bede0005 at gold.tc.umn.edu (Rob Bedeaux) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:28 2005 Subject: Apple Lisa Owners?? Message-ID: <33e17d1166ac005@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Hi Kai:: I don't remeber if I got back to you about the Lisa. If I did, I guess just ignore this post. You had mentioned that you do not have access to the Office system. I have a set of disk images of the Office system as well as the workshop that I can email you if you would like. Also, I have information on removing the serialization if you already have a serialized set you would like to install. Rob From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Jul 31 23:27:07 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:28 2005 Subject: Lodi, CA: Computer Warehouse Clearance... References: <199707310702.AAA09123@lists2.u.washington.edu> <33E17810.2AFE@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <33E1659B.769B@ndirect.co.uk> Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > About a month or so back I reported to you about one of the California > central valley area's used computer stores doing a 'warehouse sale' > every Saturday... Well they have lost their lease on their warehouse > and are looking to clear it all out by the end of August. > > Details: > > The Computer Store running the sale is 'Allen's to Go' and are located > at 13461 Highway 88 in Lokeford, their store phone number is (209) > 727-0477. They wouldn't have an Aplle II (the original) would they. If you happend to pass by again please check for me. Thank you enrico ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ============================================================ visit Brighton: From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jul 31 23:26:27 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:28 2005 Subject: Lodi, CA: Computer Warehouse Clearance... In-Reply-To: <33E17810.2AFE@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <199708010824.EAA14192@mail.cgocable.net> > Details: Nip! The major driving part is how low cost it can be bought? Thanks, applies to these comments I just made. > > What's there: > - Alot of Commodore 64 and PET stuff retired from the Lodi Schools > - Many old IBM and clone cases, power supplies, motherboards, drives > (INCLUDING OLD HARD DRIVES, BRING YOUR LISTS GUYS!) Well, what 'bout the old IDE or ESDI drives? Maxtor LXT213A or any IDE in 200 to 400mb range? If ESDI, it would be above 500mb. What type of motherboards they do have? Cached 386dx-25 from Compuadd or decent generic? > - A small amount of some Mac related Jasmine Drives (external HDs, > syquest, etc.) Syquest 44 or 88, or newer 270mb ones? This one recently stopped made a year or so ago. > -lots of monitors in various states of repair and dis-repair > -Old laser printers, old copiers, old phonographs, a couple microfiche > readers, a couple projectors > -dot-matrix printers, cables, etc. > > The three or so Osbornes are still there as well as all the Apple II+'s > IIe's, IIc's, III's, drives, etc. Jason D. From e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk Thu Jul 31 23:27:07 1997 From: e.tedeschi at ndirect.co.uk (e.tedeschi) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:40 2005 Subject: Lodi, CA: Computer Warehouse Clearance... References: <199707310702.AAA09123@lists2.u.washington.edu> <33E17810.2AFE@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <33E1659B.769B@ndirect.co.uk> Larry Anderson & Diane Hare wrote: > > About a month or so back I reported to you about one of the California > central valley area's used computer stores doing a 'warehouse sale' > every Saturday... Well they have lost their lease on their warehouse > and are looking to clear it all out by the end of August. > > Details: > > The Computer Store running the sale is 'Allen's to Go' and are located > at 13461 Highway 88 in Lokeford, their store phone number is (209) > 727-0477. They wouldn't have an Aplle II (the original) would they. If you happend to pass by again please check for me. Thank you enrico ============================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website ============================================================ visit Brighton: From jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca Thu Jul 31 23:26:27 1997 From: jpero at mail.cgo.wave.ca (jpero@mail.cgo.wave.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:29:42 2005 Subject: Lodi, CA: Computer Warehouse Clearance... In-Reply-To: <33E17810.2AFE@goldrush.com> Message-ID: <199708010824.EAA14192@mail.cgocable.net> > Details: Nip! The major driving part is how low cost it can be bought? Thanks, applies to these comments I just made. > > What's there: > - Alot of Commodore 64 and PET stuff retired from the Lodi Schools > - Many old IBM and clone cases, power supplies, motherboards, drives > (INCLUDING OLD HARD DRIVES, BRING YOUR LISTS GUYS!) Well, what 'bout the old IDE or ESDI drives? Maxtor LXT213A or any IDE in 200 to 400mb range? If ESDI, it would be above 500mb. What type of motherboards they do have? Cached 386dx-25 from Compuadd or decent generic? > - A small amount of some Mac related Jasmine Drives (external HDs, > syquest, etc.) Syquest 44 or 88, or newer 270mb ones? This one recently stopped made a year or so ago. > -lots of monitors in various states of repair and dis-repair > -Old laser printers, old copiers, old phonographs, a couple microfiche > readers, a couple projectors > -dot-matrix printers, cables, etc. > > The three or so Osbornes are still there as well as all the Apple II+'s > IIe's, IIc's, III's, drives, etc. Jason D.